Woman's Hour - Women in the Church of England, Mel Giedroyc, Granny Advice

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby, completes his final official duties today before stepping down. So what’s next for the Church of England? And how are women playing a part in the reform of safeguarding? Nuala McGovern is joined by the BBC’s Religion Editor, Aleem Maqbool. Also joining the conversation is Rowena Pailing, who used to be Vice Dean of Blackburn Cathedral but who resigned over what she calls safeguarding concerns, and Reverend Jenny Penn, who was an important part of the investigation into former priest David Tudor.Pencils at the ready – because comedian and presenter Mel Giedroyc is back with a new ITV gameshow, taking Pictionary from our living rooms to the TV screen. Mel tells Nuala about getting competitive during family games nights, how she’s enjoyed getting older, and why blind optimism is both her best and worst trait.Women in Syria are calling for recognition from the new regime, and asking to be involved in the running of the country. The caretaker government has made several appointments of former al-Qaeda hardliners that have caused concern about what the new leadership intends for women in the country. BBC Chief International Correspondent Lyse Doucet joins Nuala to tell us more.What’s the best advice you’ve ever had? Or even the best you’ve given? Nuala is joined by grandmother-granddaughter pair Christine and Christina, whose video on TikTok of Christine giving Christina advice has been seen by millions of people. They’ll speak about going viral, their special relationship and how they hope their videos help other people. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning, you are very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, Mel Geldroich is with us this morning. She is a presenter that can banish any winter blues that you might have. We want to chat about her new show, but also her blind optimism. She describes it as her but also her blind optimism. She describes it as her best and her worst trait.

A good one to have perhaps at the beginning of the year. You may have seen Demi Moore in the news. She won a Golden Globe for a role in The Substance. We're going to play a little of her interview with Woman's Hour about that film.

It's just from a little while ago. We will hear what she has to say. Also, you may know, listening to the news bulletins, by the end of today, Justin Welby will have relinquished his role as Archbishop of Canterbury. He steps down as many important changes are being debated by the church, including on safeguarding children. That is the issue linked to Mr Welby's resignation. We're going to speak to two women. They are former church leaders who are concerned about how the church has handled safeguarding. We'll also speak to

our religion editor and we'll talk about what church those former church leaders want to see happen now. The BBC's chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette, is going to update us on the situation for women in Syria. It is a month after the fall of the Assad regime. And

also today, you'll meet the 95-year-old grandmother. Her name is Christine. And you'll hear how her advice to her granddaughter, Christina, on how to deal with anxiety went viral. This morning, I want to hear the best advice you have received from your grandmother.

Here's a little of Christine's advice to Christina. Look at yourself in the mirror, wash your face, put your makeup on, put your make-up on, put your clothes on and then say, what must I do next?

Millions have watched that. We want to hear from you. What wisdom stayed with you that was passed on from your gran or nana or nanny or however you may call her? You can text the programme 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note with your lovely voice, 03700 100 444. Do get in touch. But I do want to begin with that story of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. He'll finish his last official duties today before he steps down. You might remember he resigned in November. This was after a report concluded that he,

and I'm quoting, could and should have reported a child abuser associated with the Church of England, John Smith's, abuse of boys and young men. And he should have reported it. It was to police in 2013, that abuse when it took place.

But we're asking, where does this leave the Church of England? And what role might women have in the safeguarding reforms that need to happen going forward? We do have two women who are uniquely placed to discuss this with us. Rowena Paling used to be the Vice Dean of Blackburn Cathedral, but resigned in 2022 over what she called safeguarding concerns. Reverend Jenny Penn retired from the church in 2023, but last year was an important part of a BBC investigation into former Church of England priest David Trudor.

We're going to hear from them both, but first let me turn to my colleague in studio, the BBC's religion editor, Alim Makbul. Good to have you with us. So the significance of today, Alem, how do you see it? Yes, morning, Nuala. Well, it's unprecedented for a leader of the Church of England to resign in this manner, bringing an end to nearly 12 years of being Archbishop of Canterbury. Justin Welby, some could argue, did a relatively good job of holding things together.

A very disparate church in some ways, where domestically there are issues that have led to different factions forming. But also we're talking about the head of an Anglican communion of 85 million people around the world. But ultimately, it was this issue of keeping people safe in the church that led to his resignation. He was found to be personally culpable, but he himself acknowledges that there have been issues throughout his time institutionally that have not been resolved when it comes to that issue. And then when he resigned in November, there was later an investigation last month that led to questions about the man who's going to take charge in an interim capacity. That's the

Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell, because of his failings, as some people see it, while he was Bishop of Chelmsford in dealing with another abuser, one you mentioned there, David Tudor. So it is a tumultuous time, no question about it, at the top of the Church of England. And this is a time where there is a lot at stake in terms of holding things together. So it does have a lot of people concerned. And the victims at the centre of this, a lot of people are talking about the leadership. Do we know how they are, where they are? That is a very good question.

And I think a lot of the reason why there have been questions asked about both the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of York in these cases is that they didn't ask that very question at the beginning. You talked about the case of John Smythe, and we know that Justin Welby knew about the abuse in 2013. The question a lot of people had, and those who reviewed this case, was, you know, why did he not ask? How are those people? Can I meet them? Are they okay? Similarly, in a case that we brought to light in the last month

or so, there are questions even now as to whether Stephen Cottrell, who knew about the allegations against this priest, didn't sort of ask the same questions where are the the victims can i meet them are they okay are they getting what they need some of those victims i and remember we're not just talking about these two cases all of these cases that come to light are re-traumatizing for those who've been through this in many, many other cases. And they feel, you know, I hear a lot of the time that those victims do not feel that they are being listened to, even though the language at the top of the church is that they are at the center of all the decisions that are supposed to be being made.

You mentioned Stephen Cottrell, who'll be taking on part of the Archbishop of Canterbury's duties. But it will be a long time before we know who the next person is. This is Woman's Hour. Is there any chance that it will be a woman leading the Church of England? Well, there has been lots of speculation that there may be women in the frame. There are certainly women in the frame. You need to understand how it all is worked out. This is not a vote by Synod, for example, or churchgoers that leads to the next Archbishop of Canterbury. It's a pretty arcane system, if I may say. It is a 17- member panel that are going to decide who the next Archbishop of Canterbury is. There are suggestions that because two-thirds of that panel need to

come to an agreement as to who the next Archbishop of Canterbury would be that there is potentially a block, a conservative block on that panel. And there are members of that panel who disagree with the ordination of women, never mind women being bishops or archbishops. Those are sincerely held theological views that they say they have, but that's where we are.

We have members of that panel who don't agree with the women's ordination. So I think if I had to hedge my bets, I'd go for a more conservative male choice for Archbishop of Canterbury. But who knows? That's a perfect point to bring in our guest. Salim, you're staying with us. I want to speak to Reverend Jenny Penn and Rowena Paling. Now, Rowena, as I mentioned,

was the Vice Dean of Blackburn Cathedral. Jenny, a retired vicar. Welcome to you both, Jenny. Let me start with you. I mentioned at the top that you were involved in the BBC investigation into David Tudor.

He was a former Church of England priest sacked in October last year after he admitted sexual misconduct. I'm wondering what inspired you to speak out? It can't have been easy. Well, I think it was Rowena's File on 4 programme and she was talking about the situation at Blackburn Cathedral

where there was somebody in post who had a working agreement which said that they shouldn't be working with children, which seems nonsensical for a priest. And I thought to myself, well, this was exactly the same arrangement that David Tudor had for many years when he was working in Chelmsford Diocese. And it just seemed that, you know, things hadn't been dealt with and there was more people out there who were working with these agreements. And on the Today programme this morning, we had the deputy lead for safeguarding on the programme, who said that, Julie Connolly, who said that they'd done some investigation into, you know,

how many of these people there were still working in the Church of England, but it seemed very hazy as to whether they actually knew how many people there are still in post who have this kind of working agreement. Which is a troubling statement. But how do you view the current safeguarding practices within the Church of England? Because we've heard about reforms, what's intended. What are you seeing? What do you want to see? Well, I'd like to see some decisive leadership, really. We have leaders such as Reverend Stephen Cottrell saying that he couldn't do anything about a known abuser who was in post for many years under his watch as Bishop of Cheltenham. So it would be really nice to see some kind of decisive action in place. And we do need a robust safeguarding framework that other institutions

such as schools, hospitals have in place because these kind of churches and schools and hospitals attract people who wish to do harm to vulnerable people and you need to have a robust framework in place to counter that. Because we've been talking about the leadership, Liam was telling us about the Archbishop of York, Stephen Cottrell. He did say in December he's deeply sorry. These are his words, let me quote, deeply sorry we weren't able to take action regarding David Tudor earlier, but that was the situation I inherited. It's extremely disappointing that this story is being reported

as if it was an abuser being ignored or protected. Nothing could be further from the truth, unquote. And he has rejected calls for his resignation, saying he would work to implement independent scrutiny of safeguarding in the Church of England. But you, Jenny, are calling for him to step down too, just so we're completely transparent. Well, I've already said that, you know,

I don't think his position is tenable. And wouldn't it be wonderful if the Church did something, a symbolic action to show that it is listening to victims and it is taking these matters seriously? It's been quite quiet in the church leadership of the Church of England. And it just looks as if, oh, you know, let's let's carry on as normal. But that's really not going to cut it, is it? So hold that thought for a moment at the church of england they said in august when the bbc investigation into david tudor was reported

that they were currently reviewing the disciplinary procedure for members of clergy as recommended by the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse the iicsa and that a review of the risk assessment regulations and guidance is underway so i'm, do you think anyone in the Church of England is listening to you? Well, we're talking about let's have another review, let's have another, more lessons learned and things. It just seems like kicking the can down the road. And we've had an independent safeguarding board for the Church of England, which they dismissed. We've had countless reviews, including ICSA.

What more do you need really to take decisive action? But that comes, if I'm hearing correctly, Jenny, with you, the leadership that is there to start with, step one. Let's bring in Jenny, Jenny, or excuse me, Rowena, welcome to the programme. You resigned over safeguarding concerns, so very much taking that step. How do you see safeguarding practices? What needs to change?

Thanks, Nuala. I totally agree with Jenny that it just doesn't wash when bishops or archbishops say that their hands are tied. That's a learned helplessness, which isn't real. I think it's very easy to hide behind collective responsibility in an institution. You can say it's the church's fault or the church doesn't enable you to do something. But actually, any individual, any institution, the church is no exception, is made up of individuals who need to accept that personal responsibility. But I think in terms of current safeguarding practice, there are two different

strands to this. So one is that there are some very definite practical steps which could be taken to make things better. It's about a change of attitude and ethos so practical steps then um i'd say there are three key ones one is that oversight of safeguarding needs to be taken outside the church it's really clear that the church cannot manage its own safeguarding an external body is also going to be needed to hold the church to account over that and what is let's stop on that one because that's a huge one and I remember this very much with the Catholic Church as well when there was sexual abuse scandals.

For example, what have you come up against when you raise an issue like that, Rowena? Okay, so my personal experience of trying to create positive safeguarding culture in a cathedral wasn't just about dealing with the allegations or responding to those allegations or bringing those to light. It was also about being met by opposition from bishops, from archdeacons on the ground, and by those leading the church's judicial system. And I don't want to get into the

kind of minutiae of the case. No, but it's more that issue of an external body, whether there is an openness to something like that, that you would specifically be calling for. Absolutely. I think only an external body can actually hold the church to account on that. But are people open to it that you've encountered within the church?

There are some people within the church. There are others who would really strongly resist that. But I would say that certainly survivor voices, victims and survivors are calling for that external oversight of safeguarding. And that's really the second area that survivor voices needs to be heard, they need to be at the centre and they need to shape the future of what's happening in safeguarding in the church. It's victims and survivors that this is all about. It's victims and survivors that this is all about. It's not about my experience or Jenny's experience or other clergy experience. It's about

victims and survivors. There's a lot of noise saying that survivors are being listened to. But actually, if you engage with survivors, there's a lot of pain, a lot of anger, a lot of feeling from individuals and groups that actually their voices are not being heard and they need to be. And your third point? And the third point really is that there need to be wholesale changes to the complaints process within the Church of England. Currently there are loopholes which serve ironically both to protect alleged perpetrators but also to punish whistleblowers and I have personal experience of that so the Church of England has no national whistleblowing policy and there's resistance to having a national whistleblowing policy and the rationale for not

having one is apparently that each diocese is different the church can have a national safeguarding policy but not a national whistleblowing policy which strikes me as strange but my personal experience there were lots of things that that happened in Blackburn but one thing that happened was that I was asked to write a safeguarding witness statement as part of a diocesan investigation and the content of that was then released to the subject of the safeguarding witness statement who didn't like its content so they were able to launch a formal complaint against me which is a whole legal process that takes place in it and it lasted for many many months and really what that shows is it's it's not about what happened to me but what it shows is that any priest who makes a a witness statement who tries to raise a safeguarding concern

or responds to a request to give safeguarding information can then face an official complaint and disciplinary action that is still the case today and if i understand correctly then arena you do you feel that will stop people from going forward absolutely absolutely um you also had an interesting term that you use there learnt helplessness do you want to just briefly tell me what you mean by that yes so that's uh that's a term which has been used by um uh external um bodies about uh about the church's behavior and essentially what learned helplessness is is when people in senior positions who do have authority who can make a difference say that actually their hands were tied i understand let me turn back to you elaine yes just to, just to say the Church of England says that some changes are in the pipeline.

They're going to present more proposals in February when the National Assembly, the General Synod, convenes. I think the frustration from a lot of survivor groups is they feel they've heard this before, that the potential changes being suggested don't go far enough. They are tinkering with the existing processes. And really, they want to see some sense of urgency. They really wanted to hear some of those people, you know, when Justin Welby resigned, we're going to bring forward that debate. We're not going to wait for Synod. This is just too urgent. There are too many people who are struggling with trauma right now, that it can't be left that long.

But just to say, for all the grim stories that we have told and extremely brave, courageous victims have come forward to tell us their story, there are always also in these stories some incredible people within the church trying to do the right thing. You're hearing from two of them, but at various levels of the church, there are those who are trying to do the right thing. But as you've just heard from both Jenny Penn and Rowena Paling, they are coming against obstacles. I wonder, back to you, Jenny, for a moment. We see a lot of the time it is women in the church that are speaking out. Why do you think that is? Jenny first.

Well, I don't know. I don't know how much it's got to do with gender. I was just sort of thinking quite often women are on the rotten end of abuse. But as we've seen in many cases, the John Smythe case and the Peter Ball, the allegations against Mike Pilavachi and Andrew Hindley, to mention a few. And I don't have a response from all of those people, but continue.

It's often men who are suffering abuse as well, really. So I'm not sure how much it's got to do with gender. I'd be curious. Thank you, Jenny. Let me turn to Rowena. Thoughts on that? Yes. So I think that it's quite nuanced. There are also men who are really campaigning for positive steps and safeguarding. I had one male colleague who was absolutely committed to good safeguarding practice. Some women have spoken out and been very courageous in that.

We've seen Helen Ann Hartley in particular. Others of the women who've been interviewed don't always necessarily have great safeguarding track records. And we've seen in other aspects of church life that there have been very public failings by women. The post office scandal is a very well-known example of that. But I wonder if women's voices are particularly present within safeguarding, because women are still kept as outsiders from the church. Women still face inequalities. We've heard that there is still opposition to women's ordination in some quarters, that there are posts which women are not eligible for. That's also the same for LGBTQ plus colleagues who face inequalities.

And so I wonder if being in that situation makes women and perhaps those who are LGBTQ plus more alive to inequalities faced by other people, by the inequalities faced by victims and survivors. That's Arita Poehling, used to be the Vice Dean of Blackburn Cathedral. We're also hearing from Reverend Jenny Penn, who retired from the church in 2023, and the BBC's religion editor, Ali Makbul. Thank you for coming in.

Also on what will be a very busy day for you as the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby steps down and that is Bishop Helen Anne Hartley that was just mentioned there as well. We're going to speak more about this next week. I actually have as my guest Rose Hudson Wilkin who has just written her

book. So really interesting lady to hear on some of the aspects particularly that were just brought up by Rowena there in our last few minutes. I want to turn to a former guest, the actor Demi Moore. You might have seen she won a Golden Globe for Best Actress in a Motion Picture

for her role in The Substance. It's her first award for acting. She's been in it quite a few years. And in her acceptance speech, she said she was at a low point before being cast in this role. I thought a few years ago that maybe this was it maybe i was complete maybe i would i've done what i was supposed to do

and as i was at kind of a low point i had this magical bold courageous out of the box absolutely bonkers script come across my desk called The Substance. And the universe told me that you're not done. Well, The Substance is a body horror film is what it's called. Demi spoke to us about it on Woman's Hour last year. If you missed the interview,

I highly recommend listening back on BBC Sounds. I'm going to play you a little bit of the interview now. Here's Demi speaking to Kylie Pentelow about how she related to the themes of the film. What's interesting is I think at each stage of our lives, not just as we get older, I think at each stage we can fall into that compare and despair, fall into those places of,

you know, micro-focusing on all that we find that's wrong, as opposed to stepping back and seeing the whole picture of who we are, the beauty of our uniqueness. And I think on some level, we've all had that moment of looking in the mirror, getting dressed, just wanting to change one little thing. And then we change that one thing. And then it's just it and it snowballs into this thing that is, you know, in this case, it's absolute self-loathing and self-destruction. And it's when we just hyper-focus, if we actually can catch ourselves in the process of that dissection of what, you know, it's always like the idea of, I really look at life as everything is happening for you, not to you. And through that lens of perception and the same is true for what is occurring with the physical body.

Like, yes, I don't have to like it. I can have a preference. I wish that the skin wasn't getting looser or a little crepey or so loosely wrapped. But is it really who I am? Is that what people really love or don't love? Is that what makes me valuable? That's the question we have to ask. And it isn't. The actor Demi Moore, who has just won a Golden Globe for a role in the film The Substance, speaking to Kylie Pentelow there. You can listen back to the whole interview on BBC Sounds.

It's Woman's Hour episode from the 25th of September. I was asking for your advice that you got from your granny and you have responded in droves. Here's a few. Fiona. My nanny was a smart, savvy Irish woman.

Annie Longing was met with give me a pair of needles and I'll knit it for you. So whether it was a bicycle or a new friend I don't know how but it would always

snap me out of any funk that I was in here's another Joe my gran's advice was when moving put your bed up

and make it before you do anything else and when you're exhausted at the end of the day you can go straight to bed

yes very good advice it's a while since I've moved but that one is also good. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It

was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. For those who are competitive and fancy themselves as a bit of an artist, Mel Gedreich has a new show to capitalise on those talents. It is a lot of fun to watch,

but it is funnier when the contestants are rubbish at drawing, as I found out when watching it. Mel is hosting a TV version of the game Pictionary. We know Mel from so many things. Let's see, Great British Bake Off, hanging out with her pal Sue Perkins.

She's been on our screens and radios for 30 years. Recently, suggestively churning butter in the background of the Eurovision Song Contest. Good morning, Mel. Welcome to the Woman's Hour Studio. Can I just say, Nuala, I can't think of a nicer way to

start the year than be in the Woman's Hour studio with your good self. Well, I'm very happy that you're here. It is. It feels like, you know, New Year. We're getting started. It's a little bit grey outside. That's not going to stop us. Exactly. You know, it's a dank day, but you're you're wearing the most incredible. Is it orange? Is it tomato? I think tomato red. Tomato red jumpsuit. And it fills me with a lot of pleasure. It kind of. It's brilliant.

It matches the tomato red woman's hour. Microphone shield. Come on. You're on brand. Think these things through, right? And I want to get to New Year's and blind optimism. You say being a blind optimist is your best and worst trait. I say every year to Sue Perkins, who you mentioned earlier, literally every year that I've known her,

I think this is going to be a really good year for us, even in our bleakest, in the bleak midwinter. I literally said it to her two days ago. I don't know why. I think it's, it kind of, it can blast you through situations, can't it? If you're optimistic, but also it can come crashing down, but I'm prepared to go for the risk. I'll go for optimism over, over kind of thinking that the glass is half empty, I think.

Right. And what does Sue do when you come out with that line again? She has laughed at me for about 38 years because it does come out every year. I think this is going to be a really good year for us. I don't know. It's willing it to be a good year, isn't it? Yes. And a lot of optimism is about willing something to be good. The glass half full. Yeah. It's kind of cool to have a friend for 38 years. Oh, I love it a bit. She's like a sister. I mean, we annoy each other.

You know. Like a sister. Like a sister. But the love is just so... I'm slightly brimming, Nuala. Don't get me brimming on January 6th. I think it's a good time to brim. We're kind of having a little bit of a reflection and a look forward at the same time.

Which, turning to, which I started talking about and then we went off on a tangent. I was watching last night, Pictionary, TV show. So this is, you guess, we've all played it at some point. Teammates, they draw something, you need to guess it.

And you're taking that classic kind of Christmas game, to be quite honest, to television. How's it going? It's really fun. It's ridiculous. We've got this lovely set. Big props to the set designers. It feels like a little living room. You don't feel like you're on telly because the cameras are quite

hidden. And people get so competitive so quickly. You know that thing if you're playing a game at Christmas? Yeah. Suddenly, fun goes out of the window, doesn't it? Very, very quickly. My sister actually refuses to play Articulate with me now

because I got so aggressive a few years ago. This must be a bit of a dream. What I found when I was watching it, and when I was watching, one of the teams were, let's say a little bit rubbish to begin with, but then you start rooting for them. And, you know, at times it can turn around quite quickly. Absolutely. But what I found really interesting is when people are given a word, how they decide to try and illustrate that. Yes.

People go quite lateral. People go quite weird and off beam. And I love the thing about Pictionary, which is when you're the drawer, you're so convinced you can see it. Do you know what I mean? You're so convinced that this is the best kind of way of showing this word, even if it is rubbish.

I was enjoying watching you watching them. Oh, man. It's frustrating. It can be really frustrating. And I'm not allowed to say anything really. I'm allowed to give little, you know, encouragements and stuff like that, but I can't give anything away.

I've got to be totally non-partisan. But if you're not a good... Listen, you don't have to be a great artist. You've got to be a communicator, I suppose. got to be fast you've got to you've got 15 seconds speed is of the essence but you can also be a really good guesser so sometimes we had rubbish drawers on but then we'd have brilliant guesses you know yeah so we had so much fun we did seven shows in one day, familiar at one point. Yes, and I thought,

I looked at the schedule and I thought, I just, I'm 56. How am I going to do seven shows? But it is so fun. I hope that it's a good sort of easy, comfortable view. Now, I really enjoy it. And then we started shouting at the television,

which is exactly what you wanted. So we are there. I'm thinking about the optimism that we started with as well. The industry you're in, be it game shows or churning butter on the Eurovision, whatever it might be, the industry you're in is a fickle one, to say the least. And you have come up against that in the past. I was reading where it affected the home where you lived. Can you tell me about that? And did the optimism last yeah so um it was an interesting

time Nuala it was um so Sue and I we were doing an advert we had a lovely gig doing an advert um for a baked good which was like a premonition. Who knew that was going to happen? And I had two very small children at the time. Work was a bit lean apart from the advert. And I thought, it's brilliant. We've got the advert. We'll be fine. This will last for years.

And then the letter came through the door after we'd done, I think, two or three. We'd bought a house, not me and Sue, although she is my comedy wife that that could be a reality show I'm just telling you right now you can take that one for free from me we had my husband and I had bought a house which was too expensive for us but I thought I've got the ad yeah it's fine life's gonna be great and then, yes, the work just totally disappeared. The ad stopped happening. And yeah, we were left slightly high and dry, which wasn't great. I mean, I have to say we were very lucky. We have very supportive families. You know, we were never going to be out on the streets, but losing your house is not much fun with two children under three um but it was okay it was all right we got through um we cut our cloth that would be the advice that my grandmother would have

given me yeah interesting cut your cloth live within your means we bought a house that we couldn't afford the bank were just phoning every day saying borrow more money borrow more money it was frightening, actually. And when you, I mean, I would never do that again. That's what I'm just wondering, what it leaves you with afterwards. Yeah, I was more, I like the word sage. I love that word. I like to think it was a bit more sage.

And also, I have to say, Nuala, it was good because I got a novel out of it. My first novel that I wrote a few years ago was all about it. So listen, it all turned out well. There's that optimism again. Ludicrous. Annoying. Not yet. Sue Perkins might say differently. She'll be on the phone saying, get her off. Get her off the air. And he plans to work with Sue again. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

We had a lovely time, actually, before Christmas. We went out to New York together for a week, which was really lovely. We were in a workshop, which was so much fun. You two and others? Just the two of us and some very lovely writers. And it's super, super, super early days, but there may be something that comes out of that. Probably not this year. It's going to be a good year for us.

Definitely. I'm going to say 26, possibly. Who knows? And we're doing, I hope, I never want to jinx these things. I'm touching all the wood in your studio that I can find, but we may be doing something together at the end of the year as well. Fun.

So happy days. Come on, to work with your best bud. I know, that's really quite something. And you have done it, of course, for so long. But it was really fun to see you solo on Pictionary as well. But I want to talk about somewhere that our listeners may also have heard your voice.

It's right here on Radio 4. But the appeal for Radio 4 on behalf of the charity Why Me? You're a patron there and it's a charity about delivering restorative justice. Yes. Why are you attaching your voice and name? So, and I have my TV job to thank for this. It was a few years ago and I interviewed an amazing guy called Sir Charles Pollard who's the sort of godfather of restorative justice in this country an amazing guy I spent two hours with him and

maybe we should explain what it is actually yes absolutely so restorative justice often called RJ is seeing justice in a different light it's not so much justice as retribution, but justice as something which can restore. So Why Me is the charity that I'm the patron of, and it aims to, on behalf of victims, bring them into a meeting, a restorative justice meeting with the perpetrator of the crime that has been committed against them. It's incredibly powerful. And it, I like to think that it is on the rise. I mean, you know, our criminal justice system is creaking. Our prisons are overflowing. We know that. And with restorative justice, whereby the victim and the perpetrator can meet face to face. If both parties want that.

If both parties want that. It's a subtle thing. It's a powerful thing. And, you know, the statistics are proven that perpetrators who've been through the restorative justice process, that the risk of their reoffending is much, much less. So actually, I believe it's something that the government should really be investing in. Because down the line, I mean, yeah, it's expensive to bring two people together in that way. But further down the line, it has great, great benefits. So I'm a huge believer. You definitely are an optimist.

I know. Mel Gedroych. It's been really interesting to hear it though in all the various parts of your lives and I suppose with this latest venture as well.

Wish you all the best. Thank you, Nuala. It's so lovely to be here. The new series, Pictionary, starts today. It's on ITV1 and ITVX. Every Monday. Every Monday.

I think this year is going to be a great year. It's going to be a great year for us, Nuala. Thanks so much for coming in. Right, some granny advice. My nan told me I should always tuck my vest

into my knickers so I don't catch a chill. And it works. Yes, says Mel. Thumbs up. That's Pauline in Petworth. Well, you know, it's a bit chilly

in the next couple of days, so make sure you tuck your vest into your knickers. My grandmother lived through the Great Depression in the States. Her mantra was always, use it up, wear it out, make do or do without. Well, I've carried this with me for decades. Even in good times, it serves as a reminder to

appreciate and make the most of what I have. Thanks, Mimi. Some more. 84844, do get in touch. Now I want to turn next however to Syria. Women there are calling for recognition from the new regime and asking to be involved in the running of the country and to have their say. It has been almost a month, it was the 8th of November when there was the fall of the Assad regime and the new rebel leader of Syria, Ahmed Hussein al-Sharaa, also known as al-Jilani. He has made several appointments of former al-Qaeda hardliners that have caused concern for some about what the new leadership intends for women in the country. The BBC's chief international correspondent, Lise Doucette, joins me now.

Great to have you with us, Lise, on Woman's Hour. Let's talk about this. The fear is that some Syrian women are expressing as certain al-Qaeda hardliners, as they have described them, have been appointed to senior roles. What do we know? Good morning, Nuala. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. And I was hoping that we could continue with some of that hope and the optimism of a great year ahead that many women in Syria. But let's also not strike a completely pessimistic note. As you noted, it's now just shy of one month since this extraordinary sudden

collapse of a more than 50-year-old dictatorship in Syria of the Assad family. Syrians are still celebrating, still in some ways in disbelief that this has happened. And so it is still early days as a new order is being formed. You mentioned some of the worrying signs, the fact that the new, what's called the caretaker government, which is supposed to be in power until March of this year, it's headed by a man who's non-de guerre. His military name was Abu Muhammad al-Jilani. Now he's taken back his civilian name, Ahmad al-Sharra. He's not wearing military fatigues.

He's wearing civilian clothing, often Western suit and a tie, as there's a parade of officials from East and West coming to see him. And he has spoken about the importance of women's rights and women and all sectors of society in Syria will have a new place in Syria. But his first appointments, his new government is dominated by Islamists from his own group. Its acronym is HTS, Hayat al-Hasham. And yes, they include former commanders who were, like him, affiliated with Al-Qaeda and Islamic State. He too was, but he says that he has, for many years now, that he put his past behind him. But there's also been the appointment of the first female central governor of the bank,

of the central bank in 70 years. There's also been the appointment of a women, a minister for women's affairs. And really importantly, Nula, what there has also been is every time there is a step, which seems to be already in this first month a step backwards women have taken to the streets in cities across Syria there have been sit-ins there have been protests there have been meetings and women are making it clear in their various groups and from different walks of life that they're not going to take this sitting down they're going to fight for their place in the new Syria and they they understand they're going to have to because the risks are there. Yeah, it's such an interesting one because

of course we've seen many protests, for example, if we talk about Afghanistan and that is a completely different country with a completely different setup. But when one regime falls, it does create a vacuum for many things that can come

to a head, some that may not be wanted by certain sectors of the society. Do they have the support, do you think, internationally, Syrian women? Well, let's just focus first on, let's take some concrete examples. The new spokesperson of this transitional authority made some comments that caused a huge wave of protest. He said, well, it's too early to discuss women's participation, saying that women's responsibilities and tasks will be given to her according to what he described as her physical abilities.

He said women have their special physical and mental nature, which fits some tasks. And I'm quoting, she can't, for example, use weapons, or be in a position that doesn't fit her nature. Well, there were so many protests, then he then met the women's groups, and then he apologized. And we've seen this time and again, and for example, I'll give you another example of how women are fighting back. It's almost Nula in these early days. They're fighting ministry by ministry, house by house. There was a house, a beautiful old Damascene house with a courtyard that was sort of a group, a gathering place for the artistic community, for civil society. And one of the gunmen in the new order came in and just said, I'm taking it over.

And they all came together, Syrian women, Syrian men, Syrians from exile, Syrians who've lived through all of these years. They fought and they got the house back and they cheered for this victory. So they are fighting on their own. But yes, they need the support of the international community. And it's been quite, it's quite extraordinary just watching this parade of people going in to see the guy who until recently had a 10 million US dollar bounty on his head on the US wanted list. The Americans have now lifted it, lifted this warrant from this personal bounty on Ahmed al-Shara's head. But his group is still on the terrorism list, not just of Western governments, but also of the United Nations. And Western governments are making it clear that sanctions that he desperately wants to be lifted, all Syrians want to be lifted, can't be until there is clear signs that this will be an inclusive government, not dominated by Islamists as it is now,

that it will include all of the, they use the word minorities, although Syrians don't like the word minorities. They're part of the Syrian fabric, and it have been for centuries. And that they will also respect women's rights. And this is, Nula, almost word for word, the narrative that Western governments use, and the UN uses to this day with the Taliban, who, of course, have not been listening. But what we get the sense from Ahmed al-Shara, he's described as a pragmatist. The Americans came out of their meeting and said, he listens, he seems to have moderated his views. He is saying all the right things. And everyone is watching now what he will do. And there is a sense in which perhaps he now has changed. It is not simply him understanding what he has to say, the sweet talk, if you like,

but he also understands what has to be done in a country like Syria. It's a country which is, writ large, is different from the very conservative province of Idlib in the northwest, where his group had been ruling for the past seven years or so. But it's the question of, we're going to get back to those appointments you started off by asking about the Al-Qaeda people, the people who've been linked to Al-Qaeda, the more Islamist, the more ultra-conservative members of the people who fought with him for many years that he owes something to that will be controlling whether it's a house or a street

or a province or a ministry whether they can be convinced. It is going to be that is why women are being so vigilant. Really interesting. Lise Doucette, thank you so much for speaking to us. Lise is of course the BBC the BBC's chief international correspondent. Syria, one of the stories that we are keeping across this morning.

84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, we often hear from younger women that they want advice from older women, women that have been through life, the stuff that they've learned, maybe going through pregnancy or asking for a raise at work or what they should focus their time and energy on in their lives. Well, my next two guests are a duo. Christina, 30-year-old artist, has been posting videos of her granny. You might have come across them. Her granny is 95-year-old former teacher Christine. And Christine has been giving advice and sharing her experiences of growing up. Now, one video went viral late last

year. It's now sitting at 3.6 million views. I have a little clip of it here for you. This is Christine, Granny Christine, telling Christina, her granddaughter, to take it one step at a time when it comes to dealing with mental health. Look at yourself in the mirror, wash your face, put your makeup on, put your clothes on, and then say, what must I do next? I must have a little breakfast, or I must have a cup of tea, and then I will start to do this little thing that needs doing. You're not going to worry about anything else but that at that moment. And then when you've done that, you think, I'm dressed. I've got some makeup on. I've done that task. It's taken me two hours or three hours.

I need a cup of tea in the cafe, in the gallery. I'll go there and have it. That's my reward. And I deserve it. I deserve it. That's my reward. And I deserve it. I deserve it. Lovely advice there from Granny Christine to her granddaughter, Christina. They both join us now. You're both so welcome to Woman's Hour. Let me begin with you, Christina. So that video that we just heard, Christine giving you that advice.

What do you remember of that time? Well, I mean, when it was initially recorded, it was I was in quite a difficult time of my life because it's kind of just after COVID and I'd moved in with my grandma. So I was kind of, I guess, kind of venting to her a bit about where I was at and hoping for some of her wisdom and advice. And often I record her advice just so I can look back on in future and then last summer I rediscovered the video on my phone and I thought well it's such a nice message that maybe so one of my followers might like to hear it or it might help someone so put it on my TikTok and I thought you know maybe you could get a hundred views or something

the next morning to hundreds of thousands of views and hundreds of messages. And it's kind of quite overwhelming. And it's just carried on ever since. And I can hear Christine laughing beside you. Welcome, Christine. I mean, what about that? Let's start first with the advice. It's very practical. Just do take one step at a time. Tell me a little bit about why you gave that such advice to Christina. I suppose in life, when you've had a long life, you've met a number of situations, some of them happy, some of them sad, and you just have to take that next step that you need to take to be of help to other people

or just to develop yourself. I loved the simplicity of it, that you just take one step at a time, things that are manageable, I guess, when you're perhaps not feeling so great. Well, I think it's the only way you get through things, actually. If you're facing something that's been pretty disastrous in your life or if you're facing something

which is going to be very, very exciting, it is one step at a time. You don't have to be put off by external matters. You have to stick to the path that you're on. I particularly like having a cup of tea as a reward in the gallery as well. But what did you think, Christine, when you saw how popular it became? I mentioned there 3.6 million views. Well, I just was surprised. I thought, my goodness, it's just such simple advice that one is giving, and yet it's so needed. And then I thought of some of the places that people go to for advice, and perhaps they're receiving advice that's not simple and that sounds difficult to follow.

And I think what I said was so simple and anybody could follow it. And there was one response that I was so pleased with. Somebody said, that was just what I needed to hear. And I thought, gosh, it is strange that just saying, put one foot in front of the other and do the next thing, is what people need to know. Perhaps they've had too much advice of different kinds i don't know but anyway there it was did you did you follow the advice christina yeah i've been following it ever since

and it's worked well i'm getting there yeah but i i think that's what your granny is putting across though that it's like a process and it's one step at a time. It's not something there's no kind of immediate solution to fix everything. But you are an artist. I understand you mentioned there briefly that you moved in with your granny during the pandemic. How is that living with your grandmother? I mean, I've always been so close to my gran she's essentially my second parent so my mum and my gran brought me up so like two lovely women that raised me and yeah so I've lived with her on and off throughout my life

but this is probably the longest period I've been living with her and we've kind of muddled along together. In terms of my art practice, it's kind of tricky because obviously it's ideal to be in London, but I think I'm making it work as well as I can here. I see another, there's lots of people, you know, messaging in with their grandmother's advice. Here's one. My grandma told me not to wear my best coat when going to the market as I would never get a bargain. And let me come back to you, Christine, because you grew up right during World War Two, which and you were a teacher as well. I'm just thinking of all this experience that you've had. And do you think going through the war, for example, has impacted how you see the world? Absolutely. Because both my parents

were in what was called reserved occupations. When I was 10, the Admiralty Department for Revitaling Ships moved to Accrington where I lived and people in Accrington manned a lot of clerical jobs there. My mother was one but I found that she was going to have to do this when I was 11. So the first bit of the war, I had a mother at home. For the remainder of the war, I had a mother who was working, as hours were required, in the Admiralty Revitling Department, which was stationed at Accrington. And my father was working on railways, so he was fully occupied

and there was no real timetable of their work. So I spent a lot of time alone. And basically, I kept house from the time I was about 11. So that's a lot of responsibility for a young child. I don't think we would give that. Some children do have to go through it, to be fair. But Manny would probably try and avoid giving younger children responsibility. I think that's a great pity because I think children,

when I was growing up, really had quite a lot of responsibility. We had much more freedom of movement. We had a lot of responsibility for our own activities because you go out to play and you'd be told, come back half past seven. Right. And you had to make your own society and you had to occupy yourself and build a life really so a lot of autonomy and freedom and responsibility maybe too much at times but it's an interesting perspective christina isn't it yeah definitely i mean i think when i was a child i kind of had the tail end of that almost. Because I remember playing outside quite a lot by myself.

And it's like now I don't know if I'd feel that would be safe to let a child do that with how things are now. And even myself, I don't always feel safe going out by myself. So I think things have changed a lot in that way and it can be quite difficult sometimes. Do you understand how people find it difficult now, Christine? Yes, I think it's very sad that there isn't that freedom, feeling of movement and going about. I can remember when I was about five or six being sent to the shop and you were in a community that was pedestrian. There were very few cars. And so you were moving in a community where everybody knew you and you could be sent to the shop because at the shop, most people knew you.

I understand a different time. It's fascinating to listen to both of you Christine thank you for joining us and her granddaughter Christina thanks to all of you getting in touch with advice that your granny

gave you you'll find Christine's video up online but here's one from Chloe she says my nana used to say

a little bit of what you fancy does you good meaning have some cake if you want but not all of it treat yourself within reason.

Something I always try to remember to do. Good way to start the year. Lucy Lawless tomorrow. Remember, Xena, warrior princess. She has a new film out, Never Look Away. We'll talk about that tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

I'm Joanna Page. I'm Natalie Cassidy. And we want to tell you all about our podcast Off the Tele it's basically both of us chatting about what we've been up to

on and off screen it's just brilliant who and what we just can't resist with plenty of behind the scenes stories and gossip yeah

cracking we always say cracking now really everything's cracking is definitely the place for what's occurring oh Jo you do that so well Off the Tele listen to all new episodes on BBC Sounds I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.