Woman's Hour - Women leaders and Covid-19, Lionel Shriver, Florence Nightingale’s bicentenary

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

The leaders of the USA, Brazil, Russia, Spain, Italy and the UK have come in for some criticism over their handling of the Coronavirus pandemic. They all have one thing in common, and it has been widely remarked on – they’re men. From Jacinda Ardern to Angela Merkel, women leaders across the world seem to be coping with Covid-19 better. But is it true? And, what might explain why? Jenni talks to Rosie Campbell, Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership and Professor of Politics at King’s College London and Clare Wenham, Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science.Could your relationship survive one partner’s endurance sport obsession? In her new novel The Motion of the Body Through Space, Lionel Shriver explores the impact of extreme exercise on the ageing body and on one marriage in particular. Since taking aim at the whole concept of cultural appropriation in a speech at the Melbourne Writers’ Festival in 2016, Shriver has become well known for her criticism of identity politics. How does that manifest in the book? She joins Jenni to discuss.Over the last couple of weeks we’ve been hearing from women around the world who are making face masks at home for family, health-workers and in this case child refugees in camps in Greece. Rabha Nasr who lives in Greece now spoke to Maria Margaronis, who asked her to choose some music she listens to when she sews.Next week marks 200 years since the birth of Florence Nightingale, the founder of modern nursing. We discuss her life, and legacy and impact on nursing in 2020. Anne-Marie Rafferty, Professor of Nursing Policy, Florence Nightingale Faculty of Nursery, Midwifery and Palliative Care at King’s College, London joins Jenni along with Greta Westwood, CEO of the Florence Nightingale Foundation.Presented by Jenni Murray Produced by Sarah Crawley Interviewed guest: Rosie Campbell Interviewed guest: Clare Wenham Interviewed guest: Lionel Shriver Interviewed guest: Rabha Nasr Interviewed guest: Anne-Marie Rafferty Interviewed guest: Greta Westwood Reporter: Maria Margaronis

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday 7th May 2020. In today's programme, Lionel Shriver and her new novel, The Motion of the Body Through Space. What happens when a man in his 60s becomes obsessed with endurance sport and his wife, who's always been a keen runner, finds her knees are letting her down? It's 200 years since Florence Nightingale was born. What's the contribution to modern nursing practice of the Lady with the Lamp? And today's mask maker helping family, friends and refugees with protective face coverings is Rabha Nasser, who lives in Greece.

Now, some three months since the COVID-19 pandemic began to sweep across the world, the criticisms of the way it's been handled are beginning to surface. The leaders of the USA, Brazil, Russia, Spain, Italy and the UK have all come in for censure. They have one thing in common and it's been remarked upon widely. They're all men. Meanwhile, Forbes magazine named some of the world's most effective leaders during the crisis. Jacinda Ardern, Angela Merkel, Tsai Ing-wen, and no fewer than four Scandinavians, Meta Fredricksen, Katrin Jakobsdottir, Sanna Marin, and Erna Solberg. And they are all women.

You may remember that it was suggested the 2008 financial disaster may have been handled better if Lehman Brothers had been Lehman Sisters. But is it true that women cope better in a crisis than men? and may have been handled better if Lehman Brothers had been Lehman Sisters. But is it true that women cope better in a crisis than men? Well, Claire Wenham is Assistant Professor in Global Health Policy at the London School of Economics and Political Science. Rosie Campbell is Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership and Professor of Politics at King's College London. Rosie, Jacinda Ardern has been really singled out for particular praise. How typical is the way she operates of women's

leadership? Well, there isn't one uniform way that women leaders lead, but there are gendered leadership styles that women are more likely to adopt than men and she obviously has adopted a very collaborative, quite humble leadership style where she's very willing to listen to advice, she reaches out, she has reached out to children for example and it's not that men can't adopt those kind of styles but a fewer of them do. How significant, Claire, would you say it is that these women have come to prominence during a global health crisis? So I think it's really important. And I think, you know, as you've highlighted, all these women leaders have been very successful at managing the outbreak so far. But I also think

we can't overstate this quite yet. I mean, it's still only small numbers of countries globally. I mean, it's, what, 15 female leaders worldwide at the moment. And so whilst they have, I think there's a lot of other competing factors which might explain why they have been successful simply beyond their gender. What are they? Well, so they've been very simply beyond their gender.

What are they? Well, so they've been very transparent in how they've moved. They have been very decisive and moved quickly. So they, you know, Jacinda Ardern and Angela Merkel both kind of, you know, locked down quickly. They, you know, have been, in my perspective, they've been focusing on people's lives more so than maybe the economy that we're seeing certainly be the focus of efforts in the United States, in Brazil and to a certain extent in the UK. And so I think they're just they're thinking differently or at least prioritising different things. But whether that is because they are women, I don't think we can say conclusively yet. To what extent is Angela Merkel particularly well placed because she's a scientist? So I think that's really key and I think we saw her press conference a couple of weeks ago

where she was really she really was explaining how how important the reproductive number was and a simple degree of change, what that can mean in terms of infection and deaths. And I think that's really vital. But I think that also shows you something about different women leaders, right? She's been demonstrated to be effective because of her scientific understanding, which is very different to Jacinda Ardern that we were hearing about previously and that being much more about humility and transparency and getting on Facebook live and talking to people as everyday people so I'm not sure there's a consistent trend amongst these women which is also important to note.

Rosie I mentioned that four Scandinavian women have been praised. Why? Why are they considered to have done really well? Well, they've really focused on, as previously has been said, on lives and on reaching out to the population and communicating really effectively with the population and putting forward quite a nuanced view rather than you know a very simple solution trying to explain and communicate what's happening but then if we look at sweden led by a man stefan luffen took a completely different approach no lockdown why has he generated a huge global interest well i think i think the issue with that is it's this trade-off between freedom liberty um health

and security and the economy and obviously that's run very counter to the approach that puts saving lives and and and the compromise of the bit of civil liberties first. So it's drawn a lot of attention for that reason. Claire, how significant would you um you know women leaders are in countries which have you know have have been able to elect a female leader and therefore you know we might see greater norms of of types of governance participatory governance that we see in places like new zealand where you know it's a lot more engaging between the social contract between the population and the government is a lot tighter. People respond to governments better. And so I don't think you can you can talk about those things individually.

Right. Leaders only happen in a political context where they're able to get elected. And as we saw in the last US elections, the US context isn't ready to have a woman, which tells you a lot about how important the fiscal context is. So how critical, Claire, are attitudes to gender equality? Because if you look at Australia, it's coped relatively well with the crisis, 97 deaths we heard about this morning, and yet it's dropped nearly 30 places in the World Economic Forum's Gender Equality Index in the past 15 years. What's going on there? So I'm not sure exactly in the Australian context. I think what we've also got to think about is, you know,

representation isn't the only thing that matters, right? We aren't just talking about counting women and seeing how many women are in leadership positions and how many women are at decision making tables. It's also about recognising the gendered, are the policies going to contribute to greater gender equality? And that, you know, women aren't exclusively making those decisions and nor do all women think about the gendered effects of policymaking. So I think we really need to think about representation and what decisions matter. And Rosie, we are familiar with some of President Trump's more controversial pronouncements. But what is it about the way so many prominent male leaders are responding that people suggest may be making situations worse? Well, I think this is what's really going on. I think rather than this being about women leaders leading differently,

I think that there are a group of populist male leaders who deliberately adopt a hyper masculine style. It's part of their ideology. It's part of their politics. They talk about being invulnerable to the virus, you know, Bolsonaro in Brazil, saying Brazilians can't catch COVID. I think that that's a sort of hyper masculinity, which is incredibly damaging, because it's very hierarchical. It's the cult of the leader. It's very narcissistic. And then you have a crisis like this that requires collective action. It requires listening to experts and a belief in scientific truth. And all of that's come together and meant that the worst leaders are these populist male leaders.

And they're in stark opposition to some of the women we've just been talking about. It is a complex and still evolving situation. It's by no means over and won't be for a while. What are the key skills that leaders need at this stage? Well, I think we've been talking about this very difficult trade-off between the economy and lives lost. And of course, if you completely decimate your economy, that will have an impact on lives in the future. So I don't think there is one straight path to navigate through this very difficult time. But I think it's being able to communicate so effectively that you can

get that across and have the population have confidence that you're listening to advice and you're taking the best possible path and that means actually being much more collective in in the way you respond to the crisis rather than it all being about the front man. Claire what would you say to that how sensible is it to concentrate on the national leader rather than maybe some women with other leading roles, whether it's in politics or in healthcare? Absolutely. I think, you know, leadership, it doesn't just happen in the, you know, head of state. And I think we can see leadership across this outbreak at different levels of governance, whether that be in hospitals, in local government, in public health systems. And, you know, there are definitely leaders in all those levels of

governance that are women. And, you know, just because we're not seeing those people on the TV, just because they're not being picked up by headlines of female leadership, it doesn't mean that there aren't women in these roles doing really effective activities. And I think particularly as we're seeing this retrenchment to much more localised community groups across the world to respond to the outbreak and to, you know, even in the UK to help get food for each other and kind of a local community styled response. We're seeing a lot of that being led by women as well. And so I think we need to recognise leadership across all levels of governance and the role that women play in

leadership across that. There are obviously some pretty effective male leaders as well as effective women leaders. Who are they and what are the factors that are key to the success of the really successful one? So, yeah, we've seen great male leadership in this, in examples such as South Korea. But we also need to think that, you know, if we look back to previous outbreaks, for example, previous major global health crises such as Zika in Brazil and Ebola in Liberia, they were both led by women. We had Dilma Rousseff in Brazil, we had Ellen Zerliff Johnson in Liberia, and Margaret Chan was the head of the World Health Organization during the last Ebola outbreak. So I think we need to think about, well, how are people responding to this? And what are the components within the response rather than focusing just on our women better leaders and our men better leaders.

I think it's about recognising the traits that are shared by whoever's performing a good job. How easy, Rosie, would you say, do voters find it to make judgements about their leaders in the midst of a crisis? Well, we do know there tends to be a bump in popularity for leaders in the midst of a crisis? Well, we do know there tends to be a bump in popularity for leaders in the midst of a crisis. We tend to want to collect together and to support whoever's in power. I think what's more important is probably the retrospective evaluation going forward when there are elections, people will think, can I trust this person if there's another crisis based on the previous crisis? So I think we can't really read off what people say right now about their leaders, because we're in crisis mode. It's when people have had time to reflect that

actually we will see the longer term impacts. Claire, what would you say is the answer to that question, whether we find it easy to make judgments about leaders in the midst of a crisis or not well so we know that quite often in crisis the tyranny of the urgent takes over and people just focus on you know what do we need to do to to get to the end of this crisis and i think people just want to you know support their leaders to you know get to the end and then and then you can reflect and understand how the outbreak has has has been managed i don't think it's you know in anyone's interest to start questioning changing leadership in the middle of a crisis claire william rosie campbell thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning and this is a subject on which we would like to hear from you what do

you think of the leaders across the world who've you been most impressed by do let us know you can send us an email or of course you can send us a text in lionel shriver's new novel the motion of the body through space remington and serenata are a married couple in their early 60s. Serenata has been a committed runner all her life, but as she turns 60, her knees are gone and in need of replacement. Remington has been made redundant, and he's become obsessive about fitness, planning marathons and a metal man triathlon,

even though he's never done much exercise before. So how can a marriage survive such a divergence of interests? Lionel, the book really is about coming to terms with aging and physical decline. Why did you want to unpick this relationship between Serenata's body and her mind well i guess it's partly because i'm experiencing aging and physical decline so um it's partly autobiographical though along with most subjects that interest me uh i have plenty of company so uh my readership is a portion of it probably going through some of the same humbling experience that I am of having my body start to fail me. And, you know, when I first started this book, I was a little worried that the subject of exercise seemed a little bit small for me because I've taken on a lot of larger social issues. But I discovered as I got into the book that it wasn't a small subject at all.

And as you said, it touches on decline and mortality. And also, it's largely about a marriage. And when you have a long-term marriage, especially once you get into your 60s and 70s, it's a lot about mutual forgiveness and also helping each other through the disappointments and difficulties of aging. And I personally think that aging is probably the hardest thing in the world to do gracefully now you you portray the ultra exercise industry in the united states as a kind of cynical cult why well um you know this is not an anti-exercise book i can't imagine anything more horrible. That's like being against koala bears. But it is a little suspicious of the endurance sport industry.

I think it's overselling what to me is a mechanical issue. Yes, I think we should all get our blood running on a regular basis. It's good for our health. It makes us feel better. It makes us sleep better. We all know the arguments. But I don't think exercise is the meaning of endurance sport is really offering up running around as the answer to all your prayers, as the way that you are going to redeem yourself, to raise yourself up on a higher spiritual plane. In fact, if you look at their videos and promotional literature,

it's a lot about this kind of uber-mention notion of becoming a superior being. It's very condescending toward the little people who just have their sad little runs in the morning. You're pretty snide in the book about men in lycra, buying lots of expensive gear. What experience have you had of that? Or have you just observed it? I suppose I'm asking you, your husband didn't decide to do all this stuff, did he? No, he didn't. In fact, I have dedicated this book to my husband, and the dedication specifically thanks him for not giving me the idea for this book.

My husband is one of those inexplicable men, and I think we've all met them, whose idea of working up a sweat is walking to the refrigerator, and yet still, he looks great. I don't know how he does it. But I have not had to go through this. And, and I'm grateful because it's, it, what I tried to portray in the book is the way in which, when Remington starts getting into extreme sports in a way that his wife never did, it's a territorial problem. And I think that marriages often divide up the world, and that's some of the ways that you manage the relationship.

This belongs to you, this other thing belongs to the other spouse, and when those territories are crossed you get into a lot of conflict you're also you're also interested i know in what's known as the crisis of masculinity and remington has been made redundant and the woman who's taken over the department is an African, a Nigerian-American woman. What are you trying to express in his complete loss of his job to a woman who is black? Well, this is the controversial bit of the book, but the woman who became head of the Department of Transportation, where he has worked for decades, is not really qualified for the job.

So she has ticked various diversity boxes. And she's not especially competent because she hasn't even been trained in this field. It's not even her fault. But I'm trying to get at the sense of powerlessness and injustice that dare not speak its name that a lot of straight white males currently feel you know that's the one feel it but surely lionel they they may be wrong i mean okay your fiction that says a woman who's completely unqualified to do a big job gets it but where's the evidence for that well there's evidence for it in the book that she's not very good at it but you, you know, I'm also looking at a subjective sensation, which is not necessarily justifiable. I mean, you know, there are a lot of people in the poll in the United States, white people, who claim that they believe that they are uniquely discriminated against. Now, I personally find that farcical, right? i think that's absurd but there are ways in which we can

see how how they came to feel that way um in some ways it's probably good for white people to have that experience because then they find out how everyone else feels that there is another example in in in the book of your disapproval of the concept of cultural appropriation serenata's job is is recording audio books and she's told she can't do that anymore because she does accents which are not her own how much with that did you intend to offend or provoke in this book well of course i am a compulsively a little mischievous. So and you could call that provocative instead. Yes, there is a taking the mickey out of identity politics in this book.

I hope not too heavy handedly. It's supposed to be done with a light touch. But it's also a way of making the book contemporary, set profoundly in the present, and that's what's going on right now. So yes, Serenata is told she can't do accents in her audiobooks anymore because that's, quote, mimicry. And I honestly don't even know whether that's a big issue right now in audiobooks, but of course it could be. I am, of course, and I've been very public about this, exasperated by the kind of hypersensitivity that we have entered into in relation to a lot of subjects, and I think that that's

to the disadvantage of being able to work these issues out because we need to be able to talk about things honestly and robustly and all these different rules of what you can and cannot do uh inhibits of creative people artistically and it also inhibits us on a simple popular level, being able to talk to each other honestly. You said in an interview recently, some people think I'm evil incarnate. And when I read that, I thought, hang on, it sounds as if there's a hint of a degree of pride in that. Are you proud that some people might think you're evil incarnate well um there is a way in which in the current uh polity uh and polarization um if you haven't

made any enemies then you're not saying anything so yeah there probably is an element of pride as well as exaggeration in that statement. But it's not that I go out to make enemies, actually. It's just that I'm willing to make them if that's the price of making an important point. How are you dealing with the lockdown? All too well. I think this is made for me. I'm afraid that I must have been living in lockdown most of my life. Almost nothing has changed aside from queuing to get into the supermarket. I mean, I just sit in front of the computer and I'm not that sociable at the best of times. I miss my friends. But otherwise, nothing has changed except for the better. I've never been more productive. I just finished the first draft of my new book in four months.

Lionel Shriver, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Oh, it's always nice to talk to you, Jenny. Thank you. And I'll just mention the title of the book is The Motion of to you, Jenny. Thank you. And I'll just mention the title of the book is The Motion of the Body Through Space. Thank you. Now, still to come in today's programme, it's 200 years since the birth of Florence Nightingale. What's been her impact on nursing today? And we'll sneak in another laughing baby, Sebastian, who's six months old. Now, it does look as if the Prime Minister might ease some of the lockdown at the weekend and maybe recommend that more of us wear masks if we're

to be with other people in confined spaces. Well, for the past few weeks, we've been hearing from women across the world who've been busy making masks at home for family and friends, and in this case, for child refugees in camps in Greece. Rava Nasser lives in Greece now and spoke to Maria Margaronis, who asked her to choose some music she listens to as she sews. My name is Rha Nassim. I am from Sudan. I live here in Greece with my three children and my husband. Before marriage I was in Sudan.

I finished my university. I have studied medical laboratory science. I have studied medical laboratory science. I have worked there, but when I come here, I cannot find any work in Greece. The idea started from the group created by Sudanese community here in Greece. So in this group, I saw the link from one Greek organization.

He asked from a woman to stay home and make masks to help the hospitals and everyone need masks. And we think also me and my husband to give it to the refugees in the camps. I think they need. So I was very excited to join this group and I started from there. I don't know how to sew. I bought the machine before one year. I started from home to make our clothes, to make my simple things. I am not professional. They send me specific fabric for the mask. I just only make it and send them back when it's ready. This cotton. Walid? Walid? Can you give me this please? A piece of pink cotton, it will be two layers.

Okay, so I will put some plastic to hold it. I started last week. In one week I make 60. Till today. Me and my children, we are staying home. Okay my husband he go out to bring our needs but we are home. We are enjoying at home. I was very happy to go through this experience. I learned new things because I never made masks before. Now I can make masks with different shapes, with different sizes. When I started, in one day I made only one mask. Now in one day I can make from 10 to 15 masks.

And I'm spending my free time to do something so I can help the people. Ravanasar in Greece. Now, promised we'd sneak in another of the laughing babies you've been sending to us since we discussed why babies laugh. Today, it's Sebastian. He's six months old. He likes to be tickled by his mother and he loves his

father making animal noises. That's not just a laugh, it's a tune. They really are so catching, these babies. We have lots more, they really cheer me up. Now, next Tuesday, the 12th of May, will be the 200th anniversary of the birth of Florence Nightingale. 200 years on, as nursing is at the forefront of everybody's mind during this emergency.

What influence persists of the woman often described as the founder of the profession? Well, Greta Westwood is the chief executive of the Florence Nightingale Foundation and Anne-Marie Rafferty is professor of nursing policy at King's College London and she's president of the Royal College of Nursing. Anne-Marie how much influence would you say Nightingale has on the profession now? Jenny she's had a huge influence and that endures to this day and not only in terms of hygiene infection control and prevention practices but actually the design of hospitals and, of course, the design of the Nightingale hospitals themselves were modelled on her principles of surveillance

and observation and infection control. But she also designed data systems and data visualisation systems, Our infographics really are exemplary examples of how to communicate information in a very economical way. She was the pioneer in evidence-based practice and policy, in political leadership and influencing tactics and strategies. And most important for us, I think i think now since we're in lockdown care in the community and care in the home grita i know she came from an upper middle class background what brought her to nursing which was not a respected profession when she came to it not at all and as ann marie said she's many things and one of the things that she was was very stubborn so as a young child she absolutely knew that she wanted to do something to

help people and there is a story of her having a calling in her one of her homes in Hampshire when she was about 17 and this calling was to do something to do something helpful and so she would often sneak as a child into the local poorhouses to look after and care for the people who were there and sick and she did that really without her parents permission so she knew then that that's what she wanted to do so she was on a mission at that point and would use every opportunity. But her parents just didn't want her to do it. Nursing was not a profession.

It was a very lowly job that mostly people from poorer backgrounds did. They were often prostitutes, often drunk, frankly, and reported that sometimes even shared the bed with a patient so her parents view of nursing was entirely that but she absolutely knew that she needed to do her utmost to make certain that people were cared in humane conditions so she spent the rest of her life trying to persuade her parents, nothing worked. She went off to a training school in Germany and later in Paris and that definitely gave her the idea that she must do that and it took her many years until eventually her call was in fact when the War Office wanted her to go and find nurses that could go out to the Crimea. So that was many years later and she was really such a rebel because she did not want to live crime here of course she became the lady with the

lamp which is the familiar thing that all children know about her. Anne-Marie there's something called the notes on nursing what are those notes on nursing? Well they're actually, she called them hints to women

of households in how to look after the sit charges under their their their jurisdiction and it was sisters it was daughters it was it was wives and mothers really of the growing middle-class readership at the time it was published in 1860 and it was written very much in the genre of advice literature and it was really providing guidance in how to care for the sick in the home but in style it's also a master class in rhetoric it's encouraging people to take action. We call it nudging now. So I think she was an expert in how to help people do the right thing in the home. And its prose style is really epigrammatic,

and she uses lots of examples from literature, but it's written in a very simple, economical and accessible way and um given that the prime minister is such a fan of rhetoric i was actually thinking perhaps we should send him a copy for uh international nurses day greece says that how successful was she in the Crimea? Because, I mean, those men were terribly injured. The conditions were awful. What did she actually achieve there?

Well, I think that even before she left, the thing that she achieved was, the call to action was to get together a group of nurses who had no idea what they were going to face, who had no idea how long it would take and when they got there, what it was that they had to do. So with great commitment to that cause, she took the group of 38 volunteer nurses with her

and when they got there, it was worse than they even imagined and i think the first thing that she needed to do was to um try and persuade that first of all the medical army corps that uh they needed to sort out the sanitation the conditions that the soldiers were turning up in so actually there was no hospital it was a barracks and uh the soldiers would turn up having spent hours and if not days getting to the hospital often most a lot of those died en route but when they turned up they were they were being nursed and well not even nursed but they were being looked after in the most filthiest conditions so the first thing she did was clean up the area the next thing she realized a bit like Anne-Marie's already talked about is the the cross the the

infection control and as Anne-Marie said she used the the data to show that the soldiers were actually dying not of their wounds but actually all their injuries but of infection and hand washing was the first thing that she instigated so that was the first thing and then she she she realized that they were in very crowded i mean it was inevitable but they were in very crowded situations almost on top of each other and so uh she instigated a system where they were in rows they were um separated from each other and i you might even say that she was an innovator because i i could suggest that she was the innovator of the of the originator of the two meter rule i don't think there was probably two meters between the men but those are the sorts of things that she first did and but it was it was too much for her to to endure and

those 38 nurses so they did have another another shipment of nurses to come and help but nurses at the time they also were dying of infectious diseases so um she used the story of um the the the people dying of their infection to use the data to convince the war office that something had to be done so um a high commission was was instructed and off they went so she was the voice of nursing she was the voice of nursing. She was the voice of the patients at the time. And through her leadership muscles, she was absolutely able walking through the wards at night time with her lamp and that's often what the soldiers remembered. They, in amongst the night when perhaps patients were at the most frightened, they would see this vision with her lamp coming and they knew that she would come and sit with them and just be with them.

Anne-Marie, what sort of leader was she, Anne-Marie? Because it's obviously important to have good nurse leaders. Absolutely. I mean, she was a very strong character and had very strong opinions. She was very passionate, she was very politically astute, and I think that's also something which we are teaching our students today. She was, as the press has already indicated, very determined. She had a ferocious appetite for work, and she was a fabulous first-class communicator,

not just in words, but also in numbers. She was cultivated, well-read, and she exuded a sense of power and authority and I think she put that very well to work in the Crimea itself. I think just to add to Greta's point, the thing that she sorted out in the Crimea really and went into battle with the army bureaucracy over was logistics, was a supply chain because there was nothing there when she actually arrived

and she had to provision a scutari with blankets and clothing even operating tables and bandages and dressings and medicines themselves and she couldn't get great through that barrier and so through an independent fund she actually developed her own supply chain. So when we consider the parallels with today, you know, and struggling and wrangling PPE out of the government, you know, she would have been on it like a rat. Florence would have sorted it, would she? Definitely, definitely.

Greta, the anniversary is coming up next week. What's been the effect of the current virus on your plans to celebrate her bicentenary? Oh gosh, Jenny, yes. Probably before I talk about her bicentenary and the planned celebrations, not just in the UK but across the world, I just wanted to pause because whilst we are will be celebrating this amazing woman um it clearly is tinged with sadness as we remember the 30 000 plus people who've already died and um and actually more than 60 have have been nurses

and midwives so from from the Florence Nightingale Foundation, from the professions of nursing and midwifery, we'd like to remember them and our thoughts are really with their family, friends and colleagues. So we have many plans. All across the world there are plans. In the UK we always have on the 12th of May

or near her birthday a celebration of her life with a commemoration service at west new york now we clearly can't have that that this year but what the foundation will be doing and we're very proud and privileged honored to have helena bonham carter who's going to head this campaign for us on the 12 12th of May, we will launch a public campaign where the public will be able to say a very special thank you to their nurse or midwife, who's meant a lot to them at the time. It may be their own nurse or midwife or their family, colleagues, friends. I was talking to Greta Westwood and Anne-Marie Rafferty. On our discussion about female leaders, Hillary said,

I'm listening to the discussion about female leaders and the COVID crisis and I'm most disappointed that the most effective leaders in this crisis have been the female leaders of Vietnam and Taiwan. Why are they not spoken about? They didn't close down their economies and have the disease under control. I'm most disappointed with this Western-focused discussion. Jules said Jacinta Ardern has shown leadership

and compassion in more than one crisis and remains consistent and transparent. She's inspirational. RLS said Angela Merkel, brilliant. To my shame, I didn't realise she was a scientist. Jacinda Ardern, bold, remarkable, empathetic. Both women demonstrate genuine empathy and decisions based on collaboration with their teams.

Sarah said, Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, is doing an excellent job of leadership in the current pandemic. Clear and open communication in daily briefings, treating the population as adults, acknowledging the challenges and unknowns, and not afraid to take a different stance to the UK government when in the best

interest of Scotland. She's prioritised the health of the people and has been able to show her humanity and appropriate emotion and genuine sorrow. Her approval ratings in recent polls appear to bear out how positively her leadership is perceived in Scotland, in contrast with Boris Johnson in the UK. It's a pity she wasn't included in the discussion of good female leaders in this morning's programme, unless I missed it. You didn't. Mark said discussion of women leaders always focuses on Merkel and Scandinavian PMs, less so on Taiwan, and almost never how the Belgian PM Sophie Wilmots has managed, which is surprising given Belgium's proximity and its high Covid mortality rate, like Britain's. Belgium has been very transparent on data disclosure, including

care home deaths from the start. Like Britain, and unlike New Zealand and Scandinavia, it has high population density, which makes COVID more difficult to control. Murray said, very disappointed that there was no discussion or reflection at all about the female leadership within the UK itself. In other words, Nicola Sturgeon. Her approach to leadership of this crisis within the context of Scotland should at least have merited a mention within this debate. Dot said, given Nicola Sturgeon's exemplary handling of this crisis, what are we to make from the omission of any reference to her in this morning's discussion? Surely it is not politically motivated. It isn't. And Martin said, discusses women leaders

without any mention of Nicola Sturgeon. Very poor. Chris said, in my view, women leaders are better at concentrating on the wider need rather than their ratings or the party. They're more practical, whereas men need to win, regardless of circumstances. Your comments on Lionel Shriver. Karen said, don't you just love Lionel Shriver? Not only is she a remarkable writer, but hysterically funny. I adore her. Wonderful role model for our girls. On Florence Nightingale, someone who didn't give us a name said, She was a hospital manager, statistician and mathematician, invented the pie chart.

Men of the time couldn't handle the idea that a woman could do all these things better than a man, so invented the myth of the feminine nurse with the lamp. Jill said, I was lucky enough to have a visit to Florence Nightingale's office in Uskudar, Skutari in her day, which is a magnificent military building on the Asian shore of Istanbul. You have to have a special permit to go there, but it is worth it.

There's a small museum and a spiral staircase which leads to her office. The walls are covered with handwritten notes of advice to the nurses, every one of which includes instructions on cleanliness, scrubbing the beds, scrubbing the floors, washing everything. I have thought of this advice whenever I've been in a hospital myself, as these standards sometimes fall short. And Josh said, will you be having a conversation this in depth

about Mary Seacole and her impact on nursing? Sadly, she's become something of a footnote in history despite being just as influential in nursing. Now tomorrow it's VE Day and we wonder if there are women in your lives or your family who you'll be remembering or celebrating do let us know if there are

because we'd really like to hear their stories you can email us through the contacts from the Woman's Hour website or of course Twitter at BBC Woman's Hour and do you find yourself noticing all the things that need fixing or changing in your home in the lockdown?

Are you going to do any renovation? I've noticed my bathroom ceiling needs painting. Will I get down to it? I don't know. Let us know what you're up to. That's tomorrow from me for today. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more

questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.