Woman's Hour - Women leaders, Hair loss, Maria Friedman

Episode Date: December 5, 2025

The last year has seen the election of several women to positions of political leadership: Sanae Takaichi as Prime Minister of Japan, Catherine Connolly as President of Ireland, and Jennifer Geerlings-Simons as President of Suriname. But, a recent report has suggested that trust in women leaders is declining globally. The Reykjavik Index For Leadership measures how women and men are perceived in terms of their suitability for leadership, not just in politics but across many sectors of society. So is this part of a trend of declining trust in women in positions of power? Kylie Pentelow is joined by Lois Taylor, Global Marketing Director of Verian Group who published the report, and BBC business journalist and presenter of Moneybox Live Felicity Hannah to discuss.Columnist Sarah Vine started losing her hair as a teenager and was eventually diagnosed with female pattern baldness, a hormonal condition. But now she has decided, after 15 years of wearing wigs, to reveal her own hair on the front cover of a national newspaper. She spoke to Kylie about her decision to bare all. According to a recent poll by US analytics firm Gallup, 40% of American women aged 15 to 44 would move abroad if they had the opportunity, with the desire to migrate among younger American women quadrupling in the past decade. Kylie talks to Josephine Harmon, Assistant Professor of Political Science at Northeastern University in Boston, and Bonnie Medina – now 45 with two young children - who lives in London having left Seattle one-and-a-half years ago.Four-time Olivier Award-winning actress, singer and director Maria Friedman is still best known to many as the narrator in the film of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. But this Christmas, her hugely acclaimed Broadway production of Stephen Sondheim’s musical Merrily We Roll Along, starring Daniel Radcliffe and Jonathan Groff, is coming to cinemas. And Maria also stars in Tinsel Town, which sees Kiefer Sutherland play a washed-up Hollywood actor who ends up in a small town pantomime. Maria joins Kylie to talk about more than three decades on stage and screen, and spreading joy at Christmas. A quirky new romcom novel set against the sapphic dating scene is out. My Ex-Girlfriend’s Wedding is about Hope, a folk musician who feels that she has nothing going for her: She's in a job she hates, has had to quit her band after losing the ability to play guitar; her very recent ex-girlfriend is now getting married. And so, she resolves there’s nothing for it, but to accept an invitation to the wedding and try to win back the love of her life. Kylie asks Sophie Crawford about relationships with an ex, dating within the queer community and magic- all themes in her book.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Corinna Jones

Hello, I'm Kylie Pentelow and welcome to Woman's Hour. Just to say the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for rights reasons. Hello and welcome to the programme. Thanks for your company. Now this morning we're going to talk about hair. It's after columnist Sarah Vine has revealed she's been wearing a wig for nearly 15 years because of female pattern boldness. She's chosen today to show her real hair on the front of a national newspaper. We'll be hearing from her about why she's taken this step.

So this got us thinking, have you suffered hair loss and how did it make you feel? I know for me it happened after having my son. So why are we as women so worried about what our hair looks like? Well, maybe you're not. And you can embrace your boldness. We'd really like to hear from you on this. You can text the programme. It's the usual number 84844.

On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 0-3-700-100-44-do get in touch. Also on the programme, why many American women want to leave the US, a new poll shows a growing number of younger women questioning their future in the country, will be speaking to a mother who's made the leap. Plus, the author of a new book, Sophie Crawford,

will discuss her Sapphic Roncom, about a woman being invited to her ex-girlfriend's wedding. And actress and director, and frankly Western legend Maria Friedman joins me in the studio to talk about not one but two new films that she's involved in that are coming out today. Now, one's based all around Pantos, so we'll be chatting to her about whether this Christmas tradition still has a place in the theatre today.

But first, last year has seen the election of several women to positions of political leadership. Sunny Itaki Ishii as Prime Minister of Japan, Catherine Connolly as President of Ireland and Jennifer Geerling Simons as president of Surinam. But a recent report has suggested that trust in women leaders is declining

globally. The Reykavik Index for Leadership measures how women and men are perceived in terms of their suitability for leadership, not just in politics, but across many sectors of society. So is this part of a trend of declining trust in women in positions of power?

We're joining me to discuss the report and some of the global trends in female leadership. Lois Taylor, who's the global marketing director of the Varian Group, who published this report, and also BBC Business Journalist and presenter of Moneybox Live, Felicity Hannah. Lois and Felicity, thanks very much for your company here on Women's Hour this morning. Felicity, if I can just start with you, it seems to have been a good year, doesn't it, for the election of female leaders?

Yeah, it really has been a good year. And you just listed off perhaps some of the more obvious kind of women leaders that you'd point to. But if you look across the world now, you've got very... Bangladesh, Iceland, Italy, Aruba, Uganda, just some of the countries that now have female prime ministers. Now, that's not to say that it's been an absolute, you know, women cleaning up everywhere. So if you look at 193 UN member states, 21% of prime ministers and 26% of parliamentarians overall are women. And across them as well, female leaders make up about 34% of local government positions. So huge progress has been made.

This has been a year of progress. We're not there yet. So Lois, if I can bring you in here, let's talk about this report then. What does it show? Yeah. So as Listery mentioned, we have lots of great data around attainment of power by women, but actually what the Reykjavik Index set out to do in 2018 was measure perceptions of both men and women's suitability to lead. So what this shows us is not necessarily a number of women in leadership, in political leadership, but actually how they're perceived by society. So really it measures. the association between gender and leadership.

So when the research started on behalf of Recovic Global Forum, Bivarian in 2018, we saw a score of 72. So what that means is that 100 would be there is no association. So society thinks that it doesn't matter whether you're a woman or a man in terms of your suitability for leadership. And actually, the score of 72 was the highest that we've seen across the G7. Since then, we have seen decline. And this year, the score is 68.

So actually we are seeing increasing cultural pushback for women in leadership. How does it vary by sector as well? Because as we said, the report doesn't just focus on politics, doesn't it? Several different areas. Yeah, it's interesting. We also are able to see prejudice against men, particularly in what is seen as caring sectors. So interestingly, so the question that we ask is in this sector,

do you think men, women, or either are equally suited to lead in this sector? And when we look at childcare, healthcare, women are seen as more suited to lead than both equally, which actually is an indication of prejudice against men in those sectors. And likewise, what we're seeing is perhaps a retraditionalisation. So we've seen a decline in the number of people who think women are suited to lead in sectors like gaming, engineering. over the past few years. So we are seeing increasing polarization and this kind of reversion to, you know, gender norms in different sectors. Felicity, you mentioned the female leaders that were seeing across the world. And this report

suggests that this support does vary in different countries. Yes, it does. And in quite alarming ways, actually. For example, Germany and the US, they're seeing a real decline, particularly among 18 to 34-year-olds. And that's kind of across the board. You've got support for women and leadership roles kind of declining in those younger age groups. There are many countries with a good news story to tell. So Japan and Italy, they're reversing the trend. We're seeing some very, very high index scores for some countries. Having said that, just listening to the chat there about it being quite a sort of gendered thing, so men losing out on child care roles, for example, and women perhaps losing out more in engineering and more traditionally blokey roles, it also feeds

into the businesses that we're starting and developing as men and women. So here in the UK, the British Business Bank tracks sort of investment in women teams and male teams. And so if you look last year in 2024, all female teams of women founders, they raised £190.190 million. All male founder teams raised £8.33 billion. So there is a huge difference. and it plays out in the kinds of opportunities that women have to become those leaders and to create their own businesses. Felicity, sorry, Lois, what would you say to what Felicity just said there? Yeah, I think it's, it is interesting and you mentioned the kind of the gap, particularly in 18 to

34 year olds. I think it's worth noting that that's, you know, not just driven by 18 to 34 year old men, but actually the views of younger women are also seeing a regression. So, you know, it's not just society as a whole. It's actually, you know, young women's views on women in leadership are very different to their parents as well. So I definitely think that resonates. And Lois, what do you think, have you looked into based on these findings, the reasons that might explain the underrepresentation of women in leadership roles? So the data doesn't give us reasons, but we, based on our work in public policy, have seen a number of,

of factors that do contribute. I think, firstly, economic insecurity. So in the UK, for example, we've seen the biggest drop in scores, you know, from 82 to 70 since the COVID pandemic. I think also, as we see with young people, there is more cognitive resilience with older generations. And actually, the impact of social media on young people, you know, discourse, the online targeting of young men and women, I think is having an impact. So while they're data doesn't tell us the reasons why we do see those kind of cultural forces coming through. I also think, you know, while Iceland is way ahead in terms of perception of equality and leadership, you know, they have scores of, they started at 91 when we first measured in 2022.

Even Iceland is not immune to these forces. They're also seeing decline. So this is definitely a global trend. Felicity, just finally, with the leaders that you speak, to in business, particularly the female ones. What do they say in terms of what needs to change? I know you mentioned the finance, but what else? Is it about kind of perception of women in those roles? I think that there's a lot of frustration. I think that part of the problem I hear from women leaders and from women lower down, you know, sort of making their way up through the corporate chain. They talk about a pipeline and how important it is. You cannot go from being fairly

lowly in a company to suddenly being on the board. You have to be developed as a person. You have to be developed as a person. And if there are sort of gendered stereotypes holding women back from that professional development, then they won't be in the room where those decisions get made. They won't get promoted to those higher levels. And there was some research from the OECD, the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development that looked at some of the other reasons why women might be held back. And some of it is what you might expect, things like the motherhood penalties, but also these gendered perceptions of skills and abilities that we've been talking about and different expectations as well for how men and women should behave. Women's experience of harassment and

discrimination in the workplace sometimes. These all kind of feed into it and hold women back. But the women that I talk to, the amazing women business leaders and economists and investors that I talk to, you know, there is absolutely, you know, no basis for this. These are phenomenal women working in phenomenal roles. And I suppose at least the more we see, the more younger women can be. Lois Taylor and Felicity, Hannah, thank you so much, really interesting discussion. And actually on yesterday's program, we heard from Jacinda Ardern, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, who is now taking a role to help future female leaders and also being

an empathetic leader as well. So if you wanted to listen to that, you can find that on BBC Sounds. It's from yesterday. And you can also find it where you get your podcasts too. Now, I want to talk about hair loss. Columnist Sarah Vine started losing her hair as a teenager and was eventually diagnosed with female patent boldness or hormonal condition. And now, she has decided, after 15 years of wearing wigs,

to reveal her own hair on the front cover of a national newspaper. Well, she joined me a little earlier this morning. And I began by asking her what it was like, what the impact of losing her hair at the age of 16 was like. It sort of excluded me from normal teenage activities, you know. It's just, you know, I felt very marginalised really by it all because I just couldn't, you know, all the other girls would be thinking about their hair and makeup and how they looked.

And I just, you know, I just couldn't really engage because I just felt like I didn't belong in that space at all, if you know what I mean. So I became quite isolated, I think, and quite sort of geeky. Did you seek help at that point Or talk to your parents I talked to my mum about it And we went to see someone But I mean it would have been sort of

1980 Four Something like that So you know There wasn't an awful lot of Understanding really Of it And

I just had my hair cut short really Because it looked less obvious If it was short Because you could sort of Must it up a bit Do you know what I mean I've seen countless doctors and, you know, people over the years about it. And it's only, I'd say it's only in the last

sort of 10 years, really, that they've been at all receptive to it, as it were. I mean, I think one of the problems with it is that it's not a life-threatening illness, you know. It's, you're not going to die of hair loss. It's not a priority and I sort of understand that. But I think the mental side of it is, the sort of emotional side of it, is quite difficult for people. to handle because it really undermines your confidence as a woman because, you know, femininity is so bound up with hair, isn't it? I mean, you think of, you know, Goldilocks,

you think of Rapunzel, you know, hair is the great, you know, the beautiful hair is considered to be a great asset for a female. And if you don't have it, you feel very exposed and unfeminine. So you decided to wear a wig? Tell me about that process and how it felt. Yeah, so I decided, so I sort of, I have basically female pattern baldness, which used to be called male pattern baldness, but they now do call it female pattern baldness in women.

And it's hormonal and it's to do with androgen. And it comes and goes, or it did in my case. But after I went through the menopause, it just, I think the menopause is tough for women with hair anyway. You know, a lot of my friends who have lovely hair have complained that their hair has got thinner or fallen out during the menopause. And I think the combination of that, plus I have this very underactive thyroid, plus this genetic problem. So my hair just basically checked out. And I got to the stage where I couldn't sort of disguise it anymore. So I thought, okay, I'm going to have to, you know, go for some sort of head covering.

So I went, I did a lot of research. I went to a lovely age called Lucinda Ellery. And they do this permanent hair thing, which you, which is sort of stitched into your own hair or what remains of your own hair. I had a real problem with the idea of taking my hair off at night. I know that probably sounds a bit mad, but I just, I just did. And I just wanted something that allowed me to, for example. almost to forget the problem. So you have revealed your real hair.

What did that feel like when that happened? And were people surprised? My friends know the extent of my hair loss, but not probably... I don't think anyone's ever really seen it like that. I've always kept it covered up. I don't know. It felt both sort of mad but also quite liberating.

You've done this in a big way, though, haven't you? Because you are on the front page of... a national newspaper. Yes. I know, I know. But the thing is, I've done it like, the reason I wanted to do it like that, and I have been thinking about this

for quite a long time, I'd be honest. It's just because I quite want to try and normalise this experience a bit for people. It's the last great taboo, isn't it? Hair loss. And I think for men, it's very, also equally traumatic. I think men suffer just as much. But it's sort of more accepted, really,

that a man might lose their hair. And it doesn't impact their masculinity. In fact, you know, sometimes it sort of amplifies it, if you know what I mean. If you think of people like Jason Staten, you know, all those sort of macho, bald men. But I think that for women, it's never an empowering thing. And it's always, it is always defeminizing. And it undermines your sense of self. And over the years, it has made me think less of myself.

And it has made me be, you know, sometimes it's led me to make quite bad choices. And particularly with sort of boyfriends and stuff when I was younger, I was always so pathetically grateful if a boy liked me even though I had very thin hair. And I just think, I know that a lot of women have this problem because, um, you know, the place where I go for my hair system is full of women like me who have very, very, very, very, but also statistically, we know that sort of over 30% of women have proper hair loss. And I just, it's, it is the last taboo. And I just want, I just hoped that if I did it, that people might look at me and say, well, okay, well, you know, there's someone, you're trying to make this a normal thing. Let's talk about it. Let's find solutions. Let's, let's, uh, let's be open about it. Let's not be ashamed of it. let's just talk about it and try and, you know, get through it together. There are other high-profile women. Are you aware of Jasmine Mitchell, a 23-year-old who won the Great British Bake Off this year?

Yes, I am, yes, yes, yeah. You know, there are other people. Visibility is a big part of acceptance. Yes, it's getting there. It's definitely getting there. I mean, of course, we had Gail Porter many years ago. And, of course, we've got Elphaba, Cynthia Eviro. so there are women without hair

are starting to become more mainstream but I think I'm a lot of older than all of those people do you know what I mean I'm nearly 60 so I think I think for older women it is still quite a taboo because it's just a generational thing if you know what I mean

I think the younger generation are much better about being open about these sort of things I just thought you know I'd like to try and join that chorus. That was Sarah Vine there speaking to me a little earlier. And so many of you have got in touch about this. Let's read a few of them here if I can.

Anna says earlier this year I had brain surgery followed by six weeks of radiotherapy. I have been left with a monk's tonsia. My hair will never grow back, she says, because the hair follicles have been permanently damaged. She says, some days I look at myself in a mirror and want to weep. on Saturdays, I remember I am still the same person inside and I'm still alive. That's so, so lovely to hear from you, Anna, on that.

Thank you for sharing that. And this one I hear from Pearl. Pearl says, I always had big, fabulous, long, blonde mane, but as an old lady, I have had to take allendronic acid for osteoporosis. She says a side effect is hair loss, so now I have wispy white hair. Powell says it's demoralizing and I hate it. I try to keep it long enough to keep my ears. one, but it's awful. It's not about looks because I'm nearly 80. I can't define it. I hate it.

And I just want my hair back. Pearl, again, thank you so much for sharing that. And I will try to read a few more of those comments out because we have got lots of them about hair a little later in the program. But next, according to a recent poll by US analytics firm Gallup, 40% of American women age 15 to 44 would move abroad if they had the opportunity with the desire to migrate among younger American women quadrupling in the past decade. Now, for the second year in a row, about one in five Americans say they would like to leave the US and move permanently to another country if they could. So why are a growing number of American women reassessing where they see their future?

Well, to unpick this research a little further, I'm joined by Josephine Harmon, assistant professor of political science at Northeastern University in Boston, and Bonnie Medina, who lives in London, having left. Seattle a year and a half ago. Thank you so much for joining me today to both of you. Bonnie, can I start with you? So just tell us why you decided to make the UK your home. Yeah, I mean, it was a long time coming. Obviously, these things, you know, people often, I'll just throw it out there. People just often ask, oh, was it because of Trump? Was it political? And I would say we moved here a year and a half ago before the election. I have lived through many

different political back and forth in America. It's very common. So it's beyond politics. I think, you know, what I was feeling as a mom, as a young woman in America, is this like growing societal pressure of no one really having my back. And so working, having no parental leave, being part of this new sandwich generation where I am both taking care of young children. I'm taking care of aging parents with a health care system that just isn't functioning for them and feeling that just tired, just worn out, and seeing the politics change and knowing that I have two daughters to think about. And so that's for me what really made it a decision.

If it wasn't for my daughters, I would stay and I would work for change, but given that I have two daughters, I really felt that it was time to go. and to have a different kind of life. What was the reaction of your wider family when you said you were going? I mean, they know me. So many were not surprised. Some obviously were disappointed and sad. And disappointed and sad, both that we would be gone.

And also that, you know, because I was very politically active in America, that I wasn't staying and fighting. But more than that happy for my family. and for my daughters, and I'm really hoping they could follow suit. Most of the young women that I know in America are working on a plan B. It's interesting. Joe, who are the women then? We're talking about this kind of desire to leave, aren't we? Do we know how many, like Bonnie, are actually leaving?

Yeah, I mean, in terms of the actual statistics of people who are making the choice to leave, we don't have clear data yet, clear analyses yet, but we do have indications that there is increased, as you say, interest in leaving. And the metrics in terms of people reaching out in terms of what job opportunities are on offer in the UK, in Europe are up. We know that's true in academia, in science. There are even recruitment drives from various institutions

reaching out to sort of professionals in America and trying to, if you like, encourage a brain drain and see an opportunity there. So I think there are some real indications increase in application for British citizenship. That may be a reflection of the climate in the UK, specifically around immigration with the rise of reform. But I do think

it's part of a wider shift we're seeing in which, especially young women, are becoming quite disenchanted with the political and social situation in America as a whole. And I think there are a number of key catalysts for that. It's interesting that only 19% of younger men are saying they want to

leave the US. So what do you think? We had a few mentions about it there from Bonnie, but why do you think there is this gender gap? Yeah. It's a fascinating question. I think as Bonnie sort of intimated there, I think there are key political

changes in the US that have intimated this, which are highly gendered and there are social issues. I think the Dobbs case in the overturning of Roe versus Wade was a real wake-up call to women and we've seen a sort of, you know, a gendered politics on the populist right, which is about essentially a politics of

masculinity and it creates this chilled environment for women, this sense of women's rights being under question, maybe even under attack. And so I think women, Women, especially, are much more exposed politically and more concerned about their rights today than young men are. We also, as well, added to that, we've seen partly due to perhaps the polarisation of the online space. We've seen younger men and younger women voting in different ways. And that's true in the UK and the US.

So in the 2024 presidential election, there was this big shift, this switch of young men towards the GOP Republican Party. And, you know, right-wing podcasts were a huge part of why that happened. And so I think this changing environment in the political behaviour of young women and young men, that's a key part of this picture that women feel more exposed. And this generation are going in different directions based on gender. And we are talking about a bit of an age difference here, aren't we? Because we're talking generally for those aged under 45 who are expressing this desire. So what's going on here?

Yeah. Well, I think part of it is that young women, part of it may be reproductive rights, that there are women who are of reproductive age who are feeling particularly exposed. and concerned. I think there are lots of broader concerns about, you know, what some people on the left would see is the overreach of power. You know, maybe articles 1 and 2 not being particularly abided by by the Trump administration. I think as well there's this general sense of a globalisation of political discourse today

where younger people, Genzi especially, are sharing stories about what it's like to live in different countries on the internet. So you'll see TikTok threads where there'll be a conversation about, you know, what do you not miss about the USA or what have you been able to experience in terms of parental leave, and other kinds of social rights and the welfare state. And that narrative as well has been popularised by AOC, by Bernie Sanders, by Moundarni, this wider awareness of, you know, what is the social reality like in the USA today? And can it be different? And I think the globalisation of discourse is a key part of why younger women

are much more critical of the social contract that they're seeing on offer in the USA. Obviously, you know, this politics is a key issue here. But some commentators say that women feel pressure from the political right and the left. traditional roles promoted by conservatives pressures of a progressive working life from the left so it's not necessarily one-sided here that's true I think that's that's right I mean I think in terms of the nature of working life

I think that's certainly true that there's a culture of work of working hard of being entrepreneurial there's this incredible dynamism with an American working culture that obviously leads to a booming economy and that's certainly something that we see encouraged on the left as well as on the right in America so I think that's true that there is this broader, you know, questioning of the work culture as a whole, which is not necessarily partisan.

I think that's quite correct. Bonnie, you were talking about your daughters. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit more about whether you would feel differently if you had sons. It wouldn't be as pressing for me, to be honest, but it still would be an issue. So right now in America, whether you have the health care choices over your body, depends on what state you're in. That's just not okay for me as a mother. Having said that, every mother in America drops their child off at school. And that is a terrifying experience for mothers in America, whether you have a son or a daughter.

You know, I remember holding my hand, the hand of my child, like very tight. Because we go through these school shootings quarterly, or it depends on your community. I mean, a massive school shooting quarterly. There are massive, there are school shootings like all the time. And so we live in fear as parents. And I can't tell you once I moved to the UK that like weight just was gone. And walking away from the school, knowing that my children were safe, I can't, I can't even put it into words. It was just such a freeing moment.

So whether or not you have sons or daughters, that is gone. But because I have daughters, I have more of a responsibility for them to be in a country where they have rights. Do you miss home? Of course I do, especially around the holidays. I really miss it. And I want the best for America. I'm very politically involved and watch everything and hope. And I want the best.

But had I not had children, I would be there. working but because I have children because I have daughters I need my number one job is to keep them safe and I feel like we're in a better position here and what about the the future for you Bonnie do you think that you might return to possibly yeah what would need to I don't know I mean given the situation with the guns that's not going to change in my lifetime unfortunately out nor row v weighed i don't think so um so i can't see that changing given my responsibility um but of course i miss home i'm human you know being an immigrant is hard no matter where you are um but um for right now the ukays home and we're we're very happy for that um joe based on these figures it do you

think that we might see in this country a a move of of more people coming here for for reasons that Bonnie has mentioned in others too? I would expect so. And I think a lot of it depends on, I do think maybe to be slightly contrary, I do think a lot of this is catalyzed by the political climate right now. I do think there's a degree of panic and worry, which is quite real to people. And I think the experience of that since the beginning of this year is, is quite real. So, you know, depending on should the trajectory we see continue in terms of that level of anxiety, the polarization, we're seeing the concern about the administration, I think it's highly likely we'll see a shift, a movement of more people. And, you know, the UK is a very

attractive destination to Americans for lots of reasons, shared culture, shared language. So I think it's, and from anecdotal experience, I think that's highly likely that people are interested in that. Okay. Joe Harmon, assistant professor of political science at Northeastern University in Boston and Bonnie Medina, an American now living in London. Thank you so much for speaking to me today. Really interesting to speak to you both. We have had a message on this, actually, from Karen, says there are glaring double standards on the discussion of American women wanting to migrate to the UK because they are disenfranchised within their country's politics. It's entirely justified, she says.

Yet non-white immigrants from non-English-speaking countries are discussed in a totally different way. Very sad reflection on the bias in UK society. Karen said, thanks very much for all your comments. We have had lots about hair too. We are discussing this because columnist Sarah Vine has decided that after nearly 15 years of wearing wigs, she has decided to reveal her real hair this message here says I'm 61 I got a Mohican 15 years ago

it's currently purple it's the best thing I ever did I'm always getting complimented on my hair be bold adapt to what you have they say meanwhile this person says completely lost all my hair to alopecia in September of 2014 and have worn wigs ever since

I no longer miss my hair they says they say wigs are very stylish but I like my eyebrows and my eyelashes back thank you so much for all your comments on that. It's definitely one that's got people talking. Now my next guest is four-time Olivier Award winning and for more than 30 years has been one of the most celebrated styles of the West End stage.

Anyone who grew up in the 90s will know her as the teacher they wished they had playing the narrator in the film, Joseph in the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. But today is a rather big day for actress singer and director Maria Friedman as she brings not one but two early Christmas presents to our summer. screens. First, Maria's critically acclaimed Broadway revival of Stephen Sondheim's musical Merrily We Roll Along, starring none other than Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff. It's also in cinemas today.

And she stars alongside Keitha Sutherland and Rebel Wilson in the festive comedy, Tintseltown, which launches on Sky Cinema. Also today, Maria, welcome to the woman's house studio. Lovely to see you. We've got to start with Tinsletown. I think it's fair to say. It's a bit silly. A brilliantly silly in which Keitha Sutherland plays a failing Hollywood action hero He's brilliant in it

Finds himself in a cast in a small town pantomime Tell us about your character Brenda And what was it like Spending that much time in a rather wonderful polyester wig Five wigs, may I say Pink, silver, blue One actually had lights in it Which, you know, call me an attention seeker

but um so my part's absolutely i play fairy godmother in a pantomime um and i just decided to make her um a sort of nymphomaniac on heat who really feels she's in with the chance with the kiefer sullen character um she absolutely she she thinks she's just rocking it all the time and um perhaps has one too many little tipples now and again and uh she's she's just a hilarious character and When I first, you know, in films you don't get a lot of time to rehearse. And one of the first scenes I did with Kiefer before we'd even really been introduced, I just came onto him really, really strong and just sort of like wandered up to him. And you actually saw him physically back away.

He was actually frightened. And he was like, oh my goodness, this is this what I've got in store. But my character is hilarious. She's just hilarious. She loves pantomime. She, you know, she lives for it once a year. They all gather together. and it's like a little community.

And it's, you know, the film, you say it's silly, but I think it's got an amazing heart to it. I think it's really got a sweetness in the centre of it. And a friend of mine who studies actually American film. That's what she does. She said, I've never seen a film that actually captures the feeling of Christmas as well as this. It's not about Christmas. It's the feeling family.

I understand that. Yeah, it's war. It's a warm, fun film that celebrates our country as well. Shall we hear a bit of you in action as Brenda then? You're actually explaining what a panto is to, Keith Sutherland here. Let's have a listen. You've got men dresses women, women dresses, horses played by people, plus pop songs and parotechnics.

Always a happy ending with an enormous explosion covering the whole auditorium. Brenda, try not to be soccer. They're children, present. Double entendres too, Brad. You like those, I'm sure. Mind you. They're allowed to get your mouth around. I mean, when you say it like that, when you're talking about what a panto is,

it's to explain to somebody who doesn't know what a panto is, I mean, it is utterly ridiculous, isn't it? It is, but, you know, that tradition that does keep theatres alive throughout our country that's been going on forever, it's for everybody and families go, you know, grandmas and young kids and you kind of look forward to it. I think it's a remarkable tradition. And you've been in one?

I was in one of my first jobs with Frankie Howard and June Whitfield. It was Jack in the Beanstalk and I played Princess Melanese. Do you remember what it was like? Vividly, I was actually just talking about it in the green room that Frankie Howard, he was an amazing comedian, one of the greats. And I had a line on stage and I came up, I used to get quite a good laugh for it. And he came off and he said, Maria, if you break that line up and you count to two in the middle of it,

you'll just listen to the audience, you'll get a better reaction. So I went out the next day and I said my line and I counted one, two, and I said the rest of it. And the audience reaction was about three times as much. And then I came off stage, beaming, and she said, I think you're ready for three. And the next day I went on one, counted one, two, three, and I got around of applause. And it was the most unbelievable lessons about comedy and science, that kind of thing. And I've held onto it and learnt from that, from that moment on. It's about there is a rhythm that's just written there that somehow translates and an audience will get it.

I mean, you've worked with some absolutely wonderful people, haven't you, over your career. I'd love to see your contacts and your phone must be amazing. In this film itself, you've got Derek Jacoby, Mirosiah, Rebel Wilson, but that's just namely three. I mean, it's filled with them. And, you know, we were saying it is kind of revolved around a Panto. Do you think Panto is still important today? Yeah, absolutely, 100%.

Why? Well, as I said, it's about tradition, about family. And it's for everybody. and the audience participation and just the fact, you know, there's gender bending. Is it like it's all these things that it's belongs to everybody. It belongs to you, you know. And I think you really feel that. And it's, yeah, something that brings people together.

And as I said, that income will generate, you know, a theatre being able to stay open for the rest of the year. It's really important. And often introduces people, you know, children. Well, absolutely, well said, yeah. It's the first thing you might go and see, and maybe the last thing you may go and see. Let's talk about Merrily, we roll along. So also out today. So the musical was one of Stephen Sondheim's biggest flops when it originally opened in 81.

You starred in a production in 1992. Yep. And then you directed it. Yeah. So tell me about how that came about. And what was that like? Well, it was actually my husband, Adrian Degroian, who's actually in Paddington the musical at the moment. May I just say that, my beautiful husband?

I was asked to direct, and I thought, I don't really know whether I can do this or not. He's always said, I should direct. He said, do merrily. I was in it. You were in it. And, you know, you can come home. We can have a chat about it if you don't know what to do. But it was like putting on a really comfortable suit. I just, it was very natural for me to direct. I don't know why or how. but it felt like a very natural progression

and I love this piece I feel a huge responsibility of course Steve was my friend for 40 years he actually died before we moved into onto Broadway with it but he had seen the production and I just feel I'm custodian of a masterpiece it's a true masterpiece

that one of your researchers came up to me before and said merrily changed his life and it's one of those great people pieces of work that will impact you and it shifts the dial a bit and it has important ideas in it, ideas that can make a difference and you, it's so full of humanity and and little clues about how to live life and how important friendship is. All the things I really mind about are in this piece and it stretches over 20 years, which is as I've been working on it for over 20 years.

It's a whole life. And so it came about just by being asked to do it. And then it's just had its crazy from flop to, you know, many a chocolate factory to the West End to Boston to New York Theatre Workshop, onto Broadway and now into a film. And it's just been a ride of a lifetime. So it's filmed, isn't it? And that's what you can see.

Why did you want to film it? Does it bring something else to the audience? do you think, or maybe a new audience? Yes, it's going to both those things. It's going to come to a new audience. It's in thousands of cinemas all over the globe. So what a thing. I just keep thinking Steve would just be so thrilled.

Because people write stuff to be seen or heard, not just a situation. Not everyone can go to Broadway. Not everyone can get to the West End. Now this is going to go everywhere. It does give you an entirely different perspective because I was allowed to film, it close up. We don't have the pros ever, the pros art, which is, you know, we never see

we're in a theatre. So it's kind of my favourite sort of genre of cinema is being a voyeur. So we're in the room with these people. And merrily isn't a huge plot. It's a collection of moments that you gather like a basket. And at the end, you've got a very full basket of moments which add up to a life. And I can choose those moments and I can show those and share them in a really specific way and I do feel that probably it's the best version of this piece that you can get because I was able to spend over a year of my life getting the detail onto screen. It's been a privilege. It's been the happiest job of my life working with incredible cross people like Sam Levy who did Lady Bird. He's my cinematographer.

and Spencer Averick, who was my editor. And together we knew we wanted to make a kind of new... It's not a capture or a pro shot because you're very aware you're in a theatre then. And I've always felt a bit of phoomone. Like I wished I was there, or I'm not quite getting that energy. Whereas I'm allowed to give you that energy by my cuts and the way we look into the eyes of some of the best performances

you will ever see on screen. And the reviews that are talking about, talking about, you know, it's a profound piece. It's a profound piece, but fun with great music and joy and it subversively catches you off guard. We're running out of time. I could talk to you for hours, Maria, but I just want to ask you one thing. I heard that one of your Christmas traditions as a family, because you come from, of course, an extremely creative family. You used to put on a Christmas play each year. Do you still do it? I can't believe you know about this? Who said that? How did you find? Yes, we do. We script it, film it, cast it. It's

very, very funny. Yes, we do put on, we do. Sounds pathetic. Doesn't it? Like, we can't get enough of, we can't get enough of acting and see. But it's actually, we cast all the young ones in stuff. And what's this year, Goddard's door? I don't know. We don't know until the day. Oh, that's so much. We don't know till the day. Yeah, we choose a different person to write it every year. Yeah, we, we, it's very funny. And it's all videoed. And we've got my brother, Ben Friedman, he often films them. He is a documentary filmmaker.

So it's like, it's quite high quality. We take it incredibly serious. These are costumes, wigs, everything. It sounds wonderful. Thank you so much for speaking to me, Maria Friedman. Merylowe, We Roll Along, is released in cinemas today. And you can watch Tinsletown on Sky Cinema. Now, we've been talking about hair loss.

And it's after Sarah Vine has decided that, nearly 15 years of wearing a wig. She has revealed her real hair. I've got so many messages on this. This one here, my niece lost her hair through cancer. She abandoned her wig. Before she ever wore it, she absolutely, this is in Capitals. She absolutely looked fantastic and was a total inspiration to everyone. If you're happy, you'll spread happiness. So go for it. Thanks so much for all your comments. I will try to get to a few more of them before the end of the programme. But now for a Sapphic Roncom with a wedding and lots of twists and turns. There's a new novel out by Sophie Crawford. Now, it centres around Hope,

a musician who feels she has nothing going for her. She hates her job, has had to quit her band, and she can't play guitar anymore. And her very recent ex-girlfriend has just announced that she's going to get married to somebody else, of course. So what then? Well, I'm joined by the author of my ex-girlfriend's wedding, Sophie Crawford. Thanks so much for coming in, Sophie. Lovely to see you. Thanks for having me. This is your first book, isn't it? Where did you get the idea? Well, it comes from the fact that the queer scene that I exist in is very, very small and it's not at all uncommon for people to do things like go to their ex-girlfriend's, ex-partners, weddings,

or just have their ex-s in their lives and be very sort of associated with them. And I just thought it was very rich material for satire and comedy, and I hadn't read it in another book or a rom-com. Yeah, so had you read much queer literature growing up then? No, I've got to admit, no, growing up almost, almost none. It was only when I guess I was coming out that I started looking for it as a first port of call for understanding how I was feeling. But there were no, there were no books like this when I was growing up

or even when I was looking for books about it when I was coming out. You've described it as being about the absurdities of London's suffocay scene. So can you tell us a bit about that? scene. If you don't mind me saying you're 34 now. Yeah. And when did you come out? It's like later. I came out later. So I was 27 when I came out. But before that, I was still sort of, I guess, involved in the queer scene through drag king stuff. I used to be in a drag king band, which I think was sort of my gentle way of approaching coming out, exploring it, I suppose. So yeah, the scene, I suppose, that I'm satirising or paying tribute to. in the book is one that is very, very, very small. And it's just the vibe that you'll go to a club and you'll see the same people or if you're on apps, you'll see the same people.

And the levels of separation are extremely small. And I've been noticing that even when people who very, very kindly have reviewed my books, if they're gay, the chances are they're one level removed. But, you know, someone I know might have gone on a date with them. So it's very small and it's quite extraordinary to live in a big city and yet for that to be the case. You're going to read us a part of the book and just while you're getting prepared for that, I just want to say that if you didn't listen to Tuesday's program, there's a really interesting discussion.

We talked about exes in the queer community and about staying in touch with them. And comedian Rosie Wilby said a bride at a lesbian wedding should be given away by a procession of her exes. It was a really interesting discussion. So if you didn't listen, go and have a listen back to that on BBC Sounds. But, yeah, Sophie, if you don't mind, you're going to read a little bit about the two characters, Hope and the love of her life, Julia. Yeah, here we go. In the early days of their relationship, Julia had been undeterred by the terrible sex and had been persistent with Hope. It was a situation Hope hadn't been in before.

She was used to agonised pursuits, long walks with pained silences. drinks where she would try to work out if they were on a date. Sex followed by a week of no contact. Julia was astonishingly straightforward. She didn't seem to have time for any of the uncertainty that had defined Hope's previous romantic endeavours. When can I see you again? Julia would ask.

And whatever Hope replied, Julia would say, Can't I see you sooner? It was flattering. Hope's other girlfriends had never been like this. Hope started to think that This was perhaps what a serious relationship looked like until Julia would start talking, as she always did, about their eventual breakup.

When this ends, you'll just ride into the sunset, she would say, and Hope tried to work out what to do with her face. Julia seemed to have decided that Hope was a stop on a longer journey whose end point did not include her. It left Hope feeling consistently confused. It's so wonderful. I felt myself in the book kind of thinking, come on, Hope. I know.

I really like you. Come on. I was kind of rooting for her. Pull yourself together. You're a musician. Hope's a musician. How much of hope is you? I mean, most of the characters are me, essentially.

It's a one-woman show. I definitely obviously use the fact that I play music in creating the character of hope. I hope I'm not quite as like lost and hopeless as she is. But, no, I mean, I'm in all of hope. them. I mean, all the characters, definitely. And Hope can't, doesn't play, she used to play guitar, she doesn't play anymore. So what, what's happened? And I wonder if that, that disconnection with music has ever happened for you. Oh, 100%. I mean, what I, what I put in with hope, and I guess with the character

of hope, it's sort of an exercise in how can we make things as bad as possible for this person in order to build them back up again. But, yeah, musically, she is experiencing, I don't No, I mean, she's sort of experiencing stage fright, which is definitely something I've experienced. And that anxiety of making sound and it going completely wrong, she's just completely lost capacity and faith, which is so exposing when you're on music. Because, boy, you can you, you could just hear it.

It's just wrong. So, yeah, that's definitely from my own experience of, yeah, I mean, I play the accordion, which is a very loud instrument. So when you're screwing that one up, it's extremely noisy. I'm sure that doesn't happen. There's a lot of magic in the book, isn't there? And tarot as well. Is magic, is tarot something in the queer community that you wanted to highlight?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, tarot, astrology, it's a bit of a cliche, but it's very present among my friends. And it seemed like, and for me, I mean, I didn't want to write a book without it. And I think also because of my background in folk music and folklore where magic's incredibly present and just sort of taken as a given there, it felt very natural for me to write a book that was drawing on that interest and absorption in the queer community that sits very naturally. And I don't know if that's because a lot of people who might have been brought up with major religions after they come out are no longer feeling welcome in that spiritual area anymore. so turn to something that's a bit more open, a bit more free and tarot and astrology and magic can

have that. But also, I love the fact that it feels like it's a continuity of a sort of folk tradition that keeps magic present in people's lives. I want to talk about folk in a minute actually, but let's talk about religion because hope is Jewish. Why, she's very supported by her family, I should say. But why was including her religion important to you? It's interesting. When I was writing this book I was doing a master's in creative writing and I went to a lecture by a Jewish writer and I said to them, oh, I'm writing a book and I'm Jewish and can you suggest any female Jewish writers who I could read? And he said, I can't think of any, which was a quite extraordinary response and I realised now it's completely unfounded. But it made me feel like, my goodness,

it feels very important for me to ensure this is in my work. And as soon as I made that decision to include it, it then took on the additional level of ensuring that I include a family that reflects my own background, which is one that's diasporic and pro-Palestinian and, you know, and doesn't have a problem with gay people. So it was about representation. Yeah, so that people recognize themselves. Because England's got a really old Jewish community. Why aren't they in more books, you know. It is quite funny how I think it's her grandmother is just like, bring anyone along. And we don't, you know, it's like, oh, you've got a, you've got a girlfriend, great. Just come, please. I know. Their obsession in that family is get a partner. Get a partner.

You don't care. Which is, you know, their own problem. You talk about, obviously, there's word of hen parties, engagement parties, weddings in the book, of course. You know, I don't want you to mention your specific experiences of hen parties and weddings. But there are some people. pretty excruciating scenes, very funny, of the behaviour of brides and guests. Does that reflect real life? I mean, yes. I mean, surely if anyone's, anyone who has anyone who has ever been to a hen party or a wedding has probably experienced some of the things I write about in the book. And they are just the most exposing experiences.

I mean, and it's me, I guess, of me to be satirizing them so viciously. But the thing is, is they are such useful, dramatic devices because they are a very rare time when someone is completely in control of creating an event that's supposed to reflect themselves totally that can really make or break relationships and friendships. So I guess I was drawing on that. But, yeah, I mean, yes, I've been to hen parties and weddings.

And yes, I use some experiences from that for the best. book, but the book is critically fiction. You must say that. Just finally, we talked to a mention of your music. You've worked as a performer on the West End, Shakespeare's Globe toured internationally. So why writing then? And is this writing the avenue going to go down? Yeah, I'm definitely, when working my second book at the moment, I'm very passionate about writing and, yeah, very excited about it.

I think coming from a performing background, which has been so vital, made me very excited about making something where I had complete creative control. It's all mine. I don't have to ask anyone to do it. I can cast all the characters. I can make it all myself. And I was reading a really interesting essay by Maggie Nelson where she said it's like seizing the means of production. You know, it's like you're in control. And that's so rare in any creative.

creative world. So yeah, writing is definitely the thing right now because you get to trust yourself and make the choices and make it as good as you possibly can, which when you're working live, as you know, it's really, really hard. Sophie, it's lovely to speak to you and Sophie's book, My Ex-Girlfriend's Wedding.

It's a great read and it's out now. Thank you very much indeed for speaking to me. We've been asking for your comments about hair loss. We have had so many in this one here. From Sophie says, I've suffered hair loss on the top of my scalp for 19 years. now. I suffered with hormone changes, but also complex psoriasis and folliculitis. I hope I've got that wrong. My long and wild hair has always been my identity. Losing hair has had a massive impact on my

confidence. One female friend said, I used to be jealous of your hair. I was very shocked. She said, I don't like sitting down on the tube or in a social situation as it's much more apparent. She says, I'm working on accepting it and embracing the locks that I have now. Thank you so much to everyone who bravely got in touch to talk about that. Now, on Weekend Women's Hour, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, on Compassion in Leadership, you can join me tomorrow at 4 for that. But for now, thank you very much indeed for listening.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Nula McGarverin, and I want to tell you about a BBC podcast called Send in the Spotlight. The number of children with special educational needs is increasing. Too many parents are having to fight to get those needs met, and councils are spending money that they do not have. Against a backdrop of government reform, I bring together families, teachers, experts and decision makers to reimagine the system. Listen to Send in the Spotlight

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