Woman's Hour - Women of Colour & Gardening; Free School Meals; Clear Communication in a Crisis

Episode Date: March 24, 2020

It’s the beginning of spring, and in more recent years, gardening is being seen as a therapeutic form of self-care. But for women of colour, planting is becoming a popular way to establish ownership and celebrate cultural heritage. Aimée Grant Cumberbatch is the founder of Grown, a gardening club for women of colour. Flo Headlam has been gardening professionally since 2012, and in 2017 she became BBC Two’s Gardeners’ World’s first black presenter.Five years ago chef, Nicole Pisani gave up cheffing in a top London restaurant to make school dinners. Now working in Hackney she joins Jane with executive headteacher, Louise Nichols, who runs three schools in the borough. They tell Jane why have they set up a Free School Dinners campaign and their hopes to see it expand whilst schools are closed.“Stay at home, save lives”, but is the message getting through and are other messages people are getting confusing it? The Chief Medical Officer for Scotland and the Deputy Chief Medical Officer for England have been widely praised for keeping it clear, concise and comprehensible. Is there anything that men can learn from women about crisis communications? Dr Camilla Pang was diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at the age of eight. She struggled to understand the world around her. Now aged 26, and with a PhD in biochemistry, Camilla has used her specialist scientific knowledge to examine society’s obscure customs, the strangeness of social norms and identify what it really means to be human in her new book, 'Explaining Humans' .Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Louise Nichols Interviewed Guest: Nicole Pisani Interviewed Guest: Anne McElvoy Interviewed Guest: Helen Lewis Interviewed Guest: Dr Camilla Pang Interviewed Guest: Aimée Grant Cumberbatch Interviewed Guest: Flo Headlam

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, hello. Because there's going to come a time, probably in the very near future, where none of us can remember what day it is, I think we've decided to reintroduce the day and date at the start of the Woman's Hour podcast. So the podcast you're about to hear, it's Tuesday, the 24th of March, 2020. And we live in interesting times. Here's the programme.

Hello there, very good morning to you. You'll be relieved to hear we're going to talk about gardening on the programme today. That's something to look forward to a little bit later. This is a good time to get into fiddling with your garden if you're lucky enough to have one and we'll talk about houseplants as well, I promise you. We'll also have a catch-up with our regular guests, Anne McElvoy and Helen Lewis. They'll discuss the art of communication with me. But yesterday on the programme, we did talk about home education. If you missed that, catch up with us on BBC Sounds yesterday when we had some advice for you about a bit of homeschooling, if that's something you're obliged to do, or at least have a bash at over the next couple of weeks. Today, we thought we'd catch up with people who are actually still offering school for the children of key workers.

And we'll also talk to Nicole Pisani, who was an Otter Lenge restaurant chef, gave that up to cook in a school. She's one of our guests and we'll start with her and Louise Nicholls, an executive head teacher in charge of three primary schools in Hackney in East London. And I guess, Louise, yesterday was quite a day for you. How did it go? It was interesting. Good morning, by the way. Good morning. It was an interesting day. I don't think teachers and schools have had to deal with so many varied circumstances in one day for a long, long time. Well, we heard in the news there at 10 o'clock, Michael Gove just outlining some of the information that I think was just a little bit lost last night when the prime minister gave that statement that a lot of people will have seen and heard. People's lives are messy and confusing and all of our lives are unravelling in various ways

and not every couple are together and there are all sorts of arrangements in progress, aren't there? Absolutely. And the biggest challenge for schools at the moment is managing the expectations around who gets the key worker childcare. It's very difficult for schools to make decisions. All our staff is an ever- dwindling pool at the moment. Every day we get a few more people who are self-isolating or who have developed symptoms. We've got people who've got vulnerable others living in their

households. So it's very, very difficult when our staff are dwindling to then manage a large group of children coming in for childcare, some of whom possibly could be safer at home. How did you go about imparting that message yesterday? So what we're doing is we're on the phones, we're on email, our websites are constantly being updated. Part of a wider network of of teach of head teachers all talking to each other we're sharing resources around developing things like application forms for people to say that they think they qualify for child care and then what we've done is we've developed a tree diagram which is a sort of yes no um yes you do qualify you don't. And we are trying as much as possible to advise people who have one key worker in the house and another person who,

it can be anyone over 18, who is able to look after the children at home, that that is the safest thing to do. Okay, so that other person over 18 could be a student, of course, because they're not at uni or college right now. If it's the other parent and they're not a key worker are you finding that some of those parents are just not willing or interested in in being the stay-at-home parent absolutely um yeah the uh we we are we are finding that what's happening is because the government said that we have to take only one key worker in each pair, that is proving difficult because if there's one key worker and the other parent is at home,

some parents are thinking it's possibly their right to have the childcare. And although that is what the government guidance is, schools are trying very hard to persuade them that actually, if there's somebody who can safely look after the children at home, then that's the best thing. Right. And what about, I mean, I've read all sorts of things on social media that some people, frankly, are chancing it, are ringing up claiming, or turning up claiming that they are a key worker when, for example, they might work in a beauticians, for example. And then you've got people who claim to be, well, indeed are in real life journalists,

but they're not working in public service broadcasting. And therefore, they really, in truth, don't have the right to education for their kids, do they? Yeah, I think the confusion came with the very extensive list of key workers and of course we're all about making sure that the health service and that every vital worker can get to work and to keep things going and to help fight the virus but yes you're right we're getting quite a few examples of parents who feel that because they are on that list in some way, that they are entitled to that care. That's very difficult to manage. Yeah, and as you were telling me earlier when we chatted briefly,

it's your people on the phones who are actually having to deal with a heck of a lot of this, who are the phones ringing pretty much off the hook. One way that you can keep in touch with your more vulnerable pupils is via food. So just explain how that's happening. So what we're doing is, so yes, you're absolutely right. The two of my schools have got very high free school meal numbers in them. So around about 50% of the children are normally in receipt of free school meals. So holiday hunger is normally a problem for us. So when we knew this was coming,

we knew that we were going to have a big problem in our communities in Hackney around making sure those children were fed. And luckily, because we have a marriage between our schools and Chefs in Schools, the charity, we were able to be able to use some of the resources we've got in terms of linking with chefs and food suppliers to linking with headteachers and schools to try and get a service running between the two different sides. And we've managed to start that yesterday. So all up and running now.

Brilliant stuff. Nicole Pisani is the woman who's in charge. She's the chef. And yesterday, Nicole, what did you cook exactly and for how many? We had two hubs one Gayhurst Primary School at Mandelwood Primary School serving 300 meals per hub and the menu was a veg paella with a spinach and lemon dressing. Now this dish is then put into what kind of a cardboard box and then transported? Yes, it's put in a brown paper box.

And from then, other headteachers were supplying at the moment six other different schools in Hackney. The headteachers then come and collect the boxes which are put in crates and distribute them to their community as well. Now, I know you made a colossal life change, didn't't you a couple of years ago when you gave up your chefing job in a you know high-end Ottolenghi restaurant pretty sophisticated stuff to do cooking in schools you cannot have imagined this I mean it goes without saying but I've said it I've said it anyway but you tell me. I know we I couldn't have imagined this. And funnily enough, we have a lot of restaurant chefs currently in schools, which I imagine they wouldn't have imagined this either. But like Louise said, at the moment, it is a marriage between, you know, headteachers, chefs, and also other charities out there,

like the Felix Project, Magic Breakfast, and Olio. We're all coming together, you know, and putting our hands up and saying, right, we have a pool of chefs which are currently not employed. You know, Louise has a pool of headteachers saying we're willing to offer our kitchen spaces. And then linking up with other great charities out there as well, saying we've got surplus food. Olio, on the other hand, picks up any food that hasn't been collected

from the schools and distributes it to their network of vulnerable people. So I guess it's a coming together of, once again, I think it is a bit of a silver lining. It's coming together and making sure that all vulnerable children are actually being fed. And today, tempt me with today's menu. What is it? So it's a tomato pasta bake with garlic bread and a rocket salad and it's important to emphasize sometimes we think of schools having cooks you're a chef and you're providing really lovely grub uh at a cost of what per head what is it uh well currently it's about five to ten p a head, but on a normal day it would be between 75 and 80p

ahead. Did you say 5 to 10p ahead for today? At the moment, yes. I mean, it is obviously using a lot of surplus food, which we got kindly donated. Saying that, we're not the only school, we're supporting so many other schools in different hubs around London as well and that's also you know an amazing thing to point out that a lot of people out there are trying you know to do the same thing and deliver you know and if the model is slightly different where they're delivering food boxes rather than meal ready-made meals it's also you know really good to know that there's a lot of chefs which are behind this at the moment yeah trying trying to do a good thing from the times

that we're currently in very quick question to you um if you are a helpful neighbor trying to look after an older person is it safe to cook for them? I would say at the moment, yes. But like I said, every five minutes, things keep on changing. So it's the same with our schools. We were talking if the model needs to change, luckily enough, we have the right people behind us to do so immediately. Thank you very much. Louise what's interesting of course and what's important is that you are keeping an eye out for those children when they come to collect the food or when the food is brought to them how does it work?

Absolutely so we've got as you're probably aware there's a huge home learning programme going on schools everywhere developing home learning platforms but obviously a lot of our families may not have internet connections and those things make it very difficult to keep in touch with them so one of the things that staff who are distributing the meals because it's important to remember it's school staff who are going out picking so one school will drive to one of the hub schools pick up the meals take them back to their school and distribute them from their school, normally from the street entrance of their school. And there's all sorts of systems for keeping the children separated

while they collect the food. But what they're also doing is they're ticking off the vulnerable children. So they're saying which children they've seen. So what we're doing in schools is by the time we get to the end of the week, if we haven't made contact either on the phone or by email or through online learning or haven't seen a child at a school gate then that day they will get a phone call from our safeguarding team just to check that they're okay and that their family are okay. Right it sounds like a fantastic effort going on there really appreciate your involvement thank you very much Louise. Louise Nicholls, who's an executive head teacher, and you also heard from

Nicole Pisani, who gave up that job to be a school chef, and it just sounds like she is doing a fantastic job. At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, if you've got anything to say to us, any questions, any comments, any emails. I've got some of your emails to

read out, actually. We've had, as you might expect, a whole range over the last 24 hours with people just drawing attention to their domestic situations, wanting to cheer us up, having a go at me, the usual sort of thing. But we welcome everything. So you can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Helen Lewis can join us, staff writer for The Atlantic and Anne McElvoy, senior editor at The Economist.

We want to talk about the art of communication and so much more this morning. Anne, I can actually see you. Good to have you in the studio. It's a real human interaction at a safe distance. At a very safe distance. First of all, let's focus on the YouGov polling. There was a poll very, very recently. 93% that's coloss, supporting the Prime Minister and the measures introduced last night. 4% opposed, 3% don't know. What do you want to say about that? I think you see a consolidation in times of crisis and emergency behind a government and a lot of other things are put aside. I was just reflecting the column I was writing overnight that if you look at where Boris Johnson is, he's about to probably get kia starmer as as

a labour leader if if that's what what the outcome is that was really supposed to be a kind of post brexit brexit trade deal set to between the two parties all of that is parked all of it is is on the side that said if you dive into the data people often have quite different views on whether communication has been handled well whether they understand the Prime Minister, whether they think that things happened early enough. And there you will see rather different data and people do have perhaps more distinct views. But yes, we get behind the government. The government's our main source of information. Helen Lewis? I think it's really interesting because if you look at the polling from around the time of the

Iraq war, you know, most people are in favour of that now. And I remember Ken Clarke saying, you know, now you kind of go out and no one will admit to ever having thought it was a good idea. So there is this effect where you see in times of crisis or wartime, you know, which is very much how Boris Johnson has presented this, that people do want a sort of strong leader and they do feel a sense of patriotism. And you do get people saying, you know, don't question the leader at times like this. As Anne says, that doesn't necessarily last long term. Do women and men approach communication rather differently at times of crisis? Would you like to draw our attention, Helen, first of all, to any female leader or head of state or head of a government at the moment? Well, I think Nicola Sturgeon has done

a really good job because she has this thing where she announces at the top of the press conference what she actually thinks people should do. Whereas Boris Johnson, you know, as a writer and a columnist myself, I recognise this tendency. Marina Hyde mentioned this. He has the tendency to feel he has to fill the entire space. So quite often he will give you quite a long preamble before getting to his point. And that does feel a very sort of journalist thing to do. But, you know, I think he's really struggled because it's not his natural register. You know, well, who's natural register is this, though, Helen, in the man's defence? Who would be at home in a situation like this?

Well, actually, weirdly, I think Emmanuel Macron in France has looked very comfortable doing this. And what's interesting about that is different ideas of strength. So Macron came out very early and put out a full lockdown and projected that as a type of strength. But for Boris Johnson and his tradition of politics, strength comes from individual liberty and freedom. This is a man who spent the 1990s writing columns about how Brussels was trying to interfere in our lives. Well, it turns out in a time of crisis like this, people want the state to, quote unquote, interfere in their lives. You know, they want reassurance. They want support. They want money from the government. So I think he's really struggled with the idea that that is a new type of strength that he has to try and talk about. People don't see it as, you know, the government

kind of telling them what to do. They kind of want the government to tell them what to do because they're afraid. Right. I have to put it to you, Helen, that Anne was pulling faces while you spoke. Only a small face. And I would if Helen were here. She knows me well enough to know why I was doing the, oh, here we go, eye roll. Look, one thing I do think we tend to do is we overestimate how well we think other leaders are handling

the crisis. There is something a bit British that we're always telling ourselves, well, they're the best at things, or we're like, we're really, really the worst. And actually, Boris Johnson, it isn't his natural métier, and you're quite right. And I liked what you had to say about the curse of the columnist. I thought it was much better last night, by the way, when he told us what he was going to tell us,

told us and told us again. That's also, I think, what Nicola Sturgeon has done effectively. Emmanuel Macron, yes, good at being Jupiter, good at being bossy. He has got whole and gripped his message. But there are 90,000 infringements happening in France of what he's announced. You don't see so much of that reported. We're told it's great to be strong. Angela Merkel is another great good example of that. Very consistent, very calm, lays it on the line. But she also has a lot of tension in Germany about the balance between the individual liberties of the lender,

the federal states and the centre. So what I'm suggesting is that everyone has a bit of a sort of national political character that comes to the fore. And I think it is something of a mistake to think that only Boris Johnson is in the eye of the storm on his communication style. They all are. Can I just ask whether you think women and men need different messages or a different style of delivery? Helen, what would you say about that? Well, that's, you know, there's millions of men and millions of women. So it's very hard to talk at population level. But we do know from the data that, you know, the YouGov polling that came out said, would you self-isolate if you had symptoms? And almost everybody said yes, but only 6% of women

said they wouldn't, but 13% of men said they wouldn't we know from the headline polling and you know these are these are small differences they're not universal by any means you know men are more worried about authority and they're less deferential to authority men are they say in surveys anyway they're less worried about what people think about them you know they're harder to sort of shame into compliance and and big political campaigns over the last couple of years have relied on different messages, which were gender overtones. So in the case of the Scottish referendum, there was very much a message aimed at women of, can you take this risk with your family?

Versus when we had the EU referendum, the idea behind stronger in was that this was a message particularly targeted at male voters to say, you know, this isn't about you kind of kowtowing to Brussels. Actually, what it is is about supranational organisations make you bigger and stronger. And you can kind of see, I mean, these are very crude generalisations, but you can kind of see that. I just think it's an interesting thing that struck me this morning. I suddenly feel I'm living in perhaps even more of a patriarchy in politics than I thought. I would like to see some

women, senior women politicians out there pushing out the message. We are hearing a lot from Boris Johnson. Inevitably, we're hearing from Matt Hancock, the health secretary. We heard this morning from Michael Gove on that very fraught issue of if you feel separated or divorced, are you able to move your children between the two homes, which is a real headache for people. I think Michael Gove has sort of accepted that he didn't get his communication quite right and gone at it again. But, you know, there are some women around in the cabinet. I would like to hear more from women in this crisis. It may be that, as Helen suggests, that it's a bit, why don't you message the men? Because they're a bit harder to reach and persuade to take a public health message. But nonetheless,

I'm missing it. I'm missing the big female voice in this crisis there, I've said it. Thank you for saying it. Well, I think you do really see why diversity is important. I know people think that it's often lip service or it's tokenistic, but actually in terms of government and representation, it's important having lots of people with lots of different life experiences in the room when the decisions are made. We know, for example, that Asian families are much more likely to have three generations living under one roof.

And actually, how does that affect the fact that you are trying to self-isolate vulnerable older people? You know, it's just really helpful to have people with different lives all contributing, because otherwise it's very easy to assume your family is what every family looks like. And that's, you know, that's no disrespect to them. It's something that we all do. What we really want to emphasise in this programme is the importance of key workers and the fact that a pretty sizeable number, I'm pretty certain the majority of key workers will be female, bearing in mind that well over 70% of NHS staff are female. Over 80% of care work is done by females. Do you think, Anne, this might lead to a change in the way we perceive people and what they do and their worth in our society? Yes, I do think so. And I think that has been, if you like, one of the few good upsides of

the crisis so far. And I think there is genuine sympathy, empathy for those doing long shifts. As you say, a lot of them are women, not only, but a lot of them are women in key workers who then finding it difficult to shop and difficult to get on with the practical aspects of their life. I think it's not so easy to say how that would actually translate into rewards. And at the moment, you have a bit of a suspension of normal economic debate, and you would have very much a lot of money being thrown to the front line. And I think that at some point does come home to roost. And that will be an interesting moment. I think there will be generally a sense that the NHS and those who have sailed in it at this particularly difficult

time do deserve more. I would just think I have have a bit of a reality check, perhaps, on what that's likely to look like when the bills come in. Yeah, Helen? I think it's going to be a really interesting insight into people will get a way to look into lives that they haven't necessarily led up to now, which is usually eye-opening. There's this great phenomenon of men becoming feminists when they have daughters, and they kind of think, how could someone say that to her? She's's very clever why are they telling her to you know sit still and be quiet and I think the same thing there will be lots of men who will now be left alone with the children and they will get an insight into how hard that job is you know something you hear from a lot of

women when their partner goes off to work for the first time and actually that that is an incredibly difficult job and actually sitting in an office, by contrast, can feel quite relaxed sometimes. The cry of, now you know, goes up across the nation, I think, on that one, Helen. Yeah, but also that some of them might really enjoy it and actually they might get a chance to reset some of the habits that people get into just because they're the kind of default way of living,

they're the path of least resistance. So I think it's really interesting that the schools thing, as your teacher was saying earlier, only one key worker, because I think the real fear was that you would end up in a situation if you'd asked for two key workers in order to get a free place at a school, that actually you would have had a lot of men in jobs, you know, with a partner who was, say, a nurse, and they would have refused to give up their work and all those things, you know, but it'll set my career back. But, you know, but I need this. I need the independence, all these things that women have always said about having children. Helen, thank you very much. And thank you. And I just want to mention some of the emails we've

had from listeners, some brilliant ones. There are happy people like Sue in Worcester. Well, content, I guess, rather than happy. She says, I'm 65. I'm living with my 72 year old husband. We are staying inside, but we're lucky to have a good garden and plenty of space I wanted to extol the virtues of crafting I'm doing paper crafting I'm making micro dioramas and altered art

incorporating embroidery and I'm excited about the extra time I'm going to have to do this I mentioned craft last week because I truly do think that Britain's crafters are the people who can show us the way over the coming weeks.

They'll be doing some brilliant, brilliant stuff. And we've also had much more serious emails. Here's an example. I think a lot of people will understand this completely. I'm 52.

I'm a single mother of a girl of 18. I've got asthma and another immune issue. I'm in the middle of the virus and my daughter now has symptoms as well. She has a boyfriend. He wants to come to see her.

She wants to see him. We've had a massive row. It was unpleasant and left me in tears. Basically, I'm being told I'm the worst person in the world. There'll be so many situations like that. And my heart goes out to that woman. And please do keep emailing the program. We do want to hear how you're getting on, how you're dealing with all these challenges.

Now, this is a really interesting interview with Camilla Pang, a young woman who at the age of eight was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. She really struggled to understand the world around her. She is now 26 and she is Dr. Camilla Pang. She has a PhD in biochemistry. Her book, Explaining Humans, What Science Can Teach Us About Life, Love and Relationships, is an attempt to take us inside her head, a place where so-called social norms are pretty tough to fathom? In terms of me feeling a little bit like an alien, I say a little bit, I mean completely like an alien, you just don't fit as if you've been plopped in the middle of nowhere, you're like it doesn't feel right. I was very young to the point where I was probably four or five really and that's when I really felt it. I was very frustrated as a child because it's one of the

misconceptions about people with autism not having they can't express themselves but I think actually it's hard because it's almost like everything's boiling underneath the surface but to have the skills to communicate right now takes a lot of work it's a lot of processing imagine if you didn't have any filters imagine if you didn't have any outlet but you felt it all inside wouldn't you end up banging your head against the wall? So I think a lot of people with autism have this innate bubbling underneath the surface. In terms of having a formal diagnosis, I was eight. And this was actually something that was mainly for my mum, my family and my teachers,

that they knew what was going on based on the research at that time and the books, so that they knew how to going on based on the research at that time and the book so that they knew how to help me best when my mum my mum never never really told me that I was you know autistic she never used the label because she knew that I just wouldn't I'd be indifferent to it I'd be like all right and unaffected because I'm still gonna carry on being me. Would it be fair to say that you retreated into a cardboard box or you just spent time in a cardboard box? So yeah, so when we moved house, there was a massive cardboard box I absolutely loved. I made a home in a cardboard box and happily so. The feeling of enclosure in a symmetric confined space is just fantastic, especially as it's an environment that is almost like this

is my own world and you see it and you're in it and it's just absolutely lovely it's almost like an isolated system and that you have control over apart from your mum feeding biscuits. Yeah I was gonna say she did find a way to. Yeah I made a cat flap. How long did you keep the cardboard box for? I think when I had my new room but it was quite hard to weigh me off it. I absolutely loved it. I think I used it as a den. My mum was like, you can still use it, but this is your room. You sleep in here, you sleep in your normal bed, but you can still go in it whenever you want.

And I think having that freedom, her accepting me, yeah, she likes cardboard box, so let her go on with it. Your mum does sound absolutely brilliant. She's fantastic. Is what she did the right way to be with a child who has autism? Yeah, she nailed it. And she read books, but she didn't do it to the letter. She did it by knowing her own child and having no judgments as to whether her child is sleeping in a cardboard box or feels the need to entertain herself for four hours by pushing a wheelbarrow around the garden she's like well

if Millie's happy I'm happy and if she's safe then that's great for example um I feel it's accepting what the child likes and she could be doing something she could be playing with barbies brilliant wouldn't that be ideal my daughter plays with barbies but no I absolutely loved pushing a wheelbarrow around the garden there's no other reason just because and I think it's having the lack of judgment and open-mindedness but then calling them in as if there's no social preconceptions of what she's doing I think she nailed that in and yeah she nailed it. And, yeah, she nailed it. And do you know why you went to boarding school?

Yeah, so I think there's two main reasons. I think the first that comes to mind is the fact that I needed routine. I liked the structure. I liked the smaller classes and the ability to have a mentor. But when it came to the boarding element of it, I absolutely hated commuting. I still don't like it to this day because why would you want to leave your home comfort to an uncertain sensory overload of social nuances?

And when I found out that my bus driver in question, he smoked and he smelt, I was like... That was it for you, wasn't it? I was like, I'm all right, I'm not going on that. And Mum was like, you need to go to school. And so over time, I went to boarding school and I absolutely loved it. There were teachers that loved me and I loved them, but there were other ones that didn't. And I think I was quite polarising

because if I liked you as a teacher and liked the subject, then I connected with it and it was great. But I think when it came to learning, because I made these models in my head describing human behaviour and also when you learn science itself and also maths, and when I see something that didn't quite match, I thought if I knew a theory that was beyond what I've been taught or I had my own different interpretation of it,

I found that actually really hard. And it was hard to get through as I found that actually really hard and it's hard to get through as a teacher to be like normally it's like this I'm like yeah but why isn't it like this and they're like but it's like this and I'm like no I've done my analysis so I think from a teacher point of view to break it down to its discrete fundamental principles step by step really helped and i think what boarding school was useful for is that everything was spoon-fed you eat at a certain time you exercise certain time everything's allocated but

um actually reminiscing of that makes me realize how much i need that as an adult because as much as be oh you want to make time to do painting in the evenings but me I'm like am I am I hungry it's 3 cpm I feel like I should be hungry but I'm not and sometimes you don't know what you need and I think that's one of the hardest parts of which I do miss still from school is people telling me what I need when and why yes because you your senses are all over the place you it's hard to capture what you need and why. You might be cold but not realise that you need to put a jacket on. A part in the book when you describe other children playing a game,

forgive me, I can't remember what they were playing, but you were just sitting down watching their movements and trying to, well, just actually taking a certain amount of pleasure from the way they moved around each other. Yeah, I actually like that. Not in a weird way, I say weird, but not in a stalkery way. But in a way in which I just loved looking at nature. And due to this day I go to Hyde Park,

I like to see the elements in the native environment and see how they move. The game itself was just, I don't know, it could be football, it could just be Pokemon, it could be Conkers, but there was a certain kind of silent, I wouldn't say politics, but I guess that's the only word I can describe it, that fascinated me because I wasn't sensitive to it. I wasn't drawn into it like I was made from the same stuff as it. I was looking at it from the outside and I thought, oh, this is interesting. It's almost like looking at

fire. Now, you will know that autism is a spectrum that encompasses all sorts of different people. Yes. You are a highly intelligent young woman. Thanks. What you are. And there are many, many people with autism who have extraordinary challenges. Yeah, they do.

And this is something that I have been very much aware of. So I'm not here to trivialise mental health. No. but I'm not here to trivialise mental health. I'm here to expose that actually we need mental health support in the right ways so that we can reveal these hidden treasures that are just so beautiful and essential to human evolution. So yes, there are struggles. This is why I'm speaking for those who I can translate between both sides. And I think that's a very powerful place to be

because I know how hard it is to the point where how autism is portrayed in the media, but I also know how to look to the other side. And I want to be able to raise awareness of how amazing it can be, but also how hard it can be. I mean, I was going to swear, but we're on the radio, so I'm not going to. But when it comes to raising awareness and being almost an advocate for those that need it,

we need an increased awareness for autism, but also the type of support, because vaccinations and psychotics are useful to a certain extent. But when it comes to managing autism itself and enabling the spirit of the human to come out as a human, we need better support for those on the autistic spectrum, but for the carers and the schools. You sound, and I don't want to put words into your mouth,

that you are embracing yourself, that you are happy to be you, you just want the world, and you regard your role, actually, as being a kind of bridge between... Yes. Take it up, go on. Yeah, no, bridging both sides. So, first of all, I wouldn't say I'm happy with myself. I'm happy with... I've accepted the shape that I am and what I have to offer, and that's a nice place to be.

I don't wake up every day with sunflowers on my head with the sunshine on my face that doesn't happen that often but I know how to manage it and that's what I mean when I say I'm happy myself is because okay there are some days that are really hard quite a lot of days but I know that they're worth it I know how to manage them and I think that's really important but to be able to enable to you to do what you love and be proud of it and be like, yeah, I've done what I've done justice. When it comes to being a bridge, I'd like to be able to speak for those who are in a place that they feel like they can't. They're like, oh, I want to be able to resonate with people so that they can grow into their own form and come out from the soil, if that makes any sense. She was fantastic. That was Camilla Pang and her book is called Explaining Humans, What Science Can Teach Us About Life, Love and Relationships.

And it was recorded, I think, about a week ago, maybe 10 days ago. And of course, that was just that live reference in there to going to Hyde Park which isn't something we can do now. Right we are going to talk about gardening I said we would and we will do in the company of Amy Grant Cumberbatch who's the founder of Grown a gardening club for women of colour. Amy good morning to you. Morning. And also joining us Flo Hedlum, a professional gardener since 2012. And in 2017, she became Gardeners World's first ever black presenter. Flo, good morning to you. Morning, Jane. Hi. Yeah. How are you both?

Good. All right. We're all just so British. We're good. We're not good. We're run ragged. But let's just pretend. OK, we'll stick with it. Amy, I know that you grew up in barbados so um tell me when your relationship with gardening began well funnily enough although i have a lot of um amazing kind of plant related memories from living in barbados as a child um one of which we had a cherry tree in our back garden where monkeys used to sit and eat the cherries but funnily enough at that age I wasn't actually that interested particularly in gardening although I was I did love the plants and flora and fauna around me I've really become interested

in gardening over the past few years firstly through houseplants I have a lot of houseplants and I got really into indoor gardening and then just recently I've managed to get my first garden as an adult and that's when I really kind of got into outdoor gardening too. And Flo, what about you? When did I get into gardening? Yeah. Well, I mean, my parents came from the Caribbean and they had a culture of growing.

So I think I grew up with just seeing my parents tend the garden and produce coming from the garden to the table. But it wasn't until I was an adult and actually got my first garden, my first house and garden, that I started to sort of tentatively sort of cultivate. But I think it's kind of something that's been within my sort of DNA because, you know, it was part of my childhood, seeing my parents and helping them out. But the plain fact is, Flo, that gardening in Britain is not, it's still not particularly diverse, is it? No, not especially, no.

I mean, there are two sort of examples. When I was studying at college, the first year I was studying, there was another black woman, a Jamaican woman in my class. And then over the course of five years, there are a couple of other women of color within my classes. And then a good friend of mine who I'm now working with, and she's a black woman. And we sort of met at college. But also within the industry, no we're not we're underrepresented we're not that visible okay and and why i mean it's a could it be something to do with land ownership i think it's it could possibly be i think you know it's interesting so another

another story so um before i um got involved with gardeners World, I met another black gardener at a garden centre. We both looked at each other and went, oh, wow, you, me, yes. And when we were subsequently having a conversation, one of his theories was that, well, I think, you know, going back through history and through slavery, gardening is seen as something quite lowly

and not something that you would take up professionally. And that is one theory. I think, yes, land ownership, you know, a lot of people don't have gardens or assume that, you know, you need an outdoor space to garden and you're saying you could do it indoors. But it's, yeah, I think also, you know, being something and you work with your hands is probably something that you know our parents have said you know they want us to do

professional you know career jobs so it's not something that was particularly encouraged and growing up i didn't see anybody you know who looked like me was doing it and i think sometimes you need to see someone doing it to to know that you can do it of course um amy tell us about your your favorite houseplant, because I'm one of those people who can basically kill anything, really. It seems everything withers on my watch. You could apply that to almost any aspect of my life, in fact. So your houseplant recommendations,

what would you suggest for the real novice? For the real novice, I think I would probably recommend, I don't have one personally but something like a snake plant is really good if you are the kind of person who's killed a lot of houseplants it doesn't need a lot of watering and it's very forgiving if you're kind of ready to move up from the snake plant sort of level i'd recommend a rubber tree they too are very forgiving they can put up with not, you know, they need a bit of light, but not loads and loads.

And they, you know, they've got beautiful foliage. And I also love the way that their new leaves unravel. It starts from a red spike and then they kind of unfold and the red part eventually drops off and it's just beautiful to watch. Now back in the real world, because life will resume again, we know that, you were organising plant swaps weren't you where people get together and share stuff? Yes absolutely so I think that's one of the nicest things about

plants and gardening is that ability to share so you know if you've got plants chances are you've got some cuttings too so things like spider plants and pilliards are really prolific in the amount of kind of what they, you know, of babies they offshoot. And it's lovely to kind of share those with others. And I think I thought it was quite a natural thing to do to arrange the first meetup around that. And then that way it can be free as well so people just bring along the bits and bobs you know the plants and the cuttings that they may have and then you know chat and share them with others and that will happen it will happen at some point we know that and just really briefly flow um because people are down at the moment and honestly i wouldn't blame anyone spring is on the

way the weather perhaps unfortunately actually is. Things are happening out there. Yes, spring has sprung, yes. And I think, yes, it's a great time. I was out in my garden yesterday for about five hours. It's a great time just to get out and potter, I think, and have a bit of a tidy up or, you know, also a good time to buy seeds and start sowing seeds indoors or a little bit later outdoors.

So just do something just to feel that actually you have some control over, you know, creating and nurturing something. It's really important. That is gardeners Flo Hedlum and Amy Grant enthusing us with what does lie ahead because we'll be out on our balconies, I'm sure, over the coming weeks and months, if you're lucky enough to have one, if you're lucky enough to have a back garden, for heaven's sake, make the most of it.

And if you've just got a shelf, go online and order a house plant. I've got a few going. And so far, actually, I said in the programme that they were all dead. Three are still blooming, would be an exaggeration, but still with us. So maybe I've turned a corner.

Who knows? I am making slow progress um thanks to everybody who emailed us today um andrew says good grief the chef working in london schools just said she's cooking for children still attending on between five and ten pence per head per day she did say it would normally be 75 pence per head per day. She did say it would normally be 75 pence per head per day. I'm not sure why their budget has been cut. That's a good point. And I should actually have asked that question. So apologies. Anonymous, my daughter teaches in a primary school. They thought they would have 20 children yesterday. And she and her colleagues spent the weekend preparing the premises and the staffing rota. But actually, only five children did turn up.

There was no word from the parents whose children didn't. This meant that two of the teachers were sent home, very upset, actually, that they'd risked exposing themselves and their families by leaving home unnecessarily. At the same time, teachers are fielding calls from parents who want to send their children in, saying they are entitled because one parent is a key worker although the other parent is able to look after them

one family even wanted to send a child who was a bit under the weather parents must understand that their thoughtfulness that their thoughtlessness selfishness is increasing my daughter's risk of contracting coronavirus and indirectly the risk to my son-in-law and my grandchildren. Please don't take advantage of the selflessness being displayed by my daughter and her colleagues and thousands of other people like her across the country. Well, I mean, I couldn't have made any of those points better, of course, that's absolutely right. And Louise Nichols, our executive headteacher, did say exactly that, that it's in these situations where there's a couple, one is a key worker, that these issues

are emerging. If you can possibly cope without using the school premises, please do so. That is the message. Anne says, my daughter is a school chef in a primary school she's working this week as a key worker making up the lunches after this week it's unclear if she can continue but it would be so good if the company she works for and the school would allow her to continue to provide lunches for vulnerable children and families as a takeaway service. She has two sons and the younger one is going into school with her. Right, OK, thank you for that. And yes, it's brilliant that your daughter is doing that. And I also hope from the point of view of those vulnerable kids

that she is able to keep doing it. That would be fantastic. We discussed communication at a time of crisis with Anne McElvoy and Helen Lewis. An emailer says, apropos who has the clarity and the charisma and what have you, and who feels comfortable with it, apart from Nicola Sturgeon and Emmanuel Macron, listen to Leo Varadkar, the Taoiseach, of course, addressing the Irish nation. Absolute fluency, articulate, concrete, no flannel, accessible, statesmanlike.

I recommend it to listeners. From Chris, clear communications in a crisis. I think the Prime Minister of Denmark, that's Meta Fredriksson, and Andrew Cuomo, who's the Governor of New York State, they're both excellent. They're plain speaking, evidence-based and straight from the shoulder. Just what we need from leaders in a crisis. Penny, I can't believe that at a time of crisis, you've got journalists arguing about Boris Johnson's style of delivery and extending the argument to, as per usual, bringing it down to gender roles. I always say to everybody who

makes comments like that about Woman's Hour, there is a clue in the title. We're sort of here to approach things from exactly that perspective. From Paul, I'm listening to your two commentators, Helen and Anne, defend, you see, this is the different perspective, defending Boris Johnson's performance, because it's not his natural register. To begin with, that is all he's being asked to do, lead the country in a time of crisis, not adopt the tone of a columnist. Secondly, if speaking to the public in a time of crisis is not his natural register, why was he elected?

It must have been for his reputation for honesty, or perhaps the common touch that he brings to the job of uniting the country. Please hold the Prime Minister to what he is supposed to be doing and don't make excuses for his shortcomings. Lots of admiration for our contributor, Dr Camilla Pang. A long-time listener and first-time emailer, says Paul, I was diagnosed with ASD at 50 last year and Camilla is describing it so right in so much of what she says, especially about the lack of filters. From Abby, I've been isolated at home for eight months with my four children as my eldest has very complex autism and social anxiety and demand avoidance and hasn't left her room. Yes, read that again. Hasn't left her room for eight months. I also have three children under the age of five. Nobody understands. Services aren't brilliant. She stays wrapped in a sleeping bag because it makes her feel safe.

Nobody understands how hard this is. I am her only advocate. She's intelligent and lovely, but few see this. Abby, what a set of circumstances. What on earth can I say about that? Except that I hope that listening to Camilla brought you, perhaps comfort would be too strong a word, but just an awareness that somebody is out there trying, as Camilla said, I thought brilliantly, to build bridges between these two communities. Olivia says, Camilla is extraordinarily brilliant and her beautiful, authentic and honest book makes me see the world in a different way. It got me more excited about proteins than I thought ever possible

and it makes me laugh. And from AT, fantastic to hear this. We need to hear more from autistic women who often go through life without a diagnosis, which would give them the access to the support they need because they tend to cultivate an ability to mask their struggles. Yes, I think that's right. That is something we've discussed over the years on the programme, the whole business of the fact that women tend to be diagnosed later in

life, if at all, with conditions on the autistic spectrum. So thanks for reminding us about that. And on gardening, Jane, I'd like to suggest sharing how to grow your own cheap, easy grow food at home using very little spare space. Unused flower beds, raised beds, vertical growing and making good use of resources you may normally chuck back in the black bin. This is the planting season and sun is vitamin D, good for health and exercise for all. Yes, I think maybe that is something we'll revisit

or discuss in the weeks ahead. All ideas welcome because obviously we are not entirely dependent on you but we welcome your input because these are going to be different times, there'll be different sorts of programmes, we'd definitely welcome your ideas. And from Jill, it's occurred to one of our community members that people who are self-isolating because they're vulnerable through disability or age might appreciate volunteers doing their garden for them, which would boost their spirits and also provide them with veg later in the season.

Perhaps this is something that local gardening clubs would be able to organise. Yeah, in normal times, I'd jump at that one, Jill, but I guess we've got to be really careful at the moment about people entering other people's properties, walking through them in order to access the garden. At the moment, we've got to focus on limiting our social contact. So yes, I understand what you're getting at, but I guess that just wouldn't be something we could recommend or endorse at the moment. And to Isabel, who sent in this fantastic image, it's something you need to see really, but I'll try and do justice to it. She says that Jane mentioned that crafters

will have the last laugh over the coming weeks and months. So I absolutely mean it. And Isabel has supplied this image of a front room that is entirely covered in crocheted blankets. You've got crocheted curtains, lampshades, the cushions, of course, you've got teddies, rugs. This is Isabel's idea of what her home is going to look like by the end of all this. Thanks, everybody. It's been challenging. It will continue to be so. And all I can say from all of us here is that we're trying

to rise to it, but we want your help. So please keep your thoughts coming. And Jenny will be here tomorrow. Around the world, there are people quietly achieving extraordinary things. Do you know one of them? Do you know any of them? Is there an unsung hero in your life? Someone who deserves recognition? Tell us all about them on bbcworldservice.com slash inspirations. They could end up in the finals of the BBC Inspirations Awards.

We're taking nominations until the 9th of April at 12 hours GMT. The terms and privacy notice are on our website. BBC Inspirations. Inspirations Awards. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.