Woman's Hour - Women of Northern Ireland; Baroness Nicky Morgan; Looking good for your age; Menopause drugs update

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Starting on BBC Two, BBC Northern Ireland and BBC iPlayer tonight, Once Upon A Time In Northern Ireland gives voice to the people who lived through the Troubles, sharing intimate stories from all sides of the conflict. The series airs today on the anniversary of the referendum that ratified the Good Friday Agreement, on 22nd May 1998. Nuala is joined by two women, Denise and Bernadette, who chose to take part in the series to share their stories. As the Online Safety Bill progresses through the House of Lords, the former culture secretary Baroness Morgan of Cotes has tabled an amendment to the Bill calling for a Violence Against Women and Girls Code of Practice. She said a code is desperately needed to specifically address the harms to women and girls. Further discussions will take place this week on the Bill. Baroness Nicky Morgan joins Nuala to discuss.How do you feel if someone tells you you’re 'looking good for your age'? Not so secretly thrilled? Slightly indignant? Why are we likely to take it as a compliment if someone believes you look younger than you actually are? The American businesswoman and lifestyle guru Martha Stewart recently became the oldest woman on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue, and has been praised for looking less than her 81 years. Why? Nuala is joined by Sam Baker of The Shift podcast, and Lucy Baker who blogs as Geriatric Mum.A new menopause drug to deal with hot flushes could be available by the end of the year in the UK. The non-hormonal drug fezolinetant has been hailed as 'game-changing' by some experts. At the same time, the supply of the HRT drug Utrogestan has been restricted by the government because of shortages. To find out more, Nuala is joined by Dr Annice Mukherjee, a consultant endocrinologist and visiting professor at the University of Coventry; and Dr Nina Wilson, an NHS GP and founder of the One Woman Health menopause clinic.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, for you this morning, we have Baroness Nicky Morgan with us. We're going to discuss why she is calling for a violence against women and girls code of practice and wants it to be included in the online safety bill. It will put the onus on social media firms to prevent abuse with potential fines or jail for those who don't comply.

So we're going to get into that proposal in just a moment. Also, I've been watching Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland and it tells of the troubles, but through the stories of the people who lived through them. Now, we're going to hear from two women who have compelling, at times shocking, experiences to recount about how the conflict affected them

and their families. Now, this is not about the politics. You might have seen the headlines today about Sinn Féin dominating local elections. This, instead, is about what it was like to be a mother, a wife, a daughter during the 70s, 80s and early 90s in Northern Ireland. And we don't often hear the stories of the daily lives of girls and women from that time. So I'm really glad Bernadette and Denise will also be with us today. Let me see.

Maybe over the past week or so, you've heard conversations about Martha Stewart at 81 on the cover of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition. Yes, in that swimsuit. And you might have heard, doesn't she look good for her age? Well, we want to delve into that line. Good for her age. What does it mean? Younger? Somehow better than expected when past a certain age? How did you feel if somebody said it about

you? Maybe you've said it about someone. And why is not looking your age seen as a compliment by many? I did think about this. What if somebody thought you looked much older than you are? How would you react to that? I want to hear from you. Lots of you getting in touch already because we popped it up on social media. That's at BBC Women's Hour.

But you can text the programme also. That number is 84844. You can email us through our website or indeed for a voice note or a WhatsApp message that number instead is 03700 100 444

also we're going to get into the menopause a little bit maybe you saw a new non-hormonal drug to treat hot flashes it's been talked about so we want to talk about it too that's all coming up but let us begin by turning to the online safety bill.

It is progressing through the House of Lords. The former Culture Secretary, Conservative Peer, Baroness Morgan of Coates, has tabled an amendment to this bill calling for a violence against women and girls code of practice, as I mentioned. So she says a code is desperately needed to specifically address the harms to women and girls. And following that debate in the Lords, further discussions are taking place this week on the bill. And I'm happy to say Baroness Nicky Morgan joins us now.

Good morning. Good morning. Now, as I understand it, one of the issues that you have with the bill, as it stands, is this language. There's no specific mention of women and girls. Why does it matter? Well, it matters because women and girls are 27 times more likely to be harassed and abused online than men and boys. This is not to say that there are pockets of the internet and social media platforms

on which everybody is suffering, you know, unwelcome behaviour and attention. But as I say, there's a particular issue affecting women and girls. We know issues relating to women in public life, for example, particularly, obviously, sadly, women of colour will, you know, find that they're even suffering even greater levels of abuse. Women who say things and suddenly receive 300 rape threats, you know, following just putting up. But girls, sadly, are more likely to be abused. And recent figures from the Internet Watch Foundation, which look at the most serious forms of child sexual abuse online, will also say that girls will like to be abused so what we're saying is that what the bill does is it provides for codes of practice already in relation to some specific illegal content so terrorism and child sexual abuse and other illegal content and what that means is that

Ofcom will have these codes and if the platforms are following them complying with them that's a good defense actually for the platforms to say well we're doing what you're asking us to do in terms of looking out for and removing this type of content or living up to our terms of service and we're saying well actually uh for um violence against women and girls which this government has decided rightly is a national threat should be reflected in the strategic policing requirement why would you not have a vision which asks the platforms and the search engines to look at all of this right from the start

when they're designing features, as well as how they moderate content and how they support victims? So with this particular code of practice, if I've understood it correctly, if social, the onus is really on social media firms and if they don't comply,

they could face a 10% fine of their global turnover. Is that correct? And also for repeat offenders, potentially jail terms. Yeah, absolutely, potentially. And if they don't comply, and if Ofcom have told them that they've got to do something, then fines or potential jail sentences could follow. But actually, that's obviously, that's an extreme end. And also, what we want to do, and I'm very grateful to the End Violence Against Women Coalition, to Glitch, to Refuge, to Professor Lorna Wood, who drafted the code, and there's amazing support from outside.

And actually, what we want to do is just to make, it's about cultural change. And I think that's what the bill is trying to achieve as well, which is, as you say, about putting the responsibility on the platforms. But that cultural change where? Within the social media companies? Yes, yes. I mean, ultimately what you want is for the boards of these companies to be asking the question of their executives,

you know, how are you protecting the most vulnerable? How are you protecting women and girls from the levels of abuse that we have seen, as well as dealing with other illegal content? And I think one of the reasons the government is reluctant on this is because they feel very strongly, and there's a big debate going on in the Lords at the moment, as there was in the House of Commons, which is what is the government's role in relation to content that may not be illegal, but is deeply, deeply harmful. So, you know, for example, I say the proliferation of rape threats,

for example, or cyber stalking or where Refuge will say that we know that domestic abuse victims now have another front in which they can be harassed, which is online, for example, and they have a whole tech hotline to help victims to deal with all of that. And so the government is saying, well, if you're over 18, then actually you should be able to decide what content you see and we'll leave it in your hands. But again, this is putting the onus back onto victims, onto women and girls to protect themselves. Whereas you say, what we want is that cultural change amongst the platforms so that when they're designing a feature or rolling something else out or looking at how their service works they're thinking from the start how do i make sure that my users um have a

you know are not harris in the first place uh we make it very clear that we won't stand for such behavior but equally if someone does need to report something, we make it as easy as possible. And do you think that the social media companies are able to do that? Because it seems to me, speaking, and we've had Georgia Harrison and Emily Atack on Women's Hour, who are high profile campaigners for this, that the social media companies always seem to be a couple of steps behind where those that are the perpetrators of this abuse are. I mean, do you feel that in fact they have the technology to be able to do it if the will was there? Well, I think, yes, I do. And I think your point about if the will is there is very much, you know, very important. At the end of the day, the companies, obviously they are companies, they are there to

turn a profit for their shareholders. And I understand all of that. But a lot of this is driven by advertising. So one of the other issues we have been talking about in the House of Lords is how the algorithms amplify content. Now, that is something, and I'm no algorithm expert, but the way these things work is, of course, people, they're serving up this harmful content. So people looking at this particular content all the time. And I think that's what people like Georgia Harris and Emily Airtag would say. It's the level of amplification on the social media platforms. And that is absolutely something that the platforms have a choice over how they make that work or don't work.

And those platforms that have said we take violence against women and girls seriously actually can make a virtue of it and it becomes a much better place. But that's pretty limited at the moment. So much of this is about getting the platforms and search engines to take responsibility for what's on there. And as I say, when they say they have terms of service

that say we don't stand for abuse, we'll live up to that then. And that's what Ofcom will be regulating. So that is the social media firms you've mentioned or alluded to the government as well. Let me bring some of the words of Lord Parkinson on behalf of the government

when you raised it last week, pointing to the changes that have been made in the bill. You're looking for women and girls to be specifically mentioned. He says, consultation with the Victims Commissioner and the Domestic Abuse Commissioner,

the introduction of specific offences to deal with cyberflash and other sorts of particular harms, which we know disproportionately affect women and girls. We're taking an approach throughout the work of the bill to reflect those harms and to deal with them because of that, respectfully. I do not think we need a specific code of practice for any particular group of people, however large, however disproportionately they are affected. He also said the voices of women and girls have been heard very strongly and have influenced the approach

that we have taken in the bill. I do not think that the code, my noble friend sets out, is the right way to go about solving this issue because listening to that, it sounds like there's not much prospect of this amendment being successful. I mean, do you still hold out hope?

Well, I do. Governments haven't been at the dispatch box and been a minister out hope? Well, I do. Governments, having been at the dispatch box and being a minister, I know what it's like. Governments have to hold a line. And at the moment, we're having a stage in the Lords where lots of amendments are being discussed

and things will be put on the table. As you say, there are lots of discussions then happening, you know, outside the House of Lords Chamber. I think I'll just say three quick things. One is I welcome the Domestic Abuse Commissioner and Victims Commissioner being consulted, but we don't have a Victims Commissioner at the moment. So I welcome the Domestic Abuse Commissioner and Victims Commissioner being consulted. But we don't have a victims commissioner at the moment. So the Domestic Abuse Commissioner supports this code of practice.

Secondly, it's great. We have specific criminal offences such as cyber flashing. But actually, that doesn't really build a holistic, positive culture for women and girls online. And I go back to the point that I'm afraid Lord Parkinson couldn't really answer which is if we think violence against women and girls is a national threat and we're making it a big thing for police to focus on then why we would not say the same when we know how many people spend time online and particularly our younger generation for whom there's no distinction online and offline now it's all one. I will also let let's say this bill, online harms bill, which, of course, has been making its way for such a long time with various amendments or bolt-ons, as we might call it. Whatever way it comes through, let's say that it does, with or without this amendment you're discussing. Do you have faith that when it's completed, that it can really tackle online abuse in a substantial way?

Or are people expecting really an unachievable panacea? I think it will shift the way the platforms are. They have to take responsibility for the content and they will have to be very clear in their terms of service. And they now have somebody in the form of Ofcom, who I have to say, I think have impressively already stepped up their efforts and Melanie Dawes, the chief executive, is taking this very seriously. So the first time they've been regulated. But I think the platform's reach is enormous. And I think that we are the first country to be legislating in this way, which is good for the UK. But of course, these platforms are global. So it's a big step in the right direction. I think ultimately, pretty well every parliamentarian wants this bill to to go through

but we've got a lot more to come over the years I think in terms of regulating these particular companies and sectors. I mentioned social media companies sometimes appearing on the back foot you're a former education secretary and culture secretary do you think the government appearing on the back foot. You're a former Education Secretary and Culture Secretary. Do you think the government was on the back foot in realising exactly the harms that could be really dished out, I suppose, particularly to women and girls

when it came to an online world? I think that all governments actually have been. I think these companies have become very big, very influential without any regulation. But I'm speaking more about your specific time. Well, we had already started. So I think when I was Education Secretary,

which is now, it started nine years ago, we had begun to see the influence of the online world. But at that point, I think it was probably still not understood quite how widely influential it was going to be. And so by the time I became culture secretary, Jeremy Wright, my predecessor, and Theresa May's government had recognised and published the outline, the first consultation. But I think I think everybody actually has underestimated the significant impact of the online world, particularly, I think, accelerated by the pandemic and everybody. And in a totally separate vein of work for the House of Lords, I've been looking at online digital fraud, which, again, massively increased because

of the fact that we all live our lives so much online and bank online and everything else now. So I think we are all catching up. And that is one of the problems with this. We will always be catching up and we're debating as well. How do we keep the law current, this bill, when we've got the developments in AI and the metaverse? So that's another thing about how do you keep this relevant? That's why I think we'll be legislating on this for quite a long time to come. Yes, it does feel very much that AI is coming to the forefront of many of those discussions, particularly over the past couple of months. May I move on to another couple of issues away

from the online harms bills for a moment. We were talking about, of course, your various positions as Education Secretary and Culture Secretary, but let's talk instead about today's Home Secretary. Do you think Suella Braverman should resign? Well, I think there should be an investigation. I think the

ethics advisor to the government, to the Prime Minister, does need to look at whether in fact there's been a breach of the ministerial code. I wouldn't say that anyone should resign until that investigation has happened, but I think an urgent investigation is needed. And if a breach? Well, I think if a breach, then I think it's, I think for any minister, if you're found to have breached the ministerial code, there is no option but to resign. Could I right now be speaking to the next BBC chair? No, I don't think so. I think I've got lots of other great things that I'm doing. It's a wonderful position, but we'll just have to have to see who puts their name in the frame when finally the job advert goes up. Would you put

yours? I mean, I think it's a great position, but honestly, I've got lots of other things that I'm doing at the moment. And I think one of the trouble, one of the problems is that you have to give up an awful lot in order to do such a good position. Would it be worth it? Well, I think it's that's for others to say. I mean, look, I think it is a very important position. And I think one of the things that the BBC and the government have to grapple with is, do you want an ex-politician doing it or do you want somebody else? Thank you so much for speaking to us. Just before I let you go as well, just thinking of the online harms bill,

which I didn't ask you and I probably should have. I mean, is that something, that kind of online abuse, been something that you have been subjected to? Because I know so many female politicians have been. Yes, absolutely. I spoke in the debate last week about the first death threat that I had, and I've had a number more. And the reason that I couldn't get the social media platform to take action was because it didn't talk about killing me. It talked about Joe Coxing me. And so, of course, the online moderator computer didn't see that as a threat.

So I had to get to a human being, which, of course, is an MP I was able to do eventually. But lots of women don't have that option. So, yes, you know, I have absolutely. I think I think sadly, any woman in public life will have tales of how they have suffered online abuse. It's not just about women in public life, but I think, and that's a broader issue, which is I don't want to put people off going into these high profile roles. Thank you so much for speaking to us. Of course, we're going to continue

following this Baroness and Nicky Morgan speaking to us about the online safety bill, among many other things. Thank you. Thank you. I want to turn now to, as mentioned, menopause drugs. So there's a new drug.

This is to deal with hot flushes. It could be available by the end of the year in the UK, non-hormonal, I should say. The drug is called Fezolinatant. It's hailed as game-changing by some experts. It has already been approved in the States, I should mention. And we want to talk about that, but also about the supply of the HRT drug,

which is hormonal. Let me see, can I get this correctly? Utrogestan. I will be corrected by my guests if I haven't got that right. It's been restricted by the government because of shortages. The Department of Health and Social Care

said the maker of the hormone replacement therapy was increasing supply, but that shortages could last until late this year so later on this year. Let's find out a little bit more about the impact of these stories. I am joined by Dr. Anise Mukherjee, consultant endocrinologist and visiting professor at the University of Coventry and Dr. Nina Wilson, an NHS GP and also founder of One Woman Health menopause clinic. You're both very welcome. Let me start with you, Anise. The drug Fesolinatant, non-hormonal.

How does it work? Well, it is a game changer in many respects because it's first in its kind. It is a brand new medication. So we call it first in class. It's targeting the exact mechanism within the brain within the hypothalamus that triggers the menopause hot flash flush uh sweating mechanism we call it the vasomotor symptoms of menopause it's so it's not targeting oestrogen deficiency it doesn't work through oestrogen so it doesn't have all the other benefits of o and HRT. But for those women who can't take HRT or for whom it's problematic, doesn't work, causes side effects, women need options.

So this is potentially another option for women, especially targeting those symptoms. And actually, those symptoms can cause sleeplessness, fatigue, anxiety. It can affect work so having option having this option is really good and the research looks incredibly promising um side effects are pretty low it works very quickly and very effectively so it's good news okay and do you think um the listeners uh that are tuning in now that it will be accessible in the UK soon? Well, I think there are two issues. One, it's a safe treatment, so it may well become accessible.

It may well be accepted by our regulators. But the problem with a brand new treatment, and I don't know the answer to this, I think it's likely to be extremely expensive. So for it to be available to all women who may need treatment, who, you know, for whatever reason, HRT is not suitable. So I just add that HRT is the first line treatment for menopause symptoms. But if it's prohibitively expensive, our sort of National Institute of Clinical Excellence that decides on, you know, effectiveness, cost effectiveness and other factors within NHS prescribing, you know, it may not be accessible to women as soon as many of us would like. Really interesting. Well, let me turn, Nina, to you. Let's talk about instead eutrogestan.

This is a drug used to treat symptoms of menopause, but it's been restricted because of shortages. Tell us a little bit more about the drug, who's using it and also about the shortages. Sure. So eutrogestan is micronised progesterone. And so it is the only licensed brand available where the progesterone is the same chemical structure that we have in our own bodies. For years, we've been using progestogens, which are man-made synthetic chemicals that are like progesterone, but they're not exactly the same. And there are different side effect profiles and slightly different risk profiles associated with each of them. And eutrogestan has become very popular recently for a number of reasons. And we've seen so much more of a conversation about menop supplied in this country than we have ever before, and certainly more than last year, there are still shortages.

And that's what's going on. So what are people supposed to do if they come up against a shortage? So, you know, so it's tricky and we're certainly seeing an increase in requests and queries and concerns coming into general practice so it's generating a significant amount of work with needing to find a suitable alternative for somebody and so that's what we're doing we have to come up with with something else and that might mean a short period of time on a synthetic progesterone a different medication or it might mean using another kind of progesterone, but outside its product license.

And then it really becomes a question of discussing the risks and benefits with women, which, as you can imagine, is time consuming and creates a degree of anxiety for them. But it is very necessary for people to take the progesterone in some form. That's absolutely key. Yes, the progesterone is needed. If you're taking HRT and you're taking oestrogen and you still have your womb, or possibly if you have endometriosis, it's necessary to take progesterone alongside it. You can't just take the oestrogen on its own in those circumstances. So for people, the advice would be to get in touch with their GP to try and figure out, I don't know, some other form of progesterone if that one is not available. Well, if they can't get the eutrogestan, then yes, you need to have a discussion about an

alternative form and to get that and to take it. I think what the severe shortage protocol is aiming to do is to make sure that people have, to try to even out that supply and demand so that people can get hold of it. They might not get the full prescription in one go, but it's to try to manage stocks so we don't get a situation like we had with toilet roll in lockdown.

You know, it's about trying to make sure as many people who need it can get it. Not stockpiling, waiting until the supplies will get back up and they will get back up, you think? So my understanding is that the company are working very hard to increase supply. And that means creating an extra factory, for example. But as you can imagine, it takes time to get that up and running and online. So we may see some shortages for the rest of the year. And it appears to be worse in some parts of the country than others. Right. Which we've come up against before.

Of course, a postcode lottery, as they call it. Let me turn back to you, Anis. Restrictions also existing for Progynova. These are patches. Talk us through, talk our listeners through a little bit of what's happening there. Progynova is an oestrogen patch. So it's a little bit different to the eutrogestan story with there being more natural formulations of oestrogen that women can get in patches, but it's still incredibly unsettling for women when they have to, you know, when they have to possibly or face the risk in the future of not being able to get their regular hormone treatment. These shortages have been going on for a very long time.

And, you know, I have to say, the government have done what they can, the pharmaceutical companies are saying that they're doing what they can. But, you know, I do feel that there is a degree of, you know, being reactive rather than proactive with some of these shortages. Eutrogestan prescriptions, for example, going back to that have been increasing steadily over the last couple of years. And I don't understand why we've got a shortage now, why they haven't been putting plans in place to, you know, be proactive about that. The pro-Gynova is in short supply at the moment. There are alternatives, but I mean, I think it's just very unsettling. And again, going back to the eutrogestan story,

the thought of women, you know, running out and not having any progestogen rather than carrying on with their oestrogen does put them at risk. And the risk is? The risk is thickening of the womb lining because in HRT, we're using oestrogen as the for for menopause symptoms but in women who have a womb if they don't take enough progesterone to to cover that estrogen or they stop which i'm hearing on social media saying well i can't get it but i can't stop my hrt and none of us want any women to stop their hrt abruptly that's incredibly disruptive But if they do stop their progesterone component or their progestogen and carry on with their oestrogen, womb thickening, endometrial hyperplasia, and possibly even, you know, in some at-risk women, possibly even womb cancer, which is,

you know, it's just unacceptable. So that puts across, of course, how important it is. I just want to read a statement from the Women's Minister, Maria Caulfield. She said, I want to reassure women that the vast majority of HRT products are in good supply. The overall supply of HRT products has improved considerably over the past year. I'm encouraged by how the industry is responding to the growth in demand and our continued calls for action to boost supply to meet it. We continue working to help ensure continuity of supply, which is a key part of increasing support for menopausal and pre-menopausal women and improving their quality of life.

The Department for Health and Social Care has also said that a serious shortage protocol is standard procedure used frequently to manage temporary and potential medicine supply issues. What do you think, Inés? Well, I just, every month we get updates on shortages and it's a different product every month. People are desperately scrambling to get alternatives when they can't access their treatments. There may be some degree of stockpiling. So I understand the rationale for the serious shortage protocols. So women can get two months at a time. And we'd encourage women to make sure they're proactive in filling those prescriptions and not getting to the point where they're about to run out and then not be able to get their prescription but but these things have been predictable for months and months there's been 20 well it's certainly been

over 20 serious shortage protocols of different HRT preparations over the last 12 months and it's still going on and many women are feeling angry, irritated, understandably fearful. And that actually adds to your burden when you're going through menopause symptoms in the first place. 84844 is our text number if you want to add. Oh, somebody just did, as I mentioned, devastated to hear about the uterogestan shortage. I've been taking it for 10 years after a long struggle to find suitable HRT. Natural progesterone is completely different

from synthetic forms and I found it was the only thing that helped with my mood and sleep. Let me turn back to you, Nina. What about the work of the menopause task force that we heard about? So there was a lot,

there's a big splash about that, wasn't there, when there were the oestrogel shortages and appointments nationally and so on. From my side, I think that seems to have gone quiet recently. I haven't heard very much more from the menopause task force now that the oestrogel shortages have been resolved. So, yeah, I've not heard anything. Yes, I know they were to convene from the Department of Health and Social Care.

They do talk about convening shortly, bringing together ministers and senior commissions from all four nations to tackle the obstacles women in menopause face. And it's meant to be every two months for a period of 18 months. So it should still be taking place now with recommendations then, you know, put forward. What do you think, Nina? Should people, you talked about going to the GP,

but if they don't find it at their regular pharmacy, should they be calling around other pharmacies? Nina? Me or Nina? Sorry, Anise, do you want to pick that one up yeah i can pick it so what we don't want is for women to be sharing products if possible because they might not be is that what you're hearing anecdotally i am hearing that through rumors not through patients who've

because i would definitely not recommend that um yes if the problem is if you send your prescription to your local pharmacy they then have that prescription so to get another prescription to take to another pharmacy can be problematic it's more admin time for GPs but there is a possibility there is a facility to go online and try and find a product that can fill an NHS prescription that may have stopped because the shortages are definitely geographical. There's certain areas that have had no problems and other areas that have had very significant problems. I understand. Nina, can you hear me okay? I can hear you. Yeah, that's fine. Sorry, just froze for a second. And there is talk of the annual HRT prescription charge. I think that was from the beginning of April.

Has that kicked in yet? Are people aware of it? I'm very, yes, I'm very pleased to say that has kicked in from the beginning of April this year. It was delayed, but it is now up and running. And so women are able to get a prepayment certificate that would cover the cost of all their HRT for a year. For a year. Once the supplies are there,

I'll put in just as a caveat as we've been discussing. But thank you. And if the site doesn't crash when you try to apply. OK, also good to know. Thanks to both of you for speaking to us.

That is Dr. Ennis Mukherjee and also Dr. Nina Wilson. Lots of you getting in touch with me this morning. I threw out a question this morning about good for your age. Should I read a few of them? We shall get into our segment in just a moment. Looking good for your age. Amy says, yes, it's a compliment.

Some 80 year olds look very old. Some look very well. So good for her age is fine. For her age is only bad if age itself is something to be ashamed of. I hate all this hiding ages making coy euphemisms about birthdays etc. You're as old as you are. I'm 46 for context.

Let me see another one. Great for her age has an underlying assumption that older women don't usually look great. The definition of looking great is based on stereotypes of beauty which include looking a certain way, including young, youthful. I'm 61, receive many compliments and I don't hide my age.

Here's another one. This is from Geraldine. Don't forget about the damning phrase she's let herself go. A look which I have embraced. No makeup apart from occasional electric blue mascara for my pleasure. Not anyone else's. Keep them coming. 84844.

Right. So what about if you hear that you're looking good for your age? How would you feel? Maybe not so secretly thrilled or maybe thrilled? Slightly indignant? Why are we likely to take it as a compliment if someone actually thinks we look younger than we are? Well, the American businesswoman I mentioned at the beginning and lifestyle guru, Martha Stewart, she made history recently by becoming the oldest woman on the front cover of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue at the age of 81. And the follow up articles, I saw some this morning as well, all over the press have gone wild for her tips on staying youthful. And that is despite Martha herself saying in an interview,

I think that all of us should think about good living, successful living and not about ageing. The whole ageing thing is so boring. So let's talk about what good for your age means, really. Why is it even a consideration? I'm joined by Sam Baker, former editor of Cosmo and Red magazine and author of The Shift.

Good morning, Sam. Hi, Nuala. And I should give the full title of The Shift, how I Lost and Found Myself After 40 and You Can Too. And it has evolved into a podcast. And Lucy Baker, no relation, I should say, also joins us, a 47-year-old mum of three who blogs as the geriatric mum and works as a confidence coach. Good morning, Lucy. Good morning. Good to have you back with us.

Well, Sam, let's start with you. If somebody says to you, you know, you're looking good for your age or thinks you're five years younger than you are, what do you think, Sam? Do you know what? I'm ashamed to say I probably do give a little inner air punch. But, you know, the thing is, it's all about the word good, isn't it? Because by good, we mean young. And that's the real problem, I think, is when someone says you look good for your age,

they're saying you look young for your age. And that's, you know, as the people who've been messaging in this morning have said, you know, that's a problem. What about that, Lucy? Is that it? Should good is really just a substitute for young? I think the word good is I like the description, but I don't like the fact that it's always tagged with age. You know, you look good for your age. What about you just look great. You look good.

I think that the you know, and as women, we're always judged for how we look, unfortunately. And age is a huge part of that. So i think the message needs to be you look great you look good and i think that's a really positive thing but tagging it with age all the time it's it's a bit boring it's a bit tiresome um let's talk about martha stewart and the swimsuit magazine cover that i mentioned uh what was your reaction to it sam well you know magazines are putting an 81 year old on the cover so let's let's just get that out of the way let's applaud that but this is an 81 year old who who looks 41 you know. In that picture definitely. Yeah in that picture so you know even photoshopping

aside if you look at her Instagram which which, yeah, I would recommend. It's interesting. She's, I don't want to say she's had a lot of work. I don't know if she's had work, but she looks very, very young. And I don't know about your chest, Nuala, but there's more crepe on my chest, 56, than there is on hers at 81. I've got to say. I did read yesterday, she said no plastic surgery, said she has done fillers and Botox in the past, I believe, just to what I've read so far. When was the past? I don't know.

Yesterday, last week. But seriously, honestly, what I thought was, yeah, I want women of all ages to be visible, but is this the visibility I had in mind? Not really, to be honest. To me, it feels like piling on the pressure. You know, Lucy, you call your blog

The Geriatric Mom. Have you ever felt that pressure to try and look younger at the school gate if your contemporaries are so much younger? Yeah, so I have to be really honest. I had Botox a year ago,

brown line type Botox, you know, to smooth out the wrinkles in my forehead. And I haven't had it since. So I'm Botox, you know, to smooth out the wrinkles in my forehead. And I haven't had it since. So I'm Botox free at 47, which I'm unusual. Most of my peers or people I work with, or, you know, women I meet in my job and socially, most people have had Botox now. And I think we're getting to the point as midlife women that you either you either do or you don't or you either fit, you know, you fit these groups or you don't. And we're kind of judging each other or or noticing that either women have had Botox or they haven't.

It becomes the first kind of thing on people's minds when they meet new people. And I was at an event at the weekend, weekend actually that was designed for midlife women and most of the women who were on the stage or talking or kind of in the public eye had had i think some sort of okay really interesting and you think it's most women lucy it's a real mix i think it's it's of the people I know in my relationship groups have it. My next question is, though, because if we're talking about, you know, look good slash younger, don't people just look the same age, but with Botox? Yes. Yes, exactly that. Yes. Well, look at Martha's hands and you can really tell because she's got the hands

of an 81 year old. And so it looks really incongruous. Shall we take another few comments from our listeners? OK, let's go. There's so many. 84844. Do we say he looks good?

He looks good for his age. That's from Christina. Another from Rachel. We're so conditioned to love it when people think we're younger than we are. The thrill of getting ID'd in your 30s or someone saying, oh, you don't look it when we reveal our ages.

I'm guilty too. I'm 40 next year, but someone recently asked if I was in my late 20s. I wish we didn't get that dopamine hit from it, but it is a reflection of our society. I loved Martha Stewart's cover and hope it's not a novelty

and that other older women start being seen as desirable and beautiful. Here's another one, Victoria. I just strutted the catwalk at our local charity shop fashion show. I'm 68 and I was by no means

the oldest model. The women all looked fantastic. Age should be no bar. So there's two things there, I think, going on. One, who is actually embracing their age, but still trying to look a certain way at it? Or is anybody just letting it go and not trying to feel that they need to be groomed or primped to a certain level? Sam, I think that's what I'm hearing from my listeners. I think, I mean, I think the thing is there are lots of different ways.

That's the problem. It's like either you're doing a Martha, for want of a better way of putting it. And, you know, as Lucy said, I think a lot of women in the public eye feel the pressure to do that because they feel like that's what society demands of them is that they look younger but or you're letting yourself go but there are lots of people in the middle who are just who still care about how they look but not to that level so who is doing the judging do we think i mean why why do you need to look good for your age why can't you be looking that the age that you are without trying with things

that perhaps wouldn't have been expected previously? Well, at the risk of being boring, society, you know, the workplace, but also other women. I mean, we all judge each other. So whether it's, you know, it starts at school, and then, you know, it carries on at the school gates. And then as you get older, you kind of see all the other women around you. I mean, I've never had Botox, but that's probably because I'm a bit scared. But that's interesting. You think it's other women because some of the traditional hypotheses on this would have been about the male gaze, for example, and desirability.

But you instead push it more towards other women. Lucy, I think what I'm... Go ahead, Sam. No, not really. I just I think there's both things going on. Yeah, male gaze, absolutely. I mean, Martha, Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover was absolutely all about let's give this woman visibility, get ourselves some column inches but it was it was visible to men it wasn't visible to women but I do think that women are judging each other too yeah I think it's visible to men but we're the ones who are talking about it as well and ultimately I think it's about people being attractive you know feeling attractive wanting to be attractive to others um is that why we're changing ourselves you know

making ourselves look younger I don't know but I mean age is such a topic as you know we're talking about it today it's it's the first question often on people's lips isn't it but how old are they yes trying to figure out place them is often one of the first things put in an article about somebody as well so people can try and place them I think but wanting to stay attractive this is just a certain interpretation of attractiveness of a kind of indeterminate I don't know age but somewhat younger than what you are and why aren't we past that yet? I don't know I think society is obsessed with age and aging and I think um it I think ultimately as well people are scared of dying people are scared of death so age kind of puts you in that uh it I don't know I think I think people want to look younger because they've got this belief that

they're going to live longer ultimately is that what is at the heart of it, do you think? It's so interesting. I hear what you're saying. I think it's a big part of it. Sam? Oh, I don't know. I haven't actually thought of it like that. I mean, I think it's much more to do with the way society values youth and wanting to stay relevant. And this idea that you can keep yourself relevant by continuing to look like you're younger than you are what could people say um instead of that good for her age or uh as that term goes um not going to age off take the age bit off take the age but but she looks good i mean is that any less insidious why do you have to look good why can't you just look the way you're supposed to look because I think when people say looks good

they generally mean I think correct me listeners if I'm wrong 84844 that you look you don't look your age I think you're right Nuala I think people are always having this age, you know, yeah, this level to kind of compare people to and how good they look. I think you're right. But isn't it boring? But we don't have it,

what I'm hearing, I think from both of you is that there is still not that, is the word confidence? I don't know, to be able to stop society dictating how we should try and look. I mean, I think the bottom line is that wasn't Harrison Ford covered in, you know, retouching and Botox on the cover.

You know, nobody's asking 81-year-old men to prove their worth by doing that. And I think that the reason we haven't got the confidence, I don't think that is the right word, but I don't know what is the right word, is because we've grown up being told that we're valued for our looks. And that's, you know, that's not going to go away overnight.

Do you think, and this is for my listeners as well, to go away overnight do you think this for my listeners as well 84844 will you stop using it if you have used it or will women stop using it um as a compliment as a bonding tool um i don't think i do use it you don't use it, Lucy? Not sure. I think, yeah, I just think that we need to, you know, I think for me it is about confidence. It's about feeling good on the inside. You know, I wear makeup. I do things to make myself feel good.

But they are pro feeling good, not pro feeling younger. Well, lots of food for thought there and lots coming in from our listeners as well. Let me see, Kirsty, I would say thank you and quietly think it was pretty tactless. As soon as you add a qualifier, it sounds insincere and that goes for all compliments. Nothing wrong with saying you look good

and leaving it at that. Somebody else, Fianna, says, I consciously tried not to use the phrase looks good for age, partly because I think as a society we place too much emphasis on physical appearance,

but it also suggests that looking and being older is not good enough, especially for women and looking younger is more desirable. Keep in touch,

84844, your thoughts on that and thanks so much to my guests. We had with us Lucy Baker and Sam Baker. All right,

I want to turn to Northern Ireland next, starting on BBC Two, BBC Northern Ireland and also on the BBC iPlayer tonight. Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland will air. It gives voice to the people who lived through the Troubles, sharing intimate stories from all sides of the conflict. It's a new five-part documentary. It's by award-winning director James Blumell,

combining unfiltered personal accounts with archive footage to tell the story of the people and communities who had to live with violence daily and that are still dealing with its legacies today. It airs tonight on the anniversary of the referendum that ratified the Good Friday Agreement that was on the 22nd of May

1998. Well, I'm joined by two women now who have chosen to tell their stories in this documentary. We have Bernadette and Denise. You're both very welcome. Let me start with you, Bernadette. Stories are compelling, as I was telling my a lot of women prisoners' wives ever got asked how they felt. James and Sean one day and this came up and I thought, they asked me would I do it and I went,

well, okay then because, you know, I don't believe that any other prisoner's wife has ever come on and spoken, you know, honestly about their own

personal experience of what it was like. It was, it's quite something to listen to. Just to let our listeners know you got married at 18. You knew your husband was involved in the IRA, but you did think that he was going to give it up. I did. Tell me a little bit about that time and also what happened when you found out he hadn't.

Well, by the time I found out that he hadn't, it was too late. No, Ricky and I had talked about, we were going out together and I knew that he had a Republican background. I didn't. We had very sort of different backgrounds. I had no interest in Republicanism or religion because my mother had been a Protestant

and my father was a Catholic, and that was a mixed marriage. So in our house, nothing was talked about, nothing sectarian or nothing about religion and certainly nothing about politics. But I know Ricky's background was very different. So he came from a very Republican family where his father and his uncles and that

had all been incarcerated during one campaign or another. So they had that history there. But I knew that he was a Republican. But once when I got pregnant and we talked of getting married, I thought you can't be in the IRA. And he agreed that, you know, we had talked about it and he knew that I didn't want him to be in the IRA. And I had assumed that he had left when we got married and I soon found out that he hadn't left because although we had just been married,

he wasn't going to meetings and he wasn't doing things to alert me to the fact that he might have still been there. And if he was there, it must have been on the fringes because I see no hint of it. So anyhow, we were married and then the next thing, Ricky got put in jail. We were six months married and he was arrested and he was sent out to do a bank and I thought he was away looking for work on this particular morning

and he told me he was going out to look for a job but he was doing a job because that was a word that would have been used. A bank robbery? Yes and then he was arrested and then that's when kind of everything shattered for me. What was it like

to be the wife of an IRA prisoner and I want to tell our listeners a little as well that this was a time of dirty protests, as it was called. The people within the prison were looking for political prisoner status. They refused to wear the uniforms. They were known as the blanket men. They just wore blankets.

There was also, and some of these details are always graphic, of course, about excrement that was smeared on the walls. That's why it was called a dirty protest. You were going up visiting during those times. What do you remember? Well it was a pretty tough time. It was very unpleasant. It was bad enough that Ricky went into jail

but then the dirty protest started and they didn't wash and their hairs were long and their nails were long and there was no showers and they didn't do their teeth and it was the conditions they were living in was awful

and sure there I was at 18 going up to visit them in my best clothes and putting on the perfume and the lipstick and trying to lift a spirit and part of me just wanting to be me to get dressed up. Well, I had nobody really to dress up for or nowhere else to go.

So this was my visit with my husband. And, you know, I really presented myself very well. But when I got up there and I had to go in and see Ricky and God love him, he used to come out and, you know, there was this stench up the cell and how he'd been living, you know,

and it was on the clothes that he had to wear out and on his hair and you know, it kind of was pretty repulsive but, you know, and I had to pull back from him, you know, sitting across from him. But you had to kiss him? And then I had to kiss him and that wasn't pleasant either, but it was the least I could do was to give him a kiss him. And then I had to kiss him and that wasn't pleasant either.

But it was the least I could do was to give him a kiss. And yeah, I had to kiss him and you know, it was just, you had to do that for your husband. You had to keep the spirits lifted. But there were memories that ingrained on my brain. Yes, and some of it was about passing

notes as well, just to let our listeners know, but they'll see it in the documentary. It just that visual image left an impact on me. I want to turn to you, Denise, as well. We're hearing a little bit of Bernadette's stories there, but you grew up constantly worrying about your family in the Troubles, your mum in particular. Tell us a little about what her job was and what it was like to be that daughter in the Troubles. Yeah, we were brought up in the interface at Tempore Avenue and Short Strand.

And there was my mum, my brother and myself, and then my grandparents lived two doors down. And during all of the troubles, we would have been brought out nightly when the riots were taking place and we would have gone to seek refuge in the bakery or, as we would have called it, the glory hole under the stairs or something to hide from the the bullets and the stones that were being thrown from uh short strand straight into our our house basically because we were the middle house in that row um so as time went on and it was very very uh like

there was no money around at the time. A lot of struggles were had. And mum, bless her, she decided that, you know, she would love to work towards peace within Northern Ireland. So she joined the UDR. And I suppose unknown and not thought about at that time was that added an extra layer of stress and pressure to what was already a very difficult environment to be bringing children up in.

So that was the Ulster Defence Regiment, which would have been considered a target really by the IRA. Very much a target from the IRA. And our lives were thrown into fear completely of bombings under the car. Mum going out on patrol, not knowing if mummy was coming back. She would check her car every morning? Every single time before morning, noon and night if we were getting into the

car, mummy would check the car first and you do know there's only so many times you can drop your keys and pretend that you're looking at the keys but you're actually checking for bombs under the car. Mummy would be down on her knees and Paul and I would get down and if there was ever

anything suspicious looking, mummy would have driven the car a few yards up and down, you know, and if it didn't go off then we were okay, then we'd go get in the car and go mummy would drop us to school or whatever and then, but in primary school quite often we would have If we were okay, then we'd go get in the car and go to school or whatever.

But in primary school, quite often, we would have had the traumas that were already around in the area, living on an interface and getting stones and darts thrown at you, golf balls thrown at you and things like that. So we lived in fear anyway and in trying to work towards the peace of Northern Ireland, joining the UDR I'm so proud of my mum and all the guys that served with her She was in the Green Finches and just they were like front line

women on the front line which was a first during those times as well there's probably a lot more to talk about exactly what they went through. But it is so interesting to hear it from your perspective because it's really been told, I think, on either side through the stories of men and not through the stories of the women and girls

that we are hearing now. Just, Bernadette, before I let you go, you talked about the three shifts that women had to put in as a wife of a prisoner. Yeah, well, I suppose I talked about the triple shift. And that meant, you know, the women had to go to work. Some women worked.

You'd done the domestic chores. And then you had to soothe the emotions of the men. You had to be there and soothe them emotionally. And, you know, you were on constant call. Everything revolved around the men. And, you know, women were like second class citizens at that particular time. Certainly the prisoners' wives that I knew because we were just an extension of our husbands. You know, regardless of whether you were married six months or six years

and your husband went to prison, you were the extension of him. You were expected to stand and wait. You were expected to be there. It's just fascinating. You did stay with Ricky, I will say, 46 years of marriage. And I just want to let people know, I found it compelling watching your stories. I'm sure others will as well.

If they want to catch it, the five part series Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland starts tonight at 9pm on BBC2 and BBC2 Northern Ireland and the five episodes will be available on the BBC iPlayer Bernadette and Denise, thank you both so much. Thank you very much for allowing us to tell the story. Great to

hear your voices. I do want to let my listeners know, tomorrow we're joined by the acclaimed Irish novelist Anisha Dolan, who will be speaking about her new novel, The Happy Couple. We'll talk all about that.

Join me right here at 10am. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex

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