Woman's Hour - Women of Snow and Ice; Sheila Watt-Cloutier; Antarctic Women; Nancy Campbell and Cold Water Swimming

Episode Date: December 28, 2021

Sheila Watt-Cloutier, is a world renowned human rights and climate change activist, who has made it her life's work to protect her Inuit culture and the Arctic regions where Inuit live, in Greenland, Canada and Alaska. Sheila was born in Kuujjuaq in Arctic Canada where she lived traditionally, travelling only by dog team for the first ten years of her life. She was elected as President of the Inuit Circumpolar Council in 1995 and launched the first legal petition linking climate change to human rights - work that led to her being nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.Nancy Campbell is captivated by the stark, rugged beauty of ice and its solid but impermanent nature. Her book The Library of Snow and Ice is about her time spent living in Upernavik, a small town in north-western Greenland and the traces left by explorers of the Arctic and Antarctic. Her recent book Fifty Words for Snow looks at the origins and mythologies of snow around the globe. She shares with Emma her fascination for snow, ice and its place in our world. British women were banned from visiting Antarctica until 1983 when Janet Thomson was finally granted passage by the British Antarctic Survey. But now scores of women are making major contributions to polar science, especially those working on the stability of ice shelves and sheets. So how did women break through the ice ceiling to create opportunities and become leaders in their fields? Emma speaks to Morgan Seag who has just submitted her PhD in gendered institutional change in 20th century Antarctic science to the University of Cambridge and Jo Johnson who has visited Antarctica seven times with the British Antarctic Survey. We also hear from Dr Alison Banwell, a British glaciologist and research scientist who is currently based at the University of Colorado Boulder and her team conducting research on the ice right now; Rebecca Dell and Laura Stevens. Heading to the cold of the Arctic and the Antarctic wrapped up in the right gear is one thing but there are some women that actually choose to immerse themselves in freezing water, even in winter here in the UK. Hayley Dorian is one of them, she has set up a swimming group called Wild Sea Women who meet to embrace the waves in North East England and South-West Scotland . But are there benefits of cold water swimming? Emma finds out from Hayley and Dr Heather Massey who works in the Extreme Environments Lab at the University of Portsmouth.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to a special programme all about women, ice and snow. Even if there was no snow for Christmas where you are, what is and has been women's relationships with the coldest place on earth, namely the Arctic and Antarctic, is our focus today on this special programme. How have women explored those terrains or been banned from doing so? I kid you not, the ice ceiling.

What have women brought to the coldest places on earth and what have we got out of it and how have we survived them? We are not live today, I should say, but you can still get in touch on social media and email us through the Women's Hour website. But I have to say, recording this programme with my hands wrapped around a steaming mug of tea, and as someone who loathes the cold, I'm firmly out of my comfort zone, even as a northerner on this aisle. But I am ready to learn from the warmth of the radio studio, and what better teachers than the female scientists at the cutting edge of exploration right now. The writer and poet Nancy Campbell and Dr. Heather Massey, who works in the Extreme Environments Lab at the University of Portsmouth.

But first, Sheila Watt Cloutier is a world renowned human rights and climate change activist who's made it her life's work to protect her Inuit culture and the Arctic. Inuit people refer to those living in Arctic regions of Greenland, Canada and Alaska, and she was born in Arctic Canada. Sheila was elected as president of the Inuit Circumpolar Council and launched the first legal petition linking climate change to human rights, work that led to her being nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Thank you so much for, well, thank you so much for being with us at this time,

especially after rather a strange 18 months or so with how we've all been living. But I thought you could take us back to your early life in Arctic Canada. Yes, I was born in a small community, which was a Hudson's Bay Company post called Old Fort Chimel. My humble beginnings are traveling by dog team the first 10 years of my life. And we lived very traditionally hunting and fishing and gathering. And I didn't know any English until I started school at the age of six years old. And then at 10, I was sent away for school, like many indigenous children were across the country in Canada. And that's where I was born. That's how you began life.

Travelling only by dog sled is very different to lots of people I speak to. So just very much painting an image for us. And you is very different to lots of people I speak to. So just very much painting an image for us. And you were very close to your mother and grandmother, I understand. I wondered if you could share some of the traditions that they practised that you remember as a child. Well, I mean, we still practise every activity. We still live a very traditional life. My mother and grandmother were single mothers. And they raised us children. Because in those days, you know, the white fathers didn't stay. And so they were left with their children. My grandfather was a Scotsman, William Watt, who came over with the

Hedens Bay Company, had three children with my grandmother, and then he was gone. But we lived very traditionally with my mother and my grandmother, and they were my role models. During a time of transition, great transition in the Arctic, they were really the survivors, you know, the women that really worked hard. And they went on to do domestic work for the Hudson's Bay Company, and allowed for us to have food on the table and to have the ability to go out and still hunt. And my brothers, when they got older, they became the hunters for the family. But before that, my grandmother was the one that would go out and try to fend for herself because it was during that period of time when, you know, we were transitioning into this modern world, you know, bartering for food

and so on, and being used for the global market for fur and becoming fur trappers almost overnight to meet that global market for fur. So it was a tough time. And my grandmother had to give up one of her children after my grandfather left, because she was already struggling to raise her children single-handedly. There's some extraordinary details in that as well. And I recognise not lots of things have changed, but a lot also was changing, which you alluded to. And for anyone unfamiliar with the history of the Inuit in the Arctic Circle, can you explain what the Canadian government did in the 50s and 60s? Well, you know, there was a lot of what we call now, and we have come to understand historical traumas, the major changes that were happening where we were coerced into communities in order for us to attend institutional schools where the land was our teacher for millennia. And everything that we needed to know the land taught us that to be able to not just survive, but thrive in the harsh

conditions that we have lived in for millennia. And we would teach our children naturally on the land for the opportunities and challenges of life. And then the governments came in, and we were brought into communities, put into small matchbox houses, and had to attend school. And by then, we were already becoming quite dependent upon family allowances, and welfare systems. And if we didn't bring our children into the communities, then those were taken away from us and so it was a real coercion that was happening there was also some you know I chronicle this in my book the right to be cold where you know there were forced relocations up into the highest arctic where we wouldn't have chosen to live up way up that way where there were very few animals

to hunt and so on. But the absolute wisdom and ingenuity of those families that were forced up there in the name of sovereignty, you know, survived many of them. But still, the legacy of that trauma still lives on today, generationally. And in terms of the impact this had on the Inuit way of life, because you said that traditions have carried on, but against this sort of backdrop, how did it change things? Well, it changed things in terms of the trauma and the woundings that really happened during those period of time. You know, we were sent away at the age, you know, very young age, I was one of them having lost my language and having to

gain it back. But there was also the animal rights movement that came in and really demolished the ability for us in a transitioning world of being able to sell the seal pelts from the byproduct of the subsistence hunt. That really demoralized the hunters and wounded their ability and their self-worth to be able to provide for their families with the byproduct of that hunt that we do. You're bringing up there killing seals, which as you put it is an important part of Inuit way of life. But you are also obviously aware that many people have been and continue to be deeply upset by this idea on the animal rights side of things. Well, we were impacted by the broad stroke that they came in to try to be anti-commercial ceiling against that without

fully knowing, you know, that this was our way of life. And because people have become very squeamish about seeing blood on the ice, you know, there's a real judgment here that has happened over the years. And for us, you know, blood on the ice means we're going to eat, we're going to celebrate. And it's not a confirmation of death, it's actually an affirmation of life. And those kinds of differences of opinions, you know, have really interfered with a way of life that is so honouring of every animal that we harvest and hunt. And it's about life giving life for us. I mentioned that you have campaigned all your life to protect Inuit culture in the Arctic and launched that first legal petition to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights back in 2007, linking climate change to human rights.

How was that received at the time? Well, we were ahead of our time when it came to making these kinds of connections. You know, climate change was always about politics and science and economics. And it was a very academic kind of way of looking at climate change. And so we were humanizing this issue. And we pioneered that work. And I led that campaign on linking climate change to human rights. And of course, in the beginning, people didn't quite get that. Because people are used to human rights being violated on an individual basis, like, for example, torture and that sort of thing, you know, that would happen with human rights violations. But never did they really think about collective rights being violated and that a whole way of life of people were being negatively impacted.

Our right to health, our right to educate our children on that ice, our right to safety, security, mobility, transportation, housing, all of those things, which are entrenched in international law to begin with. But they were all being minimized and destroyed as a result of climate change, and more so today. It takes a long time for the world to even understand these Arctic issues, much less understand that it's connecting to everybody else today. We not long ago had COP26, of course, a convening of the world leaders. How much faith do you have that they do get it now, and how climate change is affecting communities in the Arctic right now?

Well, the thing is, I don't think the governments are necessarily getting it. I mean, they do, they understand it. But because they're so entrenched in unsustainable activities, it's very difficult for that kind of movement to happen within government. So I don't focus on those kind of issues anymore, because I left elected politics way back in 2005, and have been working on these issues with civil society, those who wish to make changes. And I think in spite of, you know, the COP meetings, which perhaps, in a sense, can be almost obsolete now in terms of it being effective, not to throw everything out with, you know, in terms of what

can be done there, civil society is moving ahead in many ways. You can see the cities trying to green themselves, whether it's in buildings, whether it's in parks, all kinds of ways in which municipalities and cities are moving ahead with the changes they want to make. What about you now? I mean, where do you live? I'm having a look at where you are, like where you're sitting, which we've learned to do looking into each other's homes. Now we all speak on video call, but do you live near where you grew up? Well, I have lived in Nunavut for almost 20 years, Nunavut, which is even further north in the Arctic.

And then I moved home to Kuja, where I was born four and a half years ago. And then one month ago, just a little over one month ago, because of the pandemic, my whole livelihood relies on public events, book events and so on. And when virtual events started to happen, the internet is so bad in the north, that it hindered my ability to continue to work. And so I've had to temporarily move to Montreal now. Oh, wow. And that's where I am right now, because internet is much better here. and I'm able to do what I'm doing now with you. Yeah, we're grateful for that. But how much of a wrench is that for you to be away from where you have been living and where you want to be, presumably? It was a very difficult decision to make, but it was one that I had no choice, really.

So I've rented my little home in the Arctic and now I'm renting a space here in Montreal. In the Arctic, we're often left behind. People are working hard on it to make it work, but it's really, really bad. I think it gets probably romanticised. Our listeners will be thinking... Everything does. No, no, but our listeners may be thinking,

oh, the Arctic, perhaps that's just one of those places that the whole area, no internet, be free, live how people used to, it's better. No, no, I don't think it's even that. I think it's just that, you know, governments haven't focused on bringing in the proper bandwidth, the proper funding that is required to keep people, you know, connected to the rest of the world. But we are used very often for, as I say, you know, the whole history of the global market for fur. And now, of course, we're being used for as a benefit, you know, that the ice that's melting now is often seen as a benefit rather than a devastation, because of the rich resources that are now showing themselves more accessibly to these oil and gas and mining companies

coming into the Arctic to continue to practice these unsustainable activities. So it's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. And the romanticizing of the Arctic, you know, the world knows the Arctic more for its wildlife than its people. And oftentimes these are the big companies that come in to depict the romantic way in which, like we've seen the commercials, polar bears and seals drinking soda on the ice, a very unlikely partnership. But nonetheless, it sells. It romanticizes the Arctic in that way. When you you do go home what is it for you that feels

uh so special what you know without romanticizing it just telling us what it is for you about the snow about the ice about the climate about the natural environment what does it give you it's a grounding force up there you know the ice is our life force. And, you know, everybody is still hunting and fishing and connected to all that we've gone through, we have still remained very close to our culture and way of life and our hunting way of life. And that is just a remarkable place to be in, to understand that we have gone through all of these traumas, but yet still so rooted in our language and culture. And the kind of incredible creations today by the even the younger generation, the clothing that is made with beauty, I mean, we have a, you know, as much as we are struggling

with, you know, with the social and health indicators that haven't improved, have gotten worse, you know, the addictions and all of that based from the historical traumas, the woundings that have happened, and we're still trying to make our way out of that. There is this remarkable parallel process happening in the Arctic with a younger generation of really creative jewelry makers and performing artists and documentary filmmakers and fashion designers, and always including our cultural way of life through that process. And the works of art and beauty are just tremendously awe-striking. And that's where I think the power lies in terms of that creative way in which we're going to be able to stand back on our feet with these kinds of smaller but cottage industries that really honor and are a culture match in moving ahead with some of the businesses that we're starting up. They just might need a slightly better internet connection to sell some of their words and let the world know about it.

Exactly. And they say that. And what is it like back home between men and women in terms of the gender equality stakes? Well, I mean, traditionally, there was always different roles to play where men had a very specific role, women did, but it was a real strong partnership. There's still not enough women in leadership roles. There's no doubt about that. You know, our men leaders are at the forefront of many of the institutional work that we're doing. But at the same time, I think the women are really still that grounding force in our communities as well, where they are faring better in terms of the transitions. Many are, you know, not to generalize

everybody, but many of the women, you know, move into the work of teaching and social work and many of these things that really are trying to make a difference, trying to improve the well-being of our communities. And so we have that still maternal instinct to protect. And certainly that's been the case for me. My maternal instinct is extremely strong. And I feel that it is that grounding I've had from my own grandmother and my mother that really drives me to do what I do today. And that's the protection of everything that I love, which includes my language, my culture, my community, and my ancestry.

All of that is really important to me. It's incredibly clear from what you've shared with me and with our listeners today. Thank you very much indeed. Sheila O'Clusie, thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, that's lovely. What does that mean? Is that thank you? Yes. Beautiful. Thank you. Now we're going to stay in the North and the Arctic with my next guest, who is captivated by the stark, rugged beauty of ice and its solid but impermanent nature. Nancy Campbell's book, The Library of Snow and Ice, is about her time living in Uppernavik, a small town in northwestern Greenland, and the traces left by explorers of the Arctic and Antarctic. She has also written lots of poetry about snow, ice and its place in our world

and is going to share one of those poems with us today. But first, welcome to the programme, Nancy. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. What is it about snow and ice? Well, it's so fundamental to the historic shape of our world with glaciers forging the geology of rocks and mountains. And it's an indicator of our future too. So for this very mutable material, it's full of stories.

And I have become fascinated listening to the stories and also hearing how they're interpreted by scientists and other writers and explorers and indigenous communities who live among the ice. Well, it's turned you into a bit of an explorer as well, hasn't it? I mean, where has it taken you, this fascination with ice and what it holds? I first went to Greenland ten years ago and I was invited to the most northern museum in the world

on the island of Vrpernovik to write about the island community and the objects in the museum. I was fascinated when I got there because there was nothing in the museum at all. So my job seemed very difficult, very challenging. But I was very blessed by the curator of the museum, a local woman called Greta Moldrop, who introduced me to the island's character and its stories. And she explained the reason why this fairly new museum was empty was because all the historic artefacts in Greenland were still under the ice.

Oh, wow. Which had sort of crept over much earlier settlements. And so people were just waiting, the museum was waiting with all its empty vitrines for the ice to melt and objects to appear again. How extraordinary. So my work ended up being very much about the imaginary and the archive and reading and listening to Greta's stories of the island. And that's where many of the poems in my book Disco Bay came from. I was trying to think back through the history of the island,

all the different people who'd come to live there. The original settlers would have been nomadic. The island is called Springtime Place because people came there in spring. That's the translation of Rupernevik. Well, let's talk about the poem, The Vostok Ice Core Gives a Creative Writing Lesson. And just before you share that with us, what is an ice core? An ice core is a fascinating artefact.

Recently, scientists have used oil drilling technology to bore down into the ice in the Arctic, the Antarctic and many coal regions. And the cores go down so deep that they can read back into ancient ice. The Vostok ice core actually goes back 420,000 years. And the reason they're so interesting is that the ice traps air. So as you go back down through the core, you have the past environments going back to ancient history and scientists are using this new language and the information that the ice gives us to understand

past climates and figure out where we're heading next. I love the idea of the past sort of mapping perhaps to the future. Let's hear the Vostok Ice Core gives a creative writing lesson. Nancy Campbell. One, be complete. Tell the whole story every day in every season, summer and winter, from the present until the beginning of time. Two, be discreet. Record events in one location only.

Preserve the unities of space, if not of time. 3. Be precise. Do not get distracted by your own fears, the imminence of extinction. Never decide your results in advance. 4. Be concise. Do not use too many words. Do use a language that everyone can understand. 5. Air is invisible, but it holds just as much information as ice. 6. By the time they reach your readers, the events you describe will seem infinitesimal.

That faint grey line left by a volcanic eruption that grounded all the world's planes? It's nothing to them. 7. Remember that ice is the frozen state of water. Your document may take on other forms. 8. If you want to find ice, go to the cold places but keep your own temperature constant 9. The work will not be quick

Anticipate seven seasons 10. Keep going deeper The story is already there Extraction is the reader's art Reading in the cold, drilling through the dark. That's very powerful. I mean, I'm so struck by how you have to write what we don't know, or what we think is there, as part of it, and how deep it goes. And I think the work that scientists do is absolutely extraordinary. I have travelled

quite a lot during my own research and worked directly with communities and with local people. And I tend to draw my results from conversations in bars or museums or out on the ice shelf. Or empty museums waiting to be filled. Empty museums, exactly. But I also love working in libraries and I've been fortunate to have access to wonderful collections, the Literary and Philosophical Society in Newcastle,

the Bodleian Library in Oxford, and especially with the restrictions we're living under now. I find that travelling by the imagination is just as valid and using scientists' research to understand these mysteries you're describing. But it's not just ice. We should say you've turned your attention to snow, keeping with the cold theme, and 50 words for snow from all over the world.

Why did you go there? And give us an example. I was really intrigued while I was on the island in Greenland. I began learning very tentatively the local language, Greenlandic, which Greta very patiently began teaching me. And I was truly fascinated by the access to knowledge that these new words gave me.

I suddenly began to understand the environment. I was seeing much better the icebergs, the sea ice. Just by learning the words, you didn't know? Just by learning the words. A word is a prism through which you can understand the world, I think. It categorises and sometimes it limits, but sometimes it opens your imagination up. So, for example, in Iceland, hundslapadrufa is the word for dog's paw, snow. And I wonder if we even have that in the UK,

but you can imagine it's a very soft, large snowflake that's ideal for making snowballs. And so it takes you to the meaning in a much deeper and direct way. Yeah, a very specific meaning. And there's a story about Hawaii as well? Yeah. One of the things that I found really interesting during my research was the way that climate is embedded in so many early foundational cultural myths.

And Hawaii, the word for snow is haukia, and the word emerges again in the mountain Mauna Kea, which is dedicated to the snow goddess. I found it really interesting that you find fire and ice so close together in many cultures. The snow goddess of Mauna Kea lives at the very top of a volcanic mountain. It's a sacred mountain because of her presence. But I discovered that in January 2020, there was an incredible snowstorm across Hawaii, which prevented development work on the mountain. Protesters had been working against people putting a telescope on top of Manukau. The protests had gone on for quite a few years. And then suddenly, because of the snow, there was a truce. And it seemed to me as if the snow goddess had come down and said, look, guys, stop arguing.

I'm in charge of this mountain. Chill out, literally. Yeah, yeah. A bit of snow here. But, you know, when I asked you what got you into this, you grew up in the UK, is that right? Yes. I mean, snow obviously was a very exciting thing.

I'm thinking we've just had Christmas. It's something that you would exalt in but wouldn't perhaps see that much of, I imagine, when you were growing up. I grew up in the Scottish Borders and Northumberland. It was a very rural area. I do remember some very distinctly cold winters. And in particular, I was born in the winter of 1978,

which does seem quite a long time ago now. But it was epically cold. So I like to feel in my own way that snow is embedded in my own narrative. And do you like to be cold yourself? I've just been talking about how I loathe it. But, you know, what is it for you? Do you like that sensation? Or is it more thinking about how the cold, the ice, the snow affect us? I find that the cold sharpens everything, including my sense of existence, actually. I've now spent 10 years thinking about the cold, and I'm beginning to think it might be nice to warm up a little bit.

But I think it's been critical, really, as well to my own sort of solastalgia and sense of climate anxiety, too. And as I've seen more and more of these places and been privileged to talk to people who are encountering the real effects of climate change, it's become an enduring fascination. Nancy Campbell, thank you very much. Thank you. Now British women were banned from visiting Antarctica until 1983 when Janet Thompson was finally granted passage by the British Antarctic Survey, the organisation that coordinates trips to perform research in the polar region. But now scores of women are making major contributions to this field of science, especially

those working on the stability of ice shelves and sheets. So how did women break through the ice ceiling, if you even knew there was such a thing, to create opportunities and become leaders in their fields? I'm joined by Morgan Sieg, who's just submitted her PhD on this subject to Cambridge University and can give us a bit of the history as well, and Jo Johnson, who's visited Antarctica seven times with the British Antarctic Survey. A warm welcome to you both. Morgan, let's start with you and this reason. What was the reason given that British women were not allowed to go? So the ostensible reason was that there were no facilities for women in Antarctica.

But that was a superficial excuse. And in fact, one woman in the 1960s reportedly received a reply from the British Antarctic Survey saying that they didn't think women would like to visit the Antarctic anyways. There were no facilities. In other words, there were no toilets. There were no shops. There were no hairdressers. But of course, the superficial excuse really underlied much more foundational anxieties.

They were worried about sociality and sexuality on the ice. A gentleman who was among the leadership of Bass in the 1970s and 80s said that even for an all-male community, morale is balanced on a knife edge, and an insignificant occurrence can have a snowballing effect and shatter morale on station. So they were worried that women would arrive and the sort of cultural social norms on stations wouldn't be able to withstand the pressures of sex. They were not talking about homosexuality at the time. That was very much swept under the rug. And I think there's a brilliant quote from the leader of the U.S. Antarctic operations in the 1950s who said, we won't be

having any women on the ice unless we can provide one woman for every man. Wow. Yeah, quite striking. But still underneath these anxieties, the Antarctic was seen as a stage for proving British masculinity dating back to the expeditions of Robert Scott and Ernest Shackleton. And so I think that they were worried that women would sort of shatter this illusion. And U.S. Antarctic leader George Dufek said women would wreck the illusion of being frontiersmen going into a new land, the illusion of being a hero. And yet, I suppose, what was going on with the men there at the time? Were they being heroes? What do we know about what was going on? Certainly, there are risks involved in working in the Antarctic, fatalities and tragedies taking place. But the reality at the same time is that for most people, life in the Antarctic has

been fairly mundane, a little bit tedious, maybe boring, especially if you're confined to the station for a couple of years at a time. And so there's this, I think, fear that women might emasculate the Antarctic by demonstrating that, in fact, it's not quite all it's cracked up to be in terms of these masculine mythologies of heroism. And the first woman who worked in the interior of the continent with Bass, a glaciologist named Liz Morris, she worked on the ice first in 1987 to 88. And she said that she suspected that the men who were resistant to her participation might have worried that if, in her words, a middle-aged woman with no particular

physical skills could hack it, then how could they be heroes? But she says that once she arrived, the men realized that her presence didn't make the crevasses any more frightening, didn't make the workload any more or less difficult. And then they began to accept her participation. And I mentioned before her, just before her came, Janet Thompson, the first British woman to be allowed. Tell us a little about her. So Janet Thompson was a geologist who began working with Bass in the 1960s. And when you say Bass, you're talking about the British Antarctic Survey.

I am, yes. And in the 1970s, she was offered an opportunity to participate in an Antarctic expedition with the U.S. Antarctic program. So her first strategy to reach the ice was actually to resign from her position at BAS in order to participate on a U.S. expedition. And that was how she first managed to work in the Antarctic region. And then in the early 1980s, yet another strategy that she employed was women administrators were going south. And when she heard that a last minute trip for scientists was being planned, she said, oh, well, there's empty spaces on this berth. It's last minute.

Why don't you send me? And so Bass was backed into a corner, essentially being unable to tell Janet that she couldn't visit the region since they were sending the administrators. And so she was able to visit the region in 1983. Good old Janet, eh? Jo Johnson, listening to this. It's enough work, I imagine, to prepare to actually the region in 1983. Good old Janet, eh? Jo Johnson, listening to this,

it's enough work, I imagine, to prepare to actually go on this trip, never mind to have to try and sneak your way on or find a way onto it because you're a woman. Yeah, gosh, just listening to that makes me realise how times have changed. You know, I just have so much respect for those people for paving the way for people like me and also is is it a bastion of masculinity when you get there are you seeing men still looking at women like you like come overhead but don't disturb my work no I've never experienced that actually I've been incredibly fortunate to go to Antarctica seven times and I first went about 19 years ago so you know there's a good span of time there but even the first few times I went, I was just really fortunate to have great male mentors amongst my colleagues,

people who sort of took me under their wing and showed me how to operate in Antarctica, how to actually survive and look after myself. Can you describe to us what it's actually like to be there? Yeah. So I spend several weeks, usually sort of six to eight weeks camping in remote field sites on the ice. And I'm a geologist, so I work on the rocks close by. And so I'm going to really remote places, many hundreds, if not thousands of miles from the nearest proper research station or indeed, where people are. So I guess there's a real sense of sort of privilege that I'm doing something

that very few other people get to do, going to absolutely beautiful wildernesses where nobody has ever been before in some situations. And it's just so special. And I think there's a real sense of it being so untouched by humans as well. And it's just incredible really. And you feel really vulnerable in that environment, by humans as well. And it's just incredible, really. And you feel really vulnerable in that environment, I think, as well.

You realise that you're just there alone with maybe one other person and you have to look after each other. There's a kind of sense that you are surviving as well as doing the work. And the work for you is what? What's the focus? So I'm a geologist. I'm using rocks to find out how big the Antarctic ice sheet was in the past. And we need that information to be able to understand more about some of the processes that drive ice sheet changes today. And we're using models to

predict how much the Antarctic ice sheet will contribute to future sea level rise. But we need to be able to sort of ground truth those models so that if they can't reproduce what we know happened in the past to the ice sheets, then they won't be so reliable at producing predictions of what might happen in the future. So it's all about using what I can tell from the rocks to inform us about how the ice sheets can respond to warmer climates. Yes, we've been hearing about this on the programme, the idea of the past informing the future and what you can learn from what has come before from the environment.

We've also been speaking, I should say, to Dr Alison Banwell, one of the leading glaciologists working in the field, who's been out in Antarctica four times. Ironically, she tells us she does hate the cold, but she loves the fieldwork. Let's just hear from her about what she's been out in Antarctica four times. Ironically, she tells us she does hate the cold, but she loves the fieldwork. Let's just hear from her about what she's been studying. What I'm studying at the moment are Antarctica's ice shelves, which are the floating extensions of Antarctica's ice on land.

So if you can imagine, ice is initially on the land and then flows off into the ocean where it floats, not to be confused with sea ice, which is actually frozen ocean water. And these ice shelves, which border about 75% of Antarctica, are incredibly important because they act to buttress the inland ice, which is the grounded ice, from flowing more rapidly into the ocean. So if the ice shelves weren't there, the ice on land would really accelerate into the ocean and contribute to sea level rise. Studying glasses is incredibly important, particularly Antarctica, because it could contribute up to 60 meters of sea level rise if it were to melt completely. And we're finding that a lot of lakes are forming on the surface of these ice shelves and we've shown through modelling and from looking at satellite imagery that these lakes can actually cause ice shelves to break up completely. The best example is of the Larson B ice shelf that broke up in 2002 extremely rapidly

just over a couple of weeks but we think that was due to the drainage of thousands of lakes which pondered on the surface of that ice shelf. Dr Alison Banwell. Well, Alison's team, Rebecca Dell and Laura Stephens, in Antarctica right now, have actually recorded us here at Women's Hour Short Message explaining what they've been doing. For the last 16 days, we have been out visiting stations on the George Six ice shelf that have been tracking how meltwater,

which is the water that arises from the surface of the ice shelf melting, how this meltwater has been moving around and ponding on the ice shelf over the past two years. When water ponds on an ice shelf, it acts as a load on the floating ice, and we can track how the meltwater loads impact the ice shelf by looking at how the ice shelf surface flexes or bends down in response to the load. We're specifically looking at the George VI ice shelf because this ice shelf has the most ponds of all ice shelves in the Antarctic. Another reason we're focusing on George VI is because we can use a satellite imagery record all the way back into the 70s. Becky, you've been looking at these images during your PhD. What was the most interesting thing for you when you saw the ice shelf in real life in

front of you for the first time? I'm normally looking at these ice shelves from the sky and I guess you can kind of imagine it as being an astronaut looking down from the space station and looking at the earth and you have this really broad scale understanding of the ice shelf or the processes that are happening but it's not until you really get to the ice shelf surface, and you see everything firsthand in real time that you start to really understand the smaller scale processes that cause the melt on the ice shelf. So for me, it was really interesting just waking up each day, and I'd, you know, poke my head out the door. And I'd be like, what's the weather doing today? And it was a bit windy, or you know, the temperatures were a little bit higher, it was snowing. And I could start to begin to work out what that meant for the general

melt regime of the ice shelf on that day. And for the days coming forward, which is not only interesting for the science, but was actually interesting for us in a safety perspective, because when the ice shelf starts melting too much, we have to remove ourselves and we can no longer conduct fieldwork there. But the science that we're beginning to see now, I think is really interesting. Yeah, it is quite incredible to wake up and look out your window and see the great expanse of the George Six Ice Shelf in front of you.

I'm also really excited to see what data we have when we come back next year. Rebecca Dell and Laura Stevens there, thank you. Some very vivid pictures painted. And Jo Johnson, to come back to you, you do have to prepare because you have a young family. Yes, so I've got two daughters who are now 8 and 13 years old. So when I went down to Antarctica a few years back,

my older daughter was 3 years old. And then a few years later, I went when the younger one was 2. So that's all they've known, really, in their lives, I suppose, is that I've been going down to Antarctica every few years. It's a different vibe mum's popping to Iceland but it's a whole other journey that has to be made. What do you put in place? I know you've got a partner a husband who does obviously act as a single parent for that time. Yes well I think you can't do it without the supportive people back home, whether that's your partner or, you know, grandparents or just friends, really. Those people who will sort of pick up the pieces of the things

that you can't do because you're not there. And how do you cope emotionally? Because, of course, I mean, I suppose like any job, if you're actually away for some time, but it's a very unique environment. Yeah, I mean, I always find that the week or so before I go really quite difficult. Everybody knows you're going. They want you just to get on with it. And there's that sort of heightened sense of emotion that really, you know,

you know you're going to have to say goodbye soon. And it's always hard, that last hug or whatever. And I think it's probably a lot harder for people left at home as well. I'm going somewhere really exciting for my adventures. And, you know, it's very relaxing for me. I don't have to worry about anything at home. There's one husband back home changing nappies, sleepless nights, all of that. Your holidays in Antarctica. I mean, of all the places I've heard parents flee to, that's definitely one of the furthest. But I suppose keeping in touch is also very important. How

difficult is that logistically? Well, now it's not actually as hard as it was when I first went 19 years ago, when we were just sending very short messages on the radio, and that was getting repeated by emails later to home. Now we actually have satellite phones, so we can effectively send emails quite easily every day or whenever we want. And also you can use the phone just like a normal telephone. So on Christmas Day two years ago ago when I was down in Antarctica, I just phoned home and had half an hour's chat with the children.

And it didn't really seem that different somehow. How long do you go for when you do go? Up to two to three months away from home. So about eight weeks camping is the most that I've done in one stint. It's quite the commitment, but for a very, very rewarding and unusual work. In terms of just to bring you back into this, Morgan, I know you've spoken to a lot of women who have done fieldwork in Antarctica. Is there still an ice ceiling? Yeah, I think there's been a lot of progress made, as Jo said, and the British Antarctic Survey is

led by a woman, the International Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research is led by a woman, lots of women leadership positions. But coming out of the interviews that I did with women who worked on the ice in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, it's also clear that it's difficult to hear the perspectives of women who have experienced gendered challenges, because many of them leave the field because of those challenges in part or in full. And so there have been a couple of studies done worldwide about academic fieldwork and Antarctic fieldwork specifically that suggests that 60 to 70 percent of women experience sexual harassment. And there also is data suggesting that more than 25 percent of women experience sexual assault during fieldwork.

And these challenges are exacerbated for women of colour, for women from the LGBTQI plus community. So there are certainly still barriers. Well, we asked Alison Bunwell about if she has faced gender bias, and this is what she had to say. So I once had a very bad experience doing field work on a Greenland ice sheet, but that was during my PhD. That was over 10 years ago now. I was the only woman on the Greenland ice sheet but that was during my PhD that was over 10 years ago now I was the only woman on the expedition and I was treated very badly but I've not had any experience like that while doing Antarctic field work I have experienced some unconscious bias against women for instance two years ago when I was down in Antarctica because I was leading the project

the project was called the Banwell Project, my surname. But it turned out when we got back to Rothura, the research station, it turned out that everyone on the station had been assuming that Banwell was the man in our group, not me, the younger woman. So this rumour had gone around that he was the leader. And yeah, it turned out obviously that it there was me and everyone needed to be correct but now I'd say there's definitely more women in higher roles these days and I think that's fantastic particularly for the younger early career

generation because they can look up to those people and see them as role models whereas if I look back at say my undergraduate days at university and I looked at all the professors all the senior lecturers they're all male though I mean we just didn't really have any female lecturers at all but that's really changed now at least it has at many universities and you know going to international conferences and seeing women who are leading the field I think it's very important. Jo do you actually think it makes a difference to the research to the work, to have more women involved and women in leadership positions?

Yeah, I definitely think it does. I mean, not even just women, but more diverse teams, I think make for greater creativity. I think women particularly bring their sort of compassionate side. I was listening to Sheila talking earlier about her maternal nature and how that was important. And I feel similar, actually. Some of the skills I've learned from having children I do use in my teams. I think it's made me much more aware of other people's feelings. It helps me to kind of respond differently to people with different personalities. Are you comparing working with those who go to Antarctica to working with toddlers? Sometimes. No, not entirely, but you know what I mean.

Some of them are my greatest friends. Yes, yes, of course. You do learn different things from parenting. Some of the negotiating skills required with children. I've just got this vision when you said you're very maternal and you say, of course, what you work with, that you're just kind of hugging a rock. But of course, that's not the case. No, I mean, I suppose I think sometimes it kind of brings a dynamic to the team that's appreciated by everybody. So if a woman and it's more likely to be a woman, I think says, I'm finding this really difficult because I'm struggling because, you know, I'm really tired. Then suddenly a whole load of other people will say actually I feel the same but it takes somebody to sort of step out of that kind of zone of sort of maybe it's the heroic

feeling you know. Well it goes back to what we were hearing from Morgan before about this perhaps this bravado that still maybe goes along with that that you know we're out here and we've got to be tough. Yeah and sometimes I do things like I try to make sure that everybody is comfortable and happy. I think that's something that women tend to do a little bit more. So I'll bring along sweets maybe to share at a moment where you might feel that everyone's flagging a little bit or things like that. What sweets are we talking? What would you take to one talk? I'm all about the snacks. Jelly babies, definitely. Other sweets are available, but I want to picture what gets you through, Jo.

Yeah, jelly babies, definitely. I think it's the sort of citrusy flavours because we don't have any fresh food down there. So having fruity flavours is just really appreciated by people. What are you eating if there's no fresh? What are you on? Are you kind of on army rations like sachets? Yeah, it's not as bad as it used to be. It's sort of dehydrated food that you pour boiling water into and it dehydrates quickly.

And jelly babies. Jo, Justin, absolutely lovely to talk to you. You stay safe and thank you for sparing the time to take us into your world. Morgan, have you made it there yet? Have you made it to Antarctica? Yeah, I actually worked for the US Antarctic program. I'm from the US. So I spent two seasons at McMurdo Station, Antarctica.

You have, because I know you grew up in New York. And I'm just wondering why a kid in New York dreams of Antarctica. I think a lot of kids dream of the polar opposite of what they're used to. Excuse the pun. Exactly. And growing up in the concrete jungle of New York City, I was dreaming of places where nature was very big and powerful and people were very small in comparison.

And I got it into my head that Antarctica would be the furthest I could get from home. Well, thank you so much for talking to us today. Pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on. Morgan Sieg there and Jo Johnson. Well, heading to the cold of the Arctic and the Antarctic wrapped up in the right gear in the name of research and intrigue is one thing. But there are some women choosing to immerse themselves in freezing water,

even in winter, closer to home, sporting only a swimming costume. Hayley Dorian is one of them. She set up a swimming group called Wild Sea Women to embrace the waves of the North Sea. But are there proven benefits of cold water swimming beyond the shock to the system and that addictive feeling of being alive? Well, Hayley joins me now, along with Dr Heather Massey, who works in the Extreme Environments Lab at the University of Portsmouth. Welcome to you both. Hayley, why the lure of the cold water? I saw it as like a meditation. I've never been a want to be able to sit and meditate

and so going into the cold water you're just brought to the present moment so I just enjoyed the buzz I'd get out of the cold and how I'd feel afterwards. And then you wanted to share that with people. So yeah, I began this in June 2020, in the middle of lockdown, because I'd been doing this myself for years. And after trying to get lots of friends to try it for the health, mental health, physical health, I didn't have much luck. And then during lockdown, I just put a post out on social media, asking if anyone would join and there was a overwhelming response there was 25 women turned up and you're in you're in swimming

costumes swimming costumes yeah I mean there are some who come wearing a wetsuit just people wear whatever they want leggings t-shirts I'm only raising this because a friend of mine says with great pride that she would never wear a wetsuit. And I believe there are very strong views on this and that lots of the men she sees swimming are always in wetsuits in the colder times of the year. And women are in swimming costumes. Why are you smiling like that? A knowing smile. Tell me more. Yeah, I just think women are a little bit more hardcore. Well, let's test that with Heather, actually. Dr. Heather Massey, welcome to this programme. I know you are also a wild swimmer, but you're researching the effects of cold water immersion. Before we get to men versus women, what happens to our bodies when we actually go into cold water, when we have a dip in the sea?

Well, there are a number of stages, Emma. The first sort of stage of cold water immersion is that initial part where you're getting in. And that's about cooling the skin. And that skin cooling results in something called the cold shock response. And that's really sort of manifested by a gasp and uncontrolled breathing. The next step after that is to start to cool the skin and superficial nerves as well. Those cooling of the nerves can mean that our swim stroke becomes less coordinated. And these all things happen before we start to cool the deep body. So once you get out of the water, you continue to cool,

even though you're out of that cold water. And so it's really important that you get dry out of your wet kit and dressed as quickly as possible. Now, that means that about 30 minutes or so after you've got out of the cold water, your deep body temperature could be much lower than it was immediately after you got out of the water. And so it's going to take quite a long time to rewarm, possibly three to four hours. Okay. And I'm just trying to think through then then when you're in your group or doing this on your own Hayley what is it when you get in and then get out that you feel or certainly report as benefits and how are those around you feeling? It's just that whole adrenaline

rush you know you're going in you're facing your fears and it doesn't really get any easier you know we have been doing a few years but you still get that same response in your body and it's difficult every time you go in so it's just that whole you know the release of all those good feeling hormones when you get out and you just your skin feels tingling you just feel alive. Is that true though Heather? Well yeah actually that is the cold shock response that is part of that cold shock response that you have those stress hormones responding to that initial immersion in cold water. And again, also you get the adrenaline cortisol, but you're also going to get things like the serotonin levels increasing as you get out of the cold water that gives you that post swim high. So it's all about keeping your dip short. So keeping it so that it's just that initial response. That's when you're

going to feel the benefits of cold water swimming how short we talking here it's a lot of effort get in get there get your stuff on how long are we talking well the cold shot response uh it starts as soon as you're immersed in cold water and can last up to three to five minutes depending on how well uh climatized to the cold water you are. So it's not actually swimming, this. It's jump in and see how you feel. I'd go away from the idea that we should jump into cold water. Getting into cold water is something that can be relatively short, and particularly at this time of year.

If our head is underwater when that cold shock response occurs and we're breathing in, we're going to breathe in water. That's good advice. But you're saying about five minutes max in this absolutely yeah if you're not acclimatized to being in cold water five minutes is more than you need hayley how long do you go in for this time of year probably is about 15 minutes but if we're doing it as a group um i suggest like one minute to three minutes at this time of year. The wild sea women will literally stay in for just a few minutes. Just for a few minutes. It's just getting in and sort of coping, isn't it?

Yeah. So for me, for my group, we're dippers. We're wild sea women dippers. Dippers. OK. Heather, I think you're more of a swimmer. Am I right? Yes, I do. I do swim in cold water. but also at this time of year, it's for very, very short periods of time. And just give us some temperatures, Heather, you know, where's the threshold? Okay, so sea temperature during the summer can range from between about 15 to 20 degrees, depending on where you are in the UK. So that's still classed as cold water, and will still give you that cold shock response. When we're coming into February, March,

water temperatures can be as low to three to five in coastal areas. And obviously, if we're inland, the lakes or rivers can freeze. So we can end up with freezing cold water. I think it's good to have used the word dip. I mean, still very hardy to go and do it, but you might be thinking, Hayley, what's the point? Can you convince somebody listening that this is for them? so you know there's all these benefits you're building brown fat in the body so this often talks people into it because the brown fat burns the white fat

right so i see it as a lazy way of going to the gym because literally three minutes and it's a cardiovascular workout as well as the feel-good benefits heather do you buy into this the brown fat argument we as adults do have a certain amount of brown fat but whether it actually aids our heat production is is still debatable but there's a lot of experiential evidence from people that swim outdoors and just dip that their immune function may be improved there has been a study from the Netherlands that looked at cold showering for 30 seconds against a control group that didn't.

And those that cold showered for just 30 seconds had a reduced self-reported sickness absence by 30%. You're doing a dip, I believe, Heather, on New Year's Day. Is that right? Yes, it is. Yes, with some friends. Okay. It's a long period of time.

Where are you going and what's the plan straight after? I mean, cups of tea straight away or tell me about your post-match plan. Well, actually it starts before I get in. So we have a camper van that will gently heat so that we can get changed in a warm environment. Smart. The hot flasks of tea and coffee will be ready for us to consume and normally a big piece of cake. Oh, lovely. OK, but I have now got to return to why a lot more men anecdotally seem to wear wetsuits over women who wear swimsuits. What are the differences between women and men when you're thinking and talking about our ability to cope with the cold, especially with water? A man and a woman who are of roughly the same body size and body mass, the woman would have more body fat and so be better insulated from the cold water than a male of the same body weight.

And so that insulation would mean that they're able to stay warmer, their deep body temperature will be warmer for longer if they were doing exactly the same type of exercise. Oh Hayley feeling grateful for that brown fat now aren't you? It's good to hear the signs though isn't it you could confront some of the guys perhaps with that when's your next swim planned? Okay so I do mine at Seaburn but they're all up the northeast of England and also some in Scotland so our next one our next big one is New Year's Eve oh okay and what's the plan we normally have a fire do some breath work some movement before going in the sea some dancing just a new type of New Year yeah lovely what an invigorating way to start the New Year and and the women that you swim with have

you formed a bond has it been something that's really brought you together? Yeah, it's been amazing, especially during lockdown and things. It's just brought everyone, you know, we've just got that connection, that big community support. Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. Well, all the best with it. Stay safe. Thank you. You as well. Oh, I will. I'm not going anywhere near where you are. And Dr. Heather Massey, thank you very much to you. Thank you. And thank you for your company today. Very warm company throughout this very cold programme. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. From the makers of the Battersea Poltergeist, a new podcast series for BBC Radio 4. Uncanny.

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