Woman's Hour - Women priests, Treasuring your mother's memories, Violent women on TV

Episode Date: March 12, 2019

Twenty five years ago today, women were allowed to become priests in the Church of England. Thirty two women were ordained that day at Bristol Cathedral and now there are nearly six thousand women priests who are women. We speak to one of the first women priests and Rachel Murray who will be ordained this summer.Lesbian and bisexual women say they often feel invisible to their doctors and nurses. Some report being asked inappropriate questions or ignored while others say they’ve been discouraged from taking up vital screening. Baroness Liz Barker is and an ambassador for LBT women’s health week and joins us to explain how healthcare professionals can recognise their needs and experiences.When Elma van Vliet’s mother was diagnosed with inoperable cancer she decided to create a book to record her mother’s memories. In a blank diary she asked all the questions that she’s always wondered about but never asked. Questions like what were you like as a child? How did motherhood change you? And what special things have you achieved in life? Realising how precious these family stories can be, Elma decided to publish her template book so that others could collect their mother’s stories. ‘Mum, Tell Me’ is the first in a series that have sold millions. Jane speaks to the Dutch author about what she learnt about her mother and why she wanted to share the experience.Writer Phoebe Waller Bridge who also adapted Killing Eve told Andrew Marr that she thinks watching violent women on TV is empowering. We discuss these comments with two guests with their thoughts.Producer: Sej Asar

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and thanks you've downloaded the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday the 12th of March 2019. On the pod today, are lesbian and bisexual women invisible to their nurses and doctors? Is it empowering to see women being violent on telly? But we start with the fact that 25 years ago to the day, women were allowed to become priests in the Church of England. It had been quite a long battle to get to that point, and 32 women were ordained on that day at Bristol Cathedral. There are now nearly 6,000 women priests in the C of E. However, a recent dispute at Wakefield Cathedral has highlighted that there are still some people around who feel very passionately that women should not be priests.

I talked to Rachel Murray, who's going to be fully ordained this summer. She's already a deacon in Gloucestershire. And to the Right Reverend Jackie Searle, Bishop of Crediton. She was one of the first wave of women priests back in 1994. And she was in our studio in Exeter this morning. I asked Jackie what she remembered about being ordained. I was ordained in London in April, 25 years ago. And it was the most wonderful experience.

And obviously we'd seen on television, because it was televised, the Bristol ordinations heard those wonderful words about, you know, the Holy Spirit coming for the office and work of a priest. And it was really spine tingling. And obviously it had been a long time coming. And so there was great celebration on that day. Where did it all start for you? When you were a little girl, I'm assuming that you'd ruled out the idea of becoming a vicar. Well, when I was a little girl, Jane, I was brought up in the 60s. So that wasn't on my radar at all. We read books like Air Hostess Anne. No, it wasn't. It wasn't anywhere near. But I was a Christian from a young age. And I did feel if you were to press me on it called

to serve God. And I think that everyone who is a Christian has that call, actually, to serve God in some way or another. And for me, that kind of clarified as I got older. I trained as a teacher, and it was while I was teaching in my 20s, part of my church, that I began to sense I need to explore this. I don't know what it means, but I think it means ministry in the Church of England in some way. Now, I gather that at your ordination, somebody, and you describe it brilliantly and describe the emotion, but somebody did object, didn't they?

That's right, because there is a moment in every ordination service after these very serious promises and declarations have been made. There's a moment when the whole congregation are asked, is it your will that they should now be ordained? And of course, the response is it is. But at that point, someone was allowed to stand up and object and say, it's not my will. This was in St. Paul's Cathedral. It was absolutely packed. And he was allowed a certain amount of time in which to put forward his objections. And you can imagine that was terribly painful actually at that moment. But what happened afterwards was that

the question was put again to that packed congregation and cathedral, is it your will that they are ordained? And the whole place completely erupted and people were on their feet and cheering and clapping and really shouting out it is and that's really been so important as we remember this wasn't just a few people having a good idea it had been so thoroughly explored and was and is the will of the church of england but there are still people like that man aren't't there, who believe that it is not right, that it is not fitting. And the experience of the people at Wakefield Cathedral does illustrate, this is all very recent, does illustrate that that view is still very much around. Just for the benefit of listeners who don't understand what's been going on in Wakefield, can you take us through that? So what had happened was that somebody who is unable to accept for his own theological convictions that women can be priests wanted the names of those who will be presiding at the service to be published so that he could choose whether to go or not. And a recent report has said that whilst it doesn't have to be published, that actually it is a reasonable request to ask

in advance for that information. Now there are all sorts of questions to be raised about that. We have in the Church of England these five guiding principles, one of which is about the mutual flourishing of many different groups and understandings within the Church of England.

It's very important to us that we're a broad church and that we hold together. But mutual flourishing is one of those phrases that I think still needs some further exploration because it's also about the mutual flourishing of the women clergy in those places. So I think there will be further discussion about this one. Now, the person who objected in the Wakefield example happened to be a man. But it's true, isn't it? There are plenty of women who feel the same way as him. Yes, that's right. And some of those reasons are to do with the Roman Catholic Church not choosing to ordain women at this time

and therefore this sense that, well, does the Church of England have that right? And there are many other reasons that people hold with conviction. And I suppose one of the things that it's important to remember is that the Church of England made the decision to ordain women as priests and now, of course, as bishops, which is wonderful. We've come a hugely long way with that but we are choosing to live together with those differences of theological understanding. Well Rachel as I said at the beginning you're working in Gloucester you're a deacon there and

the Bishop of Gloucester is a woman of course. Your dad was a vicar Rachel but your mum interestingly didn't like the idea of women priests. Has she been able to change her mind? What's happened? Well, she won't mind me telling this story, but when I was 16, I joined the Movement for the Ordination of Women while she joined the other side. So we had quite engaged debates at the Sunday dinner table. Yeah, I bet.

However, it is with great credit to her. She hadn't seen women in that position. And so over the years, as she's seen women be fantastic priests, she came round. So by the time in 2010, when I said to her, I think I might have a vocation, she very commendably didn't drop the dinner plate she was washing up and said well you'd better go and talk to a vocations advisor and she has been one of my greatest supporters. Yeah it must have been tricky though at that dinner table for you to be so passionate about your desire to fulfill your ambition and I gather that she really was equally vociferous on the other side. It wasn't my ambition then I had no idea when I was 16 that this was going to happen.

But you felt other women should get the chance? I certainly did, yes. What is it then that women, I mean, let's look at it the other way around. What do women or what can women offer in these roles that men might struggle to do? I think it's really dangerous to define it by gender because I think God calls us as people. And so it's what we as people can bring to the role. I mean, Bishop Rachel, I really admire what she says about young people and body image, and to sort of build confidence in children, because of course, girls are desperately happy, particularly with their appearance. And that's damaging to mental health and self-esteem and well-being. Now, is Bishop Rachel saying that because she's a woman or is Bishop Rachel saying that because that's what she feels as a person? We all would agree with her. Yes. I mean, and you think that's an example of something that a female bishop might say in public that a man wouldn't or couldn't?

I don't think I see that. I think men would be very much behind it. OK. Let's talk about... I imagine that you, Jackie, would say that you owe a great debt to those women who actually campaigned for many years and never got the chance to fulfil their ambitions. Absolutely, and I was so aware of that being in London Diocese that there were those who did come to be ordained. Some were quite elderly at that point.

And you knew that they had offered this faithful ministry and service all of their lives and did live to see it. And of course, there were those who didn't. So yes, at every stage in church life, you're building very much on the faith of those who have gone before, for which I'm so grateful. Rachel, what will happen after you've been ordained? What will change? After I've been ordained, then I'm able to do certain specific more services. I can celebrate Holy Communion. I can marry people. So, yeah, more services. And people take you, what, more seriously? What would you say about people's reaction to you? And indeed, what kind of reaction do they have now when you meet strangers and then tell them what you do for a living? Yeah, I think I've been really fortunate in where I am, because

I have had very little experience, in fact, virtually no experience of people objecting to me because I'm a woman. I've had one difficult conversation with actually a fellow priest, a man who decided recently that he couldn't accept women's ministry. So I went to have a conversation with him. And I was surprised how painful I found it to sit opposite someone who I respected, who was telling me that he did not believe that I was called by God to be a priest. And so, I mean, we do owe a huge debt of thanks to the women who were first ordained to you, Jackie, and women like you, because you must have been coming up against that all the time. And it was a hard conversation to experience.

Yes, it was. It was. But then the church actually is committed to having these kind of hard conversations. And, you know, I just happened to be there at that time. And it was both a great challenge, but also a great thrill to be making history at that moment. And it was both a great challenge, but also a great thrill to be making history at that moment. And I'm still open to having those conversations. You know, we're not there yet, as you've been pointing out. And I'm very open to having those conversations and to help us continue on this journey. I have to say, it does seem that an extraordinary amount of patience is required to be involved in those conversations. I'm not sure I could conduct those conversations on a regular basis and keep my equilibrium.

Let's put it that way. We've also got to acknowledge church attendance is dropping. So since women have been allowed to become priests in the Church of England, church attendance hasn't gone up. In fact, I put it to you actually that over the course of a week, many more people listen to Woman's Hour than go to church in the Church of England. What would either of you say about that? Rachel? I think one of the big challenges is how we provide church to people now. There is deep spiritual need. More people go at Advent and Christmas.

More people engage on social media. The worshipping community rose in 2017 to 1.14 million people. So church isn't just what people do on Sundays. And I think we have to take church outside church. For example, I'm putting on Good Friday, a production called Way of the Cross. It's a passion play telling the story of the last hours of Jesus' life in Winchcombe, where I'm curate. And, you know, because what happens, what happened that day didn't happen in church. It happened out on the streets. So I think what, as church, we have to do is think of new ways of taking church out

and meeting people in their spiritual need. And I think this is when you decided you could and should become a priest, when you were actually at quite a dull church service. Oh, yes. Yes, it was in 2010. And I went to a midnight mass with my sister. And Christmas Eve is a night of the year that whatever you believe should be filled with magic and anticipation. But unfortunately, this service was so mundane and boring.

And I looked around at all the families that were there who don't normally go to church. And I just sort of wanted to tear my hair out. And I thought, ah, the church was losing them right there and then. Exactly. And I thought, I could do this better. So God's getting to me through my vanity, really. And then it was as if there was this sort of yes inside. And I thought, no, no, I didn't mean that. But it didn't go away. And it didn't go away and it didn't go away. And so that was really what started me on this journey. Well, best of luck to you.

Thank you very much for talking to us. And I hope the ordination goes well in the summer. That was Rachel Murray. And you also heard from Jackie Searle, the Right Reverend Jackie Searle, who's the Bishop of Crediton. This is a tweet from Steve. Typically, Woman's Hour is making everything a gender issue. Whereas the guest priests on the show are making the point it's about people, not gender. Steve, there is a clue in the name of this programme,

so we do tend to make gender references as we go about the course of events. But you're very welcome to carry on listening, of course. And you're welcome to interact with the programme at BBC Woman's Hour whenever you want, about anything you want. And some of you already have on our next subject, which is about lesbian and bisexual women, who say they often

feel invisible to their nurses and their doctors. Some, and this is important, some report being asked inappropriate questions or getting ignored basically, while others say they feel they've been really discouraged from taking up important health screening. We're going to talk to Baroness Liz Barker, who's here. Welcome to the programme,

Liz. Good morning. Good morning. Lib Dem Peer, an ambassador for LBT Women's Health Week, which is this week. So let's, first of all, why the need for a health week for lesbian, bisexual and transgender women? Well, the NHS constitution says that it exists for everybody, regardless of sexual orientation. But the reality is that it doesn't. Many, many NHS reports, the NHS long term plan, the five year forward plan, the five year forward plan for mental health, and even plans which are about women's health consistently ignore and omit completely lesbian women. And in addition to that, the professional bodies ignore us too. Last year, you might remember that the BMA, last August, produced a huge report on women's health inequalities.

Didn't mention us at all, even though you did a lot of programmes about it. And because we get ignored and because there is a lack of medical training, that means that when individual practitioners, it comes down to whether or not individual practitioners actually bother to read the many reports that have been in the last decade. What about the government's LGBT action plan? Well, that was interesting. 110,000 people replied to the consultation.

And across all of the four initials, health was by far the biggest issue. And what they have done is to respond by making a part-time post in NHS England with an advisory board, which is due to be appointed sometime soon. Not sure what resources they're going to have or what the plan's going to be. And interestingly, Maria Miller's Women and Equalities Committee is currently conducting an investigation, an inquiry into LGBT and health. And I'm hoping that quite a lot of that will go towards giving us the ammunition to challenge the NHS leadership, which is a failure of leadership, and the professional bodies. One of our listeners has tweeted to say,

the assumption is that you're straight and you've got children. And I think this is at the heart of what you're saying, that too many women engage with the NHS and those assumptions are made about them and their lives. But what I want from you is how that impacts on a woman's health. Well, how it impacts is that you will be there and I can say this from my own experience. You'll be there perhaps going in for a cervical smear. And suddenly the person starts talking to you about contraception and about your husband and all of that.

And at that point, your faith in that health proficient professional just goes and you've got two choices do i do i brazen it out and have a big argument here or you don't need to have a big or do i or do i just think i'm gonna leave and get out of this and what i think happens is that a lot all of us make the calculation about whether or not it's safe to come out to our health professionals. And if it's not right and there's no indication in the room or in the building that it's safe to do so, probably you don't. Maybe if you're brave, you do. But as you know, that's the main interaction that most adult women have with health services. And they're not just an opportunity to talk about

your reproductive health, they are the opportunity to have the general health care. And that, I think, is what a lot of lesbian women miss. Because some women, and I do know them, professional women who absolutely understand the importance of screening will not go because they have been treated so badly. Right. I mean, it's disturbing to hear that, by the way. But, of course, we have to acknowledge that there are plenty of healthcare professionals who are not themselves heterosexual. Correct. And surely they would not behave in that way.

No, they wouldn't. But it's a matter of a lottery. When you turn up, who's your appointment with? And I don't think it should be like that. I think we should have a consistent standard of treating women lesbian and bi women and we have the same right to expect to be to be respected as anybody else who uses the health service and I just don't think it's good enough that there is this sort of corporate thoughtlessness throughout the NHS. Right so how do we change things? Well we've got lots and lots of research a lot from Lesbian and Gay Foundation, Beyond Babies and Breast Cancer.

We know that what we need to do is, first of all, to start monitoring, start asking people what their sexuality is, to get some data, to get some proper research funded, to challenge the professional bodies and those who do education to make sure that, you know a it's not down to individual practitioners i mean i have to say jane you know you know i guarantee you the one way to watch a gp's head explode is to tell them you're a lesbian it works every time okay it could just tell me take me take me there please because this is 2019 um and you're telling me that a gp expresses amazement yes i am um woman in one of the reports said that she went along for a... The GP asked her, did she use condoms? And she said,

no, but he'd stop ranted for 10 minutes about STIs and all the rest of it. She said, I'll tell my girlfriend to be careful in future, at which point the bloke went puce and stuck her for an injection that she really didn't need. Now, that's funny, but actually it's not. It's funny, but it's not. There funny it's funny but it's not there's

a really serious underside of this because we have poorer health outcomes than you do we have gotten problems with weight we've got we've got with higher incidence of problems with mental health that's because we face discrimination and we have to get through that we've got figures we've got higher incidence of smoking and alcohol and our life our health outcomes are not as good. And being treated in a somewhat dismissive way by health professionals does not contribute to decent mental health, does it? Nor does being ignored, no. Okay, so answers then. Let's tackle the I didn't know about the fitness issue.

Why is that an issue? Well, we're not really sure, but there are a number of different studies that tend to show that lesbians tend to have a higher body mass index than the heterosexual counterparts. Gay men, on the other hand, tend to be underweight. There's a whole load of lifestyle factors probably going on in our community. It's a community which until recently organised itself around bars and so on so what we need to do is get health professionals to engage with this to understand that we've got we've got a load of um not we need more research data but we have

certainly got a lot of a lot of discussions with people where they talk about their lives and to get that training into them into the medical professionals so that when they do see us they're not working on a basis of either total ignorance or in some cases fear that makes them come out with things which are completely inappropriate. I know that when you go to an antenatal clinic, you go to the toilet and there is a poster on the back of the toilet door and it's very sad this, but alluding to the fact that actually domestic violence is likely to increase during pregnancy.

And if you are one of those very unfortunate women who's been affected by it you're allowed to take a sticker from the toilet door and then put it on your file which tells the health care professionals that this is you and you're in that situation without you actually having to say so. Would something similar help lesbian and bisexual women to access the right health care? It probably would, but that would depend on there being professionals who were trained and who knew how to respond appropriately. I mean, I do recall having a conversation with Jess Phillips MP when she was in hospital and she said two people in the next bed were lesbians. And everything that the health professional said to them was just irrelevant. So I think we need people like the Royal Colleges

to work with their own staff to work out what the proper response would be when somebody tells you that they're a lesbian or bi woman and that their health and their reproductive health isn't centred around men. Right. It's really interesting to get your perspective. Thank you very much. And I'm conscious that this isn't something that we've talked

about before. I can't remember us talking about it on the programme which is probably a failing so I acknowledge that Liz. So if anybody would like to contribute and you've got your own stories to tell then we can I'll certainly read as many as I can in the podcast available later but keep your tweets coming because there have been a fair few already at BBC

Women's Hour. Thank you. Thank you Liz, I appreciate your time. Now, tomorrow we are discussing our regular parenting conversation and tomorrow we're talking about children's friendships. And this is such a difficult area. If you feel that your child is struggling to make friends or to maintain friendships, make sure you're listening to the programme tomorrow. Jenny is talking to Tanith Carey on the show tomorrow.

On Friday, I'll be chatting to the Labour MP, Rachel Reeves. She's written a really interesting book called The Women of Westminster, The Women Who've Changed Politics. And a quick heads up, you will not want to miss La Bezza. Mary Berry is on Women's Hour next Tuesday. And I can tell you now that we're going to be making a trifle. I really do think my life, I've said this before, but I think my life peaked when I did a Christmas phone-in with Mary Berry and people rang up to talk about turkey, gravy and giblets.

And I drank sherry and ate some of Mary's chocolate log. Well, it's about to peak again next Tuesday when we make the trifle. So make sure you're there next Tuesday for Woman's Hour and Mary Berry. Now to Elmer van Vliet. Welcome to the programme, Elmer. Thank you. You are a very interesting woman. Your mum was diagnosed with inoperable cancer

back in 2004, and very sadly she has died, hasn't she now? She has, yes. Yeah, but it was around the time of her diagnosis that you began to think about your mum and about all the questions you wanted to answer. You wanted her to answer about her life. So tell me what happened then. What did you give her?

Well, exactly as you said, you know, when I heard that my mom was very ill, I kind of panicked because I realized that there were so many questions I never asked. Questions on who she was when she was a little girl. I mean, my favorite recipe for chicken soup that she used to make. Yeah. So I decided to write all these questions down and I really wanted answers to it. So I asked my mom, I said, Mom, could you please give me the answers to all the questions, you know, and she loved answering them. And what happened is really we got talking on a whole different level. I think before she got ill, we talked, of course. I mean, but we talked about the busyness of life. How was your day?

What are you doing? Oh, I'm really busy. I need to do this or that. But I never actually asked her about who she was when she was younger. You know, she was just always my mom. Yeah, well, that's the problem. Those of us who have still got my mom are very fortunate to be in that position. I've also got two children, neither of whom really think I had a life before I had them.

And that, in a way, is how we all feel, isn't it? Well, I think it's also how it works. I'm a mom myself. And the moment you become a mother, you're, you're, you know, first you take care of the children and the children look at you and then it's all about them. And I think that's, that's normal. That's what happens. And I think, um, for me, there's always a moment in time when you realize that your mom is more than just your mom. For me, it was when I heard my mother was ill, but for other people, there's different phases in life

where you actually realize that. And I think it's so important, but also so great to learn about your mother as a person. Like I, as you said, I never actually thought about her being a girl with her own dreams and wishes for the future. And I think that is so important to know

because you also learn about yourself and who you are. Well, this has resulted in what is, I think, a publishing sensation. It's a book called Mum, Tell Me. It's come out in Europe and it's now coming out in Britain. It's essentially a blank diary. It doesn't quite do it justice, but you get your mum to fill in all the details.

Yeah, well, it's actually a gift. I mean, it's a gift book and probably the only gift book in the world which you give to a mother and then you want back. So it is a gift that you ask her. Basically, the question you ask your mom is, Mom, I care really a lot about you. Could you fill in your stories? And yeah, and then you get it back.

But yes, it is a blank book. And of course, I mean, it's beautifully designed. So it has pages for your mom to fill her own stories. But I think it has so much value and it becomes such a family treasure when you get it back with her question, you know, lived a long time actually after that diagnosis, didn't she? But was it not very awkward when you first suggested it to her? Because obviously she knew she was ill. Yeah. She knew she couldn't be cured. She didn't know how long she had. And here you were saying, right, come on, we might not have much time. Can you tell me all about this stuff?

Well, I don't look at it this way. How did she look at it? I think she actually really liked it. Because how often do you ask your mom, Mom, can we, you know, I'd love to learn about you. I think that is actually an act of love. And for me, when I made the book, I also realized, I believe that I didn't tell my mom enough how much I loved her.

And making the book was actually my way of saying, Mom, I love you. I want to know more about you so and I for me it is um if I look at the lives we have nowadays I we live very busy lives and very fragmented lives because we do text a lot and we do what's up but there's all all conversation in fragmented ways and I think if you lose your phone you probably lose half of your conversation it doesn't even bear thinking about. That's a truly terrible thing. You're probably right. Yeah.

What did you learn about your mom that you didn't know? I learned so many things about my mom. I mean, one of the things that I actually loved learning about her is, as you said earlier, you know, for me, she was just always my mom, you know, there for me. And I had this adventurous life and she was, you know, at home home doing things at home but I learned that I was very much like her you know when she was younger she wanted to travel the world and she was very adventurous and I never actually looked at her that way you know and for me to have the stories written down in a book I think is such a treasure to have because it's in handwriting and she put pictures in there and she actually what she did she loved filling it out and she actually started calling family

members for picture of my grandfather so she actually connected the family in writing down her story for me and I know you've got that you've got your mom's book there haven't you and it is full it's beautiful it is full of little photographs and tidbits and scrapbook things. And it's great. How often do you look at it? Does it give you pleasure? Or does it make you sad? It gives me pleasure. I think, as you said earlier, I mean, the and I love it that my books are published worldwide. I think, you know, I discovered my love for storytelling. So for me, so great that so many mothers are now still telling their own stories for their children. But my biggest gift was the gift of time that I had.

I got to spend time with her and I actually connected with her in a way that I never did before. So I learned to love her for who she was and she loved me for who I was. Do you think people will always tell the truth in these books? Or there may very well be some things you want to keep from your children for a multitude of good reasons. I think every mother has a right. So I made the book as an inspiration. And I hope that my story and my mom's story is an inspiration. But I think what's really important, I made the book to help mothers tell their stories and make it really easy.

But for me, what's important is that they feel that it's their book you know they don't need to answer all the questions if they feel there's not enough room for a story they want to tell by all means you know add in photograph add in pictures do not answer it is their book it's not my it's not a lecture book you know it's just an inspirational book for her to fill out and i hope that they love doing it so that they can pass on something that will stay for forever what we have to acknowledge is that not for a start not everybody knows their birth mother or they may simply not have liked their mother or their mother may not have been much good at being their mother what do you think about all that? What about those situations? Well, I think that is absolutely true.

And I actually, I mean, there's this story which actually touched me. There was this girl who wrote me and her mother had passed away when she was six. And she said she was very sad because she never got to really, I mean, she had some fragments of her mother, but, you know, not really. What she did is she took a book and she actually interviewed her grandmother and people that were close to her mother to actually get the answers about her mom because she wanted to learn about who she was and I think we all have a longing to know where you come from because the part you know your family genes whether you like your mother or not is part of who you are and I think you, you know, this other story, I got this letter where

a girl actually said, you know, my mom wasn't a very good mother. You know, she was an alcoholic, and she was never there for me. But I have a father, and he's my total hero. When is this book for fathers coming out? So I think, you know, the definition of family and the definition of the people that really matter to you is yours to make. But you have, you know, I think you know the definition of family and the definition of the people that really matter to you is yours to make but you have you know I think we all in this busy days and age we're 24 7 everything is going on and we have so many fragments and things it's important to know where you come from so there is now a book for fathers the same questions no of course not okay well why not well what I did I mean the the the Mom Tell Me book is the book I originally made.

But when I, you know, when I got this request from this girl, I actually thought, you know, she has a point. I mean, I never intended for me to become an author. But, you know, when I got all those reactions and this letter from this girl, I realized how important it was. So I gave up my job. And what I did for the father's book, I actually made dinners for guys and I flipped burgers and gave him beer. Why? Because that was the only way to get them talking. Well, you know, I wanted it to be also fun. So I asked him, what is it that you want to ask your father?

And I asked the father, what is it that you want to pass on to your sons and also grandfathers? And I think there is a difference in the way men talk and women talk you know and the way we are raised and i my aim is to make the books and also the book for the father uh to make it a book where he doesn't need to worry about structure or telling the story it's just fun to fill out but in the netherlands and i don't know how it's here i mean fathers have a tendency to be more active so you know and the mothers to be more like the the hugging type so your father would probably you know pick you up from a dance if if he does and then say did you have a good time you know and your mom would probably say how was it who did you meet so yes the questions are different in every book because i think you know that's the way it goes

your interpretation would be that men and fathers fulfill a different role in people's lives just slightly different I think they might have different interests you know and different things to talk about let's see what men think of that they can always get in touch thank you very much Elmer it's a really interesting idea thank you and the book is available now

it's called Mum Tell Me and the idea really is that you give it to your mum, perhaps you can sit and do it with her and just fill in, fill in the bits because those memories if you don't get them and collect them and keep them, they are gone and that is terrible, I was only saying to Elmer earlier that what I would give

for a conversation with my grandmothers now I mean it would be remarkable wouldn't it thank you very much, really interesting Thank you. Now you might well have seen or heard about Phoebe Waller-Bridge appearing. I think it was on the Andrew Marr Show on Sunday morning. And I don't think it was live. I think it was a film, a taped interview with her. She was talking about the empowering quality of seeing violent women on television.

I'll just read you the quote from her. People are slightly exhausted by seeing women being brutalised on screen and allowed to see women on slabs the whole time and being beaten up. And in some ways that is important to see. But actually, I think seeing women be violent, the flip side of that is something instantly refreshing and oddly empowering. Now, this has fuelled any number of newspaper columns since that was broadcast on Sunday morning. And we're going to carry it on this morning in the company of Jenyn Younis, who's a surgeon and a comedian. Welcome, Jenyn. Good to see you.

And also Zoe Strimple, who's a historian of gender in modern Britain. She also writes a column for the Sunday Telegraph. Zoe, good to see you too. So we are talking, I suppose, essentially about Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Killing Eve. She's also the person who came up with Fleabag. Killing Eve was something she adapted for telly. Jenyn, have you seen Killing Eve? I started to watch it, but I knew through about halfway through the first episode that I wasn't going to see it through. It was about the second assassination that the sort of the stabbing in the eye murder and I just thought it was a little bit too much

for me. So I knew from that perspective that I wasn't going to see it through to the end. There may be some people listening to this who haven't seen Killing Eve. So I will attempt to describe. Yeah, I mean, well, it's essentially about the relationship between an MI5 operative played by Sandra Oh and Jodie Comer's character of Villanelle, who is an international assassin. That's just about it, isn't it? And there is a kind of there is an attractiveness. They are attracted to each other. There's a magnetic attraction. There's an enormous amount of cartoon-ish, but quite bloody violence.

Do you think that's a reasonable description? I think that's a fair summary. Okay. Zoe, did you enjoy it? I mean, I found it very violent and I'm a real wuss, so I often can't see sort of any blood on screen without cringing. But I still have some sympathy for what Phoebe Waller-Bridge said. Because? Sorry, I was slapping my flat white.

I was re-rooting her. So I think that she's pinpointing something which is true, which is that if you were to say the one tool, the most powerful tool of patriarchy, if we were to use that term, since the beginning, as feminists have written for, you know, at least since the 1970s, violence is it. Violence is the main way that men have sort of kept women subjugated throughout all of history. In her incredible book on the subject, Susan Brown

Miller, sorry, book about rape, Susan Brown Miller's Against Our Will, you know, lays out how in the Bible, it's men's physical strength, superior physical strength, in many cases, that has that sort of enabled patriarchy as such to sort of become what it was. So I think when women inevitably flip that tool way to explore how it could be empowering, how it could be doing, obviously, without, you know, glamorizing violence off screen. Yeah. And that's the difficulty because, Jenin, as a surgeon, you see the all too grim reality of genuine violence. And I think my issue is more with the comment of using the word empowering and violent in the same sentence. I think it's not just from the perspective of my day job, but the fact that there isn't a week

that goes by and I don't hear about another stabbing in London, or I don't read about another horrendous domestic violence case. And yes, I have dealt with patients that have been on the receiving end of horrendous violent crime. And whilst I'm not a trauma surgeon now, I still hear those stories and I sometimes still have to deal with it. And the issue that I have is not so much with the fact that it's a female character plus violence. I have an issue with that violence, however it may be packaged on screen. What I would say, however, and what I do find much more inspirational, much more empowering about what Phoebe Waller-Bridge has done within the entertainment industry is navigate

it so successfully in terms of her being not just an accomplished actress but a writer playwright director and the fact that she has had the freedom to develop characters develop storylines with complexity that are multi-layered but also the fact that at the forefront of her stories are women and i think we should be celebrating that rather than fixate on the fact that there is a character who is a psychopathic murderer yeah lest we forget because that is exactly what she is is. Zoe, OK, take up that point then. Let's just concentrate on the positive prominence of female characters. That's got to be a good thing. I think that we have, you know, we're always trying to sort of pick up on the positive, empowering, strong female characters.

But I think that in the world of drama, the stage TV, there is a space for gratifying a slightly more a darker sense of thrill. And, and again, this word empowerment, which is to do with not women being wonderful and strong, but actually, women being humans, part of this sort of dirty human race that, you know, get is hideous, has psychopaths can be violent. And I think this, this sort of, it's interesting how we continue to see, oh, well, women are the nurturers, women have to be empowering, women have to be strong. You know, one strand of feminism might say, well, no, let's do away with these binaries. Women can be just as bad as men. That doesn't have to be empowering. But it is kind of, it is an interesting way of looking at equality. And so I think there is space for having sort of psychopathic, nasty,

violent women. I think it's very telling that in the making of Fleabag, I think they were told actually they need to keep a lot of that violence off screen or a lot of the blood off screen because it's so distasteful. So, you know, in a way, it's equality of violence is sort of one possible way of looking at it. In fact, if you look at the statistics, men are much more likely to be murdered or to be the victims of murder or violent crime in Britain than women. But that is not what is laid out for our entertainment of an evening. I mean, I've certainly grown up in an era where female murder victims were just part of a plot. So what do we do? And also the newspapers tend to fetishize the murders of, well, we know the murders of young women doesn't mean that the murders of young women are not truly horrendous, but they are given much more coverage, generally speaking,

than the murders of young men. What I would say, and now I've probably got my stand-up comedian hat on when we're talking about fiction and entertainment, is that I am a strong believer in creatives being able to feel at liberty to talk about whatever they want, present whatever storyline they wish, whether or not it necessarily reflects reality. So from that perspective, I take on what Zoe said earlier in that, sure, there is an enormous spectrum of human behavior and human personality. And sure, why not? Why shouldn't we have violent characters on stage or on screen?

I don't object to the choice of character. It's more the use of the word empowering within the context of violence that I object to. I think that we're very far from having a situation where women are, you know, the main perpetrators of violence. So I think it's way too soon to start hand wringing about girls and women being affected by glorified female violence on screen. Women are, the majority of women who are murdered are murdered by men close to them. I still think that male violence is the issue. And I think, you know, we're not even close to sort of making it a sort of even playing field in terms of this. I think we can actually just let our hair down. And those who don't like the violence don't watch those who do can watch and get that thrill. And I don't think we need to worry that women are becoming as bad

as men in the violence stakes at all. That's Zoe Strimple and Jenan Younis on the programme this morning. Henrietta on Twitter said, seeing women being violent, neither refreshing nor empowering. It's a straight-up case of two wrongs don't make a right, being as bad as men, basically. The former trauma surgeon is spot-on with what she said just now. Yes, that's Jen and who, I have to say, hugely impressive, combined stand-up comedy with surgery. Quite a phenomenal human being.

Now, to take up some of the other topics on the programme today, this is from Teresa. As a priest who's a woman, I welcome the discussion and the celebration of the 25th anniversary of the Ordination of Women. But I would draw your attention to the campaign within the Church of England with the hashtag JustAPriest to move away from the term women priests, as it does imply that we're still a bit of a novelty. We'd prefer just to be called priests.

We are called to the same job, admitted to the same orders. We just happen to be women. You don't call men, men priests. No, that's a good point, Teresa. It's like me calling myself a lady broadcaster. Now, to those of you who enjoyed the conversation with Elmer, the Dutch author who came up with this brilliant idea of effectively a book of memories that you give to your mum or your dad,

as she pointed out. She's got a dad's book coming out soon. And then it's up to them, really, to fill in the gaps of their life because, incredibly, it turns out our parents had a life before we were born. I haven't given it much thought. Well, I have really, actually. And I've got some of my mum's good stories. But you need to keep them and treasure them, don't you?

And preferably write them down. This is from Julia. This has really got to me, she says. My mum died when I was 24 and she was only 53. I would have loved to ask her all about her life. Thank you for the suggestion to interview people who were close to her to fill in the blanks. I feel inspired to do exactly this. Well, I really hope you do, Julia, and I hope you get some answers about your mum and about what she meant to other people and indeed her stories and her experiences before you were around. And this is from Kate. When my

mother was alive, she and I had a long conversation, which I recorded on my phone. After she died, I totally forgot that I'd recorded it. And for some reason, I came across it about two years later. And it was so lovely to hear her voice. What struck me most was how we laugh so much together. It was mostly stories of her childhood in London during the war and her naughty little brother. From Susan, my mother and my father wrote a short memoir at my sister's suggestion, telling us about their lives before my sister and I were born. It was really lovely to know what shaped their lives and learn more about what was important to them. It also revealed more of their personalities in

the way they spoke of themselves. These are treasures for us both. I can imagine. And that's a really good idea. I mean, it's obvious that you don't need to buy this book, Elmer's book, although it's lovely. You can just ask your parents to do it. Just write down, even if it's just a couple of paragraphs about where they were born and what their childhood was like and what their mum and dad were really like. Because I think it's particularly interesting. We have a particular experience of our grandparents often see them as really nice people but of course as parents they may have been slightly different and only your parents will be able to tell I hope some of you are following what I'm on about here and this is from Sheila hoping to find out more about family history doesn't always work I did try to find out more about my mother's extraordinary

childhood and her determined and positive outlook on life against all odds. She agreed to talk and let me record. However, it unearthed so much unhappiness and gave her such terrible nightmares I had to withdraw and let it go. All I could do was ensure that present times were good times. Sheila, thank you for making that point because yes, all too often memories aren't great and it sounds like your mum had had a really tough time and all that was brought to the surface. So yes, good point, well made. Thank you for that. And this is a tweet from Jane who just says, you had two girls, I had two girls, but you died at 55 and

you never met them. They're 22 and 28 now how did i do and i think that's really succinct and to the point and makes those of us appreciate those of us like me who've still got their mums around just appreciate how fortunate we are um so thank you jane for making that point as well and on to the conversation about LBT Women's Health Week. This is Cathy on email who, this is brilliant and just illustrates exactly what Liz Barker was making, the point that Liz Barker was making in the interview with me. So Cathy says, I recently saw a specialist who asked me if I live with my husband. And she's written a little play, so I'll do all the parts here. Bear with me. I recently saw a specialist who asked me if I live with my husband. Me. I live with my wife. Him. What? Me. I live with my wife. Him. You what? Nurse. Her partner. Me. No, my wife. Him. Okay, I'll write what you say. I live with my wife. Him. Are you sexually active? Me. Yes. With my wife. Him. In a sing-song voice. Yes, with my wife. Weaker women would have crumbled. We shouldn't have to fight to be seen for who we are. Well, I hope you're listening, Cathy. I apologise for my

pretty poor amdram there, but I was putting everything I had into it, which, as you could tell, wasn't a great deal but that is a really brilliant way of summing up your experience with healthcare professionals so thank you for that. And Ruth on Twitter it's always a bit awkward lying there, legs spread, coming out to your doctor you're in a vulnerable position doing something

you may not have done before and it is scary. Ruth yes absolutely thank you very much for pointing that out as well. Jenny is here tomorrow with the programme and the podcast, and she's dealing with the issue of playgrounds, tussles, childhood friendships, how and when you as a parent could and should intervene. So I hope you join in with that conversation. If you've had issues with your children's friendships, make sure you contact contact the programme get your experience to us via email through the website. I'm back on Friday and I just want to mention on Friday we are doing a comic relief item

I spent some time yesterday with a young woman from Nigeria called Clarence who is now living in South London she's had an incredibly tough time it was so humbling meeting her yesterday and talking to her and just listening to her really. Through a project that Comic Relief is supporting called The Bike Project,

she has now got a measure of independence because she can now ride a bike. It might sound trifling. Trust me, when you hear her, you'll realise how important it is. So that's on Friday's programme. Thank you very much for listening today. Hello, I'm Greg Foot and I'm hosting a new Radio 4 podcast called The Best Things Since Sliced Bread. Have you ever wondered what's fact and what's fad when it comes to wonder products,

face creams, activated charcoal, kombucha, turmeric shots? That's what I'm trying to find out with the help of leading scientists and special guests. If you want to separate benefits from bunkum, subscribe to The Best Things Since Sliced Bread on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story.

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