Woman's Hour - Women pursuing peace, Pelvic girdle pain, New musical Coven

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

Pelvic Girdle Pain, also known as pubic symphysis dysfunction, affects an estimated one in five pregnant women. It is often mild but can sometimes be debilitating and it's been highlighted by a BBC news report that has come out today. It's not harmful to the baby, but it can affect simple things like the mother's mobility. Kylie Pentelow speaks to Victoria Roberton, who experienced Pelvic Girdle Pain during her first pregnancy - she is now coordinator at the Pelvic Partnership, and Dr Nighat Arif, a GP specialising in women's health.It’s been one month since the first phase of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire began, aimed at halting the war, returning hostages, and increasing humanitarian aid to Gaza. However, both Israel and Hamas have accused each other of violating the truce. Despite the fragile ceasefire, some see hope for lasting peace. Kylie is joined by Layla Alsheikh from the West Bank, and Mor Ynon from Tel Aviv - both are members of the Parents Circle Families Forum, a group of bereaved families working for reconciliation.Witches are haunting London’s Kiln Theatre for a brand new, all-female musical about the 1633 Pendle Witch Trials. Co-composer of Coven, Rebecca Brewer, and one of its stars, Diana Vickers, join Kylie to talk about sisterhood, survival and whether their show could be the next SIX.There’s a brand new podcast launching today: CBeebies Parenting Download. It will focus on topical parenting stories, hearing real life experience along with expert advice and parenting dilemmas. Kylie is joined by its presenters: Radio 1 host, author and mum Katie Thistleton, and award-winning rapper and dad of two, Guvna B. Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Corinna Jones

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Take it from here. And don't miss the new season of Karen Piri coming this October. You don't look, let, please. I'll take that as a compliment. See it differently when you stream the best of British TV with Britbox. Watch with a free trial today. Hello, I'm Kylie Pentalo and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast.

Hello and welcome to the programme this Friday. Thank you for your company. We've got plenty coming up today, including I'll be speaking to two women on each side of the Israel Gaza war who have both lost close family. But instead of being in conflict with each other, they're working together, trying to pursue peace across the divide and have now become friends. Also, a brand new musical about witches written by and starring only women. Now it has a brilliant cast, including Diana Vickers of X-Factor fame. She doesn't play a witch, though, but a male prison guard and a precocious 10-year-old boy.

I'll be speaking to her about those comments. roles. Also, to coincide with children in need taking place today, a new parenting podcast from CBB's launching. It's for grown-ups, not for kits, featuring Radio One host, a new mum, Katie Thistleton, and award-winning rapper and dad, Governor B. Now, I was reading in the newspaper this morning about the sad death of the author Marina Levikska at the age of 79. You may remember her best-selling book, a short history of tractors in Ukrainian. But what you might not know about, her is that she was a lecturer in media studies at Sheffield Hallam University, one of my lecturers, in fact. And she once said to me that she thought I had what it took to be a

journalist. That one comment changed the course of my life. And without Marina, I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing today. So that got us thinking. Is there anyone who's helped you change your life for the better? Maybe an inspirational teacher who led you to do what you're doing today. We would love to hear your stories on this. You can text the program. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note. The numbers 0300-100-444. Do get in touch. We would love to hear your views on that. But first, it's an issue that affects an estimated one in five pregnant women, but is little talked about. Pelvic girdle pain, also known.

known as pubic synthesis dysfunction, is a pain in the pelvic joints, which is often mild but can sometimes be debilitating. And it's been highlighted by a BBC News report that's come out today. Now, it's worth saying it's not harmful to the baby, but it can affect simple things like moving around. Victorian Robeson experienced pelvic girdle pain during her first pregnancy. And she's now a coordinator at the pelvic partnership, which is a national charity offering support and information about the condition. And Dr. Negata Reef is a GP specialising in women's health. And Victoria and Dr. Nagat, join me now.

Welcome to Women's Hour to both of you. Good morning. Thank you for all in you. So lovely to talk to you both today. Dr. Nagat, I'd really like to start with you to explain. I imagine there will be a big percentage of our listeners who have never heard of this. So what is pelvic girdle pain? I would say a big percentage of listeners and also probably some healthcare professionals as well, dare I say it, I've probably never heard it. Like you saying, one in five women and

birthing people are affected by this. And essentially, you've got to think of pelvic girdle as these ring of bones that sit around the pelvis. And that is with the sacro iliac joints. And those ring of bones are held by cartilage. They're held by tissues in regards to our joints as well, our muscles and our fascia. And as we, when we become pregnant, as those stomach tissues are being pulled apart, the pelvic girdle areas so that cartilage, the sacred aureliac joints are being pulled apart, the muscles are being pulled apart, and at certain points in the pregnancy, the pain can start. And the myth is that it will only ever happen towards the end of your pregnancy. And actually, that's not true

for some. And we see this mostly with those that already have, say, underlying autoimmune conditions, say hypermobility or connective tissue disorders or elosdanos, you know, those sort of conditions mean that you're probably more predisposed to get it really early. So within sort of the first three to four months into your pregnancy. And it varies so much. It can be so debilitating for some. Others, it could be minor maladoptions that they need in regards

to maybe wearing a belt or a little bit of low dose pain relief or exercises that they might need to do for some. And you've got my lovely colleague with you today who's going to be talking about her experiences as well. But it could be they end up becoming needing to use wheelchairs or assistants or crutches.

Victoria, let's bring you in then. What happened during your first pregnancy? How serious was it for you? So at the beginning, around 20 weeks, I started getting pain first in the pubic bone at the top of my legs. So that's the synthesis pubic joint. For me, it was always on the left side and still is. So I noticed it at first not too much pain,

but with walking, then it gradually increased more and more to the point that later on I started getting pain at the back as well, the sacrioleic joint, again on the left side. and that would happen when I was sitting as well. So gradually it became worse and worse over, I would say a month, it quite quickly got worse. And then I was on crutches for the last three months of my pregnancy the first time. Gosh.

So what kind of treatment did you receive for it then? And was that through the NHS? So I went to my midwife first and I said about the pain that I'd had. Actually, the first person I spoke to who hadn't heard of it, and didn't know why I would be experiencing pain. The second one said, oh, that type of pain is normal in pregnancy. It'll go away after the baby's born. There's, you know, nothing to do about it.

Just keep being active, keep moving and doing the things that you're doing. As it got worse, eventually I saw a private physiotherapist. I did get given appointments for physios through the NHS, but that was online. So I had an online team's call and they gave some exercises, but I wasn't able to do those. and then later I got our referral to see someone after a phone appointment but again that was kind of months down the line so I saw a private physio and that was when they kind of explained to me what it was and the treatment that I had later was manual therapy so she did her hands-on assessment actually looking at how the pelvis was working and she would manipulate the joints and do release on the muscles and things like that. but during the last three months I was on crutches and you mentioned there

that you still feel pain today you did go on to have a second pregnancy can you explain whether you experienced the same and then now how it's still affecting you yeah so after I had my first baby the pain didn't go away

like it did improve a lot I could walk without crutches I'd had an emergency section at the end which didn't I think generally the birth that I had didn't help with the symptoms but it did carry on the pain I had a I don't think I stopped limping in between the two pregnancies after I had the second baby

my symptoms were then quite a bit better but still I would go to the same physio every couple of weeks I would say and she would do the same kind of joint manipulation and that would like put things back into place so the approach now I see how much less only if I have like a kind of resurgence of the pain but also the function the problem that I have isn't just when things are really painful it's that I can't if it feels like something

shifted and I then can't use my leg properly it's too weak like I can't lift it um so after she treats me it's an immediate observable change like my leg will suddenly move better um but the main pain that I deal with now is muscle pain that I think is associated with this obviously your pelvis holds up everything and it's all the stability that you have so all down one side I'll get pain burdened muscles down my leg and at my back

Dr Nengat we heard Victoria say there that she saw private help she went to a physio privately obviously that's not available is it to all people to do that financially is that alarming to you to hear that because I'm guessing you would want

people to be able to get the help that they need locally I know and it is alarming for me as an NHS GP because I see it imminently in my practice as well where there is a wait for up to maybe six months to a year which is not going to be helpful for any women that is pregnant at that time and bear in mind when women are pregnant they're still working and they're still got to get to work they've got to get their livelihood going as well they've got to make sure that they're looking after other members of the family they might have other children as well and the recognition of this early on but I would say it starts possibly even counselling women in the perinatals

or before they become pregnant. So if you know they've got hypermobility, having those conversations, I'm not saying they're the only ones that can get it. But because it's such a common symptom, it's been normalised. It's common, but it's not normal to get pelvic girdle pain

and it's debilitating in circumstances. Unfortunately, we have a postcode lottery at the moment in the NHS. So that's why some individuals like Victoria, and I've got lots of my own patients who will opt to go privately, see a pelvic half physio. Like my dream would be to get lots of pelvic half physios actually in GP practices or where community midwives are with them

so they can run those clinics. Yeah, I can't wave a magic wand. I wish I could to get that. Obviously, we haven't got anyone here from the NHS to talk about and respond to those points. Victoria, I just want to finish with you. There will be women listening to this thinking, you know, thinking about becoming pregnant, maybe, and being concerned about it.

I mean, I think it's worth saying that, as Dr. Gett was saying, there are different degrees of this. But being part of the pelvic partnership, what's your advice to women? I think that, like you said, I think if awareness is increased around it, then that would help massively. My second pregnancy was so much better just because of understanding what it was and what the symptoms were and what that meant. If I'd known the first time around, you know, what this could progress into,

then I could have kind of managed my symptoms differently in that I could have reduced some activities that I was doing in the first place. We've got lots of tips on our website for like day-to-day management of this and things that you could modify that don't aggravate those joints. So if you're going into pregnancy, being aware of things that would be useful to strengthen, like I was quite a fit person, but doing lots of running, cycling, swimming, those types of things. Maybe if I was a bit stronger in other ways, I suspect I'm hypermobile, so strengthening types of exercises might have helped to alleviate things a little bit. But as soon as

you start to experience symptoms, go and speak to your midwife or GP and tell them and don't just accept if they say, this is normal, it will go away when the baby's born. Keep pushing. There is treatment and it can help massively. But you need to make sure. sure that you're getting it. And I think like you said, Nagat said that there's a postcode lottery and there should be more, you know, pelvic health physios. Another problem is that we, people do see a lot of pelvic health physios, but lots of them are not trained in this area. So they aren't familiar with PGP or how to treat it. And therefore, what they do is give these exercises and not quite the right advice. So I think it's not just the access to the physios. It's, you know, the physios being

trained in this as well. So it's another problem with awareness. And, I think trying to make sure that everyone can get the relevant advice is something that we work on quite hard as a charity. You know, it's been going for 23 years. And we're still giving the same advice that this can be treated and it's not something that should just be ignored. Thank you so much for your comments there. And as Victoria said, the advice, of course,

is initially to go to your GP or midwife if you have any concerns. Thank you to Victoria Robiton and Dr. Nogat, Reef for speaking to me. And if you want to learn more, you can listen to Nagamanchettis that time of the month podcast. A really good listen about pelvic girdle pain. It's available on BBC Sounds Now. It's been a month since the first phase of the ceasefire in Gaza between Israel and Hamas was agreed. It focused on halting the war, returning all hostages and securing a surge in humanitarian aid into Gaza. In a moment, I'll speak to two women, both from different communities in this conflict who believe this is a moment to achieve real and lasting peace

between the two sides. Now, just to recap, on the 7th of October, 23, Hamas attacked Israel killing about 1,200 people and taking 251 hostages. More than 69,000 Palestinians have been killed in Israel's retaliatory response. That's according to the Hamasran Health Ministry in Gaza, whose figures the UN considers reliable. The current ceasefire was implemented last month, and so far 20 living hostages and the remains of 25 deceased captives have been released with three bodies remaining in Gaza.

In return, Israel has freed 250 Palestinian prisoners from its jails, as well as over 1,700 detainees from Gaza who were being held without charge or trial. It's also handed over the remains of 315 Palestinians from Gaza. Nonetheless, both Israel and Hamas have accused each other of violating the truth, the details of which you can read now on the BBC website. Now, despite the fragile nature of the ceasefire, could this signal an opportunity for lasting peace in this region?

This is certainly the hope of my next two guests. Lila al-Shik lives in the West Bank, and in 2002, her six-month-old son Kasai died. Lila says Israeli soldiers prevented him from receiving the necessary treatment for an illness. More Enon is based in Tel Aviv. On October 7, 23, her parents, Bilal and Yakov were killed in their home by Hamas fighters. Both are members of the Parent Circle Families Forum.

It's a group set up by bereaved family members to pursue peace across the divide. And I'm delighted to say that they join me now. Welcome to you both. Moore, I'd like to start with you if I can. Can you just start by telling us about the work of the forum? Sure. The Parent Circle Family Forum was established 30 years ago by bereaved parents from both sides. And then it was expanded to include other families who have lost loved ones, not necessarily children.

And the purpose of setting up this forum was to lead by example and to show that people, from both sides share the same grief, the same sorrow, and to prove to the world and to Israelis and Palestinians that if people who have lost loved ones can be in a dialogue, can interact, can see the humanity in the other side, then we believe that anyone can do it. I mentioned earlier about the death of both of your parents on October 7th. I'm so sorry for your loss. What made you want to join the group following such a tragic event? Thank you. After October 7th, two things happened to me. First of all, obviously, I was overwhelmed by emotions. I was so sad and I felt that I lost my entire sense of safety

and security. I was working on the streets in Tel Aviv and I was imagining terrorists coming out of the bushes in the park next to my house wanting to kill me. So I was in a total state of shock and I also became very angry. I was not so much angry at the Hamas because Hamas I thought was a terrorist organization and it didn't have much expectations from from that organization. I was very, very angry at the Israeli defense forces for not being there to protect my family and I was very much angry at the Israeli government, who had financed Hamas for so many years and for believing in this conception that we could just manage the conflict and live normal life besides that. And at the same time, I became very curious about the conflict.

And I wanted to, I knew that it couldn't be that all Palestinians support what Hamas did to my parents and I didn't believe in revenge. And I wanted to get to know Palestinians directly and to be in. in a direct dialogue with them. And I felt that the parent-circle family form was the right organization for me to join. It's worth saying the Israeli government denies accusations that it created or funded Hamas.

Lila, I'd like to come to you if I can. Your son died in 2002. Kassai was his name. Once again, I'm so sorry for your loss. We heard that he died after being prevented from receiving treatment for asthma by Israeli soldiers. So can you tell me the same question to you,

why did you want to join the parent circle? And when did you join? In fact, it takes me 16 years until I take that decision to accept talking to Israeli person. One of my friends, he invited me to the conference for the parent circle. to be honest I was refused in the beginning but he insists and that day I just went there just to make him stop talking about that not because I'm convinced about it because in my entire life I don't hear about these kind of organization but when I arrive and the Israelis start to came in the beginning I refused to be with them in the same room I tried to leave then something happened

amazed me when I saw the Israeli, the Palestinian start to hug each other, kiss each other, not just as a friend, but even as a family members. And then I decided to sit, to listen to them. And when I heard them for the first time talking about how they lost their beloved ones, I was really touched and moved because I felt we share the same pain, we share the same tears, even if we had different circumstances. But we're still human, and nothing worse than losing a child or a family member no one could understand that been unless someone be in the same situation

and for the first time I felt they are human like me they are not my enemy I wonder what people around you thought Lila about that decision to join and has it been

difficult to convince them that it's a good idea before that I just want to say something about what let me continue to be in the forum. At the same night when I lost my son, I have a dream. There is a white dove stand in my shoulder and say to me, Mama, don't cry, I'm so happy. I know he's happy in heaven.

He's just six months old. But at that time, I didn't understand what it means, but when I become a member in the forum, I realized that the white dove is the simple for peace, and that was kind of message from God to tell me, this is your new mission and he didn't want the death of my son went without achieving something. The reaction of my family or relatives or even friends, there is two kind of them. Some of them they encouraged me.

They asked me to continue and some of them they called me that I make normalization or I'm betrayed or these kind of words. But I'm not angry from their reaction because I was there one day. I could understand their pain, their anger, but I start to talk to them in a way to convince them. Some of them, they are convinced. Some of them, they still insist, and they said, we're still under occupation, and their situation is very complicated. We try our best. We try to talk to everyone who want to listen and even who didn't want to listen, because this is our mission.

and we can't just sit aside and waiting our leaders to do something because we believe in reconciliation. Moore, I wonder the same for you, what the response has been from your community to joining the forum? The responses varies. I'm lucky that we are five siblings, so I'm lucky that in my immediate family, we think very much alike,

and my other siblings also joined the forum. So I'm very lucky in this regard, and I got much support from my children and from my husband. From friends and the extended family, the response varies. It's between she lost her mind, she's naive. We have so many other problems, internal problems in Israel that we need to take care of before we can think about resolving the conflict, so she's not connected to reality. but none of it disturbs me from continuing.

I focus on my daily choice to work towards reconciliation and peace and dialogue. And I'm just continue. Lila spoke about what those first meetings were like for her. I wonder what they were like for you. The first meetings were very challenging because I joined just a few months after October 7th and I participated in a dialogue meetings over Zoom, and it's much more difficult to connect, to have the personal connection when it's over Zoom.

And the atmosphere was very, very tense because we were still at the early stages of the war. And it was difficult for me to see the difference between the perception of some of the Palestinian members regarding October 7th. They were exposed to very different media exposure. So for some of them, it was difficult to accept our personal stories of what happened to our families on October 7th.

I think what October 7th did to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, it made the seats changed in a way because Israelis were mostly regarded as the attackers and the Palestinians were the victims in the forum discussion. And after October 7th, many Israelis felt that they were the victims and the Palestinians were the attackers. So it was challenging, but I think we were able. And in the forum, we don't have to agree about everything. But we are committed to open dialogue and to free discussions. You now travel the world speaking about the work of the forum.

It's why you're in London, in fact. And you and Lila recently visited the USA together. What was that like? And for you, too, spending so much time together. So Laila, I'm so sorry you were not in London with me because I think the best thing about the trip to the US was to be with Laila. It's very difficult for you. I really found a new friend.

And it's very difficult for us to meet in Israel. There are very specific locations on which we can meet because, unfortunately, since October 7th, Palestinians don't get any permits to go inside Israel. And our presence in the occupied territories is also limited. And it was really wonderful for us to be together. Lila, what was it like for you? In Arabic, we said you don't know the person until you travel with him. so that was amazing to travel with more we have a dialogue meaning yeah but we have also

funny times we laughed together and that was the best part to find some a person to laugh with them she's amazing person and all her siblings I met them one week ago and yesterday by the way I have a dialogue meeting with my Ann, her other sister. It's so good to hear this relationship between you. We talked about the ceasefire there. I addressed that when I was doing the opening into this item. More do you think this ceasefire will hold and continue into its next phase?

I don't know. I hope so. And I do on every day, I do what I can do. to amplify our message that we must stop the war. We must get to agreement to resolve the conflict in a nonviolent way. And this is what we do. We are not politicians, but we focus on the grassroots and setting up the platform. So the right leaders arrive from both sides, and I believe they will arrive.

then we are as people ready for the next step. Lila, what do you think? I wish if this lost for a long time, but many times Israel and sometimes Hamas, they broke that ceasefire. And I think some people think, oh, wow, ceasefire happened, so it's okay.

I think it's now much harder for both sides when they return back to their normal life and they found how much damaged every side they have. And we don't want just ceasefire. We want a solution because if this ceasefire happened now, we don't want to know when we have another war because every two years, every three years, we have another one.

So we don't want that to continue. We want the solution now. Now, as Moore said, we are not politician, but we try to do our best when our leaders decide to have peace agreement, people will be ready to accept it. Moore, just finally to you, I wonder what the membership of the group has been like in recent years, bearing in mind what's been happening. Has the recent conflict force people away? The other way around, actually. We are 800 members. 50% Israel is 50% Palestinians approximately. And since October 7th, we had the 150 new members joining the forum. And what interesting is that the October 7th event actually triggered bereaved families from before October 7th to join. it's been so fantastic speaking to you both today very interesting and I really appreciate your time and thank you so much to Lila and to Moore for coming on the program thank you very much indeed

thank you so much now we've been asking for your examples of when someone helped inspire you to change your life it's after the death of one of my inspirational lecturers at university author Marina Lovitska. We've had so many comments on this. I just want to read a couple out to you. This one here says, I had an inspirational music teacher at school, Carol Jones. On the day that she left the school,

she called me to the staff room and told me that I should keep going as I had the potential to make a career as a musician. That's what I did. And last week, I performed a piece that she taught me for O-Level nearly 40 years ago. Fantastic.

And this one here from Trudy, who says a guy called George was instrumental in ensuring that I did not give up on doing my MBA. I decided to give up after three months of the three-year course. But George summoned our group of nine to a late evening meeting to work out how they could help me keep on the course. They rallied round and helped me with the first assignment. I decided to continue and completed it successfully in 1995. He changed my life. Fantastic stories.

Do keep them coming in. We, of course, love to hear from you. Now, Halloween is over, but witches are still haunting London's kiln theatre. For something very special, a brand new musical written, directed by and starring only women. Coven is set in a dingy prison cell in Lancashire in 1633, where a group of women have been accused of witchcraft. Now, it's got pop folk and protest songs and a truly fantastic cast. And I'm delighted to say that one of those cast members, Diana Vickers, as well as co-composer Rachel Brewer.

Join me now to talk about it. Thank you so much for coming in to both of you. Thank you for having us. I mean, I went to see you last night. Yes, I heard. I really enjoyed it. I've been talking about it all morning. Rebecca, I want to start with you actually

because you've written, co-written with Daisy shoes. Yep. Tell me why you wanted to write about the Pendle Witch Trials. Yeah, so I started out as an actor and I just really felt like I wanted to be in something or explore something that explored the voices of northern working class women from rural communities. And my background was in musicals

and I just felt like this was an inherently brilliant topic for a musical. It just felt like it had so much energy and life behind it. And, yeah, approached Daisy Chute, who is my co-writer. and so she's more of a singer-songwriter in the kind of roots folk Americana world and that felt like the music that was really in my head that supported and really enlivened the idea musically so we started working together

and then yeah here we are at the kill just if you can summarize the story it starts with a girl called Janet being locked up in a cell with a group of other women are they based on real people yes so Janet Davis was a real person who in 1612 accused her family and her neighbours of witchcraft in Lancashire. Our show begins in 1633, so, you know, roughly 20 years later.

An adult Janet is thrown into prison, suddenly now she herself is the one accused of witchcraft by an 11-year-old boy, played by Diana McHughes. And yes, so the women that Janet surrounds herself, is surrounded with, they're all based on case studies of real women who we found as we were researching in the early days. And really she has to confront the history and the impact of, you know, her experience on the opposite side of the courtroom by having to live in close proximity with these women and see what they experience day in, day out. So, Diana, you're in it. You're playing more than one role. I am. I mean, you are fantastic. Oh, thank you. Very, very funny. But you're

playing men, aren't you? When you got the call, you were like, oh, yeah, I fancy being a witch. And they're like, no, actually. Yeah, it was a bizarre call, my agent court. There's a play about the pendant, which child was like, oh, my gosh. Yes, yes, yeah, yes. And but it's an 11-year-old boy and a male police officer. I was like, right. But then it made, you know, it turns out it's my calling.

Who would have thought it? But yeah, it's been a delight to play. It's very, you know, not really my type casting. But, yeah, I play Edmund, an 11-year-old boy who accused a real person who accused Janet of being a witch, which happened back then. They sort of made up these fabricated stories and they were sort of gospel in court and these women would, you know, be sentenced to death.

And I sort of done in, but it's done in a very fun way. I sort of come into the court and do a little rap and dance and it's all a bit funky. And then I play of Covell who is a sort of very misogynistic, awful, lechy police officer that sort of looks after these. and it doesn't look after, overlooks these women in the cell. And, yeah, he's vile. He's a nasty, nasty piece of work.

You grew up, didn't you, near Pendle? Did you know much about the witch trials? I did. I knew a lot about it, actually. I grew up, so, I mean, I've climbed that hill many a time. And my dad would take me and my sister there when we were little and tell us all about the witches and Alice Nutter. And so, yeah, it felt really nostalgic.

And, yeah, I mean, I'm sure I had probably some ancestors around there. I need to really look at my family tree because, I always feel quite witchy. And so, yeah, so it fell, as soon as I got the call, I was immediately just, yes, get me in there for that audition immediately. There's some interesting themes in the show, Rebecca, common land community and very much how kind of history has recorded or not the lives of women. So was that key to what you wanted to do in Coven? Massively, yeah. And I read a statistic recently that was, you know, 0.5% of recorded history is about women.

let alone written by women, you know, it's just not something that we have. And this story of the witch trials is something that impacted mainly women. I think it's 85% of people who were accused of witchcraft were women. So it just seemed like there was this whole story that has been told from one perspective for hundreds and hundreds of years. And we just wanted to see what it was like to have a bit of a poke around in there and just really try and understand this, you know, forgotten and kind of. hidden away part of history, which is the real human cost as a result of what happened. And as we're saying, it's, you know, it's all women. Yeah.

And that's very clear, you know, the fact that Diana, you play two males in it. And musicals about women in history seem to be quite popular, don't they at the moment? I'm thinking, you know, Six, Sylvia about Sylvia Pankhurst. And Coven actually had its run extended before you even opened. So why do you think it's, why do you think there's this popularity? I mean look we have been just absolutely gifted with this audience who were just on their feet night after night and they feel really galvanised and touched and affected and they seem to really be coming in their droves like you said we sold out really quickly there are still some tickets but we're looking sort of towards Christmas now I think the other thing that's really exciting for us is that of course we've got 13 women on stage and in the band but our creative team and our production team is there are so many women. There's about 15 women our creative team alone.

And it's so unusual for musicals. I think someone's going to have to fact check this properly, but we may well have kind of broken a bit of a record with it because I can't remember another time, another experience, where there's been so many women at the helm of a musical. It just doesn't happen. So I feel like, you know, the work has been told and been created by us, you know, and that's really reaching audiences.

What does it feel like? Dana to be part of that cast that's all female? It's just super empowering honestly. I'm in this room with the most incredibly talented, I'm in awe of every single person and in the room and obviously it's new so seeing you guys at work

as well, you and Daisy sometimes like coming in with these fresh rewrites. It's a new show so you're constantly rewriting and figuring it out and working things out and Miranda our director was absolutely incredible and yeah it just felt really really inspiring and just you can feel us

all supporting each other. Like before we start a show as well, we sort of like getting this gorgeous circle and we feel like a coven and we hold in the bottom of each other's the spines and we really just lean into each other and we support each other. And it's just, there's just so much love

and it's beautiful. Yeah, it was so bizarre in rehearsals. Occasionally a man was sort of like come in the room and then we'd be like, who is this? Who, you know, who is? Yeah, but so yeah, very empowering and yeah. It really is a mix of styles, isn't it? Is that something you one?

to do or did that kind of happen organically? Yeah, so as I say, so the music is written by myself and Daisy Chute and we, so, you know, Daisy's background is kind of folk and roots Americana and that was really the original impulse musically for the show because it's kind of, you know, for our story talking about rural women, it felt like folk, you know, the music of the folk was a really good place to start. And then it grew and grew as we were gifted with more incredible. people in the cast to be able to sing. And they are incredible.

Wow. Amazing. But I think for us, the thing that was really exciting was to really make this musical world as rich as the diversity of the people who were involved in these witch trials. You know, we have one of the characters, Francis, who is the wife of a wealthy landowner. Her song, she's very religious.

And her song, Redemption, is, you know, has moments of being really classical with this kind of like undertone of metal and kind of rock underneath because her character is suppressing so much rage because of the experiences that she's been a victim of. So I think for us it was about finding the musical world that best told the story of the character who was singing. And the men in the show, you know,

that's where a lot of the comedy comes from. And that is really deliberate because, you know, a lot of the things that they said, the Malius Malificarum in the 1400s was ridiculous. And I think for us it was empowering to be able to make these men as ridiculous as the things that they said were. It just felt like the only choice, you know. And that's where, you know, we want to find some light and shade in the show. And it felt like that was a really empowering decision for us.

Yeah, I mean, one minute you're crying, the next minute you're laughing. The friend who I took was whooping at one point. You know, it was every emotion. Diana, I've got to talk to you about your. kind of career path. It's quite unusual, I would say. Okay. You start, many people will know you from the X Factor, won't they? Yes. I cannot believe this, that you did that when you were just 16. I know. When X Factor was really at its height. Yeah. Pop career. You've, you've had various

roles in musical theater. You played Gwyneth Paltrow in I Wish You Well, a musical about the skiing incident trial. Yes. Yes. So, so what is it for you that really drives you? Is it theatre? Is it music? Like how how do you see your career going? I get asked this a lot. I mean, I just love it all. I think that there's there is room to do it all and I sort of like surprising people

and I, you know, I love music. I love being a little pop star. I'll always love my LGBTQIA plus community. I love doing my gigs and for them and I love but I love really getting my teeth into an acting role and doing theatre is magical. It's live. It's

beautiful. It's um, and doing really fresh new plays and new musicals. I love that and I, you know, I did a bit, I've done a bit of telly this year, you know, throughout. And I really enjoyed doing that as well. And yeah, I like doing it all. And I feel that if I can, I'm just going to keep doing that, really. So I feel very lucky and very blessed that I get to do that.

I read a very random fact that I want to check out with you. Oh, go on. Is it true that when you were playing Gwyneth Poutrey, kept one of her special candles, the one that was called This Smells Like My Vagina. Yes, he did. by the side of the stage to sniff before you went on? I did. Well, I had it in my dressing room, and I was like, Goonnie P, how do I channel you?

So I would have it. I would light it. I would have a real sort of like inhale, and I would like, I'm an icon. I want to the power drone. I'm a moment. And then I would go on. And I was like, there we go. I've got my girl.

Any rituals like that for Coven? Oh, God. I just basically degrade the women backstage and, uh, huh, huh. Yeah. I, um, you embody the character. It is, yeah, I sort of like walk up and down like, like a bit of a lad. It's a very different ritual. Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, if you're not busy enough doing all that, you've just released a new single as well, pretty boys. So what's kind of motivated you to come back to that? I just, you know, I always want to create all the time. I wrote this song about two years ago and, yeah, and I was feeling really inspired at the time. And like I said, there's always a little pop star in me. And I was sat on it for a couple of years. I thought I've just got to get it out there. there's no point wasting time on it and it yeah i really i'm proud of it it's sexy it's it's

fun and um yeah and i it's getting a good response and you know i'm doing all these gigs for my lgbcc community i wanted to give them some fresh material they're always having to go at me i mean like when's the next stuff i was like there you go then that'll shut you up for a bit yeah well i mean you're doing really interesting stuff who knows what's next for diana because thank you so much for coming in to both of you um to rachel as well Well, sorry, Rebecca, called you Rachel. I'm so sorry about that, Rebecca, and to Diana, and Coven runs at London's Kiln Theatre. That's until January the 17th at the moment, but who knows? Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you. Now, I've been asking for your comments today, and actually lots of you have been getting in touch about pelvic girdle pain that we were talking about at the start of the programme. This one here says, I had pelvic girdle pain during the second and third trimester. The GP had no clue, this person said, and referred me to physio for sciatica. The first appointment I could get was after my due date. And then this one here says I was on crutches from 19 weeks pregnant with pelvic girdle pain with my second. It was a complete shock after a really easy first pregnancy. I had a very high-energy little boy to look after.

I can't thank enough the NHS physiotherapist who saw me every 7 to 10 days and manually manipulated my hips and pelvis back into alignment. She says, I didn't have it again with my subsequent pregnancy, and I always wondered why it impacted the only girl I carried. We joke regularly about how my daughter nearly broke me, but she's 10 years old now, and I've completely forgiven her. Thanks so much for all your comments. Now, there is a brand new podcast launching today, CBB's Parenting Download. It unpacks topical parenting stories, hears real-life experiences, and also has some expert advice for all those parenting dilemmas. Well, it kicks off today to coincide with children in need

and explores one of this year's themes of how to help children navigate grief and loss. Parenting Download is presented by Radio One host, author and new mum, Katie Thistleton, Anna Ward-winning rapper and Dad of Two Governor Bee. And I'm delighted to say they both join me now. Thanks so much for coming on Woman's Hour. Katie, can I start with you? What can people expect them from this podcast? Well, obviously there are a million podcasts out there.

I listen to many of them. There are so many parenting podcasts as well, and I'm learning that's because when you're a parent, you are just desperate to hear other people's experiences and feel validated. My son is eight months old now, and since having him, the overwhelming experience I've had,

other than no sleep, is feeling completely bamboozled by all the information out there, scrolling through social media, listening to podcasts, looking at news headlines, Googling advice and feeling like there's so much conflicting information. I've never known a world where one person will say one thing

and another will say another and you just feel like, am I doing it right? Am I doing it wrong? So this podcast aims to look at all of those headlines, whatever's trending, what's been spoken about that week, perhaps a particular celebrity has been talking about something. Also, what's been going on in myself and Gov's parenting lives and just unpacking it and getting some experts on

and looking at it and hopefully validating parents a little bit. because that's what I felt like I really needed at this time. It's somewhere to go where you know you're getting the right information. There's no scaremonger in, and you can hopefully feel a little bit better about yourself. Yeah, and that bit of reassurance, I guess, isn't it? And Gov, you've got a boy and a girl, an almost three-year-old, I believe, and a six-year-old. So have you had a good parenting week so far this week? This week has been quite interesting.

My daughter, my nearly three-year-old, is refusing to brush her teeth. and she's very persistent but what I've realised right because I'm six foot two and they're obviously half my height or thereabouts and a lot of their childhood has been speaking to me

while I'm up here so I've been like getting low quite a bit and crouching down and I find that if I crouch down on my knees and I have a little conversation with her like Hallie you're going to brush your teeth today she might still say no but she's a bit nicer about it

so yeah I think body language and improving that has been my week getting low. And my son's playing football. He had his first football tournament that I went to as part of a school trip. And I thought I was quite laid back as a parent, but five minutes in, I was screaming down the sidelines. You're one of them.

I'm one of them. Probably get banned soon. But this podcast is going to help me improve my behaviour, I'm sure. That is it. The teeth brushing thing is real, isn't it? I've got three and a half-year-old, and yeah, that is a challenge. So you've got an eight-month-old.

baby boy then Katie it's that and you're you know and you're busy you're working you know so that is tough yeah I mean nothing could have prepared me I think for how it's tough it is like I feel like I had him and all of a sudden I was like wow I know exactly what people are talking about now I always thought parents were just winging a bit and I thought how hard can it be how hard could it be and it is relentless isn't it having a somebody just depend on you at all times I think the thing I miss the most is, it's like what Gen Z called Rotting now, where you just spend a day where you just lie on the sofa and you watch TV all day. You just don't get to do that anymore, do you? But what's great is that, you know, my work is so fun. So that the balance

of work and having him is actually really, really lovely. And I suppose doing this podcast feels a little bit like at least I'm swatting up. I'm doing sort of parenting lessons when I'm away from him. And you're looking, Gov, you're looking at tips for parenting what you were talking about and maybe demystifying that. There's loads of info out there, isn't there? So kind of demystifying that. What do you think have been the best tips that you've got so far? So on our first episode, we spoke to Tom Fletcher, a child psychologist called Amanda Orange.

And they do a lot of work around grief. Tom just released a book with children in need called Pudsey and the Thread of Hope. And my dad passed away in 2017, but my son was born in 2019. So they didn't get to meet and it never really felt right. And so me and Emma, who I co-parent with, we wrote a book so that we could keep my dad's legacy alive. And what I learned from Amanda in particular during our interview on the episode was a few tips on the right language to use when you talk to young children about some of these heavy topics like grief and loss. And one practical thing is I used to always kind of ask my son questions just before bed because we're kind of. kind of like winding down he's a bit more talkative because he doesn't want to go

bed so he's trying to delay the bed time and Amanda was like actually it's not the best to always bring up like these deep heavy conversations um that are quite layered before bedtime and I was like oh that that makes sense that's probably why he's up at 10 p.m still because I've left him with quite a lot to think about um so a little practical tips like that really help and what I love is obviously as a parent you can feel like you're failing quite a lot and it can feel like quite a judgmental space and the tone that we've set for the podcast is actually we're all in this together we're all figuring out and hopefully these tips can be be helpful and your book that you mentioned there is called where granddad lives was that important to you to to you know maybe help other

people who who are experiencing the same thing yeah I think so I mean I wanted my kids to not just talk about their granddad my dad in the past tense and know that he was here and now he's gone but I wanted them to know a bit of his character, what he was like, the kind of lineage that they come from, and also just normalise the conversation, because I think what we've learned in this first episode in particular is that a lot of these topics are quite awkward and heavy for parents, but actually kids are quite resilient, and if you offer the space and a safe environment for them to have these conversations, then it can end quite well and it can be quite a nice thing. If you allow me, I'll just share a personal anecdote that's just come to mind that my son had to do a family tree for, nursery and my dad died before he was born and so we put my dad on there and he asked about

pappy and i said to him he died and i wonder that's you know i i said that very honestly because i thought that was the best way to do it but when your children ask questions is that do you do you try to ask as answer as honestly as he can or do you use maybe what my mom would have said which is oh they've they've gone to you know a place in the sky yeah i used to say place in the sky actually and stuff like that because you know i think heaven is quite a nice visual but kate you related to this quite a lot when amanda was talking about not leaving an open open ended didn't you yeah so so she actually said that it is quite good to use the sort of language that you use to say that they've died to to kind of not leave it open because otherwise kids are

quite literal and they can get a little bit confused and think oh right is that person coming back then if they've gone to sleep are they going to wake up you know that sort of thing so that that was something I felt like I really learned from Amanda as well. And I feel like equipped now with that knowledge for, sadly, when that day does come and I have to speak to Rubin about loss and grief, you know. And as you said, you spoke on the podcast to McFly Frumman, Tom Fletcher, who's written a book for children in need. Let's have a listen to what he said.

The more honest and open we can be, not only the easier the conversation is, but I think just the easier they can absorb those more challenging things, we're all going to deal with these difficult experiences in our lives and the more we can be open and talk about it with our kids and show it through whether it's books or through animation make sure that we're including these heavier subjects as well as much as it's fun to write about bears or dinosaurs or whatever it is that I'm working on that's the fun element of it

but there's I like to always try and feel like there's some real substance and a message underneath all of that That's Tom Flesher there and you can hear more from him on the podcast. Katie, is it interesting you're a trained counsellor, aren't you? Has that helped with your parenting, do you think? Too soon to say, I think. I think it makes me overthink a little bit. I messaged to one of my old colleagues this week and said,

have you got that paper on the first 1,000 years of life? Because I was really overthinking, you know, everything I'm saying to him already and everything I'm doing. And he was a bit like, you know, if you're loving that eight-month-old baby, you're doing everything right. you know, you don't have to overthink it yet. But, you know, the one thing I came away with in my mind when I qualified as a counsellor, the overriding realisation I had was that there's no such thing as a perfect parent

because I would sit there with clients in therapy with me. And more often than not, we'd go back to childhood. And people had had very different experiences. People had had very traumatic upbringings. But other people hadn't had, other people had what we would call quite a normal upbringing. But still there were little things that happened. that were traumas and it made me realize that it's not just parents bringing up that child it's everyone around them and it can even be something you've seen in a film something you've heard in

the playground that actually shakes something that you one day talk to your counsellor about so it made me realise there's no such thing as a as a perfect parent which I think is quite comforting to remember you can only do your best definitely and gov for you what what has been the most challenging aspects do you think of of being a parent so far do you know the answer to that question is actually why I decided to get involved with this podcast. So I see my kids there with me three or four times a week depending on the schedule of our co-parenting. And that means that, you know, I'm not just dipping in for weekends. I'm seeing tantrums. I'm doing drop-offs, packed lunches. And I find that a lot of this conversation is moms talking to moms, which I think

is incredible. But I wanted dads to be able to say, actually, I'm a dad, I'm present, I'm here. I'm not always getting it right as well. But let's talk about it. And I think the most challenging part is feeling like I haven't got a community. And hopefully that's something that I can build through this podcast and going forward. That's so true, isn't it? You know, there are an awful lot of kind of mum's forums and things. It sounds like a fascinating listen. It's out today, isn't it?

You can hear the first episode of the CBB's Parenting Download. It's a bit later today, actually. And after that, it will drop weekly on a Saturday. on BBC Sounds or of course wherever you get your podcast. You can watch it on IPlayer too. Tom Fletcher's book that we mentioned, Pudsey and The Thread of Hope is out now and will be animated for BBC One

and IPlayer in December. Katie and Governor, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to speak to you today. Thanks very much for coming on. Cheers. Thank you so much. It's been lovely. Just before we go, we were mentioning those people who have really changed your life.

Maybe they said something that changed the course of what you were planning to do. this one here says my inspirational teacher is my inspirational teacher is my school librarian Maxine the school's permanently closed now but we're still in regular contact she's continued to be my mentor my friend my biggest inspiration my biggest supporter she truly made the school library my sanctuary thanks so much for all your comments I'm sorry I couldn't read them all out just to mention on weekend women's out tomorrow the women's super league have unveiled design guidelines for women's football stadiums in England we hear what those plans are

and we'll also be hearing from historian Alex Lodgston. Thank you very much for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Indyraxon, and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled, Witch,

I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting-turning, rabbit warren of a world, full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words and indelible marks on the world. Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why. On Witch with me, Indiarakison.

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