Woman's Hour - Women rowers in Venice; Former Afghan women's minister; Julia Peyton-Jones; Non-disclosure agreements

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

It's the first year in which women and men are awarded equal prize money in Venice's annual rowing race, the Regata Storica. Emma speaks to lead campaigner and professional rower, Elena Almansi. This week the Taliban announced that all women must wear hijab and will be segregated in universities. Emma is joined by the former Minister for Women's Affairs, Hasina Safi, who is now with her family in a hotel in the UK having escaped under cover in the final days of the evacuation. Emma also speaks to Carolyn Webster, who stood as a parliamentary candidate for the Conservative Party in the last general election and is now an independent councillor in Bridgend in Wales. She has been organising collections for Afghans stuck in British hotels after quarantined and is concerned about their conditions.For 25 years Julia Peyton-Jones was director at the Serpentine Gallery in London. Under her tenure the number of visitors to the gallery in an old tea pavilion in Hyde Park rose from 200,000 to more than one million. Announcing her departure in 2016, she said she wanted to spend more time painting. 'I will be starting all over again,' she said at the time. 'I am 64. My goal is to live to 100 and remain in really good shape.' Less than a year later, she became a mother, returning from California with a baby daughter. The press covered the story extensively but Julia chose not to give any interviews. Now she has brought out a book called Pia's World consisting of drawings she did every night in 2020, of her and her daughter's day. In this first broadcast interview, Julia joins Emma in the studio. A campaign to outlaw the misuse of NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, in jurisdictions around the world is launched today. Campaigners say too many of these agreements enable powerful individuals and businesses to cover up sexual harassment, racism and other wrong doing. Joining Emma are the two women fronting the campaign - Zelda Perkins, the first woman to break an NDA with Harvey Weinstein, and Canadian law professor and author Dr Julie MacFarlane. We also hear from Emma Bartlett, employment law specialist at C M Murray.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. One of my guests today had the art world at her feet as director of the Serpentine Gallery and celebrities hoping she would invite them to what became one of London's society parties of the year. But Julia Peyton-Jones decided to leave it all behind to have more time to paint and to have a child. She was 64. All hell broke loose in the papers with headlines so judgmental and vitriolic she was apparently advised by a PR expert to leave the country. I'll be talking to her shortly about

her decision to be an older mother in her first broadcast interview. But what have you done at an age that people don't think you should have done? Tell us how you perhaps smashed the age stereotypes. What did you do at the age people didn't expect you to do something? Perhaps it was having a child, older or younger, gaining a qualification, getting married, a particular trip or adventure, falling in love, quitting your job. What did you do at an age that no one expected you to? And honestly, how did it turn out? Could be the best thing ever or might not be. 84844, do text me on that number and let me know.

On social media, I'm at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email me through our website to share your experience and what you did. I'll be awaiting those messages shortly. Also on today's programme, a wonderful week for women's sport has continued in Venice, where the female rowers in the annual rowing competition have been awarded equal prize money to the men for the very first time. A row will be joining me. And two women wage war on non-disclosure agreements, otherwise known as NDAs for short, one of them having signed one with Harvey Weinstein. All to come. But first, in a further rollback of women's rights in Afghanistan,

this week the Taliban have announced that all women must wear hijab and will be segregated in universities. This follows no women representatives in Afghanistan's cabinet. The announcement came after a demonstration by women supportive of the Taliban at a Kabul university on Sunday. You may have seen images of this. It was very striking. Hundreds of women, many wearing black knickers and carrying Taliban flags, listened to speeches that praised the regime. However, many other Afghan women are fighting back online with a social media campaign called Do Not Touch My Clothes,

where they're sharing pictures of colourful traditional dress. I'm now joined by the former Minister for Women's Affairs, Hasina Safi, who's now with her family in a hotel in the UK, having escaped undercover in the final days of the evacuation. Hasina, good morning. Oh, we're just going to make sure we can, if you could unmute your computer there. Thank you so much, Hasina. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for the opportunity. Well, thank you for joining us after such an escape. I just wanted to start by asking before we hear the details of that escape, was there any chance of you staying in the country? I really tried to stay and be patient because I came out of Kabul after 10 days of the government collapse and Taliban.

But it was not possible because there was a lot of horror. There was a lot of uncertainty. There was a lot of uncertainty. There was a lot of insecurity. So that was why I decided to leave. And I'm really thankful for all my international friends, UK government, British friends, women, for the solidarity, coordination and support that today I am talking to you all. How did you leave? What was that like for you and your family? It was, to be honest, it was very, very, very difficult because I had been a refugee when I

was five years old. So I never thought that I would refuge again. I came back to my country after 25 years with my two daughters. And the reason that I stayed back for 10 years after the collapse of the government was that I thought there would be an opportunity that I would stay. But I saw that day by day it was getting uncertain, unsecure and no guarantees. So it was one of the most difficult decisions that I had to take to be a refugee again. I can't even imagine. And the actual getting out, was that difficult or how was that for you? Because we saw scenes with the Taliban surrounding the airport. after 15th August till 25th August that I left from my international friends. Even the horror rate was that high that even I could not go down the block. So when we decided it was around four or three in the afternoon

and we left home in the evening when it was dark. I was fully covered and we had to enter the airport through the Abbey Gate. It was so horrifying. There were fire guns, they were lashing people. So we really, because two of my family members even were lashed, so we decided not to leave. But then through the coordination of other friends who had been at the same situation, they encouraged and they said there is another way from where we can go. And then there was a canal through which we passed. That was the canal that the day we passed, the day after that, it was that horrific attack

where 170 people lost their lives. So it was one of the horrifying, the most horrifying nightmare I had observed, I had seen in my 46 years of life. I'm so sorry. How are you, how have you been processing that? How are you, are you even thinking about that at the moment? Well, I cannot stop thinking about it because there are many, many, many, many there back home and at the first every night I would be dreaming for four or five times whenever I would close my eyes so I never wanted to sleep I just wanted to make myself busy with writing or reading or something because it is even something which I cannot imagine. Like it was when you see on the top of your head like guns, fire,

and you really don't know what will happen after 10 seconds. So it's really horrifying, uncertainty and insecurity. And you also said that a couple of your family members were lashed. What does that mean? Because when people were standing outside the gate, so it was a group of people and then they were lashing, Taliban were lashing them too. So they were horrifying them. That is why when I saw that they were lashed twice, then I decided that it doesn't matter even if we die we will have to leave that place so

there were many people it like it's very difficult when you say it but it's it's horrific when you are in that situation and when you feel it because on the top of your head at the bottom of your feet you see gun you see fire so it's very very difficult. Why did you come to the UK? Was that a particular decision or was that where you could get to? As I said that most of the international partners attempted me from day one and I did not decide to leave. I had been in communication with my British friends because we had been working from many years before me being the minister. We were working on Security Council Resolution 1325. And UK had, like other international partners, while they were developing NAB 1325. They had put apart for the Afghan women in Afghanistan women. So basically, to be honest, the coordination of that brought me here because

my British friends were very much in contact with me. Each second, each hour, they would message me, how are you? Are you safe, why are you not planning to leave, what is the situation, so that is the reason and the other thing is based on the work experience that I had with my partners here, the understanding, so that is why I decided to come here. How do you feel about trying to build a life here in Britain? Well for the first to be honest at the first week like it was just I wanted to make myself accept that I was alive I could breathe I could. I was trying to collect myself back. And presently, I have overcome it with the loneliness, with the cries, with the griefs that I had, with the yellings that I had inside my room, I tried to collect and definitely life has been a challenge for women around the world, but specifically for Afghan women and those women who had been in conflict like us.

No one is going to plan for us. So it is us who have to plan for ourselves and it is us who have to stand back and fight for what we are aiming as women, as Afghan women, to plan for the future. And how, I was going to say, I mean, perhaps that question is, you know, I recognise it's far too early for you at this stage as you get to grips with your reality at the moment.

But as the former women's minister, how do you feel about the the women and girls and their lives uh those who are who are still there i mean some of whom obviously want very much to be there but not under necessarily the rule that they've got i'm in contact with all of them first of all uh there is a big big threat for most of them who have been very vocal and who have been in public. Protection-wise, they are insecure. And the second thing is definitely there is a big gap by abolishing the women ministry,

because it had been an address, not only that, but a connection with the NGOs. As a women activist, I have worked from grassroots to the cabinet member. It will be a very, very big gap by abolishing the women ministry, the address of women. There is a lot of insecurity, there is a lot of uncertainty, and there is a lot of hopelessness within the women at this present situation. When you hear the latest around all women must wear hijab, will be segregated in universities, that there are no women around that cabinet table that you sat at as the Minister for Women. How does that make you feel? Very disappointing, very unrealistic,

and very challenging for those who still want to work, because hijab has a specific definition for everyone. Hijab in the relation with God is your personal relation. It's up to you how you connect, how you define, how you act. So that is why the hijab which we are observing in the last three days has never been a part of Afghanistan Afghan women culture. So this is a total unacceptable agenda or issue for the women of Afghanistan. I have been a minister, but before that I have traveled to every district and province and villages of Afghanistan. You will see women wearing big chadars the way I am wearing now, but in the villages

no one wears hijab. No one wears even burqas. They are very open with each other. They work in the agriculture. They have nurseries. They participate. They contribute. So this is a total disappointment. This is a total concrete obstacle for those women who still take the courage to move forward. I would love to welcome you back to Women's Hour, perhaps in the coming days and weeks, to talk more about what you're hearing from the women

that you are in contact with and how they are doing. And I wish you all the best with what I imagine is quite a complicated and painful journey to relocate again, as you have done before, and get to grips here. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. I hope that we can welcome you back. Hasina Safi, though, who was the former Minister

for Women's Affairs until very recently, when she decided and felt she was forced to flee Afghanistan. Well, the situation facing some refugees currently being housed in temporary accommodation around the UK and, of course, also in hotels has been highlighted today by former Conservative Carolyn Webster. She stood as a parliamentary candidate

for the Conservative Party in the last election, but now an independent councillor in Bridgend in Wales. And she's been organising collections for Afghans stuck in British hotels after quarantine. And I know, Carolyn, you're concerned about their conditions. I am, yes. Thank you very much for inviting me on today. The people that I'm in touch with are still in quarantine hotels. They all are so grateful to everyone in the UK government.

Whenever I speak to them, it's a full five-minute thank you to every department. And that's so important, I think, for British people to hear before we go on. But they know why they were put in quarantine and they support those reasons for them being in quarantine because just like any other British person coming back into the country from a red country they have to quarantine too the problems are surrounding

the people who remain in quarantine long after quarantine has finished because we don't know why why are they still stuck in the quarantine hotels um this is causing an issue because people want to get out and become part of the British society for a start and also their mental well-being is not being considered they can't take their children out to play in a park you know you've got three-year-olds four-year-olds five-year-olds stuck in a hotel room for coming up to three weeks now and have you got have you got any understanding of as to why i mean we've got a statement from uh the government saying individuals who arrive in the uk from afghanistan enter quarantine to minimize the risk of new variants as you were just saying we're urgently working to ensure families

are moved to more appropriate accommodation as soon as possible our welfare and medical teams continue to support hotels and families are provided with the essential items they need. From that statement, I don't want to overstretch my understanding of government statements here, it sounds like they just haven't got anywhere to put refugees at the moment. Is that it? That may be the case, but nobody has told the people still in the quarantine hotels. So they're left in this limbo, these people that you're talking to? Yes, absolutely. And what are you calling for then, having seen this, or what do you hope can be done?

Just communication. I understand if there's no spaces for people to go into other hotels, into the bridging accommodation, then tell people, and not just telling people in English, but telling people in Dari, in Pashto, it's not just English speakers who are in the hotels so they've come from a very traumatic experience. Hasina's story was very very familiar to me from the people that I spoke to people who tried to get into the airport during the evacuation were beaten back didn't get going but these are people who actually came through they came through again, again, Hasina called it the canal.

It was my understanding that it was an open sewer, actually. It was very dirty and people didn't have any other clothing to change into after days on the road, almost six days by the time people came, left to go into the airport and then were processed and then put into quarantine hotels. There's people still in their clothes that they've travelled in because nothing has been provided. People haven't been able to access help because they've been in quarantine. It's a very powerful message and insight that you're providing. Carolyn Webster, thank you very much for your time and for what you've, and sharing for

what you've been seeing. I read you that government statement. Of course, if we have more updates on that, we will get it to you. But for 25 years, my next guest was director at the Serpentine Gallery in London. Under her tenure, the number of visitors to the art gallery in Hyde Park rose from 200,000 to more than a million. Julia Payton-Jones stepped down in 2016 and announcing her departure, she said she wanted to spend more time painting. I'll be starting over, she said at the time. I'm 64. My goal is to live to 100 and remain in really good shape. And less than a year later, she became a mother, returning from California with a baby daughter.

The press had a field day, but Julia chose not to give any interviews. And I'm told she didn't read most of it. Now she's written a book called Pia's World, consisting of drawings she did every night in 2020 of her and her small daughter's day. Julia, good morning. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. And I have to say, I've asked our listeners for some of the things they've done at the wrong age, per se. And we're getting a huge variety of messages coming in from people quitting jobs, starting over, doing things they shouldn't have done, even getting married. Ridiculously young in one case, as far as her family was concerned. But I thought I'd start by, why have you done the book?

Well, I studied as an artist. I went to the Royal College of Art. I was very lucky I got scholarships while I was a student. And for many years, I practised as an artist, as well as doing all sorts of other jobs. And it came to the moment that I was working 12 hours a day, seven days a week. And I thought, this is really ridiculous. And I felt I wasn't good enough as an artist to warrant that kind of commitment in terms of a life well lived. And so I started to be curating at the Hayward Gallery and then in 91 went to the Serpentine Gallery. But all the while I had at the back of my mind this sort of this idea that it was unfinished business in terms of my artist career. And so I wanted to set up a kind of system, so to speak, a rule of the game that meant that I could go into the studio every day. And there are artists that I admire hugely who, after their working day, earning money, then go into the studio to work when they get home.

So after I put my daughter to bed, had supper, I then went into the studio and thought that I would draw what had happened in the day. And my experience is that if you want to remember something, rather than taking it one, two, three, you know, every hour, the things that float to the top of your mind are really the things that are important. So I chose to remember 12 things that happened during the day. And I had 12 windows on a piece of paper that I drew. Sort of like an advent calendar to describe. Yes, exactly. And then in these 12 windows, I did drawings of what I'd remembered. And it ranged from Pia waking up in the middle of the night to changing her nappies to me perhaps being not so well, being ill, to going to work on the tube. So really ordinary things, making the bed, ironing, gardening. Only because this was a lockdown and you saying not very well, did you get COVID?

Was that part of it? No, no, no, no, no. This was pre-COVID times because it started on January the 1st, 2020. So the book covers the lead up to COVID, and then the day when we were all told that we were going to go into lockdown. And I remember, I mean, this was not obviously my intention. None of us knew we were going to have to deal with the absolutely enormity of what happened in that year. But because I'd created this model of how to be in the studio, of this daily practice of drawing,

then I documented it in the book. And, you know, it covers this extraordinary year. Indeed, and you see masks start appearing in your little drawings here, which are, you know, very powerful. And it is, it's a different way of remembering a year for certain. And I had the joy of looking through it. You didn't engage with any of the media at the time I mentioned, but there was a huge reaction. I'll tell you that I remember it to the news that you at the age of 64, were becoming a mother. And now by doing this book, I suppose you are out there talking about this. Did you always know you were going to do that when you stepped down from the serpentine? What the book?

No, becoming a mum. Yes, the book? No, Becoming a Mum. Yes, I did. But they were two separate things. I'd been at The Serpentine for 25 years. And I wanted, I couldn't, to leave a job that I loved passionately, I'd had the best time. It was hugely demanding, hugely interesting, hugely stimulating. I worked with wonderful people. And you'd been hugely successful at it.

Well, that's very kind of you to say so um but I I couldn't you know to leave was I always knew was going to be a wrench and 25 years seemed you know enough already and I didn't want to overstay my welcome either um so and I and importantly because I think life is very long, we have the Queen as the most incredible role model for all of us women. She's still working today. Amazing. And I wanted to have another life after the Serpentine. So I knew that I had to bite that bullet and deal with the transition and everything that meant. And then have another life. So that was I'd always felt that 25 years was my goal. And then quite separately,

I had taken the decision to be a mother. And so the two were connected only in terms of timing, but not in any other way, if I can put it like that. You've said in a newspaper interview, biologically, it wasn't possible. Quote, that train had long left the station, as you put it. So how did you become a mother? You know, it's amazing. People are so fascinated about how I became a mother.

And the way I look at it, I don't answer the question as I'm sure you're aware. And I continue not to answer the question, partly because I feel my role as Pia's mother is to protect her in whatever way I can. And I don't want her to be reading about something which is very private when she's old enough to read, when she's a teenager, when she may not thank me. I'm sure she wouldn't thank me for revealing such private things. So I've taken that decision and I've reflected on whether it's the right decision and I continue to think it is. So I don't answer that question. But people will be thinking it.

So to ask it, I suppose, and to hear why you don't answer it is also important. Were you concerned about judgment, not necessarily from the press per se or the public like that, but from people in your life as well, because it isn't the norm. Of course, and I was judged. And I was asked some very tough and uncomfortable questions, questions that I'd already asked myself. And I felt that

they were responsible questions to be asked. Such as what would happen perhaps when she's older and you're much older. Yes, of course. I mean, the approach that I've taken, and every mother takes a different approach to how they bring up their children, is that I'm very lucky that I have friends who are teenagers, you know, who are starting art college or university. My nephews and nieces, for example, have five sisters. Piers' father has a very large family. She sees her grandmother twice a week. Well, it used to be twice a week.

It's now once a week consistently. Her networks are very, very broad. She has an enormous number of godparents, which I was teased about mercilessly how many godparents are we talking well brace yourself i am 37 wow okay you've you're going with the whole village it takes to raise yes and and whilst i was teased mercilessly and i thought well okay it's rather unusual um actually it's the best decision ever because, you know, we're always going to see a godparent, you know. And Pia, my intention was, as she is a single child, was that she would be surrounded by people who love her, who are interested in her, who care what she's doing, you know, who want to see photographs of her first day at school.

I'm presuming some of them can also give her some quite decent art to go on the walls of her bedroom with your network. She gets an awful lot of books from two of her godparents, one being Hans Ulrich Obrist, who I worked with for 10 years at the Serpentine, and another, Alice Rawson. And so they compete. But I certainly have these amazing books,

and I have the great pleasure of reading. But the point, my godparents, you know, I think I had possibly six, you know, four disappeared into the ether and I never saw them again. One was sort of semi-connected and one was really good. And I think that's my experience of godmothers. And of course, out of the 37, half have disappeared. You know, they may come back later. But there are a group, and they are a group, more than a handful, who absolutely want to know what's happening. You know, who get really cross with me if I don't send pictures regularly. And do you worry, has that alleviated the worry?

Or do you still worry about some of those extra complications that may come? Because you're 69, I believe, and Pia is four, is that right? Four and a half. Four and a half. Do you still have that concern in the back of your mind? Of course. And because of my age, I probably have it rather more than other women do. But I have tried my best and will continue to do everything I can to make sure that she is protected and cared for in the widest possible sense. And my health and energy, I think,

which is such an important part of getting older, is to keep the energy as much as you possibly can. And my engagement with life is something that I take very seriously for her, but also for me, because I want to be still working in my 90s. I worked with Oscar Niemeyer, who, when we did the pavilion with him on the lawn of the Serpentine, he was 94. And I said to everybody, look, for goodness sake, be quick. We must really focus. You know, he's 94. And he lived to 103.

So in my mind, I've always had role models who've lived to a great age as active, professional, engaged people. And it's something I've always wanted for myself. And of course, it's a gift that I can't give myself, but I shall do everything I can to make sure that I am as healthy as I can be. The pavilion for which you are, you are so famous in another sense. But I'm just absolutely fascinated by this, because I remember the debate around this, even if you didn't read the press, I read quite a bit of it. And some were arguing what you had done at the age of 64, which we should point out, not possible for a lot of people. However you did it, it's something that is, I imagine,

quite complicated to organise, to make sure everything's in place that should be. Some people argued it's the ultimate feminist statement, you know, with Mick Jagger, for instance, having his eighth child at 73 and nobody necessarily making the same sorts of judgments that perhaps you had to face. Do you think it is a feminist statement? I did it for personal reasons and I would certainly not claim, I wouldn't want to make claims about what I did.

I feel it's not for me to do that. People judge each other all the time. wouldn't want to make claims about what I did. I feel it's not for me to do that. If people want, people, people judge each other all the time. I may have provided a cause for more judgment than others, but it's for other people to, to say things like that. I do firmly believe, I mean I come from I have five sisters my my family is all women so I'm you know I want to inhabit and engage with the talents that I've been given um in a way that feels appropriate to me do you think there is an evening out though I'm also just of the playing field in that respect because you had this great career and then a baby afterwards. And I just wonder if we're also entering into a new era of that, because only last week we were told that eggs and sperm can be frozen until the age of 55, a story I'm sure you saw.

Do you think we are entering a new era of equality in that way, if it could be termed like that i think that you know it's still very early days for women to inhabit a a world that men have had all to themselves for not decades but centuries and um i think women or i speak for, are learning still about how to do that. You know, there are some things that I still think, my goodness, really? Okay. So it's a learning process for me. And I think what's tremendously exciting, as a woman, I bring a different viewpoint to different sense of engagement, different sensibility to discussions, to arguments, to a perspective on the world. And I think what's so fascinating now is that there are a number of views.

There is no one view. There's not one way of doing things. It used to be the case, but it isn't anymore. I mean, the change in the last five years is phenomenal, and I think it will continue to change. Social media plays a considerable part in that, both good and bad. But women have an enormously important role. And increasingly, it was always important.

It's always been central to life. But increasingly, it's being recognized, embraced, celebrated. And women, you know, the whole thing about women not, you know, reaching the glass ceiling, that is happening more and more, but in interesting ways, not just the thing of you're a man, I'm a woman, I'm going to beat you at your own game. That's not very, to me, that's not very interesting

and also not necessary. I mean, we hope to be, of course, at the vanguard of that changing discussion here at Women's Hour, and we're very happy you've come to see us and come to talk to me about that. Thank you for having me. I should say, I think I may have said that incorrectly. Frozen, eggs frozen and sperm frozen for 55 years, not till the age of 55. Patricia's written a very powerful message saying,

I became an older mother at 46 after years of fertility treatment. What surprised me was how many people viewed my decision. Dangerous, detrimental to the baby, weird and selfish. Mother and toddler groups were particularly fraught. A nurse at the hospital where my baby was delivered told me people like me were a drain on the NHS. So that lack of judgment, not necessarily having found its way into Patricia's life. Well, I, you know, we all make decisions that at the time that we make them, we think it's best for us, for our families. And judging people is a very easy thing to do.

The moral high ground is, I think, a very lonely place to be and I do my level best not to occupy that position. I'm enormously sympathetic to women who've had challenges in their life, whether it is to have a baby or any other aspect. You know, we have many challenges. As women, we recognise them. Well, I believe the dog had to go. That was a big challenge, I imagine, when Pia came along.

I can only, for all your listeners who have dogs, I mean, it practically brings tears to my eyes now. It was an incredibly hard thing to do because Charlie she was she was named after my goddaughter Charlotte Charlie was you know with me all the time because of where I worked I could take her to work so you know she she was a sort of um there was a the serpentine team did a newspaper and Charlie was the Times mascot. Charlie was in the centre like the sort of emblem. Yes, it was very, very, very tough.

Well, I'm sure Pia's keeping you very busy. These images seem to show that. And it's a real love letter to her, the way that you've put it, Pia's world. Well, the intention was a very simple one, which was just to do, just to draw what happens in a day. And I aligned it more to Adrian Mole rather than a love letter to Pia, which it may be. It was more to see whether I could engage and capture an ordinary life, a life, you know, sometimes exciting things happen, but mostly it was, you know, got up, went to school, came home, went to bed.

It was kind of like that. But a lot of energy required. I have a three-year-old, so I can vouch for that. Well, respect. Yeah, mutual there. Julia Payton-Jones, perhaps you'll come back and talk to us about art and all that other side of your life at another point. But for now, Pia's World is the book.

Thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you very much for having me. And just like we heard from Julia, the journey to motherhood isn't always straightforward. It can be difficult and painful. And for some, of course, it never happens. But it is also the case that not all women want to have children. And we've had a number of emails recently pointing out

that not having children is a very live conversation among women in their 20s and 30s, pretty much all mentioning concerns about the planet. I do want to hear from you on this. We're planning a discussion in tomorrow's programme why young women are actively choosing to live a child-free life. What are your reasons? Is it fear for the future or something else? What do you make of the idea of freezing your eggs for 55 years, just in case?

And how do the people around you react to the idea of you choosing not to be a parent, choosing the key word? Do let me know. You can email me via the Woman's Hour website at bbcwomanshour or text me on 84844 and I'll come to those messages. And just to say, things that you were meant to be doing or not meant to be doing at certain ages, Pat says, at 78, I went to Glastonbury Festival for the first time with some of my grandchildren and we camped.

It was huge fun. Another one, I qualified as a primary school teacher 16 years ago at the age of 50. It was a completely new career after a year in arts administration and a break to have two children. For me, teaching is hugely rewarding and something I was only mature and patient enough to do in later life. I will come back to more of those if I can very shortly. But let me tell you about something completely different. They ruin lives and enable powerful individuals and businesses to cover up sexual harassment, discrimination and other wrongdoing. That's the view of two women who have launched a campaign today called Can't Buy My Silence to outlaw the misuse of non-disclosure agreements, otherwise known as NDAs. In support, the Conservative MP and former Women's Minister Maria Miller is launching a 10-minute rule bill in Parliament to stop NDAs being used to cover up cases of wrongdoing against employees in the workplace. This on the same day that Prince Andrew's lawyers have tried to use a settlement that his accuser, Virginia Dufresne, signed with Jeffrey Epstein, the prince's friend and

billionaire convicted sex offender who died in prison in 2019, to argue that the case against Prince Andrew is baseless. The two women fronting today's NDA campaign then, can't buy my silence, are Zelda Perkins, the first person to break an NDA with Harvey Weinstein in 2017 after 20 years, and Canadian law professor and author Dr Julie McFarlane. Zelda, if I could come to you first, why this campaign now? Hi Emma, because four years ago I broke my non-disclosure agreement and there was a huge amount of attention around this which was fantastic because it meant that the lawmakers and the law regulators got to see that there was a real problem and this was always my issue it was less Harvey's behavior more the fact that the system enables people like Harvey's behaviour.

You know, we have law to protect us from ourselves. Humans are weak and that's what law is for. And with great sort of optimism, I went to Westminster and there were two select committee inquiries around the issue and recommendations were made to the government. And things really looked like they were going to move forward. And it's actually a very simple no brainer. Lawyers will try and complicate this for you. But there is nothing complicated about the fact that a legal agreement should not be covering crime or abuse. So that's what, however, if I can, just because people don't necessarily know

your story, that's what you're calling for, that's what the change. And you worked with Harvey Weinstein as an assistant and you signed an NDA. And as I understand it, that was after a colleague was attacked and she confronted him and you confronted him, excuse me, is that right? Yes, that's correct. And we never went into the situation knowing what NDAs were or thinking that an NDA would appear. We went because we thought we were going to have justice served and we were going to go to court a criminal case. And it was, in fact, our own lawyers who told us very clearly that we didn't have a choice and that the only recourse we had was signing a damages agreement. We then used that agreement to try and curtail Harvey's behaviour. And in payment for that, we had to not talk about his behaviour.

We were frauded by Weinstein, essentially, because he broke all of his obligations in that agreement. So he broke his side. And did you have, I I mean as I understand it was 125,000 pounds and this is a big part of NDAs money changes hands did you have to give that back? No because we didn't what when I broke my agreement four years ago no no but if if there hadn't been the Me Too movement and I hadn't been protected by public opinion in the break of the truth of what Harvey had been doing,

which, you know, we were not aware of the scale of, I can assure you that I would have been sued for that money back and interest and would have had my life ruined for a second time over. What effect did signing an NDA have on you and what you had seen and then your ability to work? Well, I was very young when it happened. So I had the ability to, I felt, feel, bounce. But the reality is, is that after a year of trying to get work again in the film industry, which I could not do because I couldn't explain to people why I had left Weinstein. And I was essentially blackballed. I also I couldn't speak to anybody.

I wasn't allowed to speak to my friends, my family. I wasn't allowed to speak to a therapist. I wasn't allowed to speak to the HMRC. I wasn't even allowed to speak to the police. So my life became kind of untenable in the UK. So I moved to South America where I stayed for five years, training horses where nobody knew or cared about Harvey Weinstein or the film industry. And I could speak freely. And I think the power of being gagged and not being able to own your trauma and your experience is something that's underestimated and causes continued abuse and trauma for people who've been through something as my colleague did. She in fact tried to take her life twice from having signed this agreement

and she also had to move abroad to a different country. So we essentially not only lost our jobs, our careers, but we lost our friends, our family and our home. And that would be your answer to those who perhaps are listening, thinking, well, you've got quite a large payoff there. And at some point you could have gone to the police. That would be your reply to that around how that kind of affects you in a wider sense. Well, we were left with the impression that we were not allowed to go to the police. Right. So we were given no choice. I think for anyone who's never had this experience, it's important to paint the image of what you're left thinking you can or can't do, and even not going to a counsellor, potentially,

if that's how you are told about this. I mean, each agreement, I suppose. Let me just bring in the Canadian law professor, Dr Julie McFarlane, who's part of this campaign, and I'm also going to welcome Emma Bartlett, who's an employment law specialist at CM Murray. Julie, just to get a sense of how prevalent NDAs are, can you give us a sense of that and how far-reaching they can be? Yes, thanks, Emma. Well, first of all, obviously, it's a paradox. These are

secret settlements, so we don't have really reliable data on that. But what we know from the data that does exist, and certainly what my own research has suggested, is that we're probably looking at about 90 to 95% of all civil settlements today include a non-disclosure agreement. So what happened to Zelda 20 years ago has now become the fashion, the vogue in legal settlements, and it's being included almost as a default. And I just want to make one quick point to add, and to answer your question, as a default. And I just want to make one quick point to add and to answer your question is to add to what Zelda said. I think a lot of people think this is about Hollywood. In actual fact, the people that we hear from all the time and where these agreements are really prevalent are in low paid, insecure employment. You know, I would call it in a North American sense,

this is, you know, a Walmart issue. This is every big corporation where somebody comes forward to make a complaint about harassment or discrimination or bullying. They are being bought off with measly sums of money and being told they can only have that if they also sign a non-disclosure agreement, not to speak about it. Let's bring in Emma at this point and I'll come back to you just a moment, Julie. Emma, do you see a different side of NDAs? Do they still have a purpose to you? Hi, Emma. Yes, I do think NDAs have a purpose. Obviously, in the UK, they're more commonly referred to as confidentiality clauses. But in no way should confidentiality clauses be used in a very broad sense that Zelda has described here today,

where they should prevent somebody from reporting a criminal offence or blowing the whistle or giving evidence. They have to be used proportionately. And if confidentiality agreements were precluded from agreements between employers and employees who want to bring closure to a relationship in the workplace that's come to an end and want to enter into them so that both parties understand that these allegations cannot be referred to again and the individual may receive some compensation um a severance payment if they were to not be lawful at all in the uk then you would result in a situation where the employee isn't able to receive that compensation without having to go to court can i intervene here in a a moment? Can I just come back on that point? Sorry, Emma, will you finish there? Yes, please do. I was just going to say that, you know, the extreme example where there are no ability for an employer to include a confidentiality clause in a settlement agreement on exit, the individual would be forced to go to court in order to get their compensation. And the impact that that would have on an individual should never be underestimated financially, but draining as well.

Julie, what were you going to say? Well, I think this is a really common and respectfully, Emma, bogus argument. I have studied dispute resolution for the last 35 years and I'm not saying anything that isn't well accepted here, cases settle in our civil justice system, whether that's in the United Kingdom or in Canada, at the rate of about 95% before trial. And a lot of people don't realize that. We have almost no trials any longer. The reason that employers and perpetrators want NDAs and want settlement agreements in these cases is because they want to avoid the publicity of a trial. So what they're doing is a very common negotiation strategy. They're saying, you sign

this or else. And by the way, can I just say, what Zelda signed sounds very extreme. It's exactly the same as what's being signed today. I have a whole file full of standard NDA clauses, and they almost always include don't speak to friends, don't speak to family, don't speak to professional therapists and so forth. So this is being put on the table by employers, by perpetrators as I won't settle with you unless you do this. But that's just a bargaining tactic. We know this is all about negotiation. We all know we've all been in situations where someone said, you must do this or else I won't. In reality, those very same people don't want

the publicity of a trial. It's a bluff. And we also know that people who push back and say, I'm not signing, do get their settlements because they actually are trading on the fact that the reputational damage that will come out of a trial is far bigger for the employer or the perpetrator than for themselves. Sorry, Emma, to come back on that, then, is there ever a case for these, having just heard that it's a bluff and most cases don't go to trial? Yes, I do think there is a case for these. I act for individuals as well as employers. And individuals don't want the strain of having to air this in public and to go through a court.

And they do want the ability to retain their reputation and to deal with it in a way that enables them to heal. But I have to say that wide, broad-ranging confidentiality clauses that Julie was just talking about shouldn't occur in the UK. I do agree with you, Julie, that it's a vanilla part of a settlement agreement now for the confidentiality provision to be in there, irrespective of whether or not there has been anything so serious that needs covering up for example to use a phrase but solicitors in the UK have got a professional obligation to step back and just look at that with independence and objectivity to make sure that the confidentiality clause allows the individual to still talk to professional advisors, whether that's lawyers or counsellors in medical treatment or close members of their family as well. Emma, just while you're with us, I mentioned about Prince Andrew's lawyers saying settlement agreement that Virginia Dufresne signed that releases from all or any releases him from any or all potential liability.

Is there anything you can say about that? Yeah, there's two aspects to that. With regards to a confidentiality clause in that agreement, it can't prevent her from reporting a criminal offence or from blowing the whistle. And in the UK, that would be unlawlawful and I assume it's a UK agreement but there would also be a waiver in there a waiver of claims and so there is a there is something for the High Court there to look at to see whether that waiver was freely entered into and it may be going back to your initial points that this powerful employees employers shouldn't be able to get away with this if If she was put

under undue pressure to sign, then perhaps the waiver isn't enforceable, but it's something for the court to decide. I believe it's actually a US agreement, but appreciate your insight from what you can glean about that and recognise your distance from it. Zelda, just a final word from you. We've got a few messages

there. Can I just come back on the closure point, please quickly, Emma? This is not closure for people. We've got a few messages here. Can I just come back on the closure point, please, quickly, Emma? This is not closure for people. This is a prolonging of their trauma. I'll hand it to Zelda next. I was going to say, that's exactly what I was coming to Zelda about, in the sense of it did not sound like that from her perspective, but also Zelda, as we just heard from Julie, this is still happening very much today.

We're getting messages around that. Would you advise somebody to break their NDA today? I can't advise people to break their NDAs. Everybody's NDA is going to be, you know, specific to their case. And I wouldn't want to encourage... Advise might be too strong a word, but you are campaigning to end them in this sense. Absolutely. We're campaigning to end them where they're used inappropriately. And one of the things I'd just like to really point out to what, you know, back to a point Emma

made, is that, you know, when I signed my agreement, I had very good advice. I had a very good lawyer. I had counsel from Doughty Street, leading human rights chambers. But they all allowed me to sign an agreement. They all allowed me to sign an agreement that is actually legally unenforceable, and I was not told that. Now, the regulators and our politicians have not changed anything around this, and this is still happening today.

And Julie and I, and also whistleblowers across, you know, internationally in UK are receiving weekly still NDAs that are essentially perverting the course of justice. And it's a very simple thing to stop. Zelda Perkins, thank you very much to you. I should say Doughty Street Chambers are not here to speak for themselves. Also, thank you to Dr. Julie McFarlane. And we heard from Emma Bartlett there, who's an employment law specialist at CM Murray on some of the uses and why perhaps there should also be cases for them to continue. A spokesperson for the Department of Business, Energy and

Industrial Strategy has said to us, we will not tolerate the use of NDAs as a means to silence and intimidate victims or to prevent them speaking out against workplace malpractice. The government has held a thorough consultation on the misuse of confidentiality clauses between workers and their employers and is committed to implementing legislation to crack down on these practices when parliamentary time allows. Let me bring today's programme to a close with some wonderful news for you, but there's still a bit more of a fight to go. It's been a great week for women's sport and good news from venice where female rowers in the annual rowing competition have been awarded

equal prize money to the men for the very first time the regatta storica or historical regatta is a series of rowing races that takes place annually along venice's grand canal competitors row in the venetian tradition standing up facing forward in various historical boats. A lightweight racing gondola, the Gondolino, for instance. Here to tell us more, Elena Almanzi, a professional rower and one of the lead campaigners for Equal Prize money. Elena, congratulations on the campaign. Hello. Thank you so much. Why do you think it's taken so long so actually the rowing in venice so it's something really really traditional and people are kind of attached to this tradition and they said like

they've always been like this i mean men were the main race main main role, and women were just a side of their races. And so women can't have the same prizes as men because they came after them. But yeah. That was it. That was the rationale. That was the reason. Yeah, basically, yes. And I know that there's more that you want to achieve as well. So there are lots of little things in the years that we are kind of going on with our battle with little, little things. Like there are some in most of the races, actually in all of the races, women have only one category in which they can compete. The men have three different categories,

like A-series, B-series, and the young guys. Women can't compete in the under-19-years-old category. So when you are 14 years old and you want to start the competitions, you have to fight against the experts one because there's no category for you. So more categories and more options i suppose as well i've read for for boats you you yourself as a rower i know you would go out training what is it like with the men uh that you've trained nearby when you're you're out there

training are they welcoming are they supportive so now we are 2021 so it's supposed to be a normal thing, seeing women competing in training, but most of the time, especially when you meet really old people, they just say, hey, what are you doing in the board? You should be at home. You can't do this. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely stuff there.

I mean, do you feel now, though, with this change that's just finally happened, are you a bit more hopeful for the future of women's rowing in Italy, that those attitudes are finally being consigned to the history books? Yeah, we can say so. I can say so. I hope things will be easier for the women equality. But a bad thing is that this prize equality came after a fight between women and the city of Venice. And when this story came, like had a huge visibility in Italy and also abroad, this is in here, like the city council said, oh damn, now we did a bad thing about this, we have to save our face, kind of, and they said, okay, let's make prices equal, but I'm so sad that this wasn't kind of a political decision they didn't want to do, that they had to do it because we fought for it.

Yes, well, saving face is one way to get what you want and get what you need. But I understand the sadness that it wasn't just a decision arrived at because it was the right thing to do. Elena Munsey, a professional rower and someone who's fought for this campaign to get female rowers in the annual rowing competition in Venice to get equal prize money to the men for the first time. Congratulations, and thank you very much for joining us. Just talking about what you've done for the first time at supposedly the wrong age. Loads of messages to this.

Terry says, I did my first public stand-up comedy performance last autumn at the age of 60. I think it went pretty well, judging from the laughter coming from the audience. Thank you so much. And rock climbing as well at the age of 60 has changed somebody's life. Thank you for those messages. Keep them coming in. Thank you for your company. I'll be back tomorrow with you at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, this is Jane Garvey. I'm with my broadcasting friend, Fee Glover. Come in, Fee. Oh, thank you, darling. Thank you. How are you? All right. We do a podcast together called Fortunately. It has been surprisingly successful.

And you'd be, honestly, you'd be really quite, quite choked with emotion to discover that other people have found us. Some of them have quite enjoyed it other people like carping we welcome all comers we don't care who you are where you are what you do or what you think as long as you're prepared to join with us in well what do we do fee we kind of unravel we unburden we unload what do we do we're a self-help group of two that other people quite like to witness and we don't really mind if you laugh with us or at us. You're just welcome aboard a slightly rickety midlife ship, which occasionally has guests who are far more successful than us.

But we try not to let that get in the way. We'd love you to join in. Anna Svi says be a part of it. All you have to do if you want to subscribe is pop along to BBC Sounds and search for Fortunately. It could not be more simple than that. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.