Woman's Hour - Women spies; Kelly Gough; Lisa Keogh; Second chances; Home abortion rules

Episode Date: May 18, 2021

Despite a long and courageous history of female spies, the UK's secret intelligence agencies - MI5, MI6 and GCHQ - are still overwhelmingly dominated by men. The head of GCHQ, Jeremy Fleming, has committed his agency to up its efforts to 'attract talented women' as part of a wider focus on increasing diversity and inclusion. But will more women in the intelligence services make us safer? Not necessarily, says Sally Walker, who was until recently one of the most senior women at GCHQ and the creator of the UK's National Cyber Force. She talks to Emma about her take on diversifying the world of spies, and what's really needed to keep us safe from the constant, often invisible threats to the UK's national security. This week we're allowed to do more and more, as lockdown eases further. Hug with caution, have a meal inside a restaurant, a drink inside a pub and go to the theatre. One theatre that pulled up the curtain last night is the Bush Theatre in London with a play called Harm. It's a monologue, and the actress who carries it is Kelly Gough. She joins Emma to explain how it felt after such a long imposed break from treading the boards.A 29 year old Scottish law student says she’s being investigated by her University because of comments she’s made about men and women. In her University lectures - done online - she's said women are weaker than men, and women are women because they have reproductive organs. Lisa Keogh is in her final few days at Abertay University in Dundee where she's been studying law for four years. She speaks to Emma.The number of children in care in England is at its highest since 1985 and it's rising. A mother's addiction to drugs and alcohol is often one of the issues and domestic violence is a factor in many cases. The reporter and DJ Milly Chowles became a mum at 40 last year, she’s in recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of chances to change. Her fear is that women now aren’t getting those opportunities and the impact on them, their children and society is devastating. Today, the story of a woman who has come full circle - there are references to suicide.Back in March 2020, during the first lockdown, abortion regulations were relaxed in England, Scotland and Wales to allow telemedical early medical abortion care, before ten weeks’ gestation. This has meant that women have been able to continue to access abortion care during the pandemic by having medication posted to them following a telephone consultation with a qualified nurse or midwife. And more than 100,000 women have done so. Before this women had to go to a clinic for a face-to-face consultation before an early abortion. Charities and medical bodies working across sexual and reproductive health have now signed an open letter to Health Secretary Matt Hancock, calling for these temporary measures to be made permanent in England. Lesley Regan, Past President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and signatory to the letter, joins Emma to discuss.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Perhaps you went out last night, ate indoors, even saw a spot of theatre. Well, we'll be talking to someone shortly who trod the boards after a very long break and an opening night like no other. But a question for you today is related to one of our other guests. What have been the consequences, good or bad, of you freely speaking your mind, saying what you truly thought in a situation or in a debate with friends or colleagues? Lisa Keogh is a mature law student who's being investigated by her university because

of complaints from her classmates after she shared some of her opinions about women and men when debating gender, sexuality and the law. Your comments and experiences do not need to pertain to those areas, or they may. But when you decided to speak your mind, what has happened next? Has there been a fallout? Has it perhaps benefited you? Maybe you've got closer to somebody. Of course, it could range from anything, from a friend asking how they look and you making the call, whether to say it straight or perhaps tell a white lie, or how you voted in the recent elections and why.

Are those conversations you run towards or run away from? Text WOMEN'S HOUR on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. Do give your phone number if you're up for potentially coming on air as well and of course we're all about candour

and talking and hearing your views so do please take the opportunity it really always improves our conversation here on the programme. Also on today's show I'll be joined by one of our former top spies Sally Walker. Any questions for her let me know. I'll need all by one of our former top spies, Sally Walker. Any questions for her, let me know.

I'll need all the help I can trying to get some answers out of her. And the last instalment in our series on mothers who are addicts being given second chances with their children. All to come. But we are trying to get back to normal. This week we're allowed to do more and more. Hug with caution. Have a meal inside a restaurant, drink inside a pub and go to the theatre perhaps if that's our bag. Having said that very few

theatres are open yet and most are waiting until step four of getting out of lockdown which at the moment is pencilled in for June 21st. But one theatre that did go ahead last night, pulled up the curtain, is the Bush Theatre in London with a play called Harm. It's a monologue and the actress who carries it is Kelly Goff. She's with me now. Kelly, good morning. Good morning. How did it feel last night? How did it feel? It was very exciting. It was very nerve wracking. I was fully terrified during the day. I realised I can't eat I just felt sick the whole day and

and the doing of it then it was actually when um you know at the top of a show you'll get over the tannoy that message plays like welcome to the bush theater you know please put your phones away all of that stuff there was an audible sigh people just going oh which was great and you could feel it again at the end like people I think were very generous at the end um because I think we were all just delighted to be back I'm aware today though I didn't sleep and I feel oddly low like it's it's quite um it's a lot think, for the old nervous system for all of us. So I think for anybody doing a show, look after yourself. And for anybody, I think going into theatre, going out at all, like it's been a while.

So that has taken me by surprise, if I'm honest. And I wonder also, just from a very practical point of view, if you haven't been acting, which you haven't been, you may be doing other things to keep yourself kind of in the game, as it were, and trying to keep your head there. But is it just that thought also,

do I remember how to do this? Yeah, you know what? I definitely remember how to do it. That hasn't been a problem. And particularly throughout lockdown, it's kind of been ticking over in various ways and engaging with, you know, I write, I do a lot of yoga,

I've been getting in the freezing sea, like, you know, engaging creatively with life. That wasn't a problem. But definitely the thing of what comes galloping back is the uncertainty of, oh, am I doing the right thing is this it should how will people receive it that sort of stuff is actually really the stuff that none of us have had to deal with for the last year we can kind of go carte blanche and do what we like um when we're at home and there's kind of an ownership over our creativity I think but it feels um really really strange to be sharing

it again um and that I think I'm only kind of even sitting with it this morning and going oh that's I forgot about that bit that feeling of just it's just other people it's really bizarre it's so powerful and I've missed it and now I have to get used to it again. And I think most of us have been like that. You know, you see friends for the first time in a while and then suddenly you're wiped. What was it? I'm not understanding why. I was going to say, was it a full house last night? What would you say?

It was a full house, but our full house now is half capacity. And what's that like? Even less. Yes. is half capacity and what's that like even less yes it's it's strange it's it's adjusting for a new normal going all right we're totally sold out but that's still half of the theatre is empty and and just allowing that to be and adjusting to that like this is it is different it's a different experience I think um but equally I think it's one that's really worth engaging with because one we don't know how long it will last

and it is unique to this period in history but I definitely think it's worth going along um I can almost hear this conversation we're having though you know being replayed in the BBC archive in years to come, you know, actor first time back on stage after a year or so talks about how weird it is to perform in front of other people. You know, it is an extraordinary moment. What was it like when you finished? You know, what was that feeling like from the audience going through that with you? That was great. That was genuinely, I think you could almost feel, regardless of what they thought of the play, it was the act of just being there. There was a generosity that was really, really lovely to behold

and an excitement. It was strange. The sound of clapping, it sounded fresh and new. It was very, very, you know how sometimes it can become routine at a theater but actually it's none of us have done this for a year audiences haven't sat down and watched it and actors haven't performed and even that just when you were speaking there a moment ago I kind of became aware of it's quite common for you know actors for us not to work for a year that's absolutely not beyond the pale but it is an entirely different thing when the work goes away and does not exist for a year and for audiences that shows aren't you know are not there

and do not exist so it's definitely a unique experience, I think, at the minute. If it were me and I had the time to be going to a show right now, I would be in like Flynn just to experience it and go, God, this is really something. A real moment in time. Well, I think just before lockdown,

the first one last year, I did go to the theatre and I remember keeping the date despite thinking this, because I thought this was going to be the end of it for a very long time. And the theatre then was already half full. And just going back to a conversation we had yesterday, I got to the women's toilets quicker than I ever have in my life because there wasn't the usual queue. So, you know, there was one benefit, despite it feeling quite eerie. How was it at the end backstage? I know you're in a monologue and I know there's some of those themes.

There's a comedy, but it does deal with serious issues of isolation, social media, issues that actually are relevant to lockdown. But were you, I don't know, were you cautiously hugging? What was that like backstage? No, unfortunately, because it's just me and I have no understudy. I very aware of the the hugging rule does not apply to me at the minute so it's that was very strange going in and just having no one to like put your arms around or um I did invite um a very good friend of mine I rang him during the week and I said look I'm going to get you a ticket can you come because I just want somebody who will love me regardless of how it goes and who has been with me throughout the experience of lockdown as well because I you know I can't hug any of the stage managers I can't

you know Autry the director and I who became aware at one point we're going to get to the end of this play and we're not going to have hugged. It's very strange. And even the idea for most of the rehearsal process it has been three of us in the room. It's been Autry the director, Calais our CSM and myself. That is utterly bizarre.

So I can feel it. I think I'm a little bit touch starved at the minute. I'd be looking forward to the last week of the run and I will be hugging everyone backstage the last week of the run. But at the minute... If the rules don't change, we'll have to see.

I mean, this is it. We've sort of read this script before and seen how it's ended. So we'll see where we get to. But for now, you are back on stage. Congratulations. Break a leg for the next one. Kelly Goff there taking us into a unique moment in time at the Bush Theatre.

The play's called Harm. And yes, she's on her own on the stage, but she's not on her own because there's an audience. So that's what we could definitely say from that front. Of course, if you did go out, let us know how it went. Many messages already coming in actually about speaking your mind and when that has happened to you or you've decided to do so. I'll come to those messages, but keep them coming on 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. And the reason we're having this discussion is because of my next guest.

A 29-year-old Scottish law student says she's being investigated by her university because of comments she's made about men and women. In recent discussions off the back of university lectures, which have been conducted online, of course, Lisa Keogh said women are weaker than men, women are women because they have reproductive organs. Lisa, a mature student, she formerly worked as a mechanic, now retraining,

she's in her final few days at Abertay University in Dundee, where she's been studying law for four years. But last month she received an email from the university accusing her of making inappropriate and offensive comments in class. She's been interviewed by the university and now she says there's a hearing about her today but that hasn't been confirmed by the university itself. Lisa Keogh joins me now. Lisa good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us. First of all thank what did you say in these series of debates around your module, your modules around this particular one, gender, sexuality and the law? Well, I was actually asked what my opinion on what constituted a woman. Somebody had actually outright asked me, what would you say a woman is somebody that's born with reproductive organs and the ability to, you know, menstruate and reproduce.

To which I was obviously challenged. So would you say that somebody who can't reproduce for whatever reasons is not a woman? And I'd said, well, no, of course I wouldn't say that. They're still a woman. They're still born with the appropriate things. It's just obviously they've got something wrong with them that means they can't reproduce. And this was a debate around the module that you're talking about? Yeah.

Fine. So this is the point, I suppose, you were invited to debate this to make your views known. And in terms of why you said those things, what the reason is for that, it's because you would say you were asked. I was outright asked my opinion. Did expect your comments to be uh offensive or viewed as provocative in any way not at all because university is what where you have these sorts of conversations not even just that like my view is that I am genetically a woman I was born a woman and that's my view so I just can't see that being taken as controversial.

I didn't think it would be. Because, of course, there has been a debate going on. We're not going to have this. I mean, we're actually going to talk about what's happened to you and also around this issue, potentially, of it being a free speech issue. And Women's ZARV, of course, has had a lot of debates around this area. But there has been a national debate around the language and also the very point that you're making. Did you have no awareness that somebody, I don't know who or

how many it could be, might think what you were saying was discriminatory? No, I was asked a question and I answered it. So, you know, I didn't say anything that was unlawful. I gave my opinion and an opinion based lecture. And how was the atmosphere afterwards? Did you have any sense that anybody was in any way offended to the point of they would complain about you? I didn't think anybody would complain about me. I was aware that I'd then put a target on my back for expressing, obviously, my opinions. People were very hostile with me afterwards and the environment became very toxic thereafter as well in what way

my opinion wasn't really welcome I had stated something about an MMA fighter who had um transitioned into a woman at the age of 32 and I'd put that into the chat function in the lecture and to which point the chat function was switched off to me and I wasn't able to contribute anymore so that was how you would interpret it as you weren't invited to contribute anymore? My peers were not welcome. I questioned things and I asked things and I stated my opinion on things and my opinion was just never welcome. I got comments made to me which I feel were unacceptable, but that was their opinion. And in terms of your relationship previously with your fellow students,

as a mature student, I mean, you know, maybe you're not at the same point of saying I've gone to university to make friends. But I mean, did you have a sense of your fellow students? Or has that also perhaps been a casualty of Zoom? No, do you know what? I never went to university to make friends. I obviously made some friends along the way. The people who I made friends with I still speak to. They're supporting me through this as well

as the Free Speech Union and Joanna Cherry. But yeah, I didn't go there to make friends. So it's not impacted a relationship. I kind of just went to get the work done and better my career. And how, let's come back to, you just mentioned a couple of the free speech union in Janacherry. Let's come back to that in just a moment, because what then happened? Did you get a letter, an email from the university saying what?

I got an email from the university about a month ago just saying that I had been found to be offensive and discriminatory and that I wished to sort of accept these claims made against me, which obviously I didn't, given the fact that it was quite a broad statement and I hadn't actually been given any specific allegations as to what I'd done. Do you have any, having reflected on it, do you have any regrets about anything you said? No. Okay. So in the sense of the process that the university has now launched, you're waiting to hear what do you understand will happen?

You've had a conversation and the university, which I should say in a statement, has said it's investigating because it has an obligation to investigate all complaints. But it says to students are free to express any lawful views they wish to, as long as it's not done in an intolerant or an abusive way. They say to suggest that students will be investigated for stating their beliefs in a reasonable and collegial way is simply incorrect. It's not saying it suppresses freedom of speech. Yeah, so I understand the university's got no choice but to investigate these complaints, how vexatious they are.

But I think the university authorities could have expressed some common sense on this. Do you understand what will happen to you four days off finishing? It's actually two days now. Two days, excuse me, right. I finish tomorrow. So yeah, I know obviously

one of the more severe punishments is expulsion, which obviously I'm hoping the uni won't do. You don't know at the moment? I don't know how serious they're going to take free speech. I don't know what the punishment's going to be. I'm just hopeful that they're just going to drop it today. Your story has come to prominence because of this relatively new group that you mentioned, the Free Speech Union, set up by the journalist

Toby Young, and you mentioned you've been championed by the SNP MP Joanna Cherry. She's even talked about this in Parliament, saying it's common now in universities across the United Kingdom for feminist academics who speak up for women's sex-based rights under the Equality Act 2010 to be harassed and threatened. Is that what you were doing, though? Because, of course, you're not an academic. you're a student in this. Yeah, I'm a student, and I was using my legal right to free speech in a debate where free speech is welcomed. So it's more of an issue for you about free speech? For me, it's free speech. I should be entitled to say, you know, my opinion without facing severe backlash like this. I shouldn't be getting disciplined for utilising my legal right to

free speech. So, I mean, no discipline no discipline has happened but of course you have had an investigation how has that made you feel? So I would say the investigation in itself is punishment and you know I'm trying to do exams and I've been trying to finish off a dissertation so I would say that the investigation has been over my head I would say that's definitely been punishment in itself. And how has that made you kind of feel during this time? I'm stressed, you know, I'm trying to concentrate on things. I've got an exam today that I've got to put my full concentration into and I've got this looming over my head, which is worrying. In terms of this coming to wider prominence, are you happy about that? Because of course, some could say if you

weren't trying to do anything here with the debate around what constitutes a woman or any of those issues, if you were just purely a student saying your views, having been invited, as you put it, in a seminar, in a debate, then some could say, do you feel your case has been hijacked by those who have a bigger cause? No, I think that my case is very, very relevant. And it shows that, you know, free speech is getting suppressed by the universities not so much the universities per se but the people in it taking offence to what I've said of course they've got the right to take offence but I think reporting somebody for offending you by accident I don't think that's warranted. Do you regret anything you said? No I stand by everything I said I didn't say anything's warranted. Do you regret anything you said? No. I stand by everything I said.

I didn't say anything that was unlawful and everything I said is my view. Where's the line of somebody thinking it's discriminatory though for you? As someone who studied law, because of course you can say things freely, that's of course accepted, but it's where it bleeds over

into it seeming like it was discriminatory. That can even be the tone in which you say things sometimes. For me to say something discriminatory, I would have to single a person out and direct something at them and then discriminate against them in the language used. And that's not something I did. I innocently took part in a debate where controversial and sensitive topics were at hand and I assumed that we were all mature adults that could discuss these topics. Were you a campaigner of any kind before you said this?

Are you a campaigner now? No. This hasn't spurred you into perhaps a bigger thing. Sometimes when things happen to you in life, you think, well, hang on, what's this? And you start reading and you start looking. I would say it spurred me to definitely, you know, do more work around free speech.

What do you want to do with your degree? Initially, I wanted to do criminal law. I'm now thinking about a move to human rights law or politics. And this attention that you've received, are you going to do anything with that? I mean, you've said you've been stressed by the university investigation. I know you've got two kids, you've got exams, you've got a lot going on. Is this something that you actually welcome, this attention, having this conversation? I welcome it. I need to get the message out there that we're all entitled to you know have free speech and obviously point out that offense is subjective and just because

somebody says something you take offense to it doesn't mean that that's offensive so i think i can use this this time and this recognition i've got just now to do the right thing. The reason I also asked if you regretted it, just as a final thought from you, and I want to get back to your revision, is sometimes, and I'm seeing this in some of the messages when I asked about the consequences of speaking your mind, people regret it not because they've changed their view or they think their view was wrong, although that can happen, but because they like a quiet life. They would like to, for instance, finish their degree without this hanging over them.

So that was the other part of why I asked you that. Is there any part of you that now perhaps would change sharing or being as candid in the future? Not at all, because I think if I start being quiet and being suppressed and silenced, then I am letting people silence me and I don't think that's good I think everybody's got the right not to be silenced and everybody's got the right to their opinion so I don't think even in the future I would hold back so to speak.

Well of course I mean I'm very aware that we're speaking and thank you for that very well what the university said of course I don't know what any of your classmates said but that's of course what the university is looking at. Lisa Keogh, thank you for talking to us today. Thank you for having me. Messages coming in on this, just to share one that's straight in here. If it's this free speech union ask, and if you're asked for someone's opinion,

just talking about free speech here, then they should respect the answer. If anyone isn't going to respect an opinion, they shouldn't ask the questions. There should be legal protection, says Rob, against this sort of attack, against open debating. What have we come to, especially in universities? Thought policing. Of course, if you were part of that class and you wanted to get in touch, please do so with Women's Hour.

I asked a colleague many years ago if they'd changed shift and was shouted at that they were unable to go home. If they did, I asked why they hadn't learned to drive. This set off accusations of bullying, which led to the person going on sick leave for months and my early retirement because I received no support after working for the business for 40 years. Another one here, the art of friendly debate has been slowly disappearing over the last 10 to 15 years. It's increasingly dangerous to share any views with people unless you know and trust them enough to be able to discuss without getting angry. And social media has heightened people's belief if they hold an opinion, it must be right and therefore anyone else's must be wrong.

Tolerance for different points of view is being subjugated to the woke frenzy of disabling any form of comments except which is currently deemed to be politically correct. Where does this lead us? And so it goes on. I'll come back to that message if I may. I'm a child of two immigrants and I usually vote Labour. My partner is white, British and usually voted Conservative.

We would often get into arguments about race relations and politics. And what's been eye opening is learning that when someone approaches us with a different belief and opinion, instead of diving into defending our own beliefs, we should initially listen and attempt to understand other perspectives. Now, we're both able to talk about sensitive topics without falling out because we've learned to listen first. And so that goes on. I'm just trying to give you a sense of the types of messages we've got coming in. Keep them coming in please, very interesting. There's other examples here from university and also from the workplace. Now to a very different workplace that we know very little about or perhaps a little bit more than we did or what they want us to know. GCHQ, the Government Communications Headquarters,

one of the three UK intelligence and security agencies, along with MI5 and MI6, tackling the increasingly complex threats of cybercrime is top of its agenda. This morning on the Today programme, you may have heard the boss of Russia's equivalent of MI6 denying involvement in what's been described as one of the world's most sophisticated cyber attacks on the Texas company SolarWinds Orion Network, with US institutions from the Pentagon to NASA potentially compromised. And yet, a former GCHQ boss also on the day programme said there's compelling evidence that the Russians were behind it. Well, we happen to have another former GCHQ chief here with us, who until recently was one of the most powerful women

there and created the UK's national cyber security force, Sally Walker. And we're also talking at a time when the present boss of GCHQ is trying to boost the number of women. But what difference would that make? Sally Walker, good morning. Hello, Emma. Nice to see you again. When you hear, and I should say, sorry, I'll qualify that. We've met before. We met at GCHQ when I was there doing a special programme for the BBC. you were in post and tight-lipped you were. Then, let's see if that has changed now you have left. A big smile I can see on the Zoom camera here.

The Russian spy boss, just on the story of the day, has denied all involvement. When you're sitting at home listening to that, what do you do? Do you think, come on, pull my leg, pull another one. What's your reaction? Honestly, I have no comment that's meaningful because the joy of stepping outside of that world

is you sort of leave it behind. And of course, these issues matter. But you're going to have to find someone who knows what they're talking about, because I'm all for expressing opinion. But I'd like to have that in some form of fact, have the latest facts to offer. Fair enough. Fair enough. But I suppose it's interesting when we've just heard another former GCHQ boss saying there's compelling evidence that the Russians were behind it. And I just wanted to make sure we asked you as one of the former top people there. And I suppose what I'm getting at also is cyber warfare is big business these days. It's very different to when you started out 25 years ago. Do you think the general public

underestimate the threats or are we getting better at understanding it? I don't think society generally and the citizen really understands the scale, complexity or potential of the threat. And I think the language is difficult. I think cyber warfare is quite emotive. It underplays the fact that actually cybercrime is the thing that is most likely to affect the average British citizen. And, you know, now I'm on the outside, my sort of contribution tends to be, you know, WhatsApp group in schools. And if you talk about the dark side of the Internet and the threat there, there's no quicker way of getting expelled from a WhatsApp group than talking about the dark side of the net. So, well, we've just been we've just been talking about candor and speaking from your own experience in your own mind.

It sounds like that's not potentially welcome in that group. I think it's difficult because people are it's one of those areas where we don't have personal reference points for ourselves. And all of us who are parents want to believe that we're keeping our children safe and that we're being responsible um and it is difficult to conceive of a world where your child playing fortnight or your child talking to their friends online could be in a dangerous environment that isn't a comfortable um framing of the issue for most of us and so i don't think people do like that being brought into their sitting rooms and having to confront the reality that the online world, while it's rich with opportunity, is also in some regard a dark and dangerous and highly risky place.

Let's come back to that, because I know you've got particular views about what you've seen with especially young men and how we raise boys, and also as a parent of three boys. I mentioned last time we spoke, you couldn't say very much. What do you say to people, for instance, as a parent on a WhatsApp group, about what you actually did for a quarter of a century? Very little. I mean, I live in Cheltenham still, so, you know,

the workforce and ex-workforce is quite significant. So I think people have their own perceptions, but I have to leave it at that. I mean, my career is now wrapped in bubble wrap and put to one side. I'm very proud of that time and what was achieved and particularly the extraordinary people who work there who were my colleagues. But I have left it behind.

I do think I am keen to take that experience, both in terms of crisis management, big strategic challenges and the digital environment that we all have to now live, learn and work in and help people through some of that environment, because it is new. It is different and it's changing the way we think. It's changing the way our young people in particular are connecting with ideas and influences. You've heard some of that in your last segment. And I do think there's opportunity to reframe some of the debate and think differently about our digital environment. And I'm working more as a consultant now, but what do you make of Jeremy Fleming, the current head of GCHQ, who wants to boost the number of women. Women are in the minority in the intelligence services, put it at 36%. Do you agree with that, that we need more women? So I'd reframe it. Is the status quo adequate? Of course not. But what's needed is

brilliant people. And I think what folk bring to the problem is more our ideas and less our identities. So diversity to me is about the human brain and what it can do. And I think categorising that into what's on the outside is less helpful. So it's more about what people call neurodiversity, about actually having diversity of thought as opposed to if you're a man or a woman. To me, it is. It's all about the brain. And I think neurodiversity implies the kind of distinction between a neurotypical brain and someone with dyslexia or autism.

I mean, even in terms of how you think, what your value system is. Although interesting, if I may, apprentices on GCHQ scheme are four times more likely to have dyslexia. That was a recent report. Just in terms of that ability to try and drive different people together for different solutions and thoughts. Yeah, and that's taken decades of thinking about how to change internal processes and cultures. If you're an organisation wanting to recruit a neuro-atypical brain and you've still got paper-based recruitment forms, you're less likely to have a dyslexic person applying and so on and so on. So yeah, we're thinking very hard about what solutions to that might look like and how you use the power of technology to help neuro-atypical personnel into the workplace and to support them in training and education because it's a huge opportunity there. use the power of technology to help neuro atypical personnel into the workplace and to

support them in training and education because it's a huge opportunity there so so we don't need more women per se if your workforce doesn't uh represent society you are not maximizing the potential that is out there of the human brain. But to say, if I had been walking around the university milk round, if I was a graduate, like Lisa, about to leave university, if you recruited me by saying I need women in my organisation, I would be more likely to walk the other way than walk towards, I think. So Mr Flemmy's not got quite the right sales patter to perhaps get women on board.

It's a civil service wide line. It is important that civil service reflects society at large. But I think, you know, the message I would want to hear women and those of different ethnic backgrounds and other minorities is there is opportunity for you within the national security community and across government, local government, all the way through to be brilliant and to be different and don't feel that you have to conform and don't feel that you have to fit a particular definition of ideas and initiatives in coming to solve the problems that we face as a nation. I suppose the question is always, will it run better if you are more representative? And the reason I'm obviously asking about women is because he's been talking about it. And the instance or the question to ask pertaining to your former line of work is, would we be safer if there were more women? Do women bring something different to the intelligence agencies? I worked with all sorts of extraordinary people and there was a difference in some of the skill sets that women brought uh and i think we've seen that in covid i think we've seen it in uh community support you know the the unpaid

roles the caring roles the the nurturing the supporting the thinking about others the empathy for those in more difficult circumstances were those typical of our female workforce at GCHQ above and beyond our male workforce? I'm not sure that's a fair categorisation actually but those traits existed and what I'd be most keen to see is those traits being rewarded and recognised whether it's within government or outside of government in our communities, because the work that is done by people with those skill sets is extraordinary. And we as a society perhaps have valued it less than we should. And I think COVID has given us an opportunity to reset that. Let's go back to something you were saying about your, I know you're concerned about this,

the power of angry teenage boys when you've looked in your cyber security work. Tell us about that one and what you mean by that. So it's less in the cyber world and more in just life. Over the last year, taking a sabbatical, watching the intergenerational play, you know, teenage boys having the police called on them because they're in groups of more than four. You know, if you want to criminalise a young man, then make him look and feel like a criminal. I think the interesting world is online. in groups of more than four you know if you want to if you want to criminalize a young man then

make make him look and feel like a criminal i think the interesting world is online where boys anecdotally are exploring ideas uh through online sources and finding information just as they find pornography that is quite extreme and perhaps would shock all of us. And they feel that those ideas are offline, that it somehow makes them outside of the norms of society. So rather than expressing those views and talking about them openly and exploring those ideas from safe foundations, they're going to the edges of the spectrums. And I think that's dangerous. And I think as we emerge from COVID, we need to think very carefully about how to be inclusive of the majority,

as well as how to support minorities as we build back. So those white boys in the classroom need a lot of thought care and attention and and sorry so you're saying that then translates into how we educate boys differently yeah i mean you know i'm i'm the mum of three boys talking to other mums of boys i'm sure mums of girls would have different views on the classroom that are equally valid but but boys are being there's a there's a sense that they're being told to shut up and put their hand down and move to the back because they're being disruptive and the girls are being um celebrated for being creative and for being uh uh exploring ideas and so on and i think any any time that we're taking things to that extreme the pendulum's swinging too fast so as

a passionate diversity champion and supporter of minority perspectives, I think we do need to look out for boys too. Do your boys know what you were up to for 25 years? Can you tell them anything? I remember you saying there was a because he's glad that you can't see my face. And he said, mum, no one will know who you are, will you? So he quite likes that sort of sense that, you know, mum's still a little bit invisible. Yes. Well, you had to be invisible by description for a very long time and come up, I'm sure, with all sorts of excuses as to why you couldn't make parents evening and whatnot. Why we not at parents evening I forgot yes that's what the teacher said as well meaning I was quite busy. And I can't tell you what I was doing I've not done very well here and one person asked me to ask you where would she not go if we were allowed

to go traveling everywhere having been in her job? There's quite a lot of places i wouldn't go um you've got your own list of hostile states i think i would i would prefer not to uh not to travel to well sadly for you i know this sabbatical you're meant to go to the uh or try and go to tokyo and do the olympic games and all these things and what a what a year you picked to do it sally walker we'll talk again and perhaps even more will come out. But I remember when we spoke last time, also the very striking thing was there hadn't been a maternity policy in place at GCHQ until what year? When? 2007. Now it's completely normal. We can move on.

Just going to let that percolate with people for a moment there. Sally Walker, thank you very much for your time this morning. Now to the final instalment of our series, Second Chances, Mothers and Addiction. The number of children in care in England is at its highest since 1985 and it's rising. A mother's addiction to drugs and alcohol is often one of the issues and domestic violence is also a factor. The reporter and DJ Millie Chowles became a mum at 40 last year. She's in recovery from addiction and feels she was given lots of chances to change. But her fear now is that women are not getting those opportunities and the impact on them and their

children and society is devastating. Today, the story of a woman who's come full circle, and I should say in this there are references to suicide. I've been following Angela Fraser-Wicks on social media for a while now. She's someone who had her two sons removed and adopted. She shares her experiences as a birth mother publicly to campaign for the rights of other mums involved in child protection and the care system and to challenge the huge stigma that exists for mothers in her position. I read this poem she wrote about her experiences and thought it would be a really powerful place to start her story. From the minute I saw that little blue line,

I knew deep down that you'd never be mine. From the first little flutter to that firm little kick, I knew it wouldn't be me. So Angela, how did your children come to be removed from your care? It's a pretty typical story, I think. Abusive childhood, drug and alcohol addiction, mental health, and then inevitably in the end it was a really abusive relationship where I just was deemed unable to keep my children safe from the perpetrator.

Do you think that that was the right decision? Do you think you were able to keep your children safe? I think in the end that it was the right decision. I think more could have been done to help me keep the children safe. But I think removing them from an environment where they were at risk always has to be seen as the right decision. And were you given the help that you needed when you did have custody of your children? No, sadly there was very little awareness of the domestic violence. It was very much a you must protect your children and there was very little emphasis on we will help you to do this or we will protect you while you're doing it. So can you tell me a little bit more about the circumstances of the removals of your kids and what led to them finally being removed? Yeah my son was initially in temporary foster care

when he was around two and a half because I was struggling with mental health and various other issues. I then had a quite a long battle to fight to get him to come home again. But he was returned to me shortly before the birth of my second son. This all happened 17 years ago, so it's quite a long time ago now. And unfortunately, I was physically very unwell at the time. And the pressure was just all too much. And in the end, I admitted I can't protect them. I can't keep them safe,

please can someone get me out of there and unfortunately they simply removed the children and I was left behind and they were never returned to me, they were adopted a year later. So in terms of relationships, did you have any relationships with the professionals involved in your life at that time and in the decision making process? No, I don't think I was even part of the process. I very much felt like I was on the outside looking in. I was never really allowed to argue that if I argued anything that was said about me, even if it was categorically untrue, I was just seen as not being prepared to accept responsibility. It's clear Angela's treatment during the process left her feeling powerless and very much done too. Trying to put myself in her shoes I can't because

I haven't been there but if someone tried to take my child away I think my reaction would be primal. I don't know how I'd keep it together in any way. How did she react? I think when the children were first taken, I literally just lay on the floor and just screamed. And it is, it's an almost guttural noise. It's an animal instinct. It's awful. And then I drank and took drugs to the point where it would block everything out and numb it so that I basically could just keep going through each day.

I spent the next few weeks praying that they were going to change their minds, that they were going to make the decision that the boys could actually come home again. And that was the only thing that kept me going, fighting for them to come back, fighting for them to rehome me, fighting for them to get me away from him. And then when I found out that that actually wasn't going to happen and that they were never going to give the children back and the children were going to be adopted I then just quite simply sat down and began to plan how I would die and when I would die and how I would do it and then it wasn't until I was in hospital in intensive care, surrounded by people who really wanted to help and wanted to care for me,

that I even started to think about the possibility that there may be a life without them. I'm so sorry. So you made a really serious attempt on your life and then how did you start to make any kind of recovery from that? The point where I actually started to see things differently and started to see the possibility of a future was actually given to me by a nurse who had told me that she'd lost two children, that her husband had taken them abroad and never brought them back. And she didn't know if they were still alive or not. And I just couldn't understand how

she could still be continuing to live. And I asked her how she did it. And she told me that she knew in her heart at some point in the future, her children were going to come looking for her. And she didn't want them to find the person that they would have been told about. She knew they would have been told all kinds of lies about her.

She wanted them to find the real her, the successful her. And I started to think, actually, maybe she's got a point and that was the point where I decided I'm not going to die I'm going to see my children I'm going to say goodbye to them and when they're older I am going to have a relationship with them. Something she's been raising awareness of through lockdown is how Covid regulations have impacted parents opportunities for a final goodbye with their children who are going to be adopted. I asked her if she had her own final goodbye.

I was given an hour and was told, don't cry, try and make this a happy experience. And I was actually made to do it in the same dirty, cramped conference room that I'd had previous contact in. And I took gifts for them when they were little and gifts for when they were older. I had little silver tankards engraved with their nicknames on it so that they wouldn't ever forget about that and despite having been told not to cry and to make it a positive experience I didn't actually manage to do that

and I didn't believe that that was right for my eldest son. I thought it was actually important for him to know that I was sad that he was going. And the very last thing I said to him as I strapped him into the car and kissed him goodbye was, you know, I love you and I will write very, very soon. And then that was it. They drove off out of the car park and I just collapsed onto the floor. I'm actually struggling to keep composed as I hear you tell that story. You tell it in such a sort of matter-of-fact way. Why is that?

You develop an ability to almost talk about it as if it's not your life you're talking about. Now, because I have such a wonderful life, I find it quite difficult to be able to acknowledge that actually that was me that did happen. I 100% relate to that. When I look back at myself at my lowest points in life it really does feel like someone completely different. It's really hard to reconcile that person I was with who I am now. The two people are so different but they're obviously both me and it's vital for me

as someone in recovery to remember that. There's also the point that throughout the whole involvement with the local authority and social services, if I cried, I would be judged upon that. I would be told I was being hysterical. In fact, I was once told if you don't stop being hysterical, you'll never get your son home. So you then developed an ability to cut off your emotions because you

knew that that would be used against you. So I think that that has stayed with me. And what about the stigma of having your children removed? How has that affected your life? The stigma in the beginning was horrendous. And my partner just kept telling me, you mustn't tell anybody, you mustn't tell anybody you had your children taken away. And because I'd moved to a new area, I then found myself in this awful situation of pretending like my children hadn't existed. And because I was so ashamed, and it was genuinely not until I met other birth parents, other birth mums, that I began to lift a little bit of that shame, because I'd hear their stories, and my heart would go out to them

but I didn't blame them, I didn't judge them and I started to realise that actually by hiding it I was actually making the stigma worse and I was so fortunate to have been given a voice through after adoption and then later with the family rights group. How did you get into recovery? What was that process like for you? The conversation I'd had with social workers about the fact that my children were never coming home had taken place on New Year's Eve. So two years later from that date when I'd been reducing my methadone dosage down and down and down until I was ready to

withdraw, I decided that I should take my last doors on New Year's Eve. Something to look back on and be proud of rather than to just look back on that day as the day that my life ended. The alcohol side of things took me a lot longer, but I think that that's because it's socially acceptable to drink. That took me meeting my husband and it's now been 15 years that I've been clean and more than 10 years sober. I know that you've had a child since then with no involvement from social services, a child that you've raised. Can you tell me how the experience of losing your first two children, how that's impacted your experience of motherhood in recovery? It was absolutely terrifying, you know, the meeting with the social

worker the assessment process then to actually get a letter from the social worker saying actually we're not we're not even going to open a file we're going to take no further action and pinning the letter on the kitchen wall for some considerable time afterwards because it was just sort of my safety net knowing they've said that it's going to be fine. The fear itself never went away and in fact still doesn't go away. I still see everything through a safeguarding lens. I still panic if she's got a bruise on her leg and I don't know where it's come from. I worry that someone's going to ask where it came from. Do you think that if you were back in that situation and having children removed from your care today

that it would be any different from how it was 17 years ago? I would give so much to be able to say yes. And I think there are examples of good practice out there. We're still taking away children from women who realistically just need support. And I don't think there's any of us out there who are saying that we shouldn't be removing children from situations where they are really at risk but I think that we really need to be starting to look at the whole family rather than just focusing the lens on the child and thinking that if we just pick that child up from that situation

and put them into a different situation that we've solved the problem. And over the years have you had contact with your children? Yes we managed a couple of years after we'd said goodbye to actually get some letters through and that went on for quite a while. I had a much better relationship with my eldest son because obviously we had that bond, we had that relationship, he remembered me. As they got older and hit their teenage years that contact started to break down somewhat because they were having issues around confusion around identity and and other things like that so I had built up a good relationship with their new mum and I'd sort of via letters had sort of explained look if if they need to take a break

if they need to step back then so be it that's what we'll do and then for the next four and a half years from then I heard nothing from him and then on the 16th of December last year I got an email from my old local authority saying that he wanted to contact me that he wanted to talk I didn't know if he was trying to make contact because something bad had happened or he was in trouble or so when when I made contact I'd sort of said you know hello sweetheart I hope you're okay and you know you don't have to call me mum we can take this at your pace and I just got this almost instant response that just said hi mum we facetimed on another and that was it there he was little boy. And he told me that in the end it had been his mum and him had sat down and had trawled the internet

because they knew enough about me and the work that I'd been doing to be able to look for me, and that's how they found me. And we're slowly trying to build a new relationship. He's spoken about how lucky him and his brother are to have had the experience that they've had. You know, we know so many cases of adoption breakdown or where things don't work out well for the children. And he's had a wonderful life

and his parents are just the most wonderful human beings. You know, they've given him everything that I wished I could have given him and more. We're the lucky ones, you know, we did actually come out the other side of this relatively unscathed. If you missed any of the episodes in this series with Millie Charles, you can catch up on Second Chances, Mothers and Addiction. Just search on BBC Sounds or go over to the Woman's Hour website where you can read an article about the whole series. Now, back in March 2020, during the first lockdown,

abortion regulations were relaxed in England, Scotland and Wales to allow telemedical early abortion care. This meant women were able to continue to access abortion services during the pandemic by having medication posted to them following a telephone consultation with a qualified nurse or midwife if in the early stages of pregnancy and more than 100,000 women have done so. Prior to that change women had to go to a clinic for a face-to-face consultation before an early abortion which means up to 10 weeks gestation. On Friday along with the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, charities and medical bodies working across sexual and reproductive health, human rights and gender equality and liberation, signed an open letter

to the Health Secretary, Matt Hancock, calling for these temporary measures to be made permanent in England. I'm joined by Dame Professor Leslie Regan, past president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists and a signatory of that letter. Do you think it will be made permanent and why should it be? Good morning, Emma. Well, I very much hope so because the introduction of telemedicine in medical abortion has really improved care for women. It's safer, it's made it more accessible, more compassionate, and it's been particularly important for vulnerable groups of girls and women, women who might be in difficult relationships, victims of domestic violence, ethnic minorities. So I'm looking to ensure that something that has been such a successful implementation since March the 30th last year continues because it's absolutely

scientifically been demonstrated that this improves care for girls and women. But I remember when we've talked about this before because there's been other changes during this time that people are concerned about a lack of medical supervision that the the opposite of what you've just described could be the case that people could be posing as others and getting the medicine. People could be taking the medicine after the time that they're meant to be, or people could be coerced or forced into having an abortion against their will or what they want. Yes, I think there have been a lot of scare stories that have been put out predominantly on social media. And I'm really happy to have the opportunity to sort of, if you like, challenge them and just reassure your listeners that this really is not the case. All of the evidence has

demonstrated that this is a real improvement in care. And that in fact, women who are in coercive relationships have benefited from it. And remember, of course, that before we were able to provide telemedicine, which doesn't mean there is no medical input. It means that the first consultation is conducted by a nurse or a midwife or a doctor with the woman, either by telephone or on Zoom or on Teams on a virtual platform. And then if they're deemed to be satisfactory or safe to go forward with this early medical abortion before 10 weeks, then they are sent the pills by post rather than making them travel hundreds of miles, have to organise their childcare, go through all the traumas of going in and registering with the receptionist in the clinic. It's been a great, great boon. And I would be really, really sad

if we went backwards. And I would also add, Emma, that since it's been proven to be medically more beneficial and certainly more cost effective for our NHS, that if we were to go backwards and not to have these special measures become Sunday, which said an open letter that we did try and get access to, to the health secretary, that claims to have the signature of 600 medics. We weren't able to see it, the Department of Health haven't published it, but it's understood to be based on a GP survey conducted on behalf of Christian Concern and the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children, who want this reversed. And I've just shared some of those sorts of concerns that they have around, for instance, the pills being used beyond the 10-week limit. Yes. And I, like you, I haven't seen who these signatories are. But, you know, it's not difficult to believe that they're probably people who don't have or are anti-abortion or not pro-choice. And I think it would be important to emphasise as well

to your listeners that nobody's forcing girls and women to have an abortion. What we've done in this country, thanks to the COVID pandemic, is we've actually provided a way for girls and women to access this care safely, compassionately at an earlier gestation. So it's by definition, it's medically safer because they're occurring earlier. And nobody's enforcing, nobody's forcing rather, anyone to have one. We're just saying in a nobody's forcing, rather, anyone to have one. We're just saying, in a civilised society, we've got to make sure that we have provision for this. The Department of Health have given us a statement, and essentially at the bottom of it, it says,

the government's consultation on whether to make the measure permanent is closed, and we're carefully considering all responses and plan to publish the response later this year. Are you worried it will not be made permanent from your point of view? I'm not worried, but I don't take anything for granted and I'm not complacent about the fact that there is often pressure from anti-abortion groups. And I will very much hope that the government will look at the evidence

and see that it is medically far superior than what we had before and therefore want to ensure that girls and women continue to benefit. We will see what happens with that. Dame Professor Leslie Regan who was previously the President of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists who signed that letter hoping that that change will stay. Thank you for that. A message here about speaking your mind. I spoke my mind to my son about his marriage woes and advised him against spending £5,000 on a new van to set up a carpet-fitting business. He's already in debt and he hasn't spoken to me since.

Well, thank you for talking to us. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Sneakers? Trainers. Whatever you want to call them,

they are amongst the most iconic cultural objects of our time. But their evolution is a story rarely told until now. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakernomics. Across this podcast, we're going to be telling the crazy origin stories of the most well-known sports companies and their relentless quest to be the world's number one brand. Sneakernomics tells a story of fierce competition and rivalry, one that tore families and friendships apart and even divided towns. We'll follow in the footsteps of mavericks, hustlers and dreamers

and hear their tales of boom and bust, fame and infamy, hope and heartbreak. Above all, this is the story of the people behind the shoes. From BBC Radio 4, this is the story of the people behind the shoes. From BBC Radio 4, this is Sneakonomics. Subscribe at BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven

and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.