Woman's Hour - Women triathletes, Imani Erriu and romantasy, Prostitute's caution

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

A new report from SheRACES and Fund Her Tri UK has found that women triathletes can experience unacceptable harassment at events. It also showed that women competitors struggle with the lack of toilet facilities and changing facilities. Sophie Power is an ultrarunner and founder of SheRACES – she joins Nuala McGovern to tell us more about the report and the change they hope to make.A lawyer representing several alleged victims of Sean 'Diddy' Combs says the potential number of civil legal cases against the musician "is probably in the 300 range". The BBC's Mark Savage reminds us of the allegations against the US rapper. Mr Combs has denied all the charges against him.Campaigners are calling for an end to the “Prostitutes Caution”, saying it’s preventing women leaving sex work behind them. The caution stays on record for 100 years and there’s no appeal possible. A new report from the English Collective of Prostitutes says two thirds of women they surveyed who’d been given one found it hard to get a different type of job. Nuala talks to spokesperson for the ECP, Laura Watson, and MP for Nottingham East Nadia Whittombe, who’s backing the campaign for a change in the law.Imani Erriu’s Heavenly Bodies Trilogy has taken TikTok by storm. With its mix of romance and fantasy, it’s inspiring a new generation of readers. She shares her journey from self-publishing to viral success and the magic behind her stories.Women in Afghanistan have been banned from midwife and nurse training under a reported new Taliban decree. What impact is this having on those women? And what about the further impact on the health of women and children in Afghanistan? Nurse and journalist Bahaar Joya tells us more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. The latest on the lawsuits involving Sean Combs in just a minute. But also today we hear from a woman who has trained Afghan midwives. She'll tell us how the recent clampdown by the Taliban on medical education will affect pregnant women in the country. We also have the Romantasy author, Imani Eriu. Yes, that is romance and fantasy, hugely popular with young women.

Her latest book is Heavenly Bodies. We'll hear all about it. And to other bodies, endurance athletes. Today, I want to hear from you. We'll be speaking about a new survey that has detailed that female athletes are being deterred from competing in triathlons, having experienced harassment at races. It includes verbal harassment, comments about bodies, clothing, ability.

I'd like to know what it has been like for you as you challenge yourself in competitive environments like triathlons maybe long distant runs maybe i have some iron man competitors listening well you can text the program the number is 84844 on social media or at bbc woman's hour or you can email us through our website if you'd like to whatsapp us for a message or a voice note. The number is 03 700 100 444. And a call to abolish something known as prostitutes caution. We'll discuss. But let me begin with a lawyer representing several alleged victims of Sean Diddy Combs,

who says the potential number of civil legal cases against the musician is probably in the 300 range that they are his words. We also know that the musician Jay-Z has been accused of a crime also related to Combs. The BBC's Mark Savage joined me before we came on air and I asked him to remind us of what exactly the allegations

are against Sean Combs. So this all started last autumn when Sean Combs' former partner, the singer Cassie, whose real name is Cassandra Ventura, filed a case against him accusing him of a decade-long period of physical and sexual abuse. That case was settled within 24 hours,

but it triggered what you could almost call a landslide of other claims against him that eventually led to a federal investigation. His homes were raided by the FBI and he is now facing governmental charges of sex trafficking and sexual abuse. Separate to that, there are about 20 civil cases from people who say that the musician abused them who are seeking damages. So there is a lawyer representing several of the alleged victims. As I mentioned, this is for civil legal cases against Mr. Combs. and he says that there may be as many as 300. You have spoken to that lawyer. Tell me about him. So his name is Tony Busby. He is a Texas lawyer, quite a big character in US legal circles. He has sued BP over the death of 15 people at an oil refinery. He has represented the Texas governor.

He has himself run for mayor and caused a lot of trouble in his hometown by buying a World War II tank and parking it on his lawn. So he is a big character, but he is also a very successful lawyer. Most recently, he helped almost two dozen women reach an out-of-court settlement against the American football player Deshaun Watson over allegations of sexual assault.

And he's taking a similar tactic with the Sean Combs case. He has filed 20 cases so far in courts in New York and California, representing both men and women who allege that Sean Combs sexually assaulted them. Some of those people were minors at the times of the alleged offences, which, of course, Mr Combs has denied several times very vigorously, both through his lawyers and in court. I mentioned that these are civil cases that Mr Busby is talking about. One aspect in your article on this story today, Mark, that struck me, is that anonymity could be waived. That's right. Well, anonymity is not guaranteed in the US.

And Sean Combs' lawyers have petitioned in every case to have the identity of the plaintiff revealed, saying that it's impossible for them to prepare if they do not know the identity of the victim. In three cases so far, the judges have agreed, but it will be decided on a case-by-case basis. Now, I asked Mr Busby about this, and he said he had actually vetted all of the people that he's represented and told them in advance that they may have to reveal their names, and all of them had agreed to it. This is something that he deployed in his previous case as I mentioned against the footballer Deshaun Watson. In that case the lawyers petitioned for the women's identities to be revealed and they did it in one sweep, just dropped all of the names at once. He says that asking for the alleged victims names to be revealed is a scare tactic that lawyers hope

that it will make them back off their claims knowing that their identity will be revealed in public. But he says in this case, people are prepared to go on the record with their names. Also this week, we know that another musician, Jay-Z, has been accused of rape at a party with Sean Combs. The response to that? So, yes, this was a case that was originally filed

in New York in October. It regards a 13-year-old who claims she accepted a drink at a party hosted by Mr Combs, after which someone who was originally identified as Celebrity A, but who we now know to be Jay-Z, allegedly removed her clothes and raped her, after which Mr Combs also assaulted her. Those names were made public on Sunday.

Jay-Z has strongly denied them. In fact, he tried to sue Mr Busby before his name was revealed, accusing him of extortion, of threatening to reveal his name unless there was a payment made. That is something that Mr Busby has called a frivolous lawsuit that was a last-ditch attempt to stop his name being made public. But obviously, in this case, as in all the others, Jay-Z and Sean Coombs, have denied the allegations against them, called them sickening and an attempt to obtain money from celebrities who fear having lies spread about them. That is the statement from their lawyers.

So what is expected to happen next in this timeline? So the government's case will take precedence. The criminal trial that is due to begin next May on the charges of sex trafficking and racketeering is expected to go ahead. We know that there are still grand jury hearings being held in that case, so there may be more witnesses added

and possibly more defendants, because obviously in a racketeering case, you expect there to be an organisation who enables this criminal behaviour. Again, those trials do take a lot of time to put together. We don't know whether the May trial date will hold, but that's where we are heading for at the moment. In the meantime, Sean Combs is still in jail in Manhattan under what appear to be quite harsh conditions, according to his lawyers. And the civil trials, if and when they go ahead, are likely to come after the criminal trial

because it's very unusual for those two things to run concurrently because obviously you could say something in one that would prejudice the course of the other. Mark Savage there, BBC Music reporter. His piece is up online at bbcnews.com. Thanks very much to him. We will continue to cover that story. Now, you might remember a photo from

about six years ago. It was a female athlete who had paused in the middle of her 106-mile mountain race. She wasn't having a rest. It was to stop to breastfeed her three-month-old. You see next to her, actually, a guy with his, he's on his back

with his feet up, kind of getting the blood rushing back down through his legs. Well, the woman was Sophie Power. Just a few years later, she founded She Races, which is a not-for-profit organisation aimed at getting women on the start line. And now there's a new report into female triathletes and their experience of competing. SheRaces has found that women racing in triathlons are exposed to unacceptable harassment, both verbal and physical. Let's hear more from Sophie. Welcome to Woman's Hour. For those that aren't familiar with SheRaces, I mentioned you're trying to get people to the starting line, but I suppose also coming up about what might be stopping people. What did your report find?

So the report found that, I mean, we've been working on running races for several years and we started with pregnancy deferrals because the reason I was in that photo, I was on the start line with a three-month-old baby, was because they wouldn't let me defer my place to the next year. They said, pregnancy is a choice. Injuries, we'll let you defer if you get injured. And I wanted to defer, but they didn't think about it. So I was looking at the barriers for women to start lines.

And we then did a big piece of research in running and found it's not just about pregnancy defer. There's so many other things that events can do to welcome us. And we've done so much work in running races from 5Ks to ultra marathons that we wanted to then take the step and look at triathlons. Similar event, men and women lining up in the same line and start line. And you've got the event directors are mostly male. And they said they designed the events through their own lens. And we wanted to understand what are the barriers of women seeing and how we can advise those events to make them

more inclusive of women. So what did you find? So we found that women are super simple changes events can make to encourage women. Often we see these images of start lines and they're all the fast men on the start line. And we want to see ourselves to be there. We want to see women of all colours that look like us, of all abilities. That makes us feel we belong. We want the language to be more inclusive. The biggest, baddest, toughest, hardest isn't something that's going to get women to sign up. We want to know that we've got the confidence, get the confidence that we lack because I guess from the age of five years old, we've always felt we weren't as good enough at sport as boys are. And we found these women are having the toilet provisions not good enough. There's no changing facilities that many women, especially Muslim

women, need to be on that start line. But then we also found that the behavior of male athletes sometimes wasn't conducive to giving women a safe and secure experience. And this is something that if we address, we can give more women that joy of triathlon. for themselves in a way. I mean, is it specifically men harassing women or could it also be women harassing women in those very vigorous, competitive environments? I think a lot of the behaviour, people don't know they're actually doing. Okay. And this is why we think it can be addressed. And things like passing too closely on the bike.

A lot of women, we're a lot smaller than men. So we can be swum over, we can be addressed and things like passing too too closely on the bike a lot of women we're a lot smaller than men so we can be swum over we can be punched um we feel things differently to men they may think that's okay behavior we feel it a different way so simple steps to educate men and other women on how we we behave on courses and I think it's because, especially in these longer distances in the UK, some of these races have 10 times as many men as women. And that then creates this atmosphere that's more male dominated. And if we can take steps

to make them aware of their behavior, we then can create that atmosphere that women feel more confident. We can get more women stepping up to those longer distances and having that real sense of achievement of challenging themselves kind of further than they have before. I'll come to you in a moment about why triathlon specifically, but just as I'm thinking about one of the points that you raised there, so if you know the starting line,

that you see all these men, not women, it might be that they would say, well, the men are going to be faster. Therefore, they want to be on that front line to kind of take off, you know, that we see in lots of professional races as well, that those that are fastest have that spot. Oh, and that's really important. I think it's when you use that as your imagery on a website. I understand. That's the first thing you see. And that's the only thing you see. And especially we find that the women's race isn't covered in the same way as a male race sometimes. So you see something announced as the winner of the races, and it's most often a man, and then the first female.

There's two separate races. We are equally capable as athletes, and we need to kind of announce our winner in the same way that we do the men and give that same media coverage. And especially for the elite athletes, unless you have that equal media coverage, you can't get the same sponsorship deals as brands. And we're not truly growing kind of the female elite side of our sport. You focused on triathlons. I was just wondering why that specifically, as I was thinking about it this morning, an 8-4, 8-4-4,

if you want to get in touch on what your experience has been as an endurance competitor in mixed sex races particularly. Why, for example, is that particular environment the one you decided to focus on? And is it different to, I don't know, marathon running,

mountain biking, extra long trails, etc.? I think it is in that way. I think we've really understood women in running. That's my background. I run ultra marathons. I know it inside out. We've spoken to thousands of women over the years. But triathlons, it's a multi-sport, it's multi-discipline sport. And you're changing between the bikes and there's more kit involved. And we know that some women are nervous about kind of being able to fix their bike on the course when their hands

get so cold that you can't do anything and where the toilets will be, where the course is going to be, is it going to be traffic? It's that much more complicated that we really wanted to understand it is difficult. It's a challenge. That's the the nature of it but are there things that events can do really simply to get more women on those start lines and give us that great experience and some of them are so simple like putting period products in the toilets there are no pockets in these tri-suits to put your tampon so i'm also thinking and i can see some of the logistical stuff may be easier to implement in a way you tell me but some of the stuff I was reading in your report is about verbal abuse or commenting on for example clothing

ability even race marshals you mention I want to know how you think you change that mindset so we've been working with a company called Aria Events, who run the Dragons Back Race in Wales. And this year, they put in really good female safeguarding policies. And they had lots of events. And it's about briefing athletes and volunteers before the race starts about what acceptable behavior is. But it's also empowering women to speak up. And they had four or five incidents raised this year. And they've never had incidents raised before. And they said, it's not because these incidents haven't happened. It's because women haven't felt empowered to say, actually, that's not okay. And athletes and volunteers haven't thought about what the behavior should be. We shouldn't be making

inappropriate comments. We should be encouraging every athlete equally. We shouldn't be pushing, shoving and physical harassment. And I think a lot of it is empowering women and knowing that when women speak up, we will be listened to by the race directors. A lot of our survey comments were, I made this complaint and I was ignored. And that woman's not going to get back on the start line of a triathlon. They've come out the sport

and we want to encourage more women into the sport. So it's creating those boundaries and having these policies say, this is what was expected of you on the start line. And to tell women, you can actually say that something's wrong and we will listen to you. A couple of comments coming in.

One, women in triathlons, they always set women off at the back, meaning those close to a cutoff. They risk not finishing compared to the same for slower men starting earlier. You're nodding your head there, Sophie. I wonder what you think of this one from Sally.

I've run many, many marathons, half marathons, ultras, both on road and off road, in daylight, in the dark. I'm not an elite runner. I'm a happy little club runner. I have never experienced any harassment or belittling by any of my fellow competitors

of either sex. I've only experienced camaraderie and support can i suggest that these women stop being so sensitive strap on their trainers and just get on with it well we found we found that only three percent of women in our survey of 900 triathletes found that they hadn't been put off a race or they hadn't experienced anything on a race we know that our sport's wonderful and I think we want to be really positive about triathlons and about ultramarathons. They're amazing experiences,

but we found that these things do exist and we want to make sure that they don't happen to any other women or we establish what the right behaviour actually is. Another. This year I had abuse from another participant who had finished a run and her partner who made

snide comments about my run as I started out after the bike people need to build people up not tear them down I think I think that's absolutely right I think it's there's so much joy in racing together and there's so much joy in supporting each other and I think it's just establishing what people should be doing on those behaviours. You know, for most of us, this isn't our job. This is something we're doing to challenge ourselves. We're not going to be getting the prize money. So if we can all be supportive of each other, you know, more women and more men can enjoy the sport.

Another, this is Alison in Edinburgh. Amazing hearing Sophie on your show. I've raced triathlons where I've been changing in the open air in a car park or on a beach where there was no screening, basically having to strip down and change in the same area as men, even a changing gazebo or a marquee would have been nice. No, absolutely. And I think this is where the women that are doing the triathlons have climbed these barriers. And this is normalised that you'll have this change in open air environments. When we think about women, we want to attract the sport,

specifically women who don't feel confident to change in public. And we've about women, we want to attract the sport, specifically women who don't feel confident to change in public. And we've done a lot of work with the Muslim community on how do we get them onto start lines? We need changing facilities. The women that are there already have done it, but we can make their experience even better. Before I let you go, just your thoughts on women-only races. Some people might bring that up as a solution. Absolutely. And we've just done a big piece of research on women-only races. Some people might bring that up as a solution. Absolutely. And we've just done a big piece of research on women-only races and found that 87% of women actually want that opportunity. Some women can't join a start line without it, specifically as some communities and some victims of domestic violence would not feel comfortable.

But there is a joy to racing with more women i've done a women only ultra marathon we're actually going to launch a trail series of women only races to give more people the joy of doing that and giving us that confidence to try something for the first time where we can truly let our guard down and have that different environment mixed races will still be the majority but giving women that option experience, that then gives us the confidence to take on others, I think that's something we deserve and the industry should provide for us.

Sophie Power, thanks for coming on Woman's Hour. She is the founder of She Races, a not-for-profit organisation aimed at getting more women on the start line. Keep your comments coming even. 84844.

I'd love to hear your stories. Now, to a prostitute's caution, as it's known. It is handed out by police to suspected sex workers and it is having a devastating effect on women and preventing them from moving on to other types

of employment, according to a report that is out from the English Collective of Prostitutes. Their campaign is to see the prostitute's caution abolished and being backed by politicians. The cautions are given for, I quote,

persistently loitering or soliciting in a street or public place for the purpose of offering services as a prostitute. They've been in place since 1959. They were amended recently as part of the 2009 Crime and Policing Act to remove the word common prostitute. Once given, they remain on record, the caution this is, for 100 years and no admission of guilt is needed or no appeal is possible. Let's talk about this. In my studio, we have Laura Watson, who's spokesperson for the English Collective of Prostitutes or ECP. Good morning. Good morning. And Labour MP for Nottingham East, Nadia Whittam. Welcome.

Hello. So let me begin with you, Laura. I mentioned decades old that these particular laws are. It isn't the first time you've raised the issue. Why is it so important to you and also to produce this latest report on it? Yes well there's a few reasons really but one of the reasons is we really wanted to let the public know about them on a sort of bigger scale and to make sure that people knew the impact of it that they are you know given out basically by police discretion but have a lifelong impact and can um push uh women into

impoverishment um it's you know not reporting uh crimes to the police um not being able to get other jobs well let's talk about the why of that so somebody has or hasn't whatever the the police officers decided to give them a prostitute's caution, as it's called. You've been speaking to women about the impact of them. How does it manifest itself day to day? So a woman in our group who was interviewed for the report, she has a child with a disability. She was actually offered a job in her local community with working with children with disabilities and she didn't even want to apply for the job because she was

so terrified that the local community would find out about her prostitute caution and the impact that that would have on her and her son and the possible discrimination she might face, you know, being outed in your community and you just don't know the impact. And so she wouldn't even apply for it. And we really want to also let people know that, you know, this is mothers working to feed themselves and their children and are punished for life. As you said, it's on your record till you're 100 years old just for trying to make a better life for yourself and your child where you have very little

or no other options so that's that's really why we want to let people know about it. Nadia I mentioned you're a Labour MP for Nottingham East. Why is this something that you are concerned about? Well, I represent constituents who are sex workers. The same is true of every single MP. And it's important that we are listening to sex workers and their experiences when we're making policy to make them safer or to put them in even more danger as the current laws do. We have the current situation is that the state pushes people into poverty. Poverty, we know, is the main driver behind sex work. Then the state criminalises sex workers, further trapping them. So what we're saying, what sex worker led organisations are saying is we need anti-poverty measures so that fewer people feel

that their best option from a limited choice is sex work but perhaps if they were in better circumstances and different circumstances they might not choose that and we need full decriminalisation of sex work because we know that that is what is proven to keep women safer it's not about glorying this glorifying the sex industry it's not even about sex positivity that's a completely different conversation it's about protecting people vast majority women instead of punishing them um and that is proven in new zealand to be effective there's a lot there that has been laid out, Nadia. So let's go through some of it. And of course, some people will disagree vehemently with the decriminalisation,

for example, of sex work. But just to one of your first points there, you say that the ability for somebody to receive a prostitute's caution could put them in more danger. Why? Absolutely. It traps them in more danger. Why? Absolutely. It traps people in sex work.

Because they can't get another job? Exactly. Or they might already have another job and be doing sex work as a temporary measure or a second job and then lose their existing work because of a prostitute's caution. It means that any job where an enhanced EBS check is required, like being a childminder, for example, they would be barred from doing.

It also discourages sex workers from reporting crimes towards them because they're labelled as criminals, they fear discrimination and being disbelieved by the criminal justice system. But looking at the statistics from the Metropolitan Police requested by the London Assembly, this shows that in 2022, this is London, a total of 79 of these cautions were handed out, dropping to 45 in 2023. It doesn't seem like a huge number and it appears to be, just on those stats, a declining number. And I'm just wondering, could that perhaps mean that in a few years time, this is just not something that needs to be worried about? I'm glad that it's a declining number but that is 45 people too many and this is

just one of the many criminalisation measures that puts sex workers, vast majority of women, in danger. Another one for example, if you work with somebody for safety, that's brothel keeping, you'll be criminalised. Sorry, repeat that again, I didn't totally get it. If you work with somebody? If two sex workers work together in a flat for safety, not only could they be evicted, but that's brothel keeping. So they're criminalised for that under current legislation. It also means if you work in a brothel and you're assaulted, if you report that to the police, your workplace could be shut down. Then what are you going to do? Back to you again, Laura.

I mean, how much was this at the forefront of the women's minds that you were speaking to? Oh, it was very much. I mean, women, we interviewed women in our group who also then interviewed their friends and work colleagues. So it was really a peer to peer research project that we did. And women were really glad to be asked about it because nobody ever asked you about it. And often women are so can't tell anybody that they are in prostitution or, you know, don't want anybody to know that we're the only ones that they can talk to at all. And so women are glad to be able to speak about the experience and the injustice that has happened across their lives because the other things that came up in the report,

as well as has been said about the not being able to leave prostitution and also, as Nadia said, not being able to report violence, was women had all kinds of implications in their lives. So, for example, not being able to get housing. It could come up in that respect. It could come up in their lives. So for example, not being able to get housing. It could come up in that respect. It could come up in that respect. Women were worried to be able to complain about their current housing if they needed to or move house or apply for a house or whatever it was. And because if the landlord had on their paperwork, do you have a criminal record? So

it has a big impact. It also comes up in child custody cases where women are much more having to um be on the back foot if somebody is threatening them withouting them as a sex worker which is a very very common thing we see um immigration it was a big thing um again women who were labeled persistent offenders so-called for loitering and soliciting were facing deportation and all kinds of things like travel you know not being able to travel to certain places I mean the impact is very wide and is very deep. So, yeah, and completely, completely unjust and brands you a criminal. As you say, just on the police deciding

that you're a sex worker, essentially, we've actually fought cases of women who weren't actually sex workers and have got prostitute cautions on their criminal records. So, yeah, very draconian and different from other police cautions, as you said at the beginning. I do want to read a statement that we got from the Deputy Chief Constable Dan Vajkovic, who is National Police Chiefs Council lead for sex work. He says, our priority is always to improve the safety of those working in the sex industry and

to tackle those who commit crimes against them, including criminal exploitation. In this context, the use of these cautions has now dropped to such an extent that they are hardly ever used as we recognise the detrimental impact they can have. It is not for the police to remove offences from the statute book, but should the legislation change,

policing would support and contribute any evidence review. Back to you, Nadia. I mean, why do you think the law hasn't been abolished before now? We are now in a Labour government. I think that lots of people come at this from an ideological standpoint, which I think is often well-meaning, but it doesn't prioritise the safety of women. So on full decriminalisation, this is

a harm reduction measure supported by the World Health Organisation, the UN Working Group on Discrimination Against Women and Girls, UNAIDS, the Royal College of Nursing, Amnesty International, where there are some pushes for sex workers to be decriminalised and buyers to be criminalised. Yes, so it wouldn't be a complete... In practice, it doesn't work and is actually a regressive measure from the current law. And you've mentioned other organisations there,

but I am asking specifically about your party, about, and that is in power at the moment, the Labour government. Do you believe that they will, one, abolish the prostitutes' caution, which we're here speaking about specifically, and then secondly, whether there is any political will to decriminalise sex work as you would like them to do? I'm a backbencher, so I obviously can't speak on behalf of the frontbench.

No, I'm more asking for your opinion. But if this Labour government cares about protecting women which I know they do then they will at the very least stop prostitutes cautions expunge them from people's records and take further decriminalization measures like repealing brothel keeping laws. But to truly keep women safe, we need full decriminalisation. Evidence where the Nordic model, which is the model that some people in the Labour Party favour, evidence from where that has been implemented in France, in Northern Ireland, is that it's worsened violence, worsened stigma, worsened poverty and health outcomes. And let's bring it back again specifically with the UK. Have you spoken to the front bench? Are they open or listening to you? I believe that the front bench is committed to introducing a definition of adult sexual exploitation

that would include commercial sexual exploitation, which is a step towards an audit model, and if it happened, would be incredibly damaging. Just give me one more line on that so I can understand completely what you mean by that. If we define all prostitution or sex work as commercial sexual exploitation, that means that it's criminalised, which puts women in even more danger. So you feel you're at odds with your party?

I hope not. I hope the party does the right thing to protect women. Thank you very much both for coming into studio. Laura Watson, spokesperson for the English Collective of Prostitutes, ECP, and Labour MP for Nottingham East, Nadia Whittam. Thank you both. Thank you.

Lots of getting in touch about our endurance athletes. We have many of them in our audience. Here's Liz. As a female Ironman competing against men, the guys often feel intimidated and act as such, belittling, calling names, asking what distances we race at. It's the same as them.

In a sea swim, I was swum over by two men swimming side by side in a race, which was really dangerous as the conditions were poor and the sea was rough. Thanks for covering this topic. Another. Hello, Woman hello woman's hour hello sarah she's in pool i love i rode across the atlantic ocean wow as part of a women's team in a race with male and female rowers it took us 55 days we spent two weeks with the other teams before the start of the race the atmosphere was one of mutual respect for all rowers 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, have you heard, have you read

about Romantasy? Where romance meets fantasy. It is a genre captivating readers around the world. One of its rising stars is the author Imani Eriu. Her Heavenly Bodies trilogy has taken off on TikTok, BookTok, the social media platform where users share short videos, try saying that quickly,

including book reviews and recommendations. With over 85.6 thousand followers and millions of views, her stories have struck a chord, especially with young female audiences. Well, she joins me now to talk about all things romanticy. Welcome to Women's Hour. Hi, thank you so much for having me.

You know, we were planning on speaking to you today and then I saw a headline in today's newspaper that says how middle-class women, middle-class women in the news a lot recently, how middle-class women became obsessed with fairy porn. But the top audio book of 2024 was a racy, romantic novel about sexy fairies. I imagine you're familiar with this world. I definitely am. I'm the term too. I've heard it a lot.

So what is it? And I don't know, does Heavenly Bodies go as far as fairy porn? It's not fairy porn, no, but I will say that there's a little bit of spice and smut in there. You know, because I have started your book, but I haven't finished it. And I was wondering, maybe it got spicier as I went along, maybe to the level of fairy porn. But your first book in the trilogy is about a young woman called Alara, who's running from her fate after being cursed by cruel gods. Would you mind reading a little bit for us and then we'll begin to get the sense of it and talk a little bit more about it? Of course, I would love to. So this is the excerpt that I picked and it's right as she enters her enemy kingdom. It was then that her attention was taken by the figure in the throne beside the king,

who had leaned forwards as she spoke, his chin now resting indolently on his hand. She felt a dull thump as she locked eyes with him. His skin was darker than the king's, a golden shade of brown. His jaw cut into his face and the hard planes of it were accentuated with black brows and black curls that fell across his forehead. A small hoop in his ear glowed in the helium rays casting through the stained glass windows, but it was his eyes that made her paws. They were gold also, but the liquid gold of the water falls outside. They glinted like the crown he wore tipped on his head, and they looked at her like she was prey. Ilara realized with a start who she was staring at. He gave a slow, hungry grin as he saw the understanding dawn in her eyes. Prince Lorenzo, the Lion of Helios. Totally takes us there. And we see the colours and some of the romance

and obviously this fantastical world. But how would you define Romanticy? I would say that Romanticy is exactly as you put it, where romance meets fantasy in this perfect blend. I think I'm so happy that it's having its moment right now because I think sometimes romance can be not taken seriously within the literary world or not put with some of the heavyweights and it's actually really difficult to craft a romance tale. The balance between keeping the romance going and making people invested within the characters and their story as well as building and creating this entire fantastical world,

is something really difficult rather than just writing a romance or just writing a fantasy. So my definition would be a really beautifully character-driven story with a fantastical world that's being created around it. I'm looking at you on a screen, Amani, and you are surrounded by purple crystals, just to give people a sense of what I'm looking at you on a screen, Amani, and you are surrounded by purple crystals just to give people a sense of what I'm looking at. So I have a feeling that this is just a perfect match for you when it comes to perhaps the personal and then becoming your public persona as an author. It absolutely is. Funnily enough, where I am is in my crystal shop uh the honeymoon apothecary and it's such a meeting of worlds because this is where I worked first before I became an author and it truly is I feel like worlds have collided with all of my crystals around me and then being able to write these fantastical worlds which definitely have these

beautiful items in it and yes it is, it's all merged together perfectly. How do you understand the appeal of it? So, for example, Heavenly Bodies, it is a trilogy. But when you do a reading, for example, doing in-person events, people are crying at them. They feel so connected to you and these books and these characters. For example, Alara that we meet, a very strong and complex woman who is your protagonist. How do you understand it? I find it, I mean, it's such a privilege that readers can feel that just from the words that I write. And I think that any author would say that is all they want when they write their book, to find even one reader who may connect with the tale. So for me,

it was definitely surreal at these events, seeing my readers in person be so emotional, but it was just so lovely as well, and getting to greet them and speak with them. I think one thing within my story particularly, there's such a healing journey that Ilara our protagonist goes on and I think for a lot of readers it might feel really cathartic to them which is probably why they then get emotional at these events sort of maybe seeing the author that's created this book that they feel so much about and some of my favorite authors I know that I would be the same way probably if I met them in person and was able to see the person behind a story that means so much to me. I think also with them she's a young woman she's getting harassed and pushed around without any spoilers at the beginning of the book and she has a power

within her that she's able to push back and attack these bigger, stronger men that are basically trying to violate her. And I suppose that could be a fantasy for many young women. Yes, definitely. I think that that beginning chapter was really important to me because this event takes place right at the start of the book to really show Ilaria's strength but that how it might be a strength different to what other people would associate you know physically

she would not be able to overpower these people so she uses this magic within her these powers to then be able to gain the upper hand and really show what she's made of. I mentioned TikTok also that you I didn't mention but your first two books were self-published. And I wonder just about your journey as an author. You are a young woman. It's not what would have been the traditional route. How has it been? And what can you tell us about what it's been like to be on that crazy roller coaster with more ups than downs? It's truly been amazing. Every single second, I feel ironically has almost been fated, which is what so much of my book is about.

Just because the way everything unfolded just was such a smooth journey, even from being an indie author and the tradition to becoming, sorry, the transition to becoming traditionally published, I found just the smoothest transition um as an indie author is so wonderful because I had complete autonomy over everything and control over every single part of the process and I think that was my one fear when taking this traditional deal might be giving some of that up but I can truly say my team have been so incredible at just making a real collaborative effort so it's just been surreal I had always said that my dream was to see my book in a bookshop because as an indie author it was mainly through Amazon that you could distribute

you couldn't really get into bookshops so these last few weeks have just been truly an absolute dream. But how do you understand that before you've even finished your draft, that they were ready to take it on to publish, etc. And also, I believe, your audience was then influencing how you finished your draft. Tell us about that. So it was so amazing, because to go back to to TikTok and the kind of marketing of the book, that's where it all started. So as you said, I hadn't even finished my first draft of Heavenly Bodies, the indie version. And I thought, let me just post a video and see what's going on on TikTok.

And then... And you posted, forgive me for stepping in, but you posted telling your audience about what it would be like or reading a bit. What did you do? Exactly. So I actually went down the route of marketing the tropes within the book. I noticed on TikTok a lot of people really know what they like. So with a book, if there's a certain trope, whether it be enemies to lovers or fated love or something like that, then they will pick up the and I'm the same if I know that a book has a trope I love in I'll pick it up straight away so I remember that I posted the video just with a little bit of information about the plot that I knew I was creating and I got a lot of questions about it and a lot of comments and then

I posted my second video which was actually about Enzo. And it was a specific quote, he says. That's a prince. Yeah, that's the prince, the love interest. And right from there, it starts getting hundreds of views, then thousands, then hundreds of thousands and millions. And it went completely viral. And I, like I said, I hadn't finished the draft, but I just thought to myself, oh my gosh, I need to finish this book because people are waiting. So then towards the end, it was so lovely because it was like I was having a direct conversation with the reader. So although I always wanted, I always said I would write the book for myself first and what I loved, it was so amazing to almost have that reader input and really pick up on what they might like as well.

So interesting. We used to have these books that, like when I was a child, that you could pick your own ending. It's kind of reminded me of that. But like, you know, the social media viral version. Imani Aereo, thank you so much for joining us. Her trilogy is the Heavenly Bodies trilogy. You've heard, if you're on TikTok, you probably already have met Imani, but I very much am enjoying it.

Thank you so much, Imani, for joining us on Women's Hour. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Now, lots of you getting in touch on running. I've run many races from park run to ultra trail over the past 18 years. I'm 60, no elite athlete,

but I've never had anything but camaraderie and encouragement from other athletes and marshals. My worst complaint is when marshals don't cheer you on. Please, if you're bothering to volunteer to marshal, please encourage the athletes. They deserve it. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now, if you were with us last week on Women's Hour, you'll know we spoke to the BBC's diplomatic correspondent, Caroline Hawley, about the Taliban reportedly banning women and girls from medical institutions for their training for education.

The Taliban themselves have yet to issue an official decree. A source for the Ministry of Health, who is close to the minister, has confirmed the decision to the BBC's Afghan service. Until now, medical training was the only remaining option for further education that was available to women in Afghanistan. Afghanistan, you may know, has one of the highest rates of maternal deaths in the world. One woman dies every hour due to pregnancy, making trained midwives even more vital. Well, in studio joining me is Bahar Joya. She is Afghan women's affairs journalist and also an NHS nurse. She's been working to help train nurses in Afghanistan and has been in touch

with several of them in relation to this story. Welcome to the studio, Bahar. Take us back to the beginning of December when reports of this change started to come in. Thanks, Nuala, for having me. This means a lot to thousands of nurses inside Afghanistan that I am in constant touch with them since past Monday. So last Monday, I received tons of messages on my WhatsApp from this Afghan woman nurses and midwives that we have in a group that we on on monthly basis, we used to talk about different kind of nursing skills within Afghanistan nurses and also whatever I learned in the UK based the training we received in the UK. And it was really, really devastating because I heard people are crying, cursing, being very hopeless about the Taliban. Morality police rushed to different institutes in all different provinces in Afghanistan

and basically, practically throw away all these students from the classes. Some of these students were third year students, midwife and nurses, some of them second year or first years. And they were actually preparing for their final exam. And there was no explanation given to them.

They just say that you immediately pack your stuff and leave the class. At the institute, wherever they were training, it was closed and that's it. That's it. Has there been any explanation given by the Taliban thus far?

Actually, some of these brave women stand up and talk to these morality police and the Taliban officials within their institutes on the first days when they rushed into institutes. It was like surrounding the whole institute like criminals. These women were helpless, not armed, not criminals, but they came with guns and they surrounded all the institute and asked them to leave immediately, like they did something wrong. So some of these girls stand up and ask them why we should leave our classes and what is our crime.

And they say that because you're not wearing proper hijab. And all of these women are not only wearing a proper hijab, they're wearing masks within their classes even. I have all the pictures and videos of the moment they're leaving the classes. And no explanation was given. Apart from this one, the discussion was going on among the Taliban leaders and among the Taliban morality police in the past few months about women are getting out of the houses and going away. And they will stop some of these

women on the streets of Kabul, Mazar-e-Sharif, and Herat, and other provinces, and they've been beaten by the Taliban. They were asked, where are you going? And these women replied that I'm going to my job. I'm a nurse or I'm a midwife. And then they realized that many women, they shut down all the other doors for women, schools, jobs, universities. They find another way to get out of the house, to find a job, to have a career, to help their families. So they put a stop on that. And with this, so it could be a nurse, could be a midwife, could be a dental assistant, could be some of these medical roles. But when it comes to midwives in particular, I mean, has the Taliban talked about what provision there will be for pregnant women if, in fact, they're stopping new midwives coming into the country, really coming into the system?

Yesterday, I was talking with Zabirullah Mujahid, Taliban's spokesperson, and I asked him about this decision, which has made an impact of that on women's health in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan is already in a very fragile condition regarding women's health. We have the highest mortality rate among women around the world. More than 600 women are dying from every 100,000 women during birth, childbirth. And when I asked the impact of that, he said that this is a decision that's made by our leaders. It's coming from top leadership of the Taliban. And we have enough nurses and midwives that can cover the whole country, which I challenged him.

And I said that as per the recent data by the World Health Organization, Afghanistan has, in 2005, in Afghanistan, there was four, yeah, less than five nurse, midwife and doctors all included together for every 10,000 Afghan. Right now, this is below than five. So we are suffering. We are already in shortage of 18,000 healthcare professional, which is lower than the threshold we call it critical shortage. And his explanation was very ridiculous. He said that we believe in God and that can help us.

And also we have to use all other alternative ways to treat our women. Afghanistan is a traditional country bound to many cultural practices. If you ban women to get help from male healthcare profession, so what would be the result for that? And you ban women from getting training in healthcare profession. So women will not have access to healthcare. To any professional. The result will be devastating in a long term period

and more women will die and we will have a highest mortality rate in Afghanistan. Because I was going to ask you, but I think you've answered the question, that, you know, can men be midwives? Are they training to be midwives? From my understanding,

I lived in Afghanistan and I am from Afghanistan. I never seen in my life a male midwife. That's against all the cultural values of that country. So we don't have even male nurses properly that can assess and help women. There is very limited amount of male nurses that they are working in hospital sitting area and mostly women are avoiding to see them, not by the rule only, even before the Taliban. The families

were not allowing their women to be seen by a male nurse. This is the latest in so many steps against women in Afghanistan. There have been, of course, criticisms of the international community that they haven't exerted enough pressure, of course, criticisms of the international community that they haven't exerted enough pressure,

for example, or at times giving too much recognition to the Taliban. Has anything changed in that respect, do you feel? Or does even this latest development change anything? I don't think so.

I don't believe that. So many of these women that I'm talking to them are frustrated and angry to not because what Taliban is doing to them, it's because of what the world is doing with them. Seeing that the whole country being in prison in the hand of a terrorist group, which is called Taliban. International community fought this group for 20 years. And after 20 years, give the whole country to them with the whole control and no accountability is there. They're paying the Taliban to govern this country, but there's no accountability. So the anger which is coming from Afghan women

and from me is that we should keep them accountable. The taxpayers from all the Swiss countries, they are paying their tax. They should ask their governments who they are paying to. That's interesting. So you're taking it down to grassroots level to the people who are, for example, listening to this programme or that you are speaking to to think about it.

Bahar Joya, thank you very much for coming in. Afghan women's affairs journalist and also an NHS nurse just did a very long shift as well. So thank you very much in the ICU coming in to speak to us as well. More messages on athletes. When my chain was completely tangled up, stopping me in my bike ride in the middle of nowhere, every single woman cycling stopped by to ask if I was OK and could they help. Every single man cycled by feeling a bit guilty, shouted over their shoulder, oh, are you OK? And cycled on. That's Jane in Cornwall. Also, we have Victoria on email. I did a triathlon on day two, the heaviest day of my period. I knew there was no way I would get around it

with one tampon. After the swim in the transition area, I changed my swimsuit for period pants under a towel in transition one. That would have kept me safe for the bike and the run. A marshal came over and threatened to disqualify me for getting naked in the transition area. I said I was on my period and

needed to put dry period pants on. He said it was a warning for next time. Great advice and cause being shared by Sophie. That's Sophie that was on a little bit earlier. Now, I want to let you know that Anita and I are going to be presenting the Women's Hour Christmas Day special together. It is the season of comfort and joy.

So we want to talk about comfort, which many of us crave at this time of year. Why we create a safe comfort zone around us. Also what it means to push ourselves out of that. Yeah. Have you forced yourself out of your comfort zone this year? Year even. And if so how?

And where has it taken you? We are keen to have your stories as part of the programme. Get in touch all the usual ways at BBC Women's Hour. Also tomorrow, Anita will be taking a step back to the 1980s to look at what fertility treatment was available then and talk to one of the first women to donate her eggs. It's all coming up tomorrow at 10 on Woman's Hour.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The Wreath Lectures 2024, hosted by me, Anita Arnand. Join us again next time. psychiatrist Dr Gwen Adshead. By listening to perpetrators we can learn more about the genesis of violence and perhaps particularly where we might be able to intervene to reduce the risk of violence happening in the future. The Reith Lectures from BBC Radio 4. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig,

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.