Woman's Hour - Women voters in Makerfield, Scotland cricketers, Peptides, Sex work book

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Tomorrow a by-election will be held in the parliamentary seat of Makerfield in Wigan, one of three taking place. Makerfield has found itself at the epicentre of British politics - and the result could decide the next prime minister. We look at what the polls are saying about the way women in the area are saying they will vote and what is impacting that decision. Nuala McGovern is joined by BBC’s political correspondent Alex Forsyth. Scotland are one of the home nations, alongside England and Ireland, hosting the Women’s T20 Cricket World Cup currently taking place here. The Scots got their campaign underway last Saturday against Ireland with an historic win. Nuala is joined by the CEO of Cricket Scotland, Trudy Lindblade and by one of their team, all-rounder, Priyanaz Chatterji to talk about the growth of the women’s game in Scotland and what this tournament means for the future of the game. Peptides have become a new buzzword in the wellness industry. Social media influencers have spoken about using them for optimising performance in the gym and improving their appearance, and they’re increasingly popular with women. But some unregulated peptides haven’t been through clinical trials and could be ineffective, or even harmful. Nuala is joined by BBC Health reporter Ruth Clegg, who has been looking into the way women are using peptides, and Adam Taylor, Professor of Anatomy at the University of Lancaster. Global Sex: What Sex Workers Know about Love and Capitalism is the title of a new book by the Danish anthropologist Sine Plambech. Sine Plambech is an internationally renowned expert on sex work, migration and human trafficking. Sine Plambech joins Nuala to tell us about her book and how she has dedicated her life to pursuing the trail of money and sex across the globe, while introducing us to four women from Thailand and Nigeria at the heart of her research.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Simon Richardson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture, and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand out.

The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, and welcome to the program. A by-election in Makerfield, as you've been hearing in the news bulletin, that could decide political futures. But how are the leading candidates trying to appeal to women voters? We're going to speak to our political correspondent, Alex Forsyte, in just a moment.

Also today, the anthropologist who spent decades following sex workers around the globe to learn more about their lives, their hopes and their dreams. We'll hear from Sina Plenbeck this hour. We'll also look at the surge of interest in, in peptides. What are they? Are they safe? Is there evidence to back up the hype?

Or are they just another fad on your social media feed? We'll discuss all that. Plus, never underestimate the underdog. Scotland made history by securing their first ever T20 World Cup victory against Ireland. We're going to hear from their CEO of Cricket Scotland. That's Trudy Lynn Blade and also the Scottish All-Rounder, Priyannaz Chatterjee, as they prepare for tomorrow's game against the West Indies. And rarely the underdogs.

Sister Serena and Venus Williams will reunite, playing doubles at Wimbledon after receiving a wild card to participate. They are, as you may know, one of the most successful doubles pairings winning 14 grand slam titles together, so many achievements. But what an experience it must be to go through with your sister. And this morning, it doesn't have to be the opportunity. for echelons elite sport, for example.

But what have you done with your sister that was significant for you? I remember travelling for a few weeks when I was 15 across France with my sister, and I think it ignited a lifelong wanderlust, but I'm wondering about you. Is there something you do or have done with your sister that you'd like to share with us this morning? You can text the programme. The number is 844-on-on-social. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number to use is 0-3-700-100-144. But let me begin with a by-election. You will no doubt be aware. There are three seats, actually, up for grabs in the House of Commons tomorrow. Makerfield in Greater Manchester, Aberdeen South in the northeast of Scotland,

and Arbroath and Broughty Ferry in eastern Scotland. The by-election attracting the most attention, I think it's fair to say, is the one in Makerfield that could decide the next Prime Minister. There is a full list of candidates for all three by-elections on the BBC website right now.

But let me bring in the BBC's political correspondent Alex Forsyth, joining me from Makerfield to talk about women and the campaign. Good to have you with us, Alex. First off, what is it like up there? We know the country is paying attention to this by-election. Yeah, good morning, Neula. I mean, the country's paying attention to this by-election,

and if you live in this constituency, there is no way you could have escaped it. I mean, I've covered a fair few by-elections and elections in my time, but this one really is quite extraordinary. As soon as you get into the constituency, you see placards on polls outside people's houses and posters in the window declaring who they're going to support for. I was out in Ashton in Makerville, which is one of the towns that makes up this constituency yesterday. And honestly, at times it felt like I bumped into more journalists than I did local people, everyone trying to grab a sense of what people are voting on, what the factors here are at play.

So there is a real feeling among the people who live here that they are conscious that the consequences of the choice they make in this by-election could stretch far beyond this constituency. Well, I am another journalist also trying to find out about the factors at play, Alex. And in particular for Women's Hour, I would like to know about any issues you're hearing that women voters are saying are important to them. I think one of the things that comes up with the people I've spoken to, with the people that colleagues have spoken to over the course of the last few weeks is the cost of living. I mean, that is a common theme that isn't specific to this by-election, but it is really pertinent. People noticing, of course, that prices are rising and the impact that is having on households. Another big one here, I would say, is immigration.

That's featured pretty heavily in this by-election campaign. And then it's things like, you know, the state of the high street, this sense of place, the local facilities and public services, GP surgeries, housing, flooding for some communities. It is those kind of things. And the sense really that currently there's all of this attention on the towns that make up this constituency. But some people here saying that actually they felt quite forgotten and overlooked for some time. And they're hoping that once the by-election circus departs, some of the promises, pledges and attention lead to some improvements in the facilities, the area that they live in, really. What are the consistent? What are the consistent?

constituency polls suggesting in regard to who may be among the leading candidates? I mean, there's always has to be a healthy dose of caution when it comes to any kind of polling, but particularly in constituency polls, because often the sample sizes are pretty small. At the moment, most of the constituency polls suggest that Andy Burnham might just be edging it, but a lot of those are within the margin of error. And when you speak to people here, what you are hearing is that this is fiercely competitive. I mean, I've seen the campuses out on the streets over the course of the last couple of days, shoving the leaflets through letter boxes and trying to scoop up the last votes.

And all of the parties are saying that this is going to be close and it is competitive. And we should remember, there are actually 14 candidates standing in this by-election. So while there's, yeah, I mean, there's inevitably a focus on who are perceived to be the front-runners. But there are 14 across the board. So it's going to be interesting to see how the vote splits where it all lands. It does feel like it is a hotly contested by-election. potentially quite a tight race. And absolutely we must always be cautious of reading too much into any one poll.

But speaking to people or with polling, are there any noticeable differences between the way men or women may vote? I think you get the sense that obviously, as it is with any by-election campaign, really, there's a dose of policy, there's a dose of personality. So, you know, that's going to determine how people vote what the parties are talking about, the specific issues that they choose to focus on, whether that resonates. with women, whether it resonates with men, and then perhaps also where the parties are targeting their messages, because of course there's the ground game, like I mentioned, the people knocking

on doors. And then there's a heavy social media game in this by-election as well. And social media does allow some targeting of messages to specific groups of voters. So that's all going to have to come into play when it comes to people determining their final choices. Let me turn to reform for a moment. A few weeks ago, a list of sexist comments were published that Robert Kenyon, reforms candidate was alleged to have made on social media some time ago. Do we know what impact if any, they had? It has come up. It has come up repeatedly. He, Robert Kenyon, reforms candidate, has been asked about it repeatedly. Other candidates in this by-election campaign have been bringing it up. So Sarah Wakefield, who is the Green Party candidate standing here. She raised it when there

was a debate between some candidates on the BBC's question time. Now, Robert Kenyon, himself, what he said about this because the accusation that's been put to him firmly and repeatedly is that these comments that he made were sexist, among other things. Now, what he's said is that these comments were made before he was a politician. He's acknowledged, some of them were crass. He's claimed some of them were taken out of context. He said he isn't sexist. He has respect for women.

But interestingly, there hasn't been a direct apology. Nigel Farage was in the constituency last week, and he was again talking about this. And he was sort of unapologetic about it. and they're trying to frame their candidate as a local plumber, not a career politician, and claim that these comments were made before he entered into politics. But he has been repeatedly asked about it. And actually, people, when you speak to people in the constituency, they are aware of it as well.

Now, whether they say they think that these are going to change the way they vote, that this has changed their opinion of Robert Kenyon, or whether they think this has been, you know, somewhat overblown and given too much attention, whatever people's view of it, it feels like it could well be a factor in the campaign. Interesting. Last week, the Telegraph reported that Restore Britain, so that is the party that was created by Great Yarmouth MP Rupert Lowe in February, after he left Reform UK,

that they are gaining ground on reform by trying to appeal directly to women. Rebecca Shepard is their candidate. What is her main message to female voters? And I'm wondering if she is gaining traction or, I suppose, does she have that stickiness that we sometimes talk about within policy? politics. And this is such an interesting factor in this specific by-election campaign. Restore Britain, as you say, the party that was formed by Rupert Lowe, the former Reform MP. They have had a sort of quite heavy social media presence. But here on the ground, there are also a big leaflet campaign. I've seen their canvases out and about, and there are a few houses with the placards outside. So they clearly have a presence. Now, their candidate, Rebecca Shepard, what she's saying is that she is a local businesswoman. This is a party with a hard. stance on immigration. She's talking about things like street safety and how this party performs in this by-election could be utterly fascinating because it could give us a real insight into what was

happening on the right of British politics. Now it's worth saying that, you know, I have asked to restore for an interview with their candidate over the course of the last few days. I haven't heard back yet. But clearly that is a really key and interesting factor in this by-election. Let me turn to Labour's Andy Burnham. He promised compensation to the Washington. He promised compensation to the waspy women, as they're called. Women born in the 1950s, affected by changes to the state pension aid age. And he seemed to then row back on that. Has that had an impact? Yeah, interesting, because he was reported to have told by-election hustings events, so when the candidates get together and kind of debate in front of an audience, that he would

stick by the waspy women because they deserve some recompense for the unfairness. And then we had a sort of clarification from his team who told the financial times he didn't want to reopen the case for compensation. He accepted a final decision had been made about that. But they suggested what he was talking about were maybe other things that could help that generation of women that were affected by that change to the state pension age. So whether that's things like access to concessionary travel. I think what this shows us is one of the challenges there has been for Andy Burnham, because clearly the reason this by-election is so significant, is because he's made it clear that if he wins, and it is an if, that he would throw his hat

into the ring for any leadership challenge to Kirstarmer. So what he's been attempting, to do is a sort of dual pitch, a pitch on one hand to the people of Makerfield who are going to decide his immediate fate. And at the same time, he's trying to sort of cement his message to the country. And that's been a real theme of this campaign. Other main candidates in some of the parties, anything you see in them trying to appeal to women voters, I suppose, coming up these final hours. Yeah, the final hours, the final push. There are a lot of candidates.

But yeah, I mean, so we've heard from the green candidate, Sarah Wakefield. She's been trying to really land a message about kind of hope, better solutions. Michael Wynne Stanley, the conservative candidate, former mayor of Wiggin. He's really painting himself as a community champion, so really addressing some of those local issues that people are raising. Jake Austin, he's standing for the Liberal Democrats. A heavy focus of their campaign is that issue of the cost of living and saying the party has got a plan to try and address some of the daily.

challenges that households face. So they're all making their final pitch in this highly competitive race, all slightly different messages. But what is a theme is I think a lot of people are trying to say, look, we understand the needs of this constituency. And when all the focus does inevitably shift slightly away from Makerfield, then perhaps to what might happen in Westminster as a consequence that we are going to, you know, ensure that we are focusing on the issues that have really come up during this by-election campaign. Alex Forsy, thank you so much. again you can find a full list of candidates for all three by-elections on the BBC website.

Alex might want to power up on the chocolate and the coffee for the coming couple of days. Thanks so much to her. Thanks to your messages coming in. I was asking, was there any experience that you had with your sister that you wanted to share this morning that was significant for you?

Here's one. That says because Venus and Serena, you might have seen, they're playing doubles in Wimbledon, which would be a treat for tennis fans. This is one that says, I was at my sister's. I was my sister's birthing partner 21 years ago

and it's meant that I have an extra strong bond with my niece now. How lovely, 8444.844 if you'd like to get in touch, that is definitely something very significant. I want to talk about another exciting event. Woman's Hour is going to be at the Crossed Wire's Podcast Festival in Sheffield next month. We would love for you to join us. We're going to be at the Montgomery venue on the 3rd of 20th. July at 2pm for a special recording of our series, The Woman's Hour Guide to Life,

and free tickets are available for you to join us. You have to visit crossedwires.org-slash fringe, and then you'll see all the events and ours there too. Now, the dilemma our experts are going to tackle this time on the Guide to Life is public speaking. How do you feel about that? I know some of you might dread standing up in front of other people. some even at times turn down opportunities at work because it involves giving a presentation.

Maybe you've found yourself speaking so fast. You can barely catch your breath or your mind goes blank when all eyes are on you. We'd love to hear from you on your experiences about this whether or not you are coming to join us in Sheffield. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-400-444. We can then use some of your responses in the programme and it's crossedwires.live forward slash fringe if you would like to come and see us in person. I'm very much looking forward to that. Now, more messages coming in on the sisters. I'll get to them in a moment, 84844.

But I first want to turn to cricket because we continue our coverage of the T20 Women's World Cup that is underway in England. England. Scotland are one of the home nations along with England and Ireland that are taking part. Scotland got their campaign underway last Saturday against Ireland and making history by winning their first ever World Cup match. Let's talk about that success. Also, their hopes for the next match, which is tomorrow against the West Indies and also the rest of the tournament. Two great guests with us. CEO of Cricket Scotland, Trudy Lindblade. Hi, Trudy.

Morning, Noel. How are you? Very well. And Scottish all rounder. Pryanaz Chattery. Chatterjee, excuse me. Good to have you with us, Priyanaz. Thanks. Great to be here. Now, Priyana, you've just made history, I mentioned there. You've got Scotland's first ever women's T20 World Cup. I believe it was the fifth attempt. How does it feel?

Yeah, it was a very special day. I guess it's only our second World Cup appearance in terms of we qualified for the last one. I played four games, unfortunately, didn't manage to get any wins. So came into this tournament, very much wanting to try and get one, at least one, under our belt. So it was very, very pleasing that we managed to do that at the start of the tournament. And it was a really good game for us. We played very well. And it was a comprehensive win and even more special doing it, essentially in front of a home crowd with so many friends and family around.

Let's talk about that. What was that like playing in that particular arena? Yeah, well, some of the girls play for Lancashire. So that was their kind of home county ground as well. So I think even more special for them to get to represent Scotland at their home of cricket in a way. And then, yeah, to do it in front of friends and family. I mean, after the game, I ran over to the crowd.

And my brother and dad were in the front row just like screaming and yelling, gave me like the biggest hug ever. The rest of my family were there as well. and it was honestly amazing. Probably a little bit sweeter and you can probably hear from my accent that I'm Irish. But that's probably a little bit sweeter

because there is a rivalry with Ireland. There is, yeah. I mean, I guess we're pretty close to each other geographically. So we come across each other at a lot of events, qualifying tournaments, Europeans, globals. So we do have a long-standing rivalry against it and there's a lot of respect as well but it was sweet to win

it's okay you can say it it's fine but you talk about your dad and your brother there and how thrilled they must be for you because you first got into cricket my understanding is when you were just five in Dundee playing with the boys

as so many of our sports women have done could you ever imagine that you'd be making history in this way no it didn't even cross my mind I guess like you said growing up there was no visibility of women's sport

other than maybe tennis I remember watching professional tennis athletes who were women on TV but other than that I didn't see anything so the only cricket I watched was men's cricket I grew up playing boys and men's cricket so it didn't cross my mind that I could make it to a World Cup

but didn't cross my mind that I could be a professional cricket guitar, it just wasn't even vaguely on the radar. You weren't thinking I'm going to represent Scotland and beat Ireland in the World Cup. Not necessarily, no. Let's bring Trudy in here. How important is this T20 World Cup for the women's game in Scotland? It's critically important for Scottish cricket, Cricket Scotland, our women's team and everybody involved, to have a women's T20 World Cup.

As Prina has said, pretty much it's a home World Cup. for us. It's a once in a generation opportunity for our women's squad to, for many of them to be playing. So to have that family and friends support there, to have the team behind the team also there supporting them. You know, we are, you know, we're really, really excited by that first win against Ireland. We've talked about that rivalry that we have and, you know, that's an important rivalries. Rivalries in sport, you know, a part of what make it, you know, really interesting and appealing. But for us just young girls and boys seeing our women's team on the main stage

and showing the competitive force that we are, but also highlights the investment that we've put in the women's game as well. And we'll talk about that as well. But you've got a tough old group. I'd be curious for both of you on this. Maybe I'll start with you, Trudy. So let's see, we've got England, New Zealand and the West Indies. How to navigate that, Trudy.

Well, I've been doing the maths behind the scenes as you do. So I sat and watched England and Ireland last night. And obviously West Indies tomorrow, Thursday. And we beat West Indies last year in 2025. And it was 50 over cricket. But we know that we can take it to those full members. So for us, you know, T20 cricket is great because on the day, I think we start at zero and any team can win.

And so for us, whilst the mountain might be slightly higher to climb in people's thoughts, I also think that, you know, we have a squad that can win on the day. And without going to put any pressure on the squad, I really do believe in that. It's tough. New Zealand are going to be tough. Title holders. England are going to be tough. So will Sri Lanka and West Indies.

but I do believe our best good forward and we will give it everything we can. And then the rest is up to the players, Priya Nas. Yeah, I think similar, I guess. We know that if we play our best, we can compete. And in sport, there's a lot of focus on controlling the controllables. It's very kind of cliched saying. But it's true. And it's almost like we just do everything we can to do.

what we know we do well, to play our brand of cricket, to focus on our side of things. And if we get outplayed, then fair enough. But I think we're kind of happy that if we play to our best, we know that we can compete against the teams that we're up against. I was listening to you, Trudy, in an interview that you gave to a podcast. And you talked about, you know, getting this Scottish team as invigorated or in as powerful a position as they can.

can be and changing mindsets as well, that for many they had seen cricket, not the team, but in general cricket could be seen as an English sport as opposed to a Scottish sport. Can I hear a little bit more from you on that and how you can change that, how you change that? Well, I think, so in Scotland, you know, I grew up in a country where cricket was a mainstream sport. In Scotland, that's not quite the same. So football and rugby are two really big sports. in Scotland. But I see the potential that cricket has in Scotland. I see the potential through the demographic that plays cricket at that sort of participation and grassroots level. I see the investment that we're putting in at Scottish cricket and cricket Scotland to make sure that our

teams can compete on the world stage. And I think, you know, cricket is a sport that that teaches you a range of skills because it's a team sport, it's strategic, it's got numbers for maths, it's got, you know, all of these different things. And then there's a health and fitness element of it. So I really do think cricket as a sport is, there's an opportunity there as a genuine alternative to some of the more mainstream sports in Scotland. And I do think with our changing demographics, that there is a real opportunity there for us to continue to grow the game. And, you know, I love the game of cricket. I want to see it grow and prosper in Scotland. And, you know, as the person leading the organisation, you know, that is, that's my role.

so I'll be making sure that we continue to shine a light on everything we're doing. And that's on men's and women's cricket. But, you know, the women's game, for me, has been a real priority. It's not been prioritised the way it should have been in previous years. And now we're seeing what that effort and that prioritisation does. And the steps and changes we've made have been significant. Let's talk about that. And indeed, the first women's cricket game in Scotland was in 1878.

I also learned. But, you know, when you became CEO, it was a time off real challenge for women's cricket in Scotland. It was just before an independent report, the McKinney Report of 2024, was published that revealed systemic sexism within cricket Scotland. It found specific needs of women were often dismissed or not considered, a high degree of prejudice and discrimination to both female staff and players. It also found root causes of sexism, including the makeup of committees, embedded male behaviours. a lot to dismantle. What do you feel you have been able to achieve? There is a lot to dismantle in that.

And coming into a role and having to share with the women's team, Prinas was in that meeting when I shared the outcomes of the McKinney report with the team. And it was probably one of the hardest things that I've had to do, to sit with a group of individuals who I don't really know, I'm six weeks in the role, and to let them know that everything that's wrong with the women's game in Scottish cricket. So for us, what have we done? Well, we've increased our investment significantly in the women's game,

both at a professional level and also at the grassroots level. We're seeing that benefit of that. We're seeing that the competitions, you know, back-to-back World Cups. We're seeing an increase in grassroots participation, so increase of 4% from 24 to 25. We run girls-only dynamo sessions, so we've got hundreds of girls every weekend that are coming out to play their sport.

but also just how we plan and prepare. So, for example, at the professional level, making sure that our women's team have the same stats package as the same uniforms. It's just the really basic things that, you know, ensure equity in what we do. And the outcomes of the McKinney report have really, we should never have needed the McKinney report,

but have highlighted a guide for us to make that change. I understand that. But I mean, are you able? to shift a mindset. It talked about inherent sexism, embedded male behaviours. I mean, how do you culturally change that? Yeah, I think we've all got to be patient. These things take time and coming into my role. That's one of the things that I've had to say. I definitely believe that there is a strong desire throughout Scottish cricket to grow the women's game. And I am seeing that out in our communities. You know, it would be remiss of me to say that there are still

people out there that don't necessarily prioritize it like we do. And that is cultural. That is not just in Scottish cricket. And that takes events like the T20 World Cup on the main stage, reminding people about, you know, we are here to play cricket, to represent Scotland. Doesn't matter whether we're male or female. We are the best in the country to represent Scotland playing cricket on the global stage. Let me turn to you, Pranaz.

from your perspective as a player did some of the findings of that report resonate with you or do you feel a difference has been made in the intervening time? Yeah, I definitely think the report resonated. I think the report came out of a lot of conversations with the women's team amongst other people. So I think we were very aware

that there was a lot of problems within the organisation and I guess as a starting point it was good that actually got heard and listened to and acknowledged. And then I think moving forward, I guess it's like the challenge of an organisation like Cricket Scotland is that they don't have massive resources and certainly nothing in comparison to some of the bigger cricketing nations. I can definitely tell that there's been a big effort across the organisation to address these issues. I would say there's still more work to be done. Any particular area, Breynaz, that you'd like to see more work done? I guess I don't know enough about the details of what has and hasn't happened.

So I would certainly value some more like communication and conversations and what has been done and what the vision is moving forward. I will say like I'm not based in Scotland, so I don't get the opportunity to engage with the Scottish staff as much as maybe it would be nice to. I guess I'm coming from the lens of being one of the women's teams players so I would love to see kind of more focus on that area and more understanding of what is being done there but equally I know how important grassroots is and I think the growth of the game in Scotland is incredibly important and it does seem like there's really tangible

and important work being done there which I'm like really proud of the organisation let me just briefly to you Trudy if you want to respond to that before I move on to the West Indies? I think what Preenas said is absolutely fair and I think what we need to do is make sure we've got greater depth is what we need to focus on so that we've got the next generation of people coming through so that comes up to grassroots

through to the professional games. But there is more work to be done. I do agree with Prenas on that and we can do that together. Yes, so as Prinas puts out there kind of learning more perhaps and communicating through exactly what has been done for the players.

Okay, let's talk about tomorrow, Preenas, and then we'll let you go and have a rest or get psyched up, whatever it is. I know both of you love music. I did find that as I was looking into your respective backgrounds. How are you feeling? What are you going to do between now and then, Prenas? Yeah, I'm really excited. I think any opportunity for us to play, obviously, on the World Stage, it's hugely exciting for us. And then, again, we don't actually get the chance to play against teams ranked significantly above us very often.

And from our point of view, that is absolutely essential for us to move forward as a team, like to play against these better nations is how you improve. So the chance to do that for us is very, very exciting. And obviously we're going to go out there and give it our best shot and want to win the game, believe we can win the game. But also, regardless of the outcome, it's going to be an excellent learning opportunity for us. So definitely very excited. In terms of prep, I've got training this afternoon.

as soon as they're all over head up. It'll be pretty low-key, obviously, with the game tomorrow, nothing too intense. And then we'll do a bit of prep in terms of reviewing the opposition team and coming up with plans. And then tomorrow's an evening game. So that's always a bit of an interesting one because you have the whole day to overthink the game.

But I usually try and keep myself busy enough, not too busy, get the balance right. So I'll probably go out for coffee with some of the girls. maybe do a bit of music, distract myself a bit. And then kind of wants to get onto the bus, it will be getting to film. Game time. So lovely speaking to you, Breedaz Chatterjee and Trudy Lynn Blade.

Thank you both so much. And I need to let people know if you want to keep up with the women's T20 World Cup coverage and why wouldn't you? Every match will be broadcast live on BBC Radio 5 Live and across the BBC Sport website and app from today. The Signal Awards recognise the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart

with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide. By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team and stand-up. out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration. Let me turn to a couple of your messages coming in on sisters just before I move on. My mom helped to care for my little sister, 20 years younger than she was, who had Down syndrome. She also cared for her three brothers who were born between the two sisters. They still refer to

her being their second bum, even though her sister, 8444, 844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, I want to turn to a book by the Danish anthropologist, Sina Planbach. It is called Global Sex, What Sex Workers Know About Love and Capitalism. Sina is a renowned expert on sex work, migration and human trafficking. She's dedicated 20 years of her life to pursuing the trail of sex and money across the globe. Seema introduces us to four migrant sex workers from Thailand and Nigeria who speak frankly and honestly about their livelihoods and the treacherous migration routes that lead them away from their families.

Back in their hometowns, she finds lives transformed by the money that absent mothers, daughters, wives and sisters send home from selling sex. I began with Sina asking her who the four women are that she chose to profile. So one of them is Somay. She's now in her 60s. She traveled to Pataya, one of the world's largest red light district to take care of her four children. There she marries a Danish man. And now she's living in Denmark for 20, 30 years. The other one is Lom, who traveled across many borders from Thailand to Malaysia to South Korea and now is in Dubai. And she's sending money back to her two teenage children in her little village in Thailand. Vivian, who crossed the Sahara. desert, leaving domestic violence back home, leaving her two children back home, traveling across the Mediterranean, nine months pregnant, and is now in Milan cleaning at a hotel, taking care of the son that she got while crossing. And then there's Becky, who is no longer among us. She died on her way to Europe, pregnant, and she was from Nigeria, from Benin City, and she was

hoping to come to Europe to make it here. So you're from Denmark, but you follow women that are from and also Nigeria. Can you tell us a little bit more of the significance of those two countries? So these two countries are places from where migrant sex workers in particular travel to Europe, but also in other places. So I traveled back there and did fieldwork in the communities, the villages, to see the difference it makes, the money they send back home to their families. And even though Thailand and Nigeria sounds like very different places, they are really

comparing things you can compare. Like, for instance, the houses, you would see a house built by the money that a woman have sent home. And next to it is the house that you grew up in, which would be like an old wooden traditional Thai house. So it was possible for me to see that even though these two different places, they share the benefits of the money that sex workers and other migrant women are able to send home. And I think you have photographs in your book that I found very enlightening as well. you show a picture of the house, for example, that could be built, or some of the women young and some not so young, maybe on their way out, or with their child pushing a child in a stroller in Sicily, for example,

you do strike up a bond and a friendship with these women pretty quickly. Why do you think they were prepared to tell you these stories that are very intimate? I mean, time is definitely a factor. I spend a lot of times and also being a lot in Benin City, being a lot in the villages in Thailand. So we also talked a lot about other things than sex work. It was not my primary. We eat together, I know.

We eat together, you know, in the refugee camps in Sicily, I would also stay in the room there. So, I mean, just being there over their lives, that makes them very generous to share what's happening in their lives. I mean, you did some, or you were perhaps in some unusual places. You're an anthropologist, but you did work in one of, the brothels as a receptionist. What was that like? So the story is that I went there to interview some of the sex workers and they were like, no, you cannot just interview us. You have to really,

if you want to understand our lives, you have to do the work. They were like, do you want to try a client? I was like, no. Do you want to just, you know, share your tits, basically? And I was like, no. And then they were like, but then you can pick up the phone when the clients are calling. And I was very bad at it because I didn't know. I was too honest. I was like, yeah, she's like middle-sized breast and, you know, she's probably around 40. And then after that, that's in the book, she was like, no, you're too honest. Every time the client is calling, we are under 30, we have big breast and we have long hair. Because when the client is coming, he doesn't care. You often supported these women financially when they were particularly going through a rough

period. It could be that they needed an abortion, for example. It might be that they needed a hospital visit. It might be that they needed a home to go to or food on the table. Did you ever, or have you ever been concerned that it wasn't a real friendship? Because you talk about these bonds of friendship between you and these four women. No, because I have followed them for so many years. And I've also been there. How many years? 20 years, depending on who of the women were talking about. So I've been there through so many parts of their lives. I know their stories inside and out. And also when you work among such, I wouldn't say vulnerable, people in very precarious situations, you can't just come there as the anthropologists and be like, thank you. Let me have your story

and go back and write a book. No, you have to be there also when the camera is off, so to speak, and be there. Sometimes I was the only one they could ask. And you can kind of be the privileged person entering into people's lives, asking all these questions. And then when you're a lot of they need an abortion, which could kill them if they get an illegal abortion. So they ask me for borrowing money to get an abortion at a real clinic. You have to provide that. And obviously abortion is a very contentious issue. Some might disagree with the concept entirely.

I know you're talking about it from your point of view. I understand that. But in the lives of sex workers, abortion is a key issue. You can kind of deny that it's part of their lives. and there would be money that would agree that it is part of their lives, but some that would think that it shouldn't be, but that is an issue for another day. You mentioned the money that they send home

and how they provide for their families. Do their families know that the money is made by selling sex? Most of them do. So in these communities where I have worked, this kind of sex work migration has taken place for many, many years. And I would say when I started out, 15 years ago, the families didn't know in the same kind of way. But now it's common knowledge that that's also a way to make money. But they don't know the family is often how tough it is to be

a migrant sex worker, whether in Denmark, UK or elsewhere. So there's a lot of issues that they don't know about. Because they travel, right? They journey. Some of the journeys are treacherous. What have you seen over the past 20 years in how that has changed? obviously another contentious issue, immigration and small boats, crossings, etc. But I'm wondering for the women that you've spoken to. One of the women I write about Somay, she arrived in the airport in Copenhagen 20 years ago with an invitation letter from her boyfriend saying, I'm inviting Somay for three months to Denmark.

Imagine you went through the airport with a love letter, basically, but she entered. We cannot even imagine that situation today. So the women that I work among now, they cross the Mediterranean. it's become more risky, more deadly. They also are much more indebted to traffickers and smugglers when they cross, that they then have to repay through selling sex. So you can say that over 20 years, what we used to call Fortress Europe,

has kind of tightened. And that's also a very contagious issue. Intentious issue to talk about. But that's the reality. Some of them make it the UK. Some of them make it to the UK. Europe. Do you think that it is what they expected to be? Because you talk about some of the women, Thailand, I think, particularly looking for a foreign man and that they would go to Europe.

Do you think it's all that they expected to be cracked up to be? For some, they end up, like Somay in the book, she ends up marrying this Danish guy. She has now been in Denmark for 30 years. She managed to get 11 people out of poverty. When I asked her about how she looks at her life, She says, I'm proud. I'm proud of what I did to take care of my family. Then there are other women, and one of them I write about two, Vivian from Nigeria, who after 12 years in Europe, crossing the Mediterranean nine months pregnant with her baby, now she has a one-room shared apartment.

She is now cleaning at a hotel in Milan for 700 euros a month, and she hasn't seen her two sons in Nigeria for these 12 years. And she had a very difficult story about why she needed to leave as well. Yes. The book is so readable, I have to say, so accessible because it is through the lives of these women. You have in it the figures, you know, of what they may have made in various jobs that was not selling sex and how that compared with selling sex, sometimes also selling sex for very little money. Yeah. Very little money, particularly in Nigeria, I think.

In Nigeria, it's $3 for one client. Then you move to Sicily, it's $20. Then you move to Copenhagen, then it's around $100. It's incredible to read their stories and to get to know them, but also to get to know you because you intertwine your own journey into motherhood, for example, or things that you went through with these four women that you follow. So it's not just their story, it's your story too. Tell me a little bit about that process of, you know, seeing things that happened in your life

and then seeing things that happened in theirs. Yeah, so when I read through this pile of notebooks, it's a little bit of, was quite clear that I was in the notebooks as well. So I was kind of the fifth woman. Yes. And traveling across these different sites, red light districts, borders, Brussels, that I kind of take the curtains away from this environment that we rarely see. I have often had to bring my children because I have four children of very different ages. You know, me seeing their lives as mothers and them seeing me as a mother, not only like that white policy, researcher coming there to look at their lives, our lives became intertwined. And the other thing is that

as we grow older, whether we are anthropologists or researchers or sex workers, different things becomes important, like the death of our parents, divorce, how everything is going with our children. So in the book, I decided to look at what does it mean to be born where I'm born in Denmark? and what does it mean to come from where they are born? Yeah, it was very moving actually when you talk about when your mother died and the support and help that you had following her death. She died very young at 61. I'm very sorry for your loss.

That you had therapy and time off work or able to manage your life around that grief, which was something you felt a lot of these women that were sex workers that needed to travel to earn money, just did not have. that infrastructure. Yeah, it was a possibility to say something about the inequality in grief as well. So I had travel insurance making sure that I came home to say goodbye to my mom. And these women, often living undocumented, selling sex in European cities, when their moms were dying, they could not return home and say goodbye. So I wanted to show that what the difference that makes privilege is also something that's shaping your grief.

You are here in the UK because your book has been published in English. I'm wondering how the women that you followed feel about the publication in English and having their stories reach this global audience now. They're very proud of getting their stories out. It's quite significant that all four of them decided not to be anonymous because they wanted their stories to be told. They're honored. They're proud of getting their stories out.

What do you want people to take away from your book? My Danish readers are saying it changed their perspective on sex work and it changed their perspective on women as migrants. I also want us to acknowledge the huge burden that many women, migrant women are bearing, sending money back home and taking care of their families and kind of leaving our prejudice and ideas behind and just really listen to the human stories. Sina Plumbeck there, her book is called Global Sex,

what sex workers know about love and capitalism and it's out now. Thanks very much to her. I want to read some of your many messages that are coming in about your sisters. My sister and I were white water rafting down the Zambezi in Zambia. The boat overturned and the river was full of crocodiles. I reached the surface and felt something grab my legs.

It wasn't a crocodile, but my sister trying to hold me up above the water line to ensure I was picked up quickly by the rescue canoe. Absolute classic Eleanor. She's my big sister and would give her life to ensure my safety. Here's another. I only met my now 65-year-old half-sister

for the first time three years ago. I was adopted as a baby after her married father had an affair with my very young mother. She and my three half-brothers live in California. We try and meet now twice a year and everything we do together is so very special. I'm so lucky to have found her

and that we've bonded so well. And one more. My husband passed away while we were living in Columbia last year and my three sisters came over one after the other to support me through the whole thing and bring me and my two children home. I hope they realise how grateful I am for that and how much it meant to me. Really lovely stories 844-844 if you'd like to get in touch about your sisters. And I should also say,

maybe you remember we had a whole hour on sisters. It was Monday the 26th of August, 2024, that woman's hour all about that relationship and all that it brings with a lovely programme to present. Perhaps you'd like to listen to it too. I want to turn to peptides. They've become a new buzzword in the wellness industry. Social media influencers and some athletes and celebrities have spoken out about using them for optimising performance in the gym and also for improving their appearance.

So peptides are short chains of amino acids that occur naturally in your body. They include things you've probably heard of like insulin, collagen and GLP1. They're in, forgive me, they're in insulin collagen and also in GLP 1 weight loss medications. So the increase of the GLP ones has led to a surge of interest

in people using peptides for other things. You might have seen it on your social media feeds, but some of the peptides being promoted online aren't licensed or regulated. Let me bring in Ruth Clegg, she's BBC Health Reporter, who's been looking into this surge of interest and speaking to some of the women who are using peptides.

We also have Adam Taylor, Professor of Anatomy at Lancaster University. who researches peptide use. Great to have both of you with us. Professor, let me begin with you, perhaps before we get into how women are using them. How would you describe peptides? I always thought they were in a skin cream,

but what do I know? Tell us where we might find them. I mentioned insulin there. Yeah, so peptides aren't a new thing. They've been around for over 100 years old, and you use the great example of insulin, in probably the most well-known peptide. It's been around for over 100 years,

treating, obviously, involved in managing blood sugars. Peptides, as you said, are short chains of amino acids. They are the building blocks of life, proteins in the body, and they can be naturally occurring or they can be synthetically put together to be like the naturally occurring peptides we get in the body. And the word peptide has been around for a long time, as you say, beauty creams, lotions and potions that we can buy

in the supermarkets and shots in town. So pet tides are not a new thing, and the word probably brings some safety. You know, it's a familiar word that people, it's a run of the mill name. But we are now seeing, as you said, social media is becoming a rich place for peptides that aren't approved that haven't been studied.

And this is the gray area that we're operating in now, and these are the ones that are causing some concern in the scientific community. Okay. Well, Ruth, you've investigated peptide use for the BBC. What did you find? Yes, morning, Newler. It's a fascinating area and I've been looking into it for the past few months and I've gone down many a peptide rabbit hole,

such as the wealth of information that's on social media and across the internet. And like Professor Taylor mentioned, that they've been around for many years and they were first used really kind of the grey market peptides, probably you're talking in the 2010s when bodybuilders were using them and they were used in gyms and they were used primarily for muscle growth and recovery. But they have become so much more mainstream.

I'd say over the past 18 months to two years, peptide use has exploded and more and more women are using them. Partly because there's more and more of us going to the gym, we're more in the well-being space, we're taking part in strength training and that kind of thing, but also because they are being more targeted at women. So for example, there's a copper peptide which goes by the name, a lot of these peptides are very catchy names, GHKCU, which claimed for portally is good for your skin, for your wrinkles, for anti-aging, for your hair and your nails. And I think, like we say, we kind of entered a little bit of a perfect storm in the sense that GLP1, the weight loss drugs, which are heavily regulated, their licence, they've gone through rigorous human trials.

but people are injecting things that they've never done before and it's seen as a more normal process of putting a chemical into our body. Combine that with the word peptides and people are believing that these grey market unregulated peptides are safe. So let me come back to you, Professor. Ruth has mentioned the grey market there. What is it? It's a grey area.

got these products that are being marketed predominantly online, although you can walk into certain places across the world and buy them in person. And so they fit in this gray area where they're not regulated. So things that go into the body typically fall under a health regulator and are tried and tested through various levels of laboratory trials and tests to verify, are they saved, do they do more damage than good. And then they move into human trials. So again, to make sure that there's no cross-reactivity and no, no, no, damage to the body occurring, i.e. they need to be doing more good than the damage, than potential damage or side effects. So they are gray market in that they are not regulated by

anybody. And those that we see online are being marketed as research only products, not for human consumption, not for human ingestion, not for, they come in a variety of words, but the onus is on that they are not to be put into the human body. So people are purchasing them. They're unregulated. Nobody is able to tell us about the quality, the purity. You just tell us. the manufacturers or the sellers word for, they are 99% pure and they are what they say on the tin. I just want to read a little from the MHRA, the agency that regulates medicine and healthcare products in the UK for the position on unregulated peptides. They said the MHRA determines whether a product is a medicine on a case-by-case basis. This includes consideration of a number of factors, including the product's effect on the body, the way it is used and takes into account all the available evidence and relevant legal precedence.

We disregard claims that products are for research purposes if it is clear that such claims are being used as an attempt to avoid medicine's regulations. If a product is classified as a medicine and is not appropriately authorized, we take regulatory compliance action. Is it dangerous, Professor, to use an unregulated peptide? Yes, absolutely.

Why? So many of these peptides are investigated in laboratory studies, so in dishes or in animal studies, and are shown to have some benefit in certain circumstances. What often that is taken as is that that piece of science is directly translatable into being the same as in humans. What people don't realize is approximately somewhere between 90 and 95% of products, of therapies that are tested in animal models, are tested in laboratory models, don't make it to market because the side effects,

the damage when it comes to clinical trials in humans, show that they aren't having the same benefit or they aren't having the same effect. So these products haven't been through that rigorous process. We don't know whether they're short-term issues or there are issues that are going to amass cumulatively in the same way that alcohol, perhaps, and tobacco do after years and years of use of these products.

So they're being used by people for conditions that they may or may not have self-diagnosed. They're being used in the pursuit of anti-aging. And where the MH are talking about medicines, medicines are used to treat a specific condition that has been diagnosed. Many of these peptides are being used. These grey market peptides are being used in the pursuit of anti-aging, of anti-wrinkle. That's not a medical condition. That's just life. We should take our hats off that people are taking an interest in their health, their wellbeing, their beauty, their aesthetics. You know, that's a really, good thing, but there are better ways to try and slow the effect of aging on the body than

turning yourself into a laboratory experiment. Rinkles are not a medical condition. I'll just repeat that phrase. Let me turn to you, Ruth. Because you know, speaking to women, did they have any concerns about the side effects or potential safety implications? There were some concerns, but to be fair, I think it felt like they were more bothered about the short-term gain, what they could see happening with their bodies over a course of a number of weeks or months, rather than thinking about any long-term health effects. So, for example, Katie, one of the women I spoke to, who has been on weight loss strokes and felt that peptides were the next, as she says, logical step for her to help with her skin.

Now she said she started with it very slowly, she used small amounts and began to increase it over time, each time check in whether she was having any adverse reactions. And there are reports of side effects, which is skin irritation, nausea, fatigue, digestion issues in the short term. And as Professor Taylor mentioned, we don't know what those long-term issues could be. We do know that they are playing around with the way that our hormones act. So there is concern that we could end up damage in our organs, we could end up with cardiovascular issues, abnormal muscle growth. I suppose in some respects it's a wait and see to see how these chemicals react to our bodies long term. Just very briefly, Professor, how can women navigate the amount of information that they're being bombarded with?

It's really difficult, particularly in the world we live in today, this interconnected social media world, where everything is visible, everything is being judged on appearance, talk to people, you know, weigh up the evidence, you know, everything we see on social media, that's just a snapshot of what is going on. You know, there's a lot of, particularly with AI nowadays, you know, you can pick up information, you can ask it what's good, what's bad, and take a balanced approach. Don't just take the information as is presented.

I think the other thing that's really important to stress is women are far more at risk of adverse reactions from these chemicals and compounds. Yeah, between 50 and 75% increased risk compared to men because of the hormonal changes that happened with menstrual cycles and another trajectory through life. Thank you very much, Professor Adam Taylor and our BBC health reporter, Root Clegg. And I should say if you're thinking about taking peptides, please do talk to your GP or qualified health professional.

Right, another message. My sister, Laura and I went to Salzburg on holiday as teenagers. We had a wonderful time pretending to be Julie Andrews, an icon of ours. We were both each other's maids of honour at our weddings, and now she's weeks away from having her first child. I can't wait to see her become a mum. But to me, she will always be that young teenager running around convents in Austria. How lovely.

Join Anita tomorrow. She'll be speaking to Dr. Precious Lunga. Her husband is the Veteran Channel 4 news anchor John Snow. You may know he has now shared that he is living with Alzheimer's. So Anita will speak to Dr. Precious Lunga. at tomorrow. Join her then. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. I'm Kate Lamble and from Understand from BBC Radio 4, this is rinsed. Last time I was here, there was a tampon and there was a condom.

A sewage scandal damaging our rivers. We had an enormous range of animals in the garden and that also started to disappear. Uncovered by ordinary folk taking on powerful people. And they told me, there's nothing wrong with the river windrush, basically go away and stop troubling us. This is the story of how a centuries-old battle between public good and private profit created an almighty stink, and who pays to clean it up? Rinsed. Listen first on BBC Sounds.

And I thought, no, you're the problem. The Signal Awards recognised the podcast that define culture and being honored by the Signal Awards sets your production team apart with recognition from the industry's top experts and access proof that your work is a standard bearer for podcasting worldwide.

By entering, your work is heard by the Signal Awards Judging Academy, an invitation-only body of podcast professionals from acclaimed organizations which include the BBC. Grow your audience, celebrate your team, and stand out. The final entry deadline to submit is the 26th of June. Enter your podcast at signalaward.com for consideration.