Woman's Hour - Women voting in Northern Ireland, playwright and actor Faith Omole, Sarah Ockwell Smith on ‘demetrescence’

Episode Date: June 25, 2024

With just over a week to go until the UK heads to the polls for the general election, what’s the situation for women voters in Northern Ireland? BBC Northern Ireland political correspondent Jayne McCormack joins Nuala McGovern to discuss what political candidates there are offering women.Days ahead of a UN summit on Afghanistan, which is set to exclude Afghan women, reports are surfacing from teenage girls and young women arrested by the Taliban for wearing 'bad hijab' that they have been subjected to sexual violence and assault in detention. Zarghuna Kargar joins Nuala.The term ‘matrescence’ has been around since the 70s, but it’s only recently becoming more commonly known as a concept. It describes the process of becoming a new mother, and the emotional and physical changes you go through after the birth of your child. But then how should we talk about the experience of matrescence when your kids are teenagers, you’re in mid-life and you start the menopause? The parenting expert and childcare author Sarah Ockwell-Smith has a name for that – inspired by a Greek goddess, she calls it ‘demetrescence' and she explains all to Nuala.Faith Omole is best known as an actress but now she’s well on the way to be know at least as well for her writing too. Last week her first performed play, My Father’s Fable, premiered at Bush Theatre in London. It tells a gripping story of grief, belonging, and a family on the edge. And in a BBC first, Radio 3’s Georgia Mann will be at Glastonbury this year. She is opening the Crow’s Nest stage on Friday, spinning classical tunes in a DJ set. She joins Nuala McGovern to discuss how she has selected the music for her set and how prepared she is for camping.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Laura Northedge

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, Faith Amole is already a star. She received an Olivier nomination for starring in the musical Standing at the Sky's Edge. Or maybe you know her as the bassist in the Muslim band sitcom We Are Lady Parts. Well, she has also made her playwriting debut with the gripping My Father's Fable. I saw it last night. It was with a raucous audience.

So I'm very much looking forward to speaking to Faith this hour. She'll be here in studio. Also, Dimitrisence, a new word created by my guest to describe that tricky transition as you were experiencing perimenopause or menopause with those fluctuating hormones while parenting teenagers who are dealing with surging hormones. Well, we're going to discuss it and I want to hear your stories, right? Get them into me. How are you navigating all that? Maybe you have more empathy for your mother now. I don't know, but you can text the programme.

The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. If you want to send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also, as you will know, the UK general election is on the 4th of July. There are 18 seats in Northern Ireland

at stake. So we're going to hear about the issues that matter to women there. And classical Glastow Radio 3's Georgia Mann is here and she's going to tell us about her set that is coming up at Worthy Farm this weekend. But let us begin with Afghanistan, just days ahead of the UN summit on the country, which is set to exclude Afghan women.

There are reports surfacing from teenage girls and also young women that were arrested by the Taliban for wearing, as they called, a bad hijab or not the correct clothing, according to the Taliban. The girls and the women say they have been subjected to sexual violence and assault in detention. The UN say that many women were detained by the Taliban. This is in December 2023, January 2024, following a decree by the Taliban that women must cover themselves from head to toe, revealing only their eyes. Let's speak first about this story with Zarghuna Kargar, who joins me to discuss it, our BBC correspondent. Zarghuna, good to have you back with us.

So we're just hearing some of these reports this morning. They've told the Afghan news service Zan Times about their treatment following arrests. What have you heard? Yes, it's very disturbing details have emerged based on accounts of young women who were arrested by the Taliban for wearing not the proper hijab or clothes that they have recommended. There are reports of them being sexually abused in prison, some being murdered even. So very, very disturbing details. I do remember in December when we were reporting

the arrests of young teenage girls for not obeying the hijab by the Taliban Ministry of Vice and Virtue. That time, the Taliban denied the arrests were based on improper clothing, as they say. And the Taliban have denied these allegations as well. We have to remember that it's very, very difficult in Afghanistan to verify reports by individuals at the moment. Afghanistan doesn't have a very free media. In Afghanistan judicial system, there is no woman serving as a judge or as a solicitor. Those are all abolished.

There is no female judge in Afghanistan. So just finding the accounts and the truth and the Human Rights Commission is not as active as it was before. So it's very, very difficult to get verification for reports. It's based on what the women have alleged and it's based on the Taliban denying these allegations. But we have heard accounts of other women in the past when they were arrested just soon after the collapse of Kabul to the Taliban. When they went and protested on streets, some of them were arrested and they spoke to the BBC openly about being beaten up in prison, being tortured. So these reports have emerged from time to time from Afghanistan, but this time the details of these young women is really disturbing. Because is this the first time that we're hearing allegations of sexual violence?

Yes, this is the first time I have read it. Sexual violence and being raped and being murdered. These kind of allegations I've heard first time. In the past, I have listened to women who have spoken, who have shared videos on social media about being beaten up, being tortured in prison. But this time, it's the first time I'm reading about it. There is also in the news this morning details of an upcoming UN summit. And this is where voices of the Taliban

will be heard, as I understand it, taking place in Doha. But it's set to exclude the voices of Afghan women. Can you explain what's happening? Yes, Nula, this has been a topic among Afghan women. Can you explain what's happening? Yes, Nula, this has been a topic among Afghan women, a topic of discussion among Afghan women for almost two, three weeks now. Afghans are aware of the upcoming event next week in Doha with the Taliban. The UN has been criticized for allowing, for even holding a meeting with the Taliban.

They have done women, especially mostly those women who have lost a lot in the last three years, like the women who gain so much freedom and professions. You know, they were in the parliament. Those women have been like together in voicing their concerns about not a single woman being represented in this meeting, which is about their country, which is about their future. Sorry, Zargun, what is the exact reason for this meeting taking place? The UN has convened the meeting because the UN has always said that they are

trying to find a solution for Afghanistan's crisis. They accept that it's a crisis when it comes to women treatment, when it comes to poverty, when it comes to isolation from the world. So this is what the UN says, that it's a meeting about finding a conciliation among different groups in Afghanistan to find a solution for the crisis. And who decided to exclude the voices of women then, if we know? Exactly. It's not clear, but we know from the history of the country, from the history of the Taliban, that they are not willing to sit with women. They have made the women issue, as some the men of the family need to discuss. And that's how I think the agenda has been set. I am not so sure if it is a precondition by the Taliban, but the UN has also been criticized widely by Afghans, by women in Iran, women in the region, by politicians.

That's why they haven't pushed the Taliban to accept women's presence. But we know from the nature of the group or the nature of the authorities that they have not been willing in the past to sit face to face with women. Just very briefly, Zarguna, as well, for those that haven't been following as closely as you have, how would you describe the situation for young women and girls in Afghanistan today?

Nula, I'm an Afghan woman. It is, when I think about it, as a woman, as a mom of a young girl, it is devastating situation when it comes to women. The women and girls are denied basic rights. They are not allowed to work outside their homes. They are not allowed to go to school. Secondary schools are banned for girls. Universities are banned for young women. Many of

the women who were about to finish their university degrees have lost that opportunity. We haven't had graduates from grade 12. This is the year when students go to university. So we haven't had any women graduating from grade 12 in the last two years. How devastating can that be? It is a dark era for women and girls in Afghanistan and I hope a solution will be found on the world stage for this crisis. It's really quite something actually to think about because a number

of years have gone by that that's the future. That is not happening for young girls. Imagine girls were going to be graduated to be midwives. Girls were going to be graduated to be midwives. Girls were going to be graduated to be engineers in the last year or so. But they have not been able to.

So imagine all your hopes, all your dreams crushed just because your government or your authorities do not agree with you. And the basic reason is, the simple reason is, that you're a woman, you're a girl. You need to sit at home. You need to follow the rules that we provide for you or the men provide for you. Sarguna Kargar, our BBC correspondent,

who is Afghan, as she mentioned. Thank you so much for joining us this morning on Woman's Hour. I mentioned we're going to be speaking about Demetrescence, a new word if you're perimenopausal or menopausal and you've got a teen in your house. What's going on there? Here's one that came in. One message. I'm 47. I'm becoming menopausal at the same rate that my 14-year-old son is becoming a man. And although the mood swings seem to be okay, we are growing matching moustaches. More of a problem for me than him right now.

Keep them coming. 84844. Now, my colleague and co-presenter, Anita, may be packing her wellies at the moment because she's off to host Woman's Hour live from Worthy Farm for a Glastonbury special on Friday. Listen to this. Guests include pop icon Cindy Lauper, a live performance from singer Corinne Bailey-Ray. You're going to hear tips about how to go to a festival solo and also from female business owners working behind the scenes to put together the biggest festival in the UK. There's somebody else who's going. She's sitting opposite me. It's a BBC First.

It's Radio 3's Georgia Mann. We'll also be at Glastonbury. She's opening the Crow's Nest stage on Friday. What is she spinning? Classical tunes. She's got a DJ set coming up. So let's talk a little bit more about how classical music is becoming more present outside of perhaps its traditional spaces. Welcome, Georgia. Hi, Nuala. Are you packed?

No, I haven't even started. All I'm thinking about is things like wet wipes and dry shampoo. That's what people keep saying to me on a loop. And I feel like I need to invest in those items heavily. No one is more surprised than me that this is happening, but happily surprised. How are you feeling about it? I'm feeling I'm looking forward to it a lot as a small amount of trepidation because I'm not a happy camper and I will be residing in a tent. There is a small fear about rain. I won't lie. The last couple of times I've been camping and it has rained, I have cried. However, I'm not going to let that stop me. I am bringing classical to Worthy Farm, whatever happens. You know what? Why don't I just throw out for 8444 if somebody has tips for Georgia on her way to Glasgow as well. Please, please help me. But you are opening, and we have to bring this to our listeners, you're opening.

It is a contemporary recomposing of very old music. So it's by a guy called Max Richter, who's a contemporary composer who is effectively rejigging music that Vivaldi wrote in 1718. And when Vivaldi wrote that, it was phenomenally revolutionary stuff. He was trying to capture the sounds of nature with instruments in a way nobody ever had done before. People were almost afraid when they heard what Vivaldi did. And what Max Richter's doing there, I think, and what he does brilliantly is give it a very modern, kind of minimalist, glacial feel. But it's exciting. And I want to show that classical music can be exciting. It can get you up, it can get you revived. It feels like such anticipation listening to it. Yeah, it is almost as if you're not quite exhaling with those violins kind of tucking themselves in all the time. And I think I do want to show with this because I think people often think of classical music as a great relaxant and something to de-stress to, which it is very valuable for.

But it can also life affirm and it can get you up and get your soul uplifted. So that's the opening. Love it. Tell me about some of the women composers that you've also chosen. I love these two women. I hope they don't think I'm too mad for saying this. But I have a piece called Sunrise Over the Dusty Nebula by Hannah Peel, my compadre over at Radio 3. So she's a presenter over at Radio 3 with me, but she also is a phenomenal composer. And this particular piece, Hannah took a Barnsley based brass band and got them to play very long notes and get very out of breath. And then she passed the whole thing

through analogue synthesiser, which I think might once have been used by Delia Derbyshire. And she's created this thing that is utterly otherworldly. I mean, it is more trancy than any trance that's going to get played elsewhere at Glastonbury, that I guarantee. And if you want to hear Hannah in action, Night Tracks on Radio 3 is a phenomenal show. And then I've also got this piece called Moon Moons by Anna Meredith, the funkiest of contemporary composers. This woman once went on a roller coaster ride with me at Chessington just to show me what speed means to her and how she uses it in her music. And she is an incredible, she's a multi-instrumentalist. She plays percussion, she does the violin, clarinet, and she marries up the sensibility of-instrumentalist she plays percussion she does the violin clarinet

and she marries up the sensibility of classical music those lyrical melodies these phenomenally well put together pieces with the absolutely banging kind of pulse of dance music everything she does has these huge bass lines and this piece moon moons you could you can absolutely get up and dance to it and that's why I want it in there. So how do you see this going, Georgia? Good question. But now, since you've got your music, you've obviously thought it all out. Will you be speaking to the crowd over it?

I will, in the most unobtrusive way I can manage, do a little bit of speaking because, I mean, I'm part of this thing called the Free University of Glastonbury, which is meant to be about ideas. The absolute god of radio, Sean Keaveney, will be turning up later in the day. Professor Alice Roberts, the wonderful Dr Janina Ramirez. So I think I have to tell people something.

And what I'm hoping to do a bit of is to humanise this music a bit because I do think people think of classical music as very distant, very rooted in the past, often blokes in wigs and nice breeches and stuff. And what I want to do is tell them about stuff like one bit of music is by Louis XIV's favourite composer who used to conduct using a massive staff and he used to bang it up and down. He conducted so hard that he put his staff through his foot,

gave himself gangrene and died. So it's little nuggets like that, you know. Also, there's a piece by Sibelius in there, which at the premiere, Sibelius couldn't hear a single note of because of all the drunk students making a massive racket. I thought appropriate for Glastonbury. So I'll be sharing that kind of stuff. I think maybe you should bring a staff.

This is what I need, right? Get through the mud if there's any mud. Mind my staff. Exactly, you could get the attention of those that are partying in front of you. Exactly, the Glastonbury gangrene staff. So what do you want people to go away with? I want people to go away thinking, oh, I didn't think classical music was like that.

And I would like people to go away thinking, I don't need to go to a concert hall and sit very quietly and formally, wonderful as concert halls are, to enjoy this music. This music is out there on its own terms. It does the same thing that dance music does. You know, my big finale is the finale of The Firebird by Stravinsky. If you want a beat drop, you needn't listen to Fatboy Slim, although do listen to him. He is at Glastonbury and he is

amazing. But Stravinsky does that in this finale. I want people to go away going, oh, right, hang on, pop's probably borrowing from this bag of tricks that the classical lot had. And have you done gigs like this before? No. In a word, no. It's a first and I am slightly... How are you preparing for that? Well, I am, well, funnily enough, I've taken a long time fiddling around with what we're actually going to play. Yes, but you kind of have that now. I have it now. I think what I want to do is have a degree of being in the moment because I think festivals are about having

a good time. They're about hedonism, aren't they? And enjoying yourself. But you're up on the crow's nest. I am, yes. I'm just really curious actually to see what the crowd's going to be like because they will have been camping for the first night. Will they be crawling out of their tents in need of sustenance or will they be ready for

extreme invigoration by this point? I'm just going to try and gauge what their mood is. And are you sticking to a set list or are you taking the vibes with the energy of the crowd in front of you? I will be sticking with it although there's a degree of manoeuvrability. I mean there is a piece in there by Debussy about gardens in the rain because I feel like I need to allow for the possibility of the famous raininess of Glastonbury and reflecting the weather which is a big deal, let's face it, for everybody there. Have an absolute blast. Is there anybody you're going to go and see

in particular that you're looking forward to? Well, I am looking forward to seeing Groove Armada, LTJ Bookham, Faithless, even though the wonderful Maxi Jazz isn't with us anymore, because that is my generation, basically, but also Sugar Babes, who are on the West Holt stage. I am very over-excited about the Sugar Babes, in fact. They are possibly stage. I am very overexcited about the Sugar Babes effect.

They are possibly very excited about you, Georgia. It sounds fantastic. Have an absolute blast. So The Crow's Nest, I should tell people as well that Glastonbury is on BBC TV, on iPlayer, on BBC Radio, on BBC Sounds, Wednesday the 26th or tomorrow until Sunday the 30th of June. Georgia is on BBC Radio 3,

Monday to Friday on Essential Classics. That's 9.30am to 1 o'clock. And as I mentioned, Georgia, you'll bump into Anita up there because Anita is there on Friday for Friday's Woman's Hour, I should say,

where she'll be live and she's going to be joined by Corinne Bailey-Ray, I mentioned. So her latest album is this huge departure from her previous work. So think less mellow soul and more punk rock.

Also, we're going to be hearing from the backstage staff keeping the show on the road. The woman who's been running the circus tent for 20 years. Also a female chef who's been taking her jerk chicken food truck to the festival. And this is for the first time. Sounds good. That is all live, of course, Radio 4 right here this Friday at 10am.

I will most definitely be tuning in and I'm very much looking forward to seeing and hearing Georgia Mann as well. Thanks, Georgia. Thanks. Now, we're putting things in the calendar. We've got Glastow there. Just over one week away from polling day in the general election. Today, we want to turn our focus to the campaign taking place in Northern Ireland. Of the 650 MPs to be elected next Thursday, 18 of them will be in Northern Ireland. So how are the political campaigns playing out? What matters to female voters?

This is Woman's Hour. BBC News Northern Ireland political correspondent Jane McCormick joins us now. Hi Jane, welcome. Morning Nuala, hi. How is it in Northern Ireland? I saw they had a debate on Sunday night. They did, they had the first of two leaders debates. I have to say that one was a bit lacklustre purely because our campaign

has been pretty low key in comparison to what's been going on across the water. There is another leaders debate on BBC Northern Ireland actually on Thursday night. So I'm going to get that plug in and it's being hosted by our very own Tara Mills as well. So that hopefully, as we edge towards a week out from the election,

maybe tensions will be a little bit higher. But I think every party here is trying to make no mistakes at this point. But Jane, you know, the parties, there's an awful lot of them and some of our listeners will not be familiar with many of them because the political landscape has changed quite a bit over the past few years as well. Could you lay it out for us a little?

Yeah, I mean, you're right. The landscape is totally different in Northern Ireland. I mean, the first thing to say is that Labour and the Conservatives don't have a stake here. We are a drop in the ocean when it comes to parliamentary presence. We only have 18 out of the 650 seats up for grabs. And in comparison to what happens in GB when a lot of the issues are around taxes and pensions and what's going on with the money in your pocket, our politicians, it tends to be more around the constitutional question. Elections are divided here along that kind of line. And let's be specific about what that constitutional question is.

Absolutely. So our main political parties here are split along kind of unionists who want to be part of the United Kingdom and nationalist parties who would like to see Northern Ireland rejoin the rest of the Republic of Ireland. And there's always that talk around Irish unity. So that tends to be how things go. Now, the one kind of division five years ago, the last Westminster election, we saw this very clear divide along pro-Brexit versus pro-Remain lines because at that point things were so turbulent and we had the question of where the border was going to go

when the UK left the EU. So that played out with a lot of tactical voting. This time around around things are quite different we've had a bit of a shake-up the past few years Sinn Féin who are the largest nationalist party in Northern Ireland an Irish Republican party who campaigned strongly for Irish unity they are now the largest party in Northern Ireland at our devolved assembly at Stormont they're also our largest party across councils here they're hoping to make it a hat trick and leapfrog the DUP to become the largest party from Northern Ireland at Westminster, which would be quite symbolic for them, a big change,

because traditionally it has been unionism that's held the stronghold here. And what are the polls suggesting with the caveat that they are polls? Absolutely. I mean, you always take them with a bit of a health warning. But the most recent poll we had a couple of weeks ago did have Sinn Féin still coming out on top with the caveat that they've had a tricky couple of elections south of the border in the past few weeks. The DUP, I have to say, five years ago, they were on 31% of the vote. Now polls have them sitting around 21%. Now, you can put that down to a range of factors. One is obviously we had them leaving Stormont, our devolved assembly, a couple of years ago over the issues around the Irish Sea border. They came back into Stormont back in February this year after doing a deal with the government here.

This is the first chance that voters have to really cast a verdict on some of that. But I should also say it's been a pretty turbulent few months for the DUP because of course they had an unexpected change of leader after Geoffrey Donaldson stood down in March having been charged with historical sex offences. Now he's strenuously contesting those, he is due in court the day before the election again. Gavin Robinson is the party's new leader and he's really been trying to make a move and try and kind of get the DUP back on strong footing but it's going to be really interesting to see how they manage all of these things on the 4th of July. Let's talk about some of the female candidates 45 standing in Northern Ireland so that's 33% of all candidates. You know we often see some particularly some of the front facing politicians, female in Northern Ireland, perhaps even more so than other parts of the UK.

How would you describe the situation for female politicians? Look, I think it's positive that we now have a first and deputy first minister again who are both women. Michelle O'Neill and Emma Little-Pengelly have been jointly leading the government here since February. And a lot of people have welcomed that. But at the same time, you talk about that figure of about 33% of female candidates in this election. We never tend to have a figure any higher than that. And you have to ask yourself, why is that the case? Now, I think a lot of it often comes down to the

hours aren't exactly great for any young woman who wants to get into politics. There is that sort of traditional divide that I've talked about, issues being fought constitutionally and then there's also this major issue which of course applies across the water as well but online trolling has become a really big problem in Northern Ireland. Just last week we had one of the candidates, Helen Maher from the STLP, which is a smaller nationalist party in Northern Ireland, speaking out about the abuse that she has faced since putting herself forward for election. She's a first time candidate. She's in her late 20s and some really disgusting images and messages she's been receiving. And she's not alone. I think that applies across the parties.

We've seen it in previous elections over the last couple of years. And she's not alone. I think that applies across the parties. We've seen it in previous elections over the last couple of years. And I'd say there's no doubt that that is a factor that plays into it. As well as often, not in this election, because this is a first past the post election, but in assembly elections where we have a couple of candidates running on a ticket,

traditionally women end up being the second candidate on that ballot paper. So often parties are accused of running paper candidates to make it look like they're promoting women. But often they are not getting the chance to actually get elected. And it's worth saying we've seen our MLAs at Stormont, our assembly members, women have risen in number there, but there's still a lot of work to do. And that applies in Westminster too. Let's talk about some of the issues. It's interesting you talk about basically a constitutional question about unity or not. And also Brexit, which of course, women care about massively on both of those issues. What else is coming to the fore? for? Look I think I haven't been able to to get talking to too many potential voters in the last few weeks I've been talking to more politicians but if you I'd say if you speak to potential

voters one of the big things for them is that until February we didn't have a government for two years here and actually over the last six years we've had more time without government working at Stormont devolved issues being dealt with than not. So I think for a lot of women, it is the issue of education. It is childcare. Northern Ireland's the only part of the UK that doesn't have a specific strategy to deal with childcare, which might seem surprising, but it's true. We lag behind the health service.

We have the longest waiting lists in any part of the UK. So it is these things, I imagine, that are more in the minds of women when they're going to cast their ballot than not. And while our politicians would say, well, look, we're only back in the job, we would like to do more, but we need more money from Westminster,

I'm not sure how far that cuts the mustard with a lot of potential voters, especially when there are so many things that they need to do. I was reading yesterday, it was just one report that talked about violence against women and girls and that Northern Ireland was one of the places that suffered most from that. I think it said in Europe, apart from Romania, that was a headline that shocked me.

What's behind that? Yeah, I don't know what exactly is behind that, but you're right. I mean, you know, for years again, it comes back to we didn't have a specific strategy to deal with domestic violence. We are coming out of a 30 year kind of decade or a 30 year conflict during the Troubles, which I think probably if you ask experts would say that feeds into a little as well. well but during lockdown and Covid you know we had large numbers of women either being assaulted or in some cases unfortunately murdered and that is something that Stormont's Justice Minister and our other politicians have have talked about tackling so back in February of this year again there was a move to try and get on with the strategy for ending violence against women and girls but it needs to be a joined up multi-layered approach which means all of our different parties in that government at Stormont

working together and I think that often means that we are a bit hamstrung when it comes to making progress more quickly. Gender identity became a big talking point in this election for England, Scotland and Wales. Is that reflected in Northern Ireland? Not really. I mean it's sort of there are a couple of political parties that have talked about? Not really. I mean, sort of, there are a couple of political parties that have talked about this at times. I mean, the Alliance Party, which I should mention is this sort of cross-community political party, doesn't actually take a position on the constitutional question,

so it designates as other in the Assembly. It's neither unionist nor nationalist. Now, this is something that they have advocated for. One of their incumbent MPs Stephen Farrie had actually talked at one point about being supportive of changing the gender recognition laws perhaps because of what happened in Scotland last year that seems to have died down a bit

but you have the likes of the DUP who take a totally different position on this who actually at one point had a campaign saying let kids be kids so it's there in the ether, in the background, but it hasn't really come to the fore here in the way that it has elsewhere. The issue of abortion was a big talking point in Northern Ireland. Its laws were different to the rest of the UK.

They were changed in 2020. But what, or is that really breaking through, or is it an issue that people, women, are talking about at the moment? I mean, if you go on tiktok or you look at some um social media that there will be a cohort of women who obviously um depending on on what position they take it will be an issue for them but i should say in the the four years since the law changed officially here we've had stormance department of health kind of forced into to making the changes we now have a commissioned abortion service that is funded out of Stormont's block grant.

The money comes from Westminster, largely. So it seems to have, the kind of the noise around it seems to have died down a lot. There is still opposition to it. I should say the DUP in their manifesto, which was published yesterday, said they continue to advocate against abortion

and will continue to push back against any further changes to it. But I think if you ask the political parties behind the scenes, they will all say it's up and running now. And they have other issues that they want to be getting on with. Jane McCormick, thank you so much for giving us a comprehensive look at the politics in Northern Ireland, the election campaign. And also what some of the issues are that matter to women who are voting there.

Our election coverage continues on Women's Hour on Thursday. We've heard so far from the leaders of Plaid Cymru and the Green Party. The day after tomorrow, so Thursday, we'll be hearing from Mary McAllen from the Scottish National Party, who will be representing her party leader. And you can listen back, of course,

to all our election coverage. That's our Women's Hour election debate. We had seven senior women debating. Also, our previous interviews with the leaders of Applied Cymru and the Green Party. That's on BBC Sounds and also on BBC iPlayer.

Many of you getting in touch about my next topic. Shall I read one? I went through menopause while my youngest son was a teenager. I think he behaved better than I did. We did manage some very happy times together. Please remember that teenagers are just a few years older

than those sweet little kids that you thought were marvellous. Treat them gently and sympathise. Well, I'll have to hear what my next guest thinks about all that. You probably heard the term matrescence around since the 70s, but you kind of begin to hear it, I feel, more and more as a concept. And it describes the process of becoming a new mother. So that transition or transformation, some might say, the emotional and the physical changes you go through after childbirth. But there is another big transition to think about. Your kids are teenagers, you're in midlife, maybe in perimenopause

or menopausal, and then you have that clash of puberty and perimenopause when your home might become a place of hormonal showdowns. But also you kind of, as the parent, need to learn how to let go of those kids as they become adults. Well, the parenting expert and childcare author Sarah Ockwell-Smith has a name for it, inspired by a Greek goddess calling it Demetrescence. Spot on. Woohoo! I'm still trying to learn how to say it myself. I came up with the idea last year and I just keep, you know, at night sometimes when I'm going to sleep, I just repeat it in my head so that I don't get it wrong in an interview. Demetrescence.

So you've written a book on how to raise a teen. And this is one of the topics that come up, this particular concept. Why do we need to think about this transition? I think, as you've just said, we're starting to talk about matrescence. So we're starting finally as a society to realise that when we become a mother, so much changes physically. So there are lasting changes that happen in our brain and also emotionally. And matrescence is an enormous transition for mothers in a society that doesn't really understand or support that very much. As you said, we're getting better at talking about it over the last couple of years, there've been a couple of books, there've been more and more media outlets talking about it.

But what we don't talk about is the fact that that's not the only transition that mothers go through. So yes, it's related to the menopause for some. Average age in the UK of having a first child is around 30.9. So 30 years, nine months. And the average age of entering the perimenopause is 46. Average age of menopause is 51, I believe. So as you quite rightly said, for a lot of women, they collide. For many, they don't because women are having babies later. So you've actually probably got quite a few women having babies and toddlers who are going through the menopause, which I can't even imagine but I have one Roz she says can I pipe up for the tiny but growing proportion of perimenopausal menopausal

mothers of toddlers raging hormones flailing limbs and sleep deprivation that said I get told I love you mummy it's a great antidote so maybe slightly easier when you've got that cute baby or toddler and you've got and I talk about in the book you know you have they're still listening to you maybe maybe but you have mother and baby groups you have your health visitor on the end of the telephone you have your antenatal classmates you have a little bit of maternity leave when you have a teenager you don't have any of that you don't have mother and teen groups you don't have teen natal classes or teenternity leave you're on your own everybody thinks you know what you're doing everybody thinks you're a pro but at the same time you've got in the book I talk a lot about the idea of holding on and letting go yeah really interesting and very moving actually what has been your personal experience so um I

have four children my youngest is 17 my oldest is 22 so So I really do write about what I've lived through. For me, I was perimenopausal. My eldest was around 15, 16 at the time, but then I was diagnosed with cancer, so I had to have a medical menopause as part of my treatment. So one day I was perimenopausal with not many signs. I guess changes to your periods are probably the first that women will see, which I had definitely had. I think maybe my husband and children would tell you differently, but I don't think I had the emotional side effects yet. But then overnight, I had two different medications that completely stopped my hormones. And that was, yeah, that was, I think, harder to cope with. And the fact that I'd been diagnosed with cancer is all of a sudden I can't sleep.

I'm constantly sweating, having constant hot flashes. My, you know, the rage that you feel with the menopause somehow, it's completely irrational. Everybody irritated me. Some might say it's rational. I don't know. And to put that alongside my children who were going through GCSEs, A-levels, starting universities, first partners, all of these massive life transitions, which were almost like banging up against mine. And I was trying to be everything for them, as I had done for the last decade and a half, two decades. You know, the focus on attachment and nurturance and being there for them and carrying their problems and what we call the mental load of motherhood and alongside that I've also I was dealing with the fact that it sounds not silly but the fact that I had to come to terms with the fact that I couldn't have more

children even though I didn't want more children it would be the last thing. But it was the end of fertility. Absolutely and I became that mad old lady who stares at mothers who walk past with a baby, with their ovaries going, maybe just one more, even though I knew I couldn't. So there was a sort of grief there. But that was also combined with the sort of grief that my children were growing up, which I was really excited and happy for them to grow up. But it was, who am I now? Who am I going to be in the future?

And it's a new phase. Yes. With the term Dem demetrescence, how did you come up with it? So I initially thought, should we have D-metrescence? But then I thought, well, that sounds incredibly negative. It sounds like there really is an emphasis on getting old. And it sounds like you're leaving motherhood behind, which is not true. You're always a mother mother if your child is 70 you're still always a mother right that you still think of them all of the time um we were on holiday in crete and i was learning a lot about greek gods and goddesses and came across the greek goddess demeter who was the goddess of the harvest so demeter had a very beautiful kind daughter called persephone and one daysephone was out and the ground opened up and Hades, the god of the underworld, stole her away to be his bride.

So Demeter, having lost Persephone, was distraught with grief. And as the goddess of the harvest, her grief manifested in crops failing. The fields were barren. And that obviously had a huge impact on the people of Greece at the time. So Zeus, who was confusingly her brother, but also Persephone's father. That's a Greek tale. Then went to bargain with Hades and said, you know, we really need Persephone back. I'm sure he didn't say it quite like that.

And Hades said, OK, so long as she hasn't eaten from the fruit of the underworld, the pomegranate. But Persephone had already eaten some of the delicious pomegranate, and she'd eaten six seeds. So Hades said, well, she has to stay in the underworld for each month, for one month, sorry, for each pomegranate seed. So that totaled six months in the underworld, and six months she could be back on earth and return to Demeter. And when Persephone was with Demeter, she was happy.

She enjoyed being with her the crops flourished the flowers bloomed you know there was a bountiful harvest and when it came back to her going back to Hades in the underworld Demeter was obviously grieving again and this you know this cycle of again holding on having your daughter being the mother being nurturing and then having to let go even though she knew she would come back, she hadn't lost her permanently. And that sort of bittersweet transition, for me, I just thought, well, that's such a good metaphor

for this stage in life. And I feel naming it after a goddess gives it also a positive spin. It's not all negative. You know, there is so much to look forward to when you have teenagers. And like you say, I'm a proponent of of gentle parenting I believe the best thing about having teenagers is having that good relationship and nurturing them did you tell your kids what you were going through um I not so much as sitting

down having a conversation but the way that I parent I've always been very honest and open and I like to do what I call pre-apologizing so if I wake up and I've had a very honest and open and I like to do what I call pre-apologising. So if I wake up and I've had a bad night and lots of hot flashes and I just feel really grumpy, I will say, I'm really tired, I didn't sleep well. If I'm mean to you or shouty at you, please don't take it personally or please give me some space. And I feel we need to be more open about motherhood, full stop,

what it feels like, our difficulties, but we also need to be much more open about motherhood, full stop, what it feels like, how difficult it is. But we also need to be much more open about the menopause with our children as well. Let me read a couple of messages that are coming in, Sarah. I'm in the menopause. I have 15 year old twins, a boy and a girl. I have a thyroid hormone disorder. Basically, I feel knackered most of the time. My hot flushes cause endless concern for my family as heating and open windows are practically a no go. Even in winter. We live in Northern Scotland.

I feel for my husband who's living amongst flying hormones from both sides. I try to be patient with my mood-swinging twins among my menopausal irritability, but it's not easy. Another, I was perimenopausal

throughout my early 30s. At 39, it was discovered I'd actually gone through the menopause. It's been a hideous experience as I felt I was going mad. We're still at the double whammy of three teenagers who were argumentative with me and a new baby who was just two. It was so difficult being woken up in the night with a two-year-old.

My sleep was so bad. Anyway, I'm now 47, tried all HRT and can't imagine being without it. But is it that you want to start a conversation about the transition? Do you feel people aren't speaking about it enough or understanding that part? So I think we need to have a name for the transition in order to talk about it. So what I noticed, I've worked with parents in some capacity or other and as a parenting author for 20 years now. And nobody spoke about matrescence until about five years ago when we started speaking about it, when we had a name.

Although we've had a name since the 70s, nobody really used it until a lady called Dr Alexandra Sachs wrote a book. And when we gave it a name, we spoke about it. Women were more honest. We campaigned for sort of more equal rights and work. I hope having a name will open the doors now to talking about Dimitrescence. Are you serious about teen-ternity instead of maternity? I mean, it's a silly name, isn't it? It's good to grab headlines.

But yes, I really genuinely feel that as a parent of teens, particularly a mother as a teen because the mothers carry the mental load so much more than the fathers I'm not being sexist it's just true I really feel if we had the ability to say to add work I really just need two weeks off to deal with it that would really help another Sarah got in touch I'm listening to your discussion about menopause at the moment while preparing for my next chemotherapy session tomorrow trying to deal with my daughter's bullying at school and a heat wave i can't stop crying i recognized your guest's perspective so well oh bless i mean all i could say there is

i understand what you're going through find me on social media send me a message and we can chat hannah from midwales says don't forget the many women have teens menopause and elderly parents needing care as kids push and pull their mums away our parents can need to reattach or change their attachment to that's so true i feel like i'm the jam in the sandwich yeah the sandwich generation just briefly before i let you go you talk about trying to let go off your teen or other people letting go what with those hormonal changes give me top three tips for them so in any book I write, and this how to raise a teen is no different. The first thing I always say is good enough is good enough.

Don't try to be perfect. It's okay to make mistakes, to screw up. Just make sure you apologize afterwards. Number two, lower the expectations of yourself. And number three, lower expectations of your teenagers. Learn about some brain development and what your teens are capable of doing. It will open your world. I love reading the book. It's called How to Raise a Teen. I don't even have a teenager, but it's really interesting. Sarah Ockwell-Smith, that's available from the 4th of July, Election Day. Thanks so much for coming in to us.

Thank you. Pleasure to speak to you. 84844, if some of that is resonating. Keep your questions coming. Right, to my next guest who has just sat down beside Sarah. This is Faith Amole. You probably know her

as an accomplished actress. You can currently see her in the Muslim music band Sikkim. We Are Lady Parts on Channel 4. People love that. Last year, she was nominated for Olivier Awards for her role in the musical

Standing at the Sky's Edge. She played Regan in King Lear at the Almeida in North London. And now she's going to become really well known for her writing too. She has won a theatre award for Black Playwrights. And last week, her first performed play premiered at the Bush Theatre in London. It's called My Father's Fable. It is a gripping story of grief, belonging and a family on the edge. I went to see it last night.

Absolutely brilliant. Faith, hold that thought. I want to play a short clip of the play and then I'm coming right to you. Is there something on my face? No, why? You are staring. Right, yeah, sorry. You have a lovely home.

Thank you. Have you lived here long? Yes and no. It was Roy's place and I moved in. Lived here for about six months. But then I accidentally left and stayed with my mum for a year. Because I slept there the night of the funeral. And then things kind of spiralled.

Oh, okay. It was small, by the way, the funeral. We didn't have too many people there, but if we'd known about you, we would have invited you. I don't know that I would have come. Right. Your mama, she never knew about me either. No, and she didn't know you were coming here till last night. Oh. I left it to the last minute to say, so that's my bad. Faith Amole, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so excited to be here. My goodness, I loved the play last night. That is literally the best news ever. That's just brilliant. It was raucous. Yeah. Is it like that every night? It is.

I think that's, I mean, I think that's what theatre should be. I think it should be, it should be a conversation. It should invoke something out of you, right? The Bush audiences are quite particular in that they are like, they're with you. They are with you. They are answering when something happens. There's this response of different things.

The laughter was so loud at certain points that the actors had to take a second. Okay, come on, guys. I've got a scene to do it's brilliant oh I love it so much you know what it was so I I had a lot of fun writing it I I love you know you and all these different moments and they just hit so well and you're writing all these things and then and then you rehearse it and it goes into this process but getting the audience in they're they're another character in in in this or there were some characters there last night because and they connect with it so well like well like whether you're connecting to a different character or to the story you would be surprised at how many people are like that

character's me or that story's mine or I hear this the dialogue was so effortless oh thank you I was like how does she write it like that? I was blown away by it. Just the kind of the sway between the various characters. It was like something that you're eavesdropping on in a way so natural. For those that haven't read about it yet, just very briefly, what is the story about? OK, so we have our piece, our character piece. And she finds out a year after her father has died that he had another son in nigeria and she never knew about him and we begin the play on the day that

he is coming to visit her and he's coming over to england she lives with her partner roy um and so they're preparing the house for him peace's mother favor does not want this boy to come the iconic favor um doesn't want this boy to come here. And so Bolu, her brother, arrives and it's pretty much just chaos, really, from there. And we just delve into these nuances of family. Of family and also identity and where you come from. Yeah. Particularly with that British Nigerian vein, which I just loved, as the audience did as well. I was very struck by the relationship

between Favour, the mother, and Peace, who is the daughter, in the story. What are you basing them on? In the inception of the whole play, I mean, I wrote this play in 2020, I wanted to have a conversation about identity and the immigrant experience. And I felt the best way I could make this authentic was to channel it through Nigerian culture, because that's what I've grown up with. But I really wanted to just talk about how we feel, sometimes feeling a bit like, we have all this history behind us of where we've come from.

And we have this place we have we have this relationship with where we are now. And so it's really interesting because these characters became more than they became more than archetypes. I wanted them to be and whichever. And so favour is, I guess, for peace. Favour for peace is the idea that everything is fine and you do not need to know anything else about yourself, you know. And somehow, in a way, leaving your past behind behind and I think that will resonate with many people yes I mean in this it crystallizes in the sense of peace I don't know not making jolliffe rise you're not speaking Yoruba yeah but for others it will be other you know I don't know it could be a working class

background that they leave behind whatever it might be and how much do you stay connected to your roots I have so many um people that have come in like friends from all different cultures you know like yeah it's for me I'm like we have to embed it in something that I recognize or like we have to or that I've researched heavily because I don't want to talk about something I don't understand and so that's why I was like these characters are Nigerian but so many friends and people and, you know, people that I really respect who have come in and been like, I understand these relationships. I understand that push and pull between what people want for me and what I want for myself and disappointing people that were before me and, and what I'm setting up for those that come after me, you know, so many people

understand what it's like to feel like that character. Featuring two worlds. Yeah yeah. What about Favour? Is she based on somebody? She's not based on anyone you know what my mum and dad still haven't seen it yet and they are going to when they watch this play they're going to be like well who is that? Because it's Rockyaki Ayola who plays Favour. Absolutely iconic. Fabulous. And watching it as well, I'm thinking for you must have been so interesting to see how your characters and the stories were interpreted, number one, by the director and actors. That's Rebecca Amaral is the director. How was that process for you?

It was so interesting. I mean, at some point, what I'm really proud of is, you know, this is my first produced play. And so you have to, the Bushes are really safe space to give something to in that they really do champion new writing. And they are all about adding more voices to this theatrical industry. And so I felt really safe in that way. You write certain things and then you watch it interpreted and you have to go, oh my gosh, okay, I never saw it that way, but that is actually really cool.

Or this is a really beautiful way into, this is a really beautiful way to jump into that story and that narrative. What surprised you? Was there any particular? What did surprise me? What I really enjoyed, there's a way of writing it, particularly the way the sound design and lighting design.

Oh, yeah. It's so, what's really beautiful. I mean, our sound designer, Zana, and our composer, Ayana Witter-Johnson, wonderful. And our lighting designer, Simi Sola. They're really brilliant in that they've really done their research into, they've really gone and looked into Nigerian culture and music and sound. And so you have this play that's really naturalistic, but then there's this

mythical element on top. Which is a gripping part of the writing. Yeah, it just changes it, It splits it from being something. So we present the audience with something they know and they've seen. And then we pull them into a totally different world. And that was just really exciting to watch. I felt I was sitting every time I'd go into the tech rehearsals and I'd just start crying when I'd seen what they do with it. And it was actually just a really beautiful thing. I think collaboration is incredible and amazing.

It was amazing how the audience all went together there. I need to ask, actually, here's a message. I saw my father's fable on Friday night and the writing is so, so good. Congratulations to Faith for such a stunning debut. Kaleidoscope. Yes. You've written, is that in production? It's not in production

yet but it did it won the Alfred Fagan last year and we're working on it I want to ask you as well

when I have a couple more minutes with you you talked about safe spaces there in the Bush Theatre you signed

the letter of solidarity with Francesca Amawuda Rivers condemning the online racial abuse of Francesca who was cast as Juliet in a London West End production of Romeo and Juliet. Why was it important to sign that letter? Well, I mean, first and foremost, Francesca is an absolutely fantastic actor.

She's truly fabulous. And I do not understand why you wouldn't want that girl to be the lead of your show. And, you know, she's a benefit to any production but also I think I'm just for me and I think a lot of people are done with the idea that um certain people do not deserve to be seen or are not worthy of being loved on stage I do not understand I couldn't understand you talked about this yeah about a black woman being worthy of love yeah and that's actually that's a really big part of what i've written in my father's fable as well i i think we are we are worthy of being seen and being loved and that's really what that rhetoric was that we were seeing with the online trolling they were saying not her you know she doesn't deserve it not her we want somebody who looks different to be loved and i'm like no I think we're kind of

done with that I think everybody deserves to be loved everybody deserves to be seen she was she auditioned she was fantastic she was chosen and she is there and and it is our job to to embrace her and champion her we should be adding as many faces to the picture as possible. Faces, that comes up in my fall, these people as well. Before I let you go, is there a character within the four on stage that you particularly identify with? I really do feel like all of them, I love aspects of all of them. I've given, I've probably given,

I've given Favour my savage humour. She's savage. She's absolutely savage and I really enjoy that. I've given, and then the, I would say that Peace, I didn't grow up speaking Yoruba and it was really interesting

to write that relationship between Bolu and Peace. Which is the half-brother who comes back from Nigeria who does speak Yoruba. Who does speak it and it was so, it is one of the greatest joys in my life,

writing that Bolu character. It truly is. Some of the things he gets to say is really, it's really interesting watching the audience journey with him. And then at some point he says, let me speak. And he gets to speak and you get to hear his voice. And it is, yeah. And that for me was one of the most important parts of the play.

It's fabulous. Faith O'Malley. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming in. Can't recommend it highly enough and I know my listeners felt the same who have seen it. Now tomorrow I'll be speaking to Sophie Grable, best known here in the UK for her role as Detective Sarah Lunt in the Danish crime drama The Killing.

She's going to be joining me talking about portraying a woman with a serious mental illness in her latest film, Rose. So come back, join us tomorrow, right here for Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.