Woman's Hour - Women who dig for the truth

Episode Date: December 26, 2023

A special Woman’s Hour episode all about women who dig for the truth.Marianne Asher-Chapman from Holts Summit, Missouri has been searching for her daughter, Angie Yarnell, for more than 20 years now. Angie went missing in 2003. Her husband, Michael pled guilty to involuntary manslaughter in 2009. He was released in 2013. He has so far refused to tell Marianne or the authorities where he buried Angie - and Marianne has been unable to find her - despite physically digging in the property where she thinks her daughter may have been buried. She joins Nuala to discuss what she’s done to find her daughter and how she’s now helping other families with missing relatives.Terri Lyne Carrington, a multi-Grammy-winning drummer and jazz artist, saw a distinct lack of songs by female composers being learned by jazz musicians - and decided to fix it. As a ‘gender justice advocate’ she decided to create a project, the New Standards: 101 Lead Sheets By Women Composers, and an accompanying album which won a Grammy, to shine a light on female jazz composers. She joins Nuala to discuss the project and jazz and gender justice on our special programme about women digging for the truth.Many of us have stayed up late, spending the night scrolling through the internet, looking for clues or information we might be on the hunt for. But have you ever felt like you need help to find out something? Someone to confirm your worst fears or set you free? Alison Harris is a private investigator and began her career in investigations later in life. She speaks to Nuala about how being a PI isn’t always the glamorous job we imagine - and what it’s like to find the truth for people.In 2018, Helen McLaughlin and Karen Whitehouse got married in Amsterdam - but they had their day forever changed in their memories, after someone defecated on the floor of a toilet cubicle in the ladies’ bathroom. They enlisted the help of their friend, ‘Detective’ Lauren Kilby to find out who did it - and why. Karen Whitehouse, one of the brides, and ‘Detective’ Lauren join Nuala to talk about their unusual investigation - and why they couldn’t let it go.A name you may be familiar with when it comes to the search for the truth is historian, Philippa Langley. Known now by many as the woman who found King Richard III underneath a car park in Leicester, she’s turned her attention to his nephews, the missing Princes, who for centuries have been said to have been murdered by their uncle, King Richard, after he took the throne. Her new research suggests otherwise - and she joins Nuala to talk all about the search for the truth and what it means to her.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. So good to be back with you and I hope you are having a great week. Today we're going to be spending an hour on women who dig for the truth, either in their personal or their professional lives. They might be revealing secrets, solving mysteries, or picking apart set narratives, some with some deeply serious tones and some more fun and lighthearted. I think my special skill set is just always just taking things going one step too far. So it's just who I am, really.

So it kind of came naturally to work with Detective Lauren and use some of our unique tricks to crack the case. I mean, I've chased people around hedges. I've driven after people singing Dolly Parton at the top of my voice, not realising my dashcam had sound. I believe that truth matters. And I think it matters whether that's today, tomorrow or 500 years ago. In 2018, and I asked the students to play some music written by women and they could not really find any. We meet multi-Grammy winning jazz drummer, Terry Lynn Carrington, who went on a mission to uncover the women who composed jazz standards.

Some doubted if she would be able to find that money, but she did and she'll tell us all about her musical discoveries. I also speak to the mother who will not rest until she finds the remains of her daughter who was killed 20 years ago. Marianne Asher Chapman has gone out with her shovel literally digging trying to find the remains of her beloved Angie. We'll talk to her. We also have a woman who decided in midlife to change career and become a private investigator trying to track down the truth. And some of you may be familiar with a podcast that's all about trying to find out who pooped on the floor at a wedding. I know, yuck, but it is very funny. So we'll speak to their detective

and one of the brides from that fateful day. We also have Philippa Langley. She's a writer, producer and Ricardian, maybe best known for her role in the discovery in 2012 Exhumation of Richard III. Philippa is not done with digging yet, as you'll hear. And I think you'll all agree they are intriguing. We've also been hearing about your experiences of digging for the truth. I'll be reading some of your messages later. And as this is a recorded programme, we cannot include any of your comments live, but you can get in touch with us on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website. First off, I want to introduce you to someone extraordinary. I first met her in 2018 and was so struck then by her tenacity and also her spirit.

And when we began talking about and creating this programme, my next guest came immediately to mind. Her name is Marianne Asher Chapman. She's from Holt Summit, Missouri, right outside the capital, Jefferson City. And for 20 years now, she has been searching for her daughter, Angie Yarnell. Angie went missing back in 2003. Her husband, Michael, was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter for Angie's death in 2009. Michael was released in 2013. So far, Michael has refused to tell Marianne or the authorities where he buried Angie. And Marianne has been unable to find her remains despite physically digging and searching for two decades. Marianne joins me now to discuss why she has done what she has done and also how she's now helping other families with missing relatives.

Welcome to Woman's Hour, Marianne. Thank you for having me. Now, this program is all about digging for the truth. I mentioned you've physically been doing that with a shovel for 20 years. Why did you take that route? Because I just couldn't get anybody else to help me.

And it's just, I'm her mother. I need to find Angie. And what has it felt like physically to do that day in, day out? It's just the strangest thing. I've spent years going down to the old property where they lived, and I just take a shovel and I dig holes. I've crawled through caves, I've dug at the bottom of sinkholes, old burnout houses. I just keep a shovel in my trunk or if I get in that area, I go search for Angie.

And at first I was so afraid I would find her. And now I'm afraid I will never find her. You know, my listeners might notice that your voice is a little strained and I really appreciate you speaking to us because I know it can be a little difficult because you recently did get some news about your health if you're okay to share that. Yes I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. I go to St. Louis day after tomorrow to see about getting proton treatment started. There will be chemotherapy as well. Either way, this is going to be a hard winter. And so I won't, I doubt I'll be down looking for Angie throughout this winter, which is tough, but it's just, I just have to get through this.

But I've been told there is no cure, and it's inoperable for me. So I fear, my biggest fear is really dying before I find Angie. And I know countless mothers. I have Missouri Missing Organization. And I've had it for many, many years. And I've seen other mothers pass before their child was found. And I've always felt really bad for them. But I do fear this will happen with me too.

But I don't give up. it's very sad I wish you all the best with with your health and with the treatment that you will have but that is very striking Marianne that you were afraid of finding her now you're afraid of not finding her. And I'm also thinking about you physically have to stop digging. And you tell me, but I imagine you have a connection to Angie when you're looking for her, like a physical connection.

I do. I'm always looking for signs. And I know that sounds silly, but when you're doing it, I feel just such a desperation. It's almost frantic, a feeling of being frantic desperation. The first time I saw from a distance what I thought might be her. When I got closer, I saw that it was just an old turtle shell that had been bleached out. I thought it was her skull. And I was so relieved

it wasn't her. But all these years later, I hope I do find her skull. I have to find my daughter. And I just spend my days helping other families with missing loved ones now. And I found a Missouri missing in 2007, and we help a lot of families. So that's why right now it's deer season, and I'm always hoping maybe a hunter will stumble across your remains this year. Yes, and I'm wondering, because I can hear from you, of course, that you feel that the clock is ticking in some ways because you have to go and have this treatment and won't be able to be out there day in day out and I'm wondering how that is emotionally to not be able to do the thing that has become part of your life I mean I met you at this stage I think five years ago but of course you're almost doing this for two decades now and to not be there with your shovel or going searching I mean what does that mean for your

peace of mind, really, when it comes to Angie? It bothers me a lot, but I have a task at hand I have to handle. A little before Angie went missing, I had throat cancer. And this is a different kind of cancer, but it's in my throat. Angie was there for me.

She wouldn't have left me. But I just kind of feel like she's hanging out with me now through this battle as well. Tell us a little bit more about your daughter, Angie, what she was like. Well, she was 28 years old when she died, and she was a very loving, she was a poet and an artist. She was born in the wrong generation, but she liked to think of herself as sort of a hippie. She liked to live off the land,

and she had chickens and rabbits and worm farm, and she was really a very good person. She was a very funny little girl, and Off the magic dragon that was her song she was little i can't hear it now but i just miss her a lot i'm sure i'm sure and i'm so sorry for your loss i know you've helped other families as you mentioned with miss missing. Have any of the other mothers done what you do in that sense of literally digging, looking for their loved ones? I never hear of that. But I can't imagine that some do not.

But the ones that I know, I don't know of that. There may be a search here and there. I don't know of anybody that actually literally digs with the shovel. Yeah. Do you remember the first day that you thought, that's what I'm going to do because it is an unusual thing to do, right? It is. But there's a lot of land down in that vicinity. And I don't know how I couldn't. I just couldn't not. I have to look for Angie, period.

And even if I found one fingernail and it matched my DNA, which is in a lab in northern Texas, it would be Angie. When we spoke a number of years ago, we were speaking because of the similarities of your story to a film that was starring Frances McDormand, Three Billboards in Ebbing, Missouri, and it showed a woman searching for her daughter and putting up billboards and also digging to try and find the remains. The filmmakers did not come to you, you told me, or wasn't based on your story, even though there were so many similarities. How did it feel to see that story so similar to your own on the big screen it was a strange thing but there were so many similarities even her daughter was named Angie as well um I put up billboards too I've done many many things over the years to look for Angie but there was a lot of similarities I do like to point out I never did blow up the police department like that woman did to look crunchy. But there was a lot of similarities. I do like to point out I never did blow up the police department like that woman did.

However, you know, I put the billboards up. What was the strangest thing, though? My girlfriend and I went to see the movie, and we were watching it, and there was this scene where this woman is tending to some flowers that she had potted underneath one of the billboards. And she happened to look up just in time, and there was this big, beautiful doe just looking at her very close, and they just looked at each other for

a while. My girlfriend grabbed my hand and said, oh my gosh, because I've never spoke about this in general out in public, but when Angie went missing, deer started coming to me, herds of deer, baby deer, deer everywhere I looked. My one friend said she was afraid to ride with me in the car because she was afraid we would hit a deer

they were everywhere I looked and when that scene happened I just felt that Angie truly had something to do with this movie Marianne thank you for speaking to us I wish you all the best that Angie truly had something to do with this movie. Marianne, thank you for speaking to us. I wish you all the best in all your endeavours and maybe we will speak again.

But thank you for spending some time with us here on Woman's Hour. Thank you. Marianne Asher Chapman. And if you've been affected by the issues in this interview, you can find BBC Action Line links on the Woman's Hour website. And you can also share your thoughts on anything that you hear on this programme. I want to turn next on Woman's Hour to a little music and to a woman who saw a distinct lack of songs by female composers

being learned by jazz musicians. So she went in search of them to shine a light on their work. Terry Lynn Carrington is a multi-Grammy Award winning jazz drummer and educator. And it's her gender justice advocacy that led her to try and rectify the lack of recognition of women in jazz. She created the New Standards 101 lead sheets by women composers and also had an album that went with it, New Standards Volume 1, which won a Grammy. Terry Lynn, welcome to the programme. Thank you. Nice to be here. So lovely to have a little music there as well.

What made you want to set up your New Standards project? Tell us a little bit more about that thought process. Well, I started an institute at Berkeley College of Music called the Berkeley Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. And we had our opening reception in 2018. And I asked the students to play some music written by women, and they could not really find any. And there's a book called The Real Book that most students go to, and professionals go to, to have a common repertoire. And when we looked through that book, there was really only one song, which is Willow Weep for Me, written by Anne Ronell.

That was written by a woman. So I knew that day that my first initiative with this institute would be to create a book that was in the format, a similar format to the real book, where people could look at one or two pages and have recognizable forms and things that people could easily play if they were on a show together, on a gig together. So you came up with 100. I came up with 100. Well, that was my next question. Was it difficult to find the 100? Well, not at all. In fact, the publisher, when they agreed to do the book, which is Berkeley Press and Hal Leonard,

and Hal Leonard is, I think, the biggest publisher in music for these types of educational books. They said, well, you know, you could do 25 songs and we'd still like to do the book. Do you, you know, it's pretty ambitious to do 100. And are there even 100 women composers? So then I said, well, this is why we need to do the book. So yes, there are more than 100 women composers. But this is a very, very good start. How did you decide who made the cut? Well, I started with people that I had played with, and I've been playing professionally for over 40 years. So I started with just many friends and I probably got at least half of the people that way. And then I looked at who was missing. I wanted to make sure it was international to

some degree. I wanted to make sure it had different styles covered. I wanted to make sure there were easy songs for high school students, as well as complicated songs for high school students as well as complicated songs for your consummate professional. And so once I started rounding things off, I asked friends for recommendations and some people, I just really appreciated their artistry and, you know, asked them to send a few things for me to choose from. Some people, I already knew which song I wanted and others that are really well-known composers like Carla Bley, who just passed away, and Maria Schneider, I would take anything they offered. Yes, I was wondering about that as well. Where did you draw the line, so to speak? But let's talk for a moment about another woman,

American jazz vocalist and songwriter, Abby Lincoln, who wrote this song, Throw It Away. Why did you include that one? What does that, what meaning does that have for you? Well, Abby was a really amazing songwriter and her music is almost like a folk music, a jazz folk music. And she was very prolific. So I wanted to include her for sure. But I picked that song because, well, just because I love it. And also because it was her most recognizable song. And I wanted some songs to be recognizable in the book. And some of the, of course, some of the composers are recognizable names as well. So I wanted people to be able to look at it and see something they recognize, but also to discover new people. So I also have some recent graduates from Berkeley. There's about three people that had just graduated that are in the book as well.

How wonderful for them, though, like to be with some people that are so graduated that are in the book as well. How wonderful for them though to be with some people that are so established so you have both for the people who are using it and also the people that are in it a real mix and a real diversity. The name Coltrane

many of our listeners will know but they might know the name Alice Coltrane and Blue Nile. Tell us a little bit about Alice Coltr the name Alice Coltrane and Blue Nile. Tell us a little bit about Alice Coltrane. Alice Coltrane was an amazing musician. She played piano and she also played harp. And she was married, of course, to John Coltrane. And often women artists that are married to well-known, iconic male artists often get overshadowed. And Alice just actually became

a Downbeat Lifetime Achievement Award winner. And it was her first time on the cover of Downbeat magazine just this past year. And I think she's been gone, I don't know, maybe eight to 10 years. But I think that a lot of people on the inside of jazz know her. I mean, she's still iconic to most of us, but not, you know, not like her husband. So I'm happy that, you know, we got to celebrate her as well. Are there any women that you particularly remember listening to growing up? I know you came from a family steeped in jazz. You know, there weren't a whole lot of women, you know, artists that I listened to. Sometimes some organ players.

Most women, as far as instrumentalists, played piano or organ, things that you could play in church or in the parlor. It was acceptable to take piano lessons, but not to play drums or acoustic bass or saxophone or trumpet. These things, it happened, but it just didn't happen too regularly in the 40s. Forgive me for stepping on you there, because as I was listening, I'm thinking, you know, when we think of jazz and women mistakenly perhaps we think of the singers. Exactly exactly I mean it's an unwritten narrative that men play jazz and women sing it and so that's what my institute is trying to address a cultural shift and even though it's better it's not it's not equitable at all. So we're still plugging away

at that. Yeah. How would you describe the picture now? Well, I mean, you have polls that come out and there may be 40 to 50% women in the top 10 of an NPR poll. But if you look at the top 100, it's not the same. It's not 40 to 50 percent. So we have to look past the exceptional women that rise to the top and really look at the whole culture and the whole scene in general. And when those numbers start to shift, then we'll know that we're making some progress. And do you see it with young girls, young women that come to the Berkeley College? Well, I see, definitely I see a lot of talented young women. Our institute is about 50-50 because there's still so many more men playing jazz. So there's more male students that want to be in our institute.

And I think that's great too because this work is not women's work and these young men have to do this work for gender justice as well and the good thing is a lot of them are rejecting the hyper masculinity that's been found in the music so that's wonderful but we still have to work hard to even have 50 percent women in our program. So it's still a challenge, but I do feel that it's shifting. And I used to think not in my lifetime would it actually become really equitable. But now I'm feeling a little different. Oh, what a hopeful note to end on. Lovely to speak to you, Terry Lynn Carrington.

Really appreciate it. As we talk about women who dig. Some of you got in touch with what you've been digging for in search of the truth. Here's Catherine on Instagram. She told us that she solved a decades old family secret through the combination of a DNA test, research and sheer luck.

Catherine says, My dad was a wartime baby born in 1940 to a single mother who sadly died in an accident when he was two. He was adopted by his aunt and never knew who his father was. My dad died many years ago, never knowing. Despite not having any name to go on, I was able to track down some distant family members and was able, through a lot of digging,

to find the identity of my grandfather. It was so amazing to finally solve this family mystery. Thank you for that, Catherine. We're going to hear more also of other experiences that listeners have. And a family often comes into it trying to get to the bottom of some of those secrets, perhaps that just were never revealed. So as we talk about digging for the truth, I want to turn to private investigators. I think, particularly listening to Catherine there, that some of you maybe think

that you'd make a brilliant PI. Maybe you're a whiz at extracting information online about people or events. But when people cannot get to the bottom of what they want or need to know, they call someone like my next guest, Alison. Ali Harris is a private investigator. She's based in Oxfordshire and she made this career change later in her life.

She joins me now on Woman's Hour to talk about it. Ali, welcome to the programme. So tell me, how did you do the switch? What were you doing before? I worked with adults with learning disabilities and people with dementia. Yeah, so quite a switch. Quite a switch. And was private investigation, I don't know, a hobby on the side or something? I mean, were you really into true crime or were you the person? Into true crime. Were you? Yeah. I got mugged at knife point and I wasn't scared.

I was just so angry that someone thought they could do that to me. So I chased him down the road and that's the last time I've ever run, to be fair. And so that got me into studying psychology and then I did criminal psychology and forensics and profiling and yeah. So you wanted to know the motivation for why somebody had done this to you. But with the work that you're doing, it's not really about motivation, is it? You're just trying to find out what they did or what they didn't do.

Would that be fair? Yes, more what they have done than what they haven't done to be fair. Okay, so tell me what sort of cases are we talking about? Dogs that have been dognapped, missing people. Obviously, everyone wants to know about infidelity. That is quite the hot topic. Yeah, everything. Finding people who owed money. The list is endless. So you put yourself into that sort of situation. I was talking about, you know, people searching online. Is most of your work, are you a bit of an online sleuth or are you like out on the streets, pounding the streets

and using up shoe leather? Yeah, it is done a lot online. But yeah, I have had my forays into surveillance, which is the most unglamorous thing ever what's it like what do you do boring um I I mean I've chased people around hedges I've driven after people singing Dolly Parton at the top of my voice not realizing my dash cam had sound yeah I made a few rookie mistakes along the way. What's a rookie mistake? Facing someone around a bush. Because I'm thinking, though, that means you're coming face to face with people.

And I'm also thinking that you are potentially revealing something about their life that they don't want known, whatever it is, that they've stolen something or that they've been unfaithful. I mean, do you ever feel that you could be at risk, that it's a dangerous job? No, it's not dangerous. Normally I stay quite well hidden. And as you can see, it's not as though I blend in quite easily. But I think because of how I look, people just wouldn't believe the job that I did. Could you describe how you think you look to our listeners? I've got short red hair, bright red hair, red lipstick and I've got a voice that could penetrate at like 200 feet I'm sure.

So you don't look like Magnum PI, what we might be used to when it comes to private investigators. That's kind of the first one that comes to my mind, but I'm showing my age there. Do you use any particular techniques in your work? Is it the same techniques, whether it's infidelity or dog napping, or do you have like this array of tools and systems and what you employ? My best tool is a dog lead. Why? And pictures of my dog.

Because I go and knock on people's doors with my phone poised to camera and just ask them if they've seen my lost dog. And so they respond to you and people are concerned about your dog or whatever it might be when you're actually filming them. Right.

This is Woman's Hour. Are there many women in this line of work no no i think that's what makes it quite unique there are more women i mean the main people that come into private investigation are like ex-detectives or army you know things things like that military background and I don't come from that kind of background I'm more not a Miss Marple but um you know I just come a different way so I'm not built a solid muscle ready to tackle anyone I'm more there to talk them to death do you think women can bring anything different to the table than men as an investigator? Yes because I think we're more wily

than men. Men aren't very good at telling fibs despite what they may think and I think women are. I'm going to throw that one out to my listeners let them respond as they will. Do more men or women come to you looking for you to help them? More women come to me emotionally to find missing people and things like that and for infidelity. But quite a lot of men come for infidelity as well, which is people don't expect that. They think it's going to be all women, but it's about 50-50 for infidelity. But I'm thinking if you do discover it, I mean, that's a really tough thing to have to go back to that person that employed you and to tell them. I know, but they've employed me to actually know for sure. And so people have to realise that once I've told them that genie is out the bottle and it can't be changed.

So they have to be sure that they really do want to know. I think some people might be listening and thinking, oh, I think I want to do that job. You might be inspiring career changes. But what about people who do want to find information and they're not going to become a full-time private investigator? What can they do? Go online. Yeah. We have different software, so we can see more online than probably you would be able to. But yeah, because however people think they don't need the footprint, unfortunately they do.

You go through friends of friends to search for people. So, yeah, you can find out a lot, especially in this day and age. Kind of a two sides to this question. When you tell people you're a private investigator, how do they react? And part two, does being a private investigator affect how you see people? They're quite surprised when they know what I do. No, no, it doesn't. Because I don't know, you've just got to trust your instinct, whether you're a private investigator or not my instinct has stood me in good stead so no it doesn't make me more suspicious

or less suspicious really. Are you suspicious of people in general? I guess I am a bit I said otherwise I wouldn't be very good at my job if I believed what everybody said at face value. Ali Harris private private investigator, you're going to stay with us. I know you're going to come back because I have a question for you a little later in the programme as we talk about women who dig really interesting stuff. Thank you for that. Some more messages from you about women digging for the truth. An anonymous one here says, I found an Acheulean hand axe in my garden in southern England. It's been verified as being approximately 500,000 years old.

I showed it to my neighbour and he produced a similar one he found in his garden. So likely a settlement existed. And one from Chris. We live in an 1842 college in a market town in the Peak District. Shortly after moving in during 2011, my husband dug up what appeared to be a World War I hand grenade. After a hasty due process, the bomb squad arrived, diverted traffic, requisitioned a nearby field

and declared the grenade to be a Victorian railing finial. It's a new word for me. An ornament from a grave or similar. My husband was subsequently referred to locally as Dynamite Dorsen. Isn't that great? Now, in 2018, Helen McLaughlin and Karen Whitehouse

got married in Amsterdam. But they had their day forever changed in their memories after faecal matter was found on the floor of a toilet cubicle at their wedding. They enlisted the help of their friend, detective, I'll put that in inverted commas, Lauren Kilby, to find out who did it and why, and created a podcast to follow the investigation. It is called, forgive me, Who Shat on the Floor at My Wedding?

Karen Whitehouse, one of the brides, and Detective Lauren join me now to talk all about it. You're both so welcome to Woman's Hour. Karen, let me start with you. Can you set the scene for us? What was your wedding day like? Was it everything you imagined it would be? Well, it started off pretty classy. It changed a little bit later on that evening. But

I'm a film producer by profession. So everything was organised meticulously. We got married on this lovely boat in Amsterdam in summer. And, you know, we put a lot of time and effort into organising this lovely day. I'd like a, you know we put a lot of time and effort into organizing this lovely day i'd like a you know champagne reception on the top deck with a jazz band and a sit-down dinner and yeah i mean it was all going very well until after the speeches where i was quite nervous about my speech and um i was like writing i hadn't drunk anything to that point. And I thought, right, I need to pop down to the ladies' bathroom, which was down a flight of stairs. And I was just, you know, happy, ready to enjoy the day.

And lo and behold, as I entered the ladies' bathroom, I saw two rather strange things. One was a man in the ladies' bathroom and the second was a rather firm poop not in a toilet cubicle but quite far away from any toilet in the middle of the floor so honestly I didn't really know how to compute that but the immediate thought was a it's pretty early on for someone to be really drunk to have that kind of accident and it. And I just thought it must have been done on purpose. So we obviously had to work out and find out who did it.

So in comes Detective Lauren, your good friend. Lauren, did you see that poop too that Karen described? Or did you just hear about it afterwards? No, I was actually at the wedding as a guest, not as a detective at that point, just a normal run-of-the-mill guest. But I had no idea that that had happened. So that obviously means I was not a suspect. But it kind of transpired a few weeks after the wedding when people were all talking about this incident that had occurred at Helen and Karen's wedding and yeah I was quite shocked to hear that that had happened also yeah just on a boat enclosed crime scene had to have been someone that Helen or Karen loved dearly

which is the worst part and you being the good friend that you are, decided to take on the mantle of being the detective in this saga? Yes, well, I think if they had it their way, they would have probably paid a real private investigator like Ellie. But unfortunately, they had no money. So I essentially agreed to take on this case pro bono. They were lucky I was unemployed at the time. Otherwise, I would have said no thanks. And yeah, I just thought that sounds like a pretty good job. And yeah, we got underway with the investigation.

And a podcast at the same time. Did you always have an ambition, Lauren, to be a detective? No, not really. Not really. But you went with it quite gung-ho. And Karen, did you have any kind of investigative experience? Because you are also, when we listen to the podcast, very involved in each step of discovery, I suppose we'd call it. No, but I think my special skill set is just always just taking things,

going one step too far. So it's just who I am, really. So it kind of came naturally to work with Detective Lauren and use some of our unique tricks to crack the case. Yes, to crack the case. And we can talk about that in a moment.

And spoiler alert for those who have not listened to the podcast yet, that might be coming up. But there is the focus on one suspect hink that you mentioned he was the man in the toilet that you saw karen was he was he was and i think lauren you did focus in on him quite quickly but it's not always easy to really be able to convict. I also put that in inverted commas, one of the guests. What were the challenges? Well, yeah, I think you're very correct in saying I wasn't able to convict.

I also wasn't able to get a warrant. I wasn't able to kind of properly, you know, interrogate people. So obviously not being a real qualified i mean i am a real detective but i'm not a qualified detective i had to kind of cut corners and um use certain skills that a normal real qualified detective would use but yeah hink is and was a massive suspect i mean the fact that he spent four hours in the ladies' bathroom of a wedding where he had food and drinks delivered to him. He was eating chips and mayo in the bathroom and he was having drinks delivered to him.

And then he suspiciously is the hero who cleaned it up. Yeah, it raises a lot of questions. But with the podcast, I was very impressed, not just at your level of determination, Lauren, but the range of characters that were prepared to help you, a psychic, a naval expert, forensic scientists, all trying to whittle down the possible poop traitors. Were you surprised, Karen, at the amount of people that got on board? No pun intended. At first, yes.

But actually, it was really lovely when we reached out to them because all of these amazing experts work in quite some dark criminal cases. We had a forensic psychologist who deals with arson and mass murder. And when they have an opportunity to work on something fun and lighthearted, they honestly just jumped at the chance. Slash, they did mention, you know, it was career suicide a little bit, but we kind of brushed that under the carpet. Lauren, you even found a brilliant freelance codebreaker. Yes, I did. I found a codebreaker because I was sent an anonymous message to my house in an envelope.

And it was kind of this weird cryptic poem. And I thought, right, we need an expert to assess this because I can't. I don't know what this is. I would have just thrown it in the bin, but it's evidence. So you've got to look at it. So I asked a person who is a very good at cryptic crosswords. And that person turned out to be my mother. And what she ended up doing is essentially embarrassing me on the podcast

by Googling the poem. And then the result was there in Google. So I could have just done that. We did hear from Ali and we'll hear from her in a moment that there is a lot of information to be found online. But I mentioned spoilers, so turn the programme down for a moment, listener, if you don't want to know this next fact about what happened. It's a cold case.

It's not resolved, Lauren and Karen. Lauren, you're smiling, but are you smiling inside? I'm smiling because it's actually a lukewarm case. So it's not going to just be closed and we're just going to turn our back on it. There are still people to interrogate and I think we probably won't rest until we have the culprit and they have come clean and said it was them who did it the problem is the more famous this gets and the more people that listen to it

the less likely they are to kind of go into a podcast and say hey I defecated on the floor at your wedding sorry about that um but yeah it is a, it's a lukewarm case for now, but who knows, we might reopen it. I would say though, if the Poopatrator is tuning in and listening to this very show, we just want to reassure you, if you do come forward, we will celebrate you and we'll do an award ceremony, probably give you a sash.

We won't name and shame. It will be a sort of a celebration of your actions. Good move. Very good move trying to get that person to come forward and confess, I think. But I want to bring Ali Harris,

our private investigator, back in who we were speaking to a moment ago on Woman's Hour. Do you have any tips for Lauren and Karen on what they could do to close their case,

to make it from lukewarm to hot? The only thing you could do is just follow people to the toilet, I think. That's all you can do. Just before I let you go, any more investigations? We do. We are actually currently working on season two

where we actually decided to have a bit of a break from faecal crimes. And we're moving on to a new mystery, which is launching next year in April. So we're busy working out. And all I will say is it's not a cold case. We solve it. So our success rate is 50 percent when you take into account season two. Well, best of luck with that. And Karen and Lauren and Ali, thank you all so much. Let us talk about some more digging.

A name you may be familiar with when it comes to the search for truth is historian Philippa Langley. She's known now by many as the woman who found King Richard III underneath a car park in Leicester, no less. She's turned her attention now, however, to his nephews, known as the Missing Princes, Edward V and his younger brother Richard,

who for centuries have been said to have been murdered by their uncle, King Richard, after he took the throne. She has new research. She thinks there's a different story to be told. And she's here with me, I'm happy to say, to talk about her search for this truth. Philippa, welcome, welcome. I mean, just thinking about the amount of research that you do,

can you give me a window into what your day looks like when all you do is dig? Yeah, maybe let me tell you where I'm at at the moment in terms of the Missing Princess Project, because it's been going now for, well, it's probably nearly eight years. And I've got 300,000 files on my computer. And they destroyed three computers, three computers just gave up the ghost because of so many files. So I had to have a supercomputer built. And I need a supercomputer because I have to cross-check and reference everything that comes into the project. So it's big, it's pretty big. And I've got 300 members around the world searching archives.

But just that volume of information and excavating through it, what's it like on a day to day basis? I mean, do you get up out of bed every morning full of vim and vigor and ready to attack it? Or is it at times just like, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I have X amount of work to do? It's a mixture of both, actually. But it's it actually sounds more difficult than it is because we are looking for very specific things. So it's very easy to trawl the information that you get and looking for key words, key times, key figures, key names.

So it sounds horrendous, but a lot of the information that I have probably hasn't helped much. But it's there just in case we need it. So you're looking for these various nuggets that will bring you one step closer to finding out the truth. My understanding is, and you talk about the seven, eight years working on The Princes, that you got interested in them or started thinking about moving on to this project right after the burial of Richard III. Have I got that right? You've got that bang on. Yeah. Just when I thought everything was over and done, another project arrived.

And talk me through, if you can, about your ambition and drive with the princes now to try and find out actually what happened what's behind it your thought process do you know i think what's really behind it is i i believe that truth matters and i think it matters whether that's today tomorrow or 500 years ago and you, sometimes we tell ourselves stories about things and we don't investigate if the stories are real or not. And I think with history, I think it's important that we actually investigate. is so many young historians are now getting in touch and saying that they want to apply the cold case police methodology to the study of history. So it might get exciting in generations to come

when we've got all these young historians really doing the deep dive in the investigation. How interesting. And I think, let's talk about the princes in the tower. I mentioned that it was believed by many that they were murdered

by their uncle, King Richard. What do you think or what, do you have a hypothesis on exactly what might have happened?

Now, after nearly eight years of investigation and remember it's running live as we speak. So now, in terms of the book that I've published and the totality of evidence that are within that book, I can actually sit here and say that the 540-year-old mystery has been solved.

And the princes didn't die during the reign of Richard III. They survived. And they each went on to fight for the throne of England against the first Tudor monarch, Henry VII. And what do you believe happened to them then? This is one of the big questions. We think that the younger one, who was Richard, Duke of York, that he probably was executed in 1499 and was buried in the Austin Friars in London, which is now the Dutch church. We think that probably is what happened to him because he

wasn't crowned and he wasn't anointed. But the elder boy, Edward V, we don't know. We're trying to find out what happened. There was the Battle of Stokefield in June 1487, which he seems to have survived. He may have been badly injured. That's one line of investigation we're looking into. And a second line that we are looking at is in deepest, darkest Devon, at Coleridge in Devon, where there seems to be a major connection

with the elder prince there. Sorry, where in Devon did you say? Coler major connection with the elder prince there. Sorry where in Devon did you say? Caldridge. Ah in Caldridge and because there were bones found at one point that are currently residing in Westminster that were believed to be of the young princes you are pushing to get them tested correct? Yeah Yeah. Yeah. When the science is ready. I don't think the science is quite ready now, but certainly when the science is ready, yes. The late Queen Elizabeth did not want these to be tested. And I'm wondering, do you ever have concerns about disturbing what is there,

maybe in line with what Queen Elizabeth thought? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in terms of the investigation and what we've been able to find out about these bones in the urn in Westminster Abbey, there is no historical, no archaeological and no scientific evidence whatsoever that these are the remains of the princes in the tower. However, like the bones in the river story for Richard III prior to 2012, it has become a story that has been repeated and repeated and repeated and repeated until people believe it. So it seems like the general public opinion out there is, oh, let's not look at the evidence. Let's just think that these probably are the princes in the tower, so we have to have a look at them.

In order to answer this question, that's why I'm saying, well, I think we have to do it, because it's a question that needs to be answered. You talk about the signs not being ready yet. What needs to happen? The problem is they're very contaminated. They were not only handled a great deal in the 17th century when they were discovered 10 feet down in the foundation level of this building, but they were also then handled again in 1933 when they were looked at then. They were also x-rayed at that time.

And x-rays at that time were horrendous. So the likelihood that probably most of the DNA is contaminated and ruined. But who knows, maybe in time science might be able to find some of the DNA. But the problem that we have is every single bone will need to be tested because if we only test one or two bones then the people will say ah but you've only tested two of the bones and the princess could still be in there so we will have to test every single bone so every issue brings up another issue um But we talk about a difference of opinion with the late Queen Elizabeth. Do you get pushback from people when you try to, I say rewrite history,

and I don't mean that in any disparaging way. I just mean in a different way to what has gone before. Yeah, I do. I don't know why. There's a lot of anger out there that I've... Like, what would you hear? What would you say? What would people say to you? They just basically say that everything that you've discovered and all the discoveries in all of your book is rubbish and it all means nothing. And so you just think, okay, but we've found evidence after evidence after evidence after evidence after evidence.

I don't understand that thinking, that's all. No, have you had, I'm curious about that, whether you've had an insight to why it riles some people so much when you come up with a different version of history? I think maybe at the bottom of it all is I'm not a doctor and I'm not a professor and you know that might be part of it that might be a good part of it. Maybe this intersects with that last answer Philippa but you are a woman working in this field. Has that ever come up as an aspect or do you think it has played into any of the reaction that you've had?

Yeah, it has with some reactions for sure. That's been a part of it, yeah. Not content with King Richard and the missing princes. I believe you have another project in the pipeline. me to put together a research project for them because they want to tell their historical story and so hopefully there will be a search for Henry at some point. And you know I really remember with your interview that you did on Woman's Hour about Richard III that you had like you know this intuition over the car park for the letter war and it did turn out that he was buried there with King Henry I. Where are you looking?

It's a car park. Yeah, it's another car park. And the research that I've done is suggestive that we did a GPR survey and there seems to be three sarcophagus burials, well, looks to be three sarcophagus burials and potentially Henry I could be under cave for king. Ha ha. We shall have to have you back for that. So you've gone digging for the truth with all these male historical figures. But as this is Woman's Hour, I'd like to know, Philippa, whether there's any female historical figure that has piqued your interest that you might research in the future. Yeah, do you know, there is one actually, and she's apparently buried beside Henry I, and her name is Constance of York. She's the Duchess of Gloucester. She was actually Richard

III's great aunt. But you know, she's got the most amazing story. She was one ballsy, gutsy woman, and sounds like a woman who never took no for an answer. And yeah, I would really like to investigate Constance a lot more, actually. Thank you very much, Philippa Langley, for speaking to us here on Woman's Hour as we discover women who dig. Well, Krupa will be back with you on Woman's Hour tomorrow. But until then, have a great day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time

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