Woman's Hour - Women's Euro 2022

Episode Date: August 1, 2022

In today's Woman's Hour we dedicate the programme to Women's Football after the Lionesses won the Euro 2022 Championship last night. Rebecca Myers is a journalist for The Times and a prominent voice in Women's Sport, she joined Andrea to give a match report and described some of her favourite moments. What will the legacy of last night’s Women’s Euro 2022 be? The former lioness and second highest goal scorer for England Kelly Smith joins Andrea Catherwood alongside Dame Heather Rabbatts, Dame Heather was the first female board member of the Football Association when she joined in 2012.We will also discuss the grass roots of the game and what more oppurtunities could be given to girls who want to play at school and beyond, Andrea speaks to Baroness Sue Campbell the Director of Women’s Football at the FA.David Kogan negotiated the sale of the TV rights for the Women’s Super League and is a long time advisor to the FA, he joins Andrea to discuss what next for the business side of the sport. Neither the Wales nor Scotland women’s football teams qualified for the Euro 2022 tournament, but will England’s victory, and Northern Ireland’s involvement in the group stages, be a boost for all the nations of the UK? The Scottish crime writer and football fan Val McDermid joined us alongside Laura McAllister, former Wales international team captain and currently deputy chair of UEFA's Women's Football committee and Caragh Hamilton, a midfielder for the Northern Ireland team.And Evelyn, a seven-year-old goalie from Leeds, has written a poem in honour of her favourite Lioness. Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Andrea Catherwood and welcome to Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4. This is what dreams are made of. As a young girl watching women's football to this. Unbelievable. Those were the words of Chloe Kelly minutes after she scored the match-winning goal at Wembley last night to win the European Championship and give England their first major football tournament victory in over 50 years.

Welcome to Women's Hour, where today we are celebrating the game-changers. The Lionesses have their first major glory. And dare we say, with this size, with this energy, with the way that the game is going in this country, we hope, we believe it's the first of many. England are the winners of the Women's European Championship 2022. Well it was a hard-fought victory against who else but Germany. One all after 90 minutes. England's goal deep in the second half of extra time secured a victory and avoided the dreaded penalty shootout. The game saw a record crowd of 87,000 fans in the stands of Wembley Stadium.

And that's a record not just for the women, but for the men too. And there were also at its its peak, 17 million people watching the final on BBC television last night. Well, today is, of course, about celebration, but it's also about remembering how far the women's game has come. The last time England won a major trophy, the World Cup, back in 1966, women were still banned by the FA from playing football. Just let that sink in. It's extraordinary that the Football Association banned women's football

for most of the 20th century. In 1984, England reached the final of the first women's European Championship with little or no funding and amateur players. The semis and the finals had home and away legs, so that once the first match was over, players could go back to their day jobs for a few weeks before the next fixture. It was only four years ago that the Women's Super League went professional. Last night's women didn't get into football to make lots of money, they did it to win. And last night, they did just that. Now, Lucy Bronze, Lee Williamson and Beth Mead are among the lionesses becoming household names.

Not only that, but they've inspired many, many young girls to follow in their footsteps, some of which we will hear from later. And I also want to hear from you today. What does this victory mean to you? If you're a player, a long-term football supporter or a recent convert. If you're an England fan or if, like me, you come from somewhere else but you've been drawn in by the brilliance and enthusiasm of this team. Imagine if the next generation of girls and boys grow up

not knowing that the beautiful game, the national game, used to only really be accessible to half the nation. Please let us know what this means to you. You can text at Women's Hour on 84844 and texts will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it is at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, you can email us through our website. On the show today, we're going to hear from former Lioness legend Kelly Smith, who played against Germany the last time England faced them in a European final.

And we'll also hear from Dame Heather Rabbits, the first woman to sit on the board of the Football Association. We're going to look at whether it's enough is being done to support grassroots football and hear from a club in Leeds that's struggling to find pitches despite huge appetite from girls wanting to play. And of course, I am very aware that this is an England victory. We will be hearing from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland about whether a win for English football is a boost for women's sport in all the nations. And we've got something very special for you. A seven-year-old Evelyn who plays for a club in

Leeds and she has written a poem about her favourite lioness. Now, it was a huge night, of course, for women's football, but I'm aware that not everybody has been watching. So if you would like a quick catch up or amid all the tension and hysteria watching. So if you would like a quick catch-up, or amid all the tension and hysteria of the match, you'd like a recap, I'm joined now by Rebecca Myers. She is a journalist for The Times and a prominent voice in women's sport. And she's going to talk to me about what happened last night and if it was actually a good game.

Rebecca, welcome. How are you feeling this morning? Morning. Well, I have to say I was holding tears back there actually hearing you say all that. I think it's quite hard to actually still believe it's real. So many people have, you know, followed the women's game for so long. Can't believe that this has happened, especially that record attendance, the record viewing figures. So still still pinching myself this morning. Talk me through your favorite moment of the game last night oh well it was it was a tough game and i think you know while for viewers

that was nerve-wracking it's really good for the women's game it's really good to showcase a really tight match with two brilliant teams at the top of of their performances um for me it had to be chloe kelly's celebration um she's 24 old. She scores that winning goal in extra time. And she took her shirt off and ran around in her sports bra, which was a sort of homage to Brandi Chastain, an American footballer who did that in the 90s. And that, for me, was a really moving, powerful moment to see that young woman just celebrating her body

for its power and its strength and just being so, you know, no inhibitions, just joyful. It was an extraordinary moment. And I think that image will stay with us forever. It was an iconic moment. And that photograph has been all over social media and a lot of the front pages today. Tell me this. How central was the coach, Serena Weigmann, to this team's success?

Because, you know, she seemed to bring a huge amount of energy, but also discipline to the team. Absolutely. I think she, you know, obviously the players have done incredible work. They are individually and as a collective very hardworking. And Serena has said that. But I think she perhaps was, you know, the magic touch. You know, she she tipped it over for us. She obviously won the Euros last time with her home country, the Netherlands. I mean, the pressure then to do that again is extraordinary. But she did it and she was just she was such a sort of beacon of calm throughout the tournament. Such an impressive person. She went through a family bereavement just before the tournament started.

I know she dedicated that win to her sister, but the way she was able to unite the women, obviously across club rivalries as well, and just give them, I think, that all-round constant belief that they could do it. It was just such a joyful atmosphere the whole way through, and that is all down to her leadership. And the gameplay was sophisticated last night, wasn't it?

Particularly in those closing minutes where England did such a good job of keeping control of the game and keeping possession of the ball. And also, I think Serena must probably be credited for her amazing use of subs, showed the depth in this team. You know, they had the most impact, I think, across all the subs in the tournament and indeed scoring goals as well absolutely yes Serena's tactical planning her her I mean you got the sense that she knew every single second of the game what she had planned you know to happen and that the players knew as well and that was the edge at the end of the day

like you said the the play towards the final minutes of the match, ensuring that they kept possession, that they didn't let it get into danger zones, but also the impact of those subs who, let's not forget, the two goal scorers, 22 and 24 years old, not really in contention for previous tournaments. This was an amazing step up for them. And she just knew how to get the best out of them by bringing them on at that stage in the game, again, with so much pressure but they just were able to cope I think because of her

guidance. She's only contracted to 2025 can England keep her? I hope so I think everyone's thinking that this morning. Rebecca Myers from the Times thank you very much indeed. Now this was the captain of last night's game Lee William Williamson, shortly after the match. The legacy of this tournament is the change in society. It's everything that we've done. We've brought everybody together. We've got people at games. We want them to come to WSL games.

But the legacy of this team is winners. And that's the start of a journey. Wow, I can't believe that she was so articulate at such a momentous occasion. This is the start of a journey then, and it leads us to today's big question. What will the legacy of this tournament be? To discuss this, I'm joined by a Lioness legend and the second top goalscorer for England, Kelly Smith. Kelly has played for England over 100 times. She retired in 2015, and I'm also joined by Dame Heather

Rabatz. Dame Heather was the first female board member of the Football Association when she joined back in 2012. And whilst at the FA, she chaired the Inclusion Advisory Board. Welcome to you both this morning. Before we get on to the legacy, I'd just like to get your reaction to last night. Kelly, as a player yourself, what did last night mean to you? How did it feel seeing the Lionesses raise the European Cup? and we just were dancing, we were singing, we were laughing, we were crying, we had goosebumps. I think we've worked so hard throughout our career to help develop and promote the women's game. And it was such a proud moment for myself. I've had so many messages from friends afar saying how my generation of players have set this Lionesses up to be where they are. And the generations before me

we can't forget all those women that didn't have as much as investment or or quality or anything that these lionesses now have shown us that they've set an example for women and girls and they've inspired a nation it's just I'm pinching myself because this is what I hoped for when I was playing I lost the final to Germany in 2009 and it was a 6-2 game. And that has always been a little bit of anger in me because we had that opportunity. But these Lionesses have just taken this and taken the game to a whole new level in this country. It's unreal. And Dame Heather, how about you? I'm sure you've been waiting for this moment for a long time. Yes. And as with so many others, pinching myself, did this really happen?

And just so delighted and thrilled. And as Kelly has just said, there were so many of us there last night who over many, many years have been looking to support the the women's the women's game and it was just unbelievable when we saw that crowd attendance go up in the in in the stadium I think those of us who were founders of women's football we could fit around one little kitchen table and look at it now so it's a it's been an incredible journey and just brilliant to all those who played before and who played last night. Kelly, you know the current players very well, these women. They seem to those of us who don't know them but have been watching them over the past weeks and possibly over the past years, incredibly likeable, so enthusiastic, so authentic. And I think their enthusiasm has been infectious. Many people will have seen

last night that when the press conference was going on the whole team came in singing football's coming home. I wonder what it is about them that's made them so incredibly popular. Can you tell us a little bit about the team as people? Yeah, I just think they're very humble women that know they have a responsibility and want this responsibility to help grow our national sport. I messaged Leah Williamson. She messaged me back saying we did it. We finally did it. I mean, it just it just speaks volumes of these players. They've gone out. They've delivered when it matters in high pressured situations they could have crumbled with the pressure of a home tournament but they just galvanized themselves and they really lived up to all their expectations I just think they've really enjoyed playing in front of big crowds and they and they really grasped that and

they you could see from the emotions after the game how much it meant to them to their family they stayed behind they signed autographs. They just lapped up every moment in this tournament. And I'm just sad it's ended. What football are we going to watch now? Obviously, the Barclays Women's Super League starts on September 11th. And a lot of these players that we saw across this tournament, not just England, but the top European players in this tournament tournament are now going to be playing in our

league on home soil so I'm just going to encourage this whole new fan base that we've got now to come and support their local club team because it's about keeping this momentum going and getting these fans now into club football and supporting them that way. Kelly I definitely want to talk a little bit more about club football it's's so important. But there is a wonderful photograph of you on Twitter. It's you as captain for England coming out alongside a very young-looking Lee Williamson. We have an image in our heads of the captain coming out holding hands with a young player

or hopefully a player for the future. Now, she was captaining England last night and I wonder how important you think she's been to the success of the England team yeah integral she's only a young captain uh but her play she plays way way beyond her years she's very calm relaxed leads by example and I've known Leah since she was a kid in that picture as an Arsenal player she's come up through the youth system system at Arsenal and become undroppable really for Arsenal. And now England, her performances were just amazing throughout the whole tournament. I think she had her best game in the final.

But Leah's just very humble. She comes from a really friendly family background, good nurturing. She's very intelligent in the way she comes across and portrays our game. So full credit goes to her and her family and the way she's led this Lionesses to this major trophy. Dame Heather, I wonder if you think that the excitement has partly been because it's a home tournament and what can we do to build on it?

I mean, presumably actually getting people to go and watch these games is crucial. Yes, absolutely. And I think that we've witnessed the most amazing momentum throughout this competition to the Women's UEFA Champions League and indeed the increasing audiences that have been watching the Women's Super League. So this is another tentpole moment, I think, in that journey about how women's football and indeed more broadly women's sport is growing. It's one of the reasons why I and my colleague David Cogan set up the Women's Sports Group to really drive the profile and value going into women's football and indeed other sports. So now it is about continuing that momentum. Many countries didn't even want to bid for the women's Euros. And I think now you're going to find a whole host of countries wanting to bid for major tournaments.

We'll see more women's Super Leagues play in their main stadium so that more fans can go and watch it, build it and they will come. And that's what last night bore witness to. And I think that everybody is now really focused on not losing momentum, just making sure that we build on it throughout the rest of the season. And of course, we'll get into World Cup qualifiers later this year. OK, let's talk about the Women's Super League and this idea about playing on the main pitches, because we know that for a lot of these major teams, rather than playing, you know, if you're Stamford Bridge,

if you're Chelsea, rather than playing at Stamford Bridge, you're down in Kingston upon Thames. I think Arsenal is practically out in Hertfordshire. And I know that it's the same at Manchester United and elsewhere. How important is it that we try to make sure that some of the women's Super League games are played in the major stadiums? And indeed, is it possible that they could all be played there? I think it's really important to remember that, you know, we're on this evolutionary curve in terms of women's football. As you reminded everybody, women's football was still banned till 1970

we didn't have um virtually any accessible uh games to watch on television until this last uh this last season of the women's super league and so it's really about how do we grow that fan and audience base? And I think part of that is about absolutely making sure that the football clubs host some of their women's teams in those main stadiums. And we will now see, I am absolutely sure, more stadiums doing that in the course of the next Women's Super League. Of course, you know, it's really important that you feel that you've got that really packed sense of noise in the stadium. We won't be there overnight. We just have to remember that. But when we get 30,000, 40,000, as we did last season to turn up at the Women's Super League, these are astonishing audiences, let alone the fact that the television audience has grown by over 280%. So I think it's about really having the confidence. And I think that's what last night is going to really do.

It will give the confidence and the ambition to all clubs to think, you know, we can start to fill our stadiums. Barcelona in the Women's Champions League had over 90,000. We watched 87,000. There's no reason to believe that we won't get them in the stadiums throughout the rest of our seasons. Kelly, what do you think is next for the players in this squad? We know that the captain, Leah Williamson,

has signed a major fashion deal with Gucci. Is that a good thing for the game? Yeah, I think so. It obviously raises her profile. And these players now will get probably more sponsorship deals coming off the back of this they are household names and it's helping grow their profile they're an inspiration to these young girls that are growing up if these girls now have seen that they can perform on the

biggest stage in front of thousands so also it's about giving access to girls football in schools that's what I want to see now um I think these girls if they don't have a football team at school go and knock on your headmaster's door or the PE teacher's door and say I want a football team because I want to be like Leah Williams and you need to give me a chance to play football and I think a lot of schools don't have access to girls football and that's why Barclays are on board in terms of giving equal access to girls to have football in school by 2024 we want every school to give them an opportunity because it's vital i had to play in boys teams because there were no girls teams obviously the generations

that we're seeing with this lionesses now it needs to come through through to the schools for it to um for them to enjoy their football yeah dame heather you agree yeah no i i couldn't agree more and i think there's also something else when we watch those women uh yesterday and indeed you see it in in some of the you know advertisements that went on to showcase um this tournament is that it speaks more broadly to an empowerment of all girls that not only can i play the game if I want to, but also I can succeed. And I think that underlying message of how women can feel and girls can feel empowered by watching last night and having that greater sense of I can do anything. If I work hard enough, I can do anything. And if we continually try and strip away the barriers to equity, we can fundamentally make a difference. And that's is what really chimes with audiences, both men, women, girls and boys.

And I'm really pleased to hear more sponsors coming on board, really supporting some of that underlying message. And that is fundamental. Now, I asked our audience today what this victory meant to them. And I just want to read you one tweet that I've got from Eleanor Kendall. And I think that she is a teacher. And she says, I get so many little girls at school telling me that the boys won't let them play football in the playground. I always tell them it's because they're better. Now they can believe me.

I cried because this is hugely important for those girls in playgrounds everywhere. Totally. We are getting lots of messages from people talking about watching, for example one here that says I was watching with my daughter who's six.

It was momentous for both of us. I coached her mixed football team and it's a constant struggle to recruit girls. If I have one message team and it's a constant struggle to recruit girls. If I have one message today, it's to the parents of young girls. Take them to your local football club and encourage them to have a go. Is that where we're going to find our next generation? I think so. And also, I just wanted to make one comment.

What really struck me yesterday as somebody who's gone to many football games in my life. As I walked down Olympic Way, there were all these children, all these families walking in a spirit of great passion and joy. But crucially, when we left after the game and we're all queuing to get on that tube, it was just fantastic. And I turned to a police officer. I said, oh, you've been busy tonight. He just laughed. He just laughed. It was felt so brilliantly safe. The kids were high fiving with the police people. It was just it's such a different atmosphere. And absolutely, I hope not only will girls be playing more football in schools, but feeling confident to go to watch women's games as well. Kelly, for you, what's what's next for the game?

What are your ambitions for it as you watch on? Well, we've got the World Cup next year. Obviously, we've got another fantastic tournament to look forward to. Obviously, we've got to qualify for that yet, but we're in a good position. Like we spoke about having the games played in bigger stadiums,

so we can still attract that big audience. I think it's vitally important. It's my daughter's birthday today, and she saw the game's played in bigger stadiums so we can still attract that big audience I think it's vitally important that it's my daughter's birthday today and she saw the game last night she's turned three today so she's seen this now and I want the best for her so she it's just normalized now women's football is normalized instead of comparing it to men's football it's a sport in its own right and I just want to see these fans now just keep the momentum coming keep supporting the women's program and for the FA and the other organizations to keep investing because once you invest you can see what what can happen what like we witnessed last night well Kelly uh happy birthday to your daughter and Kelly Smith thank you very much for joining us and Dame Heather Rabat really good to speak to both of you. Thank you. Now, we've been talking about how England's victory

can fertilise the sports grassroots and there's been a lot of talk about the huge impact that the England women's success in the Euros will have on football opportunity for girls. Ian Wright, former footballer from England, even brought it up in the semi-final between England and Sweden. After England had won, he said this.

Whatever happens in the final now, if girls are not allowed to play football just like the boys can in their PE after this tournament, then what are we doing? Well, some of those young girls watching the match last night were in Barton United Girls Football Club in Oxfordshire.

Here's what they thought of the game. My name is Jada and I'm six years old. England, they speak Germany, and I like number six because she is a very good tackler. I'm Kiana, I'm 12 years old, and I think the England ladies are amazing and I love how they all fight and support each other. I'm Lyra and I'm seven.

England has just beaten Germany to win the Euros. It's amazing. I like how they are a great team. So what can be done to support girls getting into football, both at school and at club level? Well, shortly before coming on air, I spoke to Baroness Sue Campbell, the Director of Women's Football at the Football Association. I began by asking her how she felt watching last night. Well, first of all, an incredible sense of joy for those players

particularly but of course for the generations i guess of women that have gone before you know it was a very very special moment for the women's game and i've worked alongside those particular players for a very long time and at a personal level i so wanted them to be successful but on a bigger stage the legacy that they've left for the women's game is extraordinary and wouldn't have been possible unless a lot of women in the 70s and 80s and 90s had the courage to play the game when, quite honestly, people weren't that supportive of women's football. Even more recently, in the beginning of this century, the way that women had to play the game, the way they had to struggle, many of them were still amateurs until very recently. It's

really quite hard to contrast how different it has been for women playing the game in the last 20 years than for men. Yes, I mean, we still, you know, there are still places where people think that girls shouldn't be playing football. And I hope yesterday demonstrated that that's a very old fashioned and out of date point of view. And I think, you know, it's not just about winning on a football field. It's about these women demonstrating that they are great athletes, that the two coaches on the two benches were both women. There were women refereeing. The women's support team around it is full of great women, physios, nutritionists, psychologists. So, you know, what I think it's demonstrating is that given an equal opportunity, women can achieve great things, not just in football, but in life.

Indeed, and we're hearing a lot about wider hopes that this is going to be a game changer for the football landscape. But earlier I spoke to James Clayton, and he's a coach for Calverley Football Club based in Leeds. It's got about 150 girls who want to play football, but it's struggling to find facilities. Can we just hear what he's got to say? Yeah, we received an email a few weeks ago to basically say that the pitches that we've been using for match days, we no longer had access to those pitches. We'd been on there for five years,

co-existed with another football club. So it came as a big shock to us, to be honest. Who's using the pitches instead of your, I think you've got about 150 girls in the club? Yes, we've got 150 girls that just use those pitches on a Saturday and then another club use them on a Sunday. So they're going to continue to use those pitches. They've got an exclusive deal to use those pitches.

Luckily, I have a wonderful committee and we have some brilliant parents. So over the course of 48 hours, we kind of rallied around to try and source ourselves a new home, which we've managed to do, but it's not easy. It really is not easy. This is our first year under 12s and the girls are starting to mature. So we need changing facilities for them. And we lost all of that in one hit with this email. So this local cricket club has come forward and said we can use the facilities on a Saturday, which then opens up a changing room. We've got toilets again. So we're literally over the moon when they came forward with that suggestion.

It sounds like you and the team around you and the parents are all working really hard to enable the girls to keep playing football. I wonder what you would like to see as a result of the women's Euro success and the spotlight that's currently on the England team. I just want people to recognise that, you know, it's the girls game too. You know, there's various things on social media this morning about that, you know, the women have brought it home for the men. The women have brought it home for the women. You know, let's not get this wrong. The women have brought it home for the women. It's a fantastic achievement.

The way they went about it, it only contained two goals throughout the entire tournament. It's an absolute credit to everybody. And we need that at grassroots. We need someone to come forward at grassroots and do the same for us and just recognise that we do exist. Girls love playing football. You've never seen such enjoyment

and smiles on girls' faces when they play football. They absolutely love it. Baroness Sue Campbell, I know that you know how much girls love playing football, but what can be done? When you hear these kind of stories, what should be done and how can the FA help? Well, one of the major areas of our investment and programme

which we've been committed to and which we'll continue to be very committed to is giving girls an equal opportunity in schools and clubs to play the game. I think the other issue around facilities is a real challenge for us. We do need more facilities and there is a huge investment through the Football Foundation going into getting more facilities on the ground. But it's really important that when those facilities are built, girls are getting equal access and equal time on those facilities. So there's a lot of work still to do, but we are absolutely committed to making sure that every young girl

who wants to play this game, who is inspired by what they saw yesterday, gets the opportunity to do so, and we're putting huge investment into that area. OK, well, let's talk a little bit about the equal opportunities in schools, because I think at the moment less than two-thirds of girls have the opportunities the same opportunities as boys do to play football at school and of course school is really important because it doesn't need parents to be involved to to help out in in the way that only some parents are able to or want to so I wonder how quickly how soon are you hoping that girls and boys are going to have

equal opportunities at school to play football we're already in 12 000 schools working on getting football embedded into the curriculum lunchtime programs and activity and after school we also have a community program called wildcats, where we have 1,700 opportunities for primary age youngsters to go along with their friends and play football. It's girls only, which allows girls to gain the confidence, hopefully to go on and play more.

So we're doing a huge amount. Our ambition is that by 2024, we'll be in 75% of all schools and hopefully the demand will now come from the youngsters themselves and their parents who will be saying, why can't my daughter play this game? So we're going to provide as much support

as we can to schools. We know massive challenges fitting everything into the curriculum. They've got lots of challenges in delivering physical education and sport and making sure there's enough time for that in the curriculum and after school. We, the FA, will do our part

in supporting schools to use that time effectively and to continue to put the emphasis on giving girls that equal opportunity to play our national game. The level of ethnic minority representation in the England squad has been a talking point throughout the tournament. I think there were three non-white players in the squad and they didn't play very often. And actually, the women's team did used to be more diverse I wonder if that is an issue with access for girls from all backgrounds and if anything's being done about that yeah I

mean that's a great question and yes of course if you if you can give everyone at school as you pointed out the opportunity to play the game that that's the start every youngster needs so as we get that opportunity in every school hopefully more and more youngsters will step into the game but equally we're conscious that the talent pathway that we have is very restricted largely because of a lack of resource we don't have the kind of resources the men's game have for all their academies so what we what we're doing now is redesigning that talent pathway to make it more inclusive more diverse and to make sure we're challenging our own culture to make sure it really does feel like any young woman is welcome and any

young woman feels safe and welcomed into our environment yeah Yeah, I noticed that some of the current players attended sports camps in the US from an early age. Now, that's obviously something that's only open to a very small number of girls. And I imagine that it's not the same with boys football because, of course, there are excellent academies here in the UK and boys travel from across the world just to be in them. So I wondered wonder do you need

parents who are relatively well often willing to dedicate their lives to their daughter's football careers to be able to play for england at the moment um yes i think that's been the that's been the picture in the past certainly i mean i talking to georgia stamway and her parents you know she they used to drive her miles three times a week to just play, to train. We are going to change that, but it will take us time. And of course, it takes investment to do that. And to get a talent program that's suitable for girls,

that works for them, and that is relatively local to them is a highly expensive thing to do. And we need more resource to do that. And we don't want to copy the Boys' Academies. That isn't how we thing to do. And we need more resource to do that. And we don't want to copy the boys' academies. That isn't how we want to work. The principle of talent centres that youngsters can go to, which are local to them and can give them the best possible coaching, absolutely the right thing to do.

But it doesn't mean that we want to just necessarily copy what others have done. You've talked about investment a few times. Is the money there? Does the FA have the money? to do but it doesn't mean that we want to just necessarily copy what others have done you've talked about investment a few times is the money there does the fa have the money where will the money come from well since i joined the fa we've we've we've increased resources massively um so i'm i'm very confident that we the fa are doing what we what we can. But we can't do everything. And we need to work very closely with commercial partners and with others to make sure that we can get more investment into the game.

We've already got great sponsors in Barclays and others who've come in behind the women's game, done a massively good job. But we need more support and we need to grow the game. But the FA itself has been very supportive and the budget has grown enormously in the time I've been around. You've been a huge champion of the women's game. So I wonder, what would success look like for you?

How would you measure if grassroots football for girls right through to the professional game is where you want it to be i would just like yesterday was a pretty successful day and and it gives us a platform and and the platform means that i hope we can inspire every young girl uh to to enjoy this game whether it's as a player, a coach, a referee, a volunteer, or just simply as a spectator, as we've watched over the last couple of weeks. So I'm optimistic that this gives us an opportunity to take the game to a completely new level.

And I want those youngsters that have the ambition to play professionally and pull on that Lioness jersey to get that opportunity, wherever they come from, whatever their background, whatever community they live in. Baroness Sue Campbell there, Director of Women's Football at the Football Association. Well, thank you so much for getting in touch with us this morning. We've had quite a lot of tweets about the idea that the women themselves, the players, have just given you so much joy. For example,

one tweet says, the thing I find most moving from yesterday's tremendous victory was the enthusiasm and sheer joy of the players. This was in stark contrast to the world-weary attitudes of so many players in the male game. I just really hope the success will not result in the women's game becoming as cynical as the money-dominated male game has become. Another that says the appeal of the lionesses is the heartwarming camaraderie and no egos. The money in the game makes it all about the individual. Well, I'm going to be talking a bit about money now because it's no secret that women get paid way less than the men.

A player in the Women's Super League earns perhaps around £30,000 a year, whereas the average player in the men's premiership earns around £60,000 a week. Of course, that's because there's so much more money in the men's game, ticket sales, sponsorship and the money that broadcasters pay to show the games. One way the women's game could get a higher profile would be through selling sports rights. And the man who negotiated the sale of the tv rights for the women's super league the highest league of women's football in england is david cogan and he is a long-standing advisor to the fa and joins me now in the studio david welcome good morning is this a tipping point for the women's game well you really hope so um i mean last night was an extraordinary thing to watch.

And I must say, as the father of a daughter who played football and then had to stop playing football when she was in her early teens because she was captain of the boys' team and couldn't find a changing room, just watching the transformation is astonishing. But the deal we did two years ago on behalf of the FA, for the first time, put the Women's Super League on BBC One and BBC Two. Sky has massively transformed its coverage of the game.

ITV have the lionesses qualifiers for the World Cup, and next year is the World Cup in Australia and New Zealand. So you would think this is the start of a massive growth potential. But the real issue, as we've just been hearing from Sue Campbell and from Heather about earlier, is whether actually the game could take advantage of it and whether the investment goes in not just through media rights but through sponsorship and through the people who really control the teams who are the clubs and that's still I think a matter of great debate within the game. It has been said I know that relatively recently, women's sports rights were literally given away when the men's game was negotiated.

I don't know if you want to comment on whether or not that's true. Before my time. But how much money is there really out there in terms of broadcasters giving money for these kind of games? For example, when we look at the qualifiers for the World Cup, what's the situation there, for example, compared to the Meta? Well, ITV pays for the qualifiers for the next World Cup and for the friendlies

played by their landlady. And it pays a reasonable sum of money, but it's a sum of money that's there to be renegotiated on the back of the success of the audiences it gets, and the same will be the case with Sky, and to an extent the same with the BBC. The BBC, of course, by giving BBC One and BBC Two the effort at the right decision, that actually that exposure was so important, the BBC has always paid somewhat less than others.

So the fact is that the values in the game really have had to build over the last two or three years in terms of media rights. Before that, the values were pretty low. We did a pretty lucrative deal last time, but it's by no means enough to really transform the game in the way, for instance, the Premier League transformed football finances 30 years ago in the men's game. And there is still this huge disparity. And part of that is about the media exposure. Part of that is where, as you said earlier in one of your interviews, about where the games themselves are played, the stadium which they're played. And there's big progress on that. And part of that is the investment that not only the FA has put in,

but others through the WSL board and the clubs are going to have to put in. And that is still, I think, an open question. I know that there are some games being played in the flagship stadiums around the country, if you like. Would it make a difference to selling rights if more of the games were played there in those stadiums, in the Stamford Bridges and the Emirates? And is that possible? Yes. I mean, actually, if you look at the first calendar month

of the WSL in September, from September 10th, I mean, the first game is just played at White Hart Lane in Tottenham's main stadia. The Merseyside derby later in the month is being played at Anfield. The Manchester derby is going to be played at the Emirates. And so, you know, there are these massive opportunities for the women's game, A, to get audiences. And I think last night we saw audiences in the stadium, 87,192. I mean, astonishing, terrific. But actually the opportunity to fill those large stadia is now there. And from a broadcaster's point of view, you want big stadia filled with lots of screaming fans having a fantastic time because it makes great television. But it's a growing process, and compared to even two or three years ago, this is great progress. Is it enough? No. But the clubs themselves have got to make big decisions about, you know, opening stadia, putting in the resources to do that,

having broadcast gantries and things that clubs have to decide where they want to spend the money on. The other point is broadcasters have to find the slots in which to broadcast these games. And actually, that's quite a complex thing, given how crowded the football calendar is as well. Do you get the sense that the premiership clubs are really behind this? Because it seems like from what you're saying that actually the beginning, the impetus lies with them. Well, the control of the game has always, the women's game, has always resided first with the FA, but when they created the WSL board, which is chaired by Dawn Airy, the clubs are members of that board. They're members of the commercial committee that determine most of the commercial

decisions and individual clubs have obviously got individual teams. And I do think one of the things that's really interesting that people haven't talked about today is that when you look at support for Arsenal or Tottenham or any of the main Premier League clubs, all the evidence is that men who support Chelsea are equally likely to support Chelsea's women's team. Actually, it's the brand of the club, it's support of the club that is gender neutral in a strange way. It's not men only going to see men and women only going to see women. That's actually quite a big discovery of the last few years. I know it sounds odd, but actually it's about club brand, it's about national brand. So the fact is that different clubs have put in different levels of investment. They've got the different, some clubs have a different view about

which stadia in which to play. And gradually, as they see the success of games such as yesterday, they're going to gradually move to where they can make money. And the way you make money is by filling stadia. And the women's game now shows it can do that. We've talked a lot about football today. But in terms of women's sport in general in the UK, is this a good time? And can you see this as being a kind of a game changing time for women? One of the things that was so significant about selling women's football was that the FA took the decision to sell the rights of the women's game separately from selling rights of the men's game. And we are now seeing that more and more in sports around the world, where you are getting in cricket, for instance, although the

rights are sold together, the 100, which the ECB launched two or three years ago, now has on the same night in the same stadium, a men's game and a women's game back-to-back, complete equality of exposure. Now, that is an extraordinary breakthrough in a national sport that actually only really happened by accident, but now it's happened. Everybody realises that the exposure of women's cricket has been enormous.

The IPL in India looks almost certainly as though it's going to launch its own version of the women's franchises to meet the men. That's the most powerful brand in world cricket now. Women's tennis has always been a huge brand with huge stars. And part of this is creating individuals as stars, as we've now seen in cricket, we've seen in women's football, we've seen in women's tennis.

And part of it is the infrastructure around that. And this is now happening on a basis where you will see over the next 10 years women's sport in almost every sport segregated from men in terms of its value just growing and growing and growing. Because media companies and sponsors want the next best thing, and this is the new best thing. David Coogan, thank you very much indeed for telling us that and leaving on an optimistic note. Thank you.

Now, neither the Wales or the Scotland women's football teams qualified for the Euro 2022 tournament. But will England's victory and indeed Northern Ireland's involvement in the group stages be a boost for all the nations of the UK? To discuss this, I'm joined by Val McDermott, the Scottish crime writer and huge football fan. Laura McAllister is a former Wales international team captain and currently deputy chair of UEFA's Women's Football Committee. And Cara Hamilton, a midfielder for the Northern Ireland team, who was a pundit for this year's Euro tournament because she had an injury which meant she couldn't play. Val, were you supporting the Lionesses last night? Yes, I was. This has actually turned into something that's broken down old traditional barriers of the old enemy. Not least because Shelley Kerr, who used to be the Scottish manager, was the lead technical person on the coaching team. But I think we all understand that supporting the sport across the board helps all of us.

It's not just about England. It's so interesting because I thought you were going to say that. And I've been amazed, really, that this team seems to have got such a lot of support from, I think, from across the UK. That's what it feels like anyway whereas of course for a lot of men's sports particularly football and rugby there are a lot of people in Scotland and Northern Ireland and Wales who would really rather see anybody but England win when they're playing and it seems that the Lionesses have managed to create a completely different feeling. I think that's partly because of the crowds if you look at the audiences for the game the audiences for the women's game are much more diverse.

They're much more kids, more young people. Excuse me. And... I'm sorry, I've got terrible cold. And they're supportive, they're together. There's much more families there. And I didn't see any sign of the sort of Ingerland thuggishness that we have come to associate with the men's game so often.

It's a different audience and that creates a different atmosphere. Val, thank you for struggling through. Take a glass of water. Laura, you were in the stand at Wembley, so you know the atmosphere well. Tell me what it was like. And if you agree with Val that because of the difference in the type of people that are there and the the atmosphere it really means that perhaps there is a wider base of support for sure and it was a tremendous experience tremendous environment and huge congratulations to England and as you say mostly those of us in Wales Scotland and Northern

Ireland wouldn't be saying that about our rivals but you know make no mistake this was a victory for women's football it's been a tremendous tournament and all credit to the FA and UA for organising it so successfully but I think what we've been trying to do in Wales is to capitalise on what we knew would be a huge spike of interest in the women's game. None of this is new to those of us who work in the game, of course. We have a very clear strategy for how we try and develop the game. And we knew that the fillet from this tournament would give us that extra jet power to move our strategy on. And for us in Wales, really, I mean, clearly, first and foremost, it's about qualifying for a major tournament. We're very close to qualifying for the playoffs of the World Cup in Australia and New Zealand next year.

We're hoping to break the record attendance at the Wales versus Slovenia game next month. Very, very important for us. But it's also about grassroots development. Because if you look at the Lionesses last night, just like our star players in Wales, Jess Fishlock, Sophie Ingle and everybody, they came through the grassroots of the game. at the lionesses last night just like our star players in in wales just fishlock sophie england everybody they came through the grassroots of the game if we don't invest properly in grassroots facilities in clubs in pathways then we won't generate the next stars of the future so this isn't new for any of us we a lot of us have known that women's football is growing four times faster

than men's football in europe but this gave us the platform now to do what we need to do in Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland by capitalising on England's success. Cara, England played Northern Ireland in the competition and beat them 5-0, a painful night for some of us so I wonder if you could bring yourself to cheer on the lionesses yeah i have to say that um i was cheering on england last night and i think it's because we in northern ireland are we're at a very different stage of our journey to what um to where england are now but i think having spoken to a lot of the ex-players while i was at the tournament who played for eng years ago the likes of Kelly Smith and Alex Scott and Farrah Williams they all said to me that you you in Northern Ireland are where we are 15 years ago and I think um to then look at where they are now it only gives us hope that if we can have a similar investment um from our association that we can continue to push on and strive and to

to get to more major tournaments okay I don't expect us to be challenging to win tournaments anytime soon but I think it still gives us hope that we've all been on a similar journey and because of that there is that sort of we share in the same struggles. And I think we all still have the same issues at grassroots, despite where the different teams are at the elite level. I think everybody still points to the bottom, to the grassroots, and says we need to continue to invest, whether it's in Ireland, Wales, Scotland, or even England,

who are obviously at the top. Cara, we've talked quite a lot about that today, about struggling for facilities, simple things like girls changing rooms, stopping girls from taking football onto the next level. You've obviously been through this all very recently. Tell me about your experiences in Northern Ireland, starting out and playing football at the grassroots level and then coming through.

Yeah, well, like a lot of girls, I played in a boys league whenever I was younger. I was the only girl in my team and the only girl in the league. And to be honest, I thought that I was the only one doing that. But then whenever you come together in the national team set up, you realise that girls across the country have had the exact same experience and and that really you know galvanized us and you realize that you know we've all we've all fought

to to be here and um we've all had similar experiences at that youth level now I wouldn't I wouldn't change it um obviously I'm delighted that girls now don't have to um share in those struggles a lot of the time but I think it's made me the person that I am and it's made me appreciate the journey so much more and be grateful for where I am now. Val, how popular is the women's game in Scotland? Well it's growing in popularity but it does need

as we've talked about earlier, it needs money putting into the game, it needs investment to bring players on, it needs facilities but one of the things it also needs is media coverage. We need to be able to pick up our facilities. But one of the things it also needs is media coverage. We need to be able to pick up our newspapers and see coverage of women's matches. We need to be able to go online and readily find out where

the matches are in our area. And sometimes that's quite difficult. And I really think that if you build it, they will come. If you let people know that there's decent women's football going on, they will come and watch it. They'll come and stand on wood swept touchlines where there is no pie and bovril at half time

for the pleasure of seeing teams of young women going out there and giving everything they've got and that's when there's so much solidarity in the women's game I've not seen any kind of petty sniping amongst the players and the team that I support

there's a great sense of being there for each other, having each other's back. And I think that that's something that the world needs to see more of. And we need to get the word out that maybe we should have a women's game in what match of the day, for example, every week. Great idea. Tell me this, Val, do you think that it's up to the clubs? You know, you've got some very high profile clubs in Scotland. Great idea. Tell me this, Val, do you think that it's up to the clubs? You know, you've got some very high profile clubs in Scotland. Should they be playing more of a part in trying to help the grassroots and indeed trying to showcase the women who play for them? I think it's partly up to the clubs, but it's also partly up to the SFA to give support to the women's game.

Some of the decisions that are made are not always helpful to us. And I think that, as I say, these things need to be taken, it's often on a case-by-case basis, but there does need to be cooperation with the FA and with the clubs to put more money into the game and support facilities. Laura, do you agree that actually Wales could do with that kind of funding? And if so, where does it come from? Well, I think we have to recognise we're a smaller nation than England and we have to do things differently. We definitely need to increase investment in the development of the game, but we're already doing some quite innovative things that have to come in

a way that they maybe don't have to come in England so for example we have an academy system where our talented girls aged between 11 and 16 play with boys and they play up based on their physical capacity so they may play with a boy of the same age an elite boy or they may play with a boy a couple of years younger and I think those kind of innovations are really important in some of the smaller nations where we can't throw money at the game in quite the same way. Although I have to say, you know, if there are companies based in Wales that are not already involved in the women's game, my question to them is what are you doing? Because the trajectory of growth for women's football in Wales is enormous and they're missing a trick if they're not involved. The other thing I'd say, which we haven't talked about much today, is a comment about the governance of the game.

And this is something very important to me because I feel still women's football and football generally is an outlier in terms of proper diverse governance. We don't have women represented on boards effectively and fairly anywhere other than in a few of the scandinavian countries in european football we don't in fifa we don't in um uefa and we don't in most of the national associations and i don't think anywhere else in any sector would we accept that all male boards or predominantly uh male boards are or predominantly male boards, are acceptable in terms of ensuring that the game grows as it should.

Women need voice and they need agency, and we don't have that at the moment. Laura McAllister from the Wales international team, thank you very much indeed for making that point. Val McDermott, thank you very much indeed. And Cara Hamilton, good luck. I hope the injury heals very soon and that you are back playing for the Northern Ireland team.

Now, lots of you have got in touch with us today about what the victory means to you, but I've got a treat for you now. Evelyn is seven. She plays for the Calverley United girls' under-9s team in Leeds, and she's written a poem about her favourite lioness. Can you guess who it is?

Made to save, amazing every time. Ready to do what it takes, you will love her. Evelyn's favourite goalkeeper, always on time, remembered at England, pronounced Earps, special to me. Well, Evelyn's poem is for the England goalie Mary Earps, of course. And to borrow a phrase from Gabby Logan last night about women's football, they think it's all over.

It's only just begun. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.