Woman's Hour - Women's football; Black women running for office in the US; Sue Miller's novel Monogamy

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

Why are the world’s best female footballers signing for English clubs? In the past few weeks some of the world’s best female footballers have signed for clubs in the Women’s Super League, highlighting a power shift in women’s football globally and setting up an enticing season, which will be watched, at least remotely, by more fans than ever before. The new arrivals include five of the US World Cup-winning team, most notably Alex Morgan at Tottenham Hotspur, who scored one of the goals that knocked England out of the 2019 World Cup. To discuss the women’s game and the draw to English clubs, Jenni is joined by BBC Women’s Sport Reporter, Jo Currie, and Kristine Leine, Defender for Reading FC Women.New data from a parliamentary committee suggests the problem of poor body image has increased during lockdown. The social media survey by the Women and Equalities committee is being published today as they start hearing evidence from experts about body image on areas such as who’s at risk, the impact on mental health and issues such digital editing and image filtering online. Negative body image can have a serious effect on self esteem and lead to depression, eating disorders and the use of medication such as diet pills, laxatives and steroids. The committee’s chair Caroline Nokes talks about what the inquiry hopes to achieve.This year at least 266 women of colour - 175 Democrat and 91 Republican - are major-party candidates for the U.S. Congress, setting new records for the 2020 elections. We hear from Candace Valenzuela standing for office in Dallas, Texas and Desiree Tims in Dayton, Ohio. Kimberly Peeler-Allen, a co-founder of Higher Heights, an organisation supporting Black women into elected office, joins them.Sue Miller’s new novel Monogamy explores a long relationship and complicated grief. Annie and Graham have a loving relationship that has lasted for decades but when the unthinkable happens Annie has to re-evaluate everything.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Wednesday the 23rd of September. It's happened for a long time in the Men's Premier League. Foreign football is playing for the best clubs. Why is it now taking place in women's football? A new record of women of colour standing as candidates for Congress in the US elections. How are they being received?

And a new novel by Sue Miller, Monogamy, explores a long relationship and complicated grief. Today, the Women and Equalities Committee will publish the result of a social media survey on body image. It's been found the problem of poor body image has increased during lockdown and the committee is now to start hearing evidence about who's most at risk, the effects on mental health and the impact of digital editing and image filtering online. I'm joined by the committee's chair, Caroline Noakes, Conservative MP for Romsey and Southampton North. Caroline, why were you keen to conduct this survey? Well, this started before lockdown. We were keen to particularly look at the impact on

young people of negative body image and to try and find solutions. But we're quite stunned, I think, that during lockdown, for some people, it had got significantly worse, and their own perceptions of their appearance had made them feel anxious and depressed. What's been identified then as the most serious concern? Well, I think from my perspective, I would highlight the increase that we have seen in young people suffering from eating disorders. And we know over the past few years there's been a 50% increase in referrals to eating disorder services. That, of course, is people taking their own dissatisfaction with the way they might look to extremes, to medical extremes. And I think it's really important that we try to rebalance this.

We know that the majority of so reliant on appearance as the be-all and end-all of everything. I think you're going to look at the potential impact of the government's obesity strategy on the eating disorder question. What concerns do you have about that strategy and the effect it will have? Well I think it's very important that the obesity strategy should focus on well-being and look at people in a very holistic way. And we know that sometimes overconsumption of food is very much linked to people's mental well-being and their emotional state. And I'm worried, and many leading experts on eating disorders are worried, that a very narrow focus on calorific

content is going to exacerbate problems for those who already have eating disorders. And we know, don't we, that some of the leading food retailers, if you look at chains like McDonald's and Costa Coffee they have very much led the way in giving calorie content on their foods yet that has happened over many years and we have still seen obesity increase so I do think that the strategy needs to be very careful in the way it focuses calories I think it needs to move away from BMI. We know that's a very poor measure of individual well-being. It's great across populations as an average, but it doesn't give individuals an accurate measure of their health. So I would like to see an obesity strategy that works on joining physical activity to calorie consumption that looks at people in a very very holistic way and gives a

big boost to mental well-being not just physical. Who do you reckon suffers most from this problem? Well I think that's a very interesting question we know that it is a bigger problem for girls than boys but I think what's interesting is the dramatic increase in the number of young men who are concerned about their appearance there is a dramatic increase in men accessing eating disorder services so it affects everybody young old all ethnicities both genders and we do know that particularly those in the LGBTQ community feel particularly conscious of their appearance. So this is a problem for everyone.

I know you're also looking at digital images being enhanced or even altered with no warning. I know there's a bill in Parliament on this question how big a problem is that well so my colleague dr luke evans has brought forward a bill on digitally enhanced images indicating there should be some sort of stamp or mark to show people where images have been changed now we know that there are automatic filters and programs that you can use just on your phone to change the way that your individual photos used and many young people heavily reliant on them my own daughter always says to me when I put a photo on social media she said why would you not have put a filter on that and I always say to it's because I mean if mommy doesn't retouch our images but I

think particularly when it comes to advertising when it comes to social media influences we need to know what's real and what's not. And when images are so heavily stylised, edited to the nth degree, they're creating body shapes, perfect skin tones that simply cannot be replicated in real life. So it's a very false image and one that is making people have really unrealistic expectations of what they're ever going to achieve with their own appearance. Max Pemberton who's an NHS psychiatrist wrote this week that he thinks Instagram is really damaging to teenage girls and actually suggested that it should be restricted to the over 18s. How much sympathy do you have for that view? So I have a massive amount of sympathy for the view that Instagram has been very damaging to

teenage girls in particular, but boys as well. I think it's unrealistic to think that we're ever going to be able to restrict it to the over 18s. But I do think that the social media giants have a massive role to play in this. There is a lot of responsibility on their shoulders, which I have to say I don't think they take terribly seriously. And I do think certainly government needs to look very closely as to how it can regulate. We have the online harms white paper coming forward. Is that going to be a mechanism via which we can oblige them to take greater responsibility? And these are all issues that the committee is looking forward to digging

around in as the inquiry gets going. But I mean, these companies, the social media companies, are so huge and so powerful. How on earth can your committee or indeed the government itself change something so huge and powerful well just because something's big and powerful doesn't mean that you shouldn't try uh social media has become a monster of its own creation um and i think what we have to do is not just wring our hands with woe and say somebody should do something but look to the government say look you can regulate these people you can use your power to make sure that they are not having an undue impact on the emotional and mental well-being of young people remembering that at the end of the day it will be society that picks up the tag whether that is in increased levels of depression and anxiety whether it's in young people not wanting to take part

in sport and physical activity because of the way they look. And ultimately, it's the NHS that picks up the mental health bill. So I think there is a role to play for government in finding ways that they can tackle the Facebooks, the Instagrams, the Twitters of this world. Caroline Noakes, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Thank you. And we would like to hear from you.

If you think something needs to be done about the kind of images that are presented on social media, perhaps you'd like to send us a tweet or indeed an email. Now this year, at least 266 women of colour, 175 Democrat and 91 Republican, are major party candidates for the United States Congress, setting a new record for the 2020 elections. Well, earlier I spoke to Candace Valenzuela, who's standing in Dallas, Texas, and Aziri Timms, who's in Dayton, Ohio. Kimberly Peeler-Allen is one of the founders of Higher Heights, an organization supporting Black women into elected office. Why does she think so many are standing this year? I think this is a moment where Black women and

women of color are saying, now is the time for us to take control of our communities, to make sure that our voices are heard. And the best way to do that in this moment is to run for public office, to make sure that our priorities are represented at decision-making tables across the country and particularly in the halls of Congress. And Desiree, what would you put this down to that there are so many more women of color standing? I think that women and women of color have had enough of the status quo. Women and women of color are acknowledging the impact, both in the short term and longterm of policy and law and how that impacts our lives. And it is necessary that we have a seat at the table. And so none of us, Candace nor myself or any of the other women of color running for office right now have been invited to have a seat at that table. We decided to have a seat anyway. And I'm running so that we can build

a bigger table so that we can have a more inclusive table because public policy and laws are written in a way that impacts all of our lives. Candace, why do you suppose that is? Well, in this time, we understand now more than ever that our leadership isn't just something that gratifies us. It's necessary for the better functioning of this country. So many things paved the path for Donald Trump to get into office. And much of that is people not having the wherewithal to stand up to him, not having the urgency to stand up to him. And for people of color, for communities of color, our situation is dire. We need to be able to feed our children, keep food on the table. We need to know that when our son or our daughter

walks out the door, they're going to receive equal protection and equal justice under the law. And it's not just Trump, but those who prop him up don't believe in America that has that kind of equity. And women of color understand that. Kimberly, why did the organization you run, Higher Heights, begin? Higher Heights began out of my co-founder Glenda Carr and I seeing a need for a political home for Black women. We saw that there were a lot of organizations out there that were focused on women overall, but they were not taking into consideration the particular nuances of Black women's civic engagement, the challenges that Black women candidates were facing that were different from our white sisters. And we said,

you know what, we need to create a space. And that was back in 2011. And we said, if we build it, will they come? And they did. And it has been a tremendous experience to see black women stepping into their political power from the voting booth to elected office. Candace, what brought you to politics? What inspired you? It's been an interesting and circuitous journey, to be sure. You know, I come from a military family. And by that, I mean my great-grandfather came over to the United States from Mexico and fought in World War I. Both my grandfathers fought in World War II. And my mother and father met in the I. Both my grandfathers fought in World War II, and my mother and father

met in the U.S. Army. My dad used to jump out of planes, and my mom used to fix them. And I was hoping to follow in their footsteps, but I got into a car accident when I was a senior in high school, and I could no longer carry a rifle. But I was fortunate enough to get a full scholarship to my college, Claremont McKenna, and ended up studying policy. But when I graduated into the recession, I didn't have a lot of connections, again, because my parents didn't have college education, they didn't have a wealthy network. So I ended up working in various jobs surrounding kids and child care and education. And that actually gave me an excellent perspective on the politics of how our kids are getting educated, the politics of class, the politics of social mobility. And all of that combined, coming together right after the Trump election.

I think I ended up running for my local school board. I ended up defeating an 18-year incumbent with the backing of the Republican establishment to take my seat as the first woman of color, despite the fact that this district was majority people of color. So that was my start there. We've read that you want to be the first black Latina in Congress. Why is it so important to show you're not afraid to bring race, gender and class to the fore? It's critical because so many of the issues surrounding people of color or women are not necessarily urgent to politicians, even if male politicians, even if they are aware of those issues existing. When we're talking about the politics of our bodies, when we're talking about the politics of disproportionate police punishment, we don't, aside from maybe studying numbers, and of course, so much of that's anecdotal,

because it's hard to get excellent data when you have parties unwilling to participate in the data gathering. You're not going to get a great representative democracy. There are large gaps there when you can't put people in place that can speak with some fluency. And that's why it's significant for a lot of the folks I'm seeking to represent. Now, some of the candidates you support are Democrats, and indeed, we're speaking to Democrats today. But there are also a number of black women standing as Republicans. Who would you say are the most significant Republicans coming for the first time? Well, there are quite a few black women Republicans because Black women are not a monolith. Higher Heights has chosen to endorse and support the Black women that we have because they align most closely with the priorities of our members. But there are several Black women

who are on the general election ballot this year, including Kim Kalik, who is running to represent the city of Baltimore and surrounding counties in Maryland. There's Carla Spaulding, who is running in Florida 23, part of Miami, the Miami area, and Rhonda Kennedy, who's running in California 26, which is Ventura County, I think it's just north of Los Angeles. And these are women who are really mounting significant campaigns and really showing that there are multiple ways to tackle problems. And we need to make sure that all of their voices are part of the decision making process. Desiree, I know you worked in the Obama administration in the first term and then for two senators on Capitol Hill. What's the path to standing yourself been like so far? It has been

very different. I got my start in politics knocking doors for Barack Obama in 2007 and 2008 and had no interest in politics. I just wanted to make a difference and ensure that people who are in my community, that their lives would be changed and then later worked on Capitol Hill. However, being a staffer and working for amazing leaders like Sherrod Brown and Senator Kirsten Gillibrand and Barack Obama is very different than being a candidate. Frankly, raising the money has been eye-opening for me personally, but it does allow me to circle back to why I knocked those doors in the first place. I knocked those doors because people in my community were hurting. People needed change. And I have not forgotten that. And here I find myself in 2020, and it seems almost the same exact thing again from 2008 during the recession. People are losing

their jobs because, you know, in the height of COVID, people are afraid, people are fearful. We have a lot of racial injustice occurring right now in our country and my neighbors and my family and my friends, they want someone who's going to bring peace, make everyone feel safe and ensure that everyone has access to opportunity. And Candice, what's a typical day like at the moment as you head towards standing? It's been pretty intense, particularly because I have a one-year-old and a five-year-old, and the five-year-old is schooling virtually just one room over. My husband works full-time, so I wake up very early to tend to the one-and-a-half-year-old, and then I start the day with my five year old so that he

can get going with school. And then I will do an interview just like this one first thing. And then I'll go into making calls primarily to constituents and to donors. And a lot of those phone calls, a lot of those Zoom meetings will take up much of my day. And there are times that I will be alternating with my husband who has to get chunks of interrupted work into his day until nine or ten at night, and sometimes he'll work until two o'clock in the morning. But we're ultimately very grateful that we can do the work that we're doing to help the country, to help the world.

Desiree, we've read that you've had to face racism. How have you dealt with that? Yeah, it's definitely something that has come up on the trail. I am the first African American Democratic nominee here in this district, and I'll be the first woman. And a few months ago, one of our Democratic Party office headquarters was shot five times. Someone shot five rounds into the window and to the door where my campaign sign was, where Black Lives Matter sign was. And for me, it was a moment that was quite surreal. But I have to remember, and I tell people this all the time, you know, they're always, that's not representative of the entire district. That's probably two people or three people, however many people participated in that.

But the vast majority of the people are championing and are excited about my candidacy and the ability to have someone who represents their true interests. And that's what this campaign is about. It's about what we have in common versus what our differences are and coming to the table. But I am committed to pounding the pavement virtually every single day to make sure that I am going to bat for the people of my community. And I'm not going to allow two people or five people to deter and distract me from my goal, which is to make sure my community has representation. Kimberly, how hopeful are you that a lot of these women will be successful? I'm very hopeful. I think these women are running tremendous campaigns, combined with an electorate that is seeking out diverse leadership, and really

seeing that black women have something significant to offer that can help not just black women and their families and their communities, but all of us, because all issues are Black women's issues. And to be able to walk at that intersection of race, gender, as well as being a veteran or a small business owner or a healthcare provider or an educator really just makes the decisions around those policy positions just that much more robust because of the wide life experience that goes into the deliberation process. And what impact, Candice, would you say the announcement of Kamala Harris, this potential vice president, have on the candidature of all of you?

It's going to bring a lot of discussions to the forefront, discussions that we really never had about candidates of colour, about women of colour, things that maybe some folks thought were not necessarily an issue anymore were coming out when we were hearing about Kamala, folks talking about her being too ambitious, when no one ever said that about Joe Biden potentially wanting to be president when he was vice president. People talking about whether she was black enough, whether she was South Asian enough. And as somebody who is both black and Latina, it's something that resonates with me. Desiree, what impact would you say that announcement has had? I think it is exciting. I think black women all around the world are excited about having a Madam Vice President. And I am really thrilled with the reception and what I hear from folks here on the ground on the trail. They're excited. she also brings an opportunity to take another whack at the glass ceiling that women can lead at the highest levels

and that black women can lead at the highest levels too. I was talking to Desiree Timms, Candace Valenzuela, and Kimberly Peeler-Allen. Still to come in today's program, a new novel by Sue Miller, Monogamy Explores a Long and a complicated pattern of grief. And the serial, the third episode of Things Fall Apart. Now, earlier in the week, you may have missed the actor Shobhna Gulati

discussing her book Remember Me, caring for her mother as she lost her memory, and Jade Edwards, who'll be driving at Silverstone in the British Touring Car Championship at the weekend. If you missed the live programme, all you have to do is catch up. You download the BBC Sounds app and there we will be. Now, it's not unusual when you look at the star players in some of the Premier League's male football teams

to find a good number have come from abroad. Take the Dutchman Philippe Sandler, who plays for Manchester City, or William Saliba with Arsenal, for instance. And now it seems to be happening in the Women's Super League. Over the summer, 73 signings have taken place and only 23 of them are English. The new arrivals include five of America's World Cup winning team, including Alex Morgan at Spurs,

who scored one of the goals that knocked England out of the World Cup last year. Why are English clubs such a draw for foreign players and what will be the impact on the women's game? Well, earlier this morning, I spoke to Christina Leiner, who plays for Reading and came from Norway, and to Jo Currier, BBC women's sport reporter. Who would she say are the new arrivals to watch?

Well, the biggest headlines are the fact that there are now five US World Cup winners in the Women's Super League. The most high-profile player will be Alex Morgan, who's moved to Tottenham. Now, you know the expression, no player is bigger than any club. Well, on Instagram, Alex Morgan has 9.2 million followers and Tottenham have 8.7. So this gives you an idea of how big she is.

We've also seen Pernilla Harder, the Danish attacking player who was named European Player of the Year in 2018. She's moved to Chelsea, as has Australian Sam Kerr, who's widely regarded as probably the best striker in the world. She's one of a large number of Australian internationals who have come into the league in the last few months. So the Women's Super League has never looked so glamorous, to be honest.

But why are the world's best female footballers now signing for English clubs? Well, I think there are three reasons, really. The first of which is competitiveness. The Women's Super League globally is now regarded as one of, if not possibly the best league in the world right now. And the top players want to play with and against top players week in, week out. Money is also a factor. Female players can earn higher wages here than they can in most countries. Just to give you an idea, I believe there are players in the Women's Super League who now earn £250,000 a year.

I mean, it's not a week like the Premier League players, but £250,000 a year is a huge amount for a female athlete. And it's also coronavirus, particularly in the case of the US-based players. Now, they'd normally play in the NWSL back home in America. But because of the pandemic, their season was cancelled and was replaced with a couple of mini tournaments. And for many players who are one year out from the Olympics, they felt it was vital that they went somewhere where they could get a full season of matches in a competitive environment. So in that respect, the Women's Super League has actually probably benefited from the pandemic.

Now, Kristina, you came from Norway last year. Why? What drew you here? I mean, as Jo said, it's a very competitive league and also the money has something to do with it. And finally, I can play professional football and that really helps and when I got the opportunity I just couldn't say no. So how different is the women's game in the UK compared with the experience you had in Norway? I mean I think the biggest difference is the intensity um and also like in england people are older and i

think they're more experienced so they're getting better and better in football in norway i think people are retirement uh really early because they're not making any money so they need to find another job to make a living so that's a big factor and the intensity in the English league is just very much bigger than it is in Norway. So can you make a decent living out of football in this country that you couldn't do at home? Yes. So in England I think there's a rule or something in Super League that everyone has to get some salary from it. And I think that will help that everyone can play professionally. Jo, what effect will this have on homegrown talent? Well, it is a concern to some extent.

We've certainly seen it in the Premier League, haven't we, where young English players have struggled to get starting places in Premier League teams because there are so many highly paid foreign players blocking their way. But that danger has been recognised by the FA. They're bringing in a quota system that means women's Super League clubs from next season will have to include at least eight homegrown players in their squads. It means the squads are 25. A minimum of eight of those players will have to have trained by that club or another club in England for at least three years prior to their 21st birthday.

So they don't want to see what's happening in the Premier League happening in the Women's Super League. But at the same time, they don't want to stop big name foreign players coming in either. And they're hoping that this will have a nice balance to it. How popular, Jo, is the women's game now? Well, if you cast your mind back to last summer, Jenny, in the Women's World Cup, when it came to England's World Cup semifinal against the eventual winners USA, that drew almost 12 million people watched that on the BBC. The new Women's Super League season started a couple of weeks ago. The BBC has a programme called the Women's Football Show that shows on a Sunday evening all the highlights that recorded two million viewers in the first week.

The WSL has broadcast rights right around the world. I mean, the popularity continues to grow. The money being pumped into it in terms of investment and sponsors is growing. And there's no sign of it slowing down. I think that the changing factor last summer was the fact that England fans didn't just see it as women's football. They saw it as football. And that's why they got behind the team. And I don't think there's any reason why this upward trend of support can't continue. Now, Chelsea, we know, were awarded the Super League title on points

after the season was ended early this year. How well is it recovering? Well, one way you'd measure how popular women's football is is how many people go to the game, bums on seats effectively, obviously because of the pandemic. We're not going to see female football, women's football is is how many people go to the game, bums on seats effectively, and obviously because of the pandemic, we're not going to see female football, women's football fans watching women's football in stadiums any time

soon. So it's quite hard to gauge, but from what I've seen from reaction on Twitter to articles, the fact that women's Super League got two million viewers in the first week, I don't think that the support for the game has been damaged at all. I mean, it's been on such a crest of a wave for so long now. I think as soon as fans are allowed back into those stadiums,

then they'll be there as soon as they can be. Christine, what was it like for you when the season ended early for the reason we all know, the ghastly pandemic? Yeah, I mean, it's never fun to not play, but I think everyone was just thinking about the big issue in the world right now which was Covid so I don't think anyone had something to say against that but obviously it's never fun to not play. How are things going so far this season for you then? I mean we had a tough game in the beginning against Arsenal. Arsenal is a great team. So we lost that game and that wasn't very fun. But we won against Aston Villa. So I think we can be better in the

season. I think we have better players. And yeah, it's going to be exciting to see. And Jo, which clubs would you say are tipped for success this season? Well, like we've seen for the last few seasons, the teams that are being tipped for success this season well like we've seen for the last few seasons the the teams that were being tipped for the title will be Arsenal Manchester City and Chelsea they're the the clubs who have these huge Premier League teams behind them they have the biggest budgets and because of the budgets they they sign the the biggest players I also think Manchester United this season uh will be up there pushing for those other three teams um there are three European football spots this season.

At least one of those teams is going to miss out. But yeah, I think because there's so much money involved in those clubs, the other teams will have to really go some do something incredibly special to get close to pushing them at the top of the table. We were talking about pay earlier. I mean, as you said, we are still very far from equal pay. Do you see ever women players earning as much as some of the top men do? It's a question I've been asked for many years, effectively.

When will women's football be as big as men's football? And I think the answer is it probably won't. Do I see women's footballers earning £300,000 a week, which is what we see? You know, Gareth Bale at Real Madrid was earning £300,000 a week, which is what we see, you know, at Gareth Bale, at Real Madrid was on £600,000 a week. I don't see that happening anytime soon, but they can certainly earn a very good living. And I think wages will increase. The turning point for women's football will be when it's self-funded,

when it earns enough from its own game that it doesn't need to take money from its Premier League men's team or from the FA. And I think when it's self-sufficient, when it's self-funded, that will be a real sign of success. And do you see that coming? I see it coming. I don't see it coming any time soon. The one problem the Women's Super League has struggled with is getting people through the gates, paying money, even though it's not a huge amount, and getting bums on seats. The bigger teams get decent crowds of a couple of thousand.

The smaller teams are still in the hundreds. And that's the area they probably still need to work on. You need to get people to want to go to these games and pay money for this product as well. I was talking to Joe Curry and Christina Leiner. I first encountered the American novelist Sue Miller in my earliest days on Woman's Hour. We talked in 1987 about her novel The Good Mother. She's just published Monogamy. It's about a couple, Annie and Graham, who've had a long loving marriage. Annie is friends with Frida, Graham's first wife, and with their son. The couple have a daughter of their own. Graham, we learn, has not been entirely monogamous in either of his marriages. Sue joins us from Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Sue, as regards the relationship between Annie and Graham, what do you reckon draws them to each other at the outset? For him, I think it's just he's very physically attracted to her. He finds her very compelling physically. And I think it's probably, in a certain sense, the great differences between them that attract each one of them to the other. Annie is very excited by his sort of vitality. He's a gregarious social person, and she's not at all. And as I say, Graham, I think, is drawn to something he finds compelling about the way she looks,

sexually compelling primarily. And then I think they so enjoy sex and each other's company that they end up getting married. Just as we're getting to know them, something shocking happens. Graham dies in bed, lying next to Annie. Would you read just that short extract of what happens as she finds him? She had this thought that she should put some clothes on him. Someone would have to come, someone who would see him like this. She couldn't think who that might be at the moment, the doctor, some ambulance guys, but she'd have to call someone at some point,

and she didn't want anyone looking at Graham naked. She leaned forward and kissed him and was conscious even as she did it of how false this was. She didn't feel anything for him, for this body. He was gone. And finally she wept for that, for how empty his body could be. She couldn't have imagined it. Graham was his body, big, energetic, alive, stilled. He was more absent than anyone else would have been. Sue, how hard was it to write such loss and shock? Where did your clear understanding of terrible grief come from? In my own life, it was my father's death, which I had a very protracted response to, in part because he died a sort of bitter death that was terribly bitter to me. He suffered from Alzheimer's disease, and just slowly everything was taken away from him. And he'd been a very scholarly, gentle, kind person. He was a church historian and theologian

and a deep believer in God. And so his death of this particular disease, which essentially robbed him of everything that made him fully human, was embittering and shocking to me, and I kept mourning it and mourning it and feeling a sort of generalized grief. So I think my experience with that, although it had none of the sort of deep married sexual charge and so forth that Annie's experience with Graham does, I think it really taught me a great deal of how awful and just sort of thoroughly compelling grief would be. Now, as far as the monogamy question is concerned, we often assume, I think, that the generation that Graham and Annie belonged to had it all and everything was wonderful, everything changed for the better.

But you seem to suggest the sexual revolution was damaging. Why? I'm not sure that I think the revolution was damaging, actually. I do think that it caused some damage in some corners of the world. And I think, for instance, Graham, really his first marriage ended because he embraced the sexual revolution so thoroughly. His wife had agreed with him. His first wife, Frida, had agreed to an open marriage, but she found she just couldn't stand it, actually.

And because she's a sort of very stoic person, she didn't complain in time. By the time she sort of was able to talk to him about it, she just felt so, so, so miserable that she just wanted out of the marriage, essentially. Graham, I think, it's a very mixed bag with Graham. I mean, it sort of brought him alive in some sense or another to be a more sexual person than he had been.

But it also, I think, I don't know that it caused his sort of capacity for infidelity, but he had embraced it and he liked it, and I think it made it more possible for him to sort of fall out of monogamy as time went on. I know sometime in the past you were accused of writing stereotyped men. I think that was in The Good Wife. How important in this case was it to you that we see Graham's infidelity from his perspective and begin to understand it?

Well, I'd reject the, of course, reject the notion that I've written stereotyped men. I think I have written very fully present men in a lot of different books. I can understand the charge as regards the good mother. But I felt as though that was my job here, was to present all of the characters, actually, with all of their weaknesses and to, if not make you forgive them and like them and that sort of thing, have some grasp of why they are the way they are. I sort of, that's been my

concern in a lot of my novels, to present people who are very complicated and do things you don't like, and yet seem very real to you and compelling. Character is my thing i think it's interesting you know when what i think i can call the big boys john hubdyke philip roth people like that write about relationships they tend to be seen as very serious very important writers of great literature. How important are women on the same themes perceived? I think we're seen as sort of writers of domesticity without any larger concerns at all. And there's a wonderful American critic, Diane Johnson, who wrote in a collection of essays that she thinks that people just haven't begun to understand what she calls female metaphors. She says we're all taught in school and elsewhere to understand male metaphors, you know, the voyage, sea voyage, the drive across the country, whatever, as metaphor.

And she says people just feel that, generally speaking speaking the female metaphors are seen as simply flat representations of life and have no further sort of larger, broader meaning. So I am and have been called actually in the New York Times the joyen of domesticity and that seems an unfair charge to me and to me actually i have read a lot of you and i agree with you just one last question why did this book take you six years to write well i made several false long false starts with it, several hundred pages long, sort of finding the right voice for it, really.

I was writing in the first person at the start. There were also things going on in my own life, which sort of took me away from it periodically. But I do think that sort of finding the way in, I found a way in, but it was the wrong way in several times over. And then when I finally got sort of into Graham, actually, he was my door that opened the way into this book. And there is just one further question I wanted to ask you. Why is the friendship between the two wives, the widow and the ex-wife, Frida and Annie, why is that so important? Well, I think it's, Frida's there really almost at the end of the book. I mean, and I think they understand each other in some ways. They're

very, very different people. But I think each of them sort of rescues the other along the way with difficulties with her child. And I think that they also, having shared Graham in some sense too, their understanding of each other is very deep. It took a while to become friends, but they're very deep friends. Sue Miller, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. And of course, the novel is called Monogamy. Lots from you on body image. Rose said in an email, I've suffered from anorexia and binge eating disorder. Now after therapy, I understand that the disorders were mainly a symptom of feeling no control over my life. With others, there will be other root causes, as there were with me. Body image played a part, but it was not a major one.

Someone who didn't want us to name her sent an email. Sadly, images on Instagram have lots of recovery images that are extremely damaging for someone who is genuinely trying to recover and is struggling with body dysmorphia. Also, the government should not put calorie information on packaging, etc. It's just a visual reminder that calories are bad and just helps eating disordered sorts to get stronger. Sadly, I've experienced this. And Gemma said in an email,

the combination of social media and our perfectionist society have resulted in far too many women feeling like they're not enough, constantly warring with their appearance, achievements and attitudes. As a model in the fashion industry, I've experienced the severity of this issue and have battled with body dysmorphia, anorexia nervosa, anxiety and depression. I feel that it's my duty to highlight this issue. Now do join me tomorrow if you can when I'll be talking to Alison Stedman. We'll be discussing a new film and a new television series in which she stars. She's been a very busy woman recently.

I'll also be talking to two of this year's Women's Hour Power List judges, Emma Howard-Boyd and Flo Hedlum. We're looking for 30 women who've made a significant contribution to the health of the planet and if you'd like to suggest someone for the list you can do it. All you have to do is go to the Women's Hour

website. That's tomorrow's programme two minutes past ten. Join me if you can. Bye bye. BBC Sounds Music, Radio, Podcasts My father-in-law lived alone. Everybody knew it. Late afternoon

in the high plains of South Africa a bloody encounter and a chase. If you attack on a farm your chances of surviving is not good. In a community stalked by fear and racial tensions, an explosion of violence puts a family on trial. What did they do so bad to get that beating? Bloodlands, presented by me, Andrew Harding, is available on BBC Sounds.

Just search for Bloodlands and download all five episodes now. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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