Woman's Hour - Women's Football, Head of Ofcom, The politics of Christmas presents

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

There are big changes afoot for women’s football. Former England Lioness Karen Carney published a review into the women’s domestic game over the summer and the Government has just announced that it will back all the findings from her report. That includes making the top two tiers professional and giving the sport a dedicated broadcast slot. Baroness Sue Campbell, director of women's football at the Football Association, discusses their decision.The head of Ofcom, Dame Melanie Dawes, talks about her plans to make tech companies stop children accessing online pornography in her first broadcast interview on the subject. Under the new Online Safety Act, which came into effect last month, the regulator has been tasked with coming up with age verification measures. Latest research shows that the average age at which children first see online pornography is 13 - although nearly a quarter come across it by age 11 and one in 10 as young as nine. By 18, 79% have encountered violent pornography depicting coercive, degrading or pain-inducing sex acts.A report out today details for the first time the views of the bereaved families of women killed by men. A woman is killed by a man on average every three days in the UK and the charity Killed Women is campaigning to end this and improve the experiences for families forced to deal with it. The director of Killed Women, Anna Ryder, joins Krupa Padhy to discuss the report’s findings ahead of a planned protest outside Parliament.Now it's only 20 sleeps until Christmas, and for many of you that might mean running around the shops buying all your Christmas presents. But one woman who is bucking this trend is the writer and journalist Nell Frizzell, who says that her family Christmases have improved since they stopped buying one another gifts. Nell and Ellie Gibson, comedian and one half of the Scummy Mummies who IS a big fan of gifting every festive season discuss.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and thank you for being with us. It's early December and you might be having a browse in the shops or indeed online for Christmas gifts. We want your comments on the politics of prezzies. How do you navigate giving presents? Who do you give presents to? The whole family? Teachers?

In my household, it's children only. And even then, it's something they want, something they need, something to wear and something to read. Maybe you opt for a secret Santa approach or you might have your eye out for a bargain all year round. Or you might be like the journalist Nell Frizzell, who will share with me why she no longer gives presents. 84844 is our text number over on social media. We are on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. Do email us through our website. And over on

WhatsApp, we are on the number 03700 100 444. And there are a couple of overarching themes running through this morning's show, reform and accountability. The UK government says it will back all the recommendations in the Women's Football Review led by the former England midfielder Karen Carney. I've been speaking to Baroness Sue Campbell, Director of Women's Football at the Football Association, for her reflections on what this means for funding, training and broadcast opportunities, but also how progress will be kept in check. And as I speak, the organisation Killed Women, a network for the bereaved families of women who were killed by men,

are taking the findings of their new report called You Were Told to Parliament. Only 4% of those surveyed thought their loved one's death could have been prevented. Anna Ryder, Director of the group, shares those findings with us. And staying with that theme of responsibility, we often talk about how to stop children accessing pornography online here on Women's Hour. So I am happy to say I'm joined now in the studio by a woman who's been tasked with making that happen here in the UK. She is Dame Melanie Dawes, the head of the regulatory body Ofcon. Under the recently passed Online Safety Act, her organisation is coming up with codes of conduct about how tech companies should operate.

The latest code being announced today relates to the age verification methods that they are expecting companies to use to stop children accessing pornography online. And we're going to be speaking to Dame Melanie Dawes about all of this and all the latest research. And that latest research shows that the average age at which children first see online pornography is 13, although nearly a quarter come across it by the age of 11. And one in 10 is as young as nine. And by 18, 79% have encountered violent pornography depicting coercive, degrading or pain inducing sex acts. Good to have you with us today, Melanie Dawes. Thank you. It's great to be on the show. Just to be clear about what Ofcom's role is in this process, you are setting out the expectations you have of tech companies,

you are not combing the internet to find the content itself. No, absolutely. That's quite an important point. Our role is to put the accountability onto the social media and porn and gaming companies so that they actually take more steps to keep us all safer online. And what we've done today is bring forward proposals for porn sites, commercial porn sites, to make sure that they put in proper age checks. Because as you've just said, Krupa, we've got a lot of under 18s accessing pornography online and that really is quite a problem. Those numbers were certainly worrying. You've set out in this guidance various steps for consultation. We'll go through what those recommendations are. But first of all, in terms of a timetable, how long will that period last? So the Online Safety Act became law about

six weeks ago. And we've come out now with two consultations straight out of the blocks. This is the second one. What we have to do is get views on that from the industry that's required in law. It's actually quite a good idea anyway, because we do need to hear people's you know thoughts and ideas and views on what we're proposing and it will take about a year and then it will firmly become law so what we're saying to the industry now is work with us from now you know our blueprint our expectations it's time to act because once this is formally part of the UK law in all its, we will start to come after firms that aren't complying with the rules. So what are the actual measures that you are proposing here? So our parliament has passed a really clear test here, which is that companies must have highly effective age verification at 18.

And so what we've done today is set out some of the things that that could include. So we're very clear that it does not include just asking someone what their age is, that isn't actually a check at all. But there are quite a lot of technologies now coming along, which mean that, you know, you can do this in a way that doesn't get in the way of adults accessing porn sites, if that's what they want to do. So it's things like maybe using an online banking app, which already knows what age you are, so you can get a yes, no answer to that other site when you want to go on. It's that kind of thing, quite practical steps actually, that will protect kids, but also not get in the way of adults doing what they are entitled to do by law.

So my question on that is, how do you guard against tricks to circumvent these various checks by users? For example, somebody might get an against tricks to circumvent these various checks by users? For example, somebody might get an older sibling to sign up for them or an adult might do it for them. How do you avoid those situations? Well, look, we're never going to have foolproof measures for absolutely everything. There isn't a silver bullet here. But we know that actually most young people come across porn accidentally, particularly younger kids. So I think what we're proposing will make a big difference.

But of course, it's also really important for parents to engage with their children. We know from BBC research, actually, that parents generally think their kids aren't watching porn online. But when you ask children themselves, the figures are a bit higher. So open up that conversation. But what we're putting in place will, we think, provide quite a lot of protection. You mentioned parents there. This code will only cover commercial porn sites. But some parents, guardians, teachers, carers, they might be listening to this thinking,

well, I'm more concerned about my child accessing pornographic material or inappropriate material of a highly sexualized nature on platforms such as Instagram, TikTok and other platforms like that. What would you say to them? Look, you're absolutely right. And we're concerned about that, too. We know, in fact, that the place that young people are under 18s are most likely to find pornography is actually Twitter, according to research from the Children's Commissioner. So next year, we're going to be coming forward with the third big piece of our blueprint for social media companies, and that will be about all those companies,

all those apps like TikTok, Insta, Snap, where we know that our young people spend their time putting in place a range of protections to make the experience more appropriate for teenagers. And that includes things like making sure that suicide and self-harm material isn't available on people's feeds with the intensity that it can still be today. And it will also make sure that pornography is properly educated for younger people. Obviously, time is of the essence. Is it not possible to carry out these in parallel? I mean if you are targeting pornographic material on these commercial sites

can you not be doing the same on these social media platforms? So what we're following is a timetable that really reflects the passage of the new laws through our parliament. So they set out the broad ordering. We've got, we've been absolutely required to get all of this sorted within 18 months of when the bill became law, which was a couple of weeks ago. That takes us to, you know, the spring of 2025.

But what I can be really clear about is that what we're not doing at Ofcom is waiting to just get all these codes sorted. At the same time, we have opened up pretty serious conversations with a number of the biggest companies, including some of the major porn providers for the first time, they're going to be talking to a regulator properly, about what they're doing today. We're getting information using our formal powers on what's going on on their services, so that when we finalise these codes and this guidance,

we can spring into action and carry out enforcement action if we need to. How have they been reacting? Well, you know, it's always interesting this, because before you've actually got your regulatory powers, you get these very constructive conversations. I think there are going to be some for whom that transition into realising that we've now got the law on our side, that will be tricky for some. But for many in the industry, we're hoping that this is going to be a constructive engagement.

I think as far as the porn company is concerned, and this is a huge global industry, it's actually the biggest part of the internet, the pornography side. It's by revenues, it's bigger than social media, for example. So this is a sophisticated industry. I think they know this is coming. Ofcom's been going to their industry events. We've been talking to them. They're having sessions on age verification. We're joining in on those. So I'm confident we can achieve some change here, but there will definitely be some for whom it's not what they want to do, but we have the tools to be able to go in with them, you know, with fines and sanctions if we need to, and we will do that. I've read that Meta is suggesting adopting app store standards for age verification. And I wonder what that exactly means, getting the app stores involved

here? Yeah, well, I think that's a good question, frankly. What won't change is the accountability that Meta now has under the new law for making sure that they know where the teenagers are on their services and that they deliver an age appropriate experience for those younger people. So if they can do a deal with Apple, if they can introduce something that works through the app store, great, but the accountability is with them now. So we're expecting them and other companies to work out what systems they can put in place. So the buck doesn't stop with the App Store if that was to be introduced, it stops with the actual company, the actual site? Yeah, the buck now stops with the companies. That's what's changed.

Would you advocate for App Store verification? Well, I think it can work. I mean, for example, one of the things we're proposing today is that, you know, some mobile devices, mobile phone devices will know how old you are because you've told them through, you know, when you set up the system. And so, you know, a porn site, for example, can have a yes, no answer. Is this person over the age of 18? That's using the information that's on the phone in quite a practical way. And as long as it's done in a way that doesn't transfer data, because that's really important that we preserve privacy as well, as long as that's all safeguarded, then that can be a system that works. So we're not saying at Ofcom, here are the details of what you must do. Today is about practical suggestions as to what can work provided you implement it properly, but also what can't work, like self-declaration of age. You talked about privacy there. There will be adults concerned about the suggestions. There'll be some pushback, as I understand it. Some people saying, well,

if you're going to access the age details of a child, that means you'll be accessing adult sensitive information as well. Yeah, well, look, this is a really important consideration. And the UK's got really strong data protection laws. And everything we're proposing is absolutely in line with those. But it's all about how companies implement this. And they will be responsible for making sure that as they do, perhaps gather information from banking apps or elsewhere to making sure that as they do perhaps gather information from banking apps or elsewhere to make sure that it's seamless for their adult users that as they do that they're not sharing data collecting data storing data in a way that breaches the law so we are absolutely clear about that they're going to need to balance getting the verification to be highly effective

with preserving data privacy which which is, you know, well, it's a legal requirement. And I imagine that would be your response to those tech companies that say tech doesn't exist to enforce this. Well, we think it does. Nothing is foolproof. That's, you know, the case in most parts of life, but certainly online. But there are companies that have already introduced some new techniques, for example, that estimate your age through your phone's camera or your laptop's camera when you go on. And again, they give a yes, no answer. They don't store your photograph or anything like that. And if you look a bit younger than you are, you can have a second go and produce another way of

verifying your age. That's in place on companies like on apps like OnlyFans, which we already regulate actually, and on a couple more where we've worked very hard with those companies to get that in place. So the technology is developing all the time, it will keep improving, but the expectations on the industry are now very different. Can we talk consequences? What practically happens if a site, if a company does not implement these safeguards? Well, we will be making sure we've got all the data that we need to keep monitoring this. And if we see companies not following the rules, obviously the first step is to talk to them and see if we can get them into compliance. But fundamentally, if they don't want to work with us and they don't want to change we can fine up to 10% of their global revenues and ultimately if it's a serious problem we can disrupt their

business and prevent it from being available to people in the UK so serious measures when we need them. Dame Melanie Dawes, head of the regulatory body Ofcom coming in to speak to us about those new recommendations to stop underage children from accessing pornography online indeed all children accessing pornography online here on woman's hour i'm sure we'll be speaking to you again in the coming weeks and months as the details of the online safety act continue to be released thank you for your time thank you thank you to the many of you who have been getting in touch with your various messages about Christmas presents. This one from Sarah says, buying Christmas presents can be so overwhelming. I buy for immediate family only and find it best to do a few presents at a time.

And another one says, we stopped the Christmas madness a few years ago. We buy gifts if we feel like it all year round. Our children are grown up and we help them out as they need it. We enjoy family time over the Christmas period without excess or pressure to buy stuff. We now don't have a house full of stuff that we don't need. Our most precious gift to each other is our time. Thank you for your messages. Please do keep them coming in.

There are big changes afoot for women's football. Former England Lioness Karen Carney published a review into the women's domestic game over the summer and the government has just announced that it will back all the findings from her report. That includes making the top two tiers professional and giving the sport a dedicated broadcast slot. Baroness Sue Campbell, Director of Women's Football at the Football Association, joined me earlier and I asked her if she was surprised that the government had accepted every recommendation of the Karen Carney review. I think we're delighted. Karen did a great job. And obviously,

we were heavily involved in supporting her. This was her review. I think, you know, we're at a seminal moment, really, for the women's game. And I think we welcome her review and we welcome the government's acceptance of her recommendations. But of course, the hard work starts now, the real work starts now, in that you've got to get club stakeholders on board. Are you concerned that this is just lip service? No, we last week announced that we have got all 24 clubs in the Women's Super League and Championship on board with the new vision for Nuco, which is the new company

that will run the professional game. The next big job is our broadcast tender, and part of what Karen recommended, which we're very keen to do, is get a consistent opportunity to view the women's game, to find a slot that really works for the women's game. And then, obviously, if we can get good broadcast deal, we've got a renewal coming up for our title sponsorship. The more commercial income we bring in,

the more we're going to be able to remunerate the clubs and the players. So it's a big circle, really, that needs, we need to get that virtuous circle working really well together. Expand on that a bit, because what kind of an impact could that critical broadcast slot have on women's football? Well, with the research we've done, which we happily share, it would have a massive impact in terms of broadcast investment. Because right now we do have very good support,

both from yourselves, BBC and All Fresh Sky and ITV, who do the England teams. But the real income generator would be to have a regular slot where people knew on a regular basis that's when the women's game will be shown. At the moment, the slots are very variable and it's quite hard to follow. So it's very important, I think, to us and certainly commercially very important to us. The report also refers to restoring a talent pathway for the next generation. I was surprised to hear that this isn't already in place. It is. We've got a very good talent pathway that we've really researched very well. What we haven't got is the investment in that talent pathway that we need to make it.

You know, one of our big criticisms has been that the women's game is not diverse enough. And one of our challenges has been that we've had so little money that we have a moment. You have 30 centres of excellence around the country. You've got to have a car to get there. You've got parents or carers who've got the time to take you. You immediately start to rule out an awful lot of young people and so what we need is much greater investment in the talent pathway and we've redesigned it so we have a program now called discover my talent which is a talent identification program in communities we've had around 3000 referrals from that through to our system. We've opened up our centres of excellence.

We've now got 72 of them, but we still need more. And then we've got our professional game academies, which are not like the boys because we're not starting early. We're starting post-maturation, sort of 16 for girls. So they're like they're finishing school, if you like, of development. And again, we need a lot more resource. So the big issue for us in Talent Passway is not that we don't know what to do or that we haven't started that journey, but we need a massive injection of investment. And you raise an important point about diversity, because it's not just about diversity

on the pitch. Equally, it's about that diversity off the pitch, isn't it? Absolutely. Very, very important. And we know we still have a massive job to do right across football, but in the women's game in particular. So we've now got a mentorship programme which brings in coaches from a diverse range of backgrounds to try and encourage, support and enable coaches, no matter what background they have, to achieve and travel through the game. Similarly with refereeing, you know, we, all of us,

men's and women's, need to do a better job in diversifying the people who referee our game. But our numbers of referees and our numbers of coaches at the bottom end of our pathway have increased massively and the diversity of that group is much improved. We've now got to help them travel the journey through the various levels of the game to get to the top. I'm amazed by all the various initiatives in place and just how positive you are, which is wonderful to hear. But there's always a sticking point when it comes to women's football

and that is often down to pay. When it comes to this review in particular, what's been said about female footballers and wages? Well, I think we are all working towards as much equality as we can. But the reality is, as with all business, and, you know, we can't move away from the fact we are a business, that the money generated in the men's game, commercially, broadcast wise, in every way, is way, way bigger than we are generating at this moment. So while we're pushing to get equality, the reality is we've got to get the income levels in order to pay out. Otherwise, we're just putting our game in deficit. And it's really important for the

women's game that we create a sustainable business model. So everyone's committed to this, but we've got to generate a lot more income. I think salaries have improved very greatly. And we at the FA certainly working very hard on ensuring things like we're moving towards equality in FA prize money. We're trying to move that all along. But the reality is the business model can only pay out what it can afford. You mentioned this at the start of our conversation, but this comes at an important time in women's football

as the Women's Super League and the Women's Championship clubs have signed to become a part of a new company called Nuco. How important is that going to be to the conversation around women's football inequality? Oh, it's massive. I mean, it's a landmark moment really for the game.

The FA has run the women's leagues and nurtured it through a large number of years and invested in it. But to get it to stand alone with a real commercial drive to improve broadcast income, marketing, revenue. I think this is a landmark moment. But we don't want to, in that moment, to lose the very essence of what is great about the women's game. There's so many wonderful parts of the women's game

that are very distinctive and different from the men's. And what are those? It's important to remind ourselves, isn't it? First of all, you only have to be at Wembley on Friday night in what was a thrilling, extraordinary encounter to feel just the enormous joy and happiness of 75,000 people sitting in a stadium. It's a very different atmosphere for the women's game. The relationship between the players on the pitch and the fans is very different. The way the players conduct themselves is somewhat different.

The relationship between the players and the referee is different. We don't want to lose that because it's that feeling that these players are authentic, they're real, they're the person next door, they're someone that you can admire, someone that we can look at as real role models the way we want young girls and women to achieve success and to go on in life and do great things. So we want the women's game to be much more than just football. We want it to be something that inspires a generation of young people, not just to play our game, but to live their lives as they wish and to go on and do great things in their own lives.

And that's really important to us. You mentioned Friday's game when the Lionettes played the Netherlands, losing 2-0 at halftime and then they went on to win 3-2, an amazing comeback. Tied to that, that's just a clear example of where women's football is heading. The Lionettes have secured £30 million in grassroots funding as well for what is being called the Lionettes Future Funds. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I think the players that play for England still take massively seriously their

responsibility to the game as a whole. Immediately after the Euros, when we'd won the Euros and a special moment they were asking how do we use this platform to make sure that girls get equal access to football and again at the World Cup how do we use this platform to drive change and that's the 30 million investment in facilities these players themselves take responsibility for the game. It's not other people. So, you know, I think that's what's so positive about them and about what we're doing at the moment. A lot of people say this is all great. And we talked about lip service at the start of this conversation. But how are we going to ensure that these suggestions actually get implemented?

Who's accountable? I was going to say you're looking at her, but I think it's a responsibility we've all got to take, whether we're working for the Football Association, Newco, the clubs in the structure, the players themselves. We all want this game to be strong, to be vibrant, to be sustainable, and for the players to retain their role model status, but also to earn good salaries and make a good living. So I think the game as a whole has to take responsibility. It isn't one person, it isn't one organisation, it's all of us committed to the same vision. And I think we are. And I think Karen did a great job giving us a template for the road ahead. There's a lot of work still to be done. Do you anticipate a timetable for these changes to come into play?

Yeah, we've got most of it scheduled. I mean, Newco will be fully functioning and up as a legal entity in its own right by next August. Facilities, we continue to make. We're just putting together a facility strategy for the girls and women's game and the 30 million plus more we hope in the future will really help us do that. Equal access, we have commitment from the Department for Education and I think we'll all continue to make sure that that equal access message is both understood and implemented in schools. We're very clear where the responsibilities lie for each of those recommendations and we'll all be working together to make sure that we don't leave anyone left behind and that we implement these things properly and effectively. You've long been credited with helping to transform the women's game. Did you ever think we'd be having these conversations, breaking these barriers? No, if I'm honest. I think when I started nearly eight years ago now, I came in because I have a passion for girls' and women's sport.

And I believe football is one of the most powerful tools we have in our sporting landscape to affect change, not just in girls playing sport, but affect change in society as a whole. And that's what we've worked at. I've assembled an incredible team around me. Like anybody in a leadership position, you don't do this thing on your own. You do it because you're surrounded by great people. And I'm very proud of where we've come to and very proud of the team and immensely proud of where we've got to. But I don't think I could have anticipated we'd get this far.

A pleasure speaking to Baroness Sue Campbell there, Director of Women's Football at the Football Association. And there's plenty more on that story over at BBC News Online. Just a reminder, we'd love to hear from you on any of the stories that we are covering. That text number is 84844 on social media. That's Instagram and ex-formerly Twitter. We are at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website and don't forget we are now receiving your WhatsApp messages and audio notes too. That

number is 03700 100 444. All of our terms and conditions are on our website. Now, you may have heard this figure before, but it's so important that we want to remind you of it again. One woman is killed by a man on average every three days here in the UK. Each year, the Labour MP Jess Phillips reads out their names in full in the House of Commons. This year, it took her five minutes to read all of those names. Here's a short clip. Sabita Thanwani, Yasmin Begum, Shatira Beebe, Sherry Bruce, Helen Laurie, Emma Bailey, Ramona Steyer, Alison Nelson It's these women and their families left to deal with the impact of their deaths that has galvanised a movement of people who today will take their concerns to Westminster and protest outside Parliament. It's organised by a campaign group called Killed Women,

representing the relatives of women killed by men. And to coincide with the protest, it has published a report today that gives a detailed picture of the experiences of bereaved families and their views on the failings that led to the death of their loved one. Anna Ryder is the director of Killed Women. I spoke to her earlier, ahead of her going to Parliament. And she told us about the people who contributed to this report. So this report, for the first time, has given voices to the bereaved families of women that have been killed by men. And the pain and the trauma of that family is writ large on every single page.

You know, we've had mothers whose daughters have been mutilated, stabbed hundreds and hundreds of times. We have had children who witnessed the murder of their mom complete the survey and be part of this report. We've had children who were dragged back to live with the perpetrator who'd killed their parent after they'd served a sentence. So families that have been through unimaginable trauma for most of us. And that pain is on every single page. But what this report also has in it is incredible insight, it, the most fundamental finding, it's that for too long we have seen these crimes as unavoidable tragedies, something to be accepted and expected. These are just things that are unfortunate, but they're unavoidable. These things happen to women. And not treated them like the preventable crimes that they are. Just 4% of families that took part in the survey

thought that the crime committed wasn't preventable at all. 67% thought that it was fairly or very preventable. And these aren't just... There's evidence backing this up. You know, they're not just fantasies for these families. So it was two-thirds of the perpetrators that murdered their loved one had a history of violence or abuse. And 78% of in the cases where the victim had experienced previous abuse from the perpetrator, at least one service knew about it. They knew about that abuse and violence that was happening and didn't act to stop it.

And on that, we have had a response from the National Police Chiefs Council lead for domestic abuse. Assistant Commissioner Louisa Rolfe said, Since 2020, we've been working with academics and the vulnerability knowledge professional practice team to study every domestic homicide and suicide following domestic abuse in England and Wales. This has led to a number of improvements in the police response, but also emphasised the importance of wider support for victims. She goes on to say, I'm saddened to hear of cases where victims' families

believe opportunities have been missed. She goes on to say that there are many dedicated, skilled and compassionate police officers who investigate domestic abuse. However, policing alone doesn't hold all the answers and prevent tragedies like the ones that we have heard about from the Killed Women Network, and it requires a whole system response. What struck me going through your various numbers was that the highest numbers of people who chose to come forward

were sisters, mothers and daughters. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, these families have come together to be part of this report and be part of the kill women network more broadly because they desperately want to campaign for change they desperately want to stop what happened to them happening to anybody else to any other families which is takes extraordinary bravery and extraordinary courage but i think we're all everybody that's part of the network, irrelevant of if they're male or female, the urgency that they feel, what they want to ask

from the state is to try and stop these things happening, stop these crimes happening in the first place. You know, we wouldn't tolerate it from with any other types of crime, you know, terrorism, organised crime, all of the focus and resource is on preventing those crimes happening in the first place. And we don't do that with violence against women and girls. We treat it like it's a bolt of lightning that we can't predict or try and stop or do something about when we can. And so that's what we're sort of calling for from this report is a sort of reprioritisation and refocus on prevention and early intervention. You also look at the wider justice system. What did you find in this regard?

Yes. So some of the other key findings from the report were that families felt that justice was denied. When these awful crimes did happen, 90% of the families that took part in the survey felt that the sentence given was too short. And they gave a variety of different reasons for that. One was they didn't think it reflected the brutality of the crimes. As I said, you know, at the beginning, some of these families, they'd lost their loved ones in the most horrendous ways, using overkill, which is the excessive use of force far beyond needed to take someone's life. They didn't think they reflected the risk to society that many of these perpetrators pose. So we had several respondents where the perpetrator had killed before, like this wasn't the first woman that they killed or the first person that they killed and then one of the other key issues that the family is brought up when when saying that they felt that the sentences were too short was the disparity they felt between

the sentences given in many domestic homicides that happen in the home where a weapon is found at the scene of the crime so for example a from the kitchen, which is very common in some of these cases, where the starting point is 15 years, the starting tariff is 15 years, as opposed to the starting tariff being 25 years when a weapon is taken to the scene of the crime, which commonly more happens in a public space. And the families, in essence, felt that that meant that the way that women die, those lives are diminished. If we start at 15 years for domestic homicides that happen in the home and the weapons found there versus starting sentencing bill ensure that criminals who commit rape and other sexual offences spend every day of their sentence behind bars up from 50% when the government came into power in 2010. Was any of this reassuring for you? Yes, I think for the families, we're stepping in the right direction. We're moving in the right direction where we're now taking violence against women and girls seriously and responding to it and again you know

not treating them as unavoidable tragedies and injustices that happen behind closed doors and we don't the state doesn't need to intervene or act upon it um so these are steps in the right direction but i know that the families want more um We want a full reform of the legal system and the criminal justice response to these crimes to make sure that the sentences given are just and hold perpetrators to account. Where you did find a glimmer of positivity was in the aftercare? Yes, so the families rated the response of police and GP practices as good. Over half saw their response as very good or fairly good in responding to the homicide. And actually, it's important to mention here,

as the MPCC did, that you know some of these families spoke about the incredible care the officers or individuals gave them in the darkest moments of their lives they wrapped themselves around them and helped them and supported them which is which is is fantastic and should be applauded um what we want to see is that level of service response happening before these crimes happen. There was a stark difference there in terms of how families felt services had responded to previous abuse and previous violence before these crimes happened to how they responded afterwards. And that, again, it leads to our sort of the most urgent ask that we have from this report,

which is we need a prioritisation and focus on preventing an early intervention around violence against women and girls rather than just responding to them in the crisis moment afterwards. You are taking these findings to Parliament today. What are you doing? So one of the... So we're presenting the report um to parliament and to the press and to the public and asking asking them to to share the report and share

the findings um and then one extraordinary member of our network uh a young man called Zeb, who lost his sister Poppy in 2018, has organised an amazing installation where there'll be over 100 placards of each representing one of the lives taken in the last 12 months since we launched. And each with a message written on from a bereaved family that's part of the network. I think it will be an extraordinarily powerful installation for the families that are coming to see it today. And we hope will be a powerful call to action to policymakers and decision makers who are able to do something about the crisis of violence against women and girls that this UK has at the moment. And it's so important to remember those names in that installation that you mentioned being a very good example. And on the subject of names, the report talks about the word victim and often how these women are summed up and thought of after their death. What do you think of this word victim? So you're totally right. right and actually you know in it in the

report we say we know we use the term victim um but we know it doesn't sum up who that woman was or the scale of the loss for that family um you know i think one of the one of the reasons that we started the kill women network and produced this report was to elevate the voices of of these women of these women, of these lives taken and the bereaved families that are left behind. Because they know better than anybody the true scale and cost of this crisis. These women's lives, these women's names are our strongest argument for change and they should be elevated. They should be part of campaigning.

They should be part of policy development and change. And that was one of the motivations for starting this organization to elevate those voices and make sure they're at the table in this in this fight against violence against women and girls yeah um education you talk about the need for greater education but what do you think specifically needs to be changed here? So the report is very much the beginning of our sort of policy development and response and we will be we will be working on specific policy answers to the problems that we've highlighted as a next step of our work as an organisation but But within education specifically, and not just within schools and our education settings, but more broadly, you know, it sits under that prevention

focus that we have. You know, it wasn't very long ago that we saw gendered violence and domestic abuse as something that happened behind closed doors, that happened between a couple. It wasn't something that state intervened with. So there's a culture of misogyny and inequality that exists in society and still exists in society. And we're moving forward, but we need to keep going. And I think that a key part of that is educating our young people, both young men and young women, about healthy relationships, about consent, about domestic abuse and coercive control. So we can tackle problematic behaviours and problematic attitudes very early on before they get to a stage of severe violence. You know, the families that are part of the Kildren network are the brutal consequence of inaction. And education is a key part of that.

We need to teach our young people and teach the whole society about equality, about stopping misogyny, about healthy relationships, consent, and treating women with respect. You collected all this data, these stats, important data, and it's troubling to hear all of what you've shared. Do you have any reason to feel hopeful? I think, so the families are hopeful. I mean, the work that they do, taking grief and trauma like they've experienced it and channeling it into change takes a huge amount of courage and bravery and hope. You know, the worst thing imagined will happen to them, but they are hopeful enough that they can see a shift and see a change and stop it happening to anybody else in an extraordinary way, in a way that, you know, I think courage might evade myself if I had to do it.

So they are extraordinarily hopeful, but they're also extraordinarily... They want to encourage more, faster. You know, I think in the last couple of years, since several heartbreaking, high-profile mergers, I think it was two and a half years since Sarah Everard was killed. There has been change. I think violence against women and girls has become an issue

that the public know about and care about and want to see a shift in. And we're beginning to step in the right direction, but we need to go further to ensure that women are able to live. It's not even about protecting women. It's about allowing them to live free and safe from violence. And that was Anna Ryder, the director of Killed Women,

speaking to me earlier. And if you've been impacted by anything Anna was talking about, then you can head to our website where you'll find links to resources for help and support. Now, I want to flag something a little different that we are doing on our upcoming Boxing Day programme. We're going to

be speaking to women who dig for the truth in their working or personal lives and we want to hear from you. When have you had to dig for the truth and what did you discover? Maybe you found a long-lost relative, solved solved a local mystery exposed a family secret or even dug up something special in your back garden do get in touch in the usual ways on text 84844 on social media at bbc woman's hour or of course you can send us an email via our website we're saying with that festive theme it is only 20 sleeps until Christmas. And for many of you, that might mean running around the shops, buying all your Christmas presents or online.

But one woman who is bucking this trend is the writer and journalist Nell Frizzell, who says that her family Christmases have improved since they stopped buying one another gifts. To tell me more, I'm joined by Nell herself, plus Ellie Gibson, comedian, and one half of the scummy mummies who is a big fan of gifting every festive season good to have you both with us hello hi now let me start with you why do you not give presents to your family and friends

here she comes the ghost it's the christmas past ask me what i'm up to I mean it's not because I'm mean and it's not because I don't love my family um it's basically because I think having to schlep around an overheated like wham blasting polyester stinking shopping center for the whole of December and probably a lot of November is a terrible way to treat the people you love, to expect them to do that for you is so miserable. And, you know, the amazing thing about traditions and Christmas is that it is what you make it. You know, if you do things in a certain way, your family and your children will just grow up thinking that's how it's done. And so I'm really lucky. I'm a privileged woman. I can, if I need pyjamas, I can buy pyjamas. If I want a scented candle, I can get a scented candle. I don't really need my 73-year-old mother or my full-time working sister or my six-year-old son to go out and buy those things giving gifts at Christmas is, you know, older than Christmas. The Druids were exchanging things and, you know, and the Romans at Saturnalia were exchanging things.

But mainly that was stigs and twigs. It was bits of mistletoe. It was bits of holly to sort of wish you luck for spring. So maybe this year, you know, we went through, we'll do it under a fiver. We'll do homemade presents. You know, we'll do it under a fiver we'll do homemade presents you know we'll do things that you have got second hand experimented absolutely yeah I'm giving up on the nicotine gum we've gone cold and it's now absolutely nothing but maybe this year twigs and sticks or nothing how do you explain that to your six-year-old son I haven't had to really you know that he goes to school with enough people who

don't get Christmas at you know don't get presents at Christmas because maybe they celebrate Diwali or Eid or you know they're doing a different festival or there are always going to be people around you who can't afford to do this you know as the YouGov poll I was looking up from last year said the average Briton spends 64642 at Christmas. £300 of that is on presents. There are so many families this year who don't have £300 to spend on presents. And I think if people like me are not buying presents, I don't send my child into school reeling off this huge list of landfill that he's been given. And that will ease it for the children whose parents can't afford to give them that kind of thing. And I think it's about setting

expectations. Also, Christmas, you can do it in so many ways. You know, there's food. What children really want is time off school. They want to stay in their pyjamas all day. They want to watch too much telly and eat something brown. But now, I've got little ones what about the magic of Santa well I you know Santa is not my responsibility he does the same thing and he leaves footprints on the stairs that smell surprisingly like coconut and he eats his carrots and and food arrives in the stocking as it does in Germany and it does in Eastern Europe you know different days of the year um but personally

I don't I don't do anything like that he sprinkles a bit of fairy dust um I want to bring Ellie in here how do you feel about all of this oh oh I love Christmas I have got an elf on the shelf spreadsheet uh to help him organize his activities I've got a Christmas wallet journal where I keep a list of all the presents I'm getting everyone and then year to year I can make sure I don't get them the same thing I'm I'm super into it I mean I agree with a lot of what Nell says and of course a lot of people aren't in a position where they even have the luxury of making the choice about whether or not to buy presents and personally I'm lucky enough I do have that choice and I love it so uh yes I'm I'm I'm down I'm down the shops most days in December,

having a marvellous time. What's been your strategy this year to present buying? Well, for me, I think we do do wish lists in our house. I mean, yes, I have a nine-year-old who has a list of landfill as long as your arm, quite honestly, most of it Danish, small brick based. But what we do in our house, we have have lists but we have an agreement that we understand we're not going to get everything on the list and we don't so then what you do get is a surprise especially for me because my birthday

is in october so i give my husband a list of birthday presents in october and then he gets me a few things and then because i'm 46 by the time christmas comes around i've forgotten what was on the list so it's's a marvellous surprise. I go, oh, how did you know what I wanted? And he goes, because you wrote it down. But that's a system we've had to develop because he's given me some terrible gifts over the years. Oh, tell me about terrible gifts. Yes, yes.

My husband once gave me a Tottenham scarf and I'm not even a Tottenham fan. But that's a good question. I've had this message in from Marianne who says, I am sick of passive aggressive gift giving. I'm at a peak stuff and I need nothing. And I tell my friends so. Then one of them comes along and hands me a gift. And despite my desire not to have the gift, I then feel obliged to give them something in return.

How do I get them to stop? Or do I just say thank you and carry on without rather returning the favour? Now, do you want to take that one? Cut the door on their fingers. No, I think there are so many other lovely things you can do at Christmas. I genuinely think offering childcare or respite care for people with carers. Oh, that's interesting. A token maybe. Make them some meals for their freezer, go around, paint their kitchen, you know, repair things. I'm sewing on a lot of buttons and darning a lot of jumpers for people this year instead of giving them presents. Do their washing up, push their buggy, get them a library card.

There are loads of things that aren't presents that you can do for people around Christmas that are really valuable and will last a lot longer. But if you've got one of those friends who just cannot resist giving you something i think you just have to have a couple of wrapped bits of coal and throw it at them as they as they go past ellie have you ever had to reject a gift uh what what not so much reject but what i have done is is taking terrible gifts and turn them into comedy uh so in our current show i show the audience some of the gifts my husband has given me over the years like a men's toiletry set that was a hit one year actually said sporty and fresh on it two words i've never been described as uh that was quite good always terrible underwear often men like to give uh don't they terrible underwear whereas what we really want especially

at christmas is a pair of enormous comfy pants so big you can put the turkey in and defrost it with your own body heat. So I think we maybe need to be just a bit clearer about what we want for Christmas to avoid the waste. This message says, I detest Christmas, but my partner loves it. So for Christmas, he goes away to his mother's and I stay at home and I have a duvet day with the dog. Now, how do you deal with people who might want a present

but aren't getting one from you? And that might be your partner. My husband's love language is gift giving. And so we are a very unhappy couple at Christmas because he occasionally says things like, oh, I'd really like a running watch. And I just act like I can't hear him and walk away. So I think it is tricky. And I think if, you know, if there are people in your life and it's really important to them, then, of course, that's the thing that you have to negotiate.

And when I say negotiate, I mean bring in the UN weapons inspectors because it can get pretty spicy at home when you're talking about these kind of things. But also they have to respect the fact that you don't. Like this year is my birthday today. My husband has changed the handlebars on my bike from drop handlebars, straight handlebars. And that is genuinely the kind of present I want something useful.

And that I will, you know, be, it will save my sciatica for years to come because Ellie, I am sporty and fresh. I actually am a sporty, fresh woman. So you could have done what you could have done with that cosmetic kit.

I've got a question for you, teachers, to both of you. Oh, some school have done this brilliant thing where they've written to all the parents and said, please don't give teachers presents. Bring in one thing per day during Advent for the food bank and then the head is going to, or one of the staff is going to take all of those things to a food bank at the end of term and I really applaud them really applaud them for doing that because my husband's a teacher he gets given so many mugs and bottles of wine but it's also

so unnecessary you know it's it's enough to get a card or for your child to just be nice and not smell and turn up and be friendly. Absolutely. I've done research into this. I've asked some teachers what they really want for Christmas. And the answers are basically cash in a brown envelope or just to be left alone. Basically, just stop emailing them. They don't know where your child's coat is and they don't care.

Leave them alone for Christmas. Well, our school does something interesting. They ask everyone to give whatever they can to a little pot and then the teachers go and have a big fat party afterwards with all the money that's raised at any point in the year. So there's another idea. I do want to read a few more of the many messages that we are getting. This one from Grace says,

I haven't given or received presents for years and I gave a sum to charity instead. Another idea from this listener Grace says, I haven't given or received presents for years and I gave a sum to charity instead. Another idea from this listener who says our family, both sides, decided around 10 years ago to stop gifting between adults. As soon as any child in the family reaches 18, that's it. It works really well. What do you make of that idea, Ellie? Kids only? Oh, no. My mother stopped helping. She stopped leaving my Santa out, my stocking out for Santa when I was about 22. And I remain devastated. I've had to have years of therapy. I'm very sad about it. I think just just keep it going.

And what do you make of that now? Well, my sister is eight years older than me. And so Father Christmas stopped visiting her eight years later than me and so um father christmas stopped visiting her eight years later than me which i thought was rather natty on her part um but we didn't get i mean we didn't get a stocking we got my grandmother's support tights you know in sort of bamboo or mink would be laid out across the bed so after father christmas came it looked like there was a sort of dismembered old like miss marple the end of your bed, which is always a bit of a strange start to festive proceedings. Ellie, I want to know what is on your Christmas list this year, both for you that you

might like or what you're giving? Oh, well, I would like a lie down, maybe some vodka. And again, just to be just to be left alone alone I'd like to do a poo without anyone knocking on the door asking me for a biscuit or whether remote control is or what is that on your list for Santa yeah and what are you giving that's right um well I I'm gonna I like you know I don't I'm giving people things they've asked for what they they need it's a good excuse to give children clothes at Christmas isn't it that's like a two-for-one deal but I do like to give um a sort of personalized gift so I always do um like calendars for the grandparents with photos of like the kids throughout the year and I just think that's a nice personalized thing

and if you haven't got kids or if you don't like your own children why not use pictures of someone else's children Stacey Solomon's got some lovely children that I'd probably prefer to look at quite honestly Maggie sent in an idea here she She says, my family's based in Ireland and it's a big one for 25 years now. We have matched adults in the family with a named child in the family. They buy a present for that one child and we set a budget.

Thanks very much for that idea, Maggie. And I know all about budgets. When I was a kid, my mum said that Santa had a £10 budget from the Argos catalogue. And I thought that was true for many, many years. And this one says, I adore giving gifts at Christmas, I have a grandson of 18 months, another on the

way, three adult children and partners and my husband, all of them get Prezzie's and even though my kids are in their 30s if I can sprinkle a bit of magic into their lives then I'll be that Christmas fairy, there you go, someone in your camp Ellie and I do need to ask you now,

how are you celebrating your birthday other than speaking to us about Christmas presents here on Woman's Hour? I'm going to go with my mum to see the Welcome Collection. So that's always a nice thing to do. There you go. An outing, memory making.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you both. I might sprinkle some Christmas dandruff over myself. Thank you both for your time. That is Nell Frizzell, a writer and journalist, and Ellie Gibson, a comedian, and one half of the Scummy Mummies. A big fan of Christmas.

Nell's doing it differently, but I wish you both a very happy Christmas and to all our listeners as well, thank you for your messages. That is it from this edition of Woman's Hour. Do join me tomorrow when we have some real treats in store we're keeping up with that Christmas theme that my guests would include the icon of home cooking Dame Mary Berry and the Oscar winning actress Julianne Moore who will be discussing her brand new film May December but for now that is it from Women's Hour do keep that conversation going over on social media at

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