Woman's Hour - Women's Football in '71, Mollie King, Female psychopaths

Episode Date: March 8, 2024

A new documentary, Copa 71, follows the trailblazing women who headed to Mexico for an unofficial Women's World Cup in 1971. Woman's football had been banned in many countries including the UK for 50 years. Unperturbed 6 teams gathered and played in front of crowds of 100,000 fans. One of those players, Chris Lockwood joins Anita Rani alongside co-director of the film Rachel Ramsay.On International Woman's Day Maidenhead MP and former Prime Minister Theresa May has announced she is standing down at the next election, telling the Maidenhead Advertiser she has taken the “difficult decision” after 27 years representing the constituency. She becomes the 63rd Tory MP — and the most senior — to announce that they will not be standing again in 2024. She says that causes such as tackling modern slavery were taking an "increasing amount" of her time - as a reason for her stepping down now. We hear from David Lee - deputy editor for the Maidenhead Advertiser who broke the story and assistant editor at the Spectator Isabel Hardman.What’s it like being the first, directly elected female Mayor of Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone? Yvonne Aki-Sawyerr talks about her career in politics and a new BBC Africa documentary which follows her run up to elections. New research suggests that female psychopaths could be up to 5 times more common that we previously thought. So what are the main differences between men and women when it comes to psychopathy? How do you deal with a woman who fits the bill? And what could the wider impacts of this study be in terms of our court systems and other societal sectors? We hear from Dr Clive Boddy, an Associate Professor of corporate psychology at the University of Anglia Ruskin who’s conducted this research. And Estelle Moore, clinical and forensic psychologist and chair of the London Psychological Professions Network. The Radio 1 presenter and singer Mollie King joins Anita to discuss her Red Nose Day challenge for Comic Relief – a 500km cycle across England, setting off from London and crossing the finish line in Hull, the hometown of her late father. She explains it’s the first time she’s cycled on a road, how she plans to navigate busy city centres, winding country roads, and unsteady terrain, and her fitness journey since giving birth to her daughter in 2022. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey Studio Manager: Tim Heffer

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour on International Women's Day. Of course, you know, we celebrate women every day in this space, but today gives us all a reason to think about and focus on the other 3.95 billion people on earth. This morning, though, I'm interested in you and your lives, or more specifically, the woman in your life who you want to draw our attention to. An unsung hero. It could be someone who means a great deal to you or someone who's inspired you or helped you in some significant

way. Maybe it's someone you've admired from afar. Who is the woman in your life who you think deserves a shout out on Woman's Hour on International Women's Day? What's her name and why is she so special? Let me know and let's acknowledge her greatness today. Get in touch with the program in the usual way. You can text me on 84844 you can email me via our website or you can contact me on whatsapp it's 03700 100 444 and of course our social media is at bbc woman's hour i'm going to start by giving a shout out to the entire woman's hour team it is an absolute joy to work in a space like this and so yeah big up the woman's Hour team. Also on the programme, you will hear about the biggest female sporting event that's ever taken place that you've probably never heard of.

A Women's World Cup that happened in Mexico City in 1971. A brilliant new documentary tells the story of this extraordinary event and it really is extraordinary. Radio 1 presenter and ex-Saturday Molly King is about to embark on a cycle challenge for comic relief, but not before she's told us how she's feeling. Yvonne Aki-Sawyer will be sharing her experience of being the first directly elected female mayor

of Freetown in Sierra Leone, and what is the definition, if there is one, of a female psychopath. All of that, and of course your shout out. So that text number once again, 84844. We would love to hear from you. But first, Maidenhead MP and former Prime Minister Theresa May has chosen International Women's Day to announce she's standing down at the next election, telling the Maidenhead advert, she's taken the difficult decision after 27 years representing the constituency. She becomes the 63rd Tory MP and the most senior to announce that they will

not be standing again in 2024. She became Prime Minister in 2016 after the resignation of David Cameron following the Brexit referendum. Her three years in Downing Street were dogged by the Brexit aftermath. A snap election in 2017 saw her lose her majority, but she remained at number 10 after striking a deal with the DUP. Her leadership style was often described by critics as robotic, something she famously answered with a Maybot dance before a Conservative Party conference speech. She says that causes such as tackling modern slavery

were taking an increasing amount of her time as a reason for stepping down now. Well, to talk about this, David Lee, Deputy Editor of the Maidenhead Advertiser, who broke the story, joins me, and also Isabel Hardman, Assistant Editor at The Spectator. Morning to you both. David, I'm going to come to you first.

What does it say about her that she picked up the phone to talk to you to announce this? Morning, Anita. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's been a crazy morning. We found out yesterday when Teresa called our editor and said, look, this announcement coming. Yeah, we'd like to kind of do it for the advertiser. And I think it just speaks volumes really about the trust that we have between the paper and Teresa herself. And yeah, it was just a real kind of privilege to be able to be the first to tell this story.

And yeah, I think it kind of speaks to her role within the community really as a, I think a lot of people said a real constituency MP. Which we're going to talk about because I know you've got real insight into that. But Isabel, she didn't go on social media. She didn't go to a national news outlet. She went to the Maidenhead advertiser. What does that speak? Yeah, that is very much her style. As David says, she is a very committed constituency MP. She was a councillor before she came into Parliament. So for her, local politics is really important. and I think she you know she's not that into Twitter she's not sort of constantly she's not like Kemi Badenoch who's always having fights with people on Twitter she's she's just been that kind of local person who's very committed to the

idea of service I mean she's just you know she's recently written a whole book about service and she thinks that politics should be done in this proper understated sort of way. What do her constituents in Maidenhead think of her David? I think the key words people probably say are kind of the loyalty that she's shown the community and and her commitment really. I think she will be missed in my time at the paper over the past nine years you know kind of every week she she is attending events she really is one of those mps that is she doesn't disappear off to the house of commons and then you never hear from her like she genuinely is involved in all these different community events be it kind of marshalling the easter 10k or doing our kind of annual christmas card competition

what does she do with the annual christmas card Yeah, that's a big one for us each year. So she comes in and we have kids from around the area. They all do their designs. And then she picked a winner, which is sent off to royalty and politicians around the world. So, yeah, it's a nice little event that she makes the effort to really be a part of. And I think small acts like that do mean a lot to people in the community

and we appreciate it as well because it kind of just keeps that link with the paper too. What was it like when she first became Prime Minister? Well, yeah, I actually met her on her first public engagement after becoming PM. It was at Maidenhead Festival, so kind so kind of you know big big event for the town as you came down there who was headlining oh i think it would have been a tribute act they normally have some sort of i think this year they've got uh potentially some taylor swift tribute act lined up i can't remember who it would have been back then maybe maybe a george michael one but um yeah it's always always a big act but um yeah i just remember a real buzz about

the place and um yeah she was still then kind of happy to kind of speak to all the community and I think that everyone at the time was just it felt pretty special for Maidenhead to have our MP as the Prime Minister. Isabel what's your reaction to her stepping down? I mean in lots of, not hugely surprised because there are a lot of Conservatives who are concluding that life in opposition is going to be quite boring, quite miserable. And if you're someone like Theresa May, who really does believe in trying to get things done, she's clearly concluded that lobbying the government uh from the back benches is going to be less effective when she is in the opposition party than if she's on the outside working with some organization i mean she you know she may end up in the house of lords and so it might not be the end of her connection with parliament but um it's a conclusion that a lot of Conservative MPs have reached, that they may well be more effective outside of Parliament.

Opposition does attract a certain kind of politician. And, you know, you can completely understand why a lot of them are thinking, actually, I'd rather crack on outside. And what will she most be remembered for during her time as prime minister and as an MP more generally? Well, I think that, you know, the failure to get Brexit done will really hang very heavily and does hang heavily on her, but also hang heavily around her reputation. But there were a lot of other things that she did manage to do, particularly as Home Secretary, I think, and then continuing that work as a backbencher. So as she's mentioned in her statement, modern slavery, she was the Home Secretary who introduced that legislation. She's most recently been campaigning and pushing back against some of the legislation in the illegal migration bill, for instance, that she feels weakens the protections for victims of modern slavery. But the other really big thing that she did when she was Home Secretary was on domestic abuse.

And this was really before, I think, conversations about domestic abuse, about coercive and controlling behaviour, about emotional and financial abuse were that widespread. She really cottoned on to the fact that protection for domestic abuse victims legislation around non-violent forms of abuse uh weren't good enough and i think there's you know there's a lot of women who actually owe her quite a big debt i think because she has she's done a great deal in that area when it wasn't particularly fashionable to be talking about it and when people didn't fully understand that so and that's something again that she's continued to work on particularly the connection between domestic abuse and health and women who come into hospitals and gp surgeries so i think those things are actually in a sort of tangible sense there are a lot of people who will

personally benefit from that and what about within the constituency david what she what did she do specifically for women? So, yeah, I think I've kind of mentioned it earlier, but just the support she would always show by turning up to events and being present. I mean, I was kind of looking through our archive this morning and just last week, you know, she was attending a kind of church event organised by Christian women across the area and it was kind of a nationwide thing.

I think she just, she made an effort, yeah, just to be present and to kind of turn up to these events, show her support and kind of be that link with constituents, really. And she came to the Mad Hatter's Tea Party fundraiser. Yeah, we were thinking about, I did suggest doing that as a kind of picture for the front page, but yeah, it was outvoted. But yeah, no. What was the photograph that you wanted to put up?

I think it was a pretty wacky hat, yeah. But it was, yeah, stuff like that. She just got involved. She did just get involved, really. She was, I can't think of too many times where she would have turned down, kind of turning up to one of these events. I think showing that support um you know as an mp is important but then you know she has she has spoken out on key issues i mean in in recent months the kind of rail network in our

area has been absolutely diabolical and this is where where mps can kind of play their role and and put pressure on on on in a national sense. So, you know, she was across all the issues that were affecting constituents. So I think she does deserve credit for that. Well, thank you both for speaking to me this morning, David Lee and Isabel Hardman. Your text please, 84844. Lots of you getting in touch with the women that you want to give a shout out to on International Women's Day

on Woman's Hour hello I want to shout about my mum Pauline Whittaker Pauline had a massive stroke and following it lived with locked in syndrome

she was left unable to speak walk, read or write yet for the seven years she lived mum continued to pat her bedside invite me to sit lie next to her while she stroked my hair. Oh, this is wonderful.

Her love for her children was always evident. Without language, she was still able to express her love and offer advice. Pauline Whittaker. And Claire says a shout out to Kirsty Poskett, who is our fabulous youth group leader in Tadcaster and also independent town councillor. Single mum of two children, friend and inspiration. Her passion to improve our community, which is regarded as part of Selby, a deprived area, is huge. And she's an active supporter and ally of children,

women and all marginalised communities. So this morning we are giving shout-outs to the women in your lives who you feel deserve to be name-checked on Woman's Hour. 84844 is the number to text. Now, the inside story of the 1971 Women's World Cup, largely lost to history until now. A new documentary, Copper 71, follows the trailblazing women who headed to Mexico City for a tournament that wasn't backed by FIFA.

In fact, women's football had been banned in many countries, including the UK, for 50 years, unperturbed. Six teams gathered and played in front of crowds of 100,000 people. I have to say, I'm just going to put it out there, one of the best things I've seen recently, everyone just needs to go and see it. And one of the players who's in it joins me now, Chris Lockwood, who played for England in that World Cup, aged just 15, and we're also joined by Rachel Ramsey, co-director of the film. Welcome to you both. Thank you.

I watched it last night, Chris, and I almost can't believe that you're sitting in front of me. You were 15? Yes, I wasn't the youngest either. I was 14 and 13. How did your parents just let you go off to Mexico we've got a lot to thank them for a lot yeah but yeah Harry the manager and his wife came and and asked if we could go and um lucky for us our parents had all the faith in him and off we went I love it Harry

just came around so well he was a very convincing man can see, and very passionate about women's football. Rachel, before we get into the nitty-gritty of it, though, where did the idea from this documentary come from? Where did you discover this brilliant footage? Well, the idea came from the fact that the England team themselves had been reuniting about four years ago. For the first time in 47 years, they hadn't spoken to each other. They reunited and the BBC picked up part of that story.

And that was heard and that was her there was a snippet of an interview with Chris was heard by our producer Victoria's husband who who listened to this and thought right I've got to got to get back and talk to Vic immediately and see if she knows about this story because it's the kind of story that you know we as a team had been looking for for a long time um and Victoria looked into it and said no I've never heard about this she contacted me and said have you heard about this i said no and you know and along with the people that have made up this team like we have we've made sports documentaries for a long time and the fact that we'd never heard of this um what does that say yeah i mean one thing it says that

there's a lot of other stories out there as well we hope about women um yes we know um hidden away and and yeah and it sort of it answered them it's answered quite a few questions we've had about the place of women in football particularly and this idea that a sport that is so universal and that crosses languages and race and class and so long as you're not a woman and is that and how can that really be true so yeah that's what we started digging into and finding the footage. I mean, it does. It still gives. I mean, I've seen it hundreds of times. It still gives me goosebumps. I mean, the whole event gives you goosebumps.

The fact that this huge World Cup took place in front of that packed stadium in Mexico. But what really stands out is is Chris is the women. It's the story of all of you. And it's an international story because you've interviewed the women from the danish team the italian team the french team mexican team and of course the english team let's go back to the 60s and 70s if we can for a minute chris what was it like being a girl who loved football uh yeah um well uh i a lot of us have said we thought we were the only girls that played because we were alienated from each other and um so a lot of us have said we thought we were the only girls that played because we were alienated from each other. And so a lot of us grew up playing football with the boys who were very acceptable of us.

You know, we had a good relationship with anybody that liked football. And it wasn't really till senior school that I wasn't allowed to kick a ball at all. And, yeah, I know it sounds strange now, but in games and that, I was discouraged. It was all netball. And if I did kick a ball, I got sent back to the dressing room. So, yeah. And it made me feel like I was quite naughty and rebellious, which I suppose, yeah.

But, yeah. Well, yeah, that's what you're made to feel. You want to do something that you're the outlier. So you're rebellious for wanting to play football. I mean, is that a nice feeling though, being a bit rebellious? Yeah, it's nice looking back now. Yeah, definitely. So then Harry knocked on your door, put together a team.

And what was it like arriving in... Had you ever been on a plane before? None of us. And two of the girls were in the RAF. So I had you ever been on a plane before? None of us, none and two of the girls were in the RAF so I assumed they had been on a plane but when we reunited and I've spoke to them even they hadn't been on a plane

before so yeah none of us Did you have any idea what you were about to step into? No, I mean I'm quoted now quite often saying that when we got there late and all the flashlights went off, I actually thought there was someone famous on our plane, not realising it was us and none of us did. And then it was like...

I guess it was like being the Beatles. Yeah. Because, you know, everywhere we go, we had to have police escorts just because the fans wanted autographs and give you gifts. So let's get, where did this tournament idea come from? Because FIFA didn't back it.

No. It was created by a group of very entrepreneurial Mexican businessmen who had been responsible for part of the organization of 1970 men's world cup, which was the year before. And they had all this infrastructure set up and there was a huge appetite for it. And they said, right, let's just do this again, but we'll do it with women because, and because they were outside of the football establishment, they weren't bound by the same, the same mad idea that no one would want to turn up and watch women

and women wouldn't want to play. So they put it on. And it's this idea of, you know, we said it a few times, but you know, build it and they will come. And it was this whole parallel universe. Imagine this world in which women are not laughed at for wanting to play football, in which it wasn't a strange idea to put up 100,000 tickets for sale. And these tickets were sold and they were sold. We've got all the original, we've seen the original ticket stubs. They were for the same price as the men's world cup the year before and the sponsorship was there and there was a there was a mascot and there was merchandise how did they advertise it everywhere in and everything i mean that's how we started all of the research actually is there a quote that says soccer's gone sexy there was quite a

few of those things soccer's gone sexy south of the border was one of them yeah um and there there was this sort of, you know, the world that these women were in at the time was still pretty tough and still very sexist. But at the same time, there was an acceptance over 50 years ago that a lot of people, even today, can't quite believe what you're witnessing because when you've grown up in our time of course women's football is having its moment quite rightly and is here to stay but you know when you've grown up in an era where you're told well no one's interested and then you watch this documentary and there's a hundred thousand people screaming fans cheering 15 year old England players well what was that experience like being in that stadium even when we were training in early in the morning, we had 300 or 400 children come in. Well, we'd only had one man and his dog before, you know. So that was just exciting for us.

And then we'd be signing autographs all the time. Yeah, it was just, it was truly amazing. And we thought when we would come home, it would raise the level of women's football in our country, but it got shut down again. It's such a beautiful documentary and you really get a sense of the excitement and the buzz and also the camaraderie between the teams.

I think there's a moment where, there's a few moments where the Danish bus breaks down, Danish team's bus breaks down and the Italian team pick them up. Yeah, there's this few moments where the Danish bus breaks down, Danish team's bus breaks down, and the Italian team pick them up. Yeah, there's this real sense of sisterhood and this collective experience throughout all of the teams. And that was one of the things that was most enjoyable, you know, going around the world to meet all of these women and to, you know, spend a really good amount of time

getting to know them before you even bring out a camera. And a lot of the similarities that they had, a of their experiences were um yeah work at work collective um and a huge amount of support and that's why you know we we don't it's quite an unusual sports documentary in that one people don't know what the outcome is because no one knows what the tournament is yeah but also you're not really rooting for one team and so when you structure it like that and you say actually the winners from this are the women all together yes anyone that feels that they've had their right to self-expression taken away whether that's where they wanted to play football or anything else not that i want to give any spoilers away but i have to i was rooting for england yeah sorry about yeah it's all right

we don't have to say anything it's all good don't worry about it um another moment that really stood out for me was um when the team had carry some, they carried their own teammate off. No stretcher came on. It's like the team carried their own teammate off and the punch up. Yeah. Well, I mean, I found, I mean, it's a great, it's edited brilliantly. So let's just say there's a very feisty Italian team. There are.

And, you know, and they were, but they're expressing themselves through, you know, there's this element of the passion and there's this element of rage, you know, that. Yes. That moment comes about because of someone else sticking their nose in the game. And because of, funnily enough, you know, when a male referee gets involved and makes a decision. But there is this, you know between and then but between the women themselves you know yes there's a bit of no love loss i mean there was so much passion and there's so much like the level of competition and athleticism and desire to win it's you know this wasn't a this wasn't a sort of a casual tournament this is all very very real and trust me the women

that as we interviewed them, they remembered all of, we didn't show them the footage before we did the interviews. So all of those memories are crystal clear from over 50 years ago. And they know exactly who tackled who when. Is that right? So they hadn't watched any of the footage because the ins and outs, because you interview,

it's so joyful watching you all being interviewed about this. You've got, you found team members from Italy, France, Argentina, Denmark and Mexico. How did you track everyone down? Well, that's all part of the investigation, part of having a really brilliant team from around the world. Yeah, I mean, I did know one or two still, strangely, but only through WhatsApp. And, yeah, I mean, the film people did a brilliant job.

I know Rachel's here. I couldn't believe how well it was put together. Yeah. What was it like? Because watching it, I mean, it was spine-tingling for me, watching it and hearing you tell your stories. Did you feel like you were part of something really special and that you were fighting for something?

Looking back now, probably, but at the time we were like female gladiators, I suppose you could say, because we'd never played in sort of that kind of arena. And so the first time I saw the film in its entirety was at the South Bank in October, and I was so shocked, I couldn't remember anything of it. You know, people were talking about it.

How did it make you feel, watching it? Very pleased. Very pleased that we'd chosen to go ahead with it because we were quite reticent at first. You know, will we be ridiculed what we've got to put a leap of faith into this film but is there a reason for you to think that sorry to interrupt yeah because you know because people listening might think well why would you be ridiculed but there is a reason why you thought yeah because we were banned and we hadn't seen each other for 47 years and so we didn't know that each of us until we met up

hadn't spoken about it because we felt ashamed and yeah it's just a psychological thing because if someone bans you you think you've done wrong and that's how it was in those days so yeah so which is the heartbreaking twist on this that you just done something so extraordinary had the most room you're 15 years old you've gone to mexico you've played in front of a hundred thousand people you've had this magical experience and you come back and you feel ashamed yeah i know it's but you know like i said, personally, I had it in my heart. It was always there. But it was just in my heart because there was no way of telling the story or expressing it because it was like buried in history.

Yeah. But not anymore. Not anymore. And not only is it out there for everyone to see, it's time for you to be celebrated. I want people to be happy. Well, you're a pioneer chris yeah but yeah people say they cry but i don't want that i want them to be happy happy for the next generation and yeah that people can do what they want now so how do

you feel now seeing england winning major trophies oh so proud of them. Yeah. And they're real athletes, you know. They've got in the most extraordinary way. Thank you both of you for coming in to speak to me, Chris and Rachel. Copper 71 is out in cinemas today. Take your daughters, take more importantly, take your sons, take everybody, go and watch it. It's absolutely joyful. Thank you. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Thank you. So we're celebrating women in your lives on International Women's Day. Any shout outs you would like, send them to me. Terry says, I would like to name check my sister, Janie Frampton. She received her OBE this week for her work on equality for women in sport. Today would be a fitting day to recognise my wonderful big sis. There you go. And Lisa says, the best woman I know is Matilda, my 17-year-old daughter.

She's beautiful inside and out. She's dyslexic and has always felt like she has to work extra hard to prove herself as she was made to feel stupid at primary school. She's now at sixth form college doing maths, economics and politics. Go Matilda. She wants to be a trailblazer for women in STEM and for all girls who might have been made to feel less because of a neurodivergence. Good on you, Matilda.

Now, Yvonne Aki-Sawyer had it all. A successful career in finance here in London, two beautiful children and a husband. Her life was set. Or was it? Because in 2014, Ebola spread across West Africa, hitting Yvonne's home country of Sierra Leone. Refusing to stay in the UK and watch it pan out on the news,

she decided to fly out there and help those in need. But what was initially supposed to be a three-month volunteering placement turned into a ten-year stay and in the process, she became the first directly elected female mayor of the country's capital Freetown back in 2018. And it's not all been smooth sailing. As mayor she's faced attempted government coups, attacks on her party office and the many challenges that come with being a woman in Sierra Leonean politics. Well BBC Africa Eye has been given access to her life in the run-up to the elections. Mayor on the Frontline is now available to watch on the BBC News Africa YouTube channel,

and Yvonne joins me now to tell us more about her life. Yvonne, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Great to be here. How did it feel hearing that intro? Did you ever think when you were in London, working in finance, that you'd be where you are today? Not for one moment. Never crossed my mind. I want to go back to 2014 and that urge to to be drawn to help because lots of us watch things on the news. What was it in you that made you catch get that flight to go and help and volunteer? I guess what was in me had always been there. So, you know, back in the early 90s or the 90s when we had the war,

I was already in the UK working. And I remember when January 6th happened, January 6th, 1999, the day that Freetown was invaded and 3,000 people died, I called telephone numbers from an international aid agency that was, you know, talking about the crisis and asking for donations. I was less than satisfied with the response that I got. I felt like, no, this is not, they're not, they don't understand what's happening. And I'm not sure they're making impact. And a couple of months later, myself and six other Sierra Leoneans living in London established SLWT, Sierra Leonean War Trust for Children.

That's now 25 years old and is still making an impact. Back then, we immediately targeted women and children who were displaced and were living in the refugee camps in Freetown. We went on to build a school in the north of the country to service 28 villages, Waterwell Health Center, started a school for agriculture for ex-child soldiers. And then for the last few years, we've been supporting girls through their secondary school education. So when Ebola struck, the chord that was struck in my heart back then in the war years was just reignited. And, you know, just felt that if there's something you can do, do it. And there was something, so I did it.

But what made you go from volunteering you went out there initially for three months of volunteering to becoming mayor of Freetown what what made you decide that you needed to step into politics so that was um that came through directly through sanitation and and um environmental what people now refer to, everybody talks about climate change. But for many of us, you see the impact, you see the issue, you don't know the terminology, and you just want to fix that thing. And for me, after the outbreak, I left for three months, as you rightly said. But when the outbreak did not end, I did not leave. So I actually did not come, you know, sort of end my involvement until Ebola was declared over on the 7th of November, 2015. At that point, the Sierra Leone government and the British government, well, the British,

I served as a consultant with DFID to the Sierra Leone government. I was asked to lead the post-Ebola recovery program in the capacity of team lead for the president's delivery team. And I should say that my three-month volunteering stint, actually, after a few weeks, I was, I was, I moved from that role that I came out to, to being the director of planning for the response. So I, you know, that's, I was in quite, I was in quite a significant leadership role during the response. So at the end of that, I was then asked to play this other role. And it was in that position, a position where my job was to work with ministries, departments and agencies and the external consultants, McKinsey, to form or implement transformation across a number of sectors. And at the time, the sanitation challenge in the city was overwhelming. And I remember saying to the chief of staff, there was no process.

There was no system. There were piles of garbage everywhere, like literally piles of garbage. The system that the local government had, that the city council had, had failed, had broken down. And so I said, I designed Operation Clean Freetown. And in doing that, I could see the gap. And it just seemed obvious. This is really short-cutting quite a long mental process. But it got to a point where a friend said to me, she'd been in sanitation for years. She was like, you've done more in sanitation in the last six months than we've been able to accomplish in years. You cannot, you cannot stop. You have to run for mayor. And I remember laughing and saying, you're joking. That was the 23rd of May, 2017. The next morning I woke up thinking about it. I called my husband

and said, you're never going to believe this but and as I drove to work that day everything I saw was like I could do that I could do that by the time I got to the office I was pumped yeah and I was like okay I'm gonna run for office quite into the way your brain works Yvonne I have to say when you did pick up the phone and speak to your husband and say I want to do this what did he say what did your family make of your decision to stay again? So I think the initial reaction from my husband when I said, I'm thinking about it, I don't think he took me seriously. I thought, you know, I think he just thought, okay, that's this morning's conversation. And then when later on in that month, I went, well, just literally in less than two weeks later,

I traveled back to UK and had that sort of serious family conversation with them. My daughter's reaction was, mommy, you left for three months. You've been gone for three years. And now you say what? She was not pleased. My son was also quite concerned of the impact on family life. But my husband and I have been together since I was 18. And our hearts are really aligned when it comes to Sierra Leone.

And he understood, you know, in the months that followed, it got easier. And in the years that followed, I think it's my kids always say to me we accept and we support it doesn't mean it's easy for us does that make it difficult for you that's so much but does that make it difficult for you because they're still in the UK and you are there yeah no definitely definitely I've missed out on so many mom moments that, you know, and they've missed out on so many mom moments. It's definitely had a toll, but I'm really, really grateful for where our relationships are. I'm also really grateful that somebody invented FaceTime and WhatsApp because, you know, we talk constantly. It's not the same. And they do say to me, it's not the same.

But we raised them when SLWT was started and we were campaigning against the trade in blood diamonds. And I was setting up the, you know, raising money from Comic Relief. I remember my very first meeting, I was breastfeeding Jordan. You know, when we do our, we used to do every year, a 5K run in Battersea Park to raise money, to support the children affected by the war. And my little ones, you know, they were, they've been doing that 5K since they were about two. I remember Jordan doing a 5K when he was five years old.

And interestingly enough, he was admitted to Kingston hospital that night with meningitis and he had done a 5k in the morning so they were raised knowing our love for Sierra Leone and they share it and you see my daughter in the documentary because she came um to support um and to be part of well she it was yeah to be part of what her mum was doing. It can't be easy being a woman in politics. What keeps you going? What keeps you motivated? The same thing that got me there in the first place,

that desire to make a difference. You know, I did a TED Talk some years ago, and it's called The Power of Dissatisfaction. And the bottom line is, if you're not happy with the way things are, then there's always something you can do, so do it. And that's what keeps me going. The fact that there is still so much to be done and no matter how challenging it is,

there is so much that I and others can do and inspiring other women has been also a motivation. I'm sure you've done that this morning. There are so many more things I could ask you, Yvonne, but sadly we've run out of time. It's been a pleasure speaking to you this morning, Yvonne Aki-Sawyer. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. 84844, lots of you giving me names of women that you would like mentioned on the radio this morning, and I'm going to get as many as I can in. Rita says, I'd like to nominate Bridget Real, my my mum who despite being confined in the Magdalene laundries in Ireland as a young woman went on to live an amazing life and have 15 children see she was a legend in her own right Jane Britton says Mrs. Raffaele Ebberson a neurosurgeon at Salford Royal Infirmary saved my life following a hemorrhage she's an unassuming woman who I am thankful for every day. And I'd like to nominate Sarah, who set up a charity,

The Listening Place, which offers face-to-face support for people who think life is no longer worth living. Sarah's energy and compassion are an inspiration to all the volunteers who work with her. Keep your names coming through. Now, what comes to mind when I say psychopath? Patrick Bateman peeling off his face mask in American Psycho, perhaps? Well, maybe we should be thinking more of women, as new research has found that female psychopaths are up to five times more common than we previously

thought. So what are the main differences between men and women? Here to answer some questions on this are Dr. Clive clive body an associate professor of corporate psychology at the university of anglia ruskin who conducted the research and estelle moore clinical and forensic psychologist who worked for almost 30 years at broadmoor and chair of the london psychological professions network welcome to both of you clive i'm going to come to you first you've done the research but how do you define the term psychopath? Well, the essential characteristic of a psychopath is a lack of emotional responsiveness to other people. And neurological investigations of their brain chemistry and connectivity indicate that the areas of the brain which are in charge of emotional processing and emotional

information don't activate in the same way as they do for other people. And this means that they lack meaningful interpersonal relationships, they are incapable of love, they have no empathy for other people, and they treat other people as things to be used in furtherance of their own self-gratification or self-advancement in life. The characteristics of the Sankhya Bhavata, I think, are the same between men and women, the underlying characteristics. So when you first meet them, they appear, and these are organisational or primary psychopaths I'm talking about, not the violent antisocial psychopaths that I imagine Estelle is more aware of. So you think you've met your next best friend, somebody who's going to be helpful and useful to you in your career or future.

And it's only afterwards that you learn that they're also untruthful, lying, conning, they are deceitful. And they claim, do things like claim the good work of others as their own work, as a way to get advancement in organizational settings and they have a lack of insight into their own behavior and a lack of conscience because of this emotional deficit that they have i'm going to bring estelle in as well because to talk about this um i mean estelle there's lots of people who might have heard the phrase my ex is a psycho i would say are you even a woman if you haven't been described as a psycho at some point? It comes with a lot of baggage. How would you define it?

And also, is there something, can we be distinct between how it portrays in a man and a woman? Thanks. Thanks very much for inviting me to consider that. I think there are differences, I think, unhelpful to them or harmful to them. Behaviors like gaslighting or gossiping or leaving others out. Those are the sorts of presentations that might be associated with that in general parlance. But I suppose in clinical settings, there are more, there are some, you might distinguish between behaviour that's antisocial as well and and and harmful um and then in in the workplace i think it's quite some of my research has shown um uh more dominating and controlling behaviors that would be that be worrying really is it nature or nurture or is it more complicated

than that i'm going to ask you both this go on estelle do you want to start clive nature or nurture? Or is it more complicated than that? I'm going to ask you both this. Go on, Estelle. Do you want to start, Clive? Nature or nurture? Well, it's always more complicated than that, isn't it? Yeah. Personally, I think, and the evidence for this is that the nurture part comes in terms of how the psychopathy expresses itself. So if you come from a caring, well-educated,

socio-economically advantaged background, then your parents, when you're growing up, will be able to steer you away from trouble or provide you with lawyers to get you out of embarrassing legal situations. And you'll eventually become what I refer to as a corporate psychopath. If you're from an abusive, less advantaged background, then you may steer towards becoming a violent antisocial psychopath and eventually end up in jail or under the care of Estelle or someone like her. So that's my view. I mean, there's also the idea of sociopathy, which implies that people are socialized towards being psychopathic or sociopathic.

So, for example, if you were born in a mafia family, and I was just reading a paper about women in the mafia, then you'd be taught that it's okay to go and kill your enemies um those people can be re-socialized because they still theoretically have a conscience in there they can be re-socialized to say well actually that's wrong maybe you shouldn't do it and and your research clive you're saying female psychopaths are up to five times more common than we previously thought talk us through a bit of that research and what are you saying these psychopathic traits that have gone undetected in women are? Well, I've been using, since 2008, measures of psychopathy among the general population, which are basically based on the work of Harvey Cleckley, who

was a pioneer in this area. He wrote a book in 1941 called The Mask of Sanity. So I've been using Cleckley-based measures to measure psychopathic in the corporate population. And really, my main thrust of my research is about the effect that these people have on their fellow employees, the organizations that they're supposed to work for, and society at large in general. But I got a student, a doctoral student, who's looking at female psychopaths in a particular sector of the economy in Australia. And therefore, I started to read more and more about the subject to try and help her if I could. And I realised that

the common theme among researchers on female psychopaths is that the measures we've got to to identify them are all nearly, or a lot of them, especially the early ones, based on studying male incarcerated criminal psychopaths. And therefore, they're not subtle enough to pick up the more unnoticeable behavior that a female psychopath might engage in. Like Estelle, you've worked in Broadmoor. Can you give us some typically female psychopathic behaviours that we might recognise or may even recognise in famous figures?

Well, I should start by saying there are no women in Broadmoor anymore. They've left. There is a national service that's based in Nottinghamshire in Rampton Hospital, the National Service for Women. So the numbers are very small of women in in high secure and um medium secure services the clinical populations but coming back to your nurture uh question which i think is really important um um what we do see in clinical

populations would be very high rates of trauma history for those people that as as clive's describing might be described as secondary psychopaths, so that life experience and the interplay between what's happened to them and the formation of the personality is often that there's been high trauma that's unprocessed, and that's what's linking, that's what ultimately comes out in the form of manipulative and other behaviours.

So I think we've got to, I think it is a really complex question to untangle. And trauma history is really important. So sometimes we might want to be thinking, rather than asking what's wrong with this person, we might want to try and consider, well, what's happened to them and how might we understand the nature of their behaviour? What are they defending against in the way that they interact with others? What's it been like for you then treating female psychopaths and i know you're in your 29th year at broadman it's mainly men but you know how does that how do you how does

that work with you well i remember back in the day when the women were here just um some of the way some of the behavior that we encountered in in this setting um so so women would be uh sometimes we'd experience greater levels of i suppose emotional dysregulation so uh which we do we'd expect with um difficulties in the midbrain so um quite high rates of um uh verbal assault on others but also a self-harm on on on themselves so uh but this we're talking about a very unique and very small members of the population i think what's really interesting in client's research is maybe more around a more successful psychopathy um in the workplace which you know dominant behaviors and controlling behaviors that um that women might display

which is slightly in a slightly different way to men. Like what? How can they display in the workplace? Well, things like, we're very hot on this lately, things working with bullying and harassment, but subtle behaviours like gossiping or other ways of being toxic and needing to express their one-upmanship, which is, again, it relates to a way of coping with possibly early distress that's become part of a form in the personality. So time and again, the person's experienced as toxic to others, as Clive described.

Well, you've mentioned gossiping, and Clive, you mentioned gaslighting. What would you say, Clive, to anyone who suspects they might have a psychopathic boss or a colleague? How do you deal with it? Surely it's not for us to be able to diagnose this. I mean, I tread very carefully saying these things, by the way. The best thing to do is to gather evidence of their behaviour. So write down who was there, what happened, who witnessed it, what the behaviour was, and build a dossier of information. Because quite often, when they're

bullying and abusing people, they bully and abuse multiple people in the same space at high frequencies and very badly. The difference between a male and female type of bullying is that a male will do it in open office space shouting at you right in your face until you cry, whereas a female will take you into a separate office and do the same thing in a much more subtle and psychological and emotional way. The net effect is the same on the subordinate um but it's it's less noticeable from the when the female's doing it because they do it more in private um and so sorry to answer your your earlier question which i didn't fully answer what i once i started looking at female psychopathy i went back over my earlier

research for the last uh 20 years or whatever it is and i looked at the actual figures between male and female and i'm getting ratios of 1.2 to 1 whereas in the literature it talks about 10 to 1 or 5 to 1 or 4 to 1 so I'm picking up a lot more primary psychopaths in the female population than I should have been if current theory and current estimations are correct well it's it's a fascinating subject and we've barely scratched the surface um but thank you both for for joining me to talk about that thank you Estelle Moore and Clive Boddy. 84844, lots for you getting in touch with the women you want to celebrate on Woman's Hour on International Women's Day.

Tim says, I'd like to mention my wife, Emma, who stood up and battled tirelessly for our son. He died in 2021, aged 22. She never accepted no for an answer and was always fighting for a better life for Oliver. She is incredible. Someone else has said, as a mum of my amazing daughter, I would like you to mention

the heart-bursting pride that we feel for our daughter, Emily Hatt, who's just about to submit her PhD thesis at Birmingham University. She found her passion for astrophysics at Birmingham,

which has been an amazing journey from almost giving up maths at A-level to seven years of an MSE and a PhD. Go, Emily Hatt. Keep them coming in. I'll try and get a few more in.

But now, Radio 1's Molly King. Rose to fame as a singer with the Saturdays and with co-host Matt Edmondson, has recently been bumped up to weekday afternoon hosts after covering the breakfast show on weekends on Radio 1. She's now swapping her mic for a bike as she prepares for the biggest endurance challenge of her life pedal power for red nose day we'll see molly take to the saddle for five exhausting days

as she attempts to cycle 500 kilometers across england for comic relief she sets off from radio one in london on monday and will cross the finish line in hull the hometown of her late father on red nose day next friday and she joins me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Molly, you're already my hero. Can I just say, I said that it's going to be exhausting and I said that you're going to attempt. It might not be exhausting. You're not going to attempt it. You're just going to do it. How are you feeling? I love your positivity there. I am, gosh, even just hearing you there, I can't believe it's literally happening on Monday. I've been training for this for the last sort of six weeks.

That's kind of how much notice I've had. And honestly, I have been giving it my everything. I'm feeling all the emotions. I'm feeling nervous. I'm feeling excited. I'm feeling quite overwhelmed at just how much I sort of don't know about what's going to be happening. But no, I'm excited and I'm looking forward to starting now. Why are you doing it? 500 kilometres, London to Hull. Why undertake this challenge?

Yeah, it's going to be an almighty challenge for me, this. This is going to be the biggest endurance challenge of my life. So I actually lost my dad just over a year ago. He was diagnosed with a brain tumour, and we lost him just three months after that. And it was an incredibly hard time in my life. And I think that one of the things that I was able to kind of see as a positive thing off the back of that was just I want to help other people who are going through their own struggles and their own difficulties, whatever that might be. And I think that the amazing thing with Comic Relief is that they

do help so many people. I've seen firsthand the organisations that they help and the charities that they help. And I just wanted to get involved. I just wanted to help other people who have been, you know, sort of hurting and who are struggling like I have been sort of over the last, you know, 12 months. Yeah. And it is Women is woman's hour Molly so I've got to ask you daughter just given birth to your daughter as well so you know the struggle how did you get through it I mean so to lose your father and so you've got the joy of your daughter and the grief of your father huge emotions all at once it was it really was Yeah, my daughter, Annabella was born. And then my dad passed away 10 days later. So it was a incredibly, incredibly hard time. I think that,

you know, the joy that Annabella brought to my life and still does now is that thing that has got me through. But just going through those first few months of sort of learning how to be a mum learning how to look after Annabella and wanting to provide for her it was difficult you know doing that whilst sort of planning dad's funeral and and sort of going through all of that is a time that I sort of wouldn't want anyone to have to go through but I'm just so grateful that Annabella came about at that time because I feel like you know that's almost sort of dad's way of saying right I'm I'm off now but here's your little girl and she'll look after you which she really has done and so now's your opportunity to raise awareness and do something and you're really putting yourself out there, how fit are you and how good a cyclist are you?

So I am not fit. I haven't actually done any exercise since becoming pregnant with Annabella. I used to love fitness. It was a real kind of way of me sort of getting away and it was really good for my headspace and I still love it. But since being pregnant and since having Annabella, obviously so much has happened and it's sort of been so far in the back of my mind and I still love it. But since being pregnant and since having Annabella, obviously, so much has happened. And it's sort of been so far in the back of my mind in terms of it being a priority. And that's actually been quite a nice thing about this training for my challenge is that I've had to prioritise myself and I've had to prioritise exercising, which has been really

great, actually. It's been really sort of healthy I think for me to just have that sort of headspace and to be able to think about everything and almost have this time to sort of digest everything that's happened over the last year so I'm getting there with my fitness in terms of cycling I had never cycled on the road before learning to do this a few weeks ago, which sounds crazy. I've cycled, obviously, on my exercise bike. It does. It does. It sounds absolutely bananas. You are, your fiancé is ex-England cricketer Stuart Broad. You know, we know that elite athletes get into the headspace.

What advice has he given you? He has told me to take everything in small chunks he's literally saying take this hour by hour don't think about day five of hull think literally about each hour stay positive and uh yeah he's been really encouraging well you've got the entire team at woman's hour backing you thank you so much you are going to do this and it's going to be an incredible achievement you're going to raise a and it's going to be an incredible achievement. You're going to raise a lot of money for a very good cause and I'm very proud of you. Also, make sure you've got padded lycra. Yes, yes, I'm on to that, definitely. Thank you so much.

And well done on the new gig as well, Molly. Oh, thank you. Oh my goodness, we are so excited. We can't wait. So yeah, that starts in july wonderful thank you so much molly and good luck and you can find out more by visiting bbc.co.uk slash red nose day um molly king what a ledge doing that um lots of you getting in touch i'm sorry i haven't managed to mention all the women in your lives but all of you can just pick up the phone and send that woman a message and tell her how great she is. That's it from me. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm David Yelland. And I'm Simon Lewis. We're the hosts of Radio 4's When It Hits The Fan, the podcast which looks at how big names and big companies manage their PR.

But what about your own personal PR? How do you better manage your own reputation at work? We're here to help. With a series of special bonus episodes, we'll bring a little wisdom and share some tips to hopefully make you better at that job. Quick Wins is a series of short and snappy episodes with lots of advice aimed at improving your working life. If that sounds useful, then please listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. Just search for When It Hits The Fan.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.