Woman's Hour - Women's Football, Nicola Benedetti

Episode Date: June 4, 2019

We look ahead to the Women’s Football World Cup in France with former England, Chelsea and West Ham player Claire Rafferty and BBC Women’s Sports Reporter, Jo Currie. Who are the teams and players we should be looking out for? We also discuss the history of women’s football in the UK and around the world with Gemma Clarke, author of author of Soccer Women and Natasha Rolt who’s Schools Heritage Officer for Luton Town FC Community Trust. What progress has been made since the FA banned women’s matches in 1921 – and how are coverage and attitudes changing?The Fawcett Society will be joining protests in Trafalgar Square today. Donald Trump is making his state visit to the UK. Those women protesting are concerned about his record on women’s rights and don’t want the UK government to honour him. But not all women agree with them – many are concerned about respecting the special relationship. We hear the arguments for protesting and whether it is the best way of prioritising women’s rights. We discuss with Sam Smethers, CEO of the Fawcett Society and Assistant Comment Editor at the Daily Telegraph, Madeline Grant.Violinist Nicola Benedetti was placed 18th on the Woman’s Hour Power List 2018. Chosen for being “a fabulous spokesperson who’s devoted so much time and energy to supporting music education for all” in the past 12 months she has worked with over 2,000 students and 500 teachers, she’s also launched her own online series of educational videos and received a CBE. Jane talks to her about her achievements and her new album Nicola Benedetti and Wynton Marsalis’ Violin Concerto & Fiddle Dance Suite.Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Jane ThurlowInterviewed guest: Nicola Benedetti Interviewed guest: Claire Rafferty Interviewed guest: Gemma Clarke Interviewed guest: Natasha Rolt Interviewed guest: Sam Smethers Interviewed guest: Madeline Grant

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It is Tuesday, June 4th, 2019. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. And with us today, the fantastic violinist Nicola Benedetti, one of those people that radiates enthusiasm. She's with us today. We also talk about the Women's FIFA World Cup,

which kicks off, we have to say kicks off in relation to football, on Friday when the hosts France play South Korea. Then it's the big one for us, Scotland against England on Sunday. This could be, what it is, a seminal moment in women's football. We'll look ahead to that tournament on the podcast today. But we start with the state visit of President Donald Trump and the protests due in Trafalgar Square later on today. But we start with the state visit of President Donald Trump and the protest due in Trafalgar Square later on today. The Fawcett Society, the gender equality organisation, are going to be there. Women are protesting, they say, because they're concerned about President Trump's record on women's rights and they really don't want the UK government to honour this man.

Not everybody agrees, of course, including one of our guests, Madeleine Grant, Assistant Comment Editor at The Telegraph. She joined me and Sam Smethers, CEO of the Fawcett Society. Here's Sam on why she believes the protest was essential. We're going to be there because, to be honest, to be on the right side of history, I think it's the only place to be. This is a misogynist. He's bragged about assaulting women. You know, he's got a terrible track record, not only on women's rights, but on other rights and minority groups, you know, the treatment of migrants at the Mexican border, for example. And we're now seeing women's reproductive rights being rolled back across the United States. This is somebody we need to stand up against. And if we

don't do it, we're seeing the sweep of populism and extreme right-wing politics across the globe. And it's really fundamental, really, that we take this stand today. Madeleine, why is she wrong? Well, I think that the nature of the visit is a very important one. I could understand more the protests if Trump were visiting in a kind of personal capacity, but he's not. It's a state visit. And therefore, he's not just representing himself and his own personal views, but he's representing the office of president and his whole country. And he's also here to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the D-Day landings when thousands of British and American troops died side by side.

I think that any protesting Trump on this occasion is likely to really detract from the solemnity of that occasion. And not least because we're likely to have actual veterans of these wars witnessing the protests and so on. What are they going to feel? And what are ordinary Americans going to feel when they see these protests, other than a slight on their country and the office of president? What about that then, Sam?

Because this is a very, very solemn commemoration, rightly, of the 75th anniversary of D-Day. It probably will be the last chance, actually, for us to do it involving veterans of that hideous, for many, experience. And I have no problem at all with that. Well, hasn't Madeleine got a point? This is the wrong time for a protest that some will see as a little bit of an indulgence, quite honestly. But I think his politics actually dishonours those veterans. If you think about what they fought against, they fought against right-wing extremism, they fought against fascism.

He is aligning himself with some of those views. That's essentially what he is representing. And we ought to be really acknowledging that and recognising that. But absolutely no objection to us working with the US administration, no objection at all about honouring those D-Day landings and the 75th anniversary. But I think we have to really confront what he represents in this country and also what he represents around the world and the influence he's having. I wonder, actually, whether the protests today,

and we don't know, of course, how big they're going to be, will get much coverage in the States, or whether any of President Trump's supporters will care. If you look at the front page of The Times today, I suspect this is the sort of image that is going to be widely broadcast and shown across the United States. And it's Donald Trump and the Queen in what looks like a very animated conversation last night at the state banquet. They're going to see that and they're going to think, brilliant job done. What a lovely photograph. Exactly. And that's exactly why we're opposing it. And he's being given a gift by the UK government,

which he will use to prop up his re-election campaign. And we shouldn't have done that. He's visiting for D-Day. It's not some propaganda ploy to try and promote Trump or his ideology. He's literally there to commemorate thousands of soldiers who died fighting for the liberation of Europe. And I must say, I don't know who else the Fawcett Society in particular tends to protest against, but there is a recurring pattern amongst progressives in this country of tending to go after the low-hanging fruit. It's the easiest thing in the world to go after Donald Trump,

but they almost never have a word to say about committers of far worse human rights violations. You know, Xi Jinping came on a state visit last year or possibly the year before that. That was the Chinese president. Yes, sorry, the Chinese president. They currently have half a million women in internment camps, Muslim women in China. Where were the protests for Xi Jinping? Well, let's ask. Where were the protests for Erdogan?

Did the Fawcett Society organise anything? We didn't for those particular visits. And we're not usually focused on international politics, but we're focusing on Donald Trump because of the influence he has, particularly on UK politics, which I think is really important. And we're not usually focused on international politics but we're focusing on Donald Trump because the influence he has particularly on UK politics which I think is really important and we're part of a wider movement. All right what about the visit of the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia he has quite an impact on our foreign policy certainly what did you do about that? Well again we're a UK focused charity you know we don't tend to get involved in international politics but I think with this particular but you are doing it today yeah because

it has a particular role and influence on UK politics and that's why we're involved in it today. Well I don't know the extent to which it does. I think we have in Northern Ireland for example we have a you know in my opinion a very regressive attitude towards reproductive rights but that derives not from some kind of Trumpian ideology that's been imparted but largely because it's a very religious society still and it has these links with the past that mainland britain has lost and it's the same with the states that have chosen to implement this extremely regressive abortion bill they tend to be deeply religious states in which often for example in alabama a majority of ordinary people are anti-abortion including many many women

exactly yes go on sir well you know we, we've completely supported women in Northern Ireland. They should have access to abortion the same way as every other woman in the UK. And we stand in solidarity with women in the US who are seeing their abortion rights rolled back. And it's not about religious rights. It's about women's health and reproductive rights. Because if we don't respect those, then actually women's lives are being put at risk. We don't prevent abortion by being anti-abortion. We actually prevent women from safe access to abortion services.

No, and I completely agree. I was really merely trying to raise the point that I don't think that it's Trumpian ideology that is necessarily the driving force behind this stuff. I think often it is deeply held religious beliefs that will outlast any particular one president or politician. I agree he's a product of that. Politics is, can be, well, there are plenty of grey areas in politics, aren't there, he's a product of that. Politics can be. Well, there are plenty of grey areas in politics, aren't there, Sam? We all know that. We all know to what extent our lives are intertwined with America,

with the United States of America. We know too about the American military bases that are dotted across this country. We need to get on with the United States of America. They have been over many, many decades a great supporter of us, may well be in the future. We can't muck up this relationship, certainly not when we're leaving the European Union. Absolutely. And, you know, we're not in a strong position at the moment. No, we're not. And you're advocating that everybody turns up and is rude about their elected head of state. Well, I think we need to defend what we value and defend our values.

And if we don't do that, we're groundless. We've got nothing to stand on. You know, we have to have something that we believe in. And if we don't defend those values, then we're nowhere. So, you know, I would push back on that. I think one of the reasons why we're in such a desperate state to engage the US is because of what we're doing in relation to the European Union.

That's a whole other debate. But really, fundamentally, you know, if we don't stand up against what Trump represents, then I think we stand for nothing. He has, to put it mildly, made some divisive remarks about women. Madeleine, are you really happy that Britain is rolling out the red carpet for this individual? Yes, of course, because to me, it's not just him rolling out the carpet for Trump, the man, it's rolling out the carpet for Trump as a president, the democratically elected president of a country with an extremely important relationship to ours that we've historically stood side by side through the toughest times. And we've had shared

interests and we continue to have those shared interests. And I think it's important to demonstrate that we, the British people, value that relationship. Thank you both very much. Of course, the BBC will be following events very closely in Trafalgar Square today. You heard there from Madeleine Grant, Assistant Comment Editor at The Daily Telegraph. And we also got the view of somebody who's going to be at the protest, the CEO of the Force Society, Sam Smethers.

Thanks both at BBC Women's Hour on social media, if you'd like to take part. Later in the week on this programme, you'll be hearing from a wonderful woman that I met a week or so ago now at the Chelsea Royal Hospital. That was Helen Andrews. She is 93. She's a Bletchley Park veteran. Had a fantastic chat with her.

And you can hear from Helen Andrews on the programme later in the week. Also with us the writer Francesca Siegel. She'll be discussing spending time in hospital with premature babies. So you can hear from Francesca as well on Women's Hour later on this week. So to the FIFA Women's World Cup which begins in France this Friday. The opening match is between the hosts and South Korea and you can see that live on BBC One and hear it on BBC Radio 5 Live. And then the biggie for us really is the game on Sunday. That's the June the 9th game, Scotland against England. And there'll be full coverage of that across the BBC as well.

Let's talk to the former England, Chelsea and West Ham player, Claire Rafferty. Claire, good morning to you. Hello, good morning. And in Nice, we've got Jo Currie, who's the BBC Women's Sports Reporter. Good morning, Jo. Good morning. In New York, Gemma Clark, author of Soccer Women, The Icons, Rebels, Stars and Trailblazers Who Transformed the Beautiful Game. Very early morning in New York.

How are you, Gemma? Very good. Thanks, Jane. And Natasha Rolt is here as well, Schools Heritage Officer for Luton Town FC Community Trust. Natasha, good to see you. You've got a really important chunk of social history to celebrate, actually, haven't you, at Luton?

So we'll talk about that a little later. First of all, Jo, set the scene for us in Nice. How are things looking? I'm very pleased to say it's actually warm and sunny out here. But what was fantastic is you can already tell there's a real atmosphere out here ahead of the first game between England and Scotland which is happening on Sunday I sat down to dinner last night at the restaurant

and even my placemat was an advertisement for the World Cup so yeah it's a few days away at the moment but excitement is definitely getting there Now excitement building which is brilliant coverage is building up here as well there there's a as an awareness an increasing awareness of this event for people who don't know this is not the first fifa women's world cup uh there was one four years ago and in fact how many have there been so the first official women's world cup was actually in 1991 although there were a few test events and other events before that,

which were seen as World Cups. But the first one was officially 1991, although that was actually referred to as the M&M's Cup. I won't go into the history of it, but let's just say FIFA didn't always treat the Women's World Cup as it should have done. And since then, we've had World Cups every four years. And every year or every event,

it's got bigger and bigger and bigger. And this event is going to be the biggest women's sport event, not just in terms of is going to be the biggest women's sport event not just in terms of football world cups but women's sport event ever this planet has ever seen in terms of what sponsorship potential viewers the lot in terms of everything you can go back four years ago to the world cup in canada and claire played in this world cup you know all of those matches were played on artificial pitches which would never happen in a men's World Cup. This time around, they're all going to be on grass.

We've got VAR being used. Don't ask me to explain VAR because we'll be here for quite a while. Well, essentially it means video... Oh, God, now you've got me. Video-assisted... That's it. Replay, yeah. Just for the benefit of our listeners who are not totally up to speed with it.

Yeah, go on. But the fact that that's going to be included is the fact that the likes of Nike have released special kits just for the women's teams. Ticket sales have gone through the roof. Back in April, almost three quarters of a million tickets had been sold. The prize money has been doubled from four years ago from £30 million, from £15 million to £30 million this time around. The media coverage is going to be bigger than ever before. Just the number of British press that are flying out for the opening game is so much bigger than it was for any other women's tournament

that I've certainly covered. And on top of all of that, the football is going to be better than ever. Most of these teams now are professional, the players are better, and there are more contenders than ever before. Right. I mean, it's really important that there's so much to mention there. The prize money you did allude to, it is 7.5% of the total purse available to the men's World Cup, yes? Yeah, there's no denying if you compare it to the men's it's still relatively poor but the fact that they've doubled it, it's a start

and the winner of the tournament will get £4 million this time around and also that the FIFA are putting in money, I think it's a start and the winner of the tournaments will get 4 million this time around and also that the fifa are putting in money i think it's 20 million to compensate teams uh club teams around the world which are losing players who are coming to play in the world cup because some leagues such as america still go on actually whilst the world cup is going on and you mentioned the ticket sales that is actually so important that that when we look at um whether it's on twitter or wherever we see these images and young people increasingly probably won't see much on terrestrial telly but they'll see it on their phones

or on their laptops in their bedrooms we need to see people at these grounds you're saying there are going to be people there Absolutely, I'd expect the majority of these games, certainly the bigger ones and I believe all of England's group stage matches are all sold out and it's so important that when you see this product on television like you said or on social media

that people see that it's a real sports event it's not just a token event people want to go and see it and and that is what's going to happen and when you get more fans there you get a better atmosphere and that's just what makes the whole event that much bigger and that much better yeah and I think I did say ticket sales in the past I think tickets were given away weren't they and that does send an odd message. It's something we've always done in this country and I think to some extent it harms the game in that we've given the game away for free in this country for so long we've sort of said that you know for FA Cup finals tickets are free or only a couple of quid and to be fair it can get bums on seats which is brilliant but at the same time you're saying it's not worth your money.

This time around, you know, tickets, there's a whole range of packages and prices you could pay for tickets, but they're not being given away for free. And I think that is important because it sends the message that this is a real sport and it needs to be taken seriously. Claire, you played in 2015. This is in Canada. We've already heard about the pitches.

Were they really dodgy to play on? Was it tough? at the time um in the build-up you know we were aware that that was going to be a situation um we did fight it and I know a lot of nations you know um had a had a few pushbacks um for me personally having had three um ACL ruptures playing on artificial turf is not ideal yeah so yeah anterior cruciate ligament, which is in the knee, which kind of stops you falling over, basically. So, yeah, playing on them pitches was actually a huge risk for myself and for every single one of them women who played in that World Cup because of the dangers on the body.

But, yeah, I mean, we've seen, you know, in the four years since that tournament an incredible increase in exposure, in investment. And I'm so excited to watch England on Sunday. Yeah. Let's talk about that. England are one of the favourites. They just lost, actually, in their most recent warm-up game to New Zealand, didn't they?

Was that really unexpected? Or maybe a bit of a wake-up call? What do you think? There's been a lot of rotation in the squad but if I remember correctly actually, we lost to Canada I think in our last friendly before the World Cup. So I mean, on paper people couldn't um and ah about it but

ultimately it's about the games in the World Cup and that first game is a massive one against Scotland. And I think we'll be the toughest of the group. You know what happens on social media when women's matches are shown? It's always trending. That's another huge amount of progress. It's talked about.

Sometimes you don't want to see what some people are saying about the football. I guess when you were playing, you didn't see it because you were far too pretty. I mean, when you're playing, obviously, you're in the bubble, aren't you? Yeah, but what do you think about that? Because I suppose I'm already keen for that match on Sunday to be a good game, because if it isn't, those people in their tracksuit bottoms will be making their presence felt, won't they,

and saying all those horrible things. I think, you know, ultimately, there needs to be a performance from the girls, but there's any excuse from the trolls, so to speak, on social media who like to have their opinion. Firstly, I'd be happy that they're actually watching it, but I'd like to see them give an opinion that is based on the performance rather than anything else that's kind of irrelevant.

But do you think there will be... Yeah, yeah. They're waiting to pounce, aren't they? Because that's what those people do. Yeah, I mean, you see under any kind of media, publicised on any kind of social media or in any kind of paper, there's always a negative element. I'd like to think that's decreasing.

But, you know, we do still see it. And, I mean, I see it on a daily basis. I know a lot of the girls do. But, you know, you do still see it. And, I mean, I see it on a daily basis. I know a lot of the girls do. But, you know, you have to have a thick skin. I think when you're out in the public eye like that, and the game is growing as much as it is, you know, the bad comes with the good. So we'd like to see it eradicated.

But I don't think you're going to fully eliminate people who are empowered by sitting behind their computer. Yeah, and waiting for their mum to bring up their tea. I always say that, but it's true. I think some of them do have their mums bring up their tea on a train. And let's bring in Gemma, because Gemma, you are someone who's written a bit about the social history of women's football. And we can talk in a rather blasé way about wonderful sponsorship and fantastic pitches and packed

out crowds. Do many people actually realise how difficult it was for women to get this far in terms of playing football? I think women do because we understand that it's been difficult for us to do pretty much anything. Football is really a reflection of what's going on in a particular place and political landscape. And for women, you know, women's football has really been a struggle to play, to have any kind of agency and to be taken seriously as athletes. And that can be seen throughout history. I think every moment that women's football has had, you know, there's been a kind of a backlash afterwards or a kind of attempt to keep women back and to dampen enthusiasm for the sport. What happened then back in the 1920s?

In the 1920s, there was a team called the Dick Kerr's Ladies who played several exhibition games ostensibly to raise money for the war effort during the First World War. They were working in a munitions factory while the men were at war and they became so popular. They were getting crowds of around 50,000 and upwards and the football association, the men's football association, were panicked by seeing women doing so well and doing so well at football and began enlisting doctors to say that women shouldn't play football. And they banned all women from playing football on association grounds. And that lasted for about 50 years.

And to be banned from association grounds effectively meant, well, the proper pitches were totally closed to them. There was no hope of women playing in any kind of formal setting. Absolutely. yeah. I mean, it was a very concerted effort to keep women's football at amateur status and ensure that there weren't crowds watching them play. But it also meant, didn't it, that when I grew up, for example, in the 70s, 60s and 70s, girls didn't play football. They didn't play in the schools. They didn't play in the parks. Well, they did, actually. there was actually an unofficial World Cup in 1971 and an England team participated in that so they were playing at amateur level and

they were playing on parks but you just didn't see it the way you see it now where there are you know there is a league and there is something to aspire to and and there are women's teams finally that that um that play regularly and play in a league. Natasha tell us what you discovered about what had happened at Luton Town you you represented the club's community trust don't you? I do yes um we've been running a school's heritage project for the past year um and we we became aware of a black and white photograph that was published by the Luton News Archive. It was a photograph of two female football teams running out of a tunnel at Kenworth Road.

For anyone who hasn't been to Kenworth Road, it is the football stadium of Luton Town and has been so since 1905. It's quite distinctive. There's a sloped tunnel and the photograph also shows the wooden main stand. So we knew instantly it was Kenworth Road. Because it hasn't changed that much.

Exactly. Yeah, go on. And we were aware of the ban as well that was spoken about previously between 1921 and 1971 for women's football on the FA-affiliated member grounds. And we looked at this photograph and we thought that it was within this timeframe. So we were just really curious and decided to investigate further and try and find the story behind the photograph. And what did you find out about it? Well, we spoke to the Marks and Spencer archive because we managed to uncover a newspaper advert

that told us there was a game on the 19th of April 1935 between Marks & Spencer and Woolworths. Large match. And speaking to the Marks & Spencer archive, apparently these fixtures were fairly common across the country and they gave us the example of a match between the two stores in Hastings in 1935 and a match in Staines in 1934. OK, so this just shows you actually that contrary to what I might have thought, there were matches between teams of women and presumably people went along and had a look?

This is right, yes. The distinction with the game at Kenworth Road is that Kenworth Road and Luton Town were an FA affiliated member club. So whereas some of the examples that we found from Hastings and Staines were played on grounds that weren't FA affiliated member clubs the Luton match was. We found we spoke to members of the public as well and we found a newspaper advert which told us that there were thousands of supporters there so even during this supposed ban on ladies' football, it was happening. We found that actually there was this match

and that women were going against the regulations put in place by men at the FA. There was a big demand then. Yeah, clearly there was a demand, yeah. And if anybody would like to see images, we've got those images actually now on the Women's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Gemma, you write in your book about some of the icons of women's football.

Who would you point to, names that we may not know? Names that we may not know. Tiffany Milbrett is someone who was a fantastic player for the USA. She only was recently, last last year inducted into the Hall of Fame here, even though she was the top scorer in 1999. Elsewhere around the world, there's a player in Pakistan called Hajra Khan, who's done incredible things for women's football in Pakistan. There are just some incredible stories once you start, you know, looking into it. There have been women all over the world and incredible players who've really furthered not just the game, but the cause of women in their region.

You say yourself in your book that when you started off reporting on women's football, you would, and you now acknowledge it was a mistake, you would compare female players to male and say, well, X is a bit like Wayne Rooney or Beckham or whoever it might be. And you don't, well, you don't have to do that anymore, do you? No. And I think that was a sign of the times. And, you know, I grew up in that world too, where I longed to play football and I didn't see anyone, any women's teams. And my whole frame of reference was the men's game. And I think that is changing, as Jo said. I think that that is really opening up and there's a whole generation of female players who now, like Claire, are becoming icons

and the England team now are just inspiring young girls around the country. Let's talk to Jo in Nice ahead of that game then on Sunday. Jo, wouldn't it be something if a home nation were to win the Women's World Cup? It would do a huge amount for the women's game. We saw how excited the country got last summer when the men's team got all the way to the semifinals. The women got to the semifinals in 2015. They fell just short in a very painful semifinal

that I won't make Claire relive. I wasn't about to ask her, but carry on. But if England's women or Scotland's women can win the World Cup this time around, it would bring in so much more sponsorship, the participation figures would go through the roof. And I actually asked Baroness Sue Campbell, who's the director of the FA, a month or so ago,

I said, if England actually win this World Cup, are you ready for what comes next? And she said, we think so, we've got a plan in place. So they think they've got the bits of the puzzle there, but obviously you need the team to do the business. Yeah, well, I was going to say, this is giving me goosebumps. Maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. Claire, what would you say about that? Yeah, I've got the bits of the puzzle there, but obviously you need the team to do the business. Yeah, well, I was going to say, this is giving me goosebumps. Maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. Claire, what would you say about that?

Yeah, I've got a massive goosebumps here. I mean, it's just so nice to kind of see, you know, the hard work that all the women have done over the years, you know, the introduction of essential contracts from Hope Powell and then the journey from the 2011 World Cup when it got to the quarterfinal and then 2015 getting to the semi-final. Well, we know what you call it.

And now, I mean, the natural progression now, you know, the pressure is on for England to reach finals and I really do think they have the quality and the depth of talent to do that. And, I mean, it will be absolutely monumental if they manage to win or even kind of progress semifinal beyond. I think the buzz is already there, but I think I remember feeling it in Canada.

You know, as soon as we got out of the group stages, people started talking about us. Before, we weren't really kind of in the picture. Then all of a sudden, we beat Norway and Lucy Bronze scored a fantastic strike, which kind of put us through. And from then, even though the time zones, we were kind of out of sorts because of it,

we still were... I remember there was one occasion, I can't remember what paper it was, but it had an outlay of a letter that the children had to send to their schools so that they can miss school the next day because the games were so late. They wanted to watch it, yeah.

So the potential was there then. And I think it's... yeah, it's exciting. I think it's, even if they don't even progress, I think that the kind of change in the landscape has really propelled the game. Even the time zone is in our favour because if England get to the final, or Scotland, it will be played at a time the whole nation can sit down

with a pizza and watch it. Or with a healthy snack, of course. It's coming home, I don't want to do it. Wouldn't it be absolutely brilliant if football did come home, but not in the company of men, Jo? You must have had that thought as well. Well, it all

goes back to what you were saying about social media and trolls. You can have the most incredible women's football match and yet trolls will always find something to talk about but I think if they win the World Cup it just shuts everybody up from that respect but the fact that they could do it this summer potentially and last year the men I say only got to the semi-finals that was obviously a fantastic result as well yeah I think four years ago and Claire can talk about this, heading into that tournament, people were talking about

could England even get out of the group stage because they hadn't always had a great record at World Cups. This time around, people are really saying England are one of the contenders, the ranked third in the world. They recently won a tournament in the US which involved playing the US. They've never been in such a good position. And I have to say Scotland as well. The players they've got now, so many of them are professional in the Women's Super League in

England, some of them play abroad in America and so forth. You know, women's football in Britain, in the UK has never been in such a good place. And our professional teams have never had such a good opportunity to go on and lift a major trophy. You mentioned the central contracts, Claire. Well, we can't dodge the fact that money is of huge significance in football. We know that male players, some of them, are pocketing hundreds of thousands of pounds a week. And it can see, I mean, look at the people who turned up, rightly, I would say, on the streets of Liverpool on Sunday to celebrate.

It takes up so much space in our national life. They earn so much money. What do you think about all that? I mean, I think football has such an emotional connection with this country. And with the increasing kind of professionalism and the exposure, I mean, there's a real argument about, you argument about getting bums on seats and producing something that is sustainable, we don't want

it to grow too fast and it kind of crash and burn so there are natural steps we need to see more attendances in this country, we need to see the investment which we have done this year but it needs to not just be kind of a one off, it needs to be continuous. Sure, but when you were playing just be kind of a one-off. It needs to be continuous.

Sure, but when you were playing, very briefly, did the money not niggle you? Well, if it hadn't been banned in 1920, I would be a millionaire, I think, by now. You'd be more than a millionaire, love. You'd be absolutely exactly gone. Ultimately, there's a huge disparity in it and it needs to improve,

but it needs to be sustainable as well. Okay, well, I've really enjoyed celebrating this and it is a celebration because this has the potential to be one of the sporting highlights of many a summer so Claire I don't know whether from your point of view you will enjoy it but because there'll be a part of you thinking back won't there but don't let it happen. I'm going with it I'm going with the flow. All right thank you very much and thanks too to Gemma Clark in New York thank you for getting up so early and to Joe Curry in Nice who's going to be watching that game between England and

Scotland on Sunday. And to Natasha Rolt from Luton Town FC. Thank you very much for coming in, Natasha. And those images of that game between Woolies and Marks and Sparks back in the 1930s, you can see them on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour.

Now, the Scottish violinist is with us at Nicola Benedetti. She was on the Woman's Hour. Now, the Scottish violinist is with us, Nicola Benedetti. She was on the Women's Hour Music Power List 2018, which, as you'll remember, was celebrating women in music. And Nicola made it partly because, and here's a great quote about her, she has been a fabulous spokesperson who's devoted so much time and energy to supporting music education for everybody. And she's here. Good morning to you. How are you?

Good morning. Well, thank you. In the past 12 months, it says here, Nicola, that you have worked with over 2,000 students and 500 teachers. If that's what it says, it must be true. It must be true. I don't count. And you've now got the CBE. Yes.

Congratulations. Thank you very much. That's richly deserved. Now, your new album is an intriguing collaboration with Wynton Marsalis. Now, the jazz musician, how did all that start? Where did you meet him? What happened? A long time ago, so I've been a fan of his music forever and a day and actually attended a performance of a symphonic work

that he wrote for full symphony orchestra and jazz bands. So there's like, I don't know, 100 plus musicians on stage. It's called The Swing Symphony and I attended that with several people I work with and other musicians. And we all agreed it was a unique experience and feeling within a concert hall to have music that is so complex and substantive, but is so uplifting and euphoric. It's something that very few composers are kind of capturing that type of uplift within a kind of classical format. So it made such a massive impact on me. And I then set about chasing him down to write a violin concerto, which took about two years, but we eventually got him to agree in writing to write the piece because he's a very very busy person you sound quite a persistent person it took you that long yes exactly no we

were determined I knew he wanted to do it was just a case of him trying to kind of find the time so we had five commissioning orchestras from all over the world and I've subsequently performed it I've lost count of how many times a huge number of times that this is the violin concerto. And then we recorded it with Philadelphia Orchestra last year. And it's just one of those pieces that leaves people on their feet. I mean, it's just so colourful and so exciting and very popular with audiences, which is great for a new work. It's often not the case. Well, you said, okay, you've set that up brilliantly. Let's hear a short clip. This is Hootenanny. Thank you. No, you were right.

That is exhilarating. I mean, when you wasted, I was going to say wasted, when you spent so much, did say wasted, you spent so much time pursuing him, was it worth it? Oh, it's been a life-changing experience. Has it? Okay. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Why life-changing? Because that sounds very dramatic.

Well, because it was a huge project. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. Why life changing? Because that sounds very dramatic. Well, because it was a huge project. It took up enormous amounts of time. And to have a piece written for you, that's happened to me three times in the past with James McMillan, John Taffiner and now Wynton. And it's that close proximity to someone that is creating something in a way that is very different to what we do day in, day out. As musicians that are trying to interpret the work of somebody else. And often people who are no longer alive and from very different times and places. It's a significant experience. It's not easier. Is it better? It's not better and it's not easier. It's just very, very different.

And also this was so far outside of my comfort zone and outside of my experience. There was so much in how I was required to play, to make sound, to make colours on the instruments, to express myself that was unusual and a challenge. And yeah, I feel like I was, I am a different musician because of the experience of playing this concerto. You are absolutely passionate about education and about talking to quite young children, actually, about classical music.

Have you got a kind of gateway drug piece that you play them to lure in even the most reluctant people? No, I certainly don't have one. And I think what I try to pass on is the extent of the classical repertoire. It's so vast and so varied. And some young people, I mean, people always tell me, you must play something fast and exciting for them. Well, I would have said that to be fair.

Yeah, I mean, people really do think that. But I've done, I've experienced being in front of groups of children hundreds of times now. And actually, a lot of the time, the most moving, intimate, sweet, sad song is the thing that they become transfixed by that. And I've never had an experience of playing some classical music for young people that they're not engaged. I've literally never had that experience in my life. So I just try to let them understand how vast the repertoire is and give them a taste of that variety so that they can then

choose and kind of curate for themselves what excites them. And these would not necessarily be children who would routinely be exposed to any form of classical music or have music lessons outside school. Yeah, I try to keep my experience through educating in music very non-discriminate. So playing for children who are not musicians at all and may never play an instrument, also working with large groups of kids that do it as a hobby, maybe don't have the ideal circumstance in terms of either amount or style of teaching. But equally to teach masterclasses at the Royal College or Royal Academy, you know, I try to keep it as broad as possible. And now with my charity that is not set up yet, but we're nearly there, i will be trying to target all of those different groups

at once because one of the things i'm most passionate about is creating a better synergy and lineage between those that are doing music as a hobby and their exposure to an instrument is on a more kind of amateur level um they they should be connected to the professional world so we're not living in all of these very separate categories. But how would it benefit them if they were? Oh, I mean, those who have dedicated their life to playing have such power and energy purely with their quality. If you have spent thousands of hours doing something

it has its own power through the quality of your playing so if that can have a better communication to those who are experiencing music not necessarily as a vocation or as a profession but in order to have an enriched education in order to have an enriched experience as you're going through your formative years. The best people often to share that kind of excitement and love and that potency of the music are those really serious about their instrument. But equally, I'm tying my connections to those that have dedicated themselves to music education. So people who have perfected their teaching techniques for decades. And that's, I would say,

probably where my biggest challenge, but also passion lies into trying to support them to shine a light on what great teachers do achieve and allow their discoveries and their voices to be shared with mass groups of other teachers

who are just not exposed to the right kind of information. In terms of spreading the word about the value of music education, are people receptive or are people saying, actually, we don't have the budget for this kind of thing anymore? Well, I think one of our challenges for today is to live in bubbles where you are preaching to the crowd all the time. So you can I could constantly surround myself with people that are like, yes, absolutely. I agree with you. This is 100 percent what we want to get behind. My aim is to get outside of that comfort zone and make sure that I'm able to decipher and and summarize why music is important to those who may naturally be resistant but you've never had when was the last day in your life without music that hasn't that hasn't

been worn has there no i mean no but but i i'm the one that like if if i'm in a place i would i quite like some silence sometimes but i but i actually you know, I value music so much. I'm not someone who needs it kind of. I like to pay attention to it when it's on. Oh, really? So you wouldn't? That's really interesting. So you wouldn't just have it as background? For you, it can't be that? Often it's, there's so much music in my mind anyway, that I don't need it. No. And do you write your own stuff? I certainly do not.

Do you write? Do not. No, why not? No, I just, I like, I am faced with scores from the greatest composers that ever lived on a daily basis. For me to think about like adding anything to that. No, I just, no, it's not for me. Violinist Nicola Benedetti, who at the moment officially doesn't write music, but I'm no detective, but I detected something there. I think she's pondering it. You never know. Watch this space.

Now, to your emails about President Trump's visit. Sabina, I'm no fan of Trump, but I feel that Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states oppress women and violate human rights. They get all the pomp and circumstance. Where were the protests then? From Nigel, Trump's visit means it will become his D-Day event and it will divert attention, I think, from the real meaning of the occasion. And Chris, a friend, made the best suggestion yesterday that the best protest would be if the streets were completely empty and everybody turned

their backs on Donald Trump. Yeah, well, I think there were quite a few images during the rounds on social media yesterday of the not especially busy streets of central London around Buckingham Palace when he was going in and out of the palace. So I don't, yeah, it's kind of happened to a degree already, but we'll see. We'll see how many people turn up at the protest today. From Sylvie, thank you to Madeleine for that bit of sense on Women's Hour right now. It's the first time, says Sylvie, I've heard anything rational for what seems an age. The continuous extremism is exhausting. And from Michael, a huge point, despite the arguments for

and against is that Trump is taking hard fought women's rights away. China has never had them Vanessa, I would like to add to the discussion on whether or not it's wise to demonstrate against the state visit of the current American president. Number one, no one mentioned we were not obliged to offer a state visit. His is only the third an American president has been granted. Two, Mr Trump could have attended the D-Day landing remembrances anyway, state visit or not. It would have been interesting to speculate whether or not he'd have turned up. From Paul, there was a suggestion in your conversation that any protest would be an insult to the brave people who died on D-Day. The men and women who died on D-Day died to protect the very freedom to protest, for freedom of expression,

and no one should ever try to stifle the right to protest peacefully in our country. To try to stop peaceful protest is the beginning of a slippery slope towards fascism, the ideology that D-Day, thankfully, brought to an end. From Sylvia, I'm almost 73, so my father served as a regular soldier in World War II. The Americans flew him out of Yunnan province in China. He'd been on a special mission fighting the Japanese alongside the Chinese guerrilla army. He returned to the UK and was in the 5th Battalion, Signal Section of the 6th Parachute Brigade. He helped to put the vital landline across Pegasus Bridge on D-Day.

I went to Normandy for the 70th anniversary and met American families like mine. My father died when I was nine. Both countries have cemeteries filled with men who fought for us. We can speak freely, protest against injustice because of the people of our two nations sacrificing so much. President Trump stands for the people of the nation who gave their lives for that to happen. On to the subject of football.

Susan, brilliant you're discussing this. BBC and other sports reporters need to be educated to qualify when it's a men's team as well as when the women are playing and not assume if there's no qualifying possessive adjective that the men are playing. This will show true equality. I listen and I wait in hope.

Well, actually, Susan, I know what you mean, but increasingly I am hearing it. I think Five Live have done that, hearing it a lot on Five Live. They'll refer to men's football or men's cricket and then women's cricket, women's football or men's cricket and then women's cricket, women's football. So I do hear that increasingly. From Mark, I enjoyed the item and it's exciting to be at the eve of the World Cup. Here we go. But it does seem odd still to

be hearing about women's football when we never refer to women's Wimbledon or the women's Olympics or the women's Commonwealth Games. From Lindsay, please don't call the women professional footballers girls. You would never hear footballers who are male being called boys. Well, you hear that all the time. They're always referred to as boys or lads, sometimes by each other. And I still go out for a drink with the girls on Friday night, so, and believe me, none of us are girls. From Jennifer,

I wonder if it might have been prudent to include a Scot in your conversation. Scotland is an afterthought in this conversation. For your information, I'm not Scottish. Yes, you make a good point. From Jill, I'm not hugely into football, but I am excited that women's football is getting a much higher profile. While I know that your contributors this morning

tried really hard to keep remembering that Scotland are playing too, it might have been more helpful to have included somebody on your panel for whom saying we would have referred to the Scottish team rather than all those for whom we refers only to the England team. I know Jane did refer to the home nations, but this was picked up in the responses

with reference only to England. Well, once again, my apologies. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it happens to be a Scot who's compiled the emails for the Woman's Out podcast today. Just a coincidence. From Angus, you know what's coming. Angus says, England representatives, but no Scots. Jane's from Liverpool, plus two other English voices discussing World Cup and no Scots. Typical, says Angus.

I notice he places me in Liverpool as though that isn't actually in England. I guess actually there are many people in Liverpool who would argue that actually Liverpool was an Irish city and not English at all. But so I take your point. And from Nicola, wonderful to hear the item. But please, are you an English programme or a British one? Well, as I say, these emails compiled by an entirely sitting on the fence, reasonable Scottish colleague of ours. I won't name her. She's very modest and wouldn't want to be dragged into this. Thanks to everybody who sent us even their complaints today. We welcome all your contact.

You know that. Keep your thoughts coming at BBC Women's Out on social media or email us on any subject you like via the website. Jenny's here tomorrow and there'll be much to look forward to then, I'm sure. I'll be listening quietly at home. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con,

Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.