Woman's Hour - Women's Football World Cup, Black Beauty, Women in the city, Italian Lifeguard

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

In their second game of the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup, England’s Lionesses face Denmark. Woman’s Hour will be following the game live, bringing you updates and analysis from our special guests. Baller FC was started by a group of friends who were tired of trying to find a pub to watch women’s football matches, only to find that the game wasn’t playing, or the atmosphere was unwelcoming. Their women’s football watching parties now attract crowds of fans queueing out the doors of their venues. We drop in to their Haggerston viewing party to hear the fan’s reactions to the game. Krupa is also joined by former Lioness Claire Rafferty and CEO of Lewes Football Club, Maggie Murphy at half-time to give their thoughts on the Lionesses’ performance so far. Was Dame Alison Rose held to a higher standard because she’s a woman? That’s the question being asked in an article in today’s Guardian after the NatWest chief executive resigned earlier this week. The boss of NatWest subsidiary Coutts also resigned – but the Chair of the bank says he will stay. So what’s it like being a woman in the city? Are you held to different standards than the men? Krupa hears from the economist Vicky Pryce and former corporate banker Heather Melville.Anna Sewell wrote just one book, published in 1877, which went on to become one of the bestselling novels of all time. Its full title:  Black Beauty: His Grooms and Companions. The Autobiography of a Horse Translated from the Original Equine. Despite suffering ill health throughout her life and dying just five months after the book was published, Anna Sewell managed to rouse the conscience of Victorian Britain and make her mark upon the world.  Dr Celia Brayfield, a Senior Lecturer in Creative Writing at Bath Spa university, has now written a book about Anna Sewell, Writing Black Beauty: Anna Sewell and the story of Animal Rights. She joins Krupa to discuss. How was your first day at work? Did you make a lasting impression? Well a 19 year old from Pontinia, Italy started her new job as a lifeguard and on her first day, she made a triple rescue, saving 5 lives...and all this before her essential equipment had arrived! Noemi Marangon joins Krupa live from Bufalara Beach to tell her story.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Hanna Ward Studio Director: Tim Heffer

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, very good to have you with us on the morning of the big game. And the game I'm talking about is England versus Denmark at the Women's Football World Cup taking place in Australia. But never mind Sydney, we're taking you to a watching party at a pub in East London. Kick-off was at 9.30, so we are partway through that action and we'll have near real-time commentary here on Woman's Hour with the former Lioness Claire Rafferty and Maggie Murphy, CEO of the Lewis Football Club. We are also going to introduce you to a 19 year old lifeguard in Italy who saved five people on her

first day of work. Incredible. We want to hear about your first days of work, triumphant or not. On my first day at a magazine age 19, I was so suited up and sweltering in the heat. Add to that all those nerves that I fainted. They then packed me off in a cab and sent me to hospital and thereafter I signed my Christmas cards from the girl who fainted. Whatever your story about your first day in a job I would love to hear it. You can text the program the number is 84844. Catch us over on Twitter and Instagram at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website and you can send us a WhatsApp message or audio note using the number 03700 100 444. Terms and conditions can be found over on our website. And this week saw the NatWest boss Dame Alison Rose resign hours after admitting that she had

made a mistake in speaking about Nigel Farage's relationship with the bank to the BBC. In the past few minutes, we've had the news that the bank's chair, Sir Howard Davies, has said that he will not resign over the matter for the sake of stability. Alison Rose spent nearly 30 years working her way up from graduate trainee to becoming the group's first female chief executive in 2019 and the first woman to run one of Britain's major banks. Some are now asking, are women in the city held to a different standard? That conversation coming up.

But first, we head to the Women's Football World Cup. England are playing Denmark in Sydney as we speak. It's a very early kickoff due to that time difference, but this has not put off those die-hard fans at the Baller FC watching party. Baller FC were set up by a group of friends who were struggling to find a pub where they could watch women's football.

They now organise viewing parties specifically for women's football fans and Jojo Ellison is one of Baller FC's co-founders joining us live from a quiet corner of the pub, or not? Well, as quiet as I can find, we've got about 200 and something women, many women. Oh, fantastic.

And a few men here. And yeah, it's incredibly popular. It's very, very loud. We've already had our first ball for four days. We've had women clearing up around the corner and then from about 8.30 this morning. So it is beyond our wildest dreams. It really is. Fantastic. It sounds super busy there. Give us a score update. Where are we 30 minutes in? So we are 1-0 up, which is amazing. We had Lauren James scoring within the first six minutes, which is incredible.

But it's so busy here. I couldn't see it oh really it's amazing yeah yeah paint us a picture when you say it's so busy you couldn't see it was that because you were busy running around trying to help people or get people seated or sort things out sort the drinks out absolutely well the bar is just open two minutes ago so we've been we've been in here since crack of dawn. We did, we had queues around the corner. It's absolutely loved. It's absolutely fantastic. It's beyond what we ever expected. I mean, when we started this a few years ago, because we couldn't find anywhere to watch it, we did know that there was an audience. We knew that people were going to come on the spot. But I don't think we quite anticipated this. And I think because we create a safe space for everybody, it doesn't matter what team you support,

or what side you back for, everybody's welcome here. What we found is we're having lots and lots of women turn up by themselves. So that is kind of beyond what we expected. We'd never have dreamt you know a few years ago that we'd be able to go to a space like this as a woman alone and be able to reach the game so much has changed and you point that out so clearly i mean why is it important to have those specific spaces to celebrate women's football i mean it's incredibly important. I think that we actually live in a bit of a bubble here. We've seen all these women coming to the Games, everybody's happy and very safe, and you kind of think,

oh well this is fine, you know, everything's good in the world. And then I just silly, stupidly, I went on the internet and I started looking at the comments that we had on the baths, but also mainly on other sporting events, you know, and had on South Athens, but also mainly on other sporting events, you know, and it was just kind of, no, the comments are still there, and there's still quite a lot of vitriol going on. So, yeah, so we've created this space, which is, you know, it's not, we're not trying to, we're much like the women's game, we're not trying to emulate the men's game, we're trying to create a uh a space that is safe for everybody but that isn't a replica of what is quite traditionally kind of aggressive

what's the round of applause for what's going on oh i don't know oh goodness no we don't want to run of course for that no it's actually quite you know we're congratulating people okay it's very much you know all very positive and loving this place and that's good to hear you talk about the queues around the corner but how many men are there you mentioned a few yeah we've got a few we've got probably i'd say six if that i was on the door this morning and it was nice yeah yeah well look we wish you all the best we are going to keep checking in with you later in the in the program i have to ask you you mentioned setting up the bar early in the morning what are you drinking at this time in the morning

well i am not drinking well actually we've raised our own ball of brew which is just 2.5 percent so we can have an early beers but i've got a I've got this is the first time, we did euros last year, I was in the door for the whole time because I was pregnant so this is my first ball of experience that I can have a drink at so I will be having a beer after I finish talking to you Enjoy, enjoy and we will check back

in with you a little later in the programme, Jojo Ellison there, thank you for joining us from that pub in the East End of London. I do have a big screen up here in front of me. And we did have a moment where I believe a player has been injured. Let me cross to Maggie Murphy, who is CEO of Lewis FC, also part of the 2023 Women's Hour Power List, celebrating women in sport. What just happened there? Well, it looks like Keira Walsh has suffered a serious injury. She's been one of our

standout players. Many people thought she was a player of the tournament at the Euros last summer. Her being stretched off is really not looking good. It's going to be a big challenge for England to fill that gap and I think this brings up this big question at the moment around female specific injuries that are popping up in the game, potentially an ACL injury. That's something where women get it at far greater rate than men. But because we don't have that much medical science that really looks at the physiology of female bodies, it means that we're decades behind in terms of the research that we need to understand the way that women carry their weight, their load, you know, wider hips and feet are slightly different to to men and but we haven't done the research to figure out what it is that we can do uh in the warm-ups in the preparation in the planning in the training to avoid these kinds of injuries and if that is an

ACL that will be you know you're looking at a year of recovery for for curables yeah yeah so worrying we'll wait and see how that unfolds and we'll come back to you a little later the programme. Maggie Murphy there with me in the studio in the Women's Hour studio throughout the programme. There to support me along the way with all those little updates because I can't keep my eye on the screen on the scripts and the massive TV we have in here. And that is what Maggie is here for with all of her expertise to help me along the way. So we'll pop back along to her a little later in the programme. NatWest has reported a sharp rise in profits less than a week after the resignation of the boss Dame Alison Rose. Their first-half profits were better than expected at £3.6 billion up from £2.6 billion a year earlier but following a week of high-profile resignations its share price has fallen by more than 6%. Dame Alison resigned as chief executive of NatWest

after admitting she had made a mistake in speaking out about Nigel Farage's relationship with Coutts, a subsidiary of NatWest, admitting what she called a serious error of judgment. Her resignation was then followed by the resignation of the boss of Coutts, Peter Flavell. But this morning, the chair of the NatWest Bank, Sir Howard Davis, has said he'll continue in his position to ensure, I quote,

the stability at the bank. And a column in Today's Guardian asked an interesting question. Was Dame Alison held to a higher standard because she's a woman? We know that the finance sector is a tough place to be a woman, still very male-dominated. But what's it actually place to be a woman, still very male-dominated. But what's it actually like to be a woman in the city? Joining me now are the economist Vicky Price, who is also author of Women vs Capitalism and Why Women Need Quotas, and Heather Melville, former corporate banker and trustee of the Chartered Institute of Management,

who is also a patron of Women and Banking. Good to have you both with us. Good morning. Good morning. Heather, let me start with you. Your reaction upon hearing Dame Alison had resigned? Very sad, actually. Very sad. And I'll tell you why. She has brought amazing transformation in the organisation across the industry. The figures speak for itself today. And for me, I think to myself, a 30-year career, surely we should also recognise all of that good stuff

and allow her to be able to be the role model that she has been for so many women to get to this place. And it's been a tough job. Yeah, and we will unpick some of the good things that you mentioned there. Vicky, your reaction, was this something she needed to do? Well, I think she was forced to do that. There was huge political pressure.

I mean, remember that the bank is still, to a considerable extent, owned by all of us. So it's in public hands, you know, minority now, but it was rescued during the financial crisis. And remember, of course, the previous head of the bank was also, you know, he left in rather bad circumstances, because the bank was incurring such huge losses and had done all sorts of dreadful things over a period in terms of looking at, you know, these customers and, and, and also in terms of the overall results and had overexpanded,

all that sort of stuff that was there, which had to be changed and the government intervened, as we know. So it has not been an easy job for anyone who's taken over. So I do sympathise with what has just been said, that Alison Rose has made a very great contribution to getting the bank back to profitability. And of course, we've had COVID, we've had the energy crisis, so it has not been an easy time. And certainly as a woman in charge, she was very high profile. And the result of that, of course, has been that every move that she made was probably, you know, attended to a lot more than would have been the case if she were a man.

I wonder what you both think about the chair, Sir Howard Davis, saying a short time ago that we believe that this was a rational decision to make at the time. However, the reaction, the political reaction to that was such that Alison and I then concluded and the board supported the view that her position was untenable yet he has said that he is going to remain for stability. Heather what do you make of that? Well just knowing how Alison is and thinking about how the 30-year career within the bank that she resigned on the basis that it was the best thing for the organisation there and then. She didn't put herself first. And that, I think, is something that often comes up with women.

We're thinking about other people. And so with that in mind, at the moment, all we should be focusing on is the bank getting back to standalone strengths, right? Because that's what everybody moans about. That's what everybody wants. And she's taken it to this far this is the best figures we've ever had since 2008 and I said and so for me I think the focus is as a shareholder myself and as an ex-employee of that organization let's focus on having some stability by removing the entire bank and the chairman that is not going to serve the purpose of us getting back to standholder strength. So you're saying this has been in the name of stability. And so Howard Davis has said the same, that he is staying in his position to ensure stability, which is interesting.

Vicky, what do you make of that? Well, I think a bit of stability right now is probably necessary. Now, the question is whether a different board can do an equally good job. And generally, there are loads of people around who possibly could. I think it's political pressure again, which is going to decide what Howard Davis does from here on. I mean, he's a very well respected person, an economist by training, if I remember correctly. So, of course, I'm slightly biased in that respect. But there is no doubt that it has put quite a lot of the spotlight on how banks are run. No doubt about it. So it's not just, whatever happens to the board, whatever happens to Coutts from here on. But it has certainly highlighted that there are issues that need to be taken into account in the future, which perhaps were not coming up as prominently as one would have expected.

So in some ways, it's good that there is more emphasis on that. On the other hand, the fact that there is a woman who has just lost her job, and since we are now in women's hour, it worries me a little bit, because what tends to happen is, particularly since there are so few women who are heads of companies in the FTSE 100, let alone in terms of the banking sector, people tend to point the finger and say, well, we put a woman in charge and look what happened. And that leaves a legacy for everyone else who may be coming up. So fewer role models. And I think that's a serious, serious issue for the diversity that everyone is looking for. Let's expand on that a bit more because, Heather,

I know that you know Alison and reading the vast amount of coverage on this, there are people, many of whom have chosen to remain anonymous, who have said, I am so sad about Alison leaving because of in part of what you said about her contribution to the sector. But the kind of long-term implications of this for women in the sector, might they be significant, Heather? Well, I think talk about role models is really important as vicky's just said there are so few role models she's the first female ceo of a uk bank that says a lot and i think about all those young girls in school and

doing their degrees and aspiring to be leaders when they see that they're going to say there is absolutely no way i'm going to do that that job and that, they're going to say there is absolutely no way I'm going to do that, that job. And that's what we have to try and change. We've got to try and change that whole piece around women can't do it. And if they do it, they're not going to stay there long enough. They, you know, they feel like they're going to be fired if they make one mistake. And I think that is the part that's really hard I think for me I I'm very sad because I do see her as a role model I do see the work that's happened across the entire banking institution um that's starting to change it's a slow change she's done a lot for female entrepreneurs

and she's done a lot for diverse um candidates as well and it's around and that's a change having been in banking for most of my career I know what that place feels like now what we have to do is take some of the great things that she has done hold on to that take it in so that we don't go backwards so we don't start replacing women in our organizations with men because that's what we did a lot of the times before because we thought women were going to go on maternity leave or women weren't interested or women simply weren't good enough and we know there is an abundance of female talent out there who are absolutely qualified to do the roles and what they need are supporters and sponsors to help and guide them on their way across every industry

it's seen that people make mistakes and i feel when people make mistakes we know with the whole ppi piece which is what has been written in the guardian millions and millions of pounds that people make mistakes and I feel when people make mistakes we know with the whole PPI piece which is what has been written in the Guardian millions and millions of pounds were actually had to be repaid to people because of the mistakes that were made then but I don't if I'm wrong I don't recall anybody losing their job over that I recall people apologizing for what's happening and making right and I think that's what we have to focus on. Earlier this month, the Treasury Committee called for evidence on the barriers faced by women in the financial services. And this was in part to launch a new inquiry into sexism in the city.

Vicky, I know that this is something you obviously have first-hand experience of. And I also know that Alison Rose, as just highlighted there by Heather, was a huge catalyst for change within the sector. These are going to be big shoes to fill. Well, they are. I mean, I started my life, my working life, working for the Royal Bank of Scotland, as it happens, and I was there for 10 years,

and there were suddenly not very many women there at that time. And sexism in the city continues. We've seen loads and loads of surveys that suggest that it hasn't gone away. Yes, more women enter. But the question is, do they then remain? And what happens is that if like there's a pipeline for getting people to stay, women to stay and then move on to higher positions, tends to sort of disappear after a few years working in the city. And that's a real, real problem. It is getting a little bit better. There's no doubt about that. And even when you look at what Alison Rose had done,

I remember giving a talk at the London School of Economics with a publication of my book, Women versus Capitalism, where Alison Rose had just been made CEO of NatWest, the bigger group, which now, of course, includes Royal Bank of Scotland. And she announced that her views on, you know, really having a more diverse group around her. And then all the names of the people who were there at the time, who were her number two, threes and so on, were men. That has now changed. So I read out the names just to show how rare it was to find somebody like Alison Rose in that position that has changed quite significantly so the the evidence suggests that if you have a woman on top or a woman making decisions then more women tend to get hired in any position going down the sort of management scale if you like. And certainly with her being at the top, it made a very big difference in terms of the way in which people moved up.

And that has been heard loud and clear. Thank you so much, Vicky Price and Heather Melville there for their thoughts on the resignation of Dame Alison Rose there from NatWest. Let's go back to the World Cup and Sydney. The Lionesses are facing Denmark in their second game of the FIFA Women's World Cup. It is halftime. It's coming up to halftime, I believe. So let's hear from our special panel. They are Claire Rafferty, former Lioness.

She retired from professional football back in 2019, having won 18 caps for England and a bronze medal in the 2015 World Cup. And Maggie Murphy, who brought us a bit of commentary earlier in the programme, CEO of Lewis Football Club and part of the 2023 Women's Hour Powerlist Celebrating Women in Sport. Welcome to you both. Claire, let's start with you. Give us an update.

How's it looking for the Lionesses so far? Hi, everyone. Yeah, really positive start from England. We saw 80% of possession in the first 20 minutes. Fantastic goal from Lauren James, six minutes in. She managed to pick the ball up on the edge of the box, find some space and time and turn the ball into the right-hand

corner. Sorry, the left-hand corner. The goalkeeper had no chance. But yeah, really positive start from England. We saw a fantastic partnership between Daly and James and Ella Toon on that left-hand side. Denmark really struggling to get any momentum. However, towards the latter stages of that first half, we did see them grow into the game with a fantastic effort from Madsen on the right-hand side of the pitch there. But we

saw an injury also last minute to Keira Walsh, which is quite worrying. And what's your reaction to that injury? What happened? Yeah, so it looked like she got her foot caught in in the grass so her studs caught um and she kind of signaled straight away that she was in pain um so it doesn't look good for Kira Walsh I know they brought the stretcher out as well to get her off the pitch but look in Laura Coombs we trust who's come on as a substitute um a very experienced player and I'm sure she'll be able to fill fill the role really well it's important to highlight though as a substitute. A very experienced player and I'm sure she'll be able to fill the role really well. It's important to highlight though, as Maggie mentioned,

the injury itself. It could have been an ACL, a knee injury that we've seen a few players experience and it's a nasty injury. I understand you suffered three injuries in your career. Yeah, I suffered three ACL ruptures

during my career, which was really challenging. I probably spent more time alone in the gym recovering from those injuries than I did playing internationally. But yeah, it's a number of ACLs we have seen this season and last season. And to be honest, throughout the history of women's football, I think there's a lot of debate around the actual education, around why this is happening, research around it.

But yeah, it looks like she was signalling as though she thought it was quite serious. From what I saw, it looked maybe potentially to be a meniscus, but her face told the story. I think she was in tears coming off the pitch. Yeah, we'll wait for more details on that. Maggie, we had that first game against Haiti, 53rd in the world.

It was a win, but it was an underwhelming win, as many said. I mean, how important is this game for the Lionesses in spite of that? I think this is the second game, I think, is when you really start to see the teams come through. First game is always going to be tough. I think that maybe a lot of people underestimated Haiti because we didn't know that much about them. It's their first World Cup. And ultimately, I'm sure that Claire would say this, all you want are three points. You just need that win. It doesn't matter how you get it.

That first game is really important just to rack up the points. The second game, we're starting to see that come through. And it looks like it's more of the England that we were expecting that seems to be shining through in this game now. What do we make, Claire, of Serena Weigman's starting positions and the layout for this game? Yeah, you know, I actually called these changes before the game, after watching that Haiti game. I think we had a slight disjointed in the way we played. I think we weren't fluid as we normally are. And bringing Lauren James in has clearly worked at getting that goal early on but what it is for me is actually those two wide players being able to pin their full backs

back and allowing James to pick the ball up in those spaces and equally Daly coming on Greenwood moving more centrally into that left-sided centre-back role allows Daly to push on higher to support James but also Greenwood is really, really comfortable on the ball, whereas we saw Millie Brighton not as comfortable in that last game, given she's been out injured for so long. England, of course, are missing some key players due to injury. Leah Williamson, Beth Mead, Fran Kirby. In your experience of playing, Claire,

how difficult is it for team mentality when you lose those big figures yeah you know what I think the team would be lying if they said it didn't mentally affect them in terms of balance people bring different things to the team and the dynamics of that team I think personality wise you know Kirby and Williamson offer different things both off the pitch and then on the pitch but losing your captain prior to the tournament it does change your your mindset but it is an opportunity for other players to step up I think sometimes you know in adversity we see other players shine so I think that's what we will be seeing look Keira Walsh has gone off injured this is an opportunity for Laura Coombs to come in and shine potentially Jordan Nobbs to get more

exposure in the World Cup and yeah it is very difficult. I know playing in FA Cup finals when, you know, things have to change last minute or in World Cup games when people have got injured and, you know, that momentum does shift. But it is about sticking to the game plan. You know your role and coming on and fulfilling that role. Let's talk about the kind of mental state of the players a bit more, because if you look off the pitch, Maggie, the England women's team took that decision to pause negotiation over World Cup bonuses and the row is far from resolved I imagine that's been a

cloud hovering over them as well I think yes and no I think they've been very sensible brave in the way that they've dealt with this by kind of knowing their boundaries and deciding that that was the point at which they were going to now focus on on the game but pick it up afterwards and they're not alone i think there's about six or seven nations that are competing at the world cup right now that are in disputes with their own federations whether over pay over prize money you even have the likes of canada who are the current olympic champions that are in a pay dispute after their budgets were cut just a few months ago going into the world cup so i think this is evidence once again that, I don't know, women's footballers are used to fighting and scrapping

and being resilient and being tough and trying to build better for the next generation. And it's a shame in a way that they're having to do that, but I think that it's not a new thing. This is affecting lots of countries around the world and there is a bit of unity in that as well, where you see players from different nations supporting each other when they're calling something out or demanding their dues in a way, or even just shining a light on some of the

other social issues around the world. And does this impact the game as well? Because, you know, when you talk about minimum standards not being met, you've got players having to take on more than one job, in some cases three to four jobs, and then they're expected to play at their best. I imagine this can't bode well when it comes to performance as well. Yeah, and I think that this is just evidence of where we are in the growth of the game. And the fact that there is a lot more visibility,

the fact that there are calls for higher standards is a really is a really really important development in the game at the same time we are still trying to catch up in terms of being able to generate the revenue to to support those foundations and so you get into this tricky situation where even for a club like like mine at lewis fc we're desperately trying to improve the the situation you know year on year and we are growing and developing but at the same time i don't have the standards that i want for my players i'm fighting for it i'm scrapping for it i want them to carry on demanding more of me because i'm going

to carry on trying to fight for them um but i also have to make money i don't have anyone to rely on let's say to to give me a handout of cash and it's and even when you look at things like prize money if if we got all the way through to the quarterfinals of the FA Cup this year, we played Manchester United, if we had won the amount of money that the men's side would have won if they'd got to the quarterfinals, I would be totally fine this season. I could improve the facilities, I could have better medical,

I could have increased staff. But the fact is that if I can't even earn the money off our own backs with that equal opportunity, then I'm always going to be scrapping and fighting and trying to piece together bits of money. I can hear how difficult that is for you. Claire, you've played in two World Cups for England, 2011, 2015. Kind of reflecting on what Maggie has had to say there about changes needed, changes that have happened. How different do you think the World Cup experience for women players is now? Very different, to be honest.

When I was playing, and Maggie obviously knows me quite well, having worked together at Lewis FC, I know that she's always pushing the boundaries there. And it is about not accepting what it is. So always breaking that barrier, not being afraid or ashamed to ask for what we deserve which is more than what we're getting at the moment and I think that's what's key here it's about being brave and I think obviously the the lionesses caused their discussions with the FA around

around the bonus pay but I think I would I was looking actually in a different way thinking the FA would see that as a deadline to actually get something done however that wasn't the case in terms of changes that I've seen i actually worked and played whilst i was at chelsea and west ham throughout my career so i would you know train in the morning get on the train to go to work and then work in in central london for deutsche bank in in the city so in terms of contact hours i didn't get the exposure to allow me to be the best best player i wanted to be or could have been um and this needs to change i know it is changing but it just goes down to actually the infrastructure investment facilities you know actually being able

to allow to pay these these players the enough money in order to actually allow them to you know not have to work um there there is a long way to go but i think what maggie said about you know the fa cup prize money i think that is is exactly what needs to change and it can change very quickly that will allow lewis fc for example to you know be sustainable for the rest of the season and then progress from there and if we're not getting that minimum standard then how can we expect the levels to progress all over the country? Before I let you go, Claire, putting aside the kind of finances for a moment, going back to the beautiful game and leaving on a positive, we've seen some good football. I mean, if we talk about

Haiti in England's first game, a lot of people talked about how dominant they were, how well they did. And there was a time where it was the US, Netherlands, Japan dominating. Is this going to change now? We're seeing quality from all sides. Yeah, and that comes down to the exposure. You know, actually, the players within these countries being able to see that they can be professional footballers. I think their standard of play was fantastic. I think you've seen Nigeria, you've seen the likes of Costa Rica,

Philippines, all these countries, the level has improved and then the gap consequently has then reduced in terms of the competitiveness of the games. And I think the more exposure that these teams have,

the more money that is reinvested into these teams, the more contact that these players can have and then consequently the level of play will increase. All links back. Thank you so much, Maggie Murphy and Claire Rafferty.

And we will come back to Maggie as well a little later in the programme. It's that time. It's that time to remind you that it's Listener Week coming up where we hand over the reins of Women's Hour to you. Is there an issue, story, interview or discussion that you'd like us to put on the airwaves? In particular, we are looking for unusual ideas and stories, topics related to women who might not know about who we might not know about or we don't usually cover.

Maybe it's archaeology, architecture, zoology, whether it's a personal story or a question that you'd like us to put to an expert, please do get in touch. You can text us 84844. You can also send us a message over on social media at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Question for you. How was your first day of work? Did you make a lasting impression? Well, a 19-year-old from Ponte Nea in Italy, started her new job as a lifeguard last week on Bufalara Beach in Sebaldia. On her first day, she made a triple rescue. She saved five lives and all of this was before her essential equipment had arrived. Well, let's speak to Naomi Maragona, who joins me now live from Bufalara Beach.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. Hello. Well, very, very good to have you with us. Sounds like you had a very busy first day at work and your story's been all around the world. Can you talk us through exactly what happened? Yeah, I was looking around, making sure no one got in trouble. And then I realized there was a man who got trapped into a current and realized that he was in trouble and ran to him by swimming because it wasn't possible to take the boat. So I just swimming and for saving his life. But then his wife and his son came to help him and got trapped into the same danger. So I had to save three lives instead of one. Goodness. And then when I got back and took a breath,

because it was very, very difficult to save them, I realized that another guy was trapped in the same trouble with his brother. So I had to go back here and swimming for the same hint too. I can't imagine that you would have thought this would be your first day of work. I mean, how did you feel? I felt really anxious about it because I thought I couldn't do it. But then when I realized I could save them, I just run and feel satisfied for myself.

Oh, good on you. So the instincts just kicked in. Sorry? So that instinct, all that training you had, it just kicked in and you knew exactly what to do. Yeah, the instinct. It was the instinct that made me do that. Yeah, yeah.

What an impressive first day. I wonder what the reaction was from your boss. The reaction? Yes, from your boss, from people around you. They were proud of me. Yeah. Of course. And the people you saved, of course, they must have been so, so thankful.

Yeah, I realised that was risky for me. Yeah, yeah. I wonder whether you got a day off. I would have certainly given you a day off if you were part of my team, saving five lives. Yeah. Yeah. They did. Good, good, good.

Tell us why, Naomi, you wanted to become a lifeguard in the first place. I really liked swimming since I was young. And I loved living on the beach. So I started to do that because it was my passion I mean you're only 19 and I imagine you started this very young, what's the training like?

I went into school and learned to swim for five months. And then I just do a test and started to work like a lifeguard. Are there many women who work as lifeguards on your team? I wonder what the reaction was like from your male colleagues.

There are not many women doing my job. But the girls that are in my team are very proud of me. Oh, good. As they should be. And I must ask you before you go, we know that the weather conditions are quite extreme in Italy right now.

I understand that the sea was very rough and dangerous yesterday. How are things? I imagine it's making your job a lot more difficult. Yeah. The weather was very, very bad. Yeah. Today is good.

Oh, that's reassuring to hear well all the best to you Naomi and well done again what a tremendous achievement you know a heroic act and I think you've really proven yourself so thank you so much Naomi Maragona joining us from Bufalara Beach here on Women's Hour

talking about her first day of work and we've also had this message from someone listening in about their first day of work who says hello Women's Hour, talking about her first day of work. And we've also had this message from someone listening in about their first day of work, who says, Hello, Women's Hour. I found out on my first day of work, the morning of, that I was eight weeks pregnant. It was the height of the pandemic,

and I was so nervous and scared about it all. Luckily, very supportive management and company and a great place to become a working first-time mum, though was known as pregnant one, although I was known as the pregnant one for quite a while, like I was known as the girl who fainted on her first day of work. So there you go. Thank you for your messages. Please do keep them coming in. Anna Sewell wrote just one book published in 1877, which went on to become one of the best selling novels of all time. Its full title, Black Beauty, His Grooms and Companions,

the autobiography of a horse translated by the original Equine. Despite suffering ill health throughout her life and dying just five months after the book was published, Anna managed to rouse the conscience of Victorian Britain and make her mark upon the world. Dr Celia Brayfield is a senior lecturer in creative writing at Bath Spa University, and she's written a book about Anna Sewell, Writing Black Beauty.

And she joins me now in the studio. Welcome to the programme. Thank you for having me. Black Beauty was groundbreaking in so many ways. It was unique in that genre of giving human-like qualities to an animal, but it differed in its own way. Talk us through that. Well, it's recognised as the first anthropomorphic novel. human-like qualities to an animal, but it differed in its own way. Talk us through that.

Well, it's recognised as the first anthropomorphic novel. The full subtitle was translated from the original Equine. So it's narrated by Beauty. Beauty is a horse, and he tells you what his life is like. And he tells you what his life is like with good owners and bad owners, with conscientious grooms who look after him and unconscientious grooms who almost kill him and do bring about the end of his famous stable companion, Ginger. It was written by Anna Sewell when she knew she was terminally ill. She had been disabled for most of her life. She had a fall running home from school when she was a young teenager. And just looking at the lionesses today, I'm thinking how much she would have loved to be able to play football. She was a very sporty, independent girl. And all that ended when she broke her ankle. Most of her life, she couldn't walk. And she was in constant pain.

And she was often probably psychologically very weak and ill in her 20s. But she rejected the life of a Victorian invalid. And really horses saved her life because she could still ride. Riding side saddle, you only need to use one foot. She could still ride and she could drive. And because she was quite physically weak, she relied on the empathy that she had with her horses. And there are beautiful descriptions of her talking to them. She was a Quaker, so she used thee and thou instead of you. And that's really important to note because her faith was central to her compassion for animals. Absolutely.

19th century Quakers were very clear that God lived in all creation, men, women and animals. And Quakers were very active in the early animal welfare movement. You also talk a great deal in the book about her relationship with her mother, Mary, and that was so central to her growth as well. It was a very beautiful relationship. They were very, very close. And the interesting thing, the great revelation in writing Black Beauty for me was that her mother was the best-selling author in the family. Her mother started writing when she was 60, properly, and started writing what Thackeray sneered at as low-church verse novels. They were popular novels intended for a working class readership. They covered very much the same ground as Dickens, dealing with deprivation and triumph over

adversity. But they were written for ordinary people. They were not written for an elite or literary audience. And Anna worked really closely with her mother for 15 years before she decided to write her own book. The other aspect that it's really important to bring up is the fact that animals were treated so badly by humans in the 19th century. In fact, you write in your book that by the time Anna was growing up in East London, the trade in animals in the city had attained an industrial scale. And the grasp of that reality feels really evident in Black Beauty. Yes, I think it was a particular feature of the Industrial Revolution that people started to treat animals really as if they were machines.

They did not care for their welfare at all. And the other thing to be concerned about, really, was that the people themselves were often no better treated. You were looking at starving, malnourished, brutalised people and the fact that they then didn't feed their animals properly and brutalised them in turn. They were simply passing on what they were suffering. And of course, Anna was observing all of this around her. She was, as I said, informed by her faith, as you've described in your book. But there's also a

chapter in your book where you said she actually studied to write Black Beauty. Explain that to us. Well, that was a description that one of her mother's writer friends gave. The family moved around quite a lot. It must be said her father was a fairly hopeless businessman and he had a pretty checkered career. At one point they were living in outside Brighton, but he was working in Brighton. And they were early commuters, early adopters of railway commuting. And she used to drive him to the station every day. And that was sort of in her late 20s, early 30s, when she had great trouble coming to terms with her disability. She found it

very hard to accept. She lost faith. And it was really this period where she was useful and she could succeed in managing the pony and the trap and contributing to the life of the family. That really turned her life around. That was when her health improved and she realised that she could make a contribution to life. She was influenced by various high-profile people in her life as well. Queen Victoria and Prince Alfred were both animal lovers. And then there was the portrait artist, Edwin Lancier. Tell me about him. Well, Lancier's famous now. I mean, we almost smile at paintings like The Monarch of the Glen with the Noble Stag

or Dignity and Impudence with the Cheeky Little Dog and the Grumpy Big Dog. He was hugely popular. He was a child prodigy. He was popular even before Queen Victoria hired him to paint all her animals. And Anna Sewell definitely knew his work. She copied two of his most famous paintings, including The Monarch of the Glen, because once she was no longer a Quaker and she could paint in oils, she was a good painter. And I suspect that the idea of an anthropomorphic interpretation of an animal's life began with her then quite unconsciously. Yeah, interesting. You write in the book that the story of Black Beauty is not only the story of one woman and one book, it is in fact the story of several women and a number of books.

What did you mean by that? Well, women were very active in the early animal rights movement and unfortunately to its discredit, the RSPCA couldn't deal with them. While it accepted the patronage of Angela Burdett-Coutts because she was massively wealthy, there were at least two other women activists

who had to leave the movement because they couldn't find a home with the RSPCA. And one of them wrote a sort of precursor to Black Beauty called Mother's Tales of Kindness to Animals, which was also a very influential book and it influenced the American animal rights movement as well. And then Black Beauty became an international bestseller thanks to an absolutely extraordinary American activist

called George Thorndike Angel, who 13 years after it was published, absolutely extraordinary American activist called George Thorndike Angel, who 13 years after it was published, discovered the book and absolutely weaponized it. He crowdfunded its American publication. He went on a 40-city lecture tour in the 19th century. It must have half killed him. And he used it to popularize his cause absolutely to the max. And that was really when the sales went from just under 100,000 to millions. And that was the success in the US. But prior to that, it had a great deal of success in

the UK. And Anna was told she was terminally ill at the time, that she wouldn't have long to live. And it was at that point that she began to write Black Beauty. But then she went on to live for another six years, died five months after the book's publication. I know, it's so poignant, isn't it? It became a word of mouth success immediately. It must be said she never made any money out of it. The publisher bought the rights outright for £20. And in the beginning, I don't think they knew what they had. It was this weird little novel produced by the daughter of one of their big literary stars,

her mother. And it was only really after Anna's death that her mother really funneled her grief into promoting her daughter's work and used her influence with the publisher to get it more widely published. And then it was really grassroots support that got it into bestseller status because reviewers in little provincial newspapers all over England were saying, why doesn't the RSPCA get on this book? Why don't people use this book? Everybody should read this book. So it was a slow burn and people didn't see its potential at the outset. And that leads me on to the question of lasting legacy, because the book has been reversioned multiple times. You know, it's drama, you name it. What do usual answer is, oh, yes, and oh, poor Ginger, I cried so much. It's a very moving book.

It's very simply written. She used the legacy of her mother's writing, which is why we think of it as a children's book. It wasn't written as a children's book. It's very accessible. It's very accessible. It's very relatable. It really touches your heart. And it succeeded where intellectual argument and political pamphlets didn't. How do the various adaptations of the book compare to the original, in your opinion? Well, I will salute Alan Cumming as definitely the best interpreter of Black Beauty himself.

Most of the adaptations of the book have huge trouble with the actual story. It's longing to be animated, but it never has been. I'm surprised it hasn't been. I know, what were they thinking? Because, you know, horses are wonderful but, you know, as equity members they've got a few limitations.

Yeah. So a lot of the adaptations really take the theme and take the iconic picture of the black horse and then make up their own story. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much, Dr Celia Brayfield, a senior lecturer in creative writing at Bath Spa University, on her new book, Anna Sewell, Writing Black Beauty and the story of animal rights. Thank

you for joining me in the Woman's Hour studio. A very interesting conversation. I've learned a great deal. Thank you. I do want to bring you the many emails we're getting the many messages that we are getting about your first days at work this message says please spare a thought for all those temps out there who may have a first day every week i tent for two years until i joined the civil service and found many first days a bit of a trial ranging from no one knowing i was coming because the on leave boss forgot to mention it to replacing a secretary who took all the filing cabinet keys with her and being given a presentation to deliver to 100 Strong office team within an hour of arriving. Michelle, I'm sure you met those challenges very well.

That's Michelle in Nottingham. And this message from Pam writes, 56 years ago in 1957, as a shy, gawky teenager of 16, my mom took me for an interview as a typist in an office on Tottenham Court Road. We went into a room where everyone had to shout as around 20 girls were pounding the keyboards of typewriters and the noise was deafening. The interviewer shouted to me, can you type? I had never touched a typewriter in my life, but I shouted back, yes. She thrust a sheet of paper at me and shouted, type something. I have no idea what gibberish I typed, but looked at the paper and shouted, OK, start Monday.

From then on, I had to keep up with all the others and eventually learned to type really fast with two fingers. I stayed there for many happy years. It was so easy to get a job done. Thank you, Pam, for that lovely story. Keep those messages coming in. I'll try and squeeze in a few more towards the end of the programme. In our final few minutes, let's return to our World Cup coverage as England take on Denmark. And a couple of guests we heard from earlier in the programme

are still with me. Jojo Ellison is part of Baller FC, who have organised a viewing party for women's football fans at their local pub. Jojo, how's it going? It's great. It's great. I mean, we can do it with one more goal. That'd be lovely. I hope you guys can hear me because it's way too busy here. We can also hear the cheers in the background. Oh, yes.

What are they cheering about? We've not had another goal. No, we haven't. I think they're just excited that we're on women's hours, to be honest. As they should be. Talk us through the other events that you are organising around the World Cup, because whilst you're there at the pub at the moment, this isn't the end of it. No, not at all.

So, obviously, because the games are at, you know, quite difficult times, we've created a festival of football. So we've got loads of other events that kind of last throughout the day. We have got our legendary chip it in the bin, which is essentially where you chip a ball into the bin. And then if

you win that, you can win a pair of Ida sports shoes. And we've got WOSO makeovers, we've got karaoke, we've got uh woso makeovers we've got karaoke we've got uh bat and panini bat panini sicker swats on every sunday which has been brilliant and i think that's all of it oh haircuts buzzcuts you're getting creative there and you said that there are a few men there are there danish fans there too oh yeah. How are they doing? They're doing good.

I think the wonderful thing about Royal Sea is that there is just so much love that you don't feel intimidated. Because I think obviously there are a lot of Danish fans here. But it is all just about the love for the game really and the love for each other. I think we are probably 99% women and non-binary. And there are a few men. I mean, we've still got some people arriving now just for the rest of the celebration.

So I'm actually working the door at the same time. I wonder whether the crowd there have a message for our Women's Hour listeners. Yes, go, go, go. I'm here. I've got some people with us. That sounds like a great one. Thank you so much.

Jojo Ellison, keep that party going. Let me turn back to great one. Thank you so much. Jojo Ellison, keep that party going. Let me turn back to Maggie Murphy, CEO of the Lewis Football Club, a part of the 2023 Women's Hour Powerlist celebrating women in sport. How's it looking?

I'm very nervous. Oh, are you? Why? Well, we've got, how much have we got? You know, another 20, 25 minutes left on the clock. A lot can happen.

But hopefully it will happen for us and not against us. That's the challenge. Is England playing to the strengths of its individual players, in your opinion? Well, just following it, I mean, I think we look a little bit nervy. I think we're dominating possession. But, you know, on the breaks, that's when we look a little bit more nervous on the ball.

And so we just need to keep on holding on to it, see if we can get another goal. Another goal would make me a lot... Reassured. Yeah, exactly. Celia, are you gripped? Oh, well, I just saw something that I wondered if the ref saw. Oh, really? What did you see?

Oh, there was a bit of a barge going on there. I was there. Missed it. Maggie missed it too. She was talking to me. You keep your eyes on the screen, Celia. Let me turn back to you, Maggie. Let's look ahead in the last couple of minutes of the programme. The Euros really invigorated women's football. It changed the scene. Do you believe that this tournament can do the same thing?

I mean, just this morning, our colleague was saying, where's the merchandise in the shops? Well, it's funny you say that because just on my walk to the studio here today, I looked at the big shops on Oxford Circus and I could see a lot of women's football up in the shops. And I remember very, very, very specifically four years ago there being nothing. I was actively traipsing around London trying to buy a shirt and there was nothing available anywhere. So we have to remember, even though we're always fighting and scrapping for more and wanting more visibility and more progress, we have to recognise that four years ago we didn't even have the same level as where we are right now. That has to keep on continuing. We need to carry on growing.

And I think the other thing that's really interesting is you've got some really interesting new sponsors to the game. People that have never, ever sponsored men's football, never been interested in it. And now suddenly they're coming into the World Cup. One of the World Cup sponsors, Xero, is sponsoring us lewis but they've been doing that because they want to think about the legacy so it's not just a one-off thing on the tournament it's it's trying to figure out how do we actually build this and grow this and i think that's what we're looking for those partnerships sponsorships the investment coming in um because ultimately i feel like women's football is on the cusp of something huge but it can't do it alone and you need all those people that are going to back it

and put their money where their mouth is as well. In the last minute of the programme, the Euros win, again, going back to that, it really meant that there's a lot more data out there about England and I wonder whether other teams might use that to their advantage. Well, I think the level of data equipment analysis, even just the fact that there's more data on female players, that is starting to grow. There probably is more data on England players

than there are on some players from other countries. But ultimately, it's what happens on the pitch, isn't it? Absolutely. Your prediction for the game? We've got about, how long have we got left? About 20-odd minutes? Yeah, I think we'll hold out, but I think it's going to be a really, really horrible final 20 minutes. But I think it'll stay one now.

Celia, your prediction? I'm using you as our second football expert here. Oh, my goodness. Black beauty to football. Well, I agree with the previous speaker. Yeah, there you go. I bow to her expertise. Well, there you go.

That is the right answer. Maggie Murthy and also Celia Brayford, thank you so much. And I'm sure we'll come back to you in the coming weeks, hopefully if England progress as well. Thank you to all of your messages coming in. We've also had a number of messages on Alison Rose as well. Linda writes, Alison Rose resigned because she made a fundamental mistake for which there were serious consequences. And another says Alison Rose had to resign because she talked to a journalist about financial affairs of a customer to a bank. So in accord there. That debate continues, as do our conversations over at BBC Women's Hour. Thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Women's Hour over at BBC Sounds.

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