Woman's Hour - Women's football World Cup, 'Older-age orphans', Channel swimming with a stoma, Caroline Moran, Women's feet

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

The Lionesses are through to the Women's World Cup semi-final on Wednesday against co-hosts Australia. Reaching semi-finals of major tournaments is what England "are known for", says defender Lucy Bronze. Lucy's mum, Diane Bronze and former Lioness and football comemntator Anita Asante discuss. Many baby boomers are experiencing the death of their parents much later than previous generations. The journalist Helen Bullough and clinical psychologist Dr Linda Blair discuss the impact of being parentless in older age. Gill Castle will be the first person to attempt to swim the channel with a stoma. She's documenting her journey to crossing the channel in The Stoma Swimmer - a new audio series for BBC Sounds.What would happen if the apocalypse happened in the middle of a hen party? Caroline Moran, known for writing Raised by Wolves, has written a brand new comedy for BBC Two looking at just that. She joins Nuala to talk about why she wanted to create the series, Henpocalypse, and what to expect. How much can you tell a woman's life story through her feet? Emma McConnachie, who is a podiatrist and a spokesperson for the Royal College of Podiatry, explains how our feet change as we age. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregorOpener 00:00 Football 01:55 Older Orphans 13:36 Henpocalypse 30:09 Swim 39:36 Women and feet 48:21

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. I hope you had a good weekend. Maybe you caught the England-Columbia game on Saturday. Well, that 2-1 result for England means the Lionesses are blazing their way through to the semi-finals against co-host Australia. That will be on Wednesday. the Lionesses are blazing their way through to the semifinals against co-host Australia. That will be on Wednesday.

England defender Lucy Bronze, she says she's confident that the Lionesses can progress to the finals. So we're going to hear from Lucy's mum, Diane, who is down under, and also from former Lioness, Anita Asante. Also today, losing a parent in later life. Now, this is something I don't think we really speak about that much.

Understandably, we are grateful for having our parents with us for a longer time, but it does bring its own challenges. Losing someone that you've had in your life, maybe for 55 or 60 or 65 years of your life. And as we are all living longer, it can mean more frailty in our parents. So caring for a parent as you also move into an older age. And I think you'll have stories to tell me and our listeners on this. I want to know what has the impact been on you if this has happened to you, losing a parent in later life. You can text the programme. The number is

84844 on social media. we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. To send a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Now, my guests have thought deeply about this, so that conversation is coming up. Also today, Caroline Moran on apocalyptic hen parties. Maybe you have a story to tell on that too.

We also have the first woman attempting to swim the channel with a stoma and the five phases even of women's feet. That is also coming up a little bit later. But let us turn first to the weekend of success for England's lionesses. They beat Columbia, as I mentioned, 2-1 in the Women's Football World Cup quarter-final. So now mark your calendars. Australia at 11 o'clock on Wednesday for the semis.

That age-old rivalry between England and the nation down under. And whatever the results of the next few matches, the winner of the Women's World Cup this year will be a first-time winner, as none of the four final teams have won before. So what are England's chances

and what's it like being down there watching? Well, I'm joined now by former Lioness Anita Asante and also the mother of Lucy Bronze, Diane Bronze,

who's in Australia watching the action. Let me begin with you, Diane. We heard a message from you the other week on Women's Hour as you were supporting the girls, you know, pushing them ahead. How nerve-wracking is it?

How are your nerves holding up? Mostly fine. I don't watch penalties. So they were all laughing at me because I just sit with my head in my hands. So when we had penalties the other day, it's like, I'm not watching, not watching at all. And we like to watch it on playback.

So we did re-watch the match. Lucy's brother is here as well with all of his family. So if you hear the thunder of tiny fetics, the toddler's running around just before bedtime. And so we re-watched the match. It was much more comfortable against Columbia than it felt at the time. It was quite a cauldron in the stadium because the colombian fans were extremely vocal and and yeah

vocal that was quite stressful but when we watched it back when we watched it back it said actually the girls looked so calm and organized and isn't that what they were doing and my son was going, it's fine. Isn't it so interesting, first time, second time watching? Let me bring in Anita here. How did you feel as watching it the first or second time, Anita? Yeah, I was kind of tense myself. I was quite nervous because, you know, you just know what's at stake as a former player.

But seeing the girls out there and knowing, you know, if they get the result and if they get the performance that they're going to progress, you know, is always a big thing. But I also felt like Diane, you know, in the end that I trusted that they would deliver. And it did. There was a sense of calmness among them more so than us, I guess, watching. You could see that in their play you know they went down against Colombia earlier but they still had the kind of they had momentum at the start of the game they were the team on top and I feel like you know they managed those circumstances really well. Do you think they played as well as they could have? I think that we as football fans

sometimes we always want the perfect performance and at this level, there's such fine margins between the sides because they're all got quality and talent. And you don't always get that dream performance that you want to see. But what you do see is how this team has grown together and they manage the pressure, the expectation and deliver in the critical moments. So I wouldn't say it was a better performance than China. No, but definitely in terms of a monster mentality is what people are saying. I think we definitely witnessed that with this England side. OK, well, critical moments. Let's talk about Australia. How do you see it? This is Wednesday at 11 for my listeners if they didn't catch that. Well, I don't envy Diane because I'm sure she's going to be

among the Australian supporters. Again, probably very vocal as you put it. But yeah, I think it's going to be an incredible atmosphere, hopefully a packed stadium, but a very tough game and players on both sides

that know each other extremely well. You know, many of them are teammates in the WSL. So it's going to be a really good contest, I think. So the only game, if I understand this correctly, that England have lost under Serena Wigman was a friendly against Australia. Do you think that'll be playing on players' minds, Anita? No, I don't.

I think sometimes you need those situations to happen. You have to fail sometimes in a game circumstance to improve on it, to not get complacent, to know that you need to show up and do your best. And now they've experienced that. They almost have that kind of, we know what this Australian team is like and how they might play.

So they're better accustomed to what they might face and meeting them again uh so i feel like they will be ready you know to face this straight and they won't let that kind of psychology affect them what do you reckon diane uh completely i i agree with anita it's it's a completely different thing and anita knows well there's a one-off friendly and tournament play are completely different things completely different things when you're playing every three days and you you've already like australia have been to extra time and penalties and they have the whole nation expecting them so they've got a different expectation on them as well so it's it's a

different thing it's a different animal altogether to playing a friendly. Do you get to see Lucy? Yeah, we were there yesterday. So we stay, they're at work. You've got to remember they're at work. Yeah, this is what I'm thinking. And they work really hard.

Sorry? That's what I was thinking. They're at work. I'm just wondering, do they actually get any time out to see the family? Because I understand the supporter group is massive

that is down there, as you've been describing as well. And I'm just wondering what interaction you actually have. any time out to see the family? Because I understand the supporter group is massive, that is down there, as you've been describing as well. And I'm just wondering what interaction you actually have. There are specified times. There are specified times that they fit in as a downtime. So yesterday afternoon was one of them and all the families went and saw them. And actually, the best thing is actually us having the toddlers i think because the whole team was just running around with them playing with koala bears and table

tennis and yeah just silly things and it just you need something like that to not discuss a football match, to not discuss what's coming up, whatever, to have a few hours of just chilling. Yeah, to decompress. It sounds perfect. It's very specified. Yeah. Yeah.

Did I read also, Diane, with you, that you weren't always a football fan? Oh, you knew nothing about football. You knew nothing about you knew nothing about football I tell everybody today when she was 11 nothing at all until she was 11 and they said she can't play because she's a girl it's like don't tell me my daughter can't do something because she's a girl. And that was a change. Before that, it was, yeah, I took her to things. I always took her to tennis, swimming, football, whatever she needed to take to.

But it never crossed my mind that it was an issue until I was told she wasn't allowed to play for the boys' team at the end of the street. And I had to do a lot of research to find somewhere she could go to play with girls. And I mean, I don't like that was when she was 11. When people talk about her achievements, that she's won just about everything. I know the World Cup will be something that I'm sure she will want to have also that achievement on her roster yeah but I think the pressure's off to some extent because she always said she wanted to win something with

England and they've done that they won the Euros that so that's the big deal um I know she knows and the thing is it's small margins when you get to semi-finals of something like this it's small margins and so I know they can. I know they're capable of winning. Absolutely. But it's not as easy as people think. I understand. Let me turn back to you, Anita.

Lots of fans were disappointed after Lauren James received a red card in the quarterfinals that was against Nigeria. So she can't play in the semis. She was out for that. But we'll be back for the final, perhaps. I believe also, you know, the whole England team

are probably processing that. How did you see it? Yeah, I just saw a player that has been influential, has helped England get to the stage that they have gotten to in the quarterfinal and had a moment of frustration where, you know, she didn't have control of her emotions in that particular moment. And it resulted in a consequence, which was her missing, obviously, the semifinal and her getting sent off. But that happens in sports sometimes and she isn't the first and probably won't be the last athlete to have a moment where you know that they want to do so well that they and they're not

you know doing well in that particular game for whatever reason lots of variables um and it just doesn't work out but i think she has the presence of mind and a great support network within the squad i think the players have been very together on this in supporting her and helping her grow. And we've got to remind, remember that this is her first major tournament with England. So, you know,

she's got a long way to go in her career and hopefully she will learn from that experience. I believe Lucy has been somewhat of a mentor to her as well, Diane. I know as much about that as you do. That's what I've read, yes. Yeah, OK. You're assuming Lucy tells me stuff.

I do indeed. I hear it's very limited downtime, so perhaps you can't get through every issue. Right, before we go, what are you thinking when it comes to Australia if you were betting women which maybe you are anita you first oh well i'm obviously backing england for the win but um i think it's going to be a very difficult game i think you know sam kerr potentially starting returning she's

always a problem um but i just feel that england all the components. They can manage extra time. They've managed to come through penalties. They've been to a major final and won before with being the host nation. So they've experienced it firsthand as opposed to Australia. So I think they will come through and win. Cautiously optimistic. Diane?

Exactly what she said. I missed some of it because my signal kept going through there. But yeah, absolutely. That's why we're here for. We believe they can do it. Your message for Lucy and the Lionesses? My message? Go ahead, Anita.

Yeah, my message? Just go for it. I was also noted. My message. Go ahead, Anita. Yeah, my message. Just go for it. I was also noted. Go ahead, Anita. Go ahead, Diane. Sorry. My thing when she was younger was go Lucy, go,

because I didn't know enough about football to give her any advice so the parents would say cross or do this or do that but I've always just said go Lucy go that's it And you're saying go for it Anita

so let us see how it goes everybody feeling very hopeful I think the signal keeps going No worries don't worry about it

we did get your message go Lucy go that's Diane Brods and also we had with her Anita Santé thank you both so much for joining us and you can watch the Lionesses Against Australia

live from 11am on BBC One or listen live on BBC Radio 5 Live. Thanks for all your messages coming in, 84844, as I move on to our next topic and that is the death of parents. You know, at a young age it can be a terrible

loss, really long-lasting effects but the death of parents when you know, at a young age, it can be a terrible loss, really long-lasting effects. But the death of parents when you're older can also be devastating, difficult to talk about, and affects an increasing number of people as the population ages and continues to have a longer life expectancy. That is the conclusion of journalist and producer Helen Bullough, whose Helen's father was in his 90s.

He died recently, nine years after the death of her mother, leaving Helen, as she calls herself, an old age orphan. Helen is here with us. Also with us is Dr. Linda Blair, who is a psychologist and author. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Good morning. I'm just having a look at the messages. So many have come in already and I'll get to them in just a moment but I was putting it out to my listeners a little earlier

so it's obviously touched a nerve. But Helen, you're in your 60s. Why did you feel the need to write about this? And I'm sorry for the loss of your father. Oh, thank you for saying that. 59, Nuala. Oh, forgive me. A couple of months to go yet before the big six. Yes, I was

asking myself that question this morning on the number 159 bus, because it's very unusual for me to write about something that feels so very personal. And it was tough to write it. And, you know, as you say, my dad, our dad, I should say, I have two sisters who are 55 and 65. You know, our dad was a very, very dear man. And, you know, his whole family adored him and he adored us back. So obviously, the first emotion anybody feels in that situation is terrible sadness. But sitting with the sadness as you have to, because grief gives you no options. I was aware that, first of all, the same thing was happening to a lot of friends and colleagues, it felt like at the same time. And that secondly, this new state of being parentless was throwing up more questions for me than I'd expected.

You know, I don't know whether I was disassembled or discombobulated. It was definitely something that began with either dis or un. But I felt a deep curiosity to try and work out why the effect of becoming parentless at this age was having the impact it seemed to. And what were some of the questions it threw up, Ellen? So I wondered why it was that having lost my mum, as you say, nine years ago ago and then my dad the combined

loss seemed above and beyond the loss of those two individuals it felt like that there was something wider going on and my sense is that you know grief at any age you know losing your parents at any age as you say it's a terrible thing but when you, you know, at the age of 59, my parents had been with me for a long time, all the way through university and relationships and having children and changing jobs. They'd been with me the whole time. And I think one of my interviews said this really eloquently. You know, the longer you are any kind of child, the more security that you have. You're never alone. And therefore it casts a longer shadow when you lose that security and I also think that the life stage that many of us baby boomers are at when this loss is happening now and Linda speaks about this you know really eloquently we're at a

point where other things in our life are changing at the same time we're changing jobs we're moving house the kids are establishing their own lives elsewhere so there's a lot of transition going on simultaneously and then the rug being pulled out from under your feet linda what impact do you think death of a parent in an older age when we are an older age has on our sense of identity? I think it's a lot more profound. I was quite surprised when Helen and I began talking about this, we realized just how very important and new this is, because of course, we haven't been living so long until very recently. And I think I should add here, we haven't been living so long and frail,

because that brings in the caring aspect, which is another important part. Because, as Helen alluded, we have many identities in life. I love the analogy that we're like a lotus, you know, and different petals keep opening up. And we've probably been a worker. We've been a friend. We've been a parent. We still are. But these things have lessened their hold by the time we're at sort of my age. I'm in my 70s. You know, you're probably retired. Not me, but most people. You're probably without your children at home now. Many of your friends may have scattered. So those identities, and we need more than one, are weaker or lessened. And the caring side of things may have come into the fore caring for that parent not with everyone but with many and when that goes wow you know you're not a child you're not a carer

you're not central as a parent you're not working what are you know, we've got so many messages in, as I alluded to. Here's a few. I'm 58. 16 years ago, my parents moved in with us. Yes, I have a very understanding husband. When they returned from living abroad and were unable to afford a place of their own, I cared for both my parents until they passed. My dad after three years and my mum after 14 years. I look back and I wonder how I managed it all. Love can be very motivating. I'm a bit lost now. Boys at uni, mum not long gone. I wonder what now for me. And that's Maz in Harrow getting in touch. Here's another, or a couple actually, along the same lines. Hello, I was 66 when I lost my mum last year. I remember trotting out the line, I was lucky to have had her for so long, which is true.

But it doesn't actually mean that you grieve any less. I found that other people assume that the fact she lived a long life, she was 93, means you can cope more easily with that loss. It does help on an intellectual level, but doesn't stop those sharp moments of grief. Here's another from Nikki. My mum passed away in July at the age of 95. I'm 62. My father is still with us. It was a life well lived, but I find it very difficult

if other people say something like, it's okay for me to say she was 95 and did very well, but it's not okay for someone else to say it. It feels like they're robbing me of my grief. I know I was lucky. I have angry moments, but mostly sad for my dad who now has so much time in his hands.

He doesn't know how to relax and occupy himself. What about those, Helen? Yeah, I think that really strikes a chord. And a couple of the people I spoke to, I think we agreed that although it comes from the very best of intentions, those phrases like, you know, had a good innings or lived to a ripe old age. The intention is not to diminish you know what you're feeling but the impact of it can be quite different and you know we you know we often say that however much we try we're still not awfully good at some of these conversations and if you are talking to someone who is suffering from a bereavement really I, I think, you know, what we want to hear is, how are you? You know, should I just sit with you for a bit, rather than people trying to sympathise? Because you can't really guess what anybody's grief is like. It's all individual,

isn't it? So I think it has good intentions. But I think the impact on us really is just to say, understand me a little bit. And, you know, when I've been talking to people about losing their parents later on in life, I think we were very aware that we have spent literally months of our life talking about partners or house prices or which schools our kids could go to. But on this important thing of what does it really feel like

to lose our parents, none of us really had spent a lot of time discussing it with each other. So we were, you know, mutually grateful for having the opportunity to have the conversation. And my sense is that the conversation can and should continue with others as well. Yes. What about that, Linda? What is helpful to say to somebody, do you think, if they have lost a parent in older age? Yeah, what's most useful is to listen.

We have a phrase in therapy about the power of silence. And just being with someone and showing that you care about them is just so good for them at that time because they don't often know what all they're feeling. There's anyone who's grieved knows you have to sort out so many things. And this is the first time that you've lost someone of, well, probably who you've been with for that many years. You know, that's probably the longest relationship of your whole life. So it's really important to be there and show acceptance because one of the things people will talk about is feeling guilty that they wished sometimes that

they didn't have to keep doing the caring. And that's normal. That's a normal kind of thought. I have yet in over 40 years of therapy to find anyone who had those thoughts and acted on them. That would be the crucial thing. Nobody acts on it. They still care. Some more messages coming in. Hi, Woman's Hour. I'm in my 60s and still have both my parents that are in their 90s.

And I have a strong sense that I won't quite know who I am until after they've died. I've also been thinking about the possibility that I may never know this, as I may die before they do. And it's a very strange feeling. And I just wonder if other listeners can identify with this. What about that, Linda? Wow. Yeah, I mean, that isn't something we think about, because we certainly don't expect to have our children precede us in death. I think it's just important to talk about it because, as I say, in general, it's new. And when something is new, we want to understand it. We want to feel we can predict from it. And we just don't have that assembly

of people to help us do that yet. So we have to help each other. I'm hearing so much devastation actually really coming in from the listeners. Let me read a few more. I lost my parents seven months apart, aged 85 and 90, fit and healthy. I describe it as they danced at the edge of a cliff then fell off. Good for them, of course. But at the age of 58, I've been totally devastated, Lost my lifelong best friends, rocks and cheerleaders. I was unprepared and gave struggling and I'm struggling to find a new purpose. I found the saying, they had

good innings, dismissive of my pain. Another woman's hour. My mum died last September, 10 months after my dad. I'm 49 and have felt somewhat rudderless. Every time something significant happens in my life, I want to tell them I miss them so much. That's Sophie from Abington. I'm sorry for your loss.

And another, my parents and I, where I'm all disabled, we all cared for each other at one time or another. Dad died last year of dementia and bladder cancer. Mum died on Thursday last week. I'm so sorry.

I don't have a name for that person. Last week from myeloma and related sepsis. I'm beyond bereft. They were my world and now I need to find my way without them somehow. I cannot begin to imagine my life without my beautiful mum. I'm 40. So at that age where a few of my friends have experienced the loss of one parent tragically, but very few of both. I don't think it's easy at any age, but I also don't think it necessarily gets easier as you get older for exactly the reasons you stated.

There's a number of issues that are coming to my mind as I listen to them, because, of course, there is a family there as well. And we talk about the relationship you have with your parents have been one of the longest that you have in your life. But some also have siblings. And let's talk about that for a bit. The impact on the sibling relationship when parents die in very old age. Helen, I heard you mention that you have two siblings. I do. Yeah, I've got two sisters. And I think there's a couple of aspects to this, actually. So the most obvious physical aspect is that often the, you know, the death of both parents means also the loss of the family home. So that whole sense of, you know, the base where you have all come together, siblings, parents, there's been a physical facility, you know, where that family has gathered. But of course, that's a symbol for what the parents are really doing. You know, the parents are gluing the family together. And, you know, in their later years, you know, my sisters, who I love very much, and I often triangulated our conversations through our parents, or talked about them, you know, what were they up to, who was visiting when, who'd had which version of the latest medical update?

So I think when you take that parental framework away, you know, siblings who are, you know, united in a similar feeling of sadness also have to re-engineer their bonds. You know, the whole family structure has to resettle. Somebody has to take responsibility for keeping in touch with other relations. Somebody has to take responsibility for gluing it all together. And as siblings, it's a conversation which I think it takes a while to get to. But do you think that happens? I mean, I could definitely see it all just falling away. I think it does happen. One of our other interviewees, Dylan, remarked on something which

I really recognised was that he'd just come back from having tea with some of his dad's old friends. Nobody had asked him to do that. Nobody had sent him a letter saying you are now the head of your family. But he thought that his dad would have appreciated that and so he'd done it. So I think it takes a while to feel your way through all of these things. But if you value, you know, if you've been lucky enough to come from a stable, loving family that your parents have built for you, then you want to nurture it and you want to do a little bit of work at re-establishing, you know, some of those new ways of working basically together.

And I think perhaps when a parent dies, when we're older, you're trying to still latch on to that era that they represented, be it the 1920s, the 1930s. And so perhaps then, like one of your interviewees reaching out to older relatives to try and maintain that bond. Here's another. I'm 74 next month. Husband is approaching 75. His parents died within nine months of each other over the past 18 months. One aged 96, the other 97.

For me, the main difficulty is that we're directly facing the issues and complications of older age for ourselves, as well as simultaneously trying to help them navigate these issues. Linda, I'll let you have the last word on that thought. Yeah, absolutely. The way we've structured society now, we're so afraid of death and it looks like we should prevent it.

And those things may, anything we don't know about or we have hidden from us makes us more scared. So I think that's another big problem. I just want to say one thing about siblings because it's so important, which is that often siblings fall out during the caring process because usually one does more than the others.

And there's a lot of repair that's necessary because all our research shows how important your siblings are as you get older. They become more and more important. Thank you both so much. So interesting. People continue to message Dr. Linda Blair and Helen Bullough. Thank you both. Now, I want to let you know about what is coming up next week. It's Listener Week.

It's the week when you're in charge. You decide the agenda from young carers to migrant nannies. There are women from a certain part of society, perhaps, who we don't normally hear from. Well, this is your chance to shine a light on stories that you feel

have been overlooked in the media. To get in touch, the text is 84844. You can check with your network provider for exact costs. Also on social media,

we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can indeed email us through our website. Thanks for all your messages coming in today on 84844. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Now, imagine what would happen if the apocalypse came about while you were at a hen party. I'm talking about women dressed up to the nines, penis-related paraphernalia maybe, suddenly plunged into an end-of-world situation. Well, as of tomorrow, we no longer have to imagine because BBC Two have a brand new comedy series, Henpocalypse. And at the start of the series, five women arrive at a secluded cottage in Wales

for a hen party. But while they're there, an epidemic of crab measles, crab measles, a disease that mainly affects men, breaks out and the nation is plunged into chaos and strict quarantine, meaning the hen party and their male stripper have to stay put with limited supplies. Now, to give you an idea, here's a clip of the bride-to-be, Zara, and her head bridesmaid, Shelley. They've just got back from recapturing Drew, the male stripper, in quarantine with them

after he tried to escape. It had been Shelley's job to look after Drew. Thanks a bunch, Shell. You had one job. One job? I organised this whole hen do and I paid for it. Yeah, well, I'm in no state to do donkey work. Donkey work?

Don't know if you noticed, Shell, but my wedding got cancelled by the apocalypse. Yes, well, human civilisation also got cancelled. So that sort of puts your wedding into perspective. How dare you put my wedding into perspective? I love that line. The writer and creator is the award winning Caroline Moran, who you might know for her work on the series Raised by Wolves and Hall Raisers. Welcome. Hi, Nuala. So good to have you with us. First, where did you get the idea?

I have been on quite a lot of hen do's and I've had to organise quite a lot of hen do's. Do you like them? Some of them have been fantastic. Some of them I have found myself thinking, actually, if the end of the world was to happen right now, would that be such a bad thing because it would end this event? What is it about them?

I mean, why that particular social event that raised its head and you're thinking, yes, the apocalypse and that will make for a great series? I think there's a, because there's often quite a lot of pressure around a hen do, that it has to be a certain thing, that it has to be perfect, that it has to be the kind of ideal send off for a woman before she gets married. And so there's a lot of expectations and then expectations times alcohol times women secluded together can sort of end up with chaos and a lot of sort of shadowy parts of people might emerge. And there can often be a sort of hierarchy that emerges,

especially on the longer Hindus, because there's a sort of hierarchy of who's been invited, why. The mother of the bride sometimes is in charge. The bride herself has all her whims. And so there's sort of anthropologically, there's something kind of interesting about that. And I thought, OK, what if you went on a Hindu and it never ended and you were always stuck in that hierarchy? Absolute hell for some people.

Some of them are great. That's important to throw it out there. 8-4, 8-4-4. They're not my favourite social event. I'm going to put that out there. You know, many of the listeners may disagree with me on that. And that is fine. Tell me, do you love them or hate them?

But let's talk about this series because this, the crab, just even the thought of it, right? Crab measles is an affliction that affects men much more than women in this, which also is hilarious. Yeah, well, my thinking there was kind of on a hen do because there are no men present. There are certain kinds of behaviour that you see women exhibit that you wouldn't see if men were around. And so in order to kind of explore that more, we had to get rid of the fellas. So, I mean, there are some men still in the show, but it's mainly about the kind of the idea of people will often say, if women were in charge, the world would be much better. And so that's kind of fun to explore.

But there's so much in it that reminds us of crazy behaviour that was taking place during the pandemic in the sense of desperation in various guises. But this was written back in 2018. Yeah, yeah. What the? Yeah, it was What the? Yeah. It was quite odd to me. You're Cassandra. Yeah. People have called me that. Yeah. So it's not in any way

to do with COVID. I wrote it before. That's quite something. Yeah. It was quite odd when COVID then came along. Yeah. Because you'd already imagined it but through a hen party lens. What about the characters? Who is your favourite, would you say?

And as we're mentioning there, there's a number of characters, be it the bride or bridezilla, perhaps, the chief bridesmaid, the mother of the bride. Well, I mean, I shouldn't really have favourites because I love them all. I always love all my characters. And to a certain extent, they are probably parts of my own personality. But Bernadette really does it for me. A huge part of that is because of how brilliantly she's played by Elizabeth Barrington. But she's absolutely who

I would, I think I would want her with me in the apocalypse. I'm not entirely certain about that. But I think definitely I'd want to be behind her and make sure she was on side with me. Because you have thought about the apocalypse before this series. Yeah, I've thought about the apocalypse. You've had a fear of it. Yeah, quite a lot. Yeah. When I was very young, watched the Raymond Briggs animation When the Wind Blows, which my parents told me was the sequel to his other film, The Snowman. But he's actually, it's a very moving, very tender, but very, very frightening.

Very frightening. When you're eight years old, a story of a very sweet couple sort of dealing with nuclear war. So not like The Snowman. And sort of since then, and then my dad was very kind of conspiracy theory, into conspiracy theories. And I think also it was a reflection of kind of our financial and housing situation at the time was quite precarious. And I think that sort of fed into my subconscious as kind of what if it was to all go away. And so it's been with me. And because it's my personality to do so, I sort of tackle that with making fun of it.

And so hence I wrote a radio show about preppers. You were one once. I got into it. I was a very lame prepper because it's an exciting idea. It's the idea that you kind of get everything that you would need to survive the apocalypse. But everything you need to survive the apocalypse is quite a lot of stuff. So you need a lot of storage space and it's quite a lot of financial outlay to buy all this kind of

freeze dried food and special hunting weapons and stuff so that sort of, the interest in that sort of drifted away a bit Have you exercised that fear of the apocalypse now with the series? I have started a pension which is what I

didn't do in my 20s because I was convinced that the world would end before I needed one. So that would suggest I'm slightly more optimistic about the future. What about working

with an all-female cast, particularly in comedy? Yeah, it's just great. I mean, it's absolutely brilliant. And there is a sort of a special feeling, you know, because it's quite rare. And I think also the cast were all kind of aware

that this doesn't happen all the time. And they really got a lot out of it. And yeah, it was great. And just seeing all these different characters, very often there'll be sort of one or two female characters in something. But here we had endless female characters, which was brilliant.

Apart from poor Drew, the stripper. Poor Drew, yeah. Well, you know, we have to have some token men in something. But here we had endless female characters which was brilliant. Apart from poor Drew, the stripper. Poor Drew, yeah. Well, you know, we have to have some token men in there and I've tried as much as possible to give them their humanity

as people. And there are also a couple of other guys who pop up but I'm not sure how much I can say about that without spoiling it. We don't want to spoil it.

I won't even get into the posse of Pilates instructors. They're just going to have to watch. But do you see a second series? I would love for there to be a second series, yeah. I think there's definitely more that could happen.

And the series, there's sort of lots of hooks through the series. I mean, it ends in a place where definitely there's good potential for another series. If you were going to have a hen party, what would you do? I would not have a hen party because I very much don't want to get married. Maybe almost entirely because it would mean I would have to have a hen do.

We're going to have to hear about the hen party with the listeners, aren't we? 844 anything that would you have liked an apocalypse to get you out of it? I want to hear the stories. Thank you so much Caroline Moran. Henpocalypse is on BBC Two and BBC iPlayer. That is tomorrow

from 10pm. You are listening to Woman's Hour. Some more of your messages that have been coming in. My parents died seven months apart in 2020. It knocked me for six. I have one brother who has refused to be involved

in anything to do with any of it. It's meant I'm still clearing the family home three years later. I'm a disabled woman who is 49. Another, I find the discussion on grief very interesting. I was orphaned at the age of six and actually watched my mother die. I can't imagine living a life with those parental figures

then lose them in a very strange way. I feel like I'm the lucky one. Best of wishes to everyone who is struggling with the death of a parent. And that comes in from Jasper. Thanks, Jasper. 84844. Now, let me move on to my next guest, who's taking on the challenge of a lifetime.

Jill Castle is about to attempt to swim the channel, but she will be the first person to do so with a stoma. So a stoma is an opening that's surgically created through the abdomen. It allows faeces and urine to be diverted through the tummy into a pouch called a stoma bag. After illness or injury means that part of the colon has to be removed. Jill has lived with a stoma since experiencing complications during the birth of her son 12 years ago.

And she's documenting her journey to crossing the channel in the stoma swimmer it's a new audio series for bbc sounds which is released today we do have a little extract of that to play you in just a bit but jill um let's talk a little bit more about that and welcome it was complications during the birth of your child that led to the stoma yes good morning thank you very much for having me on um yeah so it was 12 years ago in october the end of october that i gave birth to my first and only child sam he was six weeks premature and because he was premature it meant obviously he was smaller than normal so he was only four pounds seven and um babies actually have to help themselves out with the birthing

canal but he was he got tired, got stuck. His heart rate went down, so they had to use forceps to whip him out. Obviously, they saved his life, but at the same time, they caused me extensive injuries. And I was left with a fourth-degree tear, a rectovaginal fistula, and a massive abscess. But these were all missed, okay? So I was originally diagnosed with having a second degree tear. I was stitched up for a second degree tear. Then they thought it was a third degree tear. And then ultimately after five days I collapsed in the corridor,

was found by a male midwife, was told that my severe agony was my perception of the pain. And eventually when I was examined under gas and air, all of my injuries were discovered. And as an emergency I was fitted with a colostomy, a stoma bag, which I now have, still 12 years later. I mean, does that leave you with a lot of anger? Surprisingly not anger, actually,

because for me, anger is entwined with bitterness, and I think they're really negative emotions. So for me, it was more deep, deep trauma, vulnerability, and anxiety, to be honest. I've never actually felt bitter about what's happened to me, which sounds really bizarre. And most people don't understand that that but I think bitterness can eat you up inside and it's just not a useful emotion to have. But yeah, I mean, it left me catastrophically injured mentally and physically. You know, I was diagnosed with PTSD, severe anxiety, hypervigilance,

you name it, you know, I had it and this fistula was actually infected for a year because they're so... So a fistula, to explain, is a hole where there isn't meant to be one. And the hole for me was between my rectum and my vagina, which meant that I was actually incontinent. So there was faeces coming out of my vagina, which, as you can imagine, was horrific. And this was actually septic. This tract was septic for a year until it was horrific. And this was actually septic.

This tract was septic for a year until it was fixed. And, yeah. Now, since then, I know you have completed so many challenges, triathlons, Ironman, skydiving. So, obviously, you have channeled so much of your energy, you know, into just doing amazing things and not letting anything hold you back. Why swim the channel now?

Well, that is a good question. I'm wondering why am I going to do this next week? So, yeah, I mean, ultimately, I want to show my son that his birth didn't destroy my life, because it certainly didn't. It sent it in a different direction, because I was actually a working police officer and I was medically discharged so i lost my job as well um and yeah i just really want to show to him and everybody else that um you can experience great trauma your whole life can go upside down but you can still turn it around and achieve great things um you

know you don't need to let trauma dictate the pattern of your pattern of your life and for me having a stoma it it's just um it's just something i live with to be honest it's not going to stop me from doing whatever i want and swimming the channel is going to be one of those things i'll come back to that in just a moment i did think about your son um as i was reading your story and does he tell you how he feels about it, if it's okay to talk about it? Absolutely, yeah. Well, he actually overheard me doing an interview

a couple of years ago. And he said to me, so if you hadn't have had me, you wouldn't have your bag. And I said, that's right. And he said, so would you rather not have had me? Because then you wouldn't have had the bag. And I said, that's right. And he said, so would you rather not have had me? Because then you wouldn't have had the bag. And I said, absolutely not.

I will take you and the bag over not you and no bag any day of the week. And I said, and also, Sam, has that ever stopped me from doing anything I want to do? And he said, well, no, you're crazy. And then he went back to his PlayStation. So he's lived with it and he's seen that. I just crack on. And you have the conversation. I mentioned you have the audio series for BBC Sounds called The Stoma Swimmer released today.

I have a clip to play from the series. This is a conversation with the artist Tracy Emin, who also uses a stoma after treatment from bladder cancer. I think what you're doing and what other people are doing is just really brilliant in terms of saying there's lots of us here you're not on your own yeah exactly and you know you can still have a good life though you know we just make adaptions don't we my favorite thing is when I found out I had to have the urostomy stoma I said to him no I don't want it the most urgent you know I'm not having it anything anything but not having it not having, anything. But look, I'm not having it. I'm not having it. Anything. He said, well, there is one other option.

I went, right, I'll take it. I don't care what it is. I'll take it. I'll have that. And he said, you won't like it. I said, I don't care. He said, it's death. You know what?

I'll take the bag. And we were laughing. It's like, yeah, what would you rather have? And it's like anyone that's disgusted by me or disgusted by the urine or whatever and I was just thinking what would you prefer I'm dead given the choice that kind of sums it up doesn't it yeah yeah absolutely I mean at the end of the day you're only fitted with a stoma because it's going to either save your life or improve your life and for me it was saving me from a life of incontinence and for Tracy it was literally saving her life so I think you know if you are facing stoma surgery you've really got to look at the positives and the reason why you're going to have it and actually that it will improve your life in some way and I

just think Tracy's a real real shining example of that that she's really turned it on on its head and yeah she's just embracing life. And so are you so what are the challenges though because as i was mentioning you're the first uh woman who's doing this um what are you most concerned person actually oh person forgive me yeah the first person to do this no it's correct to uh correct that um what is the biggest challenge do you think you know what's different about swimming the channel as opposed to, I don't know, jumping out of a plane, for example? Well, jumping out of a plane is not to be recommended.

It's awful. So swimming the channel, well, with a stoma in particular, the issue that you've got, obviously, is that I've got my bowel, my living organ, outside my body. And yes, it is protected by a stoma bag, but nobody's that I've got my bowel, my living organ, outside my body. And yes, it is protected by a stoma bag, but nobody's ever swum, as far as I'm aware, this distance. I mean, it's 21 miles. It should take between 15 to 18 hours to do.

And this stoma bag might actually come off. And then will my bowel be affected by the salt water? Because when you are submerged in salt water for a significant period of time, the top layer of your tongue actually comes off. It's called salt mouth. And I was worried that the top layer of my bowel was going to be removed by the salt water. I have been assured by colorectal surgeons who specialize in this area of the body that the mucosa, so the atoms, I believe, for your stoma are different for your mouth.

But, well, I don't know. Nobody really knows, do they? So I am a bit of a guinea pig, an aquatic guinea pig. But I don't know. Someone's got to do it. Guinea pig. Someone's got to try it. The brave aquatic guinea pig.

Listen, we wish you all the best, Jill. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. You're an inspiration. And you can hear more about Jill's journey on BBC Sounds. Just search for the Stoma Swimmer. She will be the first person to swim the channel. And we know you'll do a great job. All the best, Jill.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks very much. We're talking about football at the beginning of the hour. I want to turn back to it because the Women and Equalities Committee, they published the responses they received from the football brands into why there are so few female specific football boots. You know, we've talked about that sometimes on Women's Hour. But among the replies, one company's remarks caught our eye. And this has to do with your feet, even if you're not

a footballer. They said that women's feet actually change dramatically during our lives. So an emerging hypothesis is that women's feet actually have five phases. You ready for this? Pre-puberty, adulthood, pregnancy, postpartum and postmenopause. So can you tell all about a woman's life through her feet? Emma McConachie is a podiatrist and spokesperson for the Royal College of Podiatry. Welcome, Emma. Hello, thank you for having me. I'm fascinated by this.

I mean, I talk about women's feet. Is this different to men's feet or do they also have five phases? I don't know, different phases. Men don't have the same number of phases as women because their bodies are different. So they don't have the same hormones at play. They don't have the same number of phases as women because they don't their bodies are different so they don't have the same hormones at play they don't have the same um changes so they men's feet are a sort of different ball game to women's feet um if you will but yeah there are set stages that a woman will go through in their life depending on how

their life journey goes will depend on you you know, if they experience all those stages, because of course not all women will bear children. So they won't have necessarily the same stages as a woman who does carry a child. What does pregnancy do then to the foot? So when pregnant, you are a giant big mashup of hormones. Your body is producing all different kinds of things to prepare you for the birth. And relaxin is one of the big hormones that will come up into play at that point, along with increases in progesterone and estrogen and things as well. Now, relaxin will allow your ligaments to stretch because, you know, there's an exit has to happen. So we need to prepare for that. And when you're pregnant as well, you're going to have a larger weight that you're carrying. Your weight distribution in your body will change as well.

Your centre of gravity is going to move forward. And all of these hormone changes can cause your feet to start to spread. Your ligaments and tendons in your feet can cause a lower arch profile. So we start to see women, you know, broader feet, sometimes longer feet as well as the arch goes down and some new kinds of pain that can come up too. And do they go back after the kid, having the child? Generally no. Some people yes they will be able to get some tightening up afterwards other people unfortunately it's going to stay. Things like wearing very unsupportive footwear during pregnancy doesn't help as well because you know you've got nothing to hold you up so everything's just squishing out a bit flatter so it's not unusual to go up a full shoe size during pregnancy and afterwards right so those old shoes they're

finished um we haven't really talked about high heels they're not as fashionable i guess perhaps now that they used to be so it might be different with women going forward i feel because bunions have often been a thing that i suppose have been exacerbated by high heels. But what about post-menopause? What happens to the feet then? Hormones again? Oh, so yes, menopause, another lovely pile of hormones for your body to now not have. So collagen will start to dissipate a little bit during the post-menopausal period. And that's really important for your muscles and ligaments. So it's again, not uncommon to see the foot start to widen, the arch will lower. Things like bunions become a lot more common because everything's a lot more

flexible and the fibros or fatty padding that's across the ball of your foot will start to fade out a little bit as well and that can cause a lot of foot changes. So things like heel pain and plantar fasciitis can become more common, changes to the shapes of your toes, bunion increases, foot pain, all these kind of things can come up as your hormones start to change post-menopausal. Is it all about supportive shoes? Shoes will help, yes. Correct footwear choices makes a big difference. But really, everybody's feet are different. Your left and right are going to be separate. And that's why we always say if you are getting foot pain, see a podiatrist, see the specialists, find out the cause of it for you, find out if it is your menopause, find out if it's something else that's why we always say if you are getting foot pain see a podiatrist see the specialists find out the cause of it for you find out if it is your menopause find out if it's something else

that's going on but the sooner we find out what's going on the quicker we can get a treatment plan in place for you and get you back to having some happy feet right happy feet like that let's talk about the skin of the feet as opposed to the structural components what changes so? So again, with the collagen changing, you can start to find that the quality of the skin is going to get poorer. So your skin might start to get a bit thinner. The arteries start to change as well and the blood supply can become a bit poorer. I mean, when I started my training 25 years ago, you would start to see ladies in their 80s, for example, we didn't have HRT as options for them. Radical hysterectomies were a bit more common.

I would see ladies in their 80s coming in and you could tell just by looking at their feet and legs that they had had a hysterectomy in their 20s or their 30s. Because that protective oestrogen had gone, you know, all these changes had happened before their body was ready. So you would start to see that thinner skin and that poorer blood supply. Luckily, that's not quite as common now, thanks to progressive changes in women's healthcare. But yeah, there's some big, big issues that can start to come up for women at that stage. And are these issues,

so whether it's somebody with much thinner skin or perhaps plantar fasciitis, I mean, are those things reversible at an older age? Not necessarily reversible, but manageable. So again, the sooner we see these things, the better lifestyle changes that we can make, the better advice we can give and things to watch out for. Luckily, injuries like plantar fasciitis, we can treat, we can manage, we can get rid of the pain. Sometimes it is just adjusting to your new body type and having to to learn how to cope with it all and the things that are going to work right for you so you mentioned spreading feet both in pregnancy

and post-menopause you mentioned supportive footwear um i mean should you be wearing footwear that i don't know encases your feet more i mean or should you just let them spread generally speaking i mean spreading's okay and say when you were wearing things like high heeled and pointed toes that was a bit more like having a corset for your foot and it's just accepting that you know your feet are going to change shape over time your body changes shape so why would your feet be any different and it's learning to adjust with that so in the same, like my glasses prescription isn't the same now as it was 10 years ago, my feet shape is not the same either. So it's sort of letting go of the fact that, well,

I bought these shoes 10 years ago, they should still fit me. If your feet are hurting in your shoes, know that you maybe need to get remeasured, you need to get refitted. Check and see your activity levels are different. We're wanting decent arch support, we want space across the ball of your foot, enough space for your toes to fit in the front of your shoe as well. And generally a way of it staying on your foot. So things like backless shoes can cause a lot more problems. So if you're looking at very unsupportive flip-flops, back away from them. We're going to look at some better shoes for you, please. I feel so sad that some of those shoes are going to be resigned to the dust bin of history. But there you go, Emma. You're telling us that's just going to be resigned to the dustbin of history.

But there you go, Emma. You're telling us that's just going to happen to us all. Emma McConnachie, thank you so much for spending some time with us. She's a podiatrist and a spokesperson for the Royal College of Podiatry.

So five phases. That's what we've got with our feet. Women, anyway. Well, maybe not as much if you haven't had kids. Right, tomorrow is VJ Day, which marks the surrender of Japan and therefore the end of World War II. Olga Henderson was 13 in

1945, starving in a camp in Singapore alongside other young internees. Now 91, Olga joins me to talk about her time in the camps recalled in her first book, and it's called In the Shadow of the Rising Sun. So I'm looking forward to speaking to her.

And we'll also discuss romanticising your life. It is a hashtag, of course. It's had more than 1.5 billion views and it aims to make you live your life as if you were the main character in a rom-com. Should we all be doing it? More on that tomorrow at 10. I hope you'll join me. Right, back to the henpocalypse. Watching my mum at my sister-in-law's hen do suck her non-alcoholic cocktail through a penis-shaped straw made me long for an apocalypse. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. I saw a footprint. I'm Andrew Benfield and I'm obsessed with the Yeti. The face looks like some kind of monkey. The idea of a Yeti-like creature has been around for centuries. But could it be real? In Yeti, a new 10-part series from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to try to find out.

I'll be joined by a good friend. You said we were going for a short walk across the valley. I'm Richard Horsey. This search isn't going to be easy. They have the ability to disappear. Are we chasing phantoms? Yeti, Jesus, you'll never find them. But in this series, we think we might.

Listen to Yeti on BBC Sounds. What's there? I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.