Woman's Hour - Women's innovation in tech; Working in retail; Valerie's Life in Shoes

Episode Date: December 1, 2020

Two of this year’s TechWomen100 Award winners join Jane to discuss getting more women and girls into the tech industries, including via a new app. June Angelides, an investor, speaker and mentor wh...o founded Mums in Tech has won the Editor’s Choice award. Rav Bumbra gets the Champion award for her work recruiting women to work in tech fields and mentoring schoolgirls.With non-essential retail due to open again tomorrow, we discuss the situation facing shop workers - many of whom are women - working in the UK's high street stores. Hastings shopkeeper Pratibha Paleja talks about the difficulties of dealing with frustrated customers and reports of shop workers being assaulted. Retail analyst Catherine Shuttleworth and Joanne Cairns, deputy head of research at the Union of Shop Distributive & Allied Workers discuss the wider issues facing women working in the sector, including the risk to jobs from the predicted collapse of the Arcadia group, and the reality of asking people to restrain their shopping in the run-up to Christmas.Listener Valerie tells the story of her adventurous life through a pair of shoes and two pairs of boots. She wore the boots while becoming the first British woman to summit Mount Manaslu, the trek shoes she bought for an Everest marathon and the fur-lined boots she wears when the temperature gets really low.How does it feel to reach the age your Mum was when she died? Jo Morris talks to four women who feel a clock ticking. Their stories are all different but they have one thing in common – none of them have felt able to talk about this before. They didn’t want to worry their loved ones or vocalise these dark thoughts. Titania is 44, her Mum died at 54 and her Gran at 64 and she feels she sees a pattern. Presenter - Jane Garvey Producer - Anna Lacey

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Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and oh great, it's nearly Christmas. It's the 1st of December 2020. Welcome to the programme. A dismal day, of course, if you work in retail and that's going to be our first subject this morning. A little bit later on, do you work in tech? Would you like to?
Starting point is 00:01:02 Perhaps you just need a nudge, a little bit of inspiration. Well, this morning, I can offer you exactly that in the form of two Tech Women 100 award winners, June Angelides and Rav Bumbra, who will talk to us on Women's Hour this morning. Looking forward to that. And another of our interviews about life in shoes, or actually in boots, in the case of our listener Valerie this morning who is a mountaineer she once got within 90 meters of the summit of Everest and then unfortunately she had to go back but we'll talk to Valerie a little bit later she's had many other successes I should say but that was just the thing that really struck me I thought on earth would that feel like to get so close
Starting point is 00:01:41 so Valerie on her boots a little bit later in the programme. First then to the situation on the high street. We know that non-essential shops will reopen in England tomorrow after the end of the second lockdown. We know too that thousands of jobs in the Arcadia Group are hanging in the balance. That's the likes of Burton, Dorothy Perkins, Wallace, Topshop of course,
Starting point is 00:02:02 the future of Debenhams, You heard it in the bulletin. Also in doubt, now JD Sports have pulled out of talks to buy it. 12,000 jobs at stake there. We probably don't need telling, but it's worth reminding you that 60% of the retail workforce is female. A total of about 2.9 million women work in it altogether. So there's a lot to get out here today. Not least, I really want to refer to the security of shop staff, what it's like to be on the retail front line at the moment. Not easy. And we're going to talk to one shopkeeper who has, well, felt the full force of a
Starting point is 00:02:38 particularly, well, on a number of occasions, idiotic customers, worse than idiotic, in her shop. There's also the question of how safe it is to go out shopping, how long you should be inside a shop. You might recall that Professor Lucy Yardley, a member of the SAGE advisory body, has said we should only spend 15 minutes inside a shop to keep ourselves as safe as we can. So a lot to get out here. We'll start with jobs and we'll talk to Catherine Shuttleworth, retail analyst and Joanne Cairns from the shop workers union, Usdoor. Catherine Shuttleworth, first of all, the situation on the face of it is utterly dire. Can you offer us any positivity at all this morning? Well, morning, Jane. You know, I've been studying retail since I was 18.
Starting point is 00:03:21 I went to university. I did a degree in retailing in 1985 and I've never felt quite so gloomy as I do this morning about the future of retail you know the news about Debenhams is just devastating isn't it you know 12,000 people working for Debenhams about another 13,000 working for Arcadia all those jobs in the balance and and to give some context that's the same size as the fishing industry in the uk so at the moment there's lots of debate about fishing brexit it's really important just two retailers are as big as that whole industry and that gives you some idea of how critical the things that are happening on the high street are at the moment um so i don't want to feel gloomy i want to find a kind of positive gas of light but it's very very difficult to see how we're going to reinvent our high streets in such
Starting point is 00:04:13 a way where you know commerce as a whole still plays a big part of it um at a time when for a lot of people today you know their careers are in effect in this sector over. And for women in particular, that's devastating news. I'm sure it really will be. If anybody wants to contact the programme on this subject or any other this morning, our text number is 84844, 84844. On social media, we are, of course, at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email the programme via our website. Joanne Cairns, your members in
Starting point is 00:04:46 Usdor, how are they feeling this morning, would you say? Well it's been an absolutely terrible week for retail workers with the announcements about Arcadia and Debenhams and there's never a good time for announcements like this but coming right before Christmas and after such a very, very tough year in retail, it's particularly devastating. So we think we're looking at about 200,000 job losses in the retail sector this year, which is just unprecedented, really. What about your members who have been involved in the most recent lockdown, people who work in non-essential shops?
Starting point is 00:05:24 How were they paid and what were they paid during the last month or so? So within some of our agreements, we're in unionised workplaces. We've been able to negotiate full pay for members who have been affected by the lockdown. But of course, lots of workplaces are not unionised and they'll be on 80% of their pay. And we're talking about people who are already very low paid to begin with. So this will be bringing them down to, in many cases, 20% below the minimum wage. And of course, any of your members, well, you can tell me, were you involved with Debenhams? Have you got members in there?
Starting point is 00:06:01 We do have members in Debenhams, yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's every chance unfortunately they won't be going back to work again. Yeah and you know I think as Catherine said it's another example really of women bearing the brunt of the crisis because it is a predominantly female workforce and in Arcadia for example I think the latest figures that they produced on their gender breakdown showed that 82% of people working for them are women. Many of them will be young women. And, you know, these are low paid workers who are already in a really difficult situation and now they're facing even worse. What about the suggestion that some shops will be open 24 hours a day, Joanne, in the run up to Christmas.
Starting point is 00:06:46 Might that be something that your members could cling to as a way of earning some extra money? Well, I mean, we think that the announcement about extending opening hours is really, it's insignificant comparison to the huge crisis that's facing the high street. What we are asking employers to do is to make sure that if they are going to operate longer hours, that they ensure those hours are staffed by volunteers, because a lot of our members are already under an awful lot of pressure this time of year, in the run up to Christmas, and already quite overstretched. So we would ask them to make sure that they're staffed either by volunteers or by recruitment. And so people who do want those extra hours will be able to get them, but we don't want anybody to be put under pressure to do that. Catherine Shuttleworth,
Starting point is 00:07:34 is that an answer, 24-hour opening? It's a sticking plaster in the short term. I mean, you know, for example, Primark have announced they're going to open 11 stores 24 hours a day. But the reality is not very many people want to go shopping at three o'clock in the morning. It's not very safe. It's not easy to get in and out of stores. And most of us are asleep at that time, aren't we? You know, the supermarkets used to be open 24 hours a day and they stopped doing it because people weren't shopping those hours. And I know we're in unprecedented times, but I read an an article yesterday by Robert Jenrick who's made this decision he would appear all by himself from the way he wrote yesterday saying I have worked out there's lots of red tape around retail and I
Starting point is 00:08:13 am going to lift the hours well it's going to need something a lot bigger than 24-hour trading in December and January but the reality is we can shop 24 hours a day anyway can't we online on our mobile phones. That's what I was going to get to, obviously. I mean, putting all sentiment aside. And obviously we do feel for people losing their jobs. It's awful, particularly right now. But the high street is changing because we, the consumer, has changed. It's no good me weeping and wailing about the high street and then going home and spending money online. Absolutely. And we get very nostalgic about brands.
Starting point is 00:08:51 And in our last 24 hours, we've said that these are big brands. But, you know, we can shop online. It's really easy. If you like, the pandemic has pushed us into shopping online even better. And it's funny when we talk about non-essential retail. I mean, really, apart from food, nothing's become essential, has it? Because we've been able to shop online very successfully in every single age group, we've got used to it. And so there's kind of no turning back to go back to a high street that we had 20 years ago, we've got to accept it's going to be different. And it's going to look different. I think the challenge really is how do we work together to make a sustainable high street for the future.
Starting point is 00:09:23 And think about local retail as well. Because if there is a sort of array of sunshine amongst this gloom what I would say is that working from home has made us stay closer to our local high streets and small high and some retailers are really thriving in that environment and let's hope we can see more entrepreneurs setting up retail businesses. Joanne what do you do in the short term to help your members, your members at Debenhams and indeed who work for Arcadia? So we'll be doing everything that we possibly can to support those members. We'll be making contact with the administrators and trying to get some updates on what's being done to save jobs and obviously any members who need advice we would encourage them to get some updates on what's being done to save jobs. And obviously any members who need advice, we would encourage them to get in contact with us.
Starting point is 00:10:10 And, you know, we really do hope that buyers are found for some or part of those businesses. But do you acknowledge the retail reality, the 21st century reality, which is that for all of us who might well feel sentiment towards the likes of Debenhams, we weren't going in and spending money there. Well, I think there's certainly been huge challenges facing retail and a lot of that has been exacerbated, obviously, during the coronavirus crisis because of lockdown and also because of reduced footfall in general and even when shops are open because people just are not going out shopping as much um but really you
Starting point is 00:10:52 know i think the government's got a choice to make um and as a society we've got a choice to make do we want to see our high streets go to the wall or do we want to make them thrive and survive after this crisis is over? And really, there needs to be a proper recovery strategy for retail. We shouldn't be writing these jobs off. Of course, the sector is changing and we need to adapt to those changes. But at the same time, there's a lot that needs to be done to create more of a level playing field between online and high street retail as well. Do you feel there is a gender bias here, genuinely, perhaps at the heart of government, that yes, fishing gets all sorts of attention for a multitude of reasons we all know very well,
Starting point is 00:11:36 connected to Brexit, for example, but there isn't the same interest in or enthusiasm for retail, Joanne? Well, this is something that we've been raising for a long time, that there needs to be a proper industrial strategy for retail. And, you know, whenever the government talks about industrial strategy, it is always about making things and building things. And retail, as a sector that employs 3 million people, it is often overlooked. And, you know, a lot of that probably is rooted in some assumptions that people make about retail jobs being a stopgap, being something, you know, that people do for some extra cash, particularly mums. And actually, the reality is that retail jobs put food on the tables for millions of families, and they're absolutely
Starting point is 00:12:22 essential to the economy. Are you concerned about the notion that shoppers are being, in some cases, told that just 15 minutes inside a store is the only safe length of time? What do you think about that, Joanne, and what does that say about your members? Well, I mean, this isn't something that we're aware of any shops actually implementing as a policy. I know the advice is that if you're in contact for 15 minutes, that's the length of time that the contact tracing people work to.
Starting point is 00:12:58 But actually, the most important thing for people to do when they're shopping is to maintain a two metre distance from others. And that's what we ask shoppers to do for however long you're in the shop and of course to make sure that you wear a face covering um and you know that's where we need to be focusing our efforts to to make christmas shopping trips safe of course people are going to want to browse and you know especially at this time of year when the shops reopen um but i do think people will be probably planning their shopping trips a bit more carefully than normal and, you know, trying to shop as efficiently and sensibly as they can. And we would encourage people to do that. Sure. Well, we'll get on to safety in a moment or two with
Starting point is 00:13:33 our next guest. Joanne, thank you very much. Here's an interesting contribution from a listener called Jenny. I'm an ex-top shop head of buying. I'm devastated by the news, but not remotely surprised. The business has had no investment. There was no strategy. Most of the business within Arcadia hasn't made a profit for years. What upsets me most is the lack of accountability and responsibility. Those that pay the price are the employees. It's sickening. That's the view of Jenny, who used to work for Topshop.
Starting point is 00:14:01 You can contact the programme on text 84844. Social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Pratibha Pelajar runs a news agency in Hastings. Good morning and welcome to the programme, Pratibha. How are you today? Good morning, I'm fine, thanks. Good, thank you very much. Now, you've run that shop for what, over 30 years, haven't you? Yeah, 32 years. Right. And do you detect a change in the way customers are behaving? Are they getting, frankly,
Starting point is 00:14:30 more aggressive in the way they treat you and your colleagues? It's a little bit changed because people are frustrated and agitated because of lockdown and restriction in life.
Starting point is 00:14:46 And I think they don't like to wait in a queue and sometimes they get really, they don't have the patience to wait. It's just something is there which affects mentally being in lockdown. What is the worst thing that's happened to you, Pratipa? Shoplifter and some of the abusers. It's a challenge for us, you know, all the time. But I think lately there's a shoplifter comes and they threaten with a knife and uh that that was really hard for me you know because my children are worried about it and they want me to
Starting point is 00:15:34 leave this uh job uh this business but uh i love working in a shop you know it's like a my life there you know all my life i've worked in a shop uh and um i can't i don't want to give up but um because of these people they're very abusive threatening the knife and it's uh uh not safe sometimes i feel that being they think being a woman uh they're gonna you know i'm weak but uh i always show them that they are i'm tough and i i stand up for abuser but um in time like this you know it make you think is it uh should i carry on or should i give up i'm sure it does and um i've no doubt you are very courageous but i also understand why your family are worried for you.
Starting point is 00:16:25 And it goes without saying, but I will say anyway, of course, you shouldn't have to put up with that kind of behaviour. It's awful. So at no time, Pratibha, have you thought about packing it in? You're determined to keep going. Yes, I'd like to. I'd like to. But at the moment, my husband is suffering from dementia and i had a fall so he's a disabled so i have a responsibility towards him as well so i might but you know i'm gonna i try to arrange
Starting point is 00:16:54 something with the carer if i can continue i'll continue working till uh i can't do it physically i can't do it yes Well I imagine that with your caring responsibilities it's rather good occasionally to get out of the house and to go back to the shop Look, so many people at Pratiba will be grateful for the service you provide and thank you very much for talking to us and take care
Starting point is 00:17:18 Thank you Pratiba Pallagio runs a news agency in Hastings, has done so for over 30 years. Catherine Shuttleworth, I hope you're still there. I mean, that sort of thing, it makes your blood boil. But I'm afraid it is a reality, isn't it, for some shop owners? Yeah, what an amazing woman. Yeah, I think this is one of the new realities facing frontline retail workers who, let's be honest, aren't on the biggest wages.
Starting point is 00:17:45 They certainly aren't sitting on yachts in Monaco that are dealing every day with more and more aggressive shoppers or people that are coming into their stores that want to steal money from them. And there's a big campaign at the moment in the retail industry spearheaded by the co-op to really shine a light on this issue. And it's a huge issue. And what I'd say is, you know, but a few months ago, we were talking about retail workers being the sort of next emergency service. And in the first lockdown, they were hailed as heroes.
Starting point is 00:18:13 And it's ironic now that we're having these conversations about how we keep people safe. I think we need to remember that these jobs aren't always easy. And I think that's where you talked about gender bias before. I think there's a lack of understanding,
Starting point is 00:18:29 certainly in the government and economic strategy, about what these jobs really are about, where they are, what they're like, and the risks that people take doing them. Well, yeah, I think that perhaps the temptation might be to think, oh, yeah, you just spend a couple of hours chatting with your mates in the shop. I mean, if only. It's just not like that, is it?
Starting point is 00:18:52 Absolutely not. And these, you know, retail jobs are good jobs, but they're hard work. And I think there is a real naivety about what they're like. And there is a whiff of sexism about it, isn't there? There's a whiff of, oh, well, it's pin money and, you know, people just do this to fill a few hours in. Absolutely not. These are really important jobs that, as John said, put meals on the table and are important careers. And still one of the great things in retail. I mean, you know, Tony Hoggett, who runs Tesco in the UK, started as a shelf stacker. You know, you can start at the bottom and work your way up and they can provide brilliant, brilliant careers. And we need to remember that, I think.
Starting point is 00:19:27 Can I just bring in some of the comments from the listeners? I'm afraid we have to come to terms with the fact that the old retail model belongs in the past. We cannot continue to consume as we used to. Small and local is the answer. There's never an excuse for abusive behaviour towards shop workers, however. Well, no, certainly not. Another point here. the fate of the Arcadia Group affects many more people than those employed in the shops. Their suppliers of garments
Starting point is 00:19:51 and further down the chain, those who source and supply the fabrics, etc, will also largely now go bankrupt. Another one here, my wife's closest friend has worked in a senior management role in Debenhams for over 20 years. Unfortunately, the severe lack of investment and misguided top level market strategy is behind their downfall, says Michael in Nottingham. And Anne says, all very well going on about shopping online. Recently, I paid £7.90 postage for a cardigan. That's £3.95 to send it to me and £3.95 to return it because it didn't match up to what was shown in the catalogue and Anne makes a point there Catherine that actually we talk about online shopping being super convenient well it can be but it doesn't always
Starting point is 00:20:35 work out for the individual does it? No and I think you have to get smart and learn how to do it well and younger shoppers are much better online shopping than anybody else but you know what I would say is make sure you try never to pay for delivery wherever possible and certainly not for returns make sure you read the small print but it but it's interesting isn't it all those different comments about retail and you're right we can't look backwards we have to we have to move forwards but I do think as we go into Christmas which should be the biggest time of year for retail it's a time when we really are reflecting on how we transact with retailers what that's going to look like our future is going to be massively online there's no question about it but we've got to think about what we want in our town centres and what we want to live our lives
Starting point is 00:21:21 and how we're going to do it. Yeah really fascinating thank you very much for your contribution Catherine Shuttleworth retail analyst we also heard earlier from Joanne Cairns from and what we want to live our lives and how we're going to do it. Yeah, really fascinating. Thank you very much for your contribution. Catherine Shuttleworth, retail analyst. We also heard earlier from Joanne Cairns from Usdor and Pratibha Pralajar who runs her shop in Hastings. Keep your comments coming in because I know a lot of people are very interested in this. 84844 on the text, at BBC Women's Hour on social media.
Starting point is 00:21:41 Now, we did talk about pensions on the programme yesterday and the suggestion that some of you, some married women, some divorced and widowed women may have been underpaid their state pensions. This is so important, this. If you missed that on that, missed on the conversation, then go to the page on the Woman's Hour website for yesterday's programme and you'll get all the links there if you think it might be something that could impact you. Tomorrow, Krupa Paddy is here presenting the programme. She'll discuss evil women. And Professor Joanna Burke will talk about the myth of the evil queen.
Starting point is 00:22:12 That's on the programme tomorrow. Later on today, here on Radio 4, how are you making Christmas special this year? Ho, ho, ho. Call you and yours with Winifred Robinson. Winifred wants to hear from you, and you can talk to her live on Radio 4 at around about a quarter past twelve today
Starting point is 00:22:28 how are you making Christmas special this year we are having a Christmas Day edition of Woman's Hour, we're talking this year about what brings you joy so if you can tell us via the website what does bring you joy we would love to hear from you we're particularly keen, or I'm particularly keen to talk to people
Starting point is 00:22:44 let's face it, they are women, called Joy. If you're a Christmas Joy, let us know, please. Contact the programme via our website. Now, let's talk tech in the company of two of this year's Tech Women 100 award winners. They are best friends as well, which is brilliant. June Aljalides, MBE, an investor, speaker and a mentor who founded Mums in Tech. Welcome to you, June. Thank you. And brilliantly, June is in the studio with me, socially distanced and wearing what your Christmas dress.
Starting point is 00:23:12 I am indeed. I am fully sparkled for you, Jane. I don't think I don't appreciate. We'll have a cocktail or two a bit later. Just imagine if we could. And Rav Bumbra won the Champion Award for her work recruiting women to work in tech and mentoring schoolgirls. She started her own business, Structured People, back in 2015. And Rav, you are a really good friend of June's. How did you two meet exactly? Oh, we were introduced by a friend of Rav's actually back in 2015.
Starting point is 00:23:38 I think only a few months after I started Mums in Tech. And he said to Rav to give me a call. And that was the best call I have ever had. We've been best friends since. Is that true, Rav? It is. I'm missing out on you guys sat in the studio there.
Starting point is 00:23:53 Oh, we miss you. Yes, it was actually, Jane. I went to a networking event. And they can be very scary. So I met a guy called Chris Leighton there. And he said, you're going to get on really well with my friend, a lady that I know, come across, come across Jean Angelides I phoned her that night on the train
Starting point is 00:24:09 yeah and we've talked ever since almost every day literally and we've both gone on our entrepreneurial journeys together it's it's just been wonderful to share the ups and downs of our journeys together well I don't really know where to start with you two, because I think it's so important to get your wisdom out there. And number one thing, I think, is to prioritise getting women into tech. It's as simple as that. But I guess it's the point at which you start thinking about it. So let's focus on schoolgirls. Rav, what do you need at, say, GCSE that will help you to a career in tech or doesn't it matter? It doesn't matter I mean it does matter and it doesn't matter if you look at the future of work 80% of all jobs will require STEM skills so it's really important we start demystifying what STEM means to girls in
Starting point is 00:24:58 schools and I think there's that misconception of tech is for boys. Tech has an image problem. And the other thing is the tech industry. It's more wider than that now. Technology is being used across all businesses. It's a foundation. And I think when you come out of COVID, you would have realised that tech is now a disruptor and an innovator. We're seeing so many companies being formed this year. And it's really exciting to see what's going to be happening next year and how it's all evolving and making our world easier. I suppose cynically I might suggest that most of those companies have been formed by men, many of them with brilliant contacts and loads of family money. Would that be fair, Rav? I don't think so. you go out there and talk uh amongst the female tech communities you'll see a lot of women who
Starting point is 00:25:46 were um hustling side jobs you know um just thinking about opening up a business a small business and thinking about scaling it up we're hearing a lot more of that come out now it's very interesting companies you know people are actually looking at things like um you know bringing the social element into it too you know how can we start to use tech to solve world problems, things like poverty, climate change, homelessness. So you're really starting to bring your passion into the tech world now as well. June, tell us, first of all, how you started Mums in Tech. What inspired you? Was it after you've got three children, haven't you?
Starting point is 00:26:18 I have. I actually started it on my second maternity leave. So I was two months in. What was your job before you went on maternity leave? I I was two months in. And what was your job before you went on maternity leave? I was on the venture debt team at Silicon Valley Bank. So you're already in the business? I was. But strangely enough, you know, we're doing the finance things. And I didn't know the ins and outs of coding. I actually didn't know what coding languages were. And I wanted to challenge myself on my time off. I wanted to learn a bit more about the types of businesses we were
Starting point is 00:26:43 investing in. And I thought, well, why don't I learn to code? And I wanted to learn a bit more about the types of businesses we were investing in. And I thought, well, why don't I learn to code? And I tried to find resources to learn and did a couple of online courses, but very quickly realized that I wanted to learn with other people. And I challenged myself. I said, I'm going to set something up for mothers. It is worth saying for anyone who's outside this world, and I'm one of those people, that you can do online coding courses. Absolutely. There's resources like Codecademy. Are they free or do you pay for those? They're free. They're free. But I had loads of questions and it was really tricky.
Starting point is 00:27:15 There were points where I got stuck and I wanted to have an experience with a teacher. And there weren't any courses I could go to with a baby. And I just realized that we hadn't been factored in. No one had thought that perhaps we might want to learn something. And to be honest, I could have learned anything. And I was very conscious I wanted to go back into the workplace with more confidence than I had my first mat leave. So I set up a pilot where we would go into tech companies and convert their meeting rooms into a classroom in a crash. And incredibly had the engineering teams at companies like Marks & Spencer offer up their teams to teach us over eight weeks.
Starting point is 00:27:55 You make that sound so simple. You can't just get on the phone to Marks & Spencer. It was over Twitter. I sent a tweet. I said, can I come in? I turned up with my two kids. I had no choice. I had a tweet. I said, can I come in? I turned up with my two kids. I had no choice, had no child care.
Starting point is 00:28:10 And for me, that was actually a great litmus test in seeing how welcoming they were going to be. And they were incredibly welcoming. And we, yeah, we would turn up every week with 15 moms and 15 babies with nannies, you know, to look after the kids and learn something new each week. Just really demystifying tech, like what Rav was saying, making it less intimidating, learning with other amazing women, learning with teachers who are doing this job day to day. Okay. And over the course of the years that Mums in Tech ran, and I know it's not a thing anymore, unfortunately, although I know you still mentor. How many women did you help? And what did they go on to do? Yeah, we taught over 250 women over three years, worked with 12 corporates. And some of them have gone on to start their own businesses. Again, some came along to the program because they didn't know how to approach
Starting point is 00:28:55 developers. They weren't confident in starting to code on their own. And some of them have gone on to work in tech companies where perhaps they may not have applied before, but felt that actually they've learned enough. They can prove that they can learn anything. It's that confidence to say, look, I've got what it takes. I've got the baseline and I can learn on the job. But putting yourself out there. Rav, you, I know, specialize now in recruitment, don't you? Yes. Well, I used to do recruitment.
Starting point is 00:29:24 It's still part of the business, but I focus more on diversity now. So going into organisations to talk to them about their diversity agenda and why it really matters for business. Okay. And when you first go into a business, how welcoming are they in terms of, well, admitting their own presumably relative lack of diversity? How do those conversations go? It's a difficult one because I think people are scared of quotas that, you know, they've got this male dominated team. Are people going to start to lose their jobs because they've been set these quotas to bring women into the organisation? So it's really making them aware of what diversity would mean to their business, how it can drive innovation, how it can be great for productivity and increase performance. But it's not just at entry level, you're looking at all the way through the organisation. For instance, if you have
Starting point is 00:30:15 your board and it represents 30% of female sitting on the board, it increases your productivity and performance by 40%. So once they understand how diversity can be good for their business and drive competitiveness, I think they understand why they need to set a diversity agenda. And it has to start from the top. It has to start from the senior executive team. Yeah, it's a brutal business. You're about making money and you'll make more money
Starting point is 00:30:41 if you're more diverse, end of. I mean, you've convinced me just in that sense. I mean, I'm not in business. But I mean, when you heard our earlier conversation about retail, in a way, what does that make you think, Rav, that conversation about? Because there are so many women involved in retail and you really feel for them right now. But is there a part of you that just thinks, well, that's the past and we're the future? Or am I being, am I too harsh? Oh, do you know what? Jane, there's so many opportunities for women go on and tell tell us
Starting point is 00:31:09 honestly when you so when you look at the tech industry itself it's um it's it doesn't discriminate you can come from any background um you've everyone's got transferable skills so you know take a look at your cv and if you have a job description in front of you, just see what you can do. Highlight the pieces that you can do and then highlight the ones that you can't do, but maybe you can get some training in. And I will always say to women that, you know, if you want to apply for a job, go for it. Get to that interview stage and be open and have that discussion of these are the skills I have got, but I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to train, I'm willing to invest in myself. But the retail industry has got so many transferable skills, definitely to move into the tech industry.
Starting point is 00:31:53 Yeah, so you shouldn't write yourself off because you've been public facing, haven't you, if you have worked in retail? And I guess that is that. You're absolutely right. That is a skill set that you can take somewhere else. June, was there ever a time in your life when you haven't gone for something because you you not felt qualified you mean look we've known each other since literally 10 to 10 but you do you do strike me as being a very um outward going and and positive person or is there self-doubt lurking oh my god all the time i work with a coach and i have done since march but
Starting point is 00:32:26 you know prior to starting mums and heck i was very very shy and i wouldn't put myself forward for things but i think it's really down to mindset and i think i had this realization after i had my second child that you know as my mentor would say cavalry is not coming to save us. We need to... That sounds a bit Boris Johnson-esque. You need to take ownership and I think also ask for help. That sense of vulnerability, and this is where I think mentors are super important. So I decided I was going to keep learning. And thankfully, the government actually announced that they've made the skills toolkit available. So all the retail workers,
Starting point is 00:33:05 I'd encourage them to check that out because actually that's a good way of learning new and soft skills. I think that's something we don't talk about enough. You know, we go back to the confidence and learning how to present yourself, that personal branding, what Rab talked about, transferable skills, really writing it down, all those things you're great at.
Starting point is 00:33:23 We forget to write our little list down. It's so important. You have your app, Rav, which I want to talk about too. I know that June is actually the literal face of your app. You really are good friends. This is about reaching school pupils, isn't it? But how does that work? Yeah, so Kajigo is a dual app that provides mentoring and support to girls and women. So we have an over 18s and under 18s platform. But in schools, it's used as a blended learning programme. So we go in and do a bespoke programme, so that one-to-one mentoring in a school environment, talking to young girls about demystifying STEM careers, what does a tech career look like for them, and get them to do a hackathon,
Starting point is 00:34:06 you know, talk about what they see as the problems in life, and how would they solve it using technology. What we find is that we actually start to link technology to their passions. And once you start doing that, they can actually see that route in so they can navigate that pathway and understand then why they need to study those STEM subjects. But the Kajigo app then gives them mentoring and support for a further five years. So to get them to that stage where they get into university. So we try and aim the programme at year eight and year nine in schools. Right. Brilliant. Well, it's really, really exciting and just positive. Positive. For some reason, I just couldn't say that.
Starting point is 00:34:45 To talk to you both this morning, particularly after our first conversation, because we know that life is really, really tough for so many women in particular in that sector, in the retail sector at the moment. So I hope you've enthused a couple of people listening at least. Thank you both very much. Thank you so much. Rav and June. Thanks to you, June, for coming in and looking like a Christmas party guest.
Starting point is 00:35:06 Yay, thank you. Just what I needed. Now, oh, we've got some positivity coming your way from a listener who says, listening to the women talking about tech, helping mums develop careers, feeling so inspired by these two impressive women. There you go. That's absolutely in front of me there, just piping hot off our social media feed. Thank you to that listener.
Starting point is 00:35:27 I just wanted to mention we are talking next week about things that have happened in toilets, women's toilets. We know, listen, all human life is on Women's Hour, as you know. We know that stuff happens in women's toilets and we're asking you to share some of your stories. And you have been emailing in your droves. But there was a really good one here listener called Judith a couple of years ago even before she was on Britain's Got Talent there was one particular week when every time I turned the television on Amanda Holden appeared she was on This Morning, Loose Women, The One Show, you name it she was on it that weekend having survived the week I went to a restaurant with friends and I went to the loo and who do you think came in?
Starting point is 00:36:06 Only Amanda Holden. I involuntarily exclaimed, oh my God, it's you again. I can't get away from you this week. She said, I know. Terrible, isn't it? We had a good giggle and returned to our tables. I think Amanda has a well-developed sense of humour, so she won't have find it. Judith, thank you very much for that.
Starting point is 00:36:22 At BBC Women's Out on social media now you've been telling us um something about your life through the prism of your footwear over the last couple of weeks and Valerie is our next guest um and this is a really good one because her footwear is well it's it's more sort of it's work wear it's mountain wear effectively um Valerie good morning good morning Jane now you sent us an image of your very sturdy boots. They're very important to you. So tell us about your life, what you do and where you wear your boots. My name's Valerie and I've spent probably the last 34 years mostly in the Himalaya,
Starting point is 00:36:59 leading treks and expeditions and biking trips. And my boots, my life is actually lived in boots the largest pair are my climbing boots my high altitude boots which I've used on several expeditions in the Himalaya mostly and my other boots are my snow leopard boots I lead a trip every year in Ladakh tracking snow leopards on foot. So it's snowy and I need the big boots for that. At the moment, though, you are,
Starting point is 00:37:33 I was going to say marooned in Wiltshire, but you are in Wiltshire, which I know is not necessarily the place you'd like to be. You were looking out at the fluffy Wiltshire clouds this morning, weren't you? And dreaming of more exotic climbs, think I was yes yes yes I live in Wiltshire um it's very green here um I spend probably about half my life in in the Himalaya so I was my my job obviously has come to a standstill at the moment until travel comes back. But I was longing for Ladakh, which
Starting point is 00:38:06 is a small part of the Indian Himalaya, right in the northern part of India. Probably my second home. I spend about three or four months of the year in Ladakh. Which boots were you wearing when, as I said at the beginning of the programme, you got so close to the summit of Everest? Just tell us about that. I was wearing the biggest pair of boots, the Everest summit boots. I attempted Everest in 2009. It was a present to myself. I was 50 in 2009, and it was a present to myself. The previous year, I'd climbed Mount Manaslu,
Starting point is 00:38:43 which is the eighth highest mountain on Earth. And surprisingly, I got to the summit and became the first woman to summit Manaslu without the use of oxygen. And I thought doing that would get it out of my system. I do it once, do an 8,000-meter peak. But I realized and I learned that getting out of it doesn't get it out. Success does not get it out of your system. It just makes you want to do more. So I attempted Everest, got within nine to the bottom of the Hillary step, 90 meters from the summit.
Starting point is 00:39:14 Unfortunately, on summit day, we had an Everest drama and it was better to turn back. It's a very hard decision to make, but the summit will still be there for another day. And at least I'm here, I can carry on with my life and do the things that I love still. I can't let that reference to an Everest drama go, I'm afraid. What happened? The person I was within our team that day, his eyes froze um and we were in the long queue and um it was just safest we were a bit late our there was problem with our oxygen the oxygen was running out if i'd have gone up the hill every step my oxygen would have run out and i wouldn't have had enough to come down so it was just the more sensible although very disappointing decision to turn back at that point
Starting point is 00:40:06 I think I'm glad I asked that question but it's certainly um wow it really concentrates the mind when you put it like that but what what a time in your life with you and your colleague having to make that decision do you do you go back to that that time in your life a lot, Valerie, or do you just press on? Oh, often I think about it. And it's very easy when you're at sea level to say, why didn't I do it? Why didn't I do it? It's very different. Your mind's not working straight then.
Starting point is 00:40:38 And, you know, I think about it a lot. I take a lot of people on treks up different peaks to Everest Base Camp and sometimes people don't make it and we have discussions. It's fine not to make it. It might be your dream, but it's better to come back and do it
Starting point is 00:40:57 another time. I did get frostbite. I lost some bits of my toes, but I can still do everything that I love I can still trek bike run walk and I'm here yeah and that's much more important yes you yes absolutely um tell us about is there another pair of boots you haven't discussed forgive me I got so lost in that moment there that I've slightly lost track of the boot conversation but carry on my third pair was the pair of running shoes I was supposed to do the Everest marathon lead an Everest marathon
Starting point is 00:41:31 trip this year on the 29th of May which is the the date that Tenzing and Hillary summited Everest unfortunately due to the pandemic that was cancelled I did run my marathon here in Wiltshire. I did the 26 miles close to home, five little circuits of the route round my home. So I have run a marathon and I hope to do it in 2021 on the 29th of May. I seem to be speaking to a lot of women this week. We talked to Pip Hare, who's doing the round the world sailing race yesterday. And I just come away just thinking, you know, I'm happy if I've morning. And it's interesting that a couple of listeners recognised her because they'd been on one of her treks. This is from Claire. How wonderful to hear Valerie. She was our guide on a trek around Annapurna back in 1987. She was
Starting point is 00:42:36 knowledgeable, fabulously calm with the tourists and compassionate to the porters doing all the hard work, e.g. making sure they had snow goggles, which the travel company, interestingly, did not provide. Right. And I'm not surprised to discover that plenty of you wanted to know the conclusion of the frozen eyeball story. Well, we rang Valerie after the broadcast programme went out, because now we're in podcast land,
Starting point is 00:43:04 and the good news is he's fine and his eyeballs are defrosted. And even as I say that, I'm just thinking. Anyway, he was okay. I should have asked. Another failure of what passes for my journalism, but sometimes time is against us, she said, covering our tracks. Now, loads of great emails from you uh this morning mostly on the subject of retail this is anonymous
Starting point is 00:43:32 i want to keep my job says this person who is in the south of england i think that's all i'll say i work at the so-called posh supermarket you know the one and the majority of customers are lovely however we do experience the others who really have lost the plot. I think everybody should spend three months working in a service job and then perhaps they'd realise that the person behind the checkout bringing their tea and cake, changing the sheets on the bed, are humans as well. It surprises me how some, and I regret to say mostly female customers, think it's appropriate to belittle employees in front of their own children, therefore confirming that service providers are beneath contempt.
Starting point is 00:44:27 Rather naughtily, I try to find a way of slipping into the conversation that I'm an original shareholder in the posh tonic company and i play bridge i don't know how you slip that in but yeah i just did that that's a wonderful email thank you for that um it just i don't know i i i have many faults but i i don't think i would ever dream of being rude to anybody in a supermarket who was doing a job and i don't think I know anyone who would ever behave that way either. It's so, so depressing to hear that some people think it's all right. This from Mick in Grimsby. It'll be the shop assistants who'll be dropping with 24-hour opening. What terrible news for all shop workers. Do they not also have lives? Anyone who's had the misfortune to witness the madness
Starting point is 00:45:00 that is already late-night shopping in shopping centres and streets throughout the country will surely despair at the fate of those who will bear the brunt of this madness. Who else is going to benefit from this move apart from wealthy business owners who will doubtless be tucked up in their PJs sipping a G&T from a safe distance while browsing online offers? Thank you for that. This from a listener who says, I went into Debenhams in Bath for the first time in years and I was actually shocked at how awful all the clothes were and the layout.
Starting point is 00:45:35 It was like a motorway services. Even Miss Selfridge was awful. There was nothing attractive for young people or older. Miss Selfridge used to be cutting edge as did Topshop and other Arcadia shops. I also went into a Topshop and the other similar stores in Bath and I couldn't believe how generic it all was. All the stuff exactly the same, just rows of skinny skinny black jeans. I used to work in fashion, I've got a degree from St Martin's and I know from work placements that these clothes and stores are symptomatic of poor cheap production abroad easy generic styles
Starting point is 00:46:11 all designed and made by the same people the textiles used are more reliant on petrochemical fibers also for cheapness all in all it creates a soup of poor quality, generic clothing that is boring. From Linda, I wish presenters would stop saying we're all shopping online now. Not everyone is able to or wishes to. I prefer not to unless absolutely necessary, however secure they claim to be. I'll continue to go to physical shops, especially once this emergency has ended. It's not possible for me to do my food shopping in 15 minutes. I go very early on a Friday morning before it gets busy, as I'm over 65 and my husband is 75, with various health conditions.
Starting point is 00:46:58 I went to a local garden centre last week, mainly to get some bird food and some plants, and honestly, you wouldn't have known we were still in lockdown. I have to admit that as they Yes, thank you for that. Interestingly, I've actually heard myself that garden centres are allowed, obviously allowed to open and selling all sorts of stuff. Yeah, you're not the first person to have mentioned that. And actually, Linda, from a personal point of view, although I know I do say everyone shops online, I love, I mean, I'm not a massive shopper because I'm in and out usually in a, well, under an hour if I can help it. But I would always personally prefer to go and shop. I like the physical contact with the goods
Starting point is 00:47:47 I'm buying I like to feel the clothes and I actually just like to chat to people in shops I just want to be out there Natalie in Liverpool says it's obvious tax the likes of Amazon tax online buying they don't pay rates no overheads level the playing field or we'll all be stuck in our homes, bound to our screens with town centres becoming wastelands. From Leslie. Another drawback of online clothes shopping. I've heard that returns cannot be sold and often contribute to landfill. Very bad in numerous ways for our planet. Leslie, yes, we've discussed that on the programme in the past.
Starting point is 00:48:26 I think we've asked whether that is true, whether returns cannot be sold. And I think it was actually very difficult to find an answer to that. I know people believe that on the whole, stuff that is sent back cannot be resold. But I know we've tried to find out and it's actually rather difficult to know.
Starting point is 00:48:42 I know it's something that we've discussed with Lucy Siegel in the past, but perhaps we should ask a question again. Leslie says, thanks for interesting, stimulating programmes every Monday to Friday. A bit Steve Wright to put that in, but let's leave it, because Leslie's not the only person to have said she's enjoying the programme lately. I think, I'm glad you appreciate it, Leslie, because I want to say that it's not always easy to get programmes out.
Starting point is 00:49:04 Very few of my colleagues are able to come in at the moment, obviously, for all the reasons we all know so well. But everyone working extra hard. So a quick shout out to everyone who's making Women's Hour possible. And from Cecilia, if I buy three pairs of shoes, dresses, jeans, etc. online and return two, that makes five journeys. That's four more than if I'd gone into a shop and bought something. Shops pay business rates. Online companies don't have the same expensive rates applied to them. So same point there. P says, Pia, I hope it's Pia. Morning. As someone who lives on a small remote island, I have to do a lot of online shopping for my young family. I'm grateful I can shop online, but I wish I could pop to the city to get the children's shoes fitted,
Starting point is 00:49:52 feeling the fabric of a top and just to browse in a bookshop. Online shopping is useful, but it's not a complete substitute. I wish I knew which island you were living on. When you're emailing the programme, do let us know stuff like that because I just like to be able to place you. It cheers me to be able to do that. And Donatella, I don't want to shop online, but lack of items in the shops forces me to. I belong to the shielding group to keep my sanity. Among other activities, I've been baking festive biscuits. I haven't been able to find out I haven't been able to find cellophane bags in a 10 mile radius so I went online and they are arriving today
Starting point is 00:50:32 well glad to hear that and good luck with your festive biscuits I tried to make a loaf on Sunday with the aid of my new Nigella book what I Got because I interviewed Nigella a couple of weeks ago and I'm wondering whether I ought to post an image of the loaf I made. It was so dreadful that it might actually make people laugh but no I think I might try again and make a good one and then stick that up and pretend the first one was perfect all along
Starting point is 00:50:58 maybe I'll cheat and do that. Don't tell anybody I said so Thanks for listening today I'm back on Friday Tomorrow and Thursday's programmes will be presented by my friend Krupa Paddy. So keep her company tomorrow and on Thursday as well. Thanks for listening. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.
Starting point is 00:51:29 I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,
Starting point is 00:51:44 The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.

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