Woman's Hour - Women's pension ruling, young undocumented migrants, stillbirth

Episode Date: October 3, 2019

Women born in the 1950s and 1960s will hear a judgment today about their claim that they were unfairly treated by having to wait longer than they expected for their state pension. They want compensation for nearly four million women who have been forced to wait up to an extra six years to get their pensions after changes to bring women’s retirement age into line with men’s. We'll discuss what the ruling will mean. Chrisann Jarrett and Dami Makinde founded We Belong, a charity to help undocumented young migrants who have spent much of their lives growing up in the UK. They both came here as young children from Jamaica and Nigeria and saw the UK as home, yet when they reached 18 they discovered their legal status meant it wasn't that straightforward. They talk about what life is like for the estimated 120,000 undocumented children in the UK who find they are eligible to start an expensive and long process to become UK citizens. There are about 800 full-term stillbirths every year in Britain. Ministers are considering enabling coroners to hold inquests for all ‘full term’ stillbirths, from 37 weeks’ gestation - all involving a post-mortem. This may be what some women want but what about those who don’t? We discuss. And, listener Sophie Constant describes the photograph that captures her best day.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Ruth Watts

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Thursday 3rd October. In the next hour, we'll know the result of the case in the High Court brought by the group Back to 60, who've argued women born in the 1950s were discriminated against when their pension age was raised from 60 to 65 without due warning. We'll bring you the decision from the High Court and we'll find out what it means.

The investigation of stillbirths, some 800 a year in the UK. What would be the pros and cons of a proposal for compulsory postmortems in every case? A new charity called We Belong. It's been founded by two young women who came to this country as migrant children, were not officially documented and found they couldn't get into higher education. They want to help others in a similar position. And another of your best days. Sophie Constant sent in a photo of a rather unusual holiday.

Now you may have heard extracts this morning from the speech made in the House of Commons yesterday during the second reading of the Domestic Abuse Bill by the Labour MP Rosie Duffield. She described months of terrifying verbal abuse, humiliation and

financial control about which her friends, family and colleagues knew nothing. It starts slowly, a few emotional knocks, alternated with the romantic gushes and promises of everlasting love. So you are left reeling, confused, spinning around in an ever-changing but always hyper-alert state and the slow but sure disappearance of any kindness, respect or loving behaviour. You get to the stage where you're afraid to go home. After 15 hours at work,

you spend another hour on the phone to your mum or a close friend, trembling, a shadow of your usual self. You answer the phone, and the sheer nastiness and rage tells you not to go home at all. Well, the speaker described her speech as simultaneously horrifying and as moving a contribution as he had heard in his 22 years in the House. But what impact does such personal testimony have on cultural attitudes

and on other victims and survivors? Well, Lisa King is Director of Communications at Refuge. Lisa, what did you make of Rosie's speech? I have to say I too was very moved. It was incredibly powerful. And Rosie speaks for the hundreds and thousands of women who experience domestic abuse, often in silence behind closed doors up and down the country and I can only hope that Rosie's speech that you know you're brilliantly airing today and many others will create awareness of domestic abuse and that it can happen to women no matter what

their background what their area of work what their position and that it's important to discuss it and to reach out and get support. So how much impact do you really think it will have culturally in a wider context on people becoming aware because an MP stood up in the House and said it? I think the brilliant thing about Rosie's speech yesterday was her absolute honesty. And it must have been a painstaking experience to write really end to end that experience and her relationship she spoke for nearly nine whole minutes that's a long time I hope very much that her account will make victims or individuals start to recognize what abuse is many women will listen to what Rosie has said and be able to identify that as what they're experiencing. They may not even have seen it before hearing Rosie as domestic abuse.

So that could be a very poignant and important awareness-raising moment for many individuals across the country. In a broader context, Rosie delivers her speech on a very important day yesterday, which was when the domestic abuse had its second reading in the house which is great it will all contribute to a greater understanding of domestic violence and the insidiousness of the issue and its prevalence across the country and i can only hope that as a result the government will put you know ensure that the domestic abuse bill is a number one priority now as it moves through to becoming legislation. And that more people reach out and get support from organisations like Refuge through the helpline, through our website. And that this conversation just continues to grow.

It's no one moment that will, you know, solve this problem, but it's certainly a good step forward. And we need to keep having this conversation and creating more and more awareness and not being frightened to talk about a subject that really is the biggest social issue affecting women and children today. Rosie did very clearly encourage other women to reach out for help. What impact will that have?

Will they do it because they've had an MP talk about her experience? Will they be braver and be able to come out and seek help? I hope so for some women. I mean, absolutely. Our lines are open every hour of every day and we are there to provide that support. But it's also important to understand that exiting a violent partner is a process. It takes time. It takes understanding. It's an issue where women live in fear of being judged and very isolated and alone. will be able to do so. And for others, it will be an important step in understanding that there is support and that this isn't a subject matter that they need to exist with alone at home and they can start to take those steps. And what real difference, Lisa,

will a change in the law, if it happens, make? It could be transformational for this country. It is a travesty that today two women are killed every single week in England and Wales alone by a current or former partner, and that a huge one in four women will experience this issue. There is a great opportunity to transform the state's response to domestic abuse. As the bill stands, there are some good measures in it which will support essentially a justice response and improve that, which is important. But there is still opportunity to improve the bill yet further. There is a desperate need for sustainable funding to be allocated

towards vital services like refuges, which provide a lifeline to women like Rosie, who might be needing to flee in the middle of the night, planning that moment down to the letter to escape the violence. Those services are crying out for sustainable funding. We also need to support migrant women to ensure that they have access to funding to be able to exit a violent relationship. We need to ensure that the welfare benefit system is improved. There have been some important measures to bring about change, but there's a long way to go there too. And housing as well.

I mean, there are key things that still need to change and be incorporated, but it's a good start. We hope very much that there will be more to add to it. Lisa King, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now, every year, eight or nine hundred women in Britain suffer the tragedy of a stillbirth. The number of stillbirths in the UK is among the highest in Europe. An expectant mother has carried her fetus to term, anything from 37 to 40 weeks, given birth to her baby and then found the infant has died. Often the reason for the death can't be

explained. Well there's now a proposal from the Ministry of Justice and the Department of Health which would require all such events to be investigated by a post-mortem. Some parents may be pleased to be offered such an opportunity to try and find an explanation. Others may not. So what are the benefits of and concerns about such an investigation being made compulsory? Well, Clare Murphy is Director of External Affairs at the British Pregnancy Advisory Service and Dr Karen Morton is a consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist. Karen, why are there so many stillbirths in the UK, among the highest in Europe? Good morning, Jenny.

First of all, I must say I'm not speaking in an official capacity, but I'm very happy to share my experience. I must correct you on one thing straight away, which is the impression that when a baby is stillborn, that this is a surprise at that moment. Of course, the overwhelming majority of stillbirths don't occur due to an event during labour. They are a lady who comes to hospital saying, I haven't felt my baby moving today.

So a death of a baby in labour, called an intrapartum stillbirth, is a great, great rarity. The majority happen before the lady comes to hospital. But my question was, why are there so many? Why are we among the highest in Europe? Well, it's a good question. There's a great deal of variation in the definitions, in the reporting. I'm not trying to absolve us to say that there is no difference,

but if you look at the definitions of stillbirths in different countries, they are very different. And I don't think it's as different between the UK and Europe as the figures would suggest. I don't think our stillbirth rate really is any higher than anywhere else. Claire, what exactly are the proposals the government has put forward, presumably assuming that we do have a very high rate of stillbirth and every stillbirth whether we've got a high rate or a comparable with europe rate is is absolutely a tragedy and and i think the intentions behind this proposal are absolutely laudable um i think it's you know there are issues around the way we're getting there. So the idea is that every term stillbirth, so every stillbirth from 37 weeks will be referred to the coroner and will in principle proceed to inquest.

And that absolutely means, as you pointed out in your introduction, that the vast majority of those, in fact, all the consultation assumes, is that all will need a post-mortem. And I think this is a really important point in that at the moment, all parents who suffer a term stillbirth are offered the opportunity of a post-mortem. But in fact, only about half of those parents take that up. Now, the reasons for those will be complex. But I think what's really important about these proposals and really needs to be questioned and examined is really the fact that this is taking away that decision making from the parents, that this is really about saying this will happen and an inquest will take place. And I think really we need to think about consent and informed choice and whether that's really a path we want to go down,

even when the intentions are absolutely laudable. Karen, what tends to happen now as regards investigations to try and find out what happened? Every maternity unit will investigate a stillbirth absolutely thoroughly. Claire's absolutely right that there is a big encouragement to couples to allow a post-mortem. It's a very difficult time for them, and a lot of couples don't like the idea of their baby being examined

but but with explanation you can usually carry them through to what we believe is a good decision because we want to learn whether there's something that could have an effect on future pregnancies and indeed to try and explain this appalling tragedy. In fact, when I see couples after the event, some weeks later, when I've got all the results of very thorough investigations, I know that couples are really almost hoping that we'll find something to explain this appalling tragedy that they've experienced. It feels like such a terrible waste when a term baby is lost so close and yet so far.

But in the majority of cases, I would have to say the post-mortem doesn't tell us anything extra, but occasionally it does. Claire, I know BPAS has other concerns. You said we do not believe coroners should have the power to investigate stillbirths. And I know one of your worries is the idea that somehow it blurs the legal definition of personhood. What do you mean by that? So I think for us, this is very much about who decides. And I absolutely, you know, agree with Karen's approach that with you know informed consent and talking

to couples about finding reasons and pursuing post-mortems that many couples will will agree to go down that path but I think this is very much about thinking about who is at the center of this and whose body and baby this this involves and that is the. And I think one of the issues we have here is that at the moment, stillbirths don't go to the coroners because a stillborn baby is not an independent being who has drawn breath and lived. And I think one of the things that really needs sort of clarity is that if this goes to a coroner, the medical records that will be compelled to be brought forward are those of the woman. This will, you know, the consultation is very clear that around 80% of these coroners' inquests will involve parents having to give

evidence. The woman may well have to give evidence. And I think we're just very concerned about what that's going to mean in practice. We live in a time, if I may, we live in a time where I think women's choices in pregnancy are often under a lot of scrutiny. Women are often held accountable for all sorts of negative outcomes in their pregnancy and a time when we don't necessarily know why many stillbirths happen. One of our concerns is very much that women will find themselves held accountable for things they did or didn't do in pregnancy, actions or inactions. In as many as six in ten stillbirths, the cause is not known. Wouldn't the kind of compulsory post-mortem that's proposed actually help prevent future deaths? We don't know that. And actually, the consultation is very clear that the proposals on the table,

the proposal to go through a coroner, to go to the coroner's inquest, there is no empirical evidence that this is going to improve rates. And actually, we should also be clear that the rates of stillbirth, they are high, but they are falling. And that is because this issue is taken so much more seriously. There are a number of investigations and mechanisms now in place to improve the care of women, to really, really try to reduce this. And I think this is another proposal, which, you know, as I keep saying, the intentions are brilliant, but, you know, which sits alongside and isn't very clear how it's going to work with actually other frameworks that are in place

and really are, you know, starting to see some reductions. Karen, what would you favour to try and resolve this question? Whether they should go to the coroner. I can't think they should, Jenny. I can't think who it's going to help. A proper thorough investigation of when a baby is lost in hospital is an implicit part of the way a maternity unit works, and we're regulated to do that.

There are initiatives, however. For example, raising awareness of monitoring fetal movements and encouraging women to come. If they don't think their baby has moved well today, come today. Don't leave it till tomorrow. All maternity units across the country will have set up this initiative and that in itself is helping save babies I'm sure. Well Dr Karen Morton and Claire Murphy thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning and we would like very much to hear from

you on this question. How do you think these proposals should be viewed? Should they go ahead or should they not? Thank you both very much. Now a new charity is being launched today which aims to help young people who came to this country as migrant children and are consequently undocumented find their way through the system which will enable them to get finance to go into higher education. The founders and joint chief executives of a charity called We Belong are Dami Makinda and Chrisanne Jarrett. Chrisanne, why the title We Belong? We Belong came about because, you know, we recognise that actually the young people feel a sense of affinity to the UK having been brought here from a very young age.

And so the charity We Belong, the name encapsulates the permanence that they feel to the UK that this is their home. But why are they not documented officially citizens? Well, the immigration system in this country has been broken for a very long time. It's very complex and costly. And the young people that we work with are having to go through a very long process before they even get to settlement. You know with a no legal aid and the cost just being hiking every year it's made really difficult to not only regularize but also maintain status in the UK. What happened in your case? So I was born in Jamaica and I came here at the age of eight like Paddington Bear came with all my ID around my neck and I've lived here ever since in Hackney and at the age of 18

when I wanted to go to university I recognised that because of my immigration status being unsettled I was being treated differently in the fact that I was charged international fees as opposed to home fees. Demi what happened to you? Yes so like Chrisanne I was I was born in Nigeria and like Chrisanne I came into the UK at the age of eight years old also I'm currently 26 at the moment and I lived in Milton Keynes first before then settling in London at the age of 13 and we tried to regularise my status from the age of 15 so actually quite early on um within my teenage years but was not successful until I was 21. And why is it at 18 that you really hit the buffers on this one that it becomes even more difficult which I think has happened to both of you? Yes that's right. Dami you go first.

Yes no 18 um well 18 is um you know you're an adult in the UK. And a lot of people, 18 is when they want to go to university. 18 is when they want to start their life and become adults in their own rights. And so it becomes very, very difficult, especially because we recognise that actually a lot of people don't even know their situation until they hit that stage of wanting to go to higher education and then realising that immigration is actually a problem and it's affecting them. um yeah and that's the reason why 18 is a crucial age what happened to you at 18 at the age of 18 is when i really started to ask questions because as you know going to university you need documentation um and being brought to the uk at eight you just don't ask am i british and that's when the real the question becomes relevant and so we have young people finishing you know secondary school and sixth form andising they're on their own and then this new path to settlement that

they didn't think about before. Demi I know you've spoken to a lot of other young people what sort of stories have they been telling you? Oh I can't tell you honestly the stories have been quite sad and emotional a lot of people feel isolated a lot of people feel ashamed and if we're talking about the young people who are in this in this particular situation and just feeling isolated and ashamed feeling they can't speak up and can't um tell you know their story to anybody because being a migrant in the UK comes with a connotation that they don't want to attach to them and so you know the one thing that we try to do um with We Belong or at We Belong is creating a leadership programme that allows them to be able to be equipped.

And we create a platform for them to be able to speak up and have their voices heard and become future leaders and spearhead and set the agenda in what's going on. What about their parents? What is the legal status of the parents of these children who are not officially legal? So it's a mix as Zami mentioned and for example in my situation my mum did all she could to maintain our status and in fact she put in an application for permanent residence in 2007 and the Home Office got back to us in 2012 and said they lost all our paperwork and so you have a situation where parents can be extremely proactive do everything they can but like the Windrush situation with the constant

changes in immigration rules and the complexities around it you can easily get lost in a system. So how did you restart all that because I do happen to know that you did go to LSE and presumably got the funding how did you resolve it so we and you studied law which is which is very relevant um so I in this situation I found myself in I was quite lucky I got a scholarship to study at LSE but the situation for many young people was still kind of the same and that's how we kind of came about um activating change makers and being a voice um in our communities to really say this is an injustice that the situation in the home office is very broken and we need to be

beacons of change and influence change makers to recognize that this is not fit for purpose. How did you manage to persuade LSE to give you a scholarship? I mean is that what you're trying to do across the country until this questions result? Well we persuaded them simply because we told I told my story and I think that there's a power in telling stories and going back to the immigration system in general I think it needs to be evidence-based and it needs to be based on the experiences of people that are going through the system and so by telling the stories of sharing our narrative that's how we're able to influence change. In regards to universities we've had very

successful campaigns and getting scholarships up and down the country but really it's a central change that needs to happen through government and what kind of response are you getting from that area presumably you've been trying to talk to the home office about this yes sorry no we have been trying to talk to the home office um about you know the situation we've built a relationship with um a lot of mps um a lot of the young people who are in the situation have also written to their mps and you know uh i'm asking them to speak out um in in parliament regarding the injustice that they face in and so we've had quite positive um interactions with mps who are looking to help us, who are looking to speak

out and a lot have as well. So it's been quite positive. Of course, we do need more MPs to continue to speak out on the issue until the situation is resolved and the law is completely changed so that young migrants can be treated equally and fairly in a society that they call home. Now, obviously, we asked the Home Office to give us a comment on this. And here's what they said. Fees are set at a level that helps provide the resources Office to give us a comment on this, and here's what they said. Fees are set at a level that helps provide the resources necessary to operate our border, immigration and citizenship system to reduce the burden on UK taxpayers. We have committed to reviewing fees for children registering as British citizens. It is not mandatory to apply for citizenship in order to live, study and work in the UK as Leave to Remain confers these benefits.

Well, our comment to that is that we don't necessarily agree that it is not essential to apply for citizenship. Citizenship for us and the young people that we work with implies permanence. There's not going to be any question now about their status and where they belong. Whereas limited leave to remain, you know, these young people have to renew it over a 10 year period at a different cost. If you fall off of that process, you're never anywhere closer to becoming settled in a country and being recognised as a true citizen. So limited leave to remain is simply not enough. And in terms of the fees, I mean, you know, these are young people going into adulthood with an immense financial burden. Of course, there is a cost to maintaining the borders, but we are also taxpayers too. Dami, I know you were offered a place at

university at Royal Holloway, I think it was five years ago. Why did you not take it up? I simply couldn't take it up because they considered me as an international student so despite having lawful status and at that time they told me that I had to wait until I had indefinitely to remain settled status in order to be able to go to university and so I wasn't able to take it up and that's when I came across you know just for kids law and you know with Chrisann and started to do the letters lend campaign so that was the reason why I couldn't take up my place at Royal Holloway at the time. But the law, Chrisanne, as I understood it, on access to university funding,

was challenged in 2015 at the Supreme Court. What happened as a result of that? So we campaigned for equal access and we shared our case studies with the justices of the Supreme Court. And they actually deemed that the student finance rules must be changed. And so around 2,000 young migrants every year are now able to access student finance. But in doing this campaign, we recognise that though a symptom in the expression of a hostile environment is the barriers to higher education for young migrants, the root cause is the immigration status and also the immigration process in general.

So that's why We Belong kind of came through. How did you two come together to do this? Because you're not friends from being little, are you? No. How did you meet each other? Well, we met at Just for Kids Law through the Let Us Learn campaign because, again, as Chris-Anne had mentioned, we both recognised that we got to a crucial age

of 18 and realised that we weren't going to be able to access student finance to higher education and so we started to also meet other people just for kids law who were facing the same issue and when we came together we started to recognise that immigration is the root cause of everything that we are facing. Are you going to be a lawyer

as well? I would actually like to study history. Ah okay you just kind of sounded like a lawyer really both of you do. Thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning Dami, Makinda and Chris and Jarrett and again we'd like to hear from you on this one. If you've been through a similar situation let us know you can tweet or indeed you can send an email. Now, still to come in today's programme, the judgement on the pension age of some 4 million women born in the 1950s who've claimed the change from 60 to 65 without due warning was discriminatory. We'll bring you the result and the serial, the penultimate episode of Cry Babies. And I have to express my congratulations to Dame Kelly Holmes,

who yesterday predicted that Dina Asher-Smith would storm her way to gold in last night's World Athletics Championships. She was right. If you missed our conversation, you will, of course, find it on BBC Sounds. Now, for the past couple of weeks, we've been hearing from some of you who responded to our request for a photo of what you would describe as your best day. One of the hundreds who sent

in a picture was Sophie Constant who told Laura Thomas about a holiday photo. Well, in this photograph, we're seeing little me on a big adventure, basically. It's, I think, a major trip I took with my husband for his 30th birthday. And he'd always wanted to go to the Faroe Islands, but had never quite gotten there. And it was sort of a, well, why don't we just go? So after an overnight train and a plane, we ended up there. But in this particular photograph, I think I'd actually been really seasick that day

and I'd completely forgotten about how ill I was in that photograph and I remember it was my husband who said like oh let me get a photo of you it looks really cool and then I sort of turned around and it I just love it because it's like I'm the littlest adventurer if you see what I mean and just kind of because it's so removed from what I've grown up with sort of what's considered a holiday it just felt all the more special just kind of breaking out and having that freedom I'm only about five foot one and a little bit maybe five foot two growing up culture I've always been sort of made to feel like oh she's so small and it's like something I remember is um I did a martial art for quite a long time and I've got really small hands and it was always like oh

you're such little hands and it was always been like yeah but they they do stuff and it was amazing to just feel so small in such a big landscape but it wasn't like oh no I'm really little it was like yeah I've made it here it rained a lot I threw up a lot on the boat but I'm still here and um I suppose for context I I should say that's the place where we saw loads of puffins, which was kind of why we were on a boat in the Northern Atlantic. And you were also saying that this is a very different kind of holiday from the family holidays that you grew up with. Do you want to say something about that as well yes um the family holidays that I was sort of brought up to believe were kind of you know they had to be sunny it had to be warm usually there was a beach involved and it was kind of anything to do with snow or cold was kind of like oh that's is that a holiday

really but then my husband's sort of a little bit more castles and landscape. So he was the one who wanted to go to the fairways. And I was kind of like, well, that sounds like an adventure. Sometimes when you grow up in an immigrant family, there's sort of a culture. And while my parents are very open, they are essentially a product of their culture. And kind of when, as a child, you sort of grow up in a different place, you absorb more of the local culture as well as, you know, and I do feel like as if I'm very true to kind of my, like all my culture and sort of where my parents came from. But at the same time, I am a product also of where I've grown up. And it feels like such a small thing because it was literally in some ways just a holiday but to kind of the first time go somewhere that's sort of very rugged and cold just it did

feel like as if I've taken a bit of a leap here and I've gone off piste which um it's not brave but it it took a little bit of oh okay I can, I can do this, to actually go and do it. And what do you feel you got from it? Was there a sense that something had been gained from going a little off-piste? Yes, it sort of felt like as if I was kind of, in a small way, adulthood really like proper truly assume I mean I'd been assuming adulthood for some time but you know when you're sort of doing

something and you're making little moves and like sort of chipping away at something and then suddenly you're like oh it, I'm sort of here. It was like, I think that holiday was the first time I was sort of like, oh, well, this is a, I've actually, I've made a really independent decision. Sophie Constance was talking to Laura Thomas and the music was lovely head, Goldfrapp. And you can see the photographs that we're talking about throughout this series. They're all on Twitter or indeed on Instagram. Now, we have discussed the question of women born in the 1950s

and their worries about their pensions on a number of occasions. But today, the result of a case brought before the High Court by a group called Back to 60 has been handed down. The women argued that the change in their pensionable age from 60 to 65 without adequate warning was discriminatory. So what's the result? Well, Josephine Cumbo is the pensions correspondent from the Financial Times and in the radio car at the High Court is Joanne Welsh, the founder and director of Back to 60.

She's been a bit busy, I think, talking to press conferences. Yeah, apologies for that. But Joanne, you've finally come to us. What is the result? It was dismissed. However, part of the judgment is that it goes now back to Parliament. We've already set that up, and we have an early-day motion supported by 215 MPs.

That's probably more now, actually, and within that early day motion is a temporary special measure which facilitates a swift solution. No parliamentary bills, nothing, and it doesn't change primary legislation, it purely facilitates a remedy. Boris Johnson has already told us that he will do everything he possibly can to remedy this situation and he will look at it with new eyes and fresh figure. Thank you very much, Prime Minister. We will much appreciate that. But what was the feeling in the court when you heard the judges say, it's dismissed? Well, it's just purely a hanging down of the information. One surprising point was that we weren't allowed to know that our pension age had changed. That was astounding actually because just recently

you know BBC TV licenses and everything millions of people have been written to to let them know the proposals or will be written to. So if you know that your TV license is being changed why can't you know that your pension is being changed? they have a duty of care and we'll be holding them to that duty of care also unison of talking with us unison and unite backing us as are the European women so alliance of lawyers the National Association of women's Organisations and similar organisations are all behind us. Our armoury is fierce. And as I say, were we a political party, we have 215 MPs, we would be the third largest political party.

So our lobbying power is phenomenal, as is our campaign with three quarters of a million supporters. Joanne, I'm just going to go to Josephine Cumbo now, who is the pensions correspondent from the Financial Times. How, Josephine, do you interpret this judgment that was handed down? It seems like it's going to be quite a setback for the women who have been campaigning to have this recognised, these changes to their pension age recognised as unfair and discriminatory. One of the key points that they've been arguing for many years

is that the changes that were made in 1995 and subsequently in 2011 did not give them sufficient notice of those changes and that affected and impacted them in the way that they didn't have enough time to prepare, etc. But the claimants had made that point in court today. But what the court rejected those arguments quite clearly. They said that there was no legitimate expectation that the government would not alter their state pension age without prior consultation.

So on that point of sufficient notice, it's clearly a setback for their case. But then as Joanne said, you know, if people... Go on, you make the point, Joanne. You said that if you get a letter about your TV licence, why didn't you get a letter about your pension? Oh, no, come on. Listen, this is just common sense. Everybody's talking these days about parliamentary reform and I could tell you a whole hour about my view where that's concerned.

And seriously, if they don't think they have a duty of care where telling women or anyone that their pension age has changed, then that law will be changed, trust me. Seriously, it's just, they say sometimes the law is an ass and maybe it is here. Josephine, as Joanne said, they've got a lot of support. What happens now? There is an avenue of appeal if they wish to go down the appeal route of taking it down that route. There was another aspect to that ruling today. I just want to come back on that point that Joanne made about duty of care,

and that seems to be quite a fair point. I mean, a lot of people didn't know about it back in the 1990s and early 2000s. There was even government research in early 2000 which showed that there was a low awareness of these changes. So definitely there is a case there about the fairness of these changes. But what the court said today was that Parliament's notification measures within the statute, there was no notification or requirement on them to contact people individually at the time. So that was the law as it stood. Whether it's fair or it should be changed is another question today.

So what do you think they should do now? I know you're not a lawyer. Sorry? Go on, Joanne. Could I make a point? Yeah. Peter Lilly actively dismissed an opportunity to tell 50s

women. There were talks, there were not talks, there were talks um there were not talks there were concerns that um about that women didn't know and peter lilly himself blocked an opportunity to tell 50s women so all this about they don't have to tell us they actively dismissed an opportunity to tell us and you know if you look at David Henke's blog he goes in depth to that point and seriously I really cannot see how any MP can look us in the eye and know the impact of this well abomination and say, well, we didn't have to tell you. When we speak to MPs privately, that's not what they tell us.

They're hugely concerned. Josephine said you could go to appeal. Are you considering going to appeal? Can you afford to go to appeal? We have to speak to our legal team. We haven't had the opportunity post the handing down. We will be doing that and we'll be making decisions at that point. I cannot speak at this moment about our plans.

Josephine, just generally, I mean, what we were looking at here was the question of equality, that you bring women up to the same age as men eventually. How equal are pensions when you compare what men get and what women get? While the pension age is equal we do not have pension equality in terms of outcomes for men and women. Women are still getting to retirement with about 40% less in terms of their pension pots. And a large reason behind that is because their state pension, they rely on that. And that's a lot smaller than men's. And that's due... Is that because of time taken out of work? Of course, there's various reasons. I mean, back in the 19... for women born in the 1950s,

there were, you know, there were... it was a different world then. You were excluded from workplace pension schemes. There was more discrimination, age discrimination. And that's the world and the environment that they're dealing with now in terms of the state pension. So that is the reason why a lot of women who are coming up to retirement now don't have the same level of income as men do. And, of course, when the pension age goes up they feel a lot harder and of

course there's the other issue that women tend to bear the brunt of child care and also looking after elderly relatives so if they're pulled out of the workforce for any reason and they're relying on that state pension they will feel that more sharply in terms of the loss of that income. How surprised are you at today's judgment? I'm not surprised, to tell you the truth, because the case was built on the notice issue. Back in 1995, this decision was announced in 1995. There was about 15 years before the changes came in, in 2010. But I feel that the changes that were announced in 2011, which sped up the increase

from 60 to 66 which added two years to the pension age for some women that definitely that seemed a lot unfair and I do want to make a point that there were not everyone was unaware of the changes of pension age from from 2010. I was talking to Josephine Cumbo and Joanne Welch. There was lots from you on domestic abuse and the speech made by the MP Rosie Duffield. Sally said tremendously brave speech by Rosie Duffield yesterday. Glad to hear it highlighted just now. Proud that she's our Canterbury MP. Someone who didn't want to be named said the biggest impact Rosie's speech will have in terms of encouraging abused women to reach out is that it may make them feel less embarrassed by being in this situation. The more educated, affluent, previously successful etc you are, the more ashamed you feel of having somehow ended up allowing someone to treat you like this.

I speak from personal experience. An Oxford graduate with an MBA, I was in an abusive marriage for 15 years, four of them in divorce proceedings, and have been all but destroyed by it. I'm currently living off benefits with the PTSD from the abuse which affects both me and my 11 year old son making finding work close to impossible. Someone else who didn't want to be named said men also suffer and the help available is pitiful. We've gone through all of this with our son and then Adrian said in the discussion of domestic violence no mention at all that a substantial proportion is woman on man rather than your special pleading of man on woman it would also be interesting to consider domestic violence in same

sex relationships then he went on to discuss the numbers of women experiencing stillbirths in every case there are men involved in this situation, albeit that not all of the men concerned will be interested or negatively affected. More on stillbirths. Claire said, I really believe it should be the decision of the family. Some will categorically not want their baby to have a post-mortem

and this should be respected. They're going through hell. My son was stillborn at 41 weeks and we had a PM as we wanted to know the reasons. Jane said carrot or stick having had a baby who lived just three hours. I declined to have a post-mortem 38 years later how I wish I had. Stillbirth neonatal is so excruciatingly painful. Being forced to have the post-mortem could heap pain on pain. I believe if I had a more knowledgeable person counselling me, I would have had it because I now still have too many unanswered questions in my head.

Better to spend more of the resources to understand these issues. It has to be a better, kinder way of managing this, and it would probably increase the number of postmortems. Someone else who didn't want to be named said, I have just listened to this piece and I think it's an appalling idea that each stillbirth is referred to the coroner and there's an inquest. My husband and I went through this experience when we lost a non-identical twin but gave birth to the other lovely healthy baby. It was such a traumatic experience but at the time

of losing the baby, 22 weeks in our case, it was not so upsetting as at term, although of course we had a lovely baby too in the surviving twin. The lady who spoke about how a good maternity unit supports you through the experience is spot on. And I can't see at all how an inquest would achieve anything apart from increasing the suffering of the family. Can we please start listening to our medical experts on these matters? The support we received was second to none and a post-mortem was completed and it provided no reasons for why it had happened. Sometimes these things just do happen and nature takes its course. On the two young women who founded the We Belong charity, just to say the article that was just broadcast about we

belong with two amazing young women full of passion and a sense of good really lifted my spirits thank you for a break from all the negativity that so dominates the news these days and that came from deborah and then on pensions uh very early on we had an email from Marion who said there are up to 3.8 million women sick with anticipation, worry and fear today, waiting for the result of the Back to 60 judicial review. There's been so little coverage about how the pension changes have affected so many of us. Please cover this fully, whatever the result. Our whole program wouldn't be amiss as this affects what i imagine to be your core audience too stressed to say more just now sue said outrageous discriminated all my life and now being told that working an extra six years is about equality

gutted and annabelle said i don't see how women can have the same pension age when there is still such a clear gap in pay. Contributions are therefore lower. Add to this the fact that more women bear brunt of childcare, often in part because they earn less than their partners. And you have a huge difference between how women and men can live in later life. If the pay gap is eliminated, then I would be happy for women's pension age to be the same as men's. Thank you for all your contributions to this morning's programme.

You can join Jane tomorrow when she'll be talking to the executive editor and beauty director of Glamour magazine, Funmi Feto. She'll be talking about her new book, Palette, the beauty bible for women of colour. From me for today, bye-bye. Lauren O'Byrne here and I'm calling all music lovers and in particular Radiohead fans because on Desert Island Discs, I'm casting away Tom York.

He talks to me about how he discovered music, his love of breaking things, what he felt about his posh school and how he greeted the band's initial success. He also shares the life advice R.E.M.'s Michael Stipe gave him and describes his personal ambitions for the future. And of course, he'll be explaining the reasons why he has chosen each of the eight sensational tracks he wants to take to the desert island. Do not miss it. Search for Desert Island Discs Tom York in BBC Sounds and subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, Tom York in BBC Sounds and subscribe. The deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.