Woman's Hour - Women's Rugby League World Cup, Matt Hancock in the jungle, Friends Forever - Nina, US midterms

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

England's Rugby League Women's team play their next World Cup match against Papua New Guinea tonight. Joining Emma to talk about how to get more women involved in the game are the official Women's Ambassador for the Rugby League World Cup Jodie Cunningham and the Captain Emily Rudge. Jodie is also an Ambassador for the RLWC's Social Impact Programme which champions inclusive volunteering. We hear from volunteer Jenny Robinson, who is a wheelchair user and has learning disabilities, who says it's changed her life.Whether you choose to watch or not, you won’t have escaped the news that reality show I’m a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here! is back on TV and that Matt Hancock, the former Health Secretary during the pandemic, who had to resign over breaking his own rules when an affair with an aide was exposed by the newspapers - is due to make his first appearance in the jungle camp in Australia tonight. Christine Hamilton, media personality and author, married to former Conservative MP Neil Hamilton - came third in the first series of I'm a Celebrity 20 years ago - back in 2002. She gives her view to Emma, as does Dr Cathy Gardner, who brought a judicial review on the government's discharge policy of hospitals to care homes at the beginning of the pandemic against Matt Hancock, the NHS and Public Health England – and won.Results are being declared in the US midterm elections. The Republicans currently have the most seats in the House of Representatives but it is still unclear which party could gain control of the Senate. Abortion has played a role in these elections, with the first batch of exit polls showing that for 3 in 10 Americans, abortion was the most important issue. The Democrats ran campaigns that focussed on abortion rights and poll as the most trusted party with this issue, but has the importance of abortion rights been overplayed? Emma speaks to Amanda Taub, writer for The New York Times.Over the last few weeks we've been talking about the power and the pain of female friendship. A Woman's Hour Listener we are calling Nina contacted us - she was listening to one of the episodes exploring whether friendships can be repaired - and it really chimed with her. Our reporter Jo Morris met Nina at her home to hear her story.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It's striking to note that it was not one but two women who put their heads above the parapet to allege bullying behaviour of a powerful government operator, Sir Gavin Williamson, who last night became the First Minister to resign from Rishi Sunak's cabinet. Sir Gavin is accused of abusive behaviour towards fellow MPs and civil servants, though he denies any wrongdoing. Leaked messages between him and Conservative MP and former Chief Whip Wendy Morton came to light at the weekend in the Sunday Times, and then last night on

Channel 4 News, Anne Milton, his former Deputy chief whip and Conservative MP, also spoke out. But Sir Gavin's resignation marks the third time he's been forced from government. In 2019, he was Sax's defence secretary after allegedly leaking sensitive information related to Huawei's potential involvement in the UK's 5G network. And later that year, he was then made Education Secretary by Boris Johnson. But last year, in 2021, was removed over his handling of A-level exams during the pandemic. Well, while Rishi Sunak prepares for Prime Minister's questions today at noon, another of his former Cabinet colleagues is also preparing

for a different kind of trial. Matt Hancock, the former Health Secretary, is preparing for his Jungle debut on ITV's I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here. He has defended his decision to appear on the programme, saying it's a powerful tool to reach young people and an incredible opportunity for him to engage with the 12 million Brits who tune in every single night. Well, in a moment, I shall be talking to the woman

who took the government to court over their actions during the pandemic when it came to Matt Hancock's initial care homes discharge policy and won. But I wanted to ask you today about how politicians are coming across to you at the moment and whether it's a career you would ever consider or have considered. We know women only make up 34% of the House of Commons, a number which falls below that of comparable European nations. But are we attracting the brightest and the best? And how can politics better appeal to the people who would make the

very best candidates, as Matt Hancock seems to feel his jungle appearance might do? He's also reported to be earning £400,000 for going in which if the case would make him one of the highest paid contestants on the TV programme in its history. Politics, would you do it? How's it coming across to you at the moment? Text me here on 84844, that's the number you need. Text to charge your standard rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through our website

or send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Just check all those charges. Also on today's programme, how to make rugby league more appealing to women. The England women's captain has a few ideas. And after listening to this programme, one of you, our listeners,

decided to try and repair a friendship she thought was lost. We'll find out what happened. But whether you choose to watch or not, you will not have escaped the news that the reality show I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here, is back on television. And the former health secretary, Matt Hancock, who had to resign, remember, over breaking his own rules when an affair with an aide was exposed by the newspapers, is due to make an appearance in the jungle camp in Australia for the first time this evening. He could be seen briefly on last night's episode saying this. This experience will be an adventure. When I'm in camp, people will just see the real me.

Survival in the jungle is a good metaphor for the world I work in. People will see me warts and all. See the human side of the guy behind the podium. I don't think I've got any fears or phobias, but I'm about to find out. Well, people are predicting, and some no doubt hoping, he'll be targeted for the most gruesome of Bush-Tucker trials, eating all sorts of parts of animals, including kangaroo testicles, perhaps,

and other challenging foodstuffs. Although apparently he may have a health condition, which means he cannot. Christine Hamilton's first on the line. Of course, media personality and author, married to Neil Hamilton, the former Conservative Member of Parliament for Tasson. She came third in the first series of I'm a Celebrity, gosh, 20 years ago,

back in 2002. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Don't make me feel old. 20 years, it's incredible. Hadn't realised it had been going that long, but there you go. What do you make? We're talking about whether this could change perceptions of politicians. What do you make of Matt Hancock going in? Well, let's start with changing perceptions, because actually I know from my own personal experience that it can,

because I went in in 2002 as not exactly popular. Let's just put it like that. The media had painted me as a pretty ghastly person. Somebody actually said that to describe me as Lady Macbeth is to insult lady macbeth so i went into the jungle with low expectations just just to say and perhaps for for some of our younger listeners as well this was this was after your husband's political career ended after allegations for for cash for questions in 1997 yes carry on um so i went into the jungle

with very low expectations which possibly possibly Matt Hancock has. But it totally changed people's view of me because they saw me as I really am and not the way I'd be presented by the media. And it was one of the best things I ever did. So Matt Hancock said just now they'll see me warts and all. Well, we've seen the warts, I think. And that's at the moment what is sticking out. But he may be able to turn things around. He's a member of Parliament. He's got a full-time job. Let's leave aside all the COVID situation.

You've got somebody coming on to talk about that. He's paid by the taxpayer to do his job for his constituents in Suffolk. He's now 10,000 miles away on the other side of the world, out of contact. OK, he's been told he can have a laptop and a phone. Well, that's not fair, is it, on the other constituents? It should be a level playing field. And I just think it's totally wrong. And he hasn't yet said that he's going to forfeit his parliamentary salary. It would be much better if he forfeited the 400,000 that he's allegedly getting for this. He says he's going to give a proportion, but he hasn't been explicit. I think it's an insult to his constituents. It's an insult to the taxpayers. And I think it's totally and utterly wrong. He isn't the first, though, is he, in terms of serving politicians? We've had from the Conservative side, Nadine Dorries. And we also

had the former Scottish Labour leader, I should say, Kezia Dugdale. She was an MSP when on the show. But the magic word there is former. We also had Lembid Opik, who was former Lib Dem MP. If you're ex-MP, absolutely fine. I'll tell you, Emma, what I think Matt Hancock is hoping to do. And that little clip has reinforced my view. He's hoping that we're all going to kind of fall

in love with him like we did or i did with ed balls and ed balls totally changed his personality as we saw it round and he became he is to me a national treasure he did brilliantly on strictly i just don't think matt hancock is going to do that but you know the interesting thing i think this is right they the people in the, they don't know who's coming in. So they won't have seen all the order that he's had heaped on his head. I mean, normally I'm a celebrity is reserved for the tabloids. It's now on the front page of just about everything. And Matt Hancock won't know either quite how much has been tipped on him in the last week or so.

So it's going to be interesting. And I don't know, for anybody who doesn't watch it, forgive me, but there's a sweet guy in there called Owen who really thought Mike Tindall was married to an Australian. So what he's going to make of Matt Hancock, I shouldn't think he's got a clue who he is. His argument for going in, just very quickly, sorry to interrupt, his argument for going in is that he's going to reach millions,

the 8, 12 million who watch it. Well, that is more than the people who watched yesterday in Parliament, admittedly, and he wants to talk about dyslexia. But, I mean, has he seen the programme? Is ITV going to give a lot of time to serious discussion about dyslexia? They're going to be far more interested. They've only got an hour and a bit every night, and they have 24 hours' worth to get in there there he's not going to make much progress on that but in his

defense we are talking about it now and i've just mentioned it well we will see i just think it's an appalling decision and i think he should stick to the day job as someone who's been in it and as someone who as you say experienced a difference difference of public opinion afterwards for you, certainly. It's interesting to get your take this morning, Christine Hamilton. Thank you. For some, Matt Hancock's appearance is not something to enjoy as entertainment, because of course, what Christine was alluding to there was the idea that some won't even know who he is. And he will be coming across to a brand new audience as well. For some, what's happening this evening is an unforgivable breach of trust. And Dr. Kathy Gardner is one of those people.

She joins me now on the line. Her father was living in a care home at the start of the pandemic and died of suspected COVID on April 3rd, 2020. Kathy took a judicial review about the discharge policy of hospitals to care homes against Matt Hancock, the NHS and Public Health England to the High Court and she won. The judges said the policy was unlawful. And of course, we now have the public inquiry into the government's handling of the pandemic, which is getting underway. Good morning, Cathy. Good morning. Thank you for being with us today.

What are you feeling this morning ahead of this evening? I'm just disgusted. I'm disgusted that Matt Hancock would even consider doing something like this to try and turn himself into some kind of entertainment, some kind of lovable entertainment figure. But I'm also disgusted that the producers of the programme, ITV, for inviting him to take part. It shows an appalling lack of judgment

and a complete disregard for the feelings of the bereaved. We did ask ITV for a statement about Matt Hancock taking part, but they said they had nothing to add from when they announced he would be appearing. So on that front, there's nothing more they want to say about it. But why do you think what you seem to be saying is why do you think it's an irresponsible move to have him? Because we have one of the worst death tolls in the world from Covid. He was the man responsible. He was Secretary of State for Health and Social Care

at the start of the pandemic. He was involved in making some very, very significant decisions that affected their lives and ultimately caused the deaths or had a part to play in the deaths of many thousands of people. We know from my judicial review that one of the decisions taken was unlawful and irrational. Over 20,000 people died in care homes in the first couple of months of pandemic. It was absolute carnage for them. There are many, many bereaved people who are never going to get over the loss of their loved ones. To have him featuring on a programme like this, just as entertainment, is so insulting. At the time, we expected him as a serious politician with the most serious job to do the best he possibly could.

We saw what happened. We know the PPE fiasco, all the other things that went on. For him now to turn around and say, oh, he wants us to see his human side. I think I've seen that. He's shown no remorse. He's not apologised. He's not even accepted the ruling of my case. This is just a direct insult to everybody affected. With your case, you took this judicial

review to the High Court over that policy, crowdfunded, I believe, to do that. And I want to come to that in just a moment. The judges rejected other claims made under human rights legislation and against NHS England. A spokesman for Mr Hancock at the time said the case comprehensively cleared ministers of any wrongdoing and found Mr Hancock acted reasonably on all counts. The court also found that Public Health England failed to tell ministers what they knew about asymptomatic transmission. And Mr Hancock, just in terms of this extra part of the statement, has frequently stated how he wished this had been brought to his attention earlier.

What's your response to that, that it's perhaps unfair to put this onto individual ministers? Well, that's a very interesting take on it, really, to me, because right from the start of the case we wanted to know who was responsible for making the decisions particularly the hospital discharge policy who signed it off and the defense lawyers acting for Mr Hancock and the rest of them were very clear that the responsibility stopped with him he was the responsible person so to try and say that really it wasn't anything to do with him well I'm afraid actually the legal team said it was him. He was the responsible person.

He had a duty to protect vulnerable people. He was also the one who stood up in Parliament and told everybody he'd put a protective ring around care homes when that was a complete lie. They'd done nothing of the sort. And in fact, the discharge policy, they put people like my father in direct line of catching cold. There's a message here that's come in saying it's deeply, deeply upsetting that the former health secretary is doing this. My lovely mum died in April 2020 alone in a care home where 14 residents died in 10 days after a hospital patient with COVID was discharged into the home. So someone else responding in a very similar way with sadly very similar circumstances to you, Cathy.

What was your father like? How do you remember him? He was, you know, really a kind and gentle person, just very straightforward sort of man. He was very particular about what he did. a really kind and gentle person, just very straightforward sort of man. He was very particular about what he did. He had a profession working as a registrar, so he registered thousands and thousands of births, marriages and deaths.

So he was meticulous with record keeping. He would have been horrified to know that the government was so careless when it came to thinking about the most vulnerable, despite having done pandemic preparedness exercises, so carefully ignored by Mr Hancock and his colleagues, when it came to the crunch, they didn't look at what they knew. They didn't look back at what we already knew and could have used to help protect people. and there'd been some form of apology from Mr Hancock or taking responsibility for how you describe what happened and also what was accepted by the court in the judicial review. Could you have forgiven him? Would you have a different view of him? Because many also getting in touch this morning say this will not change my view of him, him going on a reality TV show. Other actions would have done.

I certainly wanted him to stand up and take responsibility. I think somebody who accepts a job as Secretary of State should take responsibility for their actions and be big enough and bold enough to do that. Clearly, I see him as weak. I see him as just basically pathetic. But that's why I also hold ITV responsible for this. And in terms of those who also would say, zooming out a little, that it was a very stressful time, ministers were working, as were health professionals, around the clock. It was very early on in the pandemic. Mistakes can be made. What do you say to them we rely on these people not to make such basic mistakes the hospital discharge policy was blatantly crazy um i have a degree in microbiology phd in virology i knew enough to know that that didn't make any sense you'd expect people in care homes to be

protected um you know for people going in there to be quarantined in some way. There was nothing, nothing was done at all and that was absolutely appalling. And it wasn't the only problem either. Mr Hancock's been found to have broken the law regarding PPE procurement and VIP lane, the appointment of people to the testing trace programme which cost billions and billions. All of this has got to come out in the public inquiry. This is not the time to be performing on television for entertainment. And your views? I mean, of course, I'm just thinking the fact we've also heard from Boris Johnson this week. He was at COP. He was talking, of course, you know, doing a more political role.

He's still an MP talking about the environment. Do you have a similar view of the former prime minister or is this mainly around the health secretary? Oh, definitely of Johnson too. You know, they were there together. And Richie Sunak was the chancellor, I suppose, to bring up as well. Yeah, I mean, obviously we don't know if he was involved in any decisions around COVID, but, you know, it was a time when some decisions were taken for political purposes, not using the best scientific understanding.

And they chose not to be careful at a time when they needed to that and have talked about the fact that they were working incredibly hard and trying to do their best to paraphrase some of those statements that we have heard. But as you say, there is an inquiry at the moment. You've launched as part of Bereave Families for Justice. There is a petition going about Matt Hancock appearing this evening because there are those who just don't think it's appropriate. But then there are those like yourself and like one of our listeners who are incredibly obsessed about this how's that petition doing do you do you see it having any effect i mean this is just going ahead now isn't it it appears it's going ahead and i think you know really it would have been better for him not to have accepted it for itv not even to have thought about inviting him on his position in government

at that time and his role as a working MP apparently now says he shouldn't be there but really I hope that people just don't watch the programme what makes this programme work is people watching because that drives the advertising revenue for the programme and the biggest hit will be for people just to switch it off. Do you usually watch it? Actually, no, I've rarely seen it. It's not something I particularly enjoy. I'm afraid that a lot of the people that go on there, I don't even know who they are.

And this is a face I definitely would want to watch. No, well, I was just intrigued if it was something for you, you were having to take a stand against it from your normal watching habits. But a lot of people won't know who he is. That's the other part of this, which in some ways he sounds like he wants to change and talks about in terms of how he could make an impact with some campaigns.

You've made your views very clear on that. The inquiry is ongoing into our response to the pandemic. What are your hopes just finally for that? Cathy, have we still got you there? Perhaps not. I did, apologies for that. Slight freeze on the line there, but we will, I'm sure,

talk to Cathy at another point there. But you were listening to Dr. Cathy Gardner, one of the people very much angry about this evening, but also angry with the producers of that programme and talking about this from the perspective of having lost her father and having taken a judicial review to the High Court and won. More of your messages coming in. Matt Hancock should be sacked as an MP, do unpaid work, then at St Thomas' Hospital, just across the water from Parliament,

where real work goes on 24-7. Shameful behaviour, self-serving and without shame, says Lim, which speaks to the question I was also asking about views of politics and politicians at the moment and about who wants to be one. Matt Hancock believes this TV programme will enable him to reach out to younger and disengaged people. Well, he has so far failed to reach out and engage

with his actual constituents. And any money will go to a local hospice or should go to a local hospice, reads this message. As a West Suffolk constituent, this is Matt Hancock's constituency, who's never received any contact, reply, response from Matt Hancock. This is diabolical and unacceptable.

And we cannot apparently request or demand a by-election. He is a hopeless constituency MP, says Jane, who's listening. Good morning to you. It's an appalling decision, reads this message from Dr Anne, who's got in touch, deeply insulting to all of the bereaved. And to your views about politicians and how this is playing in and also around the resignation, the first resignation of Rishi Sunak's cabinet with Gavin Williamson, Sir Gavin Williamson going last night after accusations of bullying, which he refutes.

Matt Hancock is yet another politician interested in publicity and feathering their own nest. His constituents should remove him. We just heard from one. Jeanette says, when did Matt Hancock become a celebrity? He's a sacked public servant. And another one here with a slightly different point of view. I think people are going to love making the man suffer. And some of you are very upset we're even talking about this. But we wanted to hear from Cathy in particular about what the response has been from those who lost loved ones during the pandemic and took legal action as she did. Going across the pond, though, results are being declared in the

US midterm elections. Republicans currently have the most seats in the House of Representatives, but it's still unclear which party could gain control of the Senate. If the Democrats lose either house, it risks Joe Biden's agenda being blocked by Republicans. And there are several tight Senate races. Georgia, Arizona, Nevada have yet to be called. Abortion has played a role in these elections with the overturning of the Roe v. Wade ruling. As you'll remember earlier in the year, a major moment in America and its history and a lot of debate about that since. The first batch of exit polls show that for three in 10 Americans, abortion was the most important issue. The Democrats ran campaigns that focused on abortion rights and poll as the most trusted party with this issue.

It's been reported that the party spent a total of $320 million on adverts highlighting the issue, 10 times more than the $31 million it spent on the ones about how to tackle inflation, which is at a 40-year high in America. Has it been overplayed? Amanda Taub is a writer for The New York Times and joins me now. A spot of analysis as this is still unfolding. Amanda, good morning.

Good morning. Thanks for having me. Has it been overplayed, this particular issue? I think it hasn't. As you said, polling suggests that this is incredibly important to voters. It's one of the most important issues to voters. And I think one way that you can really see how much this issue moves the needle is by looking at the five states where there were abortion measures to be voted on directly on the ballot. And there abortion was, you know, abortion rights, so protection of reproductive freedom, which was phrased in various ways in these different ballot measures, was significantly more popular than pretty much any politician. So Kentucky, which had a potential ban on the ballot, is a very red state. It went to Donald Trump by an overwhelming majority in the last presidential election.

And yet that measure banning that would have banned abortion was roundly defeated. Michigan, where it only went for Biden in the last election by about 52 percent and previously it went for Trump in 2016. They just passed a constitutional amendment that protects reproductive freedom. And so I think what that shows you is that this is an issue that actually goes beyond normal partisan divisions and is getting people to, you know, step out of their kind of party affiliation in their voting decisions, which is very rare in the United States. Although that's been directly refuted by an unnamed former senior White House official who used to work with Joe Biden, speaking to the Daily Telegraph,

has said, we miscalculated that voters were going to be motivated by Roe and threats to democracy itself. Those quite obviously are not effective with those voters that we needed to connect with. It's more the rallying cry for the base. So not getting people across was a read on that on someone who obviously cares about Joe Biden. with the caveat that obviously a lot of these races are still being tallied and we won't have detailed breakdowns of issues and how they related to turnout and particularly how they related to turnout among certain key groups, such as women and particularly young voters. But I don't see much evidence that this was bad for Democrats in that way. You know, all things being equal, we would have expected Republicans to do very well in this midterm race. It's normal for the other party to pick up a lot of seats after a presidential election. And in this particular case, because of inflation and the other kind of major challenges that Biden has been facing. I think, you know, looking at this in a complete vacuum, you would have expected the Republicans to do better than

they did. Well, as you said, it's still being revealed some of this. We were just interested because we had heard about, well, certainly the Republican side's playing down this issue and the Democrats side, we heard from both in the run up, saying this would be a key issue. You seem to think it has been and others are differing on this and there'll be a full postmortem on what was played and how it was played and on what it tells us. But we wanted to get a snapshot from you. There are also, I should say, some firsts for women here in the results that we do have. Republican candidate Katie Britt will be elected as Alabama's first woman to serve in the U.S. Senate. Sarah Huckabee Sanders is to become Arkansas's first female governor. Are these significant moments as well that we should take the time to think about, even if we don't know the individuals?

I think it's always significant when women cross that sort of line for representation. I mean, you know, Alabama has been a state from the beginning. And the fact that they have never elected a woman to the Senate, despite women being half the population, you know, suggests that there was a serious handicap for women in politics. And Katie Britt won a very hard fought primary as well. But I would distinguish between women getting elected to office and the sort of feminist agenda, which is often not what these Republican candidates in particular, not only are they not espousing it once they're in office, they often run actively against it. And so, you know, Katie Britt, for

instance, she's pro-life. She's, you know, actively opposed to abortion rights. This is not an issue where she's out of step with her party at all. And she's also run a very kind of longstanding playbook for conservative politicians in America who are women, which is to frame herself as very squarely within traditional gender roles. So she presents herself as a mother, as a wife. She's said that she's going to the Senate as a mama on the move. And I think that that is a type of politics that has a long tradition in America even though this hasn't set a woman from Alabama to the Senate before. Although some would not say that that flies in the face of the feminism to which they ascribe some women.

It would be where they are as well which we shouldn't lose sight of. In this country and we're talking this morning a bit about what the view of politics is especially as women would you go into it and how it appeals or not at the moment with a view of what's going on in our cabinet and our government. Thank you very much for a snapshot, for a take on it as we know it with these midterms and the results still coming in. Amanda Taub there, a writer for The New York Times. Thank you very much. A message here going with that theme from Helen, who says, going back to the issue about Matt Hancock, the former health secretary,

appearing on television this evening in a reality TV show. ITV needs to end, I'm a celebrity. The eating of live insects alone is disgusting and Matt Hancock should lose his seat. Ali in Leicester said, good morning to you. Politicians should be banned from making any money from their elected positions. They are not celebrities.

They are elected to represent the people and their constituents and are trying desperately to be famous and make money for themselves. People need to vote for younger politicians, get rid of the old men in suits who are only lining their pockets. Frankly, it's shocking the behaviour of government representatives in this day and age.

A very dim view there across the piece. There are others who would say, you know, I'm not doing any such thing. And this is the aberration is not the norm. I do often watch I'm a Celebrity reads this message from a listener from one of you. But I'm actively choosing not to watch it this year due to Matt Hancock being on. And Jane, a bigger point, taking a step back. Thank you for this message. Are we in danger of attracting MPs who are self-publicists? The obvious benefits of televised Parliament are also encouraging a high media profile, maybe not the best criteria for intelligent and careful decision making. And others getting in touch talking about the fact that MPs find the time to write books and publicise those while in office. And so it goes on. Keep your messages coming in. It's fascinating to hear your responses and your view of the role of being an elected official and perhaps what shouldn't be happening or should be happening if you are. But over the last few weeks on the programme, we've been talking

about the power and pain of female friendship. A Woman's Hour listener we're calling Nina contacted us. She was listening to one of the episodes exploring whether our friendships can be repaired, and it really chimed with her. Our reporter Jo Morris met Nina at her home to hear her story. I was just struck by the timeliness of it all because I had literally just received this letter and I thought, my goodness, this is exactly the issue

you were talking about. To hear Emma Barnett just thought, my goodness, this is exactly the issue you were talking about. To hear Emma Barnett just say, you know, reconnecting with a friend that you haven't been in touch with for a long time, should you even bother? It was the should you even bother? I had a letter, you know, an actual physical letter come through the post. I have it here. So take me back to the moment you found it. Where were you? I saw from the room that I work in that the post had come. And I saw this actually handwritten letter to me. And I opened up and my husband was home.

And I said, you'll never guess who I got a letter from. To be honest, I was absolutely numb. Just numb. It was from this old friend who I had been very, very close to when our daughters were little. And we were friends for, I think, possibly about 12, 13 years. And then our daughters started going in different directions. They grew up to be quite different people. But we had, I think, actually verbally affirmed we were going to stay friends and that wasn't going to affect us. And, you know, we would still be close. Anyway, then her daughter, my friend's daughter, got really quite unwell.

And it was quite all-consuming, I think, which I understand. But usually, at least my instinct is when you have a problem or something that's so upsetting in life, you turn to your friends. And instead, what happened is that I was just cut off. And I was informed by email. Email, and this was in the days before email was really used personally in the same way. This is about maybe a little bit more than 15 years ago. You know, I didn't contact my friends by email. That would have been quite an odd thing to do.

And I was informed that that was the only way. She would not have telephone discussions with me. She would only communicate through email. And it really was out of nowhere. I had been aware of what was going on with the daughter and I cared about her daughter. You know, I'd known her since she was a baby. Just suddenly. How much have you wrestled with trying to find the answer of why you were cut off? Who knew how to interpret it? I was either not a good enough friend to come to, or I don't know why. It was just absolute severance.

And I think I emailed back and said, look, you know, I'm not happy with this. You know, why so formal? Why do we have to do it this way? And I don't think I got a response. And that was the end of it. And you haven't seen her since? No, we've had no contact. And what impact has this had on you?

Well, at the time, it was for several years, it was excruciating. I mean, one of the reasons, I suppose, is because I guess you can tell, but I'm not from this country. And neither of us were, you know, both of us were American. And I felt I certainly felt a very deep connection to her. And you know, there were things in our background that were quite similar. It was just like having one of the few familiar things in my life just cut off. Why do you think it's important to talk about the thornier side of female friendship? Seems to happen a lot. And you do hear people, you know, say, oh, you know, we've been fast friends since childhood. And we're always doing things together. And we got married

at the same time. And we had children together. And I really, really envy them. I really envy them. But it hasn't been my experience. I think with anybody I've known, there's always been something. But you do come through it. But this one, I wasn't even given the chance to come through. Have you got any photos of you two together as well when the kids were little? Yes, actually. Do you want to come with me? I'd love to.

You have to come in the hall. So we're on your stairway, halfway up your stairway. That's me. That's her. Oh. You're both holding your babies. Yep. So this is... That's her daughter.

So when was this taken? Must have been 27 years ago. Where were you? In our back garden. You're both holding your babies? Yep. Yep. When they were very little and they used to take naps at the same time, get about two hours grace and you know we'd have a long talk and it was it was very very nice. So she's still on your wall? She's still on the wall but then again my parents are dead and they're still on the wall.

Those cats are dead and they're still on the wall too. It never occurred to me to take her off the wall. I mean, you know, who cares really? I really effectively killed this inside me. I have loads of lovely friends now. And I have not experienced this since. And, you know, it's literally like, oh, I suppose, opening up a cold case file, you know, something that the police have buried because they, you know,

they couldn't find the answer, and that was that. I turned to my husband, and I just said, I don't care about this anymore. I just don't care. This is dead. So will you describe the letter to me? It's quite anodyne, actually. It's just... So how does it start? It says, this is a bit of a flash from the past, and I think of you often and thought I must write.

It was a long time ago that my daughter was ill and I cut myself off from people, and she's come a long way so that's how it started I would love to hear from you and perhaps reconnect I have such lovely memories of our times together and feel I need to apologize for losing touch will you read the end of it as well there were very difficult times for us but it's amazing how far along we've all come fondest wishes. Maybe she did cut herself off from other people. I have no way of knowing that. All I know is that I would be very surprised if she didn't have any friends for 15 years.

What are you going to do? Well, we exchanged some texts and I said, I will contact you from this week onwards onwards so that's what I'm going to do. If somebody writes you something that is at least warm or the intention is warm I'm not going to reject that. That's not the person I am. I'm not the type of person that says sorry you lost your chance stuff you but I feel I was done wrong by how do you feel you were done wrong by I was cut off it wasn't just losing touch and I was very very miserable about it for a long long time and that's not something I can just totally put aside and not let her know. So we will be meeting up, I imagine, in the next week or so. I'm kind of perplexed as to how to go about it. I imagine, in a way, I'll just feel my way there,

but has this affected how you feel about making other friends? Did it make you wary for a bit? No, not at all. How, did it make you wary for a bit? No, not at all. How much did it make you question yourself? Oh, yes, I did. You wonder how important you are. You wonder how significant you are at all. Especially, I think, if you've had one marriage that hasn't worked.

You know, you think, gosh, am I so flawed in some way that people don't stick with me. Did it make you think that you'd done something wrong? It made me feel like I hadn't forged the closeness that I thought I had forged and it makes you feel like you've been deluded. I'm not valuable enough to hang on to and that that is terribly upsetting Did it make you feel lonely? Yes, yes, it did Do you think that you were sympathetic enough to your friend?

Yes, I do and I really was very concerned and I think I said in this email or in the note that I left please tell me what's going on. It wasn't, you know, that I was being a gossip and I just wanted to find out what was going on. I really was very concerned because it was quite severe, obviously quite severe.

Do you think that you were a good friend? If my friends need me, I am always here. And I would hope they know that. Do you think that maybe she couldn't cope with what was happening with her daughter and she just shut everything down? I absolutely do think that's what happened. It wasn't just, look, I'm up to my neck.

I'll be in touch when I can be. That would have been one thing. You know, my husband and I went through our issues too. You always go through issues with your children. Unfortunately, probably too many people knew about them. I mean, that's my way is that, you know, unload. But whatever it was, I didn't have what she needed. What do you think your friend thought when she looked at your family? That's interesting. Yes, at the time we weren't having any problems.

I've got to be honest. That is possibly something she found a bit painful. My daughter was flourishing, and maybe that was difficult for her to see. It could be. She says, I think of you often and thought I must write. You know, I wish I could have helped her through that horrible time. I'm about to leave for my ex-friend's house in about 10 minutes. I'm very nervous. My husband asked me what I'm going to say. And I guess the one thing I am going to ask is why now? What prompted this after 15 years of no communication whatsoever?

I will let you know afterwards what transpires. Well, I went and saw my was-ex-friend, who I guess is my friend again. It was really, really lovely. We just sort of slotted in very easily. We didn't hug when I came in. I think we were both treading carefully. She explained her position, which had been that when her daughter got ill, she just absolutely could not talk about it. And she became very isolated.

I did explain how it had affected me and that I was wary of rekindling this, but I'm very glad I did. I'm glad she reached know, she reached out and she said she was sorry. And I said, yeah, great, let's just go on. I did ask, you know, why now? And she said, well, you've always just kept

popping into my head. I'm in two minds as to whether to have this go out on the radio, because it did feel quite private. But I think I will tell her that when I received her letter, there was something so topical on Woman's Hour, I was moved to contact. I think I should tell her and ask her if it's okay. Well, Nina's friend said it was okay. And I'm able to report that their friendship is rekindled. So that is how that ended and has rebegun, if you like. From Nina, thank you very much, as we're calling her, a listener to the programme and someone who was inspired by something she was listening to. So thank you for being in touch with us. And you know, I always would like to hear from you.

And it's true. It's important to hear from you and share your stories and put them on air. Well, let's talk about something that some of you may be caring about, but the two women I'm about to talk to would like more of you to care about. I think it's safe to say. No Women's Rugby World Cup for years, then two come along at once. Not only do we have the Women's Rugby World Cup for years, then two come along at once. Not only do we have the Women's Rugby Union World Cup going on in New Zealand, but the Women's Rugby League World Cup too, postponed from last year because of COVID, which we're

hosting here in the UK. And tonight, the England team take on Papua New Guinea at Headingley, having already beaten Canada and Brazil. The tournament's also been described as the most inclusive, not least because of the women's, men's and wheelchair teams all playing at the same time, but also because of the unique way the volunteering programme is being run around it. More on that in a moment.

But getting more women involved and interested in playing rugby league is one of the jobs of star player Jodie Cunningham, who's also the official women's ambassador for the Rugby League World Cup 2021, as it's called. And despite playing in tonight's match, is on the line now alongside England captain Emily Rudge from their team hotel in Leeds. Good morning. Good morning. In unison there, perfect unison. Thank you for making the time this morning. Jodie, let me come to you first.

You know, what is the appeal and how is it going? Because we've seen what's happened with football and the women's game. Yeah, I mean, the profile and the visibility of this tournament is like nothing we've ever experienced before in Women's Rugby League. You know, all games live across the bbc is huge for us just getting the opportunity to get in front of more fans hopefully inspire more young girls to to want to play the game and

you know myself and emily you know we've been best mates since we were at high school and emily actually got me playing rugby league and i don't think we could have ever dreamed of the opportunity that we've got now and our first world cups were a million miles away from this one so yeah in regards to sort of the women's element of the tournament it's been fantastic so far and I think the viewership and the attendances at games have already blown any records that have been there for women's rugby league out the water so it's really exciting for us and hopefully we can just keep keep going really strong keep the momentum and and hopefully yeah get to a final and inspire lots of young girls to want to play rugby league. Yeah, I mean, I do feel bad that I'm speaking to you this morning, but a typical match day probably doesn't always include a radio interview.

So thank you for doing it. Emily, good morning to you. What is a typical day like? What's it going to be like for you, the rest of today and the team? So it's pretty chill today. I think that's one of the reasons we're OK to do an interview because it is pretty relaxed. We're kicking off, I should say, at 7.30 tonight. So we've got quite a bit of downtime prior to that. We will leave early. We're only 15 minutes away from heading there,

but we'll leave probably about half past five and get there and do all our preparation at the stadium. Prior to that, it's just about relaxing and we'll have a pre-match meal here at the hotel. Then, like I say, we'll set off about half five and get ourselves ready for the game. Sounds like a lovely day. Have you got any weird rituals?

I've personally not got any weird rituals um I've personally not got any weird rituals there is some girls who do um who have you know certain things that you have to do in a certain order in the changing room um and they're very like superstitious about that but no personally I just um want to get myself feeling good for the game and I'll do whatever it takes to make that happen I love hearing what order people have to do certain things in and what they have to touch and eat beforehand. You also have a new patron, I should say, the Princess of Wales, who you all met, I believe, at the weekend. How do you think that could help with profile? Jodie?

I think it's brilliant for the women's game. Sorry, yes yes go on yeah sorry i yeah i think it's brilliant for the women's game to um and it was really great for us as a team to you know have the honor of meeting the princess um at our last game at um so at wigan so yeah that was um massive for the sport and i think it's give us you know sort of a good profile and and people who maybe wouldn't usually be looking at rugby league um were looking and were sort of interested in in what was going on so you know we we're really keen to to raise the profile of the game and get more people and younger girls playing the sport like Jodie said um and anything that helps to do that

you know is is always a positive for us. and on what i was talking about going towards the volunteering side of things jody to come back to you i know you're also the ambassador for the charity community integrated care which is championing something called inclusive volunteering which is backed by uk sport and sport england how does that differ from traditional volunteering what's different about this? Yeah I think the World Cup and in partnership with Community Into Great Care have really paved the way in in regards to inclusive volunteering which is basically all around getting individuals who otherwise probably wouldn't have the opportunities to volunteer that exposure and that opportunity so people with additional needs learning difficulties autism and community into great care are a huge social care charity across england work with lots

of different different people and basically when when the partnership was made with the world cup it was all about how do we give them real meaningful opportunities not just at tournament time but in the build-up so part of my job working full-time for the world cup was was leading this inclusive volunteering program and it literally was the highlight of my day and we had so many projects in the build-up like we had the media club photography club we did a world cup themed garden at newton hospital we had soap making we had everything you could possibly think of cookery classes themed around the nations and there was just anything and everything that could inspire someone or

engage someone's passions and interests so that they didn't have to love rugby league to want to be part of this inclusive volunteering program they just had to find their own passion and lots of individuals matt price is one of the individuals who didn't know he liked photography and since has found a real love of it it's a big hobby of his now and he's been a photographer at world cup games so all those confidence building opportunities has meant that tournament time now they're having real meaningful chances to be official photographers in a world cup work in the hospitality area working fan zones all these different things that you know anybody would love the opportunities to do and i've inclusive volunteers are showing that you know it's not about what they can't do it's absolutely about

what they can do and they do an absolute brilliant job at it and you know hopefully they'll be filled with confidence now to go on and do similar things after the tournament well thank you for for putting us in the picture on that jodie emily stay with us if you can while we hear from a woman who's among the hundreds of those people with disabilities, with care and support needs, who are volunteering at this tournament. Hi, my name's Jenny Robinson. I'm an inclusive volunteer for the Rugby World Cup. I'm a wheelchair user.

I have a condition called Ellis-Danlos Syndrome, which means all my joints dislocate very easily. And I also have learning disabilities. And I've been getting involved with the Rugby World Cup as a volunteer, doing match day reports, photography. And I've just been having a brilliant time. When you're in a wheelchair and you have a support worker with you, a lot of people turn you down because they're worried that you're going to be dangerous volunteering with other people. So I've been trying to volunteer for such a long time because I always say that my legs don't work but my mind still works. So I like to keep my mind busy even if I can't walk I can still help people in my own way and I've been trying so hard to try and find volunteering opportunities and then my partner plays for the learning disability super

league and he was the one who told me it just means so much that somebody wants other disabled people to volunteer because a lot of us have been pushed away or they just say oh just sit down there and just watch the game but we can do more than just sit down and watch we can interview people and greet people when they're coming in. You've also been designing the kit haven't you the warm-up kit for the women's team? Yeah communityated Care asked if anybody would like to design the England warm-up kit. So I thought that would be a great opportunity. So me and my partner, Declan, he's got learning disabilities and autism. And we both did it together.

So he did his own design and I did my own design. And it means a lot that so many of us got to have all our ideas put together into the warm-up kit. And then seeing them on BBC wearing the kit, it's just amazing to see them wearing it and having the charity on the T-shirt. It just makes me really proud. And the women's team will be wearing it tonight, won't they? Yeah, the women's team will be wearing the warm-up kit tonight and I know everybody's going to be looking forward to seeing it again because every time it's been put on BBC everyone on Twitter goes crazy. Now you also led out one of the teams explain how that came about?

Well I got invited to go onto the pitch and hold the Irish team's flag and lead the Irish team out. So I was in the tunnel and all the Irish team was coming in after they'd done the warm-up. And they saw me holding the flag and they were all tapping me on the shoulders saying, well done. And I'm saying, good luck. And I was just looking at all these players thinking, this is amazing. I've never been down there before because I've been wanting to for such a long time. I've got red hair and I've got a lot of Irish in me. So it meant a lot to hold the Irish team's flag as well.

Now, there's a media club as well, isn't there, where you sit alongside the sports reporters and take part in the press conferences? Oh, that's correct. What I've been doing in the media club is they've been training us on Zoom and we've been learning lots of new skills of what it means to be a reporter, what the media's like, articles, doing vlogs and I know that without having the media club there I would have really struggled to do all my volunteering so it's given me confidence to talk to others and just go up to different people at matches and interview them and it's really given me a lot of confidence but it's also made me feel like I hope that one day I would love to do that as a job and it's really been an amazing thing to speak

to so many different reporters we've done lots of interviews we did one on Sunday with the Australia's wheelchair team and we did a Q&A and that was brilliant because when you can ask your own questions you get to find out things that you want to know as well and I like to be nosy as well so that helps as well I just hope now people see us volunteering and then they allow us to do it more in future other games and other sports and it just means the world. Volunteer there, Jenny Robinson on her

role and what it has meant and is meaning to her and many others. UK Sports has told us it will promote and advocate this model of what's been described as inclusive volunteering across many more major sporting events in the future. Still on the line, Jodie Cunningham, England Rugby League star and the team captain, Emily Rudge, in their hotel in Leeds

before they play another match this evening. I have to say, we've just received a message from Catherine who says, I'm delighted to hear women's are covering the tournament. My nine-year-old daughter and I watched the team on Saturday. It was inspiring stuff. Cues of fans, including us, wanting selfies and autographs after the tournament. My nine-year-old daughter and I watched the team on Saturday. It was inspiring stuff. Cues of fans, including us, wanting selfies and autographs after the game with the women players, talking about you both and your team as role models.

And just to go back to the volunteering side of things, it hopefully will make a difference. And I suppose that's part of the legacy of this tournament, which you're hoping to create. Is that what you're thinking at the moment, Jodie? Yeah, absolutely. It's a huge part of it. This tournament is inclusive in so many different ways. And I think the volunteering is a perfect example of that.

You don't have to want to pick up a ball and play rugby league to be involved in our amazing sport. And volunteering is a perfect way. And Jenny is a fantastic volunteer when I worked at the World Cup I actually interviewed her for the volunteering role and she absolutely smashed the interview out the park she's a fantastic volunteer she's a fantastic person and she's added so much value to rugby league over the last year or so that she's been volunteering much wider than the tournament so yeah I think it's a huge impact on Jenny as a person and has given her lots of opportunities to develop her skills and hopefully build her confidence but the value that that's added to the sport is massive and I know already that

through what the work we've done at the World Cup some of the volunteers have got involved with the World Gymnastics Championships they've got involved with some of the Euros the Women's Euros all through the partnership that we created and sort of trying to include other sports and other major major events that we had relationships with so hopefully this becomes the normal and everybody has an inclusive volunteering program included in the whole tournament plan so yeah it's brilliant and jenny's fantastic and i think she spoke amazingly well there well thank you very much Emily very quickly what's a hair platter an unofficial hair platter for this evening something to do with your your hair tell us yeah so basically because um we play in rugby a lot of the girls like to have the hair off the

face and a really good way to do that is to plait it. I don't know if you girls can plait their hair. Oh, no, the line, the line just went somewhere. OK, there's apparently a team plaiting and there's a bit of coordination going on. See if you can spot it tonight, England's match against Papua New Guinea on BBC Two from seven o'clock. Sorry there that the line cut out. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.