Woman's Hour - Women's Rugby World Cup, Amy Gledhill, National Care Service, Russian ballet

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

This morning the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, has proposed "a new National Care Service", as part of the government's plan to shake-up adult social care with increased funding and an independent commission headed by crossbench peer Baroness Louise Casey. As adult social care is a predominantly female work force - and women make up the majority of people carrying out unpaid caring responsibilities - what impact could these changes have? Kylie Pentelow is joined by Melanie Williams, President of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK.The Women’s Rugby World Cup is being held later this year in England. Whilst Scotland and Wales will be competing, England currently sit at the top of the world rankings – with many hoping this could be women’s rugby’s ‘Lionesses moment’. To discuss whether this is likely and how best to ensure the tournament has a positive legacy, Kylie Pentelow is joined by Fi Tomas, women’s sport reporter at the Telegraph, and Christina Philippou, an associate professor in accounting and sport finance at the University of Portsmouth. Comedian Amy Gledhill is about to start a new residency at Soho Theatre in London with her award-winning solo show, Make Me Look Fit On The Poster. She joins Kylie to talk about writing autobiographical comedy, romance, bin bags... and why she is hoping her work will make people think as well as laugh.Juhea Kim’s first novel Beasts of a Little Land was set in Korea and covered the conflicts of the 20th Century. Her second novel, City of Night Birds, explores a wildly different subject, modern Russian ballet, and follows the story of talented ballerina Natalia as she finds fame and struggles to cope with the demands of international stardom. Juhea joins Kylie to discuss how her own experiences as a dancer inspired her novel.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Rebecca Myatt

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Hello, this is Kylie Pentelow, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Thank you very much for your company this morning. We have plenty coming up in the next hour. Now, as you may have heard in the news bulletin just now, government plans for an overhaul of social care have been delayed until 2028. Care providers say it's too long to wait for vital services, which are already on their

knees. Many of you may be considering care for elderly parents or maybe for yourself. So what do you think needs to happen? Or in fact, if you're a care worker yourself, we want to hear what it's like. Do get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note. The number is 03700 100 444. Also coming up, we'll be looking at one of the biggest sporting events of the year, the Women's Rugby World Cup 2025, and asking if it'll change the profile of the game. Plus, her first award-winning novel was about the conflicts in Korea in the 20th century. Now the writer Joo Hye Kim has turned to ballet for her second. She'll be telling me why she's pivoted her focus to Russia.

And you wouldn't normally hear comedy called sensitive, but that's exactly how stand-up Amy Gledhill has been described. We'll be talking to her about how she manages to bring difficult topics into her shows, but still, of course, making people laugh along the way. But first, you will have heard this morning about those government plans to shake up adult social care. The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, has promised a new national care service with increased funding and an independent commission headed by cross-bench peer, Baroness Louise Casey.

Speaking on the Today programme this morning, Wes Streeting set out his plans for the national care service. He was asked by Nick Robinson just what that means. What do we need the social care system to look like to meet the needs of older and disabled people here in the 21st century? And then secondly, how do we both design and pay for that service? What is the right balance between the individual, the family and the state collectively through society, both in terms of how we deliver care

and also how we pay for it what's the balance of delivery forgive me mr strating it's your phrase national care service and it was a phrase as i pointed out a labour government in the past use 15 years ago but this morning you say you need a commission to tell you what you mean by your own phrase well no that's not quite right, Nick. I mean, I was clear ahead of the general election, actually, that for me, a national care service is about national standards, consistent access to high quality care for older and disabled people everywhere in the country. That was Wes Streeting there. Well, adult social care is a predominantly female workforce. Women make up over 80% of staff working in the sector. They also make up the majority of people carrying out unpaid caring responsibilities too.

10% of women and girls in England provide unpaid care. That's nearly 3 million in total. So what impact could these changes have on them and the many people who rely on adult social care, either for themselves or for a relative? Well, to discuss this, I'm joined by Melanie Williams, Director of Adult Social Care in Nottinghamshire and President of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services. And also by Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK, which is a national charity supporting unpaid carers. Melanie, if I can start with you. Thanks for your company here today. What's been your reaction to today's news?

Well, good morning, Carly, and thank you for letting me speak on this. And you're quite right to note that this is a particular issue for us women. So my immediate reaction is the timescale. So Secretary of State did call me yesterday and I was really pleased to hear him give commitment to interim report findings in a year. But for me, it's what is the scope of those findings? Because quite honestly, we were promised a 10 year plan to run alongside in parallel. It's really important. It's in parallel to the NHS plan but that work has already started so the NHS is really gaining momentum about the changes

they want to achieve so I'm really interested to know is the commission a part of that plan or is the commission the plan and we'll have to wait for three years for the plan and then ultimately some people may not experience some change to the quality of their life for 14 years. So that's my immediate reaction. Well, Struising has said that the public services are on their knees. He's acknowledged that. He said that so much more needs to be done, but that the process would take time. So do you acknowledge that this kind of long term plan needs to be put in place? That time needs to be taken to get a system that actually lasts? For some elements, I think there are a number of elements to reform that we can get on with without

needing that long-term plan. So I'm sure Helen will touch on this, but a carer strategy, a cross-government carer strategy that we heard about at the Labour Party conference, be one of those areas of reform and tackling unpaid care we can do much about our workforce strategy so you mentioned wanting to hear from care workers there's a lot we can do and the sector united actually in the summer to develop a draft workforce strategy to talk about the things that don't require investment but the areas that require some investment that could really change the experience of the care workers, how we support them, how we just support development, and how we sustain the recruitment and retention of this important workforce.

And then not least, some of the models of social care support. There's lots of evidence out there from people with lived experience about what can make a difference to their lives now. There's a lot of things, Carly, that we could be getting on with and reforming now that don't need a commission, but certainly things like paying for care, they're really knotty issues that have undermined reform in the last 30 years. To me, that is right for somebody like Louise Casey, leading a commission that's intended to implement. So this resulting in a bill that delivers some change, I think, is the right approach.

There's so much more we could be doing now to tackle the quality of people's lives. There are some shorter term measures that that the government are putting in place 86 million pounds to uh boost the disabled facilities grant this year that that's a grant to help people adapt their homes isn't it for for their needs will that help to me that sort of feels a little bit like a tiny sticking plaster. So that would impact on probably around 2,000 adaptations for people. So that's quite a small amount. So if you think of just Nottinghamshire, so I support 13,000 people with long-term care needs, about 20,000 people we have contact with in a typical year. So that's quite a small amount of people. What it doesn't do

is tackle the impact of the national insurance contributions, the blended living wage package, and some of the complexity of need. We know that people need more care now than they did three years ago. So it kind of doesn't cover those costs of care in the shorter term. Can we just briefly go back to basics? And can you explain who adult social care is actually for? Yes, adult social care is about supporting people to live a good life in a place they call home. So that's what adult social care is about.

If we think about the just short of a million people that draw upon adult social care support, they're kind of in two groups. So one group is working age adults. so it might be somebody of my age. I mainly support 24 hours a day, or I mainly just a little bit of support with a bit of prompting and support some of my daily living. The other group of people that we support are people who are older, and some of those people have some health needs. There are many people that have social care support, where really what they're needing is about their social life. So it's quite distinct from health care. So in short, that's what adult social care does. And it works in a whole range of ways. So we provide support to people maybe who are detained in mental health hospitals or in prison. We support people who are living in

their own home. It's like a range of settings and a range of things that we do to support people who are living in their own home is like a range of settings and a range of things that we do to support people to enjoy that good life I mentioned. And who pays for it? That's a really good question. So it will really depend on the individual, which is what really complicates us thinking about what the long-term plan would look like and how we tackle some of these issues. So for example, if I, you know, I'm in my early 50s, so if I have a mental health difficulty, a lifelong mental health difficulty, and I need support from somebody to help me manage my day-to-day living, to prompt me to get up and to find work and do the things that are important to me, I would make a contribution to that from my own income it's very likely that my care would be funded by the council so council tax would be a contribution to that so the council tax that we all make to our local councils because social care is led by local councils that's how the policy currently works but if I had my parents who were older it may be that

my parents had some health needs as they were ageing some may not and they again would be funding their own care and doing that quite independently so there may be an element of NHS funding that somebody receives but again mainly the person would be making a contribution to their care and if they're a younger person again it would be the same thing so maybe I I have a learning disability. I need quite a high degree of support. I'm paying for my social care. That may be alongside other things like housing support or DWP support. There may be a whole range of things that someone's accessing. The social care predominantly is paid by council I think it's fair to say. Why do you think it is that more women do it? And how can they be supported in your view? I think part of womanhood is part of caring so you know I was drawn to care I did care work in my early career some 30 years ago and I really

felt like I wanted to give back and I think many women feel that they want to be supporting others so I think it's a profession that we're attracted to and it's also become a low pay workforce over time so when I started 30 years ago, I was paid more than the national living wage. I think over time, as we've reduced our investment into adult social care, and it's competed with other public services, we've paid people less and less because of those reductions. It's become, unfortunately, a low pay workforce, which then will mean some providers will be in competition with retail or hospitality and other industries that also pay low wage but it's

amazing work so the care workers or social workers whoever it is that's working occupational therapists they tend to be working alone so they do an amazing job going out there with very little day-to-day immediate support or supervision, making decisions that really impact on somebody's life. And at times that can be whether somebody is safe or not and can really dictate their outcome, actually. It's really important work. Let's bring in Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK. Helen, Carers UK is a national charity, as we said, supporting unpaid carers. There are 4.7 million unpaid carers in England, 3 million of which are women. So this leads on from what

we were just talking about. So how do you think these proposals that we've been hearing about could affect them? Well, I mean, it's very difficult to say, isn't it? I think we have to welcome the fact that this government are looking to reform social care long term and looking to have cross-party consensus so we actually get the reform that we need. I think the issue, though, as Melanie has already said, is the timeline. So the short term is where we see there isn't sufficient funding, there are massive problems for social care, and we need to make sure that in the spending review, that there's enough money to prevent further cuts in social care, and to keep it going, if you like. Because at the moment, unpaid carers are picking up the slack.

And I think that's the big anxiety is that, you know, unpaid carers, you know, we've gone through COVID where social care in many places shut down. They haven't had respite breaks. They've gone into the cost of living crisis. And now suddenly they're continuing to prop up a crumbling health and social care system. And at some point, they themselves will break if they don't get adequate respite. And then you've got a circumstance where the state has to look after two people, the person they care for and their carer. So we can't allow a carer breakdown to happen. And we're very close to that. Many carers say that they just can't cope anymore. They're not getting adequate support. They're not getting adequate respite breaks. So I think there needs to be some short term solutions. And as Melanie said, a national carer strategy to get cross government support for unpaid carers to recognise that they are

everywhere and they need support in a variety of different ways. That's something that could be done in the short term whilst Baroness Casey is undertaking this review. And what do you think of the fact that she's undertaking the review? Do you feel optimistic with her at the head of it? Yes, I do feel optimistic. I think she's done some really good work in the past. I think that she's a cross-party peer so that there is a greater chance of having cross-party consensus on the outcome of this review. And so instead of it failing at that final hurdle, as it has so consistently done, that we've got a fighting chance of actually getting a sensible solution for social care, which will help unpaid carers in the longer term. But my

anxiety, as with many of our colleagues in social care, is that we need some short-term investment. You know, we've got this big, big issue with the national insurance increase and the increase in national living wage, which has a particular impact on social care because it is so low paid. So we need to make sure that there's adequate funding in the short term to prevent any further crumbling of that social care service. And I think also to Melanie's point about doing it alongside the NHS. The NHS 10-year plan, we're all feeding into at the moment and really important again that unpaid carers are through that like a stick of rock. But it has to go hand in hand with social care because the two are dependent upon one another and i think

seeing it in isolation and three years down the line uh is is quite quite a worry melanie just a brief uh final thought from you if you if you can of what what the key thing is that you need to see change right now as helen said there's something about investment in the next spending review and we think we're just short of two billion short of funding for adult social care as a result of the blended package and the result of people needing more care. So we do need some short term solutions before we can start thinking about really the wonderful work that the commission is going to resolve. Okay, Melanie Williams, Director of Adult Social Care in Nottinghamshire and President of the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services and Helen Walker, Chief Executive of Carers UK. Thank you very much for your time. We have been asking for your comments on this and there are plenty here coming in. leonera um who says i became a carer for my husband who was very ill prior to having a heart transplant and the years of care after his surgery this meant me giving up my career and as a consequence my company pension this impact is huge now as i was denied the ability to continue to earn and have a company pension just unpaid and support unsupported when you care

for your loved ones she says help is so badly needed. Please do get in touch with all of your comments on this subject. So we approached the Department of Health and Social Care this morning who directed us to West Streeting's statements today who said we are appointing one of our country's leading public service reformers and Whitehall's greatest doer to finally grasp the nettle on social care reform. Okay, let's move on a chance to look ahead to one of the biggest sporting events taking place this year, the Rugby Women's World Cup. Across August and September, 16 teams from across the globe will be competing. England are hosting the tournament with games being held in Sunderland, Brighton, Bristol, Exeter, Northampton, Manchester and York and the final will be held at the home of rugby, Twickenham. Now whilst Scotland

and Wales will be competing, England currently sit at the top of the world rankings with many hoping that this could be women's rugby's lioness's moment. That's, of course, referring to the triumphant England women's side that won the football Euros in 2022. Since this victory, the game's gone on to heights that many didn't think were possible, including sold-out stadiums and more girls than ever taking up the sport. So could women's rugby be on the cusp of the same thing? And what needs to happen between now and the summer

to ensure it's a big success for all the nations involved? Well, to discuss this further, I'm joined by Fi Thomas, Women's Sport Reporter at The Telegraph, and Cristina Filippou, an Associate Professor in Accounting and Sport Finance at the University of Portsmouth. Welcome to you both. Fi, let's start with you. Can you just give us an idea of what we can expect from the upcoming World Cup? Sure. Thanks for having me on, Kylie. It's hugely exciting. And when, you know, hearing it, hearing you say it just then kind of gave me a shiver down my spine. It's a massive year for women's sport. You know, we've got the women's ashes starting later this month. We've got the women's Euros. But like you say, the Women's

Rugby World Cup is the big one. Why? Because it because it's in england and you know there are many people that hope and think that this this will be women's rugby's time to shine like you know women's football did two years ago in this country and um so far the signs are saying that you know it's it's going to be a record-breaking event not just for women's sport, but for rugby as a sport itself. Let's face it, a sport that many still perceive to be traditionally male and has been dominated by men. And yeah, women's rugby, to put it simply, is on the cusp of something great. Christina, can I come to you? As we were saying there, there's many are who are hoping that this will replicate the success of uh the england women's football team do you think that's a reasonable expectation

i think there's you know pros and cons and this thing so ultimately a lot of this is about eyeballs so what's really great is we're seeing huge amounts of tickets sold over 220,000, kind of very similar to what we were seeing at the Euros in the kind of pre-sale period. So that's all really looking very good. So just ensure that kind of momentum continues. I think the issue is twofold. It's about investment between now and when we have the World Cup. So you need to have investment in marketing. And sometimes because I think particularly with what have been traditionally male sports in terms of what people think they are, that there's been a kind of difference in marketing. So for women's sports, you tend to have to put in a lot more money.

And the kind of marketing and demographics are slightly different. So you can't just sort of sit on your laurels and go, yeah, we know how to do this, because it is slightly different what you're targeting. So making sure that investment stays. The other lesson you need to learn from the sort of Lionesses moment is that investment needs to continue after the World Cup to make sure that money goes into things like facilities, to goes into the PBR, to make sure that people actually continue to go or we see more people going and watching club rugby or women's rugby on a regular basis. So build on that momentum.

And in order to do that, you need to maintain an investment. It's not good just saying, yeah, great, we've had this World Cup, brilliant. Look at all these records we've broken. And then we'll just go back to sitting on what we did before. You need to make sure that investment, the marketing, the interest gets built on so that that continues and the role models get shown and the money keeps coming in, investment, commercial deals, all that kind of stuff some interest. Obviously, women's rugby, club rugby is broadcast. But again, that momentum needs to be built from the ground up. So that includes grassroots, that includes club rugby. And we know the Red Roses is doing really well in that sense,

but it's continuing to build that momentum. Yeah, you're talking about PWR, Premiership Women's Rugby. Fi, do you think that there is the capacity, if there is a big surge of interest in rugby and there are suddenly an awful lot of women and girls who want to start playing, is it there at the grassroots for them? It's a really interesting question, Kylie.

I think rugby clubs up and down the country have developed a long way just in the past 10 years in terms of making grassroots community clubs more accessible, more hospitable for women of all ages. A couple of weeks ago, I saw one grassroots rugby club, you know, announce its first ever maternity policy for because they had so many mums playing on the team. And, you know, even 10 years ago, that would have been unheard of. And, you know, a lot of clubs are now putting like sanitary provisions inside changing rooms. They're having single sex spaces for women and just making them feel a bit more welcome. And, you know, rugby at the end of the day is a sport that prides itself on inclusivity it always has and you know it's a sport for all body shapes and types and you know whether you're a woman using your powerful legs to

positively prop in a scrum or a woman with a slighter build who can you know nip down the down the wing that has always been its USP and that's why I think it is so unique in that sense and that's its USP um whether we will see this kind of surge like we often do after major tournaments um I guess it it hinges very much on on the on the on the fact of willing to win it you know and don't get me wrong there'll be huge pressure on the Red Roses going into this tournament there was you know a big target on their backs at the last World Cup in New Zealand which I covered for the Telegraph and they were on a 33 match winning streak then before New Zealand the the Black Ferns who are the best team historically in the women's game, kind of ruined their party in the final and kind of won a sixth World Cup.

And, you know, they'll be right up there again. And I think what we saw with the Lionesses, I would question whether, you know, would we have seen that, those numbers surge in football had the Lionesses not won on that historic day at Wembley, you know, two summers ago so yeah a lot of it depends on I guess England's ability to go far in the tournament and really kind of capture the country's imagination question to you both let's start with you Christina it is arguably a a rougher sport than football do you think there are there is a there is an issue with um parents maybe not wanting their girls to play the sport because there are concerns about injury. Yeah, absolutely. There is an element of that. But again, to Fi's point, that's why kind of role modelling is so important, because there is an element of that with football as well. It's been traditionally seen as a more kind of male dominated sport um but actually showcasing this and and and the beauty of it and how great it is and all the kind of

health benefits and and and and this is where things even things like sponsorship help you know we've got kind of the links with Clinique for example with the PWR and having that sort of element of kind of showcasing yes it's it can be rough there are injuries but there's also great health benefits and it's it's great for things like teamwork um you want to raise independent women you want to raise strong women this is this is a really good avenue for them and and and we all know that actually participating in team sport is linked with things like higher earnings later in life and so so there's you know loads of benefits that kind of come from long-term

participation and I think it's very important that the sport actually showcases that as part of the whole World Cup. Fee do you want to add to that about that concern that parents might have? Yeah no I totally agree with the point that historically, there has been a lack of female role models in, you know, not just in women's rugby, but of course, all women's sport. We are thankfully now seeing that change with the, you know, the advent of social media, the game being more visible on free to air, the BBC have the rights, obviously, for this women's rugby World Cup, as they have the Six Nations. So there's going to be so much women's rugby on free to air TV this year.

Are there those role models now who you think will stand out? 100%, I think so. A lot of women's players these days, the top professionals, they are growing sizable followings on social media. The standout example at this moment in time is a woman called Alona Ma, who is a US Sevens player. Has 4.5 million followers or something doesn't she on Instagram over 8 million across TikTok and Instagram and you know she's come to

play rugby in England for the next three months with Bristol Bears and you know she's created her whole brand on body positivity being showing that you know having muscles uh and wearing a dress if you want to is completely fine you know i think i think that's she's kind of shown that like the players of today are providing the answers onto just how historically i think rugby chiefs haven't always got it right when it comes to marketing women because they just don't know how to because the audience the the demand hasn't been there but now we are seeing this and it's like because the more senior positions in rugby might be held by men 100 you know their suits around the table it's always been kind of a male sport now we're seeing this this

growing kind of legion of women playing the sport their needs are completely different to male players and you know I think we are, people like Alona Mara showing that it's okay to have big muscles and be beautiful. That is her brand. She's created it and she's amassed 8 million followers and suddenly everyone in rugby is looking at her, this star who we've unearthed in America,

who, which let's face it, isn't a rugby playing nation. You know, it's American Football Central, isn't it? And she's basically showing rugby how it's done, how to market women's players. And I think a lot of women in the game now, including England's Red Roses, they're looking to players like Alona and saying, well, if you can do that, why can't I?

Of course, you know, we're talking a lot about England, but Scotland and Wales are competing too. But, Christina, I wonder, do you think the impact of the World Cup will be global or do you think because it's being hosted in England we're more likely to feel the the kind of bump here? There's obviously always a kind of local bump right and that's great but like like he says um stars like elona bar makes it a lot more global than it once was and something like a world cup is so important because that visibility is not just you know in the stadiums it's broadcast it's the interest is worldwide and with what's been

good about things like big brands coming on board is that they then want to market it because the whole point of sponsorship is to have your brands being shown. So when you have those big companies which have global access, they want to make sure that the interest is global. And that really helps the game kind of progress as well so um yeah i think obviously the local element will be much higher than it will be kind of elsewhere but there's still a kind of global interest and we're seeing that raised worldwide we're seeing a bigger increase in interest in women's sport and that it can only be a good thing fee can i just finish with you if you can briefly give us your analysis at this point, which I know is difficult, but the runners and riders, who do you think could potentially

win this? God, Kylie, it's three days into the new year and you're already asking me that question. Look, England are right up there. They're going to be home favourites. They're on a 20-match winning streak at this moment in time. They've been number one in the world for a while now. I think it's dangerous to count match-winning streaks when it comes to the Red Roses.

So touch all the wood. I'm hoping they can do it. The Black Ferns will be right up there. France and Canada, they're powerhouses of women's rugby as well. So, yeah, get yourself to a TV screen soon and watch the Six Nations. That'll be a huge window, shop window, for this tournament later this year.

March 22nd, it'll be across the BBC. And, yeah, just be curious. Like, don't think that women's rugby is going to be the same as men's because it isn't. You know, it's played very differently. Women are not as powerful as men. We know that. Let's not hide away from that.

But just be curious. Just be curious about it. And, you know, if you've not watched it before, sit down in front of your TV and give it a go. Yeah, or indeed go along. You know, there's plenty of opportunities across the country. Fee and Christina, it's been a really interesting discussion. I'm sure we'll speak about this again this year. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Now, we've been asking for your

thoughts about social care, particularly care in the home. We've been having a lot of your comments about this. Let's read this one from Joy. Joy says, I am 75 and caring for a 25-year-old learning disabled daughter. I have no respite, she says. I'm selling my house in order to fund setting up a supported living house for her and three other learning disabled young people. Adult social care is often seen as help for old people, but it should be about helping young people like my daughter to live a purposeful and meaningful life.

Thank you, Joy, for that comment. This one here from Sheila. Sheila says, I use a wheelchair all the time and having the right accommodation, rampax, access, wide doors, an accessible bathroom and a rising wheelchair mean I can live more independently and don't need carers. So having good equipment and surroundings can reduce the need for care. Thank you very much for getting in touch. We'll read some more of your comments out. You can text Woman's Hour, it's 84844. And on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, my next guest manages to combine outdoor climbing mishaps, hungover train journeys, and her love of the ITV quiz show, The Chase. That's all because they feature in her new comedy show, Make Me Look Fit on the poster. Amy Gledhill has been described as a sensitive comedian. That's rather an unusual phrase. I think you'll agree to describe

someone funny. But when you see her or hear her, that description does make a lot of sense. Amy's just about to start up a residency at Soho Theatre in London. And I'm delighted to say that she joins me now. Amy Amy thanks so much for your company. So I gave that little example there of you being sensitive there's lots of other words that I could use to describe your comedy but for people who haven't seen you perform how would you describe it? Oh good question and happy new year of course we must we must. so I would say it's very honest it's very confessional uh hopefully very relatable particularly to women and um funny hilarious kind of I do need to emphasize that yes sensitive but funny first yeah hopefully yeah yeah it is funny yeah um I which is good

because you're a comedian so you'd hope so um now you wanted to do something in comedy didn't you from when from when you were very small what so what was it that inspired you do you know what it was it was watching Fawlty Towers with my mum and dad when I was really, really young. I remember seeing them really laughing and being like, oh, oh, I'd like to make people do that. That seems like a fun job. And I'd always been a real comedy nerd, absolutely loved old British sitcoms, sort of grew up with it. And then when I went to university I got a boyfriend who was doing open mic comedy and Kylie he was rubbish and I would go around listening I would go around and watch all his gigs with him and the best thing that's ever happened is

is going out with him and him not being brilliant because it really gave me the confidence to to give it a go because I thought well I can at least be that good surely and then I I had my first gig I was absolutely terrified didn't tell anyone I was going to do it kept my coat on the entire time and um I thought I I had it in my head that people would be heckling so bad and it would be so rowdy and rough I would have to run and flee the venue but it was actually lovely and my only regret was not starting sooner so if anyone's if anyone's has a hankering to do stand-up but they find it too scary it is scary but it gets easier and you've just got to you've just got to bite the bullet and give it a go so how do you think it's changed

then from from then to now I would say so I've been I've been going over 10 years and I would say even in that in that time um being a woman in comedy has thankfully got a little bit better when I first started they would never have uh two women on the bill because they would assume the audience couldn't tell us apart even if even if our stand-up was completely different we looked completely different different accents different backgrounds they'd be like well we'll have to put one on in the first half and one on in the second half you kind of considered a novelty act in a lot of ways and in green rooms often people come in and say oh whose girlfriend are you oh and the headline act actually but nowadays there's so many brilliant women in comedy it's an absolute pleasure to have this community

and there can be loads of us on a bill and it doesn't have to be for a charity or a benefit it's often there used to be a joke where it would be like if there's more than two or three women on a bill it's for a woman's charity you know but now you can't stop us there's loads of us we're taking over and um what about when you're on tour how does that vary for for men and women who who are maybe headlining or having their own tour yeah I would say that's the biggest difference still just in terms of safety so I've been on a few tours now and I think people have the perception of when you're on tour as a comedian you know you have a big team with you and often you don't you you've completely on your own you

might drive there yourself you don't have a tour manager a lot of comics now just for financial reasons and logistics don't have a support so you do your own support act and there's definitely been instances where I felt quite unsafe in some of these environments there was there was one instance a while ago where I didn't know at the time but I was informed by audience members afterwards that there was a bit of a kerfuffle in the audience and I thought it was just someone getting up to go to the toilet so I carried on and then afterwards they messaged and said we're so sorry about the disruption but there was actually we had to move because there was a man pleasuring himself in the audience oh my goodness yeah and then and that was the first night of one of my tours when I was going all around the country on

my own and this guy you know knows exactly where I'm gonna be because I advertise it very openly because I want people to arrive at where I'm gonna be and then I suddenly felt really like oh right of course I I need to remember safety so then at other venues I'd have to make sure that a member of staff would just walk me to my car things like that and men generally don't have to think about that sort of thing and I made a joke saying that when when male comedians go on tour they take condoms and when females we take rape alarms and that's the biggest difference that that I think there still is in in gender in comedy I think women are doing so much better we're getting you know headline slots we're on tv a lot we're really we're creating amazing work but they're still there's a gulf in

in personal safety I'm hoping that man was reported or we were we reported him but we were advised because um we didn't have any evidence that that unless we could film him at another venue doing that, he couldn't be arrested. So it's a real eye-opening thing that just in your, that's my place of work. And also it was really, that really hit home because I talk about something kind of in know in the same vein in my show but in a funny way of course of course um and I really want my audience to be a really safe space for

women and then that it just really threw me that that's it just never occurred to me that that's a thing that could happen at my place of work you know I think one thing you do very well is that the because I won't ruin it for people but you talk about an incident on a train that happens where where you're groped by a man yeah you but the thing that you're very clever with is you manage to say it in a and this is where the word sensitive comes in you say it in a sensitive way but then you manage to switch it and make and make it funny but yeah but you don't belittle what happened to you in any way no I think that's really important and I think that's something I wouldn't have been able to do as a as a newer comedian because you have to be able to hold that space and not instantly puncture everything with a joke you have to be able to

to give it the the weight it deserves you know so there's a few moments in the show where I have to kind of be quite vulnerable and strong at the same time and said, this happened and this isn't okay. But then pad it with comedy around it. It's not a sad show. I really want to point that out. We do have a really good time. And you have a lot of kind of audience interaction.

Has that ever backfired on you? Do you know what? I think I'm really lucky with my audience. We tend to have a really good laugh. The only time I've ever been really annoyed is I did the Montreal Comedy Festival and you fly across to Canada and you do two gigs, seven minutes each. And that is it.

So you've gone all the way to Canada for two lots of seven minutes. One seven minutes went great. Brilliant. The next seven minutes, a guy in the front row was heckling from the second I got on stage. But then he stood up and was coming towards the stage and then security had to come and remove him. But it took exactly seven minutes. And as soon as he got out, I went, right. Well, anyway, my name's Amy. And there was a huge clock because they were so tight for time.

And the clock was flashing zero. And I looked to the side and the stage manager was like, you have to get off. I was like, right to get off I was like right well I've got jet lag for this oh that's not fair you should have been given at least another seven minutes right you talk a lot in the show about um it was quite self-deprecating isn't it and you've said that your self-esteem is wonky tell us about that yes yeah well right in the show I kind of realized uh there's a difference between confidence and self-esteem. And I it wasn't something that I was aware of. So I've always assumed I must have pretty good self-esteem. I'm confident enough to talk on stage. And then I was reading a few books and kind of digging into that kind of thing for research for the show.

And I realized that self-esteem is very very different actually to confidence and it's one of the things that has become the most relatable in the show is people coming up going oh I feel the same I'm confident enough to you know hold core or go to a board meeting or do you know do my job really well but then I accept treatment and behavior that I shouldn't you know sometimes in relationships, sometimes from family members, whatever it would be. And yeah, and it was a real, it was a real journey of discovery. And looking back, it kind of put all my past relationships into context, like, oh, that's why I stayed so long. but I didn't realize I had low self-esteem I really genuinely thought I was skipping along through life full of confidence but it's it's different

and people need to check in with themselves and see how they're doing in terms of self-esteem because if it is low it is a bit of a cycle you know so you I sort of talk about it a bit in the show how if you've got low self-esteem you you accept things that you shouldn't and then that gives you lower self-esteem and it just goes on and on and on and before you realize it you're kind of at rock bottom and you you're not respecting yourself so it's it but you might still be very confident and chirpy and bubbly and outgoing but yeah self-esteem is different um you've got your residency as we were talking about the Soho Theatre I mean it's the big deal isn't it what what does that mean for you and

and how do you prep for that because it must be a bit of an endurance challenge doing that do you know what it's it's so nice that it's in one place because when you're on tour, every night is opening night because you're in a new theatre with a new tech. The stage is different. The layout of backstage is different. You get lost trying to find your dressing room and then trying to find the stage. Everything is so different and new every single night. Having a residency is a dream come true

because you've got your opening night. You'll have opening night nerves but then the next night you know where you're going you know where to get a tap water from do you know what I mean and you know the tech you know the layout of the room you know how it feels and I've done Soho Theatre a few times before but never the big the big boy room never done it in there and I've never done so I'm doing two weeks which is just yeah a real career highlight so I'm over the moon to be doing that yeah I bet well um I really enjoyed your show um thank you so much and I love and I love the sensitivity in it as well it's quite different

so um I really appreciate your time Amy thanks so much thank you and Amy's show make me look fit on the poster is on at Soho Theatre in London from the 27th of January. And just a note, if you've been affected by any of those topics that we've been discussing, you can find support links on BBC Action Line. Okay, now to an author whose subject matter varies dramatically. Joo Hye Kim's lauded first novel, Beasts of a Little Land, was set in Korea and covered the conflicts of the 20th century. Her second novel, City of Nightbirds, explores a wildly different subject, modern Russian ballet, and follows the story of Natalia, a talented ballerina, as she finds fame and struggles to cope with the demands of international stardom.

I'm delighted to say that Dhae joins me in the studio. Lovely to see you. Hello, thank you for having me. So tell me, why write a book about Russian ballet dancers? Well, I have been passionate about almost every type of art ever since I was little. I grew up playing the cello. I read art history in university. And of course, there's literature, but my first and true obsession has always been ballet. I grew up dancing ballet from the age of

nine. And probably the highlight of my dancing career was when I attended the pre-professional summer intensive at Universal Ballet, which is one of the two top companies in Korea. And I danced through university, but I stopped as an adult. And I returned to it 10 years later at age 32 during the pandemic. And what struck me was how much more comfortable and joyous dancing was in my body at that late stage. And I think because I learned who I was, mind, body and soul. So at that time, my then editor asked me, what are you going to work on next? And I knew immediately that it was going to be about ballet, and Russian ballet in particular, because of all the different forms and schools of ballet, that is the one that

resonates with me the most. I would say that there are about three qualities that are unique to Russian ballet. One is that the port de bras is very emphasized and integrated with the movement of the legs, so that there is a sense of harmony visually, but also internally with the dancer. And secondly, there is an unironic dedication and connection to the soul, which in Russian will be called dusha. And finally, there's the bravura element, which is not just a technical feat, but a daring tribute to the audience. So I really saw that in action last October when I went to Moscow, I received a humanitarian visa to accept an award. And I went to see the Don Quixote at Bolshoi Theater. And at the act one variation at the end of it, Basilio received an applause. And he performed

another double tour unaccompanied, no music, just as an appreciation to the audience. And that was so striking, because it was not choreographed. It was just his spontaneous decision to react to the audience. And he could have fumbled and he had just done the perfect variation and he took an extra risk on top. So that's something that you don't see anywhere else in the world and very typical of Russian ballet. You obviously have extensive knowledge in the field. But reading your book, as somebody who doesn't know anything about Russian ballet, I'm really enjoying it. And I don't think you need to know anything to go into the novel, do you? Or have a specialist interest?

No, because I really thought of it as a novel about art. And if I were to characterize it, I would say it's a love story between an artist and her art. And if you are interested in the creative process, it doesn't matter whether you have a vested interest in dance, I think you will relate to it. Your first novel, Beasts of a Little Land, was set in Korea, as we were saying, during the conflicts of the 20th century. What made you write about that period? I was inspired to write my first novel because of the stories that I heard of my maternal grandfather growing up, and he was involved in the Korean independence movement from Japanese colonialism. And I had a very mystical experience where I was running in the park one day, it was a winter day, it was covered in snow.

And I saw this image of a tiger leap into my mind's eye. And all of these scenes from the later chapters of the book, even the penultimate chapter of the book, came into me all at once. And I could see everything line up like a constellation and how those moments connected. So I came home and I started writing what became the prologue in one sitting. And I had a similar type of magical experience writing City of Nightbirds as well. So I think that the inspiration had always existed within me, possibly, due to my family history. And in that one moment, I received it as if from the ether. That sounds kind of mystical. I really don't know any other way of experiencing art or creating art. It's not a very rational process.

And my writing process probably mirrors Dan's process very similarly because ballet is also not very rational. I read a while ago an an interview with Alexander Sergeyev, who is a first soloist at Mariinsky Theatre, and a renowned choreographer as well. And he was describing how his daughter with another famous prima prima ballerina is not disposed to the dance profession because she is too rational. And he said she was morally not suited to dance because in order to dance ballet, you have to be more passionate and more mystical. So I think that I share that temperament. Your debut novel that we were talking about was incredibly well received, wasn't it? As you

mentioned, it was a finalist for the Dayton Literary Peace Prize and won Russia's biggest annual literary prize. So what was that like for you writing such a successful debut? And did you kind of think that it would be that successful? Do you have that thought in your mind when you're writing or when it's published? Absolutely not. I only wrote for one reader who was my literary agent, and I had no guarantee that it would ever see the light of day. When it actually came out into the world and was so beloved by readers around the world, it was a true shock to me. And many author friends that I had warned me beforehand that your book will not change your life.

So be prepared. And in fact, Beasts of a Little Land did absolutely change my life. And for me, the biggest change came from the way it gave me a huge sense of responsibility as an artist. And it's something that I wake up thinking about and go to sleep thinking about. In what way? My responsibility to the readers, how I interact with them. You know, one of the proudest moments of my life as a writer was I actually had a reader event in St. Petersburg, and it was long past the hour.

You know, I had given it all and there were so many people still waiting, standing there, waiting to talk to me more. And that made me proud because they knew that I wouldn't turn them away and say, the event has ended, please go home, I'm tired. They knew they could trust me. So that was my proudest moment. And it's made me think about what I use my platform for. The fact that I was able to give away my entire prize money, Yasnaya Polyana Award, which is administered by the Leo Tolstoy Estate. The fact that I was able to give that away for tiger and leopard conservation and to speak about peace at the award ceremony, at some risk to my personal benefit, because, you know, as we know,

it's an authoritarian regime, and I had to be very careful, but also talk about the importance of peace. And I did that through the guise of animals that, that they are innocent, and that they don't recognize borders or man made conflicts. What Peace of a Little Land allowed me to do is actually increase my advocacy. So about half of my time I spend on writing and promoting my books, and half of my work week is devoted to my various advocacy causes. And the fact that I'm able to do that is the greatest measure of my success. And one of the things that you're about to do which is a little different I guess is you're going to be an executive producer because the

Beast of a Little Land, your first book, has been optioned for a TV series, is that right? Yes and it's a very exciting process. I can't reveal too much officially because it will all be announced in due time but we have some of the most exciting actors and actresses in K-drama and K-pop who have already signed up to perform roles. deep passion for Korean traditional music and Korean traditional dance. And it will be visually and of course, musically, so complete as a work of art. So I think you will be able to experience Beasts of a Little Land in a totally new way. And just briefly, if you can, are you working on writing something new at the moment? I am unbelievably busy, because my City of Nightbirds just came out in the US in November, and it's coming out January 9th in the UK. But not only that, I have a third book that's coming out in the US this November. And I am supposedly working on third novel slash fourth book called The Divine Comedy, which will be published in the next couple of years.

And in between, I also do environmental journalism. I also mentioned that I am donating and partnering with different nonprofits. For City of Nightbirds, I'm working with Karta Somalia, which is an African development and aid non-profit. And so with that comes other work that I can do to support them. So you're very busy. Yes, I'm very lucky. Yeah. Juhei, it's been a pleasure to speak to you this morning. Thank you so much. Thank you so much thank you so much and we've been asking for your comments about social care and we have lots of them coming in

i'm just going to read a few of them here this person says i'm in my early 50s i have muscular dystrophy a progressive condition which affects my whole body i've used funded care since my 20s i had a care package which enabled me to work, to leave home, to have a life like any other young person. This person says, we do not hear enough about this when social care works well, but to work well, it needs adequate funding. I'm battling to keep a good life, working, contributing and keeping healthy. It's good news that we finally are hearing something about social care. And another one here, we could have paid full-time care for my mum so that it could work, but I wouldn't be able to earn enough to cover it.

So we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. Do join me, if you can, tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. Thank you very much indeed for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Would you consider looking into health scales? Sometimes we go in unexpected directions. As part of this episode, I conducted a sniff test. But how good really are these wonder products? It's more than the best thing since sliced bread. It's a lifesaver. It's not something I would invest in.

I'd certainly say you have to take it with a big pinch of salt. The new series of Sliced Bread with me, Greg Foot, on Radio 4, is more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.