Woman's Hour - Women’s Sexual Desire

Episode Date: May 31, 2019

Is it time to challenge stereotypical ideas about male and female sexual desire? We hear from women who think so. According to Dr Wednesday Martin research in recent years has suggested that much of what we’ve been told by scientists is untrue, for instance the assertions that men have a stronger libido than women and that men struggle with monogamy more than women do. She joins award-winning comedian and playwright Fran Bushe to discussIt’s a week since Theresa May announced her resignation as Conservative Party Leader – we look at the reaction to her stepping down and discuss the news highlights of the week with director of Civil Exchange, Caroline Slocock, Co-founder and editor of Black Ballad, Tobi Oredein and journalist Sonia Sodha.When we talk about men and women's levels of sexual desire, do we too often default to using narrow, stereotypical categories? According to Dr Wednesday Martin research in recent years has suggested that much of what we’ve been told by scientists up till now is untrue, for instance the assertions that men have a stronger libido than women and that men struggle with monogamy more than women do. She joins award-winning comedian and playwright Fran Bushe to discuss.Booksmart is a new film about best friends and academic overachievers Amy and Molly who on the eve of their graduation from school discover they may have spent too much time studying and not enough time partying. It has been described as one of the most perfect coming-of-age films. We speak to the journalist and writer Karen Krizanovich and film student Sophie Foxley.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Helen Fitzhenry

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for Friday the 31st of May. It's often been said that men think about sex every seven seconds and women hardly at all. What's the truth for the men and, of course, for the women? Have we all been misled by what turn out to be rather silly stereotypes? There have been plenty of rather raunchy films about boys as they come of age. Will Booksmart, about two young women on the verge of graduation from high school, prove to be a hit with the girls. And the serial, the final episode of Gudrun. But we begin with a

review of the week's news, exactly a week after the Prime Minister, Theresa May, announced she would step down as leader of the Conservative Party. I'm joined by the editor of Black Ballad, Toby Orodyne, the chief leader, writer at The Observer and deputy opinion editor at The Guardian, Sonia Soda, and Caroline Slowcock, the director of Civil Exchange, the author of People Like Us, and former private secretary to Margaret Thatcher. Caroline, what did you make of the response to Mrs May's speech and headlines such as The Crying Lady, A Crying Shame, It All Ends in Tears?

Well, I think actually it is important to to look at the human drama obviously we need to reflect on her legacy which i think is is terrible uh but i think the human drama does matter and uh you know one of the reasons why people were so fixed on the fact that she almost broke down uh is because uh she'd been portrayed as so robotic, unable to reach out to others in a warm and empathetic way. And I think the story behind this is that I think she didn't want to show emotion outside number 10. She wanted to remain in control because I think for women to express emotions in public, particularly powerful women, is still a no-no.

You know, it's like to get that response which David Cameron said, calm down, dear. But, Sonia, we've seen tears from men. You know, David Cameron, we saw tears at one point, Vladimir Putin, Barack Obama. How differently is a display of emotion treated in a man? Well, I think it is treated differently. I think it's seen kind of almost positively as if they're sort of showing their vulnerable side.

And I think the difference in the reaction to Theresa May and the difference between when some of those male leaders have showed emotion just shows the double standards that female political leaders continue to face in public life and I think you see it on an issue like tears and show of emotion but it still very much exists across the piece so for example family life for me it's really sexist the way that Philip May has talked about in relation to Theresa May there's this kind of assumption that she must rely on her husband for advice and support. And he's talked about in a way that Samantha Cameron or Cherie Blair simply wasn't. I think another example is whether female political leaders have got children. Women have to account for that in a very, very different way to men,

whether they've got partners or whether they're single, whether they've chosen to have children. It was really difficult for me to have to see Theresa May and, you know, Nicola Sturgeon, for example, have to essentially explain to the public why they didn't have children, whereas we've seen male leaders in the past who haven't had children and they've just not faced that same sort of scrutiny. Toby? In terms of Theresa May's tears, I think in a weird, I think there's a Maya Angelou quote that says, people won't remember what you say, but they'll remember how you made them feel.

And I think in that moment, people felt sorry for her. And as you said, it was the first time that we saw human emotion. And I think, to be fair, someone else said it, that's probably the best thing that she's done in her time as Prime Minister, because the first time we saw her as human, we haven't seen her display that emotion when it's come to any topic that has been quite emotional, where it comes from Grenfell or Windrush. And, you know, we was rooting for her, not rooting for her,

but we wanted her to display that human emotion, that human connection. And that was the time that she displayed it. And I guess that this is the only time we've ever seen her as human and kind of felt sorry for her in this, like, three-yearyear reign as Prime Minister. Caroline how might she be compared with Mrs Thatcher or other women who've come to the end of their political road Hillary Clinton or not very long to go for Angela Merkel? Well I do see a common pattern between her and Margaret Thatcher you know I was the only other woman in the cabinet room when Margaret Thatcher resigned, and she cried tears, I think, of distress and shock, but also anger because she felt betrayal, treachery with a smile on its face, she later said.

And I think that both Theresa May and she probably have been undermined by the men around them. And I think that, you know, the Conservative Party actually has a problem with women. It's almost a double-edged thing because they've kind of opened the doors to them, literally and metaphorically, to power, put them on a glass cliff, the jobs that no man had wanted to do, you know, the unions or Brexit,

but then viciously undermine them behind the scenes and even in front of the cameras, or as it were, you know, those talk of the knife that was going to be heated and twisted in her chest and telling her to bring a noose to a meeting with backbenchers. And then, you know, the men sort of fading away and bottling as if they don't want to be seen to be picking on a woman. You know, there's a, you know, there's a problem there in the Conservative Party and a wider problem, I think, that we still tend to not see women in power as human beings. We tend to demonise them, you know, with Thatcher, the sort of wicked witch, the spitting image, you know, the man dressed as a man behaving like a man. And we tend to be violent towards them, these death threats and rape threats that we see all the time against women in politics today.

Which leads us sort of to Dominic Raab, who declared he's probably not a feminist this week. How much difficulty, Sonia, would you say the party really has with women? We've heard bloody difficult woman, extremely headmistressy, you know, all those things come out. No wonder they're bloody minded when they're called a bloody difficult, you know, a bloody woman.

Well, I mean, I think the party, well, I think we have a problem with women in general across politics, I think it's really important to say. And I used to work for the Labour Party. I don't think the Labour Party's cracked this either. Indeed, you know, the Labour Party has never sort of had, you know, a female prime minister. But I do think you've got to judge these parties, not just on what men in them say, but on their record. And so for me, even if you look at Theresa May's legacy, I mean, she might well be the

country's second female prime minister. But I think her legacy for women in particular has been really toxic overall so if we look at the impact of the you know public spending cuts her government implemented we know that benefits cuts to benefits tax credits cuts to public services have disproportionately affected women and i do think the fact that dominic raab it's really interesting in it isn't it that in 2019 he clearly shuns the label of feminist he doesn't quite want to take it on and on one on one level yeah he called exactly and and he stood by that comment he's been challenged on it you know he said that in 2011 he's been challenged on it and he's not really

distanced himself from those comments in 2011 at all and on one level i'm kind of glad that he's not trying to appropriate the label feminist because i certainly don't think he's a feminist i think if you think feminists are obnoxious bigots it's because you don't understand the nature of sexism and the structural barriers that women face in society but at the same time I think it tells you something about the Conservative Party that as a leading candidate he thinks it's okay you know it's Tory members who are going to be selecting this this this person and he thinks it's okay to distance himself from the label feminist. how acceptable is it for a politician to say he's not a feminist in 2019 because plenty of women will say the same thing

edwina curry in the mail this morning well i think it depends on what you understand feminist to be to me if you call yourself a feminist it just means that you are in favor of equal opportunities for women now dominic rob interestingly sees feminism as something different because he says he's in favor of equal opportunities but also says he isn't a feminist but i think that's because he has a completely different understanding of the barriers that women face and the fact that he thinks that women trying to seek down barriers are actually sexist towards men shows that he just doesn't understand what feminism is, which I think makes him sexist and a misogynist.

Toby, one of the other things he said was we need less of the gender warfare in an outdated battle of the sexes. Does he have a point when he says that? No, because I think, like, when I think, is it under a third of women make up parliament? When you look at that record, you can't really say, like, this is gender warfare. Like, as you say is it under a third of women make up parliament? When you look at that record, you can't really say, like, this is gender warfare.

As you say, it speaks for itself. And I think the fact that he calls women feminists obnoxious bigots, for me, it's quite worrying because it's kind of like... I'm sure he wasn't talking about all feminists when he said obnoxious bigots, was he? What do you think? I think he probably was. I think that was his reference. Feminists are some of the worst obnoxious bigots yeah he also said pretty damning that men

from cradle to grave are getting a war deal yeah yeah and that's just that's not met we live in a patriarchy society men can't experience sexism that that's just the the hard and fast way it's not we didn't make that up like that's the system that men set up to benefit from and i think the thing that gets to me is that he says he keeps saying about working women and that's what he keeps on my i believe in fairness for working women so are you saying that if you don't work and you women may not work for medical reasons for financial reasons because we know that child care is super expensive so so you're saying that your feminist and your women policies only is policies only go to women that have a job. For me, it's worrying.

And then when you think about what feminism is, feminism is bringing in other structures, which class, race. And if you don't understand feminism at its basic, how can you address certain demographics within women that are affected by race, class, sexual orientation? I think it's quite worrying. I think in 2019, to say that you don't believe in feminism and what is becoming more intersectional that's what it's becoming should be becoming i don't think you're the right person to leave this country at all now it's not just child care that's expensive and that is often a problem for women the adult social care policy paper has been delayed again why would you say, Sonia, that what's clearly becoming a crisis is being so neglected? I think there's two reasons. I think, first of all, it's not at the forefront of people's

minds. So, you know, it really affects you when you've basically got older parents or older relatives. And at that point, you start to realise, or if it's you yourself who needs care, just how different the system is from the NHS. And I think people are genuinely quite shocked to realise, well, if you get cancer, your care is covered. If you get dementia, actually, it's very, very means tested. And many people end up having to meet the full costs of their care. And that's quite a shock for people because it only happens at one point in your lifetime or one point in your relative's lifetime. So I think it's not a burning issue amongst voters until it gets to that very sharp

point. And then, of course, it kind of takes over your life. But I think the second problem is it's been quite politically toxic over the last 10 years. And we saw in 2010, Andy Burnham, when he was health secretary, float the idea of a national care service which I'm a big supporter of I think it's so unfair if you get dementia you have your care on such a differential basis to if you get cancer so I'm a big supporter of that I think it's a no-brainer but he talked about raising money through inheritance tax which got labelled by the Conservatives as a death tax we saw Theresa May try and float some ideas in the 2017 election which I personally don't think were the right ideas.

But at least someone was putting a few ideas out there. They got labelled a dementia tax. So this is incredibly politically toxic territory. I think it takes some leadership. I think it takes someone brave to just say we need to put taxes up to make sure that people who get dementia get cared for in the same way that people who get cancer. But I think Brexit has just also consumed all the political oxygen of the last three years. And we are just not talking about these big social challenges that we face as a country. Living longer is something to be celebrated. It's something joyful, but we're making it into something difficult and toxic for ourselves as a society. I agree with all of that. I heard Andrew Dillnott, who did the big review, which

was published in 2011, which was first accepted by the government and then rejected. I heard him on the radio earlier this week, literally woke me up. He said, you know, one of the reasons is that the people who are experiencing these problems don't campaign, you know, they're just exhausted by the burden that they have to carry. And I was thinking of my mother's friend with whom she used to live. My mother died some years ago. She's now 99. She's got Parkinson's.

She's had a stroke. She can only walk around a tiny flat with a walking frame. Doctors for some well now have said she must go into a home. But the local authority has said, well, we might have done that a few years back, but we haven't got the money. We've run out of money. And she just suffers in silence. There's, you know, I can't expect her to get up and campaign for better treatment. And the carers who are often women and the people who are paid to care are so busy and burdened that they don't speak up either. And we don't hear those voices.

That Panorama documentary, the title was Who Cares? £10 million was given by the government to Somerset Council. They were covering for potholes. And £2 million for social care last winter. Yeah, I mean, when you think about that stat that you just said, it just shows you that it's not a priority and i think that's i think that's so damaging and that we're putting a price on people's health and i think when you think about you've got these people that are in

care that need care and they're ill then you've got 58 of carers i think are women and like they're not getting out of the house and if you're if you're a carer you're likely more likely to be a carer in your 40s your your 50s, your 60s. You often have children. Yeah. You're trying to think about settling down in your later years of life. And then you have the stress of caring for someone else. You don't get out socially.

The mental health repercussions for those carers must be immense. I mean, it's kind of like a never-ending cycle. You've got someone in care and you've got someone who's looking after the carer who needs help as well. It's a dangerous cycle that we're in tell me that there is something that we're all looking forward to coming up and that is the women's football uh world cup of course but a slogan slay in your lane was trademarked by two black writers in 2018 and that's been used by the BBC to promote women in sport. What did you make of that? Is it a compliment to them or is it something other than that? It's not a compliment, it's plagiarism and I think we have to look, we cannot talk about this without talking about the racial dynamics of

this. It was, as far as we know, it was an all-white creative team that took the slogan that two black girls had come up together with for their book and for their movement that they're trying to create in the UK and they passed it on an advertising board. And we'd be getting compliments and being like, oh my God, this is an amazing initiative and campaign. And why I say we have to look at the racial dynamics is that black people's creativity has been co-opted since the beginning of time. When we look at Motown music, when we look at Elvis' music and and we go back it was all taken from black artists who weren't rewarded financially or

weren't given the benefit the creative benefits and i think to take this campaign and just think okay well and and also i think we have to look at the fact that this slogan saying elaine was used to promote dina asher smith who's a black british sprinter they knew what that slogan meant to black british women they knew the calling card that they was getting they was trying to recreate i don't think it's a compliment at all i have to just say the bbc did ask me to say this the bbc sought legal advice before going ahead and was advised that the use of the headline slaying your lane in our women in sport changed the game marketing campaign was sufficiently far removed from the goods and services

covered by the trademark registration in place. That makes it worse. It makes it worse. And the fact that you sought legal advice beforehand you knew you was in the wrong. You don't seek legal advice if you know that you're doing the right thing at all.

It could have taken a completely different response. I mean they've done something completely wrong i utterly agree with you so imagine if when the person who came up with that slogan reached out and they brought those women in they apologized to them and said right we're going to work with you on our next campaign or something similar that would have been an appropriate response an apology and an agreement to do things but worse. They actually said that the women were bullying the BBC. These young black authors were bullying

the BBC. It's another version of calm down, dear, isn't it? Let me just say, for background info, the first burst of posters which uses the headline came to an end on Tuesday which was always planned. Here I am you see, telling you what the BBC has said.

We look forward to the World Cup on the 7th of June. Next week on Woman's Hour we'll be talking about coaching women for sport in UK Coaching Week and for now I want to thank Toby Oredine, Sonia Soda and Caroline Slowcock. Thank you all very much

indeed. Now still to come in today's programme, Booksmart, the new film described as a feminist buddy comedy directed by a woman and with a friendship at its centre. Is it an encouraging coming-of-age movie for girls? And the serial, the final episode of Gudrun. And a reminder that earlier in the week we discussed coming out to your parents. Well, you can now read an article with advice for both parents and children on the Woman's Hour website.

Now, you may remember a couple of weeks ago we mentioned that we'd be discussing sex and finding out the latest research on what's really known about men's and women's attitudes to what they wanted from their sex life. We've long lived with the stereotype that men think about it every seven seconds and are much more likely to be unfaithful than women who barely think about it at all. Well, we asked you to tell us what you really, really want. I've been married for over 20 years and this issue has caused pain and heartache throughout our marriage.

Before getting married, I had an active and very enjoyable sex life with a previous partner. I naively imagined that sex inside marriage would be a journey of increased exploration, but I was proved very wrong. From the outset, my husband was less interested than I was in our sex life. As I had low self-esteem back then, I always blamed myself for being too needy, too fat to be attractive, slutty or just out of touch. Now I realise that my sex drive is not so unusual and rather that my husband, for some reason, simply isn't interested. Although in many ways we are well matched, this issue has almost broken our marriage apart. I'm trying one last time to impress on him how important physical intimacy is for me, but I feel quite hopeless about it.

And so sad that I have not been able to enjoy such a potentially beautiful part of life with my partner. It's all made worse by the jokes that women make with each other about being sick of their husbands wanting sex all the time. I want to weep when I hear this. I'm a woman and polygamous. I have three partners. My husband of 20 years has way less sexual interest than I do. One of my girlfriends has burnout and is easily overwhelmed. But as far as interest goes, I think we're about equal. My other girlfriend has a higher sex drive. These things are, in my experience, much more personality and

mental health related than gender related. As a regularly philandering man now in his early 60s, I can say quite categorically that in my experience women have a stronger sex drive than most men. I'm surprised this question is being asked today as throughout history men have tried to devise ways and means to control women's sexual behaviour, and there have been many references to it in both film and literature, often in a humorous way, such as the insatiable honeymoon wife in Hitchcock's film Rear Window.

Beware any man who thinks his partner will be 100% faithful when her sex drive is more likely stronger than his. My view is that women have the capacity to have the same degree of sexual appetite, if not more, than men. But thousands of years of repression, fear of social stigma and personal safety prevent us from truly connecting with our desires. There isn't the opportunity. There are no role models and it's not seen as acceptable. A sexual awakening for a woman can be a glorious physical and spiritual life turnaround. I think routine and dull, inexperienced or careless partners kill female libido,

but it can be rekindled. Given the chance, we could benefit from having multiple sexual partners. We need greater exploration of our inner worlds. Our fantasies are not expressed through porn, so we have little outlet to coax out our true, mysterious, libidinous selves. When I was younger, I had a huge desire for sex. I once almost fainted, had a panic-type attack because I hadn't had sex for a while. Now, unfortunately, things have gone the other way. Since going through the menopause, I am not interested in sex, which psychologically I feel devastated about. I've been struggling with my relationship. My partner seems uninterested

in sex, and my sex drive is at its highest one day before and after my period. It seems our desires never cross, thus we haven't had sex for months. It seems the longer this goes on, the more difficult it is to initiate it, as it's mostly me who does anyway. I really miss this part of a relationship, and feel now pretty unloved. I've been dreaming of having other relationships, and feel that I want to ask to have an open relationship, but I know that he wouldn't be happy with this. And as we have an eight-year-old, I'm feeling really trapped and unfulfilled. So what do we actually know about men's and women's sexual desires from research carried out more recently than what might have been learned in the days before it became a subject

we could be really open about? Well, Fran Bush is a playwright and comedian whose show Ad Libido was first performed when she was 30. She's now 32. Dr. Wednesday Martin is the author of a number of books on the subject. The most recent is Untrue, Why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women and Lust and Infidelity is Untrue and How the New Science Can Set Us Free. She joins us from New York. Wednesday, why has nearly everything we've been taught by science about female sexuality

been untrue? Good morning. It's so wonderful to hear the voices of the women and the men that opened this segment. And the short answer to your question is that really since Darwin, we have misunderstood and misrepresented not just males, but females of every species. Darwin believed that males were sort of ever ready and highly sexed, and that females were coy and reticent and less sexed and less interested in sex. But that we're learning is untrue thanks to newer sex research and newer primatology and anthropology. We even have a new book out in the United States called Not Always in the Mood by a sex researcher named Sarah Hunter Murray about how men are often the low desiring partners, as one woman was talking about as she spoke about her personal

experience just a few moments ago. So we've really profiled not just women, but men as well, when we have asserted that women have lower libidos. I always like to think about what is the efficacy? What do we accomplish by asserting that men have higher libidos and women lower? And basically, when we believe that men naturally have higher libidos, we're believing that they have the power to shape not only relationships, but the world, and that women don't. Fran, how have such untruths influenced your experience of sex? So I always thought that I had a very low libido. I felt like I didn't always want it, found sex painful sometimes. But actually, I think what was actually happening was that the kind of sex that would work for me didn't match the sex I saw in the media, the sex that I

was taught about at school. I certainly didn't know that I had a clitoris or that women could orgasm or even enjoy sex from sex education that I had at school. So that was all things that I had to teach myself and learn. And I was putting so much pressure on having an orgasm from enjoying sex from penis and vagina sex, penetrative sex. And that just wasn't going to work for me. So I spent many, many years feeling completely sexually broken and I didn't have a libido. So how did you get around that?

What's your experience of libido now? And who seems to have it stronger, men or women? I think now conversations are really starting about how women can enjoy sex and how we can experience pleasure. Women having more open conversations about, I have discussions now with friends about which sex toys they use, which vibrators people are using, and those definitely aren't conversations I would have felt comfortable having in the past. I went to my doctors about it. I was told very much that I should just have a glass of wine to loosen myself up a bit and that would make me want sex more.

But I didn't really feel like there were any outlets for me. But there certainly is the curiosity there. I mean, I went to a squirting workshop. I've been to a sex camp. My brain wants sex a lot, but my body doesn't always cooperate. And it's having those two things meet. There are so many examples. If we look in literature, I mean, The Wife of Bath is the really famous one, where women's desire has been written about. And yet, of course women tend to get punished for their desire how are we going to get around the idea that um we're all kind of eve really if we show any desire we will be punished

um i think that's the million dollar question as we say here in the United States. And I'm so interested to hear about Fran's experiences recently that she was basically told by her doctors to have a glass of wine to get into the mood. One of the greatest misperceptions in sex research and just in our day-to-day lives is that monogamy is easier for women. One of the things that's happening, and we have wonderful new data about it, numerous longitudinal studies are showing us that actually being in a long-term monogamous partnership is harder on the female libido than it is on the male libido. We've been taught that precisely the opposite is the case and that we're naturally monogamous so that when you see the intersection of this myth that the female libido is lower which we've disproved now that we know how to measure the female libido correctly when we look at circular

desire versus say linear desire what do you mean by that when you write that female desire is more circular than linear, what does that actually mean? That's a reference to the work of a sex researcher named Dr. Rosemary Basson, a Canadian researcher who realized the reason that we keep saying that the male libido is higher than the female is because we're only measuring one metric of desire called spontaneous desire when you're sitting there and you think, my, I'd like to have sex in the same way that you think my I'd like to have a hamburger and that's not happening to Fran for example and to

many other women who spoke in the introduction of the segment Rosemary Basson said let's measure this thing called triggered or responsive desire when something starts to happen and then you're interested in sex. And what Rosemary Basson found was when we measure triggered and responsive desires, the difference between the male and female libido, all that disappears. Now, why is this so important? Because we've built an entire cultural house on the presumption that men are more libidinous, but newer research shows that in long-term relationships, it's actually men who are just as likely to be the low desiring partner and women who are basically asphyxiating in long-term monogamous relationships because they need

variety and novelty and sexual adventure. So we've really flipped the script and misrepresented both men and women by misunderstanding and mismeasuring libido. Now, Fran, let me just bring Fran in here, because in your show, Add Libido, you say your aim is to fix sex. Yes. Big question. How? Um, well, for me, certainly it was learning what I liked and putting myself centrally in my own sexual experience. So much of the sex I was having was for my partner. So much of it was performative. I was making all the right noises. Like I had, I was, I would say I was faking orgasms pretty much every single time because it was so much more important that my partner had a good time and that felt like enough for me. Their pleasure was more important and worrying about, you know, if they were performing oral sex on me, have I taken too long to come? Is everything okay down there? All of these other worries. So for me, it was putting myself central to the sexual experience and actually taking my partner out of the equation almost entirely, working out what I liked on my own first. Why Wednesday is it so common for women to do what Fran did, which is to immediately assume, oh, there must be something wrong with me. Why? Well, I love that Fran is centering this conundrum,

which is incredibly common in the industrialized West of women basically performing to please men sexually. Let's think about what goes behind that. When we prioritize male pleasure over female pleasure, really what we're doing in our culture is just showing our hand about who has power. We see that wherever women have very high rates of labor force and political participation, for example, they tend to have more sexual autonomy. So when people say we need to have a pleasure revolution about female-centered pleasure, I'm very much heartened by that, but I also think about how we can only have that when the material circumstances on the ground show that women deserve pleasure, when we have more female leadership and it isn't constantly embattled.

When women are running the world, that's when we'll start caring about their pleasure in the bedroom as much as we care about male pleasure. In the meantime, activists and artists like Fran are making a big difference by putting forward the idea, the simple, very important idea that female pleasure matters. It's still such a revolutionary concept. Fran, I know just briefly that you do questions and answers sometimes after the show. How often do you hear that, that there must be something wrong with me? So much. Yeah. I think it's also a very female thing that we sometimes think

everything is our fault and want to apologise for things. Even when I've been with partners who have had a low sex drive, I've thought that was my fault as well. Everything I tended to bring back to being on me and it's something, again, that I had to fix. Well, Fran Bush and Dr Wensley Martin, thank you both very much indeed. And again, we would love to hear from you about this. How are you going to become empowered and appreciate the fact that pleasure is your right? Thank you both very much.

Now, there have been plenty of films over the years about boys coming of age and behaving rather badly. There was American Pie, Superbad and The Inbetweeners. And now there's one for girls. It's called Booksmart. It's directed by Olivia Wilde and is about Molly and Beanie, best friends who've spent their school days working hard to get the results to take them to the best universities and avoiding any partying or racy teenage pursuits. On the eve of graduation from school, they realise their colleagues who did have some fun have also done well academically so they decide to catch up on the party scene we only have one night left to have studied and partied in high school otherwise

we're just gonna be the girls that missed out we haven't done anything we haven't broken any rules okay we've broken a lot of rules one we have fake IDs fake college IDs so we can get into their 24-hour library name one person Rules. Okay. We've broken a lot of rules. One, we have fake IDs. Fake college IDs so we can get into their 24-hour library. Name one person whose life was so much better because they broke a couple of rules. Picasso. Yes, he broke art rules. Name a person who broke a real rule.

Rosa Parks. Name another one. Susan B. Anthony. God damn it. Nobody knows that we are fun. We know. They need to know. Who is they? We are not one-dimensional.

We are smart and fun. We know they need to know. Who is they? We are not one-dimensional. We are smart and fun. Well, the film has been described as one of the most perfect coming-of-age films. So, what will it say to the young women who go to see it? Sophie Foxley is a film student and joins us on the line. Karen Krasanovic is a film critic. Karen, what did Booksmart say to you about the way we see women on the screen today? Well, it said to me that female friendships are very, very important, but also sexuality, sexual preference, gender bias, and what you're wearing really isn't that important. The two girls are very, very close to each other, although there's no sexual relationship. One of them is a lesbian, the other one is straight. What did you really make of their

friendship? I thought it was perfectly acceptable. I think American high school is a very pressurized society. And to link up with a friend, with a teammate, as it were, is very, very important. And I don't think that sexuality generally, because they will have sorted that out. I mean, she would have come out with her friend. She would have probably told Molly first. Amy is the lesbian. And what's interesting, and not to have a spoiler, but Amy's parents think that Molly is her lover. And Molly loves that, plays along with it. And Amy's like, and not to have a spoiler, but Amy's parents think that Molly is her lover. And Molly loves that and plays along with it. And Amy's like, no, friend, friend.

So there is a clarification that you can have a romance between women, but it can be platonic romance. It's like a bromance, only a womance. Sophie, what did you make of their friendship? You're closer to their age than either Karen or I yeah um I thought that friendship was wonderful um as Karen said with one of them being gay and one of them being straight um I think that's something that's not really portrayed um I've never seen that portrayed before in the media um and I think it's amazing to see that portrayed in such a you know they still do the very sort of um intimate things that are very platonic like holding hands and like good points

they have like their arms around each other um and it's really not sexualized or anything like that even though one of them is gay and I think that's a lovely sort of dynamic to see on screen but how realistic is it I i was sitting there asking myself is this realistic or is it idealistic do girls really behave like this with each other um i i think it it is quite realistic i i've definitely i very much found the relationship they had relatable to many of my relationships with like like, various friends that I have. There were so many moments where I was like, you know, we did that exact thing last week. Like what?

Oh, like, so there's a bit right at the beginning of the film. And Amy comes to pick Molly up from her house to drive her to school. And they're just sort of dancing in the middle of the street. And I will be mid-conversation with some of my friends and we'll be at home or something and we'll just randomly start dancing while having a conversation and things like that. And just things like the hand-holding and stuff,

I do that with my friends when you're very close to someone. On Sophie's assessment, realistic. We should go dance right now, you and me. Realistic, not idealistic. I think it is realistic on the ground, but I think if you look at it historically, and this is a pivotal film. I'm arguing that this is going to be a cult film.

I mean, it is already. It's already a classic, a classic cult. But I think in previous generations, this would have been idealistic. It would have been nice if we could have done that. And now they can. I do find it a little bit of a fantasy, simply because everyone is, it's a rounded character. It's a very uplifting story. People learn about the detriments of judging people. But it's quite gentle and it doesn't have any of that mean girl edge, which frankly, I don't miss.

What message, though, Sophie, do you think the film has about the importance of working hard? Said someone who beat her children up if they didn't do their homework properly. The ones who had fun also got into good universities. I think it's a good message.

I was definitely more on the sort of Molly and Amy side growing up where I put working hard ahead of having fun in a lot of cases. But I think it's a really great message on both sides to sort of say, you know what, you can still work really hard and have fun but also to the the people who do have a lot of fun it's like well you can still have that fun and not worry about not getting into um good universities and etc um while still you know having fun and doing your thing as long as you work hard on the side how much studying and partying did you do karen i did a lot of partying and and I think I relied on natural gifts.

Also, I went to a university that wasn't very good. So, yeah, I kind of majored in partying, I think, frankly. But my word usements are pretty good, so I think I did all right. The film is very open about sexuality, as we've said, masturbation. Very, very funny thing with a panda, but we won't go into any more detail with that. And what you look like, fat or thin, seems not to matter. How refreshing did you find that?

That was very refreshing because it's so easy. I mean, and I think that the, again, a spoiler, when the women get transformed into dolls, we understand this whole nature of, this is ridiculous. They're transformed into Barbie dolls, basically, or Cindy dolls. But they have no clothes and they're looking at themselves

and they just have, I just have bumps where there's breasts and my legs are too long. But I really like it. But I shouldn't. So I think the whole nature of media pressure to look like a model all the time has been exposed very cleverly. And also, it never bothers Molly. Molly never refers to herself as overweight or anything like that, and nobody else does either.

Sophie, what did you make of that? Yeah, I also thought that was very refreshing. You know, in sort of that age group, people don't look like, you know, models and actors and stuff anyway as much, you know in um sort of that age group um people don't look like you know models and actors and stuff anyway as much you know often in these sort of movies I mean I think a lot of the actors in this movie are in their early 20s but there's often like shows like Glee had actors who were in their 30s playing you know 17 18 year olds and 17 18-olds don't look like people who are in their 30s. Olivia Wilde, Karen, the director, is sort of begging for there to be a big audience to show studio bosses that there's a market for this type of film.

Will she succeed? Well, the problem with Hollywood is that it's very bottom-line oriented. So they will judge this film, and they have judged this film, on its weekend box office, which has been $10 million. I don't know what the production budget was, but it was released against some very strong other films. And there was some discussion that Annapurna did not market the film properly. For example, they're saying there were no billboards,

which I guess is important. But I think she was saying that this film needed to be seen and ought to be seen, which I believe. But I think in the nature of things, it's going to have a long tail. So as it stands, it's not a successful film in Hollywood terms. There is another film, which I know you're interested in, Late Night, which is about to come out, that you're keen to talk about. I really want to talk about it. I haven't seen it. I'm sorry that you haven't.

You really must. It's Emma Thompson as a legendary talk show host whose ratings are plummeting. So she has to bring, she's known as a woman who hates women. So she brings on board Molly Patel, played by Mindy Kaling, who is basically a chemical plant efficiency worker with a comic side. And she has to enter into this vicious world of comedy writing. It is an incredibly interesting film about the nature of success, of comedy. It's very funny, but also Emma Thompson's character is actually slightly more male.

I was talking to Karen Krasanovic and Sophie Foxley. Now, lots of you enjoyed the topics we covered in the news panel. Metadata tweeted, I'm no Theresa May fan, but the media treated her with such indignity when she resigned. The picture used was of her ugly crying. Cameron got a picture of him wiping away a tear oh so gently and with dignity. She was always the old ugly woman with fancy shoes. Rebecca tweeted, loving the angry women on Women's Hour.

No doubt there will be complaints. Hashtag feminist. But Yvonne emailed, I'm not a feminist, and yes, I'm very female, and would like to receive the same wage for a job as men, but the females of today have taken things too far, and listening to them talk makes me want to curl up. I feel sorry for men, because they've been put in such a position. Even trying to date a woman is dangerous ground.

It's been taken too far. Richard emailed, I can't believe I'm hearing this, men around May trying to undermine her. Laura Gunzberg has spent the last three years undermining Theresa May. Most women have hated her for all the time she's been PM. Miranda emailed, goodness, continuing health care, getting some informed airtime on Women's Hour, and makes it clear that care for dementia is not often treated as an NHS illness and unlawfully becomes means-tested social care. Helen told us about her experience of caring. She emailed, So true, wonderful discussion all round.

I'm currently a carer for my two parents and have also been a professional domiciliary carer. Terrible job from the point of view of paying conditions and hours. I was asked by my friends, why don't you and fellow professional workers complain? Answer, fatigue, own family commitments to help with, just a need to not rock the boat because it's easier that way, and who can cope with extra pressure except for the very strong and brave. We did receive a tweet from a group of

carers who say that they are campaigning for a better deal and they're called WeCare. And then on the topic of women's sexual desire, Sarah emailed, A sexless marriage is lonely. I always made the first move, so I decided I'd wait for him to make the first move. Two years later, tumbleweed. Facing a life of celibacy is very depressing, lonely and feels shameful. I tried talking and even bought Viagra. And then on hearing the stories of you that you'd sent to us on this topic, Paddy tweeted, this is quite comforting for those who might blame

themselves for someone else's indifference. Francis tweeted, I'm sure someone on Momengar just said they'd been to a squirting workshop. I looked it up. Really wish I hadn't. Still don't know what it is. And on the topic of squirting, Robert emailed, it's not a disgrace allowing topics like this one to be discussed particularly by women at this time of day. I hope the BBC issued the appropriate content morning for those with children before the programme went out. Squirting workshop, I mean, honestly.

Now, do join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour when you can hear Eve Ensler, who wrote The Vagina Monologues, talking about her new book, The Apology. It's a letter that she has imagined from her now late father, apologising to her for his sexual, physical and emotional abuse. Do join me at four o'clock tomorrow afternoon if you can. Until then, bye bye.

Sixty seconds. We choose to go to the moon. Forty feet down, two and a half. Neil said we can't land here. Everyone is sitting there not knowing what has happened. We might not make it. I'm Kevin Fong, and 50 years on, I'll be telling the story of the Apollo moon landings in a brand new podcast from the BBC World Service. That's just crazy to try and do something as dangerous as that around the moon. 100 feet, 3 1⁄2 down, 940.

I thought, wow, what have I gotten myself into? I'm looking at my displays and I am in big trouble. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.