Woman's Hour - Women's sport, Muslim women ex-offenders, Introverts, Sustainable fashion.

Episode Date: July 19, 2019

How best can we harness the huge amount of interest created by recent big sporting moments to inspire more women and girls to take up sport? Jenni is joined by Dame Katherine Grainger who is Britain��s most decorated female Olympic athlete of all time and Chair of UK Sport. Ali Oliver is the current CEO of Youth Sport Trust and has worked in education and sports development for 20 years and Iqra Ismail a 19-year-old football player and the Founder of NUR (‘Never Underestimate Resilience’) Women’s Football Club, an organisation that aims to increase BAME females’ participation in football.A new report has found that female Muslim offenders face very real challenges returning to their communities after release - particularly due to honour and feelings of shame - and that attitudes to men are more forgiving. Jenni speaks to Sofia Buncy, who is the Founder and Coordinator of the Muslim Women in Prison Rehabilitation Project and is author of the report, Sisters in Desistance: Community-based Solutions For Muslim Women Post-Prison. The owner of Zara and other brands like Pull & Bear and Bershka have announced that by 2025, 100% of the cotton, linen and polyester used will be organic, sustainable or recycled. So how significant is this move? And what does sustainable mean in the context of a high-volume fashion business? We hear from Tamsin Lejeune CEO & Founder of Common Objective and Ethical Fashion ForumThe dress historian Amber Butchart has been finding out about the history of some of the essential summer wardrobe staples. Today, the kaftan.Jessica Pan, a shy introvert, set herself the challenge of living as an extrovert for a year. She forced herself to speak to strangers, take improv classes, perform stand-up comedy. Her book is entitled Sorry I’m late, I didn’t want to come. She joins Jenni to share what she learnt from the experience.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Dianne McGregor

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Friday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. In today's programme, an extraordinary summer of women's sport. What impact will the football, the tennis, the netball and the cricket have on girls and women who might have been inspired to play the game themselves. As the Zara fashion brand claims it'll only be selling organic, sustainable or recycled clothing, how significant is such a move in the massive fashion industry? And sorry I'm late, I didn't want to come. Jessica Pan's memoir sees an introvert attempt to become an extrovert.

A report published this week by the Muslim Women in Prison Project claims that a woman who is a Muslim faces serious difficulties when she's released having completed her sentence. The report suggests that honour and shame play a significant role in making it hard for them to return to their families. Yasmin served two years for drug offences and spoke to Shabnam Mahmood of the BBC's Asian Network about what happened on her release. What was on her mind when she came out of prison?

Getting out into the community and then trying to find work and all that stigma around the community, what they're going to think of me and my family, shame I've brought into the community and to the family, you know, how am I going to cope with that? There's just so many things that were going through my head. It was really daunting for me, yeah. As a young Pakistani Muslim woman,

what kind of reaction did you get from family or community? Oh, it was like my mum was absolutely devastated because nobody in my whole family, like a female, had ever gone to prison. So it was really daunting for her. It was really kind of like, you know, embarrassing. God, what are people going to think? And she was really, really traumatised, you know. It was horrible.

A lot of women in your position have described it as one sentence that they serve inside jail, but then there's another sentence outside jail do you identify with that it's all that stigma around shame and the lack of understanding from our communities our women are supposed to go to prison you know they're supposed to be homemakers and look after children going to prison is a totally that could be taboo kind of thing so for my mom it was like if anybody did ask I didn't know she'd say oh she's working away she just said she's out of town working.

We have to deal with, you know, the families, what the family's going to think, what the community's going to think. You know, am I going to be able to go out in the community and are people going to point fingers at me? You know, are they going to think I'm something really bad because I don't want to be going around telling everybody, you know, it wasn't my fault or it wasn't this or it wasn't that, you know. So, yeah, it is really, really daunting.

But to what extent are the difficulties faced by a former offender who is Muslim worse than those faced by any other woman as she leaves prison? Sophia Buncey is the founder and national coordinator of the Muslim Women in Prison Project, and she's one of the authors of the report, and she joins us from Bradford. Sophia, what sort of numbers of Muslim women in prison are we talking about? So Muslim women make up about 6% of the female prison estate. So we're probably looking at fluctuating around 250, 260 women in prison. And what range of crimes are they imprisoned for?

The range of crimes are quite various, Jenny. I know when I've had conversations with people, people assume that perhaps Muslim women are beyond criminality. It's not something that they'd stereotypically put a Muslim woman down as engaging in. But the women that I've dealt with have had various backgrounds. So it could be something like a sham marriage. It could be something as a poverty related crime and then goes further along into more complex crime as as with yasmin drug related crimes or something involving um manslaughter or more of a violent crime and what length of sentence have you found

is typical again jenny they're quite various but short sentences are very common short sentences are very common um but again each case is very unique and and our intervention on that case is quite tailored as well but we are seeing an increase in the number of drug related crimes that are coming through so they carry a certain sentence of a number of years. Who are the women that you spoke to to carry out your research? So the women we spoke to were the women that we've been working with over the project over a period of about six years so it was women that we had supported through the gate so our work is carried out at HMP Newhall and Ascombe Grange

prisons so these were women who we'd supported through their journey as they come out of prison and back into the community. So they were actually based on real life case studies, as well as focus groups that we conducted with women in the Bradford community. Now we heard briefly there from Yasmin, what other experiences did the women you spoke to relate of trying to return to their homes and their families? I think some of those experiences are internal to the community and some are external challenges that they face. So internally, I know we looked within our report at various areas

like the cultural traumas, the emotional, the structural inequalities that we face. So one of the very real fears that women had was a fear that social norms and cultural expectations would make it quite difficult or impossible for them to gain any form of normality within the family or the community the whole issue of honour and how that played out and the fact that they had then by committing an offence breached that honour what would be the response of their families? What would be the response of the communities? Externally, the women had some very real fears around, for example, the current spike in the culture of discrimination or Islamophobia.

And then when you add the fact that you're a woman that's been to prison within that dynamic, it can sometimes become quite complex. And then the very real issue of accessing provision you know not knowing where to access help and support whether that was with housing or benefits or mental health again which is a very stigmatized area of need within the muslim community where does one start after becoming quite institutionalized once having done a sentence in prison. How does the reception of the women on release compare with that of male offenders on their release? I think any person that's been to prison is quite stigmatised.

As with most communities, there seems to be a sense of normalisation with Muslim men going to prison. They are very disproportionate in number. There's over 12,000 Muslim men in prison. So I think communities can have a differential attitude towards men where it's, you know, oh, he's offended, he'll come back, he'll recover. It's a bit more normalised, whereas for a Muslim...

So he doesn't suffer from honour and shame when he comes back? There'll be a smaller level of marring, but not as much as a Muslim woman, because within the community, there's a bit of a tag that actually it's women who hold the honour of the family name, and therefore they're more likely to breach that honour as well.

And it is a male guardianship within that family that is deemed as respecting that woman's honour as well. So I know within this report, we've looked at the fragility of honour and how that connects with Muslim women and criminality. And that, again, is linked to social standing within families. So the social standing, which, you know, within it sometimes takes generations to build up, you know, it affects the family's reputation once a woman does go to prison. And they have spent years building this up in terms of educating to a certain standard, monetary gain, marrying into equally successful families. And so once a woman goes to prison, everything that you've done sort of becomes undone because there's been a breach.

She is deemed as being dishonourable and that dishonourable act then has an impact on the rest of the family and honour is carried by all members of the family but unfortunately shame is carried by individuals and what we were finding was some of these women were carrying that shame and internalising that shame alone not knowing perhaps what their fate was. We know that female offenders, whether they're Muslim or otherwise,

can have difficulties on release. How many of the women that you've spoken to have suffered domestic violence, sexual abuse and been drawn into drugs? I think, again, that's a very hidden area and this is one of the reasons why as a grassroots community practitioners we researched because we understood as a community perhaps we're not so good at having these very important conversations. Disclosure of that and I know post-release we've had disclosures from women of difficult backgrounds and this was something identified in our first report women having difficult backgrounds where they were not

disclosing where they felt like they had to self-sacrifice so there are women past the gate who will then say you know I did have a difficult background domestic violence sexual violence coercion into something and it's a fear what is a fear that stops them from disclosing? You know, there's very real implications around will anyone believe you if you disclose? The implication on, you know, your parents if you disclose, the implications on your children. Again, this is to do with social standing and cultural capital within the community. Quite often women are told that if they do disclose, you know, think of your family, keep the silence, just sacrifice,

because it'll have a negative impact on the entire family if you do. So there is a lot of work to be done in the prevention space as well about allowing safe disclosures and really breaking the silence because I think it's that very silence that is allowing this to perpetuate.

I know the Labour MP David Lammy has called for an inquiry into the needs of Muslim women in prison. What might such an inquiry achieve and what do you think would help these women? Yeah, David Lammy has definitely called for, he's made some recommendations for a review into black Asian minority ethnic women in prison. It's an area and a group of women who are so vast.

So it's not just Muslim women under that banner. You know, you have traveller women under the Afro-Caribbean women, foreign national women. And I think such an inquiry could really help towards looking at the very complex and unique intersection of gender, race, faith, the social reality of these women, the cultural reality, and really put on the table the lack of culturally appropriate interventions that are available for these women. This is really a recommendation and a strong recommendation that would look at equality and the unique recognition of women and where they sit, what their reality is,

and also allowing the appropriate interventions to be put in place for those women. And if not, what's happening is those women pretty much remain invisible throughout the CJS. Sophia Bonte, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. Now, the owners of the fashion brand Zara have made an announcement this week about sustainability. They say that all the cotton, linen and polyester they use will be organic, sustainable or recycled by 2025. It's a very high volume fashion business with 64 shops around the UK and many more worldwide. So how significant is their announcement and how sustainable will they be able to be? Tamzin Dajan is the Chief Executive of the Business Network Common Objective and the founder

of the Ethical Fashion Forum. Tamzin, how important is this change? This is significant. Zara are part of Inditex, which is the third largest apparel company in the world, and over 1.5 billion pieces of clothing produced every year. So it's significant, it's meaningful. I think they've made major commitments in relation to the way clothes are produced and the fabrics that are used.

What's important is not to miss the elephant in the room. Which is what? Which is that with the volume of production, one of the major challenges with the fashion industry at present is that we are producing and throwing away fashion at a rapid rate and you can change the way fashion is produced but if you continue to produce very high volumes you're not addressing the root of the problem.

But recycling is going to help that, surely? And that's one of the things that they say they're going to do. Yep recycling is important and I don't want to belittle the impact of what they're doing it's really important for several reasons going out there and talking about what they're doing is is going to be impactful for many other businesses the CEOs of other companies sitting in boardrooms, everyone who works within the fashion industry will be incentivized and motivated by this commitment. So, but what does sustainable actually mean when, as you say, hundreds of millions, squillions of garments a year are going to be produced. Yeah, so sustainability in fashion is complex.

It's not like a simple product like a banana. There are many different aspects to it, which makes it quite confusing for the consumer to know what is sustainable and what isn't. I think that there are two aspects to sustainability in fashion. One is the quality of the product and the production processes. So that's everything from how much energy is used in the process, how much water, chemicals, reducing chemicals, reducing the impact of each individual item on the environment. That's quality. And then there's quantity, which is often ignored. So sitting alongside, you know, you can reduce your impacts by 50%, but if you're doubling your production, then you're rendering that impact inexorable.

Now, in May, some MPs produced a fixing fashion report with measures to try and curb the polluting effect of the fashion industry. The government rejected those recommendations. So what would have prompted this move, if not political pressure? So, yeah, disappointing that the recommendations were rejected. They had the support of the industry, leadership across the industry, and a constructive and practical solution to move forward. I think the changes that we're seeing, Greta Thunberg saying starkly,

this is a crisis and we need to act like it's a crisis, has been taken to heart by thousands of professionals and people within the fashion industry for whom operating differently really matters. And they recognise that. So I think what we're missing and what real leadership, the real leadership I'd like to see in our organisation, common objective I'd like to see would be those who are in positions of decision-making looking beyond the quantity, the quality issues and considering bold moves. And we're a creative sector.

You know, the fashion industry has some of the most creative minds in the entire world. Our job is design. The process of design is creative problem solving it's finding ways to get around solutions and if we as an industry can collectively put our minds to the biggest problem we face which is the business model what are the clever ways that we can change the paradigm not just in relation to the way we produce and carrying on with the current model. But what clever ways are there to solve that? To make money, because that's all these companies are after,

is selling fashion to make money. Yeah, well, the current model, which is producing a lot, selling it fast, encouraging consumers to buy again and again, is very lucrative. But there are alternatives, And an exciting one of those is rental. So moving beyond an ownership model, which does require a shift in mindset. And we've seen a shift in mindset in the past when fashion moved online, when net-a-porter began, people didn't really believe that consumers were going to buy fashion product online we need

the same sort of shift when it comes to the idea of you can rent a piece of clothing rather than owning it so how likely are other brands to follow Zara I think very likely I think the fact they've made this bold stance is really important where whether we'll see a rapid shift towards addressing the elephant in the room, that's the big question. How much sustainable fashion is actually on the market at the moment? This is an interesting question. So we recently produced a report mapping the industry as part of the Common Rejective site,

which looked at how fashion is produced. And that found that less than 1% of all the fashion sold on the UK high street is actively promoted as sustainable. So it's a very tiny proportion, more than that is actually sustainable. And part of this is a willingness, there's a lack of willingness amongst brands and retailers to talk about what they're doing. And this is why Zara's announcement is important, because our research demonstrates that the availability of sustainable project increases demand, increases awareness, it moves everything forward. Tamzina Jan, thank you very much indeed for being with us and we would like to hear from you. What kind of

fashion do you buy? How many pieces do you have currently in your wardrobe? Thank you very much. Now still to come in today's programme, sorry I'm late but I didn't want to come. Jessica Pan's memoir of being an introvert who tried

to become an extrovert and the serial, the final episode of Moon. Now, even those of us who are not necessarily known for a keen interest in sport have found ourselves getting much more excited than we expected as this summer has progressed. First, it was the Women's Football World Cup, then young Coco Goff set Wimbledon alight, as did the winner, Simona Halep.

Now, the Netball World Cup is on in Liverpool tomorrow, England play New Zealand in the semi-final. The England women's cricket team were dominated yesterday by Australia on day one of the Ashes, but there is more to go. Well, what impact will the sight of so many women playing their sport very well and getting recognition for it have on the next generation of young women and girls? Well, I'm joined from Liverpool by Catherine Granger, Britain's most decorated female Olympic athlete of all time. Her sport was rowing and she's now the chair of UK Sport. Ikra Ismail is a student football player and the founder of NUR Women's Football Club. And Ali Oliver is the chief executive of the Youth Sport Trust

and she joins us from Dorchester. Ali, in 2012, when the Olympics took place in London, we all expected a huge rise in enthusiasm for sport, but it didn't happen. Why not? Well, it's a really interesting point, particularly in the context of the summer of sport and how we maximise that and make sure that what results is a response to people's interest and particularly young people's enthusiasm for taking part in sport but I think what we have to acknowledge is actually there have been increases in participation since London Olympic and Paralympic Games not perhaps dramatic to the extent that we would have wanted but that has to be seen in the light of what else has changed in society since 2012 in those seven years we've had huge austerity, we've had a massive increase in the

influence of the digital age particularly on young people and within education we know we've seen 51,000 hours of physical education lost from the curriculum as other subjects have taken priority so there is lots of good work that's been done in the sports sector and we have seen increases in engagement but we've got to work harder and faster to respond to the environmental issues around us. Ikra, 19 years old what got you started as a footballer? Honestly I've been playing football since I was I think about eight years old and might have actually got started out of defiance I think some people didn't really have the right mindset

towards a girl that looks like me, who's young, black and Muslim, wearing a hijab, playing football. So I sort of just got into it more because I genuinely enjoyed it and because people said I couldn't, essentially. I was that child. But yeah, I love football, I loved watching it, I love playing it. My older brother's a massive Chelsea fan, as am I. So I sort of got started there and I haven't really looked back since. But when you look at other girls, women, you

are now a woman at the age of 19, but girls and women, you look at others of your sort of age and maybe a little bit younger. What would you say are the barriers to girls taking up sport now? To a girl that looks like me, I'd say that it is very deeply rooted in the community around us and the fact that they don't know much about the sport and they might not know much about women involved in the sport. And with a lack of knowledge comes discomfort, which is why a lot of them sort of have these sorts of mindsets about young girls not really playing sport and that kind of thing. So the advice I'd give to them essentially is just sort of keep your head up and

just just keep going be resilient essentially and just ensure that you don't let the opinions of those around you who don't know as well to affect your ability to play. Catherine what got you started on the sport you were really rather good at rolling yeah i mean ironically it wasn't a sport i had sort of targeted or focused or thought about or done you know since i was at school it was something i fell into when i was at university and you know a lot of sport is about accessibility and either you know getting in because like you were saying her you know her brother loved football or because someone in your family does or because you've got clubs or things on your doorstep and that accessibility is huge so when I went to university suddenly the doors opened up to all these different sports and organizations and clubs that I had an opportunity

to try with so I got into it by chance and I and I first of all fell in love with the environment of it I love the people I love the friendships I made I love the the outdoors bit of it before I ever took it seriously to think I could take it you know to the olympic stage and how much did you love the really hard competitive side of it uh yeah anyone listening who knows me would be waiting for this answer because they know i'm very competitive by nature but but initially it wasn't that i mean it's a it's a hard sport and any sport you take to a very serious level will, by nature, be a tough, tough road to follow. But part of that, I think when you want to be in that world, part of the attraction is because it's hard. It's not everyone can do it or would want to do it.

But most people I know who've been very successful at the highest level all began with a real love for it, a real passion for it. And that actually stays throughout your career. That sits at the heart of why you do it even with all the the other big you know the attractions the olympic games and wearing the flag and being part of the national team and the the influence and impact you can have at the heart of it you know there's still just a part of you that just loves going out there and playing that sport. Iger you laughed when I said the word competitive why? Honestly anyone that knows me my friends um my family know that I'm just word competitive. Why? Honestly, anyone that knows me, my friends, my family know that I'm just as competitive.

As I said, I started playing a sport out of defiance. I don't think you get more competitive than that, essentially. I've always just wanted to seek challenge. I think when I was about 13, around that age, I went to a trial for a club four years in a row and got rejected all four times. So competitive essentially is in my blood because I saw that these people were better than me. And I went and I bettered myself.

And eventually I did get into that team. So, yeah, competition runs in my blood, essentially. Ali, this is a fact that fewer girls get involved in sport than boys. Why does that continue to be the case? Sadly, yes, that is the case and um our research the youth sport trust run a significant project with funding from sport england and the national lottery called girls active and we've been able to harness 20 000 young people's voices and what comes across really strongly and it was picked up there by both Catherine and Ingrid in their answers about if it's not fun, if young girls and women lack the confidence, i.e. they of dynamic of the role models, young women particularly at a point in their life where they're becoming very self-conscious,

body changes, etc. Those three reasons, fun, lack of confidence and peer influence, continue to mean that girls' participation is lower than boys'. Boys, again, based on the research, tend to find sport more innately fun than girls. They tend to, and these generalisations, of course, there are exceptions and populations that represent different behaviours, but they tend to enjoy competition. We've talked about competition already. And if girls are presented with a physical education and sport offer, where the activities are wholly competitive, if it's a very narrow range of sports. Again,

Catherine spoke about going to university and suddenly the world opens up in terms of sport and there are all new sorts of things to try. We've got to give young women a range of experiences, focus on the relevance to them, you know, does it allow them to form strong bonds and friendships with others? Does it allow them to build their self-confidence, have a sense of feeling good and looking good? If we can reposition and reframe physical education sport in the context of today's young women, then I think we have a chance, and again, the Girls Active programme is showing,

with the focus on those sorts of interests, we've been able to double the number of young women that are interested and enjoy and therefore engage more frequently in physical activity in their lives so katherine what kind of impact do you reckon this summer of sport is having on inspiring women and girls and saying hey it's okay and it's okay to be really good at this i think it's huge and i think what's great is so much uh of females playing sport is is now very visible you know we talked about the Lionesses when you introduced this area.

And there's record-breaking audiences both in the stadiums themselves during the Women's Football World Cup, but also on television. And as soon as you can see these fantastic women playing this sport, there's a sense of, oh, you know, I'd like to try that myself. I'm up in Liverpool at the moment and the Netball World Cup is here. And there's an incredible buzz around the city about there's lots of go and have a go and try again and they're trying to get not just a lot of young

people but also people who might have played it when they were at school themselves. But again we know the pressure's on women. You're not taking up netball are you Catherine as a result? I'm glad it's radio. I'm slightly blushing because I'm actually taking, I'm going back to the court this weekend because there's a big charity match for sport relief

with netball with a mixture of athletes and celebrities and comedians taking part in that so I'm going through what a lot of people do when they haven't played it for a long time that's like nervousness that's like what am I going to look like back on the netball court but I'm doing it in the case of charity

and I'm actually thrilled about it and there's lots of us gathering and we haven't done it for a long time. And there's that recapturing, that joy that sits within a sport. Again, for me, it's about playing with other people. It's about that great thing you get together, that community. But I think between that, between the men's cricket World Cup, which has obviously been huge this summer. But I was back in Lores two years ago at the women's cricket World Cup.

A huge sellout crowd. And I was hearing in Lors two years ago at the Women's Cricket World Cup, a huge sellout crowd. And I was hearing this amazing stat that the last time that England hosted the Men's Cricket World Cup, there was only 93 cricket clubs that offered cricket for girls, and now there's over 800. So there has been a big sea change in women and girls being able to access sport. And I think the more we see it, the more we see it in the media and on television and see people taking part and the joy they're getting in it, the more hopefully women of all ages and young girls

will feel that they should try too and they'd like to get involved for whatever reason, whether it's competitive or just playing. Igri, what role models do you have in your sport, football? I mean, it was so big this summer, wasn't it? Yeah, no, honestly, the women's game is has grown so much especially due to the lionesses going so far and just the belief that the country had in them and for the first time in a very long time I think 2015 was was quite solid but this this is

it's record-breaking um as Ali said um so the support that's been behind them and everything like that so in terms of role models there's a lot of girls that are going to look at the Lionesses and think, this is possible for me, which is something that wasn't really present earlier. But I think there is an issue that still isn't being addressed in terms of when you look at that England squad, that Lionesses squad, and when you compare it to the men's squad also especially, you don't see a lot of diversity in there. So a young girl that might look like me isn't going to see

many black players in that team. They're not going to see many Muslim players in that team,'re not going to see many muslim players in that team any muslim players in that team wearing a hijab or otherwise so i feel like the idea of role models is amazing in terms of generally as women and girls but i think we need to break it down a little bit further and look further into the more underrepresented groups like the bame girls and and such and such why did you start your own club as a young girl um i always looked for somewhere to belong, as everyone does. You look for people that look similar to you and people that make you feel like you're at home. And going from club to club, I realised that I didn't find that.

And I feel like it was so important for me as a person to have that experience of character building and have those people around me. So I just want to provide that experience that I didn't have for these other girls, these girls that currently the sessions are 16 plus. So the girls that might come and have PE sessions every week and those girls that are 28, 29 that haven't kicked the ball in about 10 years. So it is just about providing that sort of family experience and that home that they're missing on the football pitch. Ali, I take Ikra's point that diversity was not widely seen in the football. But how much would you say girls at school generally are seeing some of the women,

like Lucy Bronze of the Lionesses or young Coco Goff, as role models heroes thinking yeah I mean Coco's only 15 thinking yeah I could do that She's quite awesome isn't she yes I think that's one of the big things that is changing and actually one of the great opportunities we have off the back of

this summer of sport is to harness this moment of these amazing role models and of course Icra's absolutely right that there's still more to be done around diversity, but for sure we have a more diverse representation of young women across all those teams we've talked about, whether it's the football, the netball, the cricket, in the tennis.

We're seeing more and more different people and, you know, incredibly powerful role models who will allow a sense of someone like me for a broader range of young women so I think it's really important but probably the most important thing at a practical level that those involved in physical education and school sport or indeed community sport can do is reach out to those that we're not currently reaching to at the moment and the most basic thing we can do is listen to and understand what are the barriers and what adaptations and changes we might make whether it's the type of activity whether it's the environment

for the activity again some of the research has shown us that in different schools girls sometimes want girls only PE in sports sometimes they want it mixed and sometimes they want it purely in ability groups um so what we're doing at the youth sport trust again through this this girls active program with a lot of help from great research from from women in sport is encourage PE teachers now to make the young women in their care and the girls in their care their first point of reference for what would you like to see as the sports on the curriculum how would you like them to be delivered and indeed can you help us um inspire and engage your peers because by the time young women get to secondary schools um actually the influence of elite athletes and to some degree parents and teachers is waning and the influence now is in the peer group and particularly with

social media some of those big influencers online so online. So there's a real message here about role models. As a former PE teacher, I can look back now and know that I might have been a role model perhaps for maybe 20% of the young women in my care and actually there were far more powerful influencers within that peer group and what I could have done and what we're helping PE teachers now to do is think more about how do we listen to young women?

How do we empower them and give them a voice? Ali, Oliver, Ikra, Ismail, Catherine Granger, enjoy the netball. Thank you all very much indeed for being with us this morning. And we'd like to hear from you. What would draw you into sport? And what sport would it be?

Now, I have a little announcement to make. Next week, Woman's Hour will be taken over by five guest editors who will determine the choice of subjects to be discussed on Monday. It's Nadia Hussain, she who won Bake Off four years ago.

Harriet Wistreich, the lawyer who led on the recent cases involving John Warboys and Sally Challen, will be with us on Tuesday. Wednesday will be led by the campaigner Amica George, who started a period poverty campaign in schools. It's the Children's Laureate, Cressida Cowell, on Thursday, and Danny Cotton, Commissioner of the London Fire Brigade, on Friday. You will have to join us throughout the week to see what sort of things they come up with. Now, Jessica Pan tended to define herself as an introvert.

She was shy and preferred to spend her spare time at home on her sofa rather than making the effort to go out and meet people. Then she decided to try and become an extrovert, setting herself tests to see whether she could find it easy to make friends and speak to them or even talk to complete strangers. Her memoir of her year of effort is called Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come. Jessica, what actually did you do with your spare time in your introvert days? I did a lot of reading and writing and being alone, I guess. How would you define introversion then? So I think introverts, it's generally accepted,

are people who like to recharge alone. So they get their energy from being alone. So if an introvert and an extrovert went into a party, an introvert would quickly become tired from all of the social interactions, whereas an extrovert would feel very enlivened by it. So what would the introvert do? Sort of sit on the side? No, not necessarily. I think they can be gregarious and fun and funny. It's just that after a few hours, they'd be socially drained and they'd want to come home and be alone to recharge. Why did you decide to try and change? What was obviously your natural persona? Well, I reached this very low point about a year ago where I'm a freelancer. I started working from home. I was alone all day. My career was stagnating. And I felt like a lot of my friends in London had moved out or were having kids and moved on. And I just realized that I needed to make a

change and that I was using the label of introvert as a license to say no to anything I wanted to say no to. And so I thought I would just go out and do all of these things like talking to strangers and performing that I've been running away from my entire life to see what would happen. How would you fit it in with your family who seem to have been extroverts? Yes, both my parents are very chatty, extroverted. And I was always, I think, the shyest person in my family. I have two older brothers who are also very chatty. And my parents, you know, to show their love,

they would throw me these big birthday parties when I was little. And I was a shy kid and I didn't understand why they were doing that because I hated them and they didn't understand why I didn't love them because that was how they were showing their love. How did you then start your attempt to become extrovert? Well, it was a one year experiment. And I, the first thing I did was I started to talk to strangers, which was terrifying. And so I had to enlist extrovert mentors like psychologists along the way who could coach me through this and give me professional help. So what did you do? You're sitting on the tube. Somebody comes and sits

next to you. This is in London where people don't necessarily choose to talk to each other. What happened? Well, actually, it was even worse than that, in that I was too scared to even say hello to people. So I talked to the psychologist in the US called Stefan Hoffman. And he said that I should actually actively humiliate myself again and again to get over my social anxiety. And so he thought the best way to do that was to stop people on the tube in London and ask them, excuse me, I just forgot. Is there a Queen of England? And if so, what is her name? Because that question would definitely humiliate me. And then I would realize that actually everything was fine. People might think I'm stupid, but I survived. What did they answer you? Yes, of course,

there's a Queen of England. She's called Elizabeth. Honestly, the most incredible thing happened where I finally got the nerve to do this. I flagged down this man coming towards me and I said, excuse me, I just forgot. And he was like, what? And I said, is there a Queen of England? And if so, what is her name? And he said, it's Victoria. And I was so shocked by that, that it completely shocked me out of my shyness. And I couldn't believe that. And I stopped another man straight after that. And I asked the same question. And he said, it's Victoria. So honestly, like, you don't know what's going to happen when you talk to these people. But where did you go then? I mean, you knew perfectly well that the current Queen of England is not called Victoria. What did you say to them? Well, they thought I didn't even

know there was a queen. So I couldn't then correct them. It felt like that would be like entrapment. So I just sort of moved on. And then I asked for women and they each told me calmly, Elizabeth. So I have some faith. Why did you try to do stand up comedy? Because that was my biggest fear. It was what I call the Everest of my year. It combines talking to strangers, performance, some improv. And also, it's a kind of a hostile environment so I just wanted to see what would happen and it was terrifying and I failed some and I succeeded some which were the successful ones I mean did you have good jokes did you have anybody to help you with your joke I took a beginner's class at King's Cross. And that's where I met these amazing

friends. And I think when you do something as terrifying as stand up comedy, you need that social support of people around you who are also equally terrified to help prop you up. And, you know, a big part of this year was also trying to make new friends, which was a hard thing to do as an adult. And I met some amazing friends in my comedy course because we were, you know, terrified together. But actually doing comedy, even though I bombed on like the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, there was something about doing something I never, ever thought I could do. I had never imagined I could ever do that. And now I feel like my self-definition has expanded. So it feels kind of amazing, even though I bombed. What was the most helpful thing that you learned? I interviewed this psychologist named Nicholas Epley. And I was telling him about my fear of

rejection of, you know, talking to new people, or even, you know, I went on all these friend dates as well. And I felt scared to ask people to go for a coffee or a drink with me. And he told me this story about how, when he was once in Ethiopia, he was in a car and he was driving by lots of people and they all looked like they didn't like him. But then when he started waving to them, they waved back and smiled. And he said, nobody waves, but everybody waves back. And that's so true in social interactions. We often have to be the first person to say hello, to offer an olive branch, to ask them to go for a drink. And people are usually willing to do that. So what do you do now? I mean, are you still saying, sorry, I'm late, I didn't want to come?

Or are you happier to go and be an extrovert? Well, I don't think introverts can become extroverts. It was an experiment to see what would happen if I channeled their powers for one year, what I could learn. And now I feel like I have a lot less social anxiety because nothing will ever be as embarrassing as asking people who the queen is or performing stand-up comedy. And I also feel like I have more confidence to do public speaking, which is something that I've always avoided my entire life. I hate doing it, but now I know that even though I hate it I can do it. And what would you recommend to other introverts thinking hmm actually I'd quite like to be able to chat to somebody on the tube? I really think I love that idea of you know nobody waves but everybody waves back we all need

to be sometimes in our life the first person to make that move to be brave and I think that sometimes we get in the habit or rut of saying no to things or not trying new things but it's important to to be proactive because nobody's going to knock on your door and say here's this new group of friends or come join our book club or do these things we have to actually make an effort to go and do that. I was talking to Jessica Pan on sustainable fashion Rose, Rose sent an email. She said, I spent an age looking for sustainable women's work trousers last year. Couldn't find anything that was either not a few hundred pounds or slightly bizarre in cut or cloth. Come on,

manufacturers, some simple, sustainable work basics. Please. Claire said, I started making my own clothes as the best antidote to fast fashion. So therapeutic, keeps an eye on my waistline and I'm able to make all the decisions on cut and cloth. I'm hooked.

Let's hope more women do the same. Emily said, I've just pledged not to buy anything new clothes-wise for a year apart from underwear. Second-hand fashion is everywhere and amazing and cheap. Why buy new? Hannah said, I'm a fashion design student and I see the gravity of our fast fashion culture. For the last three years, I've only bought clothes from charity shops, eBay and vintage shops. I love the idea that clothes have been worn by someone else and they have a history.

It doesn't mean you have to wear clothes that appear old and boring. Even if you justify having a fast fashion piece by saying you'll have it for many years, you're kidding yourself because ultimately it will most likely be made of non-biodegradable fabric and will remain on the planet long after you're gone. On the summer of sport and the influence it might have on young women and girls taking up sport, Ruth said, I thought I was useless at sport. I hated PE lessons. As a 56 year old adult, I have gradually come to realise that I'm not that bad. Most recently, I've done a get into golf course. The instructor looks at what I'm doing and is able to get me to make shockingly good shots by correcting slight errors. I felt

quite angry when I realised that if only a teacher had been able to do this at school, Yvonne said, trivial but a lot of girls feel so self-conscious of their bodies it adds insult to injury to force them to wear ill-fitting t-shirts and pleated netball skirts to encourage them to continue enjoying sport surely a more forgiving outfit of leggings and a loose t-shirt would work better and joe said i just wanted to say we need consistent media coverage of women's sport on television, online and in the papers, not just for a couple of weeks a year. The recent coverage of Women's World Cup in Wimbledon was fantastic and showed women's sport in a very exciting way. But this is not the norm. We need to get women's sport on television rather than it being on pay-for-view, such as the recent women's super series rugby. This will help inspire young girls and women into sport. Now do join me tomorrow for weekend woman's hour when you can hear extracts from our special program about black women who

are five times more likely to die in childbirth compared with white women. We discuss imposter syndrome and, of course, the netball World Cup. Join me tomorrow, four o'clock in the afternoon, if you can. Bye-bye. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.