Woman's Hour - Women's toilets, Domestic violence, Fasting

Episode Date: May 13, 2019

Women’s loos: a place of camaraderie, retreat or even high drama? Samantha Jagger has been documenting what happens in the ladies for 10 years. She's captured candid moments between friends and strangers and her photographs, mostly taken in pubs and clubs in Manchester and Leeds, are about to be on show in an exhibition called Loosen Up. Being the child of a parent who's transitioned. Katie Sherdley, Catriona Innes and Cath Lloyd talk to Tina Daheley about it.Ramadan and taking exams: how do Muslim parents and students approach it and what do schools need to do? Education consultant, Rukshana Taqoob, and Anna Cole from the Association of School and College Leaders discuss. We also hear from two A level students in Bolton. It will be announced today that local council will have a legal duty to provide safe homes for victims of domestic abuse. We get reaction from Suzanne Jacob, CEO of SafeLives.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, welcome to Woman's Hour on Monday the 13th of May. I'm Tina Dehealy. Coming up, Ramadan has fallen during school exam time this year. We'll be discussing the impact of fasting on Muslim families, students and schools. Councils in England will now have a legal duty to provide secure homes for victims

of domestic abuse, but how will it work and how will it be paid for? And women's loos. We look at what goes on inside them as a new exhibition opens, documenting candid moments between friends and strangers. But first, I spoke to three women who don't know each other but share one thing in common. They are all daughters of a parent who's transitioned. Katie Shurdley works in online communications for a start-up in Leeds. Katrina Inez is a features director at Cosmopolitan. And Kath Lloyd is author of When Dad Became Joan, Life with My Transgender Father. And she's also a part-time stress coach.

Katie's biological parents separated when she was very young and she lived alone with her father. She told me about what life was like with Emmy. It was basically just me and her against the world really and she was amazing. She was inspirational and she was funny and she was unique. And I've never met anybody quite like her, which I guess can be the same for anybody who has a trans parent. It's not something you come across every day. She was absolutely incredible. And I miss her incredibly because fortunately she passed away two years ago and it was sort of like losing a mum and a dad in one fell swoop because obviously she was both to me for 15 16 17 years so yeah it was it was really difficult losing her but she was just such an amazing person to have in my life and I'm very grateful. How old were you when your

biological father transitioned? I don't think I ever knew any different because she knew from being about four or five years old and she dressed and everything during her relationship with my mum and it wasn't really until I was in my late teens that she actually had any operations but she always identified as female as far as I can remember. Did you talk about it? Absolutely everything she was very open she didn't shy away from any of the gory details that I think some people would do if I had questions she would ask me because she wanted me to be informed so I could inform people that were assuming things that were wrong as well. How accepting were other people in your life, your friends and family, of

your family? The only strained relationship that she had was with her father but I think that's a generational thing. I mean my granddad's in his 80s now so it definitely was like a this is my son and will always be my son and I can't accept you any other way but my granny was exceptionally accepting and understood everything went to all appointments with her took her for an operations and she had a great support network of friends as well what did you call emmy she was emmy I mean, she got Mother's Day cards, so I guess I did in a way call her Mum, but she was never Mum as a title.

She was always Emmy or Em, and she became Emmy after we had an incident in a supermarket when I was very, very young, and I ran up to her calling her Daddy, and we then came to an agreement that she would be Emmy because it was a bit weird calling a daddy in a skirt in the supermarket people stared so she wanted that to stop what happened what did Emmy say to you oh she wasn't angry she wasn't upset she just said it might look a bit strange if I'm dressed the way that I do and you're calling me dad, which is a male pronoun, obviously. And she just said, we can name me. And that's how I ended up naming her. We came to the name of Emma Clare together. She thought it was fair because she named me,

so I technically named her in her second iteration of naming and Emmy just derived of that. How was Emmy treated when she was out and about? I mean she did get looks there were people that stared because she was six foot two and wearing a dress and heels and you know made her taller and stand out but she pretty much ignored it I mean it did upset her to begin with obviously and then she had her breast done and she had her bottom surgery which made her just infinitely more confident and she said well people can stare you know they're tall women exist it's something that people need to get used to. Katrina what was life like growing up for you? So lovely. I had a very bohemian fun childhood. My mum was a feminist writer and my dad's a bright and we lived in this kind of topsy-turvy

upside down house where we told each other we loved each other about four or five times a day. So that's no bad thing. Yeah it was we had a great time and then I would say I suppose a little bit like Katie was saying my dad was always slightly in gender neutral clothing she's very eccentric as a person so she was always wearing velvet trousers and this amazing style so there wasn't really a big ta-da transitional moment which I think a lot of people expect. Do you remember your earliest memory of finding out? I would say it's more like little conversations like remember we were once filling in a form or something like that and my dad said there's only male and female tick box but if there's a tick box for both that's what I would

tick or there was a time when my dad was brushing my hair and she said, I wish I had long hair like yours. So it was little things like that that kind of all added up to the bigger picture when I was 16, 17, when it was more explained to me than it was when I was 19 that my dad officially transitioned. What led to that? The official transition? I actually

think that's the year it became legal that you could change your gender if I've got that correct. But my mum died. And then my dad had a dream where angels came and told her that the female in her was all good. It was kind of born out of this great grief that happened that this almost joyful occurrence happened as well. That must have been difficult for you losing your mother and then your biological father decides to make a life-changing decision. How did you feel about it at the time? It was just such a crazy time so because my mum was diagnosed with brain cancer and she was told she had three days to live and then she lived for six months and then it was about six months after that my dad made the decision to transition and then also around that time my dad had quite major heart complications and I think looking

back now that gave me a lot of perspective because I was just so grateful to have my dad in my life that anything else didn't didn't seem to matter to me. If something was going to make her happy, then that was going to make me happy. How did the rest of your circle, friends, family, react? So everyone was very... Again, because it was such a crazy time, my grandma found it difficult.

That's my mum's mum mum because she was highly religious. So she's probably the person that always called my dad by her old name. My dad would have to kind of tie her hair back, put on trousers to go and visit her, which was hugely upsetting for my dad. But then also it was hard for us because they were saying it's a generational thing and we kind of wanted to understand grandma, but also kind of shake her a little bit. But you didn't do that? No, we didn't do that.

Kath, I want to come to you next. Hi. When did you first find out about your father? Well, it was in 1987, so I was 23, and I was just sort of called back home, and he just started talking about stuff that I couldn't really get the thread of, and then eventually he started to say that he couldn't live the way he wanted to live anymore, that he was desperately unhappy, that if he didn't do something about it, then he might do something more serious to his life. And then he just sort of said that, I can't be a man any longer, I want to be a woman, and I've decided to undergo transgender reassignment.

What was your reaction at the time? Well it was a total shock and I laughed because you know that is a symptom of shock laughing and then you know when I looked at my dad I could see that he was deadly serious and that's when I had to take it seriously I really had to think about what it all meant to me and what it was going to mean to everybody else in the family. Did you have any inkling before then? Nothing at all nothing at all he had very sort of back in the 1980s very alpha male hobbies so sailing running mountaineering rock climbing DIY gardening a big beard and so it was an absolute total shock to me and to everybody what about your mother did she know well my mum knew 10 years before so 10 years before you knew 10 years before so she'd had to live with that on her own keeping it a secret until my dad was ready to come out that's a lot

for you to take on yes because it's it started to make me think about how real was our life as a family and so I had a lot of questioning to do and then at the end of the conversation when I left I was told that I wasn't to tell anybody I could tell my boyfriend who's now my husband but other than that I couldn't talk to anybody else about it. Was he understanding? ago and back then nobody talked about it. There was the occasional TV programme that we watched but I didn't really understand why we were watching it even though I found it very interesting and yes it was very private information. Anything like that was still very ridiculed. You know being homosexual wasn't really acceptable back then either. Katie how did it affect the parent-child dynamic and the roles that you were supposed to play? I feel it was a little bit flipped because I looked after her significantly

I mean she looked after me as well obviously she provided for me she gave me clothes and a roof over my head and food and everything. But she was also very vulnerable emotionally until she had the network of friends as a support group. All she really had was me and my granny and my granny didn't live with us. She, you know, was two towns over. So it was just me and her 99% of the time until she felt brave enough to go out and present to the world as female. She eventually did join groups in Bradford and I think Sheffield as well, met a load of other trans people. And at that point, it became more of a her looking after me again, because she had the friends, she had the Facebook groups, she had, you know, people she could ring and talk to when she was feeling something I can't sympathise with because I'm not transgendered. Obviously, I don't know what was going on in her head. So I could only do so much for her. Katrina, what was your relationship like with your parent? Did that change? So growing up, it was interesting, because my mum and dad had quite a modern relationship because mum was so

feminist and I always remember I had kind of I was very aware that my dad was different from other dads so my dad didn't want the kind of lynx box set for father's day and didn't golf and didn't have any of those kind of typical alpha male hobbies and then when she transitioned we kind of became I'd say more good friends in a way. So I borrow clothes off my dad, which I don't think she likes that much. And because we went through this big, big thing together, we lent on each other a lot throughout that. I've always been very aware that my relationship with my dad is different from that of my friends' relationships with their dads. But that's not to say that it's any worse or better. It's just different.

Kath, did your relationship with your parents change? Well, I feel it was quite strained prior to that because my parents were always wanting to know where I was, how long I was going out for, what time I was going to come back. And then when I went off to Polly, it was always ring us when you come back. And I turned up the once and it was a huge kerfuffle. This was before I knew. And my mum answered the door and sort of said, well, what are you doing here? didn't you call and I immediately felt like

turning around and just walking out and then I eventually sort of walked into the house and eventually my dad came down the stairs sort of pleased to see me but very surprised very shocked and it was all very very strained so then when I found out and then I was told that I couldn't tell anybody it seemed to put added stress and strain on our relationship and I think a lot of it was because I didn't know how to handle what I was thinking and feeling I'm the daughter I love this person and I respect this person and I want to support them. But also I'm really frightened about what's going to happen, what changes are going to progress. And I want to run away and I don't want to be supportive. So I was trying to battle with

all of this information. What did you go on to call your father well we decided because I've got a sister as well the four of us sat down and my mum didn't want my dad to be called mum because that was her role and that was her responsibility but we didn't feel that Joan which is her name now, just to call her Joan, because it didn't feel as if there was any sort of place in the family. And so it was then Auntie Joan. But then I felt I always had to try and explain who Auntie Joan was. So that was a little bit awkward as well. Your parents stayed together? Yes, and they still live together now as companions.

So yes, it's worked out right. How did they do that and keep their relationship on track? Because my mum, she did think about leaving, but in actual fact, my mum dug deep and she connected with her values in life and just really thought about the longevity of her relationship and and why she married this person and I remember her explaining it to me that when she married this person she loved them and she still loves them and when she took her marriage

vows that was for life and that was what she was going to do. Did you experience and this is to all of you any feelings of loss or grief losing this idea of the role they play in your life Katrina? It's funny because later down the line because at the time of it all happening I was just very very focused on the fact that my dad was still here and she was living and she was beside me. And that was so important to me. And also, I think once you love someone, you kind of see beyond their physical appearance.

So I didn't actually notice much of a change to how she looked for a very long time. And all people around me noticed, obviously. But I could see her eyes and I could hear her voice and that was the person that had always been with me and then almost later about I'd say about 10 years later I began to look at old photos of us as a family and I felt this great loss then and I felt very guilty about that actually but then I kind of read into it and read that it's all right to kind of feel that loss but it was much later down the line that I looked back and thought gosh my family was

massively changed in those three years. Katie? I pretty much agree with Katrina to be honest I didn't obviously feel much at the time because I was so young when everything happened. And because she basically identified as female my whole life, I didn't notice much until she started going on to hormones and having surgeries. But again, looking at photographs of when she was he, it's very different family dynamic. And I guess I did look at my friends families and think well why didn't I have that why didn't I have a conventional mum dad nuclear family. Kat? It's really interesting to hear what Katie and Katrina say when I was little I was very much a daddy's girl but I noticed a difference really quite quickly you You know, the next time I came home, my dad was dressed as Joan. And I just didn't know what I was going to expect when I walked through the door,

whether it was going to be my dad or whether it was going to be Joan. So I really missed the father figure in my family life. And for me, it's like a bereavement but with nobody dying that there was still an element of that person there but I couldn't see that person who was originally my dad but for me the bereavement process finally ended after about 29 years so it had taken me a long time to process that information and why 29 years was there a turning point what happened well I think a lot of it was to do with my acknowledgement of my feelings and accepting a situation that I couldn't actually change and I

think that was my problem I just couldn't accept it I didn't want to lose my dad and what I'd failed to realize that I was so caught up in the packaging that I'd forgotten what the contents were. How have your respective experiences defined who you are now? Kath? Sometimes I find it quite difficult to make a decision about things because I like to see both sides of the story. It has led me to understand me and my body and how to listen to me and my body and helping people with their stress and anxieties. So it's helped me tremendously. Katie? I think definitely it made me more accepting of other people than my peers who would have been brought up in a conventional mum-dad household.

So I think I'm less judging of just people you see. Katrina? Yeah, I definitely see acceptance of people's differences and how that makes them more wonderful. And then also I think actually more accepting of sometimes when people are closed off to these ideas there was experience I had with an ex-boyfriend who when he learned that my dad was transgender so I think that's disgusting we said I think it's disgusting actually before I mentioned my dad and then I mentioned my dad and he broke down and he was so upset and he hadn't actually realised.

And because he'd never met someone transgender before, he had no clue what to expect. So that experience really taught me that if someone's closed off to these things, they just kind of need a little bit more educating. And if the after education is still like that then you leave them alone. Did you stay with him? I did for a little yeah I did because he he'd said it before and then he changed his mind I mean he's not my current husband but that wasn't what ended things so I'd say that and then also just positivity because I'm an incredibly positive person and

my dad's incredibly positive she just chuckles whenever you mention that anyone's being transphobic. She doesn't really get that angry about it, whereas sometimes I do. And that really helps me to just see the world in a golden light. Katrina Inez, Casey Shurdley and Kath Lloyd speaking to me. Now Ramadan this year has fallen during the exam period for schools in the UK because its timing is based on the lunar calendar. That clash is set to continue until next year. So how do Muslim parents and students approach this

and what are schools being advised to do? I'm joined by Rukhshana Yacoub who is Muslim, an education consultant and used to be president of the Muslim Teachers Association, and also joined by Anna Cole, who's the parliamentary and inclusion specialist for the Association of School and College Leaders and has been working on guidelines for schools. Welcome to the programme, Rukhshana. When does Ramadan fall each year and why has it recently become an issue for school students? The holy month of Ramadan comes back 10 days every year.

And so at the moment, we're one week into the month. And next year, it will be 10 days earlier and 10 days earlier. So actually, for the last five or six years, it's fallen within the GCSE examination period in June. At the moment, key stage two children, 11-year-olds up and down the country, are doing their SATS exams this week. And so any children who may be fasting may be affected by that. But in the past, it has fallen mainly in June for GCSE pupils. At what age do children first fast? Is it compulsory or is it the child or parents or a joint decision?

I would say it's a joint decision. The general rule of thumb is that children are expected to fast around puberty. And of course, puberty is at a different age for girls and boys. And actually sometimes it's children who are young who see their brothers and sisters and family fasting and they want to fast. But I would say that the choice of fasting is a discussion with parents and children in the family and that's quite important.

Before we come to Anna, let's hear from two 18-year-old students I spoke to. They're currently doing their A-levels, have been fasting since the age of 12. Alia and Zaina, who go to school in Bolton. I probably started fasting when I was around 12 years old. It was a decision I made. Well, it's an obligation once you've reached puberty. But I also started fasting because I wanted to experience what it was like

as I've seen my parents do it and other people in my school do it. What was it like? At first it was very hard, obviously, because I was a lot younger then and I wasn't used to it. But as the years have gone on, I've gotten used to it and it's become a lot more easier. Did you discuss it with your parents, with teachers at the time? I guess when it wasn't compulsory for me to fast,

I discussed it with my parents because I wanted to try it. But once it became compulsory, I think it was just expected of me. I expected myself to do it and my parents obviously expected me to do it as well. Has there ever been an occasion where you haven't fasted during Ramadan? A period of time every Ramadan when a girl's on their period and you don't fast during that. Now I know Ramadan's timing is based on the lunar calendar and for the past few years it's meant that Ramadan has fallen during exam time. Did you have to fast during your exams? Yes, because obviously it's a religious obligation and exams aren't really a valid reason, some would say,

to miss your fasting. How difficult was that? To be honest, not very difficult. Obviously, with the heat and stuff, it was, when it came during peak summertime, it was a lot harder. But during exams, it's just the same as the other days really. Do you think it affected your concentration, your results, your focus? In my opinion no because over time fasting it actually improves your concentration and it

builds up your mental stamina so yeah I still did well in exams, even though I was fasting. Alia, can I ask you about your experience of fasting? I think I started fasting around a similar age. And before then, I actually used to look forward to every Ramadan, and I used to tell my dad, Dad, can I do a half fast? Can I do a half fast? I'd be like, okay. So I've had breakfast, and then I waited till like three o'clock, a bit later than lunchtime, and I'd say, Dad, I've done a half okay, so I've had breakfast and then I awaited till like 3 o'clock a bit later than lunchtime and I'd say, Dad, I've done a half fast, I've done a half fast

and I think from then growing up as a kid experiencing Ramadan you've got that sense of excitement that when's Ramadan going to come? And I think when you get older slowly that excitement does fade but I think it's still a month in the Islamic calendar where we look forward to

because it's a sense of it's a time of togetherness, a time of unity. I know that usually during the year, we all come home from work and school and we all eat at different times. And we don't really see each other much because I'm revising for A-levels and things as well. And I think the really amazing thing about Ramadan is we all sit down on a table and we eat at one time. And you've got that whole sense of like the whole Muslim community, we're all doing this. And I think that's something that is indescribable and it doesn't ever happen.

So I think that's one of the really amazing things about Ramadan. In terms of like Ramadan fasting and exams as well, I guess undoubtedly it is difficult and it is tough. I think the first time I was really anxious about it was GCSEs because I had 23 exams and they were all in Ramadan and I think I'd always put a lot of pressure on myself to do really well in GCSEs as well but I guess that if you're a really strong world and if you have that determination and you're pragmatic about taking the steps that you need to take for example your lifestyle choices around that month you can do well because I got 90,000 degrees and I think that that's just a living example that you can do well. Wow well done. I want to ask you both though because some people

are saying they are concerned about the welfare of students who are studying for their exams about focus about concentration um how do you feel about that i guess undoubtedly as teachers or students as parents you can be concerned about that because if you think about it you're not eating for 17 hours if you eat breakfast i'm sure i'm hungry by the next three hours so it's a perfectly reasonable reason why you would be concerned but i think to be honest faith is a personal preference and i think that so long as you feel that the student is coping and as long as you feel that the student's basically on top of their health and they don't look too weak and things that I think it should be a choice for the student as well a

choice that they should make with their parents and with their family as to when they think that they're ready to fast and as to when they think that you know what I am fasting for the month of Ramadan but you know today I feel really really weak and i might just take today off and then start fasting again for tomorrow and do you feel like you can do that and being open about doing that taking a break from fasting without facing peer pressure pressure from your family or feeling like you're you're a bad person for not doing it yeah Yeah, if your health is at risk, it's definitely something that you can do without feeling peer pressure or pressure from your family because obviously Islam is prescribed

that if you don't feel well, then you can take a day off and you can make your fast up after Ramadan. You can definitely do that without feeling peer pressure. Anna, you wrote guidelines when this first became an issue in 2016, which have since been updated. Why has there been so much concern about fasting at school and can it have a detrimental impact on performance?

Hello. So, yes, I think the issue is that everyone will be affected differently by fasting. And we've heard already some excellent stories from the girls that they felt um it was positive a positive experience for them but people will have to look at the way they've experienced it before we brought together a group of um imams and other islamic scholars including imams from manchester central mosque birmingham central mosque leicester central mosque and association of muslim schools and they've all endorsed this paper and we asked them those questions. One of the key things that came out was that Islam, like most major religions, has a pluralist tradition and that your decision, as the girls said themselves, is a decision, your personal decision about how fasting impacts on you

and making a decision for yourself after considering everything. Yes, it's a personal decision and it should be. But have you come across, I know you've spoken to many different Muslim people for yourself after considering everything? You say, yes, it's a personal decision and it should be. But have you come across, I know you've spoken to many different Muslim people when researching your guidelines, you know, that I'd imagine peer pressure, cultural pressure must come into it. It's difficult for me to say because I haven't had that. I've had some very positive feedback from schools saying that they've used the paper that we produced as a really good opportunity to have discussions with students

and with families and communities about how they're going to observe ramadan this year if they're sitting exams and we actually asked the question in our paper about whether or not sitting exams if you feel that it would impact on you negatively on your memory concentration focus whether you could exempt yourself whether it was a valid exemption. And the answer was that if it affects your ability to study, that the imams and Islamic scholars that we consulted thought that sitting important exams can exempt you from fasting if you fear that it's going to affect your performance. And also that within Islam, there is also the duty to pursue knowledge and education and to consider very seriously the impact of these exams on the rest of your life. and also that within Islam there is also the duty to pursue knowledge and education

and to consider very seriously the impact of these exams on the rest of your life. Rukhshana, what's your view on how schools and parents should approach this? I think this discussion paper is a really useful starting point for schools to start a discussion with parents and pupils before Ramadan actually begins so that issues can be discussed and highlighted and each school can find their individual way forward. And I think any discussion with schools and parents

on this or other issues has to be a positive thing. Rukhshana Yacoub, thank you very much for joining us. Anna Cole, thank you as well. Now still to come on the programme, all that goes on inside women's toilets. A new exhibition captures the candid moment shared between friends and strangers inside women's loos. Feel free to share your stories with us

at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. Now, councils in England will have a legal duty to provide secure homes for victims of domestic abuse. That's going to be announced later today by the Prime Minister. At the moment, the help that's available to people fleeing violence or abuse varies greatly depending on where you live. Here's what the Community Secretary, James Brokenshire, had to say about it earlier today on the Today programme when asked whether the government would cover the cost of these new responsibilities. We're determined that that funding will be provided. Our estimate of implementation is that this will cost around £90 million a year for local authorities,

but we want to consult on the detail of this to ensure that we have the right funding package in place, recognising yes, councils have seen a real terms increase this year in terms of their funding, their core fundings, but nonetheless, knowing that there will be additional funding that will be required, that will need to be settled through the spending review that will be taking place later this year, but equally knowing that, yes, we want to see that this is effective because it is right that we have those support services. Suzanne Jacob is from Safe Lives which is a national charity that supports victims of domestic abuse and joins me now. Good morning Suzanne. Morning.

Obviously you think this is great news but how are local councils going to pay for this? Well we do welcome this as a further step in the government's commitment around domestic abuse, which they have been pretty consistent on. You're right to query exactly where the money is going to come from, and I think we're all looking to that comprehensive spending review that James Brokenshire just mentioned to see not just that housing options and accommodation options for survivors of domestic abuse are provided for, but also that all parts of the response to domestic abuse are provided for but also that all parts of the response to domestic abuse are properly funded which includes responding to perpetrators and

making sure they're tackled. It's about making sure that people have community-based services, that the health system provides the right response and a whole range of other issues as well so all of that will need to come through that process of the spending review. Just how much money is needed to deal with this properly? Well, we're doing some work on exactly that at the moment. And we're having conversations with a number of parliamentarians about the process that they'll be progressing through the domestic abuse bill, which is coming forward to parliament later this year. And we'll be working with a number of those parliamentarians,

and of course, with the government as well, to try and make sure that that whole package of funding is available. And James Brokenshire talked about a figure of around £90 million. I know your charity is all about making sure victims have the widest range of housing options available to them, and that includes staying where they are. How does this work with that option? Well, this is an important option because some people just won't be able to stay in their own home safely and therefore they do need to leave.

And if they do need to leave, they must have safe accommodation available and it must meet a certain standard. It can't just be any old thing that's provided. But ideally, we do want women and their children to be able to stay safely in their own homes. They should have that right. We should be able to make it possible. We need to stop asking why doesn't she just leave and start asking why doesn't he stop and make sure that it's

substantively possible to do that so we need work with perpetrators to change their behavior we need early responses so that people don't get to the crisis point where they've really got to get out of area and to go to a secret location and we need to make sure that everything wraps around that person so they've got the most appropriate responses in all parts of their life and that will help us get to a progressive response which is people able to stay safely in their own home when they've done absolutely nothing wrong. How closely do you work with councils at the moment? We work really closely with local authorities and we recognise that everyone as part of the system is under pressure. There is a great deal of sure that that system meets the expectations

that they have about being safe and acts quickly and at the earliest stage we've possibly the earliest opportunity we have to intervene and to make sure that people are made safe and kept safe after that. Suzanne Jacob thank you very much for joining us this morning Suzanne is from Safe Lives now what goes on inside women's loos apart Apart from the obvious, the women's loos often end up being a place to laugh, to cry, escape, catch up with friends, talk to strangers, a place to give and to receive advice. Samantha Jagger has been documenting their value as places of camaraderie, retreat and even high drama, and joins me now. Samantha, when did you first start taking photographs in women's loos?

It started when I was a teenager because I love using disposable cameras and film cameras. So I've got a box that's brimming with thousands and thousands of prints. So I sat down last year and had a look through and it dawned on me how many are taken in women's loos. And then it got me thinking about gaggles of girls coming together, breaking up, making up, gearing up. And then from then I packed on my point-and-shoot camera and took it with me every day, really, and just started capturing my mates' escapades. Tell me about the title of the exhibition.

Loosen Up. So the exhibition is called Loosen Up, and it's a ridiculous play on words, really, but it's also because I see women's inhibitions loosening up in a toilet and um it's this that I wanted to explore further really it's interesting we were talking about this in the office earlier the fact that inside a woman a woman's loo you would ask somebody have a conversation with somebody in a way that you just wouldn't anywhere else you know you ask somebody for a tampon or to borrow something in a woman's do you wouldn't do that sitting next to somebody on a train absolutely i mean the most common form

of camaraderie i've seen in a loo is a form of sharing so whether it's two toilet roll um condoms smiles pep talk sympathy smiles stories of dreary dates um lipstick you know it all kind of goes on in that toilet and um i kind of see it as like a backstage break where you can take five minutes and it's a form of escapism really from the madness of a pub or a club. This email came in from Margot who's listening from California. Margot says when I was 19 years old following a six-month period of serious illness I was studying for my A-levels at a further education college in London. I was an immigrant and had been in the country for five years and after months in hospital I felt especially foreign and invisible. In the women's toilet at the college a student in my class with whom I'd

never spoken said with a warm smile on her face, oh I love your skirt, as I came out of the toilet storm. I felt like the sun came out. 45 years later, we are still best friends. Thank you again. That's wonderful. What have you noticed since you started taking pictures seriously on the subject of women's lose? There's a real show of support for each other. So I've definitely noticed a lot of compliments being shared around and if someone's

crying or upset you know you look out for each other in the toilet um what offers anosis um holding each other's hair back if one's had too many in a pub or a club we've all been there um i had a really remarkable story from a woman in scarborough who had started a rebellion against council toilets um because um the basically the money had risen to use the public toilets so she used a spade to put over and then she let all the all these women through and use the toilet we also have um there's a lot of just silly little things like um drying tops you know if you spill some sauce or something on it and then women using the hairdryer to do that and then loo or something on it and then women using the hair

dryer to do that and then loo rolls stuck on shoes and so these little bits and stories that I wanted to capture and that's the kind of fundamental aspect of the exhibition to document those stories. I like this idea the way you put it of going backstage taking a break taking five minutes especially in the context of there being so much pressure on women when it comes to the way we look absolutely um i would say i mean playing on the word taking a backstage break for five it's really interesting because i've heard from some women in fact three that have fallen asleep in loos or one woman in particular she's used uses the toilet at nightclub to go for like a half an hour sleep and then she has a power nap and then carries on with the night.

So it really is a place of rest in some ways. What made you choose the locations you did for the pictures? What types of loos did you go to? I didn't necessarily choose the toilets based on locations. It was more to document my friends nights out and just like different journeys that have gone on however there have been some like old 80s pubs that I've absolutely loved because of their tiles and the really harsh lighting so it's kind of fun to play around with a point-and-shoot camera because you can be fun and um you snap that moment and

that's it so it's it's been so so documenting um what goes on in, I don't know, I kind of choose based on stories, but then based on just going round and following my friends, really. And what's the aesthetic? Because if you're in a really grimy loo, public toilet, for example, that's not going to look as nice as another loo somewhere else. Well, say in a decade, as technology advances for hair dryers and tiles and all this different architecture that goes on in toilets won't exist anymore well well in some clubs anyway so it's this that I wanted

to document and kind of look at that slice of history and keep taking photos of that really um Samantha Jagger thank you very much indeed Where can we see your photographs of Luz? You can see it from 8 o'clock at the Brickworks in Manchester on the 17th of May Samantha Jagger talking to me about women's Luz Thanks for all of your messages today. Fiona got in touch to say

it's good to hear the conversations from people who've been brought up by a transgender parent, not a whiff of antagonism, just allowing them to speak, feeding the love from the offspring for their parents. Hashtag nothing to fear. Miranda says, My parent Jo came out as a trans woman when I was 10.

I'm 21 now and I love her more than anything. It's been so nice to hear other women talk about similar experiences candidly this morning. Makes a nice break from some of the hurtful headlines discussing trans rights that have been circulating recently. So thank you. You are welcome, Miranda. And on domestic abuse, Jessica says,

great to hear Suzanne saying that domestic abuse funding has to go further than just housing and include funding for health as well as working with perpetrators to change their behaviour. Lots of you getting in touch about toilets too. Louise says, I met a woman in the toilet last week. I walked in and she was bent over sobbing. I just held her, let her cry. We then talked and I listened. We embraced again and then she left smiling. Hashtag loosen up. That's the name of the exhibition about women's loos that we were talking about. Now, tomorrow, Jane is back.

And as part of a BBC season about mental health, we'll be hearing from a 40-year-old woman who lives with dissociative identity disorder, DID. We're calling her Melanie. She was first diagnosed when she was 22. Now, she explains her diagnosis as being like a set of Russian dolls. She, Melanie, is the main doll, and inside her are lots of other dolls with alternative personalities. She feels her DID helped her as a child when she suffered repeated sexual abuse,

but living with it as an adult is challenging. You can hear her story tomorrow. Every week on Desert Island Discs I have the delicious task of dispatching my guests to a mythical desert island with their choice of eight tracks, a book and a luxury. This week it's documentary filmmaker Louis Theroux.

His music is fabulous but if you listen you'll also find out how he tried to impress Michael Moore, why a series of Enid Blyton's books changed his life and how he de-stresses in the kitchen. There's even a bit of wrapping thrown in for good measure. Don't miss it. Just subscribe to Desert Island Discs on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.