Woman's Hour - Women's workwear - does it matter?

Episode Date: May 27, 2019

Tailored suits, uniforms or jeans and trainers – do you dress up or down for work? How much does what you wear matter in the workplace? Do you feel pressure to be polished? How much do you suppress your natural style in order to fit in? How has fashion in the workplace changed over the years? And can you really dress for success? Tina Daheley hears from Isabel Spearman who is a brand and image consultant, Uma Creswell, Vice President of City Women Network, Helen McCarthy, Lecturer in early modern history at Cambridge University, Magdalene Abraha Editorial Manager Jacaranda Books, Lindsey Bauer, a teacher at Colyton Grammar school in Devon and Viv Groskop, comedian, writer and author of ‘How to Own the Room: Women and the Art of Brilliant Speaking.’Presenter: Tina Daheley Producer: Dianne McGregor

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Tina Dehealy. This is the Woman's Hour podcast on Monday the 27th of May. Good morning. It's a bank holiday Monday. Today is probably one of the few times in the year when you don't have to concern yourself with work wear. Whether you are smart, smart-casual, casual, work can be hard enough without thinking about what to wear.

Tailored suits, uniforms or jeans and trainers, do you dress up or dress down for work? How much does what you wear matter in the workplace? Do you feel pressure to be polished? How much do you suppress yourself in order to fit in? Can you really dress for success? And how has fashion in the workplace evolved over the years? That's the subject of today's programme.

We're not live, but we do still want to hear from you. You can tweet us at BBC Women's Hour or contact us via the website. I'm joined this morning by Uma Cresswell, who is Vice President at City Women Network and now runs her own company. Isabel Spearman, a brand and image consultant and ambassador for the charity Smartworks. Isabel also writes on workwear and has a column in the Sunday Telegraph's Stellar magazine.

Dr Helen McCarthy is with us, a lecturer in modern British history at Cambridge. And I know, Helen, you're writing a book about the history of working motherhood, which is out next year. Magdalene Abraha, 25 years old, I think, fair to say the youngest person with us today in the studio, yes, who works for a publishing company.

Lindsay Bower, history teacher at Colton Grammar School in Devon. And last but not least, Viv Groskopp, writer and author of How to Own the Room, Women and the Art of Brilliant Speaking. Welcome. Now, you are all in work clothes. I'm going to ask you for three words that describe what you are wearing. Uma. Colourful, powerful and comfortable. Viv. Devorate, explosion of fabulousness. More than three words. Magdalene. Summery, comfortable and colourful. OK, Helen? Safe, unflashy, comfortable. Isabel?

Practical, comfortable and pull together. Oh, nice. Lindsay? Roaring 20s lame. Yes, and you look fabulous. And I would just go for comfortable green long. OK, so that's what we're wearing. Not sure if that quite works on the radio,

but still we'll post some pictures of what we look like. Helen, you have looked at women in the world of work since the late 1900s. Well, I think that was around the time that women were allowed to keep their own earnings in the UK. How much control back then did the average working class woman have over what she could wear? It really depended on what kind of job she was doing.

So if she was a domestic servant, and domestic service was the largest employer of women in this period, she really had very little control at all over what she was wearing. She probably just had to wear what her employer told her to wear. Women working in factories perhaps had a little bit more scope to express themselves. They might wear a patterned blouse under their apron and overall, they might wear colourful stockings, they might wear a piece of jewellery if they could get away with it and perhaps style their hair in a particular way.

And I think what's very interesting is that a lot of the work that women are doing is very low paid, it's pretty routine, it's pretty repetitive. But women find ways to express their personality and to assert themselves, even though their position in the labour force is a subordinate one. So a really interesting example of this is during the First World War, women working in munitions often had to adhere to very strict rules about what they could wear. But you still found them wearing a colourful bandana on their head, or lacing their boots with colourful ribbons or perhaps wearing fishnet stockings underneath their dungarees. So, you know, any opportunity they could to assert their personality and sort of push back against the homogenising tendencies

of capitalist industry, they would seize it. It's a bit like being at school and customising your school uniform. I don't know about anybody here, but I used to roll up my skirt, wear, I think our uniform was wearing a light blue shirt, so I'd try and get away your school uniform. I don't know about anybody here, but I used to roll up my skirt, wear, I think our uniform was wearing a light blue shirt, so I'd try and get away with wearing denim. What about professional women at that time, Helen? Women who are entering white-collar employment in the late 19th century, particularly if they're beginning to work in offices, which is a new type of work for women at this time,

the emphasis is very much on respectability and modesty. So these women are probably coming from a slightly higher social bracket than the domestic servants and the factory workers. They might be the daughters of shopkeepers or clerks or clergymen. And as I say, there are new presence in these masculine corporate workplaces. And so they have to tread very carefully. So we're talking about long skirts, blouses, hair piled up on top of their heads in the conventional way, perhaps minimal jewellery, very little make-up. And I think that this really reflects just how carefully women have had to tread when they knew that they were really innovating by being present in these corporate workplaces at all. Moving forward through the decades, how did their clothes change and why?

Generally speaking, women's fashions become more relaxed from the 1920s. So the corsets begin to go, you have dropped waists, hemlines are coming up. Also, working class women have more opportunity to buy ready-made clothes from shops. They can wear more cheap cosmetics, they can get their hair bobbed and shingled. And you can see this reflected in the kinds of slightly more sort of varied fashions that they might be wearing. And again, underneath their overalls or underneath their aprons. In terms of professional women, again, you can see some relaxation of styles. But a lot of women in the 1930s and 40s, if you look at photographs of female doctors or teachers or politicians, they're still generally playing it pretty safe. So they're wearing black and white,

they're wearing quite plain styles. Nancy Astor, who was the first woman to take up her seat in the House of Commons, always adhered to an unofficial uniform of wearing black or white and very plain hats because she didn't want the newspapers only to write about what she was wearing rather than what she was saying but of course they did that anyway. Of course they would. Lindsay you are a history teacher and you've looked into this area what women wear in the workplace. Yes so I'm thinking from more of a regal perspective so I find it really interesting to think about Elizabeth the Fair. So obviously her professional workwear, which she had to send clear messages across to her subjects.

And if we think of the rainbow portrait, that sort of beautiful picture of her holding a rainbow, and she's got this gorgeous gown on and it's got beautiful shades of orange going across it. And her gowns actually got embroidered eyes and ears on it and that was a symbol of omnipotence so she was forever present around all her subjects no matter where they were in the kingdom and also a slightly menacing message behind that as well because it kind of indicated that she had eyes and ears i.e her spies all over her kingdom because she was subject to lots of plots so she was more than capable of finding out about them. And that was all sent out, these messages,

through her clothes and what she was wearing. Helen, how did the rules change as more and more women entered the workplace? I'd like to say that women felt they had greater freedom in terms of what they wore at work. But I think right through the 20th century, we've got to remember that a lot of women had no control at all because they were in jobs where they had to wear some kind of uniform. So obviously,

domestic service declines from the mid 20th century. But you know, you have nurses who have to wear uniforms, waitresses, air hostesses. And I think that women in uniform carries a kind of high psychic charge in British social history, because uniform is associated with the military and therefore there was a lot of anxiety around putting women into uniform during the two world wars women who joined the auxiliary armed services because they didn't want women to become like men and they wanted to make sure that gender divisions and conventional femininity was preserved amidst all the social upheaval of the wars. So I think there's a really interesting question there about women's relationship with uniform. But I think also there

are unofficial rules or tacit rules that have governed what women feel they have to wear. What are they? Well, I was very struck by looking at some of the debates in the 1960s about professional women who wanted to get back into the workplace after bringing up their children. And there was a strong demand for getting women back into the classroom. There was a shortage of doctors, women in the so-called caring professions.

And one of the issues that's raised by professional women's organisations is just how much time and money these women will need to spend on getting their hair done every four to six weeks, getting their work wardrobe sorted out, getting their hair done every four to six weeks, getting their work wardrobe sorted out, having their nails done. And this is a real consideration that women are having to think about when calculating whether it's worth their while to get back into the workplace.

I'm so interested to hear you say that, Helen, because this is something that Hillary Clinton's Director of Communications talks about, Jennifer Palmieri. And during Hillary Clinton's director of communications talks about, Jennifer Palmieri. And during Hillary Clinton's campaign, they called that cost that you talk about, the cost of hair and makeup, always worrying about what you look like, they call it the pink tax. And they decided on the campaign that one of the reasons that it went wrong was because Hillary Clinton's attitude towards the pink tax was uneven. So sometimes it seemed as if she didn't really want to pay it, a bit like Mary Beard, you know, take me as I am. And other times she paid it heavily. So she was always really well made up. She's wearing the trademark trouser suits. And so their conclusion

was that as a woman in the public eye or in any kind of professional environment, you have to have a consistent attitude towards this pink tax, which I just find really creepy. I like to call it also wardrobe work. And what I mean by that is the invisible labour that goes into getting a woman to work on time, beautifully groomed, presentable, you know, all the dry cleaning that has to happen,

all the hair blow-drying that has to happen, the make-up that has to go on. And also, you know, for women who have perhaps small children that they're having to also get dressed and get off to school or they've got a long commute, all of this invisible labour that has to happen before 8.30 or 9am or before whenever it is that you appear on the scene beautifully dressed and ready to work.

Isabel? I thought we'd changed so much, but what Helen's saying is we actually haven't changed at all and we still all have those problems as women getting out the door in the morning and the effort and expense it takes to be well presented at work. Are we putting those rules on ourselves though or is this because society, our workplaces expect us to look a certain way and to come to work groomed? I think it's a mixture of both, if we're honest. Magdalene, you're 25. When did you enter the working world? Straight after university, so 21.

I think when I entered, I did initially feel the pressure. It only lasted two weeks, and then after that two weeks, I just couldn't keep up appearances anymore, and I just made a very conscious effort to always be comfortable. For me, I don't know if it's sort of generational, but I just don't think it's worth compromising. The nature of my job now, I'm editorial marketing manager. And so that's very intense reading, intense rigour.

And so if I'm uncomfortable in my clothes, my work suffers. So it just doesn't make much sense for me to not be in that sense. Uma, you worked in the city from the 90s. What were dress codes like then for women? Listening to what Helen said about how things have changed, but I think in the world of banking, particularly investment banking, where my career started, in the 90s, it was very formal, a very command and control culture. Trousers were frowned upon. I didn't personally experience anybody saying to me, don't wear trousers, but I heard that was being talked about. It was always

suits for men and women. There were no dress down days. It was just unheard of and very specific culture, corporate brand, corporate imaging. And it was mandated by the corporate marketing department. So very, very strict in the early stages of my career. And I love what you're saying about Madeline, about your career, but I wouldn't have fitted in if I didn't conform. And I think by fitted in, I think I wouldn't have been taken seriously if I hadn't gone with the throws of what was going on in those days. How did you dress at work back then? Always suited and booted. And I didn't really particularly enjoy it. But I think sitting

on trading room floors with wall-to-wall men, you needed to dress in a certain way to be taken seriously and to have credibility. You run your own company now, but how much would you say that what women wear in the city has changed since then? I think it has changed somewhat. We've got agile working, flexible working now. It's much more acceptable in the workplace. So there's a choice of what you're wearing when you're not in client facing roles. But wherever there's a customer facing opportunity or an industry, I think women are still having to conform and wear certain standards of clothing. And by that, I mean, you know, the type of industry that you're working in, there are

startups, and I think you can be quite casual if you're working in a startup environment, it seems to be acceptable. But in the banking sector, still, it is pretty formal. Women are still expected to wear and dress in a certain way. And I think that says a lot about the fact that we have come some way, but there's still a certain standard in a certain way. And I think that says a lot about the fact that we have come some way, but there's still a certain standard expected in certain roles. Isabel? I think the legal profession have probably the toughest and strictest rules. And I meet lots of lawyers who wear dark colours and are expected to

and absolutely no routine is wearing a fantastic green dress today that would not be approved of. But I met Baroness Shackleton last year in an evening event and she was wearing electric green snakeskin from top to bottom. And I went over and introduced myself and complimented her and she said, well, darling, I have to wear black all day. So in the evening, my colour comes out. And I think that's a really great illustration of conforming to the workplace, but also using your own style when you're out of the job and enjoying it, enjoying fashion. Do you remember the woman who was sent home for refusing to wear heels at work?

After that case was brought to the attention of the Women's Equalities Committee, they released a report revealing the experiences of workers affected by discriminatory codes. I remember one of my jobs, early jobs when I was a teenager in a, I'll just say a fancy department store, where there would be spot inspections, where somebody would come round and check that your nails were painted, your makeup was on, and your hair looked a certain way. Who actually decides these dress codes? I think I can talk to it from a corporate perspective. There is a sense of your corporate brand versus your personal brand.

So I think you can still bring your own personal brand to work. But if you're a major corporate or a major institution, you're trying to attract customers, you're trying to be in a certain sector or market, there's a lot of control from that sector around how we should dress and what we should be saying. Having said that, we're now talking about cognitive diversity, social diversity. And I think there's a sense now that if we're trying to win customers in different territories and different geographies, we should have people who look and feel and dress like the customers we're trying to attract. So there's a combination of what the, I guess, the CEO and the executive committee want versus actually what the customers are saying to you. People like doing business with people that look and sound like themselves.

Isabel, interestingly, a poll from a few years ago found that over half of UK workers don't have to wear formal wear in the office. So if that is the case, is there any need for a formal dress code at work? I think it depends on what you feel confident in. I've met lots of senior women who wear a great pink trouser suit with trainers. They're at the top of their professions they feel comfortable in it I think that echoes down

so the people that are working the women that are working under them are then inspired by that and I think it is changing I think you know dresses I'm a massive dress wearer and when I left fashion to go and work in a very male orientated environment corporate and turned up in bright print dresses I was stared at

and you go into a cocktail party no I just this is what I feel good in and I think it's turning people are being encouraged to wear what they feel confident in and that's the message that I get from a lot of people I meet. Lindsay? When I was doing a student doing my postgrad, I did a postgrad archaeology course and to supplement that I worked a couple of days a week for a high-end fashion designer and she used to dress princess dye and famous people of the time and we had to wear black and sort of all black top to toe and had to have our nails done and everything I found it really very imprisoning because you can't express yourself and I also felt that made me feel more serious and it aged me having to wear black all the time. Well I just think it's so interesting isn't it it exposes for me a lot of what we're discussing

the contradictions of feminism and the limits of feminism and some of the messages that we get now especially through social media that it's okay to be whoever you are just be yourself and feminism is very much the same you know choice feminism whatever you choose if you're a woman is a good choice because you chose it. And actually, these things don't quite add up because we clash with reality. And reality is people judge you. You know, we all judge people. And in work, you're judged if you have to meet a certain standard.

And then there's also the individualism of everything in that I was just thinking about I'd quite like to go and work for this maybe maybe she'll be listening and I'll send my CV for this old lady who will say look I've got you a black dress to wear you this is how you have to have your nails done you turn up at this time you leave at that time and then when you go home you can wear what you want you know because in my life you know I'm a freelance writer and a comedian I can just wear whatever hell that I want any time but full-on 100% freedom is also something of a prison so I think there's a real clash between feminism and the expression of femininity which is also a word that's come up that I speak to lots of senior women through doing these events for how to own the room which is all about the expression of power and persuasion

through communication and through your voice but what we're talking about is how you communicate How to Own the Room, which is all about the expression of power and persuasion through communication and through your voice. But what we're talking about is how you communicate owning a room with the sound turned off. And all of these women say, I find it really hard to express my femininity and be powerful. How do you feel about those contradictions, Magdalene? For me, the decision is very clear for me I must say I just I cannot work well if I'm uncomfortable I really don't like heels I don't like flat shoes and so I kind of think with the contradiction I think I do express my femininity through how I dress although it probably doesn't look feminine to some people. Is that because of your workplace and the culture

of your working environment? Well initially it wasn. So when I first entered the working world, it wasn't. It was very clear there was a tacit work dress code, at least. Not sort of said, but it was understood how women should dress. And what was that? Describe it for me. Smart, flat shoes, sometimes heels, skirts, dresses, none of which I particularly enjoy. In contrast, how do you dress? Tracksuits a lot of the time. Tracksuits a lot? Yeahuits yeah I do I do like a good idea that tracksuit jeans always trainers I'm

just more comfortable like that how did people respond to you when like you say after two weeks you decided to switch it up yeah where were you comfortable in yes definitely in meetings often with males um there were some comments I remember once somebody told me I look like I was in pajamas just before we began quite an important meeting so that was quite disarming um others are sort of like oh you look awfully comfortable but in a very sort of forceful way yeah exactly exactly um I choose to think of it as it makes me stand out more and so I'll be more memorable if I do perform well in said meeting or said work task. So I sort of see it as a power tool for me.

Has anyone ever pulled you up on it? No, nobody actually has. You have to think about that. Yeah, no, because I guess people do things in very tacit ways. So I found the comment about me looking very comfortable rude, but it wasn't direct, you know. And so it's just sort of, I just chose to perform very well

in that meeting. That was how I sort of decided to handle that. Just picking up on the femininity point that was made earlier and around being judged, there's a lot of unconscious bias out there. So I think it's sad that you should be able to wear what you want, but people do judge you on that first impression. And I think it's that constant balance of, do I want to attend this function or this event or meet this person? And what statement do I want to make? Versus actually, can I be my true self? And in an ideal world, we should be able to do both. But unfortunately, there are these biases out there.

And it's just how we navigate through that and how we challenge that. Helen? Yes, I think it's very interesting to reflect on the politics of fashion. And I mean, fashion is a feminist issue. And there were many feminist battles raging over how important is it for women to dress how they like. I'm just looking around the table and thinking, who's not wearing a bra? No offence, but I don't think any of us have burnt our bras in the end, have we? No, and you could argue that the time that we spend on thinking about our appearance

and spending our money on buying clothes is time and money that could be spent fighting the patriarchy. But on the other hand, if we're fighting the patriarchy, dress can also be our battle armour. And I think it's very interesting to think about how do women see dress as a way of asserting themselves, claiming power in the workplace. I just want to talk about what I wear when I teach as a secondary school teacher. So I will teach anywhere between 200 and 300 students, 11 to 18-year-olds, and you have to build professional relationships with all of them because you have to help them to achieve their full potential. And when you start as a newly qualified teacher or in a new school,

it's pretty intimidating if you're in a room full of 30, 35, 15, 16 year olds and you have to command their full attention for 60 minutes or possibly longer and one of the quickest ways to create those bonds and make contact is by what you wear and you can have students that are super bright you know perhaps not particularly interested in history and you've got to hook them in somehow. So how do you hook them in with what you wear? Their bright tropical dress or you know a sequined shrug or anything really. I wore a top recently that had cherubs all over it and it sparked off these conversations about the Renaissance and Sistine Chapel.

And it's just, yeah, it's lovely because it's so good to engage with the teenagers and they notice everything. They notice all these tiny details about what you wear, how you present yourself. It sounds like it's an additional tool for learning. Absolutely. In a way.

It's a really amazing way to click with another generation. Isabel? I mean, I think those impressions, and going back to what Uma said and Helen said, and your impressions with the students, I think we are judged in those first three seconds, but why not take advantage of it? I think we can be quite negative and go, poor us, you know, but I love clothes, and I think if you learn to love clothes

and what you feel good in, we can use it as an armour, and we can enjoy it. And I've been asked by to love clothes and what you feel good in, we can use it as an armour and we can enjoy it. And I've been asked by lots of senior men going, well, why do the women in my company need your services? Just there's so much choice out there. You know, we have so much choice. We have a great British high street. We have great online shopping.

And sometimes there's too much choice and it's very overwhelming. You know what I'm going to ask next then? Spill your secrets. How do I make, how do we make an impact within those first three seconds? I think colour is really important. If you're going to a job interview, you know, even if you're turning up to your everyday office and you're having to do a photograph for the company. I mean, I'm saying all different levels, whether you're a politician

or whether you're just a normal kind of workplace environment. I think if you wear colour, you stand out and it comes across as confidence I think you have to enjoy wearing colour and I think block colours are really an easy way of translating through messages I sent a client to Davos in hot pink two years ago and she looked amazing it was just that messaging on the platform was five men in grey suits and this very bright woman in hot pink and her message got across so much better because she stood out and she felt great in wearing it. What are the sorts of judgments that we make when we look at people and what they're wearing, our immediate impressions? I'm really bad at this because it's my job and often I want to

take someone aside and go, do you know what, it was just a little bit there, a little bit there. So I'm the one that everyone can protect. Do you want to go round the room? No, I think everyone looks amazing this morning. And I love what Madeleine says about it, because she obviously feels her very best in what she wears, and actually, fingers up to anyone else in that meeting who judged you, because I think you own it, you completely own it.

And I do think it's confidence. And and it's smart works talking about smart works I really want to bring into this conversation I'm ambassador for smart works for those of you who don't know about the charity it helps vulnerable women get back into the workplace and it's a very simple concept they come in from different referrals so charities employment agencies and they have a two-hour dressing session where volunteers redress them and then they go and have an hour's interview coaching. And these women come in, and they have to assign various spreadsheets, kind of, how do you feel about yourself? And this confidence level is incredibly low. They've been to 50 job interviews, they haven't got it, they've had a tough time in their life. They leave like Beyonce. I mean, they look amazing,

they feel empowered, and it's a combination of feeling great in what they're wearing and also just having that bit of interview coaching so they know what they're saying that job interview and 64% then go and get the job. If someone comes to you, Isabel, and says, right, address me, can you help me with my image, my clothing, my look? What's your approach? How do you go about helping them? I think it depends if it's as a one-off or if it's a whole kind of rebranding because it is about branding it's personal branding and often it's understanding what those women feel they're best in it's very

easy to get in a muddle our wardrobes are all quite small they're all squished together I think you get in a muddle in the mornings what you want to wear to work and often it's it's diluting that wardrobe into 10 great outfits you know we don't need more than that with a few accessories you can switch that around and I think it's uncomplicating the work wardrobe. Okay just picking up on the colour point I was fortunate enough to go and work with a colour consultant some 20 years ago something that I never even thought about it was presented to me as a gift. And I was actually quite stunned, Isabel, picking up on your point around the colour palette that was being put across the front, if you like,

and how my face was reflecting and changing with the blocks of colour. So I then completely retweaked my wardrobe. You will not find any green or olive or anything like that. I disagree. I think anyone can wear any colour. I don't feel confident in it, back to what you said. So there's something about that. So I found that quite interesting, actually. So the block colours are great, the pinks, the purples, the fuchsias.

But that was a really... Are you a summer? I think I'm, yeah. I had such an aversion to these. I think you just have to adapt your makeup slightly. I really do think anyone can wear any colour. And I think the second point I just wanted to raise about the judgment thing. So I have sat and hired hundreds and hundreds of people in my city career.

And I think I have to admit that there's been unconscious biases that I have looked at certain individuals within the first three seconds and thought, have you actually thought about what you're wearing because you're trying to get a job? Based on what? Based on the fact that they weren't, in terms of my perception of what they should wear for the organisation that I was recruiting for, suited and booted and smart enough. But actually beyond that, they could have been actually very, very good for the role. I'm not saying we ended interviews and made decisions on that, but the unconscious bias does kick in based on what people are wearing.

So if Magdalene had come to you for a job, what would have happened? It's not good. It looks fabulous. I love Magdalene. And you're shaking it up in the publishing industry that you cannot go and work in banking let's just face it you know she's wearing a gorgeous yellow bomber satin bomber jacket fabulous i would say high-end jeans am i right and we get we're talking like vetements in that vein i mean you're clearly there's a lot of thoughts gone into your look and it looks

fabulous and it says I know what I'm doing right and you translating that in your meetings which is amazing but like Uma says you're going to fail in that three second I would have actually gone to battle for you Madeline I think you look amazing yeah I mean I just want to push back on this a little bit because this is all very empowering. But we have to ask the question, why is it that women have this burden to constantly reinvent themselves and to spend so much time thinking this through

and thinking, calculating, planning, strategising, when men just put on a suit? Because that's the world we live in. And we have more choice. You know, a man wears a suit, really, in a corporate environment. A woman can wear 25 different outfits. And yet women still don't have equal pay. They are still underrepresented at the highest levels

of industry and professions and politics and public life. Yeah, give us more pay so we can buy more clothes. But some people listening to this will be shouting, I imagine, at the radio saying, you're wasting your time. Why are you dedicating a whole programme to talking about what women wear? I've never met a woman in any senior role or middle management or starting their careers who don't want to talk about what to wear to work.

Lindsay? In terms of feeling that we have to conform in the way we dress, I think sometimes as we get slightly older we feel that pressure, but I think we should reset our minds to think like a student because I went to university when I was 30 to do my degree I sort of did it back to front and I'd got into a habit of dressing in my late 20s in quite a frumpy way I think I was wearing a great elasticated skirt on a regular basis and it was very dull with kind of any old shirt that I could throw on for I was legal secretary at the time and it fitted the work mold but I was a little

bit bored and I went to university and it was just amazing it was a revelation in terms of what the female students and male students but what the female students were wearing they're sort of 18 19 they just put anything on they wear clashing clashing prints, bright colours, hats, lacy tights, hair in the top knot. And I wanted to fit in. I didn't want to stick out like a sore thumb. So I started taking things up too. And it was amazing. It was so liberating.

And now I'll wear any colour, any outfit. And it's all thanks to those amazing students. Can I just say, Linda, I wish you were my teacher. I wish I was at school. That would have been great. You are listening to Woman's Hour today. We are talking about what you wear at work and does it matter? Don't forget, if you've missed any of our live programmes,

you can catch up by downloading the BBC Sounds app. We are not live, but please do let us know what you think using at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter or on Instagram or you can email us through the website. Now, Uma, you've had Dress Down Friday when you were working in the corporate world in banking. How did that go down? Does that work? We did a pilot in my first sort of serious city banking role, and we had a pilot in a department for Dress Down Fridays.

And I'm not quite sure of the detail of how the measurement was done. But actually, there was some research done on the productivity. And it was deemed that the productivity went down because people were wearing jeans, they weren't taking the job seriously. That's a far cry from where we are now. Because if you think about the fintechs and startups and the technology sector, that's very much encouraged that it's your brainpower you're bringing. So I think it has evolved. I mean, dress down Fridays became more common in the sort of last 15 years and in the sort of pre-20 years.

And there was still a little bit of policing that needed to be done. You did need a policy to talk about things like no flip-flops from a sensible perspective, so you don't trip over the stairs. Low tops not allowed was sort of cited in there as well. So I think that the policies would then evolve to sort of reflect that we were having casual Fridays or dress down Fridays and the one other thing then I think evolved is things like the charitable side of the corporate world corporates became more and more involved with the whole CSR agenda and with that came jeans for

jeans we have Christmas jumper days now. And I think personally speaking, from what I saw in the last few roles that I held, I was really impressed with the cultural awareness. So for Diwali, we had bright colours for Diwali, Hanukkah was celebrated, Ramadan. That to me is just great progress. Isabel? I was laughing at the Dress Down Friday because I get asked so many, I just get my wardrobe sorted Monday to Thursday and then they throw dress down Friday at me.

What the hell do I wear for that? Because dress down Friday is not what you wear at the weekends. And that smart casual, I think smart casual is one of the hardest dress clothes to crack. It really is. It really is because, well, you tell us. What does that mean? I'm still working on it. Okay. Good tailor and good flavor.

I think you spend more time thinking about it, don't you, when you don't have to wear the Monday to Thursday. Helen, I hope you don't take offense by me saying this. The world of academia isn't exactly known for its power dressing. How do you dress at work? So I would actually describe my dress code as smart casual and probably more at the casual end of the spectrum. I'm extraordinarily grateful to work in a sector

where I don't have to get up every morning, put on the beautifully pressed trouser suit. And I have to say I was never more grateful than when I was coming back to work after maternity leave. And I had a baby that didn't sleep very well. I had to get this baby to nursery every morning. And my goodness, I was grateful that I didn't have to, you know, straighten the hair, put a full face of makeup on, put heels on and the trouser suit. So, yes, I mean, I think in academia, there's almost some you get some cred from looking a bit scruffy because academics are meant to be leading the life of the mind. And therefore, if you spend too much time grooming or you look a bit too slick it um that can actually look a bit suspicious uh so I spend very little time I'm thinking about what I'm going to wear and I'm pretty I'm pretty laid

back about what I'm what I'm going to wear if I'm lecturing or teaching but that attitude in itself can be oppressive I love fashion I take an interest in what I wear but there is this idea that you you can't it's frivolous and you can't possibly be intelligent if you care about the way you look. There is a term which I have heard used in academia, which is called the glamademic. And the glamademic is a glamorous academic and it's usually a female descriptor. Please don't tell me then they're not taken seriously. Well, there is this tension around being a glamademic, whether it's something which is very impressive and empowering and makes you stand out, or whether it's something which does question your intellectual credibility.

Also, the lecturer just takes all her clothes off. Yes, at my university. And does it all naked. I don't think she teaches. I don't think she teaches naked. But yes, and she's making a political statement there. Look, I've worked here, BBC, for 12 years. I've probably spent half of my career in journalism. Never naked.

Never presented the news naked. I wouldn't be sitting here now if I did that. But I've spent half my career dressing down, trying to wear neutral colours, not wearing bold colours, trying not to stand out. It's only now that I'm a bit older, a bit more established in my career, I have the confidence to wear what I want.

You know, I have dark skin. I have the confidence to wear what I want. You know, I have dark skin. I can probably take bold colours more. But I get judged on what I wear. People write into the BBC to complain about what I wear when I'm presenting the news. I think women feel much more empowered to wear what they feel comfortable in now. I think there's a real lack in the corporate kind of working environment

of style leaders. So you don't really have, I mean, we have Amal Clooney, but she's got a massive budget and a team of stylists. You don't often see stylish businesswomen and go, oh, I'd like to look like her because they're not in the public eye. I mean, Michelle Obama was a fantastic example of using fashion for good and getting her messaging across but there are very few to look up to so you do have to look within your corporations and I'm sure lots of junior people at the BBC look at you and go oh I can wear a bright green dress and I can do this and you are kind of it was the yellow one that got the most complaints I dared to wear a yellow dress on the

10 o'clock news and people wrote in to complain about it but we need women to be more confident of being feminine and wearing what they feel comfortable in so other people can emulate them but tina your example shows that it can be dangerous to be noticed wearing a yellow dress but they're saying i want to wear this i'm comfortable with who i am i'm comfortable standing out and that is always going to make other people say, oh, get you. Who does she think she is? Well, that's exactly what it was. And it's breaking the mould of what a newsreader should look like,

which is short hair, have a bob, wear a certain type of dress, don't stand out too much. And as I see it, trying to look and sound more like a man to be taken seriously, which brings me on to hair. Because again, it's too much about me, but when I first started working in news, I was told to cut my hair um I'm not allowed to have long hair no because you can't you're obviously the length of your hair is directly linked to your intellect um that's crazy I know I know I know so now my hair and when I first did my present my first 10 o'clock news I

did despite saying no I'm not going to change me this is who I am I did on the day go to the hairdressers and ask them to take a few inches off because there is this idea that you're not you can't be taken seriously if you are too glam um Magdalene I'll be interested to know as a black woman have you felt pressure to straighten your hair in the workplace? Not straighten but when I first entered the working world I would always tie it up so I never had my hair so my hair as you can all see it's quite big puffy and curly so when I first entered I would tie it up and So I never had my hair. So my hair, as you can all see, it's quite big, puffy and curly. So when I first entered, I would tie it up and put it into a bun. On weekends, it would be out. So it was, you know, it was just sort of trying, I guess, to suss out my environment, to understand how it all worked and not make myself too noticeable when I

first entered. And then that wore thin and I just couldn't keep up because I actually liked to have my hair out. I really like my hair. You've got amazing hair. Thank you. And then, yeah, and then I started wearing it out and loads of comments would come my way, sometimes positive, sometimes not positive. But once again, I just choose to take that and use it as power

and it makes me more noticeable. On the subject of tying your hair up, and this became a news story, someone wrote in, and I probably shouldn't have done, but I did post the complaint. And they said, tell your presenter to tie her hair up. She'd look far more professional. And this was also a compliment because he said, her cascading, flowing locks are distracting me from the news.

When you mentioned you got some negative comments about your hair, what were they? If I forgot my hairband at home was one. Who said that to you? A man, a horrible man. What did you reply? So many workmates said, have you left your hairband at home was one. Who said that to you? A man, a horrible man. What did you apply? So many workmates said, have you left your hairband at home? No, it was in a meeting.

It was in a meeting. I'd get on the phone to HR. Yeah, it was in a meeting. Others sort of, can I touch your hair? That's a common one. Which, if I'm in a meeting with you, no. No, just no, full stop. Forget the meeting.

Yeah. So, yeah, I wear my hair like this essentially every day and I no longer care. I no longer sort of take the time to be concerned about how someone else finds how my hair looks. Isabel, you were Samantha Cameron's special advisor. Part of that role did involve styling. How did she find dealing with the pressure of what she had to wear

and being in the public eye and being judged on every public appearance? That's quite a big question. Samantha was expected to be that womanly figure next to the Prime Minister. And it did matter what she wore, because, you know, we've got various publications, I won't mention names, that like stripping people apart. And they would literally do a cost analysis of every item that she wore so you did always consciously think where's it come from is it you know has ethically sourced how much does it cost um what's the messaging i mean the the advantage was if you were doing a charity visit and and she she's she chose various charities she wanted to champion they did want the publicity of her visiting their charities um i think the best bit of advice I've received

which I gave to a minor royal who was complaining about being photographed all the time is just wear the same outfit two or three times because then you won't get photographed. So we use that sometimes when she just wanted to be low key. Well this is where we hit this contradiction again because it's what you were saying earlier about that important three seconds and you can use that for good you can say right i'm going to use those three seconds i'm going to take the power but then the flip side is what you're saying about you know newspapers ripping everything apart and saying oh you're spending too much money or don't you look awful in this and i think women can often be accused especially in the public eye

of being hypocritical about this because they want the attention and the impact when it suits them. And then as soon as there's anything critical, they don't want it anymore. You have to suck up. You have to suck up the criticism if you want the impact and the attention. It's picking up on what Tina, you experienced actually, and how you felt with the yellow dress comment and where you are now. There is something about the whole confidence thing, which Magdalene you you raised as well so is there something about women that in the early stage of our careers we do want to perhaps fit in and observe and stand back and look and then as the confidence and credibility and experience comes and I include myself in that I don't really give a damn what people say about my dress anymore

but I used to and I'm really working hard with my 14 year old to give her that sense of individuality be yourself but until society moves with us and you know can you deal with the judgment or can you not deal with the judgments and I think that comes with age you I think you care less as you get older about what people say in general I think we have to remember that you know a great number of women are working in jobs where actually what they're wearing is really, it's not a site for personal expression or to assert their personality. Actually, they're working often, you know, part time, low paid, menial jobs, often involving a lot of physical labour. And what they're wearing, it's not, that's the least of their problems. Isabel, for people listening, what would you recommend for a good work wear wardrobe? I mean, I love a good workwear wardrobe?

I mean, I love a good blazer. I think you can wear it over a dress, good fabrics, things that don't crease. It's that look of professionalism if you are going. And I am referring more to the corporate environment. If you are going for an interview or meeting, you are judged on the smartness of your look. I don't think Madeleine would have to crease your jeans. And when you're dressed down more. Again, finding what you feel confident in. So if your uniform is a dress like me, have five great dresses that you know you can turn to. If you prefer

a suit, find five great suits. And find a friend that's really honest because often we're very bad at editing our wardrobes. So we've all got that kind of slightly bossy friend who's got that good eye and find that friend and every six months get them around and you will be that person i think there's something about having four or five things that you know depending on the occasion you can just don and you're done and to your point helen you don't have to spend hours thinking about it because there's enough going on with about the preparation apart from thinking about what you're going to wear it's finding those things that are easy that you know and it's simple things like things like, you know, when you sit down, does the skirt right? I mean, I tell people to sit in front of the mirror and check,

you know, when you sit down, does the skirt right up too much? Because you don't want to be thinking about it when you're doing your job. You just want to feel comfortable. You can't put it down to buy less and buy better. And can go in the washing machine. And it can go in the washing machine. Thank you to Isabel Spearman, Brandon Image Consultant, and Uma Cresswell,

vice president at City Women Network, who now runs her own company. Dr Helen McCarthy, lecturer in modern British history at Cambridge. Magdalene Abraha, 25 years old, who works for a publishing company. Lindsay Bower, history teacher at Colton Grammar School in Devon and Viv Groskopp, writer and author of How to Own the Room, Women and the Art of Brilliant Speaking. Join me tomorrow from 10. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From

CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.