Woman's Hour - Women's World Cup final, Surviving a WWII Japanese prison camp, Care leavers, 'Older-age orphans', Nasa astronaut Christina Koch

Episode Date: August 19, 2023

Former Lioness and England's top female goal scorer, Ellen White, on England reaching the Fifa Women's World Cup final. VJ day was on Tuesday, marking the anniversary of Japan's surrender, and the end of World War Two. Olga Henderson was 13 in 1945, starving in a camp in Singapore alongside other young internees. Now 91, Olga talks about her time in the camps recalled in her new – and first - book, In the Shadow of the Rising Sun. A survey of 10,000 university students found that only 14% of pupils who had been in the care system progressed to higher education by age 19, compared to 47% of all other pupils. Kim Emenike, who was in care as a child, and Katharine Sacks-Jones, Chief Executive of the charity Become, which supports young care leavers, discuss the challenges they face. Many baby boomers are experiencing the death of their parents much later than previous generations. The journalist Helen Bullough and clinical psychologist Dr Linda Blair discuss the impact of being parentless in older age. Imagine being the first woman to travel to the Moon. The Nasa astronaut Christina Koch has been chosen as one of the four crew members who will orbit the Moon in the spacecraft Orion, as part of Nasa’s Artemis II mission in November next year. TV presenter Sarah Greene, most well-known for her work on Blue Peter and Going Live is back on our screens with a brand-new BBC 1 quiz show, The Finish Line. She reflects on her career and tells us all about her new role. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. What a programme of interviews we have lined up from this week. The NASA astronaut Christina Cook, selected to be part of the team who'll circumnavigate the moon. As the population gets older, the age we experience the death of our parents gets older too. We discuss losing parents in later life. VJ Day was on Tuesday marking the anniversary of Japan's surrender and the end of World War II.

91-year-old Olga Henderson was an internee in Singapore at the time. She tells us what she remembers as a child growing up in the camps. And one of my favourite Blue Peter presenters, Sarah Green, on her Newquist show and finding her confidence following grief and bereavement. But first, few will know the pressure facing the Lionesses, more than England's top female goalscorer of all time, the one and only Ellen White.

Having appeared at three World Cup tournaments herself and of course lifting the trophy last summer at the Euros, during her international career from 2010 until her retirement last year, Ellen scored 52 goals in 113 international appearances. A huge feat. This year she's part of the BBC's punditry team and she joined me from Sydney and I started by asking her what the atmosphere was like there. Oh, she's part of the BBC's punditry team and she joined me from Sydney and I started by asking her what the atmosphere was like there. Oh, it's incredible. I think, you know, this final

was going to be so special, isn't it? And I was lucky enough to be at the Australia game and it was just unbelievable, that atmosphere. So yeah, excitement building and just can't wait, to be honest. Have you had a chance to speak to any of the players? I did bump into Millie and Lucy Bronze after the game, which was lovely, just to tell them how proud I was. And yeah, I'm just so proud of the group. And they're just such a special group that I really hope they can go on and win it. But it's going to be a tough one. But yeah, I think, you know, I think they're just so excited to be in this final but I think you know they're ready and raring to go how is it

possible to stay calm in a situation like this one because the magnitude of it all because everybody is talking about 1966 the last time England won the world cup. So what can they be doing to stay grounded? I think, you know, as a group, they are very grounded. And obviously we have got experiences now of obviously winning and being in the Euro final. Obviously it's very different, isn't it, to be in a World Cup final. They've all had very different experiences as well with their clubs. But I think, you know, a lot of this group or this group thrives under pressure.

I feel like they're just going to be really excited and embrace the moment, really. And I think, you know, they're more than ready to be on this stage and to be winning a World Cup. So I know that there is going to be nerves. There definitely will be. You're in a World Cup final. I'll be shocked if there wasn't. But I just feel like this group just loves playing football. And they've got obviously a great manager that will take all that pressure away from them and just instill a lot of calmness to them. Well, there you go. You mentioned Serena Wiegman, the England manager. Many are saying that she's the best football manager in the world right now.

Would you agree? Oh, 100 percent. What makes her so special? She's just such a special human being. She's a fantastic leader. Obviously, we know what she achieved with the Netherlands, obviously winning the Euros and getting to a World Cup final with them. And then to obviously come over to England.

She just instilled this calmness, this level of togetherness, this culture that, you know, the whole group wanted to buy into. Same with the philosophy and the style of play. And she wanted to get to know, or she wants to get to know everyone on an individual basis. And she's got a lot of empathy. So I just think that we've been waiting for a manager like this for so many years. And then obviously to tie that into having a really talented group, it's an incredible kind of recipe for success. I wish I was younger so I could be part of this team and get to experience her being my manager for a lot longer.

But, you know, she let all my dreams come true when we won the Euros. And, you know, she's really kind of at the helm for this group potentially going on to win this World Cup final. People are talking about Gareth Southgate reportedly being paid five million a year. Very different to Serena's 400,000 salary. What do you make of it? Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Now, yeah, they're saying about Serena,

they're looking at her for the men's job. You know, we've spoken so much about equality and equal opportunities and obviously what she's achieved with this England team. She deserves to get more and she deserves to get, if not the same. I don't know why it's any different, but I'm sure those conversations will be had once this World Cup is over. But she's an incredible kind of manager, the best in the world right now, bar none. Absolutely. And then talking of the players as well,

it would sort of be unthinkable for the men to go into a final not knowing what their bonuses would be. And yet the women will be playing Spain on Sunday with no idea if they win. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And these conversations have had to be put on hold because there wasn't any kind of resolution before the World Cup, which is super frustrating for this group because they want to use their voice in a positive way. We've had these conversations for so many years now

about this bonus structure or facilities or a number of different issues. And I'm really proud of this group for speaking out. And it's not just for for this group collectively it's for the whole kind of legacy of women's football as well these conversations and this money so I'm really proud of the group and I hope these conversations continue after the World Cup because these girls deserve so much and what they they're achieving you know they deserve to to get what they deserve to be honest and they are achieving so much and what they're achieving. You know, they deserve to get what they deserve, to be honest. And they are achieving so much

and we are all thoroughly enjoying watching them achieve it. We've seen some incredible goals in the tournament. Ella Toon, Lauren Hemp, Alicia Russo, they all scored in the semi-final. Can you describe for us the feeling of what it's like when the ball comes towards you, you hit it and it gets into the back of the net? What does that feeling feel like i think it's just elation to be honest uh euphoria um it's like an outer body experience really it's so it's so special to to be able to to score a goal for

your country and and in particular you know in a World Cup semi-final it's just absolutely incredible and for these girls to be doing at the highest level under so much pressure yeah it's it's an incredible feeling and for me personally to have been in the stadium and seen that and watched it it was just absolutely so exciting and super proud of them. All right let's look ahead to the match on Sunday what kind of threat does Spain pose? Yeah, it's going to be a really interesting game. It's going to be almost like a chess match. You know, they're very much a possession-based team, Spain.

They move the ball so well. You know, they're the highest scoring team in this tournament so far. So they're obviously going to be a big threat going forward, especially, you know, in and around the box. So, you know, for us, we need to be a big threat going forward especially you know in and around the box so you know for us we need to be defensively sound and you know for many years England weren't a possession-based team but now since Serena's come in we want to possess the ball as well so it'd be really interesting how that works of of who's going to possess the ball how quickly can they get the ball back and and then also who's going to be clinical in front of goal.

But they've got some phenomenal players, Spain and so have England. So it's going to be a really, really interesting, tight encounter. And obviously both teams have never reached a World Cup final as well. So with that becomes a lot of nerves and pressure at the same time. But it's who can withstand that pressure and who can kind of play their own style of football and stamp their authority in the game. Now, that you are in sydney with your baby with mave yeah she's here how is she finding the first world cup and now how are you finding it being out there with her yeah she's with me i'm still breastfeeding so you know she's with me uh my husband's here as

well um but yeah no she's been amazing and yeah she was at the semi-final my husband had her in the carrier she was pretty much asleep the whole game which was amazing with their soundproof headphones on because it was very loud but it was really special for us as a family to be there and experience the team getting to to the world cup final you know we'd spoken before I retired to be like how special would it be if we were to to be able to go to the World Cup potentially with with a with our child and experience it together and it would come full circle we were literally there experiencing it together um so it's just it's just an incredible moment and memories that we could tell her when she's a little bit older that

you were there you were witnessed and potentially to say you were there when England won the World Cup. Oh, wouldn't that be magic? Absolutely brilliant. What a lovely story for her to have for the rest of her life as well. And very quickly, score predictions. Do you know what? I'm awful at score predictions.

I think you need Farrah Williams for this. I'm going to go 2-1 England. We'll take that. And you can watch England versus Spain at 11am on Sunday on BBC One or the iPlayer or listen to BBC Radio 5 Live. And you got in touch with your thoughts about the World Cup. Thomas wrote in to say, I rarely watch men's football and usually find it boring, but I couldn't wait to watch every World Cup women's team. They make it so exciting and

their skilful talent, prowess, strength, stamina and personalities are thrilling. They should be paid the same as men, if not extra, because they're worth it. Congratulations and thank you to all the women's teams. And you can contact us about anything you hear on the programme on social media at BBC Women's Hour or via our website. Now, the death of parents at a young age can be a terrible loss with long-lasting effects, but the death of parents when you're older can also be devastating and affects an increasing number of people as the population ages. That's the conclusion of journalist and producer Helen Bullough. Helen's father died recently. He was in his 90s. Her mother died

nine years previously, leaving Helen now at the age of 59, as she calls herself an old age orphan. To discuss becoming parentless in older age, Nuala spoke to psychologist and author Dr Linda Blair and to Helen, and she started by asking why she decided to write about the subject. I wondered why it was that having lost my mum, you say nine years ago and then my dad the combined loss seemed above and beyond the loss of those two individuals it felt like that there was something wider going on and my sense is that you know grief at any age you know losing your parents at any age as you say it's a terrible thing but when you are older you know at the age of 59 my parents had been with me for a long time all the way through university and relationships and having children and changing

jobs they'd been with me the whole time and and I think one of my interviews said this really eloquently you know the longer you are any kind of child the more security that you have you're never alone and therefore it casts a longer shadow when you lose that security. And I also think that the life stage that many of us baby boomers are at when this loss is happening now, we're at a point where other things in our life are changing at the same time. We're changing jobs, we're moving house, the kids are establishing their own lives elsewhere. So there's a lot of transition going on simultaneously. And then the rug being pulled out from under your feet. Linda, what impact do you think death of a parent in an older age, when we are an older age, has on our sense of identity? I think it's a lot more profound. I was quite surprised when Helen

and I began talking about this, we realized just how very important and new this is, because of course, we haven't been living so long until very recently. And I think I should add here, we haven't been living so long and frail, because that brings in the caring aspect, which is another important part because, as Helen alluded, we have many identities in life. I love the analogy that we're like a lotus, you know, and different petals keep opening up. And we've probably been a worker. We've been a friend. We've been a parent. We still are. But these things have lessened their hold by the time we're at sort of my age. I'm in my 70s. You know, you're probably retired. You're probably without your children at home now. Many of your friends may have scattered. So those identities, and we need more than one, are weaker or lessened. And the caring side of

things may have come into the fore, caring for that parent, not with everyone, but with many. When that goes, wow, you know, you're not a child. You're not a carer. You're not central as a parent. You're not working. What are you? You know, we've got so many messages. Here's a few.

I'm 58. 16 years ago, my parents moved in with us. Yes, I have a very understanding husband. I cared for both my parents until they passed. My dad after three years and my mum after 14 years. I look back and I wonder how I managed it all. Love can be very motivating. I'm a bit lost now. Boys at uni, mum not long gone.

I wonder what now for me. And that's Maz in Harrow getting in touch. Here's another. I was 66 when I lost my mum last year. I remember trotting out the line, I was lucky to have had her for so long, which is true. But it doesn't actually mean that you grieve any less. I found that other people assume that the fact she lived a long life, she was 93, means you can cope more easily with that loss.

It does help on an intellectual level, but doesn't stop those sharp moments of grief. Here's another from Nikki. My mum passed away in July at the age of 95. I'm 62. My father is still with us. It was a life well lived, but I find it very difficult if other people say something like, it's OK for me to say she was 95 and did very well, but it's not OK for someone else to say it. It feels like they're robbing me of my grief.

I know I was lucky. I have angry moments, but mostly sad for my dad, who now has so much time in his hands. He doesn't know how to relax and occupy himself. What about those, Helen? Yeah, I think that really strikes a chord. And a couple of the people I spoke to, I think we agreed that although it comes from the very best of intentions, those phrases like, you know, had a good innings or lived to a ripe old age the intention is not to diminish you know what you're feeling but the impact of it can be quite different and you know we you know we often say that however much we try we're still not awfully good at some of these conversations and if you are talking to someone who is suffering from a bereavement really I think you know what we want

to hear is how are you you know should I just sit with you for a bit, rather than people trying to sympathise? Because you can't really guess what anybody's grief is like. It's all individual, isn't it? Yes. What about that, Linda? What is helpful to say to somebody, do you think? What's most useful is to listen. We have a phrase in therapy about the power of silence and just being with someone and showing that you care about them is just so good for them at that time because they don't often know what all they're feeling anyone who's grieved knows you have to sort out so many things and you, you know, that's probably the longest relationship of your whole life. So it's really important to be there and show acceptance

because one of the things people will talk about is feeling guilty that they wished sometimes that they didn't have to keep doing the caring. And that's a normal kind of thought. I'm hearing so much devastation actually really coming in from the listeners. Let me read a few more. I lost my parents seven months apart, aged 85 and 90, fit and healthy. I describe it as they danced at the edge of a cliff then fell off. Good for them, of course.

But at the age of 58, I've been totally devastated, lost my lifelong best friends, rocks and cheerleaders. I was unprepared and gave struggling, and I'm struggling to find a new purpose. I found the saying, they had good innings, dismissive of my pain. Another woman's hour. My mum died last September, ten months after my dad.

I'm 49 and have felt somewhat rudderless. Every time something significant happens in my life, I want to tell them I miss them so much. That's Sophie from Abington. I'm sorry for your loss. We talk about the relationship you have with your parents have been one of the longest that you have in your life. But some also have siblings. And let's talk about that for a bit. The impact on the sibling relationship when parents die in very old age. Helen, you have two siblings. I do, yeah, I've got two sisters.

And I think there's a couple of aspects to this, actually. So the most obvious physical aspect is that often the death of both parents means also the loss of the family home. So that whole sense of the base where you have all come together, siblings, parents, there's been a physical facility, you know, where that family has gathered. But of course, that's a symbol for what the parents are really doing. You know, the parents are gluing the family together. And, you know, in their later years, you know, my sisters, who I love very much, and I often triangulated our conversations through our

parents, or talked about them. You know, what were they up to? Who was visiting when? Who'd had which version of the latest medical update? So I think when you take that parental framework away, you know, siblings who are, you know, united in a similar feeling of sadness also have to re-engineer their bonds you know the whole family structure has to resettle somebody has to take responsibility for keeping in touch with other relations somebody has to take responsibility for gluing it all together and as siblings it's a conversation which

I think it takes a while to get to. But do you think that happens I mean I could definitely see it all just falling away. I think it does happen. One of our other interviewees, Dylan, remarked on something which I really recognised was that he'd just come back from having tea with some of his dad's old friends. Nobody had asked him to do that. Nobody had sent him a letter saying you are now the head of your family. But he thought that his dad would have appreciated that. And so he'd done it. So I think it takes a while to feel your way through all of these things.

But if you value, you know, if you've been lucky enough to come from a stable, loving family that your parents have built for you, then you want to nurture it. And you want to do a little bit of work at re-establishing, you know, some of those new ways of working basically together. Helen Bullough and Linda Blair talking to Nuala. Now imagine being the first woman to travel to the moon. The NASA astronaut Christina Cook is edging closer to that entry in the history books. She's been chosen as one of four crew members who will orbit the moon in the spacecraft Orion as part of NASA's Artemis II mission in November next year.

All going well, the Artemis program will continue in 2025 as NASA and its partners attempt to land the first woman and first person of colour on the surface of the moon. Well, I spoke to Christina yesterday and asked her about Artemis II and what this part of the space. Well, I spoke to Christina yesterday and asked her about Artemis 2 and what this part of the space program entailed. This will be the first crewed mission of what's called the Space Launch System, which is the rocket, and the Orion Space Capsule, which is the deep space exploration capsule that NASA has been developing for some time. And the idea is that we are going to test

out all of the systems on both of those vehicles that are for human exploration. So we've proven that the rocket can launch, that the vehicle, the Orion spacecraft can make it to the moon and back. We did that back last year, launching in November and turning both back to Earth safely. So now we're going to put people on board. Specifically, our mission is about nine days, nine to 10 days long. We're going to spend about a full day doing some high Earth orbits, some extremely high elliptical orbits, which we're also very excited about. And then we're going to hear those words, go for translunar injection. We're going to spend three days going to the moon, do a free return trajectory, kind of loop around the moon and head

back to Earth, splashing down in the Pacific. So it's a very, very exciting mission. There's some big milestones there and some things that haven't been done in a long time. Yes, incredible. So you're going to go around the Earth and then go around the moon. So you will get to see the dark side of the moon. That's right. We'll see the far side of the moon. I hope it's lit, though, to be honest with you, because I would love to actually be able to look down on it. Yeah, incredible. So what are you doing at the moment? How are you preparing? Well, our training did start about a month ago. It's been awesome. We are all, you know, nerdy scientists and engineer types and pilots. So we love diving into the technical details. And we've had a chance to do that over the last month or six weeks.

We've been meeting the teams that we've been working with. We've been learning all about the vehicle, the Orion spacecraft, the operations. You know, we're really designing this mission with the teams together. And that's been fantastic. And how did you find out you got the job? The three of us that were told by NASA, you know, they put a meeting on our calendars, and it was under a different pretense, because this was to be a surprise. And so many of us, for various reasons, didn't make it to that meeting quite on time. But we walked in, saw our

boss and our boss's boss sitting there and realized that we may have been late to the wrong meeting. There's a little comedy there. But we were asked, how would you like to fly Artemis 2? And I was completely awestruck. I had to take a second to really just sit with that. But a few minutes later, I looked at my leaders and I said I would be honored. And that's how we found out. Absolutely incredible. So when you said you had to sit a minute, what went through your mind?

What were you sitting and contemplating in that minute? I was thinking about the responsibility that comes with that. I was thinking about what an honor it was. I was thinking about how I could rise to that challenge and make the people proud that deserved the best astronaut that they could have in my role. And I think I was also just spending my last couple of minutes before the big life change that happens when you accept that kind of a mission assignment. I mean, you're an astronaut. This is the question that we all get asked when we're kids. And quite a lot of us, even if we don't even know what it is, it's the thought of just being able to go to space, go to the moon, and this is your life.

What would little Christina say about this? Well, it's interesting. Little Christina did want to be an astronaut from the time, you know, I was little. And I think I just never grew out of it like a lot of people. Around the time I might have been growing out of it, I discovered I loved science and engineering. And I discovered I loved exploration as well. So I really just held on to that dream. And, you know, I love the David Thoreau quote to live the life that you've imagined.

And when I think about what I'm doing right now, it really, truly is the life that I would see in my mind's eye for myself when I was little. And that's just a wonderful place to be able to be at. And I feel fortunate every single day for that. Yeah, what a remarkable achievement. What did it take to get to where you are? How does one become an astronaut? Well, actually, there's a very kind of specific formula that you can be told about that. I'm taking notes. I'm taking notes. Yes, go ahead, everybody get your pencils out. I used to go to space camp. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. It's a famous camp where you learn all about being an astronaut and space things that we have here in the States.

And I went a few times, and, of course, everyone else there was just like me. They wanted to be an astronaut, and there was actually a class you could take about how to become an astronaut, and they literally wrote these things on the board. And I thought in that moment, wow, number one, I should not do these things because I can't compete with everyone around me. And number two, I would never want to achieve this dream that I held in such high regard if I was just living my life according to a checklist.

So I decided then and there that if I were ever to become an astronaut, it would be because I, I found the things that fulfilled me and followed my own passions. And so I took a very unconventional route. I ended up with a job with NASA when I graduated as an engineer, and I left that perfectly good job to go winter over at the South Pole. And that was a decision many people questioned. I did a lot more about rock climbing and Antarctica than we did about electrical engineering in my astronaut interview. And I think that goes to show that a lot of the skills that they're looking for really are more around teamwork and being comfortable in different environments and taking care of the people around

you. Wow, that says a lot about you sticking to your guns and your own instincts. Maybe that, or maybe that I'm stubborn. Yes. And so what will your role be? I am hoping to be kind of the point person for a lot of the things that we will do in the cruise phase of the mission. So for example, one of the objectives is we're going to sort of transform the inside of the module of the capsule into what we call a radiation shelter so that in the future, they'll know that that would work if there was an instance where they would have to go into that interior mode. So we hope to just sort of divvy up all the different roles that might happen over the course of the mission and in the course of the planning for

the mission. One of the roles I have already is working as kind of the lead for our crew for all the crew provisioning in the vehicle so that's been really fun um and then supporting our our commanders and you know being we talk about leadership and followership at nasa and so that's a great skill set that i hope to work on and continue to develop now after the mission you you land back in the sea and you there's angels and saints that come and find you tell us more about this yeah we do we back in the sea and there's angels and saints that come and find you. Tell us more about this. Yeah, we do. We land in the Pacific Ocean.

It's going to be the longest trip I've ever taken to San Diego. But NASA partners with a lot of our defense services that have some of these really impressive teams and equipment. For example, a giant ship with what's called a well deck so that they can actually bring the capsule into the back of the ship. There's a helicopter team. So they're actually, the current plan is to pick us up individually by helicopter after we've sort of been visited by the folks and they've opened the hatch and gotten us out. So real remarkable thing, just how many people are working on this mission and what it truly takes to go to the moon and back and to return to a home planet. Oh, my goodness.

Just you saying that, that that's what you're about to do, is spine-tingling. And you already hold the record for the longest time spent in space for a woman, 328 days. And in 2019, you and Jessica Mayer were the first women to do an all-female spacewalk outside the International Space Station. That's such impressive stuff. Can you share with us any awe moments that you have had whilst you've been out there,

you know, where you might have seen something or even thought of something when you get that perspective on, I'm sure you've been asked this before, perspective on our existence very few people have had? Well, there's so many different aspects to the perspective that you gain on a mission like that. I think to answer this question, I just go to that spacewalk with Jessica and the first one we did, but maybe not for the reasons people would think. It was awesome to do a spacewalk with another woman and to realize that that was the first time collectively we have done that, which is amazing. And to be part of it was even

more amazing. But what people don't know was that spacewalk was actually not planned. Jessica and I did it because something unexpectedly broke. And we had to design a spacewalk with the teams on the ground in the course of a week. Normally spacewalks take years to develop. They are choreographed down to the minutiae by being practiced in our giant facility on the ground. And we actually figured everything out in a week, executed it. It involved things that weren't a regular part of other spacewalks, like riding the robotic arm and fixing things that had never been repaired before. So that was actually the most awesome part. When we

opened that hatch and two women were outside the space station on a spacewalk, and we knew that we had gotten there because we worked together to figure something out unexpectedly, that moment was truly awesome. What an absolutely fascinating interview that was. Christina Cook there. And Catherine tweeted us to say, I was nine at the time of the moon landing. I remember saying I wanted to be an astronaut and dad telling me to work hard at school and become one. He didn't say, you're a girl, you can't do this. Decided against it and became a teacher. Still love anything to do with space. Now, Listener Week begins on Monday, and we would love to hear from you if you're currently on an adventure.

Are you on a hike, a trek or even around the world sailing expedition? Let us know via the Woman's Hour website and who knows, we might even follow your journey. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. Just subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via the Woman's Hour website. Tuesday was VJ Day, Victory Over Japan Day, marking the surrender of Japan in 1945 and therefore the end of World War II. Olga Morris, now Olga Henderson, was 13 at the time and living or rather surviving in one of the most notorious Japanese camps for civilian internees.

Along with her older sister Mary and younger brothers Peter and George, she was imprisoned in 1942 following a sudden knock at the door when the children and their parents were given half an hour to gather essentials. For the next three years at Changi Jail and then the Syme Road Camp, they suffered disease, malnutrition and brutal treatment, fearing they would never be free. Olga is 91 and has written her first book, In the Shadow of the Rising Sun. Nuala asked her what she remembered of the day in the camp when she found out the war had ended. We were in front of the hut. We just had about eight feet of sort of sandy mud in front of the hut. And we were just on the top messing about.

And then all of a sudden we heard the plane and it came over and all this sort of confetti sort of stuff came down. And that was the leaflet to say that the war had come to an end. How incredible. And I was just handed before, as you came into the studio, Olga, the pamphlet of which you have a copy. This is incredible. So I have it in my hand here

which would have been one of the pieces of confetti, so to speak. It says, to all Allied prisoners of war, the Japanese forces have surrendered unconditionally and the war is over. I mean, that's just an incredible thing to think you would pick up off the ground and read. Yes, yes.

Because when the others saw it, they were all rushing as well. So we were all grabbing what we could, you know. It also says we'll get supplies to you as soon as humanly possible. We'll make arrangements to get you out. But owing to the distances involved, it may be some time before we can achieve this.

One, stay in your camp until you get further orders. Start preparing nominal rolls of personnel, giving fullest particulars. List your most urgent necessities. And if you've been starved or underfed for long periods, do not eat large quantities of solid food, fruit or vegetables at first. It is dangerous for you to do so because, of course, you wouldn't have eaten eaten tell me about your time in that camp and what you went through because when i was reading some of the details it was brutal yes yes it was completely different from changi of course because we were just out in the wild you might say you know and we ate in the vegetable line, was just, you know, grown in the camp.

But the thing was that what we grew there, the Japanese, it was their vegetables, not ours. So they had the first pickings. So there's normally not much left. But the men did all the cooking. And then the food was brought in to the women's camp through the barbed wire gate and um and they used to come in tubs and um and the last christmas we were told we were going to have bread and we were going to have pork and of course we were all

really excited about this well when we got our bread it was the size of two bits of your fingers. And it wasn't bread. It was just pound up sweet corn. And that was our bread. And we found seven pieces of meat in a tub. So that was our Christmas dinner. Right. And so there was always this lack of food.

Yes. And your day to day life in Syme Road, how would you describe it? Well, my mother had to cook all the food for the Japanese army and she had a great big wok, nearly as big as this table, a bit smaller. And the Japanese mum used to have to get up at half past four in the morning and fill it up with water and get it boiling by half past eight in the morning. The Japanese used to come down with a bag of rice and put it into the boiling water and they would come and collect it at twelve o'clock. Well, when mum fell once and she hurt her shoulder, she couldn't do it. So I used to have to get up with her at about four and help her. And sometimes my mother managed to dry a bit at the bottom and pretended she couldn't get it off, sticky at the bottom. And she used to collect all that and sometimes manage,

and I used to as well, very secretly, give it to some mothers with little children. And they used to have it as a biscuit. Because you just take any food that was going. How was your physical state at that point? I think we were walking bamboo sticks, I think. And we were dirty, full of sores, covered in head lice. And it was so bad, you used to just shake your head and knock it off you.

Because you didn't think of going into Changi prison with a net comb. And if somebody had one, they wouldn't lend it to you. It was too precious, you know. Because you had no shoes or anything like that. And you see, you had no scissors, so you just bit your nails. Silly things like that, but that's what we had to do. But also, I suppose, a lot of scarring as well. I know there is a story of your little brother who was punished for eating scraps of fruit, for example, that had fallen from the tree.

Yes, Peter did, yes. And he just picked it up. It was just automatic, you know, because we had the same tree in our garden at home before the war. And so he was punished only a little boy at that time, I think. He was 11. 10 or 11, yes, indeed. But with that, because you do document this horrendous, I suppose, gruelling physical manifestation of the war that, you know, that you weren't fed, that obviously as your brother was whipped and also being kept in such confines.

It's amazing you have made it to 91. Well, my sister's 94, but she's in a home at the moment. Yes, but she does, you know, especially sometimes because we were brought up in Malaya, we spoke the language and all that. Sometimes she remembers you. If I speak to her in Malay, she answers quite nicely. And with that, do you think back to those times? Because I know you went through a lot of experiences

that were very unpleasant and at times terrifying with your family being separated or not knowing whether you'd survive. You've written this book, and I imagine it must have been difficult to bring those memories up again. Yes, in a way. And yet you just went with the flow.

There's nothing else you could do. Sort of adjusting all the time. It depended on the mood of the guards as to how you behaved. And you knew the way they walked down, you know, the shoes. You knew the footsteps. And so you either were too close and you had to get ready to bow or you tried to get out of the way, you know.

You also, you spent nearly 18 months in Syme Road. For the previous two years, you were in Changi Jail. Conditions were frightening, but the adults were able to organise some activities for you, I understand, although obviously in secret. Even about the girl guides. Tell us about them, your lessons. Yes, well, Mrs Ennis was a guide leader before the war.

And so she thought she'd get us girls going. So we got three troops of girls. And so it was during that time that Mrs. Ennis had her birthday. And so we decided to do something for her. And that's when we decided to make a quilt for her. So that's when we were very naughty. We were always foraging, you know, because if you were working in the fields and the back of your dresses and clothes rotted,

you could get bits from the front. And we got things like that. And so we made this quilt for her. That is in the Imperial War Museum. Yes. And you're going to see it after the programme, I believe. Yes, yes. How incredible is that?

Yes, yes. I've seen it three times now, but it's so beautifully presented now. After the end of the war, your family were transported to Great Britain. It was the first time you and your siblings had been there. How would you describe that experience? Well, after the first week or so, we thought we'd rather go back to Changi. Really? Yes.

Why? Oh, well, we were so more or less abandoned as soon as we got to Southampton. The Red Cross were there and Salvation Army, and they gave us a hot drink. And then my mother had a message to say that one of her sisters would put us up for two nights and i think there's a uh it turned out it was my mother's great great uncle uh managed to get a two up two down place for us so of course we opened the front door and it was just off the pavement and we walked in and there's nothing there it was absolutely empty that's where we're going to live so then uh i think somebody scrounged and got two chairs sort of armchairs for us that

went into the front bedroom off the road and mum and dad slept in there they slept in there all the time we never had mum and dad never had a. And then there was three flights and the second floor Peter and George had, we just slept on the floor until other people gave us beds and that. So it was pretty rough as well when you arrived. You did eventually return to Malaysia. Yes. Is that where you felt most at home, do you think? Oh, yes. But the thing was, you see, at the end of the war we wanted to go home as we

said you know yeah but they wouldn't allow us they said because mum and dad were English we had to come to England they wouldn't allow us to go back to Malaya again and so that was awful I mean we'd never I don't we'd never had mashed potato before, you know, and we got home and there was no rice. You know, it was such an absolute change. Olga Henderson, and so many of you got in touch to say what a remarkable interview that was, including Roberta, who said, an absolutely amazing interview. What an insightful and heartfelt account. Now, for many many people going to university

is a formative experience it's a place to learn grow and form lifelong friendships but for the 10,000 children and young people who leave the care system each year it can be a different story financial vulnerability mental health issues and a lack of support can hinder access to higher education even if they get the grades they need. Only 14% of pupils who've been in care go straight to university. That's compared to 47% of all other pupils. And those care leavers who do make it to uni are much more likely to drop out. I spoke to Kim Emineke, who moved from a foster home to a hostel, age 17, where she studied for A-levels. But first, Catherine Sachs-Jones, chief executive of the charity Become,

which supports children in care and young care leavers. We know about 10,000 children leave the care system every year and they're not as likely to go on to university as their peers, sadly. And that's because they face more barriers in doing well in education in the first place. You heard about Kim's story. She was in a hostel when she was having to do her exams. We know children in care are moved around the system a lot, sometimes in the middle of exams, sometimes changing schools multiple times a year. And on top of that, often they've been through significant trauma, have mental health problems and face a lot of stigma and lower aspirations for them, actually.

So it's really hard for young people who are care experienced to get to university in the first place. And then when they're there, they face a whole hurdle of barriers that other students don't. You know, in terms of the financial and debts, often a real issue for care experienced young people who don't have that family support to rely on. There are practical issues worrying about where you're going to live in the summer holidays, for example, and emotional issues as well. It can be really isolating and lonely being a care experienced student at university. You know, and just imagine, you know, you turn up on the first day and for a lot of care experienced students, they do that on their own, you know, and their peers are there with, you know mum and dad dropping them off and and they're having to turn up on their own and it can be you know and that can continue throughout university and it can feel really um really hard and really lonely and there needs to be better support both to make sure that young people are

supported so they can do well at school um that there are real aspirations for young people leaving care and that they get meaningful support in university so that they can stay there and do well. Because it can be, you know, a real opportunity for them to kind of get on in life and go on and have a bright future. But unfortunately, we don't have the systems in place to support, to give care experienced students the support that they need. Before I come to you, Kim, I'm just going to read out this message that we've had from one of our listeners saying, Hello, I'm a 50-something care leaver. I left care, was chucked out into the world, age 17, halfway through A-levels, which I ended up dropping out of.

I'd previously been in the top sets at school, used to do well in exams, had been assessed as a gifted child with an IQ of 150. My life could have been so different if social services had supported me through college and university instead of discarding me like rubbish. I could have had a successful career. Instead, I've been in and out of mostly low paid jobs for most of my adult life. Catherine, I'm going to come back to you in a minute to talk about how we could change the system to support people like that and make sure that people don't feel that they've been chucked out and left to fend for themselves. But Kim, let's talk to you about your experience of being in care and how that impacted you getting to university. Yeah, so I went into care from the age of seven. I was actually in care for 10 years, right up until 17.

I had a very mixed experience in care. The first five years were great. And then the subsequent five years were absolutely hell that the relationship deteriorated between my foster carer and I and it meant that the summer that I was turning 18 they decided that the placement was unfit for me my foster carer made it clear that she didn't want me there anymore and she wanted me out and the only option I had was to move into a hostel I wasn't actually provided with any other option of moving in with another family or staying put. Like it was at 17, Kim, you're moving out. And what's really interesting

is because that was my second year of A-levels that I was going into. So it meant that I actually completed my A-levels in a hostel. And being 17, you're just a child because I'm 25 now and I still think I'm relatively young. So imagine back when I was 17, I was a baby. And just to have that expectation of performing well in school, getting the grades to even get into uni. I had additional pressures of paying bills. I had to pay for my light, pay for gas, electricity, pay for council tax. And having that pressure at the age of 17 is absolutely crazy because when you look at your peers, all they're worrying about is probably how their hair looks and their grades. But not only am I worrying about that, I'm also worrying about bills. And at the age of 17, it's just absolutely absurd to have those kind of additional pressures.

And when you're living in a hostel, that's not exactly an environment that pushes you to go to a top performing university. When I look at the people that pushes you to go to a top performing university when i look at the people that i was living next to someone had come out of prison for rape someone else had come out of prison for fighting so we had all of these things going on i didn't even have access to wi-fi or just to the internet so even trying to support myself to do my a levels it was a struggle because i just didn't have the right resources and I wasn't in the right environment. I am feeling so proud of your resilience and tenacity to still pursue and continue through that environment. Like what kept you going? How did you manage to pursue and keep on at your A-levels? I think to me, I've always seen education as your way out. I've always seen

education to link to power, link into a good job, link into having a position in society. So for me, I thought if I smash my A-levels, I go to Loughborough, I'll have a good degree, I'll be able to just go into a good job, I'll be able to get my permanent house and that would be my way out of the system. And then how was your experience at uni? I had a very mixed experience like overall I absolutely loved being at uni but like I said being at Care Leaver it came with its challenges. When you go to university for anybody it's very daunting, it's quite a lonely experience, I think it's quite isolating. I'm from southeast London, I went to Loughborough which is is obviously a small town. So it's very different from home. And I felt like when I went to uni, I just didn't have any support. The only support I could rely on was my personal network. So like my best friend and her family.

In terms of social services, like my PA came to see me once and then I never heard from her for the rest of my time at uni in that year. And it meant that I had a mental breakdown and I just didn't know where to go but the average person has their parents cheering them on giving them care packages just there to give you that additional love and support but you don't have that when you're a care leaver you don't necessarily have those kind of networks so you feel very much on your own so my first year was definitely tough but then I got in contact with one of my teachers from school and she got me in contact with student services at Loughborough and they were giving me support.

And that really helped throughout my time at Loughborough. Well, Catherine, what can we do? What can be done to support care leavers through going to university? I mean, you know, listening to Kim, what she's achieved is amazing. She's amazing. You're amazing, Kim. But it's absolutely outrageous and makes me so angry, the hurdles that she had to overcome to get to where she is today. No child should have to face that. We have to do much better for children in care. So that means improving the care system itself, reducing instability, stopping children being moved from school to school. Children often have to leave care at 16 and go into a hostel in exactly the circumstances Kim described. That should not be

the case. How can we expect children to study for exams when they're living in hostels, often with much older adults with no Wi-Fi access? We have to do better and make sure that every child has a stable, loving home. And then when it comes to leaving care and going into university, we need to end that care cliff of support, which means that young people are expected to be independent overnight at 18 and we need to make sure there's much better joined up support between the local authority and the university to make sure that every care experienced student gets as much support as possible to help them and succeed in education because like Kim said it is the route to a better life you know and we have to make sure that we do all we can to help care experience succeed in education. Because like Kim said, it is the route to a better life, you know, and we have to make sure that we do all we can

to help care experience succeed in university. Catherine Sachs-Jones and Kim Emineke. Now, you might know my next guest from phrases like, here's one I made earlier. Yep, Sarah Green is perhaps most well-known for her work on shows such as Blue Peter and Going Live, but she's back on our screens with a brand new quiz show. Finish Line sees her take on a new role in her repertoire, that of quiz master, alongside her co-host Roman Kemp. The first episode is out on BBC One at 4.30 on

Monday and I started by asking how she's feeling about it. Very excited indeed. And I've done most things. This isn't a boasting. This is just longevity, I think. I've done most things on television apart from sport, which is a whole other subject. This time, yeah. I say never. And I had been on quiz shows as a contestant, but never really on the other side of it. I mean, on shows like Superstore and Going Live, we had little quiz moments there. And again, I was the one asking the questions on that. But when you appear as a contestant and you'll know this, Anita, it is terrifying. Yeah, absolutely terrifying. And I did Richard Osmond's House of Games, which actually by some fluke, I managed to win one of those shows. And I've done The Chase, which was, I mean, I love that show. I'm addicted to it.

And I realise how brilliant Bradley Walsh is. He's amazing. Yeah, he's a master. Absolute king. He and Richard Osman. So it was very lovely to be asked earlier this year, how do you fancy taking on a role a bit like the sort of Richard Osman role on Pointless, but on a new quiz format? And I said, is there such a thing as a new quiz format? And they sent it to me and I was intrigued it's compelling I was biting my nails and I was watching people walking it through without any of the technology involved yeah in their office and I loved it I said god I would love to do this I really would did the phone call just arrive or were you ready were you ready to to come back and get your teeth into something?

A bit of each, really. A bit of each. I mean, life changed dramatically for me back in 2010 and then 13 and 14. And I lost my mother and my father and my husband, Mike, within that space of time. And the world turned upside down I really had to relearn life actually and it was very raw anyone who's been through this um knows this feeling that sort of feeling that you you're turning into something of an emotional punch bag, actually. But I knew when I was feeling less raw, and I have been very, very lucky in the intervening years

in what's happened in my life. Mike left me with a huge, huge task on my hands, which was a wonderful thing, a wonderful gift he gave me, which was taking on his business, learning the ropes with that, which wasn't so much climbing a cliff face or, you know, it was the learning curve wasn't a curve. It was a precipice. So your life really was set up.

It really was. So I had to kind of change focus in most ways. And step away from what you'd always done. Yes. And I knew when I was offered certain jobs in television and radio that actually, yes, I'm ready to take on that, but not that. It was all a bit raw. And then fortunately for me, I have a wonderful beloved in my life now. And he has helped me tremendously find my confidence again and find out who I am now in this new chapter. And, you know, we take our beloveds with us. Mom and dad and Mike, they come with us.

But I just felt ready for this sort of a challenge. And I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed it. It has been tremendous. It's been like coming home. It really has. Now, I waxed my arm hairs the other day, so you can't see that they're standing up on end just listening to you speak.

But really, truly... Thank you for sharing that with me. Yeah, it's the confidence, what I wanted to talk to you about. Because your role, I grew up watching you on screen and you trained as an actress and then presenting came your way. And you found yourself at the age of 22, so young, presenting Blue Peter. Confidence is what it's all about. You need to step out there and be yourself. So then lose it.

Yes. It wasn't a case of knowing that I'd lost it as far as my professional life was concerned. I just knew I felt hollowed out and raw. And when that started to heal, sadness has a very bitter taste. And when that started to taste sweeter, when I realised I was laughing without hurting, when I realized that I'd got my appetite back for life I thought yeah I'm I'm I'm healing here and you know when something comes in and you just want to grab it with both hands you think yes now I'm I'm I'm back on track yeah I had all these questions that I wanted to ask you about um being a woman at a certain age in the industry and how hard it might have been and actually what I'm feeling now is

age is sort of irrelevant for does that it feels like for you it absolutely feels that and I can't tell you the whys and wherefores except that um I am someone who doesn't like categories, boxes. I want there to be diversity everywhere and a diversity of choice. And that's the thing. If you're someone who's come from, as you say, you know, I was training and I did work as an actress early on. My career trajectory, I wanted to be running the National Theatre by the time I was 30 I'm not saying I was over ambitious but it just a tangent happened and and I got offered I got given another opportunity and I think sometimes there are sliding doors moments

that are kind of meant to be and we should listen to that. And if things don't go the way that you saw or see your trajectory going, it will work out. Uplifting words from Sarah Green, who's back on our screens from Monday at 4.30 on BBC One. That's it from me. Join us next week for Listener Week, where we'll be exploring all the wonderful topics you've suggested from women in heavy metal

to peripheral friendships. Don't miss it, and good luck, England. Go the Lionesses. From BBC Radio 4, a new fiction podcast. I want you to hold something for me. Hold something. A holiday in Dubai. The missing Korean telecommunications tycoon was found dead this morning.

Takes a deadly turn. A guy you've never seen before offers you 10 grand to look after an envelope, and you take it. Tell nobody. Not even your girlfriend, okay? There's something I need to tell you. It'll save a lot of lives if you help us. This is all a terrible mistake. We just want to go home. We don't want to... Shut up! Available now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.