Woman's Hour - World record Atlantic rowers, Police culture, Women and investing

Episode Date: February 5, 2022

Two women with no previous rowing experience have smashed the world record for the fastest female pair to row across the Atlantic. We hear from Jessica Oliver and Charlotte Harris who rowed 3000 miles over 45 days in the Talisker Whisky Atlantic Challenge, battling 30 ft waves, sharks and sleep deprivation. Photo credit Atlantic CampaignsVile text messages have come to light which were shared between police officers belonging to the Metropolitan Police. The IOPC has said: "We believe these incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few 'bad apples'." The Met has said that it is 'sorry'. We hear reaction from Zoe Billingham, former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary. And we hear from listener Amanda,. Her son, George, is planning to join the Police later this year and she is worried but he is determined to be part of the change. Big investment firms are missing out on up to 2.37 trillion pounds of potential investment because of their poor record in attracting female investors. That was a warning this week from the giant investment bank BNY Mellon, which revealed only 28% of women feel confident in investing their money. Anne-Marie McConnon is the bank's chief client experience officer, and she tells us more about their findings. She’s joined by Sarah Turner the founder of Angel Academe, a network for mostly-female angel investors.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Weekend Woman's Hour, a short and sweet edition. You might be inspired to make a few bob today as we hear from two women about investing your money and the challenges of rowing across the Atlantic. It all started going wrong kind of like 10 days out from the end. That's when we capsized, that's when our autohalm, the water maker broke, we hit the other boat, lost the music.

I think I had one playlist downloaded and I was like, if I hear Katy Perry firework one more time, I'm going to throw myself overboard. Jessica and Charlotte, who smashed the world record by becoming the fastest female pair to row 3,000 miles across the Atlantic. More from them later. But first. This week, a new report exposed vile, abusive and offensive text messages sent between police officers, mostly aimed at women.

The words were exchanged by serving Metropolitan Police officers between 2016 and 2018. The messages were uncovered by the police watchdog, the Independent Office for Police Conduct, during an investigation which found disgraceful misogyny, discrimination, bullying and sexual harassment. Most officers investigated were police constables based at Charing Cross Police Station in London.

In its report, the IOPC said, we believe this incidents are not isolated or simply the behaviour of a few bad apples. These revelations follow the murder of Sarah Everard at the hands of serving Met Police Officer Wayne Cousins and the convictions of two Met Police Officers for taking and sharing inappropriate images of the murder scene of sisters Nicole Smallman and Biba Henry. Emma heard from the former Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary, Zoe Billingham. It's utterly eye-watering, the comments, and not repeatable on this programme,

but despicable, disgusting, disgraceful. Enough simply is enough. But how many times have we been here? Emma, you and I spoke on the morning that Wayne Cousins was sentenced and we talked then about the need for the police culture to change. I think we've got to be really honest and start talking not about culture, because that's quite a kind of cosy, nice sounding word, isn't it? We've got to start talking about racism, bullying, misogyny,

abuse of position, demeaning, disgraceful, discriminatory behaviour. And that conversation needs to be had in forces up and down the land on a daily basis. We don't want to send officers on a course once every three years to talk about how should I behave as an officer. This needs to be part of the current day-to-day conversation within policing. And we need to take a really, really long hard look about who becomes a police officer. If you want to hear more of the interview with Zoe Billingham and also with Shabnam Chowdhury, who served as an officer in the Met for 30 years, you can listen back via BBC Sounds.

The Metropolitan Police issued a statement at the time of the allegations. The conduct of a team of officers at Charing Cross Police Station in central London does not represent the values of the Metropolitan Police Service. We're deeply sorry to Londoners and everyone they've failed with their appalling conduct and acknowledge how this will damage the trust and confidence of many in the Met. Well, many of you contacted the programme in response to offer your views, including Amanda. Her son George is planning to join the police later this year and she's worried. Emma spoke to both of them. A while ago, George

decided that he would like to join the police and he then enrolled in a course, a policing and criminology course. Initially, I was sort of worried when he first said it, more as a mum worrying about his safety on the streets and, you know, everything that goes along with that. And then I thought, well, this is what he really wants to do. So I decided I wanted to back him 100 percent. So off he went to college. In the meantime, you know, more and more of these different revelations of me coming out about what's going on on the ground in the police force. Yes. And I found myself now actually nervous for what he might encounter in the station far more than nervous for what he might encounter

out on the street. Which is quite an extraordinary thing to say, isn't it, and to feel. It is. It is. I really looked at this and thought, am I responding too much to what's in the press? Or is this, you know, is it unfounded? Is it very much small pockets of problems in the force? Or is this something that's spread all the way through, in which case he has a very high likelihood of coming across this himself. George, what do you make of your mum's concerns about the culture or the language or the style of people that you're going to come across in the police perhaps being

more worrying than what you're actually going to deal with out there? I think that there might be bullying in every workplace and especially ones where it requires like a certain level of aptitude but my mum is just like any other mum and I think that most mums would worry I just think that um it's something I really wanted to do and you know you just gotta do it if you feel like you want to I suppose why do you want to be a police officer well what I want to do has changed quite a lot over the over the years as it does for most young people but um mostly it's just like you see bad things happen to people and you just want to help them.

And sometimes you don't want to get really personal with them, but you just want to know that you're protecting them. And I also know that in the future, if I was ever to have a family or anything, it would be a really nice thing to have my kids know that I do is a job that's something that they can be proud of. So it's just like a multitude of good things that go with it, I suppose, for me. And do you feel as someone coming in, because we were talking a little bit about this on yesterday's programme,

about how important it is to recruit and who you recruit and how you train them and the culture that surrounds them. Do you feel optimistic that perhaps your generation could be different? And we are by no means saying that it's all parts of the police that are having these issues, but we do see more and more evidence that these sorts of conversations have been happening. Yeah. I think the new generations are more aware, for sure, than the older generations. I think that we were still recovering from like, quite a lot of bad cultures in like the 80s and the 90s and things. And my teacher, for instance, he started being a police officer in the 80s. And he himself had a firsthand account of how worse things were, but he tells us daily that they have come a long way. And even in training, for instance, with me, the amount of times you're told,

you know, we're a diverse police force, we want to be as diverse as we can. I think they're trying their best, but there's still obviously a lot of problems. I hope that as the generations progress, it might kind of filter out. Amanda, of course, you'll remember being George's age and the hopes and dreams that you had, and I'm sure still have in some ways. But in your email to us, you said he's not the type to stay quiet. And of course, there is this concern still about in the police, because, you know, the messages I read out yesterday are the ones I was able to read out in part because they

were too abusive and vile to read out yesterday or the ones I was able to read out in part because they were too abusive and vile to read out at the time I certainly broadcast, although some were saying, please do read them out. One of the issues is, and they were from 2016 to 2018, they're not from a long time ago, is this call-out culture is still a problem within the police and how you police the police is an issue. Absolutely.

I mean, I think that is absolutely at the core of everything, because in any environment where you have bullying and you have bigotry, the only way to remove that is to have a call out culture where people feel comfortable and know they are right to say something about it. But of course, again, as a mum with my own son, I'd be very nervous for him. I don't want him to be in a position where he feels threatened or he feels that he's not being supported. That would be something that would be very worrying. You don't want to be the person that stands up and says, your colleagues are doing this, that or the other. But it has to start somewhere. Otherwise,

that continues on and the rot just keeps spreading and spreading. And also, we're still the new intake who are coming in with all their high hopes, with all their ideas of what they want to do and how they want to do it. That will start to become infected. It has to be stopped really in a in a very, very clear way. I think officers who say and do the things that are in these reports need to be swept out fast. George, what was your reaction when you saw or heard what those police officers have said? And of course, it's the latest in the line of some revelations about the police.

It's really, really horrible because, I mean, I can't imagine really what it's like for any victims of that kind of culture. But what I can imagine is what it's like for other police officers who are just trying to do the right thing. I think that the problem is, is just like when you're driving and all the bad things happen, the good things, you don't remember the good things, you just think of the bad things quite rightly in this situation but you know there's a lot of good police officers that don't get attention because they're just good how they should be and they just want to not be spat at and not be hated but above all it's

just really horrible to hear these kind of things uh policing should be something where you know you're proud to go into and when you tell your neighbours that you're going into policing, it's like, well, you know, good for him, he's really helping society. But nowadays it doesn't feel like that. Yeah, I was going to say, do you feel that if you say to people, I want to be a police officer, do you think it's a good reaction or a bad reaction?

I don't talk about it a lot because it's not, unless I'm asked. By a national radio station. But I guess there's always a kind of back feeling of distaste when I tell people. It's really weird. But it's just kind of like, oh, good for you. And it's not, there's no kind of like he wants to do good. There's never that assumption. George and his mum, Amanda, there.

Now, remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10am during the week. All you have to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via the Woman's Hour website. Now this week we also featured interviews with the novelist Monica Alley and the American women's rights lawyer Gloria Allred who continues to represent 20 accusers of Jeffrey Epstein. She's also a fan of Ruth Bader Ginsburg and owns some statues of her.

She is everything that people thought she was and more, just so committed to women's rights and rights for minorities. I love that you're, you know, as this is radio for me to describe, I love that since I've mentioned this little statue where she's got a crown and a cape, you've been holding it like a microphone. By the way, she had nine justices on the United States Supreme Court. Someone asked her how many should be women. She said nine.

And then people were surprised. And she said no one was surprised when there were nine men on the Supreme Court. Why would they be surprised that I say there should be nine women? Women's rights lawyer Gloria Allred speaking to Emma there. Now, big investment firms are missing out on up to £2.3 trillion of potential investment. Why? Well, because of their poor record

in attracting female investors. It's a warning in a new report released this week from the giant investment bank BNY Mellon, which is headquartered in New York. I spoke to Sarah Turner, who's co-founder of Angel Academy, a network for mostly female angel investors, and Anne-Marie McConnen, who is BYN Mellon's Chief Client Experience Officer based here in London, about the report.

What we established was that women do want to invest and they've got trillions that they can add to global investing. And importantly, they said that they want to invest in businesses that can have a positive impact on society. But there are some big challenges and barriers that are stopping women from investing today. And this expansive study really shows that those barriers are firstly income. We don't think that we earn enough to even consider investing. There's a perception that it's just for the high risk takers and and then finally it's just 28 percent of women globally so that they feel confident

about investing and we think that's actually a knock-on impact of the industry that i'm in not engaging with women effectively so women do need to act and take control of their own financial prosperity and well-being. But actually, the onus is also on us in the industry to change and evolve. I guess there is a perception that you need a lot of money to invest, don't you? Well, yeah, one of the, I mean, globally, again, if we look at the study, women believe on average they need an additional $4,000. So that's about £3,000 here in the UK before they'll

even consider investing. And that's just not the case. Actually, there are lots of different opportunities. You can invest from as little as a pound in this country. And if I look at our own company, our minimum investment levels is around £50 per month. And so for regular investors, that's a really great way to get started a little bit of money every month can make a really big difference over time and you said that it isn't about high risk but it is about risk ultimately isn't it you are taking a risk with your money and is that something possibly traditionally um that women have been reluctant to do because traditionally certainly we've been more prudent with our finances yeah i think we think we are. You know, we're certainly still

perceived to be the caretakers in the family. And as a result, I think, and actually studies have shown that women react completely differently to men, even to the word risk. You know, it means fear and creates anxiety for us. But actually, there are lots of different types of investment out there with all different types of risk profiles and risk levels. So the reality is it's about balance and it's certainly not as risky as women are perceiving it is today. And so those are some of the big challenges that we as an industry have to change and we have to overcome if we're going to enable women to connect much more. And because today we're just not talking their language. Yeah. So is it about as simple as that language? Just even the language around it is just not talking their language. Yeah. So is it about as simple as that? The language, just even the language around it is just not addressing women.

Yeah, I absolutely believe that. One of the other things that we saw, Anita, within the report, we interviewed 100 asset management firms like us, and 86% of them admitted today their default customer is a man. So they weren't even targeting women. And I was really personally surprised and astonished by that stat. today their default customer is a man. So they weren't even targeting women. And, you know, I was really personally surprised and astonished by that stat. And so I think as a result,

women are being met with imagery, language, even words like an overemphasis on the word return, financial return. And what we've heard from women quite clearly is they care much more about purpose beyond profit. They want their money to go into things that are going to have a bigger impact in society. It's not just about the return. And so we have to change that if we are really going to be able to connect much more effectively.

That's really interesting that it's over 80% that you're targeting men. Is that also because it's predominantly men that work in the industry? Well, it's a really good point because we absolutely need more women coming into this industry if it's going to change. And so one of the things that we want to do is really make sure that we connect with young girls much earlier on money and investing. It was some also really interesting geographical nuances in the report. So if you look at Brazil and India, as an example, they had some of the highest confidence levels from around the world. And what we established was they were having conversations with young girls much earlier about money and investing.

And that was having a really positive knock on confidence and also participation. How fascinating that more women in India and Brazil are investing. I want to bring Sarah Turner, who's co-founder of Angel Academy, into this. Sarah, tell us. So you are all about angel investors. Tell us what an angel investor is briefly before we talk about what you do. So an angel investor is an individual like me. We've taken care of our basic financial needs. So we've made some of the straightforward investments.

And for some of our investable money we allocate it to investing directly into companies so we find startup companies and and in our case at angel academy we're focused on ones started by women they're often not only employing more women in their own organizations so affecting social change but sometimes they have a specific social purpose as well, just to pick up on Anne-Marie's point. And we're investing money directly into those businesses. So it's a great way to connect directly with your capital. You have a relationship with the business. You see it from the early stage.

You help it grow. You put money in. You also advise them if you've got some special expertise that's relevant to the business. So it's a relatively high risk asset class. So it's something you need to approach carefully. So we work as a group of angel investors together to make sure that we're researching these companies very carefully and we're careful about where we put our money. And your network... Yes, sorry, go on.

I'm sorry, yeah. No, no. I was just going to say, picking up on the point about risk, you know, it's important we take risks in all areas of our lives, but it's important we understand what that risk is. And we manage that risk. And that's how to think about it. But without risk, there's no return. There's no growth on your capital. And you run a network for mostly female angel investors. So how did you go about attracting women? It's a good question. It's not easy.

I started Angel Academy because I'd been doing some angel investing. I went to these networks. I was the only woman in the room and it really surprised me. And I thought, hey, there must be more women out there that be interested in this. And I found this amazing statistic that actually women in the UK own almost half the wealth. So we're not participating because we don't have the money. It's because nobody's been talking to us about it. There are no networks that are talking to women.

The industry, as you picked up on, is very largely male dominated. There's this whole language that exists that's been designed by men for men. And so women are just put off from this. Plus, you know, traditionally we're less engaged with our money and often kind of, you know, taught to basically delegate financial decisions to men. And it's a real shame, you know, not only are our pension pots growing more slowly than men, because we're investing less as a proportion of our own money, but we're not able to influence where those investments go. And like Anne-Marie was saying, you know, women have different priorities for their money. Yes, it's important we see a financial return, but we can use our economic power to invest which businesses get our money.

So you've got a platform now. Lots of our listeners, maybe they've never thought about investment, convince them. Why should they do it? Why should they put their money into a pot and take the risk, Sarah, or either of you? Well, I'd just uh it's incredibly stimulating it it's it's in enriching you know we're helping new businesses being built by um young often people who who haven't done this before and they're changing the world so we're investing in businesses that are developing new technologies around medicine uh environmental technologies and all those all those sort of areas i'm smiling

sarah because even that is a really interesting answer i think specifically designed for women because you're telling them what they're going to get out of it you know who they're supporting rather than i guess the bottom line which is you might make some money out of this amary well we hope to make money out of it yes that is important not to forget that because that is the purpose of investing it's not charity um but you know we want to have some fun and we want to do some good along the way and um you know because the angel investment community is so male dominated most of the money is going to men and men who are building businesses. So we are using our wealth to try and kind of level the playing field for female entrepreneurs.

Sounds good to me. Thank you both very much. That was Sarah Turner and Anne-Marie McCunnan. Now, the Winter Olympics may have started, but to another spectacular sporting achievement. Two British rowers with absolutely zero rowing experience have smashed the world record for the fastest female pair to row across the Atlantic. Best friends Jessica Oliver and Charlotte Harris rowed 3,000 miles west from the Canary Islands to Antigua as part of the Talisker Whiskey Atlantic Challenge. They did this in 45 days, 7 hours and 25 minutes, wiping five whole days off the previous female pair's world record. Emma began by asking both of them about their record-winning achievement. It's not sunk in at all. Oh my gosh, sorry, my voice has gone a bit.

No, we completely haven't processed anything yet. I think we got off the boat maybe six days ago and it's just been a complete whirlwind. We're here with our friends and family. I don't think we've had a second together, Charlotte, just to think about what's gone on, who we are and what's happened. But it feels amazing. And I know it's there in the background bubbling

and I just can't wait to kind of really get into the weeds of it and to think about what we've done. Charlotte, is Jessica's voice hoarse because you've just been out partying ever since? Absolutely. I was going to say, it's the reason we haven't been able to think about what we've done. Charlotte is um is Jessica's voice hoarse because you've just been out partying ever since? Absolutely I was gonna say it's the reason we haven't been able to think I mean I think mine is just as hoarse we said we actually said the post row party is maybe harder than the row yeah we really have we've gone to town but I think I think needed really after 45 days on the boat with just us. So you row hard you party hard that's the rule? Exactly we actually had that written on our cabin.

Yeah, inside the cabin. One of it was like, the faster you row, the longer the party. You're practising it. What prompted it, Charlotte? Why did you think, we've never rowed before,

let's go rowing? So I actually worked for Diageo who owns Talisker and there was a guy who was training for it. And I thought, you know, if he can do it, then I absolutely can too and then

Jess is obviously my best friend 10 years and we've done challenges before we've done the um white collar fight club and once we did that we were like we need something bigger and better and I said enter Talisker Whiskey Atlantic Challenge Jess goes I wouldn't do that in a speedboat fast forward about two months and there we are signing up I never believed that we'd get to this point where we smashed the world record. That was never in our sight, but unbelievable. And Jessica, what do you do to train?

Are you constantly on a rowing machine? Are you running? What are you doing? Well, so we actually started training during COVID so we didn't have access to a gym. So I think Charlotte hired a rowing machine, but we actually worked with a guy called Gus Barton who specialises in ocean rowing.

So we did loads of different things, but we were training six times a week and then obviously during the weekends we'd get in the car and we'd drive down to Essex where we would train on the water so it was all consuming for about two years but I mean again so worth it and what was it like on board I mean this is this is a key question Charlotte what snacks do you have we ran out day 20 because me and Jess are binge eaters can't have it in the house it's in the house I can't like it's gonna be gone so by 20 imagine having 440,000 calories on board we were like what that is is a challenge so after day 20 it was genuinely the haribo the milker it was all gone I mean we literally cleaned our teeth and we thought that was we should be deserved a bar of chocolate afterwards so i think that was actually

a bit difficult because i think by then we were robbing our future selves of snacks so i think day 40 it suddenly got a bit hard because we were like i can't just have another dehydrated meal so yeah we we really did run out quickly we actually really nearly ran out of food and other stuff for the whole time we we couldn't have been on the water I think for any longer and like wipes sun cream food I think I had five days worth of meals left that was it so I don't know what we would have done actually to be honest but we ate like well that's what hang on this makes sense mathematically you wiped five whole days off the previous female pairs record this because you had nothing left basically yeah sensational planning is what I'm hearing but you know Jessica there must have been um you know some

really difficult times doing this you know although you're great friends you obviously keep each other going laughing however many sweets and chocolates I imagine some of the weather conditions and also what was going on with with birds with sharks tell us a bit about that side of it do you know what there were some really difficult moments and it wasn't really the kind of the big stories that you hear the fact that we capsized we crashed into another boat we saw a shark it was all of those things happened we should say as well all of those things happened and they were fine actually they were because you know your adrenaline kicks in and you just get through them so that's that's kind of fine and actually the real challenge was

it was such a long endurance race and mentally it can be very difficult to understand that actually you're 20 days away you've done 25 days you've got another 20 to go and you know it's long and it's endurance and sometimes you have self-doubt and you don't know how you're going to get through it and I think the real benefit to us and our team was the fact that we had each other, was the fact that we had such a strong team dynamic, you know, talking to each other and being open about, you know, what you're going through mentally. I think that was a real benefit to us on board. And having to, I suppose, do that while, to bring it back to you, Charlotte, you know, you are contending with, I don't know,'t know I did read tell me more a bird flying in your face in the dark while you're rowing so that was actually Jessica I had a scream from the cabin and Jess I'll let you tell the story I don't know what to say it was it was pitch black and I was on the odds I was like I was

kind of having the time of my life I was listening to the great music I was like this is the experience of a lifetime and suddenly a bird just flew in my face. I didn't know what it was or where it came from. I mean, you're in the middle of the Atlantic. You wouldn't expect to see a bird. But anyway, so yeah, that was kind of a niche one. An encounter in the midst of this and trying to keep the mental side of it going.

When the music got boring, you resorted to a challenge of storytelling. Who did what? this is my favorite thing ever because actually and I'm going to give it to Charlotte this I said the scullery made in the 1800s and we were I mean I can't really remember it we must have been so bored but she came up with this story I remember being engrossed with this story but now we look back and I think it was really plagiarized I think it's plagiarized to be honest I think I'd seen something and I think I pulled it out but it's all about this scullery maid who's like investigating a murder up at the manor turned out it was the identical twin who'd ended up in the

attic because like she'd killed the mother and it was and it just was like looking at me like where is this coming from I'm like I think it's a BBC drama Charlotte this is Hollywood stuff right here this is like brilliant we needed it the thing is the music did get really boring and then I think on day 35 we actually lost Spotify which it all started going wrong kind of like 10 days out from the end that's when we capsized that's when our autohelm the watermaker broke we hit the other boat lost the music and I think I had one playlist download and I was like if I hear Katy Perry firework one more time I'm gonna throw myself in the water so so you are across all of the papers wonderful photos of you what was the moment you actually realized you you broke the record Charlotte

well we never set out to break the world record at all we were always like the success criteria was what we're going to get across and then I think the first 10 days we just went a bit mad we were like on the oars two up the whole time really going for it and then I think the first 10 days we just went a bit mad we were like on the oars two up the whole time really going for it and then suddenly people start putting in our ear that you could get the world record and then that almost drove us I think all the way home also keeping up with the threes and fours because we obviously wanted to party I think once people started saying like that in our ear we just didn't really give up and then it was almost about wait a minute how much can we actually shave off of this time and then I think three days out we thought

we were going to get maybe 44 days and we ended up getting it was interesting actually once we thought we'd get 44 and we didn't think then we didn't realize that we were going to get it we almost came to get depressed we weren't going to get 44 days and then we have to like shake ourselves and say hang on a minute you're going to shave five days why does it matter if it's five or six but then once we were five minutes, I think five minutes out from the finish line and boats actually started coming behind us. And it was almost people came out,

turned around and started following us. We started rowing even harder. And I think that's when it said, then it was, this is real. And we crossed that line and it was like, we turned, looked at each other and almost threw threw ourselves onto each other we were just like what have we just done you've become world record holders that's what you've done you're absolute legends that's it from me enjoy the rest of your weekend and

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