Woman's Hour - Wrestling, Margaret McDonagh remembered, Little Black Dress, Sue Barker, HRT

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

A new study has suggested that women who take hormone replacement therapy to relieve their menopause symptoms may increase their risk of dementia. Scientists at Copenhagen University found that women who had taken HRT were 24 per cent more likely to get dementia or Alzheimer’s disease than women of the same age and background who did not use the treatment. But other researchers have said that the cognitive declines may not have been due to treatment. Joining Hayley are Professor Pauline Maki from the University of Illinois at Chicago who has conducted research on menopause and Dr Nelsan Pourhadi from the Danish Dementia Research Centre, the lead researcher on the study.This weekend, World Wrestling Entertainment is coming to the UK. Among the professional wrestlers performing at the 02 in London will be the current Women’s World Champion Rhea Ripley. She has had a meteoric rise to the top of WWE and joins Hayley to talk about her journey to becoming champion, as well as what it’s like to be a woman in such a masculine world. Baroness Margaret McDonagh, the first female general secretary of the Labour Party, has died aged 61. Margaret McDonagh became a key figure in the Labour party under Sir Tony Blair's leadership, and played a central role in the 1997 and 2001 Labour general election victories. Glioblastoma, a type of brain tumour caused her death. Her sister Siobhain believes more research is needed into the causes and treatment of glioblastoma. Next week is the start of Wimbledon. Last week marked the 50th Anniversary of the creation of the Women's Tennis Association, also known as the WTA. It was established by Billie Jean King in 1973, after a meeting in London of 60 of the world's best female tennis players at the time. Krupa Padhy recently spoke to Sue Barker, who has both played at Wimbledon and been the presenter of BBC TV coverage for three decades, before stepping down last year. Krupa asked Sue if she thinks women's tennis, driven by Billie Jean King, has improved since she herself was playing in the 1970s and 1980s.From Liz Hurley’s iconic safety pin dress, to Audrey Hepburn’s iconic ‘Breakfast at Tiffany’s’ gown, the Little Black Dress has taken many forms over the years. The National Museum of Scotland opens an exhibition this weekend called ‘Beyond the Little Black Dress’ which will explore the evolution of the LBD and its relationship with female liberation since it came on the scene almost 100 years ago. Hayley is joined by the exhibit’s curator, Georgina Ripley to find out more. Presenter: Hayley Hassall Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to the programme. I'm Hayley Hassell and as always on Woman's Hour, we have an eclectic mix of engaging and important topics of conversation today. I'm going to be talking to the WWE Women's World Champion, Rhea Ripley. She can smack down, airplane spin and atomic drop some of the best fighters in the world, including men. And she's here to tell me how she started wrestling and has made her name amongst those most macho-centric competitors in the world of wrestling. And I'll be speaking to Siobhan McDonough about the death of her much-loved sister, Margaret McDonagh, who sadly passed away at the weekend.

Margaret was the first female General Secretary of the Labour Party, and she played a key role in the 1997 landslide election victory for Tony Blair and New Labour, amongst many other achievements. Well, Siobhan will be joining me later to talk about her memories and her sister's amazing experiences. And do you own a little black dress? Has it been your armour through some iconic moments in your life? Well later I'll be joined by the curator of the National Museum of Scotland, Georgina Ripley, and she talks me through the history of the little black dress and how that simple frock has changed the course of not only women's fashion, but our identity over the last century. So I want to know your LBD stories. Has your

little black dress been with you through some memorable times or got you out of a sticky situation? Maybe you were wearing it when you met your partner. Maybe you had some fancy occasion you feared and the black dress saved the day. Or maybe it made you remember a special time in your life. I'd love to hear your little black dress stories. So you can text the programme. The number is 84844 and text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at Woman's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. Now data charges may apply depending on your provider so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. And terms and conditions can be found on our website. But first up this morning, a new study has suggested that women who take hormone replacement therapy, or HRT, to relieve their menopause symptoms may increase their risk of dementia.

Now, scientists at Copenhagen University found that women who had taken HRT were 24% more likely to get dementia or Alzheimer's disease than women of the same age and background who did not use the treatment. But other researchers have come out and said that the cognitive declines may not have been due to the treatment. So what does this mean if you're a woman taking HRT? It must be incredibly confusing. So joining me now are Professor Pauline Mackey from the University of Illinois at Chicago.

She's conducted research on menopause and the brain for over 25 years and also Dr. Nelson Porhardi from the Danish Dementia Research Center. He's the lead researcher on that study there. So Dr. Porhardi, I'd like to start with you first of all because we'd like to understand properly what this study is all about. What were you looking for and what were the results you found well first of all thank you for having me and nice to meet you all we have a we had a two-sided aim of conducting this study first of all we wanted to to look at the association between hormone therapy and dementia in a younger population of women. That would be a population of women that used hormone therapy around the age of menopause,

which is an understudied research area. So that was the first aim. And the second part was to differ between different types of hormone therapy especially um especially to differentiate between cyclic menopausal hormone therapy treatment regimens and continuous treatment regimens that is different types of of approaches to what was found after you did that so we found that in women using hormone therapy around the age of menopause we found an increased rate of dementia among those women and and that is the the major finding of of the study And second, we also found that the rates of dementia were quite similar between the two types

of menopausal hormone therapy treatment. Okay, so no matter what hormone treatment you were taking, it still had an effect. But you're not, let me just be clear for people who are listening, you're not saying that necessarily taking HRT does cause dementia, are you? No, that's not what I'm saying. So do you know if it was related to the drug, or could it just be that those women would naturally have suffered from dementia anyway?

Well, the study is of an observational design. So by design, we cannot determine the causal relationship between the exposure and outcome. So we cannot say that on the basis of this study, that the hormone therapy led to the increased risk of dementia. It could also have been an underlying predisposition to both the symptoms leading to hormone therapy and to developing dementia at the same time. So we cannot differ between those two explanations. Okay, okay. Professor Mackey, I'd like to bring you in now because your speciality is the brain and menopause. Should women be worried about taking HRT after this? I think not. I think it's important to continue to conduct research studies in this area and

the Daner study had some really strong advantages of having large numbers of women participating. But as was just said, we really need to guide our medical decision making on the best quality of evidence about hormone therapy in the brain. And that comes from randomized trials. And so in an observational study like the one that was just published, while it's interesting, it does not adjust causality. So women are guided in their decision-making about hormone therapy based primarily on randomized trials. And here, this is very reassuring for women. So there are three large randomized trials, and here this is very reassuring for women. So there are three large randomized

trials on cognition, so memory, concentration, and the like, in younger postmenopausal women. All of them show the same reliable signal that hormone therapy is safe for the brain when used at that age. I think women should feel very reassured by those findings, especially since one of those studies was conducted in the very same cohort of women that gave rise initially to concerns about hormone therapy and cognition. And that study was done in older women. So in other words, the same cohort study showed some concerns for older women that did not pertain to the younger postmenopausal women. But surely you can understand that listeners hearing this today or someone picking up the paper this morning could be very confused because the headline says that, you know, HRT is related to an increase in dementia. And then there's also studies that

say it could actually help your cognitive processes. So where do women stand now? How possibly can they access the help they need? It must be very worrying for them. It's a very confusing landscape for women because menopause is a universal experience for women who go into late life. Hot flashes, as you say here in the UK, are experienced by more than 80% of women and they decrease women's quality of life. They disturb their sleep. It can affect their cognitive function. And in our work, we've actually measured these hot flashes objectively using these ambulatory skin conductance monitors. And we show that the more hot flashes a woman has, the worse her memory, the worse the functioning

of her brain in areas of the brain that subserve cognitive function and the like. So yes, women want these symptoms treated and they don't want to paradoxically increase their risk of dementia by treating the various symptoms that might lead to their memory problems. So what are they to do? Well, hormone replacement therapy is the gold standard treatment for vasomotor symptoms, for hot flushes and for night sweats. It takes away about 90% of those symptoms. And women should feel reassured based on medical guidelines. Here in the United Kingdom. You have the NICE guidelines and they provide reassurance to women based on the randomized clinical trials that short-term use of hormone therapy when indicated for, meaning when used for those hot flushes, really does make sense for most women.

Okay, thank you. Dr. Pahadi, what do you say to that, that HRT should still be used for most women? Well, first of all, I want to highlight that the association that we find between hormone therapy and dementia, it's not occurring immediately after taking hormone therapy. Actually, the median duration between the first prescription of hormone therapy and the dementia diagnosis was 18 years. So that is reoccurring in that sense that women could not be worried that it is, first of all, that it is, it could be very well be that it's not a causal effect and it's definitely not an immediate effect. So in that sense, women should not be concerned. But hormone therapy is a pharmaceutical

treatment. And like any other pharmaceutical treatment, it has side effects and the benefits have to outweigh those potential side effects. And this is an individual assessment between the woman and the consulting doctor. So my question is, and I'm sure it will be on the minds of many people listening this morning, what surely more research needs to be done to find out the cause of these things? Because knowing this headline and the response to it is not really very helpful to anybody who's currently in the situation and needs help with their menopause. Surely more, yeah. Sorry, go on. Dr. Pohadi, then I'll come to you, Professor Mackey, afterwards.

Surely more research indeed needs to be conducted in this area. And this study, I think it highlights that we need more study. And we also call for future studies to investigate the potential link between hormone therapy and dementia or the condition, the potential predisposition in the women that have vasomotor symptoms that require hormone therapy and the link between that and dementia. Okay. And Professor Mackey, you wanted to come in on that? have a single randomized trial of the effects of hormone therapy on memory and dementia risk in women who have a lot of vasomotor symptoms and women who have a lot of hot flushes. So the very women who are told they can use this treatment, we don't have the good studies on memory outcomes in those women. So I would say that's a key priority. But generally speaking, I do think that these kinds of studies point to the general consensus among scientists that

hormone therapy should not be used outside of the treatment of vasomotor symptoms to prevent dementia there just isn't the evidence for what for the use of hormone therapy for the primary you know let's not get alzheimer's disease approach the evidence just isn't there but for women with vasomotor symptoms okay it shouldn't be used for that. And Dr. Puhadi, what do you say to that? Because how has your research pushed things forwards along that line? I didn't quite hear the last part. So the HRT shouldn't be used for cognitive problems,

it should be used for menopause but from your study that you've done, obviously over the last 20 years, what has the study shown that can push things forward to help us find out more? Well, first of all, I completely agree that HRT hormone therapy should only be used for moderate to severe vasomotor symptoms and not to treat cognitive decline or memory problems, and certainly not to prevent dementia. But this study, I think, it helps. It addresses an overlooked aspect of hormone therapy and the association with dementia,

and that is the use around the age of menopause. Previously, many women used hormone therapy in older ages, and it was found that that increased the risk of cancer and cardiovascular disease. So current recommendations state that the use of hormone therapy should be as close to the menopause as possible and also for a short duration, the shortest duration possible to alleviate the symptoms. And there is a lot, there is lacking literature within this area that would be for women exposed in that clinically relevant period. And this is exactly what this study addresses. And although it cannot differ between hormone therapy and the underlying physiology that is behind face or motor symptoms cannot differ between the exposure and the underlying physiology.

But it brings attention to research, to address research questions that are relevant to contemporary clinical practice, which is to treat women close to the menopause for as short a duration as possible, and for women and for women only. Your study has shown that there is an increased risk, I think 74% increased risk if you're taking HRT for over 12 years. So, you know, that kind of highlights what you're saying about the short-term effect. It seems to have benefits, but longer term are where the risks increase. Is that right? Well, it is known that the longer you you take hormone therapy the the

the the the risk of adverse outcomes increase but i should note once again that it's not certain that it's a causal relationship that women who took hormone therapy for a long time that they had a higher risk of dementia it's not it's not necessarily because of the hormone therapy for a long time that they had a higher risk of dementia it's not it's not necessarily because of the hormone therapy yeah okay that's understood and of course that they're obviously getting older during that time as well and professor mackie what would you say to that and and and is this so worrying do you think because seeing headlines like this can worry a lot a lot of women who are even thinking about it is the worry that it could put them off taking hrt when actually their their their life is beginning to get unbearable with the symptoms of the menopause. That is indeed the concern and that's why we need to reassure women of the safety of hormone therapy

during that period of their life. The last comment I would make is that the study did not address the effects of estrogen alone, right? This was looking at combination estrogen plus progesterone. And the effects of estrogen alone versus estrogen plus the progestin appear to be quite different for the brain with estrogen alone being much safer. Thank you very much. Thank you, Professor Pauline Mackey and Dr. Nelson Porhardi. Thank you. And we would say, of course, if you do have any concerns about being on HRT or any questions, you can always speak to your GP. But thank you very much for that. A few of you have been contacting us on the website and through text here. Someone's called in to say, I'm in my 70s and I've never taken HRT. i have always regarded

it as a mass experiment it amazes me that people are so carefree about putting a powerful substance into their bodies with no idea what the long-term effects might be that's from julia and of course other people saying that it is it's been a lifeline for them so please keep those coming in but for now we're going to move to a very different topic of conversation this morning. Have you ever watched WWE? It's professional wrestling and it's fastly becoming one of the most watched entertainments in the world. And WWE broadcasts huge wrestling events across the world involving both men and women. Professional wrestling, for those of you who don't know, it's the dramatic enactment of wrestling as a sport. And this weekend, the O2 in London is the place to be because tomorrow they're hosting the World Smackdown events

and on Saturday, it's Money in the Bank. It's professional wrestling at its peak and it features both male and female wrestlers, including the incredible Rhea Ripley. Now, Rhea is the current WWE Women's World Champion, and she's had a meteoric rise to the top. She's known for being ultra aggressive, terrifyingly strong, and the female equivalent of The Rock. And she joins me now. I'm not too scared because she's down the line on Zoom, but it is lovely to see you, Rhea. Now, I've seen you wrestle women and wrestle men alike,

sometimes twice your size. You literally pick them up in the air and plonk them back down again. It is phenomenal. But for those of our listeners who might not know much about WWE, can you explain what it is and how you first came to get involved? Hi. Yeah, WWE is World Wrestling Entertainment, and pretty much it's a very theatrical thing that you get to see and you get to watch and you get mesmerised by it. It's got the violence, it's got the romance,

it's got everything that you want in a movie per se, but it's in real time, in real life and it's live on tv um so we really do um pull you in and engage you and you get excited watching it you follow along in the storylines um and you get to see myself and the judgment day do what we do best and that's take over the wwe and put everyone in their place and it is incredibly exciting to watch it's credibly energetic it is like watching a movie as you say and but how did you get into it how did because it's not i mean i won't say it's not a normal thing it's not something that you come across in the playground every day so how did that happen for you

yeah it's definitely um not a normal thing thing to follow and pursue in your life. But I guess I watched it when I was younger. We had some family friends that introduced me to wrestling. And my first thing that I ever watched was Triple H versus Ric Flair, which is wild because I've wrestled Ric Flair's daughter and Triple H is now my boss. But it sort of just like it captivated me in such a way where I was so intrigued by it and I just I wanted more like I wanted to watch more but I lived in

Australia um I'm originally from Adelaide South Australia so it was very difficult for me to watch WWE growing up because I was a very sporty kid so it was always on the weekends when I was playing soccer or whatever I was deciding to do at that time um but once we got like Foxtel I started recording it and I started watching it more and then we stumbled across a independent wrestling company in uh at uh in Queensland Australia sorry and um I didn't know that there was wrestling in Australia. I didn't know anything about the independent scene at all. But I was very excited and I went to my first show there. And once I got home back to Adelaide, South Australia,

I just, I had to find an independent company there. That's when I stumbled across Riot City Wrestling. And I just, I fell in love with it, with the first sight of just watching WWE and I've always been someone that likes a good challenge and I like to prove people wrong so as soon as someone said that like I would never be able to be a WWE superstar I was like you know what I'm gonna try my best and I think I I'm just going to dedicate myself to wrestling in general and see how far I can get. Really? Was that something that was said to you?

Were you told you couldn't be? And why was that? Because you're a woman or why? I think just in general. I know that most of it was probably because I was a woman. I mean, I was a sporty kid, but I was a lot smaller than what I am now. But just like friends, family family they didn't really see the excitement in it that I did and they just didn't really understand my love for um WWE and sports entertainment in general and they just they wanted me to follow

into something else like they wanted me to continue with my soccer they wanted me to continue with my school work and try and find a normal sort of job that's interesting that that's more acceptable isn't it because I think a lot of people still see wrestling as very much a man's world so how have you found being a woman in wrestling and did you have to fight literally like literally fight for that position? Yeah, I mean, we're constantly fighting for our position in the company and in everyone's eyes as well that watches the product. The women's division in the WWE has come such a long way from when I first started watching it. It's definitely grown and progressed and we are getting more opportunities

that we didn't get before. And it's really, it's honestly really, really cool to see the drastic changes that have been happening because before, back when I was watching it and before I was watching it, it was like, the women were sort of like a spectacle. Like we were doing the bras and panties matches, the mud wrestling. I remember watching it it was like the women were sort of like a spectacle like we were doing the bras and panties matches, the mud wrestling. I remember

watching it in the 90s because my friend was a massive fan and it was sort of, the women were like the girlfriends or the wives of the wrestlers and they were very much on the outside cheering but they weren't taking part. Now you are very much centre ring and so it looks like you have equal playing field

there but has that resonated with the rest of the industry I mean do you have equal pay are you given equal airtime and resources um yeah yeah I mean everything is I want to say fairly equal I don't know exactly with the pay like what the others are getting and all that like it's very confidential um so I can't really talk too much on that subject but like when it comes to tv time and screen time the women are definitely getting more opportunities I do believe that we should be getting a little bit more tv time but someone like myself I feel like because the position that I'm in I get to go out there and I do get to have matches with the other women and then I also get to go out there and I do get to have matches with the other women and then I also

get to go out there with my Judgment Day members which are a part of the men's division so for me my Mondays are very very crazy and I'm honestly on the entire show of Monday Night Raw from start to finish but I do believe that us women should get more airtime and more TV time when it does come to matches. And that's something that we're constantly fighting for. But it being a live product, there's a lot of changes that go on backstage that people don't really understand. And to be quite honest, like a lot of us don't understand as well because it's the business side of things. And you've been pushing that, obviously. I mean, you're not just a woman in wrestling,

you're arguably the woman in wrestling, especially in the UK at the moment. So has that been tough for you? Have you had to drive a lot of that? I mean, this business is always tough, but it's something that I love. And I feel like when you love something, you don't stop and you just persevere and you stay dedicated no matter how hard it is. It's wild to see not only the growth of the women's's division but my growth in this company I did start my WWE career here in the UK for NXT UK and now I'm here for Raw and

I'm the Women's World Champion you know so it's definitely been a crazy journey and I honestly I wouldn't change anything about it I would keep all the struggles and all the hardships and all the people that doubted me because if I feel like if I didn't have that I wouldn't be where I am and and that's something that I really stand by I love proving people wrong and I love yeah I can tell I can tell and when you talk about I mean being involved in and everything what what it what is that for the listeners who don't understand? And how big a deal is that for you? Oh, it's a massive deal.

WWE Raw has been on TV for a very, very long time. And it's the one place, like WWE in general, is the one place that I want to say most independent wrestlers they want to get to like they want to get to the WWE they want to go through NXT and then make it to Raw and Smackdown uh Raw being on the USA network in um the USA and then and Smackdown being in the UK here yeah yeah and of course on Saturday so so what can people expect from the event on Saturday? Oh, they can expect the judgment day to take over everything.

I'm already walking out the Women's World Champion. My boys, they're going to take everything that they can. Damien Priest is going to win the money in the bank. Finn Balor is going to take that heavyweight championship.

And I can see you're already psyched for it. You've got your medals behind you. You've got your belts ready to go. Honestly, Rhea, good luck. And thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. It's been lovely to speak to you and good luck this weekend. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Now, lots of you have been getting in touch about our topic this morning, about the little black dress. So many of you have found that it's been pivotal in your life and here's one that says um i have a black chanel and little black dress which belonged to my mother she was an in-store model in browns of chester and was able to buy some of the dresses she wore around the store i wore it in 1980 and now my daughter wears it 30 years on including at my mother's funeral in 2013 that's from joe thank you very much joe what a lovely story and this one says i had a little black cashmere dress that I'd saved up for, which was the bell of my wardrobe. When I moved in with my then boyfriend, he confused my

packing and threw my little black dress into the charity shop hall. I never got it back, but I married him. So it's not all about end to the story. Oh, honestly, but I am devastated for you. Thank you very much, Bronnie. That's to the story. Oh, honestly, but I am devastated for you. Thank you very much, Bronnie. That's a wonderful story. And I'll probably get to some more later on. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. But first of all, I want to introduce you to my next guest, because over the weekend, my next guest, Siobhan McDonagh, Labour MP for Mitcham and Morden in South London, announced the death of her dearly loved sister, Margaret McDonagh. I'm going to read a quote from her that she announced this weekend because it's incredibly moving. She says, this morning, my extraordinary sister peacefully passed away at home, surrounded by friends who loved her.

She was the first female, the youngest, and the most successful Labour General Secretary in history. She was kind, generous, and brave. I loved her with all my heart. Well, Baroness Macdonald of Mitcham and Morden, as Margaret Macdonald became, was a key figure in the Labour Party under Sir Tony Blair's leadership and played a central role in the 1997 and 2001 Labour general election victories.

But tributes have come in from across the party divide. Conservative peer Daniel Finkelstein, part of the team that lost to Labour at the time, says we should pause and listen because Margaret Macdonagh was excellent. She was one of this country's great political organisers, certainly one of the greatest of the past 40 years. Well, Margaret was only 61 when glioblastoma, which is a type of brain tumour, caused her death. And her sister Siobhan believes the NHS abandoned her and abandons others like her who are diagnosed with glioblastoma every year. Well, Siobhan, thank you so much for coming in so closely to your sister's death on Saturday.

And I know that you wanted to come in and speak to us because you want to keep pushing the work she did and the change she wants. So thank you. But firstly, can I say how sorry I am about your sister? And we wanted to give you our condolences and ask, first of all, how are you? I'm OK. It's a bit unreal just at the moment because obviously we're organising the funeral. And I'm very lucky. I've got lots of great friends who come round every night and cook me a meal and we have a glass of wine. I know that in comparison to a lot of people in similar situations, I'm very fortunate. But it's also incredibly hard for you. I can see you tearing up as we're speaking. But I'm also aware that listeners won't necessarily have heard of all the work that your sister did, because largely it was behind the scenes, wasn't it? Could you explain to me about her job and why you think she was the most

successful Labour General Secretary in history? Right. Margaret wasn't really interested in the glory or the front stage. She very much wanted to be behind the stage. She wanted to run to organise successful elections. She joined the Labour Party at 17. Her first experience of a general election was in 1979, obviously, which saw Labour lose and Mrs Thatcher come to power. And she fought every general election after that. She got the job she loved in the London Labour Party in the mid 80s. So she could come back to live with me so we could fight the election in 87 when I first became the candidate in Mitcham and Morton. That must have been such a special time for you. I know how difficult it must be talking about that because you were together and you were together for so much of your careers and your life, weren't you?

In fact, you lived together until the end. General Secretary of the Labour Party is like head of the paid staff, like the chief civil servant or a chief executive or maybe a chief operating officer of a company. So while Tony Blair was the leader of the party or Keir Starmer now, she would run the organisation. and her biggest ambition was to organise two consecutive general elections which led to full-term Labour governments. So that would mean eight or ten years and it was so extraordinary because it's the only time in British history that it has ever happened. And she did that. And she did it.

She was the force behind that. Absolutely remarkable. And I know you wanted to speak about this now, so soon after your sister has died, because you want to use this time to push for change and the differences she wanted to make. Can you tell me a bit about what you think your sister would have wanted now? of glioblastoma brain tumours than I am now. And there is no infrastructure. There has been no improvement in this treatment for these tumours since in the last 30 years and no improvement in outcomes. 3,200 people will be diagnosed this year with a glioblastoma. And that's the lucky ones who do actually get to diagnosis before they die. They will have varying levels of life expectancy but on average

it's nine months. After the death of the great Tessa Jow um the government announced 40 million for research it has only managed to spend 15 because there are simply no bids because there's nobody out there doing this work um at the moment uh when you become an oncologist a kind of senior doctor in cancer care you don't have to do any studies on brain tumours and the pharmaceutical companies clearly concentrate on the big cancers those that involve the big numbers so there is no real incentive for them to do work in this area so if there's no training no doctors no financial incentive nothing is happening and nobody is going to have a improved life expectancy and certainly not a cure and i know you said in the house of commons debate on brain tumour research earlier this year that you feel margaret was abandoned by the nhs and and you felt that others with the same diagnosis were too.

What did you mean by that? Well, the treatment of glioblastoma, the care pathway, if you like, is eight weeks of radiotherapy followed by as much chemotherapy as you're able to take. Now, in Margaret's case, she wasn't able to take very much of it. Her kidneys gave way. At that point, there is nothing available on the NHS. There are hardly any drug trials. So at that point, you are left on your own. Do you take your loved one home to die? Or do you attempt to see if there's any other sort of treatment anywhere in the world? And that requires money. And for lots of people, they're not going to have those funds.

And, you know, for many, if you look at the Just Giving websites, if you look at crowdfunding, there are people out there with desperately ill friends and family who are also spending their time trying to raise money to go to Germany, Eastern Europe, Israel or America for some hope of a treatment that will extend their life expectancy. And I think most people would think, and certainly my mum who came over in 1947 from Ireland to train as that first generation of nurses, would expect that the NHS would do a better job. And obviously you've been supporting and guiding your sister through that as well as having a full-time job yourself how difficult was that for you? I suppose I'll only be able to answer that question in the future at the time you know how it is you get on with things don't you and she would never have wanted me to give up my job and sometimes when difficult things are happening to you in your private life you know your work is um it distracts you it may gives you energy to do other things so um yeah I mean I wouldn't have done it any other way. I can see that well we told the Department of Health and

Social Care that you will be talking to us today about the need for more research and to get better treatment and they gave us this response. They've said, our condolences go out to Baroness McDonagh's family and friends. Brain cancer can be a devastating disease, which is why we've specifically allocated 40 million for research in this area

on top of the 1 billion pounds a year for wider health research. We've invested in every suitable application made and the funding will continue to be available for further studies to develop new treatments and therapies for brain tumours. To encourage further successful applications we are investing in infrastructure workshops for research training for clinicians. So they do say they're allocating a quarter of the money specially set aside to boost brain cancer research. Some would say that is reasonable progress.

What do you say to that? There is a reason why they haven't been able to spend that money because it was their target to spend it before now and that is because there is no infrastructure. If you're not training the oncologists, if you're not getting the people there who, like my sister's oncologist, Paul Mulholland at UCLH, was absolutely driven to find a cure.

If you haven't got that army of people, how do you get the bids to claim the money? So really, you know, Will Quince, who is the minister who's responsible for this area of policy, I challenged him. He's standing down at the next election. He has a year, 18 months. He can make a difference if he wants, but he has to stand up to the establishment. He has to stand up to the Royal College of Physicians and say, no, there should be proper training in brain tumours and glioblastoma for oncologists. She's got to say to the pharmaceutical companies,

you get your licences for the big tumour drugs, try them on brain tumours. Because without trying what's there, we are not going to get a cure in the next 50 years, the next 60 years, the next century. Your tweet on Saturday was so emotional when you announced your sister's death. It was a very moving expression of profound sibling love, actually. You said, I love her with all my heart. And I know you've always lived together. Can you describe

your relationship and what she meant to you? I suppose you live your life and you expect that other people live the same sort of life. so it is not unusual or extraordinary to me um you know we were brought up in an irish working class family and family came first and responsibility to your family came first so in our house we had a whole stream of aunts and uncles down on their luck mental health problems problems, problems with drink, because that is a feature of kind of those generations, or just physically unwell. So we just saw from our mum and dad that you have a responsibility for one another. They had an amazing work ethic. You know, if you saw my dad age 70, going out to work on the buildings and being blue with cold, you would completely understand why Margaret is as driven as she is. You know, we were confident, difficult women because we were brought up with great confidence, support and love.

And you cared for her at the end and she did die at home. Do you feel there's enough support for for carers for people in this situation you know no matter what disease they're suffering from? I think that we have people who are just extraordinarily brave people and are heroes that care for their relatives and their friends and seek for them to die at home for us it wasn't the same challenge because we had ensured that our mum and dad died at home. And, you know, the Irish are quite into death and dying. It's not culturally so different for us. So, and, you know, we were also,

we have a wonderful carer for Margaret called Mark and our cousin Kevin helped us. And we have a great army of very strong women who were there our cousin Kathleen came over from Ireland Margaret's friend from school Moira came to be with her so there wasn't a moment I mean we we fought for Margaret to get into intensive care at St George's and then we fought for to get her out so hats off to ICU at St George's we must have been very difficult people to deal with and you fought along the whole experience of this really yeah I think Jess Phillips said that together you were unstoppable you and your sister you must miss her dearly and I can see that your fight for her

is still going on yeah um I suppose I don't understand right now how I feel because it's all a bit unreal um we're arranging her funeral at the moment and it's just so hard to believe she's not gonna to be here. I bet. And I know that lots of people listening will resonate with that and our thoughts and love go out to you. And thank you so much for coming and talking to us about it this morning. It's been very special. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. Thank you. And we will be continuing to keep in contact with Siobhan

and about her fight as this goes on. So thank you very much for joining us. Now, moving on this morning, next week is the start of Wimbledon. And at the moment, players are going through qualifiers with tournament matches starting on Monday, the 3rd of July.

So how has women's tennis progressed recently? Last week marked the 50th anniversary of the creation of the Women's Tennis Association, also known as the WTA. It was established by Billie Jean King in 1973 and after a meeting in London of 60 of the world's best female tennis players at the time. It's thanks to her we have the women's tennis we see today. And Krupa recently spoke to Sue Barker, who has both played at Wimbledon and been the presenter of BBC TV coverage for three decades before stepping down last year. Well, Krupa asked Sue if she thinks women's tennis has improved since she herself was playing in the 1970s and 1980s.

Oh, massively. I mean, it was such a privilege to be around at that time and to see Billie Jean King in full flow. She took so many risks. And I know because having asked her, in some ways ruined her career. She would have won many more Grand Slam titles if she hadn't been so driven to make changes. Yes, she admits it. She says it herself, I would have won many, many more. So by speaking out? Yeah. And by, you know, going and challenging people to make a difference. And she was doing it during tournaments, you know, so she wasn't concentrating on just playing tennis. She was, you know, going and talking to people and trying to make change, not just as far as equality for women, but everything racial. I mean, she is just the most inspirational person I've ever met.

And I'm proud to call her a friend, but also still a mentor. Very much last year when I was leaving the BBC, she was, you know, we talked so much about it and all the things. She's such a wise person and she's made so many changes. But what she did, making all those sacrifices back in the 70s, it wasn't a quick fix. A lot of people say, oh, well, she won the Battle of the Sexes and then women's tennis took off. It didn't. She started it in 1970. 1973 was the Battle of the Sexes against Bobby Riggs, which she won, which did change the whole conception of women's sport.

But it wasn't really until 75 that women's tennis was. We were playing in little country clubs in the early 70s. By 1975, we were filling out Madison Square Garden. I mean, we had Chrissie and Martina and Yvonne Goulagong and Billie and Margaret Court and Virginia White. I mean, it was just such a wonderful era for women's tennis. And the public wanted it, you know. But it took her years and years to do that. And then, you know, equal prize money it took her years and years to do that. And then,

you know, equal prize money didn't come until many, many years later, but she's still fighting. Sue Barker there talking to Krupa. And you can hear that full interview in which she talks about her leaving a question of sports and why she banned her father from coming to her tennis matches. Head to BBC Sounds and it's the Woman's Hour episode of the 9th of June. Now, lots of you are getting in touch about your little black dress. I just want to read a few of them out because there's some fantastic stories. This one is from Pat, and she says, In 1963, I was invited to go to a university ball with another student who didn't have a partner. I jumped at the chance, and mum and I went to our local shop to buy a little black dress,

which I felt a million dollars in. I ended up marrying my date and we are still celebrating and I still have the dress. It was a bargain at four pound. Thanks so much Pat. But this one from Jan in Devon. I had my only LBD at age 18. I hated it and I've never had another one since. So there you go, mixed reviews from the little black dress but thank you so much and keep those coming in. Now the iconic little black dress of course has been a feature of many women's wardrobes over the years. I think I've had one for every decade of my life. They're just that reliable outfit that you feel great in and so maybe you have one and you still wear it. How does it make you feel? I'd love

to hear your stories, keep them coming in and we're talking about this because the National Museum of Scotland opens an exhibition this weekend called Beyond the Little Black Dress. It's exploring the evolution of the LBD and its relationship with female liberation since it came on the scene almost 100 years ago now. So I'm joined now by the principal curator,

Georgina Ripley. Georgina, thank you so much for coming on the show. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Now, I think we all have an iconic little black dress in our minds when we talk about this, whether it's the Princess Diana in the revenge dress, Liz Hurley with her Versace safety pin number or Posh Spice. But what is the history of the little black dress and why did you decide to look into that specifically?

Well, I think you've really named some of the most famous ones there. We chose to look at this because really we're using it as a garment through which we can view a hundred years of social change. So there's this sort of mythic invention of it in 1926 with a design by Coco Chanel and it was kind of happened upon as the frock that all the world will wear. That was something that American Vogue said about it. So we are looking really at nearly a century. And the importance of that really currently is there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between the 2020s and the 1920s. We feel that we're living through tumultuous times. You know, we are post-pandemic. They were in the 1920s post the flu.

You know, they were post-war. We're also going through an economic upheaval. So there's a lot of parallels to be found. So it's a really good opportunity for us to look at 100 years of social change. And so when looking back over those years, which you have done extensively, what can we learn about the political and cultural context of the time in relation to women? Well, I think the little black dress, particularly in its starkness, it really does hold up a mirror to society. You can watch the evolution of that silhouette. And so, for example, it really shows you the influence of the women's suffrage movement and that liberation for women in the

1920s with that invention of chanel's dress which is reflecting that greater modernization that's happening within 20s fashion at the time it's borrowing some of the comfort and functionality that you see in menswear it has these shorter hemlines this straighter more androgynous silhouette and that really reflects this greater participation of women in urban life. And also projected onto that dress, you also see social anxiety surrounding this shift within the gender relations and these shifting power structures. And you see that again later on with the influence of the women's movement in the 60s and the 70s. And so throughout this 100 years, all of these sorts of nuances are really projected onto that garment. It's incredibly interesting. And it seems to have gone over

so many decades and years and so many cultures as well. In fact, I've just had a text this moment from my mother-in-law, who says, I've still got my original Ozzie Clark little black dress, I'll never give it up. So there you go. It definitely is something that relates to lots of people. Do all the cultures in the world have an equivalent fashion staple to this or can they tell a similar story? It's a really interesting question because I think what we don't necessarily always realise is that the LBD is very much a Western phenomenon. But there are equivalent garments elsewhere. So we show one in the exhibition. We've had a reproduction qipao made by a tailor in Beijing, and it dates, it replicates a date, one that dates from the 1920s. And what that garment does within China at that time is reflect

that same crucial period of modernization. It follows the end of the Qing dynasty, and it's this garment that draws its influences from the male robes worn by the literati. So it's like Chanel's dress, it's really borrowing from menswear and it's seen as this equal status uh bit sorry this bid to kind of claim equal status with men and so in that regard it attracts the same sort of criticisms that these changing fashion encapsulated by chanel's lbd in the west attracts as well so there is a correlation to be drawn that cheap i would not necessarily have been black but what that garment does is reflect all of those sort of same, I suppose, challenges that women are facing.

And you talk about the 60s there and that sort of relevance to changing attitudes of sex over the years. Do you think it is associated with power dressing? You know, is it something, do you put on the little black dress thinking, I'm going to stand up for my rights today? Is there something going on there? There certainly is I think there's also very much this kind of erotic and provocative association that we have with black and particularly within the 1980s you see the introduction of kind of signifiers of fetish wear appearing in high

fashion and those exist as this sort of subtext to power dressing. But it incites really interesting debates around whether or not this sort of much more sexualised way of dressing is actually objectifying or degrading women or whether it's actually empowering for women. And that's something that was picked up on latterly as well. Post Me Too, we have a dress on display by Scottish designer Christopher Kane, which really draws on this sort of sensual fashion play

that has existed at the end of the 20th century, but it's doing so within this context, you know, post-MeToo, within this very sort of sex-centric zeitgeist, and really does tie into current debates around feminism. So how are women currently wearing the little black dress? You know, how is it relevant today and now and is it still relevant today and now it's a good question it's one that we do pose at the end of the exhibition because you know it was once governed by such strict codes of etiquette that just don't exist now we don't have those same dress codes but i think one of the most powerful sources of sustainability is ideas that stand the

test of time and the climate crisis the environment these are all huge concerns are particularly relevant to fashion and the little black dress is really a keystone of slow fashion it is something that we see as existing as part of a capsule wardrobe and in that regard I think it does have potential to continue being a part of a wardrobe in future. And for me I mean I didn't look into it as deeply as you do, but for me, it's just the guarantee go-to. You know, it's like ordering a Caesar salad on the menu. You know, it will just fit in anywhere and you'll be OK. But have you found it's more than that? Or for some women, is it just that it's simple and effective?

It's both of those things. I think the duality that exists within the colour black. Also, you can apply this garment to some people. They like it because they feel it blends in. It them almost invisible it's something that makes them feel comfortable but for others it's a blank canvas onto which they can project identity and they can really use it as this sort of foil to persona so we have a piece on loan from american designer christian siriano that was worn by jonathan van ness and it really subverts that idea of the little black dress as being this sort of safe understated garment and I think really its appeal is that it can be all things to all people just depends on how you see it from your own personal viewpoint. It's interesting you bring up invisibility

there because we talk on Women's Hour so much about women standing up for their rights women shouting to be heard but sometimes women do want to be invisible and and it's it's funny that you say you know they can use clothing to do that and that's sometimes okay yeah it is and we have a little section of the exhibition um dedicated to the royals because there's a lot of communicating of messaging that happens within the dress of of the royal family and there's a few royal style icons featured particularly wallace duchess of windsor and princess margaret who were both known for wearing little black dresses and we sort of had this idea that the royal family don't wear black but what's also really interesting we have a dress unknown

from the fashion museum of bath which is the dress that megan markle chose for her interview with oprah winfrey and she also wore a lot of black and she was once quoted as saying that she actually did that because again it is that it's that sort of safer choice you almost sort of can't go wrong and there's a feeling that you're always going to be appropriate for the occasion in it. I'm just going to read you a few of the comments that we've had in because lots of people are getting in contact about this it's something that resonates with them and this one says hi woman's hour I have about 10 little black dresses my absolute favorite is one I've had for 20 years. I went out shopping to buy something cheap and cheerful for a hen do and ended up spending way more than I could afford on the perfect black dress.

But I still love it and I've worn it for years. This one is from Fiona. She says, my first little black dress was by Mary Quant in the late 60s. Very mini with a white collar. Gosh, I can imagine that. I was 17 and truly felt i'd stepped over the threshold i wish i still had it no idea what happened to it so she says take note everybody hold on to the clothes that mean something to you um and this one here says my nana gave me her fabulous 1940s little black dress when i was 20 i often wear it notably for my phd graduation age 60 and i shall give it to my granddaughters.

So there you go. There's lots of people saying that clothes are important to them. They're either keeping them or they're telling other people to keep them if they've lost them. Yeah, indeed. I think clothing has this really kind of deep emotional resonance. And getting your first little black dress is a rite of passage for many. But it is also I think it's great that people can hand it down and then in that sense that's one of the other really amazing things about the LBD is that it responds to you and it absorbs trends but it also transcends them and so it is something that you can hand down and definitely everyone should keep them you know we work in museums and this is how we get to build our collections if one day you want to look for a perfect home uh for your most important garments

then thank you thank you Regina Ripley we will thank you very much for joining us I just wanted before we go to read a couple of the condolences that you've sent in for my last guest and Siobhan McDonagh who was fantastic at talking about the achievements and life of her sister this one says my husband is 60 and has stage 4 diagnosis of glioblastoma. I agree that it seems to be a cancer that has been left behind in terms of research. Thank you, Woman's Hour, for giving this airtime. It's a very cruel disease and my condolences to Margaret's sister. And thank you so much to everybody else who sent in their well wishes. We shall definitely pass them on.

Well, it's been wonderful to have you with us. We are, of course, back tomorrow. I will be joined by Olivia Coleman as she tells me about using her acting skills as a good force, so don't miss that. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Jason Manford here. And I'm Steve Edge. We just wanted to tell you about our new podcast from Radio 4 on BBC Sounds, Best Men, it's called. And it's all about one of the most important jobs a fella can face in his lifetime, being a best man. We were each other's best men, weren't we? We'll be right back. And, crucially, those that have failed. Hearing some unbelievable stories of stag-do disasters, of speeches that have silenced the room,

and about friendships that were never quite the same afterwards. We'll also be trying to help those going through this particular trauma over the coming months, as well as exploring the importance of that special friendship between best man and the groom. And, hopefully, having a bit of a laugh along the way. It's a bit like a good wedding. You will not want to miss it. So give it a listen. And you can subscribe to Best Men right now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig,

the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.