Woman's Hour - Wrestling star Aleah James, Jackie Weaver, Indian farmers, Julia Kogan and nominations for the Golden Globes

Episode Date: February 5, 2021

Anita Rani talks to 23 year old wrestler Aleah James who was signed by WWE in the middle of lockdown. Normal try outs involve a rigorous selection process, with over 80 athletes, but Aleah bypassed th...is and was hired on the exceptional promise she showed. We hear from Mrs Weaver, Jackie Weaver, star of the parish council zoom row which has gone viral.Thousands of farmers in India have been protesting against new farming laws in India. As the protests grow women are now said to be increasingly taking a more prominent role. We hear from the BBC's South Asia Correspondent Rajini Vaidyanathan and from Usha Seethalakshmi from Makaam, a forum for Women's Farmers Rights in IndiaThe writer and opera singer Julia Kogan has just won a high court battle to be credited for her part in writing the script for the Oscar nominated film Florence Foster Jenkins, starring Meryl Streep and Hugh Grant. We talk to her and Dr. Daniela Simone, a Senior Lecturer at Macquarie University and an expert in copyright and collective authorship. And Hannah J Davies, the Guardian's Deputy TV Editor and film critic Anna Smith tell us about the Golden Globes Film awards later this month. The shortlist for best director has more women than men for the first time, but there's also been some surprise at who hasn't made it through.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Managers: Duncan Hannant and John Boland.

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.
Starting point is 00:00:42 BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi everybody, Anita here, welcoming you to today's Woman's Hour podcast. Morning all, nice to have you join me for Friday's Woman's Hour. How are you all coping at the moment? It's a tough one this lockdown, isn't it? Who's feeling the strain? Is the pressure getting to you? Well, the cracks definitely appeared during this local parish council Zoom meeting. Take a listen. We'll start the meeting and I want to repeat what I said at
Starting point is 00:01:12 the beginning of the last meeting, that this meeting has not been called according to the law. The law has been broken. It has been properly called. Will you please let the chairman speak? This is with you, please. If you disrupt this meeting, I will have to remove you from it. You can't. It's only the chairman who can remove people from a meeting. You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver. No authority at all. She's just kicked him out. No, she's kicked him out. Don't, don't. She's kicked him out. Don't. This is a meeting called by two councillors. Illegally. Who may now elect a chairman.
Starting point is 00:01:54 No, they can't because the vice chair's here. I take charge. Read the standing orders. Read them and understand them. It gets funnier the more you listen to it. I've listened to it about 27 times already. So I want to know if you've lost it this week. Are you at the end of your tether?
Starting point is 00:02:10 Can you relate to that Zoom meeting? How are you coping with the pressure? Are you taking a long walk or are you going for the classic, just screaming into your pillow? You can text Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Do check with your network provider for the exact costs. And of course, contact us via social media at BBC Woman's Hour
Starting point is 00:02:27 or email us through our website. And Maria Nicolaou has already tweeted to say, I'm going to pull a Jackie Weaver will become a phrase, just you watch. And world exclusive, Jackie Weaver will be joining us on the show a little bit later. Now, if I were to say easy, easy, easy, how many of you have been transported back to your mum and dad's sofa in the 80s
Starting point is 00:02:51 watching Giant Haystacks and Big Daddy? Well, wrestling has come a long way since then, and I'll be talking Smackdown in lockdown with WWE's latest recruit from Romford. Then staking your claim to a creative contribution. How many of you have been involved with an idea and got none of the credit? Well, I'll be talking to the woman who's won a landmark victory to get her name recognised
Starting point is 00:03:15 as the joint scriptwriter for the Meryl Streep film Florence Foster Jenkins. Now, there always seems to be some kind of controversy around award ceremonies these days, and the Golden Globes is following that trend. Yes, lots of female directors nominated, but social media has been spitting at the glaring omission of our very own Michaela Cole. All of that coming up. But first, tens of thousands of farmers across India have been protesting against new farming laws.
Starting point is 00:03:43 As the protests grow, women are now said to be increasingly taking a more prominent role. Now, you may have been following what's happening in India. You may not have. But to bring us up to speed, we're joined by the BBC South Asia correspondent, Rajini Vaidyanathan, and by Usha Sithalakshmi from MACAM, a forum for women's farmers' rights in India. Morning to you both.
Starting point is 00:04:03 Welcome to Women's Hour. Rajini, let's take it right back to the beginning. What are the farmers protesting about? So they're protesting against three farm laws that were passed last year, which they say they weren't consulted on. Now, in essence, the government's brought these laws in, they say, to modernise the agriculture sector in India.
Starting point is 00:04:23 So basically, dereggulate so it would allow farmers to sell directly to big business so online retailers supermarkets that kind of thing and they say that under these laws farmers will actually be better off in the long run and that farming does need to kind of move into a new future in India but the farmers believe something very different now one of the things I've been down to the protest site, which is on a road sort of on the border with Delhi and the state of Haryana, quite a few times and talking to farmers, one of their biggest concerns is over the prices they get for crops. So typically now they sell their crops via government regulated wholesale markets, which are called mandis. And they're guaranteed a minimum price for certain crops. So it's like
Starting point is 00:05:04 a safety net, if you like, Anita. And they're worried that under these new reforms, big businesses will come into the market and they'll be at the mercy of these big businesses. And in the long run, with market forces in play, those guaranteed minimum prices will be done away with. So they're asking for the government to write into law that these prices will stay and they want these three farm laws repealed. with. So they're asking for the government to write into law that these prices will stay and they want these three farm laws repealed. I mean, there are other things that concern them around the kind of storage of crops and that kind of thing. But the main thing people I've spoken to
Starting point is 00:05:34 are concerned about is the pricing, because they say when they lose their profits, they think they'll be taken over by big billionaires in India. And farmers have literally taken to the streets of Delhi to protest. Explain where these farmers have come from and just how big this protest is and how long it's been going on for as well. So it's quite surreal, actually, because they're basically camped out on a motorway, the NH44, I think it is, which takes you into Delhi. Now, it was sort of the end of November, I think, a big group of them started sort of advancing. They wanted to come into Delhi. And at the beginning of those protests, we saw some scenes of some farmers being tear gassed, that kind of thing.
Starting point is 00:06:11 But since then, they've been set up camp on the outskirts of Delhi. And it's been largely peaceful until last week. Of course, people may have seen those scenes where protesters clash with police. But in the main, it's been largely peaceful. And it's actually a very jovial community. I mean, basically, you've got tens of thousands of farmers who have come from the state of Haryana, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, all neighbouring states in North India, which is where I am speaking to you from as well, Anita. And they've set up this community. So you've got farmers sleeping on the back of trucks,
Starting point is 00:06:43 as many as sort of eight or nine of them. We've got blankets. It's freezing cold here, I should say. You know, it's a harsh winter. And also community kitchens as well. Lunga, which is, you know, serving food to the community for free. It's seen as service. And, you know, I've even seen people giving out toothbrushes, toothpaste, even a guy the other day, actually, Anita, who was giving shoes to people and a coat. So it's like a whole self-contained community. There's even a gym, but I didn't manage to spot that myself. So, you know, they're kind of in it for the long haul,
Starting point is 00:07:12 but they're prepared to stay as long as it takes. And of course, since we're on Women's Hour, it's worth, of course, noting that women are playing a much greater role in these protests too. Let me bring Seema in as well. Seema, can you explain why women in particular are fighting for farmers' rights? Hi, this is Usha here from ACAM.
Starting point is 00:07:34 Usha, sorry Usha. Yeah, yeah. One of the key reasons why women are there in large numbers and significant numbers in the protest is because they have a very, very significant stakes in the outcomes of this protest, primarily because despite the fact that, you know, the word farmer often invokes the idea of a male farmer. In fact, on the contrary, women actually form a significant part of the farming community in India.
Starting point is 00:08:07 More than 73% of the female workforce in rural areas in India depends on agriculture, as opposed to 55% men. So that in itself is an indication of the extent of women's involvement in agriculture. So they play a very, very significant role. And so Usha, what's the impact of these laws? What will the long-term impact be? What are the women saying to you? Okay, I speak as a representative of the Mahila Kisan Adhikar Manch. We are a national platform and we've been working for securing primarily recognition
Starting point is 00:08:48 for women as farmers in their own right, along with their rights and entitlements. And that is a position from which we speak from. In a context where women, despite their significant role and contribution in agriculture, they're not recognized as farmers in India because they primarily have no ownership over, legal ownership over land. Less than, you know, about 12% women control and own around 11% land in India. So in a context where women farmers already have pre-existing vulnerabilities about not being recognized as farmers, about not having ownership over land, about primarily, since they do not own land, they have no access to many of the government support services and schemes related to agriculture. So in that context, these three legislations will really have a far more disproportionate impact on them actually in future.
Starting point is 00:09:39 Some of the consequences following from these three legislations that Rajini's just touched upon are this. One, a large percentage of women are not literate. They are not really in any position to get into written contracts that the contract farming legislation really talks about now, which primarily gives legal backing to contract farming for the first time. And this is going to open the doors to a whole lot of players in the form of private corporate entities entering agriculture. And the idea is to get into written contracts before the beginning of the agriculture season. And these contracts could be about supply of seeds, fertilizers, about a certain agreed price for a certain agreed quantity and quality of crops. And these are not really,
Starting point is 00:10:27 you know, contracts that women can either understand or negotiate from an empowered position. They are really at no level playing ground. And then the most important part is about price. While it is true that a lot of the women farmers do not go to what Rajini right now referred to as the wholesale markets or the Mondays, a lot of them actually sell at Farmgate closer to their farms to small traders. But then the most important role that the government regulated markets actually do is about signaling fair prices, the minimum support price. And despite the fact that the government announces these only for one or two crops and actually ends up giving it to only one or two crops, even sale to private traders happens,
Starting point is 00:11:15 that becomes a benchmark at which women sell, you know. Usha, is it, I mean, India is a patriarchal country, but Punjab in particular, this region, this rural farming community is patriarchal. Is it unusual to see this rural community of women protesting? Should we be surprised? At one level, see, it's very important to understand the context about Punjab and Haryana, which primarily are large paddy, rice and wheat growing regions in India. And the markets in these two states, you know, are far more regulated by the government and farmers also, to a large extent,
Starting point is 00:12:01 end up getting minimum support price for their crops, actually. So the impact of these laws are going to be immediately felt in these states. It's not that they're not going to be felt across other states in India, but they're going to be far more increasingly felt on a sliding scale. These two states stand to lose far more, in fact. And that also means actually women are going to also be very, very disproportionately impacted. So they've marched with the men and joined the protests in Delhi in quite huge numbers. Rajini, just very quickly, just bring you back in on this, because this whole story took a bizarre twist this week, didn't it?
Starting point is 00:12:37 With two very influential Western women getting involved with tweets that have caused quite a stir, haven't they? Yeah, so so strange intervention. I didn't expect to say Rihanna and India farmers protest in the same sentence, but Rihanna tweeted saying, why isn't the issue getting more attention? And Greta Thunberg as well tweeted. What's been really quite interesting is the reaction that they've had in India.
Starting point is 00:13:02 A lot of nasty messages, a lot of trolling, as women often get on social media. But what was quite unusual as well is you had the Indian government saying, effectively, you know, keep out of this. I mean, they said, you know, social media hashtags can be sensationalized. And that the comments that Rihanna and Greta,
Starting point is 00:13:20 they didn't name them, but they were implying them, were neither accurate nor responsible. You even had niece of the US Vice President Kamala Harris, so Meena Harris, also tweeting that. But what was interesting is then you had Indian sports stars like Sachin Tendulkar, Virat Kohlu saying, basically, kind of keep your nose out of India's business. So yeah, it's taken on an international dimension. One really quick thing I wanted to say that struck me, Anita, is that the protesters, the women protesters I saw were actually quite elderly a lot of them and that really struck me and there's a great scene I've tweeted the photo of a group of women riding this massive tractor and they're all you know older women it's great because you don't normally expect that I've
Starting point is 00:13:57 covered protests in the US Black Lives Matter protests that kind of thing it's often younger people but what we've seen with this is that older farmers, older men, but also older women. And, you know, I wouldn't have expected to see older rural women at a protest day in, day out, not just cooking the food, but also being part of the protest, some even speaking on the stage. So, I mean, that really was an eye opener for me. Thank you both. Well, speaking as a Punjabi myself, the women are made of tough stuff. Rajini and Usha, thank you both for speaking to me there. Now, 23-year-old wrestler Alia James
Starting point is 00:14:31 was signed by WWE in the middle of lockdown. Now, normal tryouts involve a rigorous selection process with over 80 athletes, but Alia bypassed this and was hired on the exceptional promise she showed. Here's a clip from a WWE battle between Alaliyah and fellow wrestler Ginny Couture. Well right from the get-go in this match-up where we're looking for a clean break,
Starting point is 00:14:52 Aaliyah James shoving Ginny out of the corner. Hey Ginny, back it up, out of the corner, sit up. I know, the rules! How different is this to the Ginny we've seen in previous incarnations? Well, she's just the old Ginny, but turned up to 11. Oh, but James... The Ruth, the side to her. James is still in this. Look at the athleticism.
Starting point is 00:15:20 Oh, sounds tough. Aaliyah, welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations. Just how big a deal is it being signed by WWE? I feel like everyone who ever was interested in wrestling, the first ever time they had seen it was WWE. So for me, it's like the childhood dream has come true. I would never have thought that I'd be here. How did you get the news?
Starting point is 00:15:42 So I was just in my room. So it was in the middle of lockdown. I was doing my home workouts as much as everyone else was. And I receive an email and it's scheduling a call. And I just thought it was maybe to get a heads up of like my progress, being like, we know who you are. It's we're seeing what you're doing. And they just offered me a contract just on the phone. And I was so shocked. I didn't know what to say. I think I went silent and she was going to me,
Starting point is 00:16:09 is it something you're interested in? Would you like it? And I was like, yes, please. Of course. It was such a shock, but it was really nice to have some good news in lockdown. So when did you first decide that wrestling was for you? I think when I was a lot younger, I was very interested.
Starting point is 00:16:24 And I watched it with my, surprisingly with my sisters, because I know when I was a lot younger I was very interested and I watched it with my surprisingly with my sisters because I know usually people have a male influence but um I watched it with my sisters and I just thought that's what I wanted to do but I was like seven eight years old and I thought it was impossible especially in this country but it wasn't until I was around 19 where I found a training school in London and that's when I realised actually this this potentially could be something that I could do. And so you you got this contract through lockdown but obviously you have to be so fit in fact I watched a clip of you in action and you are so athletic so fit so strong um how do you even start to train to become a wrestler so when I actually first started I had no strength at all there were moves that people were doing and I just was I was out of
Starting point is 00:17:12 breath I was so weak so I just told myself I have to sign up to the gym and I have to just train and just lift weights and do every single thing possible because you can be strong but you have to have like you have to have like you have to have stamina. You have to be able to do the moves, remember everything, lift people, run around. It's like so involved. You have to be you have to be athletic. You have to be strong. You also have to be a bit of a gymnast.
Starting point is 00:17:35 Some of those moves are absolutely terrifying. You're doing backflips. You're jumping off the side bits. Sorry, very technical, obviously. Just, you know, just overcoming your fear to go to do that. Yeah, definitely. I feel like a lot of my fear was to actually perform itself. So to be in front of a crowd, especially doing something that I'm not familiar with.
Starting point is 00:17:58 So I hadn't been wrestling for very long before I had my first match. So I had to overcome the fear of even just being out there in front of people but I feel like when you're out there like beforehand that's the scariest part but when you're out there you kind of don't have time to be nervous you don't have time to have all the fears you had 30 seconds ago you just kind of forget about it. And do you get into character? Yeah definitely I feel like my character is is just me so it's me but with a hundred percent confidence and all smiles and all happy and I feel like it's easy for me to be an extension of myself
Starting point is 00:18:32 rather than to be a whole different character and I hope I'm not shattering anyone's illusions about wrestling here when I say it is all set up isn't it it's all pantomime it's all choreographed so it is yeah so you do um speak beforehand speak beforehand to who you're facing in the ring. But the moves itself, they can be very painful and very tiring. So there is definitely that element to it as well. And I guess everybody's thinking this because, you know, we're in lockdown, we're in where we are, where we are with the world. How have you kept yourself motivated to keep training? So I've just been doing my home workouts. I have a little gym set up in my shed in my garden, has a few weights in there.
Starting point is 00:19:16 I've been doing my cardio in my bedroom with some Nike app, doing some running around at parks and things like that. So I just have to tell myself to do these workouts and train and then I can watch Netflix and then I can eat some cake and I can do all the fun things after that it's good self-discipline and what's your and what's your ambition earlier obviously you've you've signed to WW amazing you didn't even have to go for an audition they just called you and said they want you what what would you love for your life where would you want it to go so right now obviously the NXT UK is based in London so right now I'm happy to be here but I do really want to move to the States and be on the main roster that's Raw and Smackdown and they have they have shows all around in the US. And that is, I feel like everyone's dream
Starting point is 00:20:06 who begins wrestling would love to be in WWE in America. So that's definitely where I aim to go. Well, everyone here at Team Woman's Hour hopes that you get there. And yeah, we can watch you, can't we? 10 o'clock on BT, we can watch you fight on a Friday night. WWE, wonderful. Aaliyah, thank you so much for joining us
Starting point is 00:20:26 and congratulations once again. Thank you. Now everyone's talking about it. The council meeting that erupted into Zoom rage and it's gone viral. And Jackie Weaver is now trending and we have her first. She's Chief Officer of the Cheshire Association
Starting point is 00:20:42 of Local Councils. But before we speak to her, have a listen to this. You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver. No authority at all. She's just kicked him out. No, she's kicked him out. Don't, don't. She's kicked him out. Don't. This is a meeting called by two councillors. Illegally. Who may now elect a chairman. No, they can't because the Vice Chaircillors. Illegally. May now elect a chairman.
Starting point is 00:21:06 No, they can't because the vice chair's here. I take charge. Read the standing orders. Read them and understand them. I feel like we should send Aaliyah James, our WWE woman, to go and talk to this council meeting. Welcome, welcome, Jackie Weaver. Welcome to Woman's Hour.
Starting point is 00:21:24 I must say, you have as much authority as you like here. How do you feel being so famous this morning? Well, surprised, I guess, more than anything else. Lovely to be talking to you this morning. I mean, I suppose the surprise comes in large part because actually 99.99%, that's an actual fact I'm sure, of council meetings are just not like that. They are often less exciting than we might hope they were. And in fact, you know, although this has a positive spin for it, most of the time I'm trying to encourage people to get involved in parish councils,
Starting point is 00:22:07 to raise their profile, et cetera. So I guess the plus side of this is it's certainly done that. And has anyone else on the Zoom reacted this morning? Have they been in touch? Yes. I mean, to be honest, one of the reasons this has been easy and I'm happy to speak to you is that I've had nothing but really lovely, positive support from people who, you know Weaver is a real hero. Her no-nonsense reaction to this bullying, petty, sexist behaviour, which is seen in councils up and down the country, is so refreshing.
Starting point is 00:22:51 Well done, Jackie. That's lovely. And that's kind of reflective of the kind of thing that I've had. So that's been lovely. And I guess the harder-nosed kind of response to it is also around there is an element of bullying and bad behavior in local councils and a lot of us are working very hard and that includes central government to try to do something about that because we're passionate about the fact that local government is the mechanism by
Starting point is 00:23:26 which people can really engage with their communities yeah you know although you know they say lots of negative stuff this morning and actually some of it is quite amusing i mean of course i don't even know that they're there yes um but you know on the note on what you've just been saying about bullying because we we had a note from Jane who emailed in to say, I actually found the clip quite upsetting because it reminded me of how I felt trying to contribute
Starting point is 00:23:52 or chair meetings of local groups where very bullying men and occasionally women too have behaved really badly. I think many women will relate to this and have experienced a bit of it. And actually, it's not that funny. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:24:06 I mean, I don't mean um the principle of it is funny but but actually you know there has to be some um although clearly there's amusement in in the way somebody has has actually just lost it um and you know um it's it's harsh to harsh to take some pleasure from that. But I'm afraid that when you are being bullied, if you can see that the other person has lost it, there is a sense of, I did OK there because I've done it together. And have you spoken to your fellow councillors this morning? No, not this morning.
Starting point is 00:24:47 Briefly spoke last night. When you say fellow councillors, I'm not a councillor, nor am I a member of Hanforth Parish Council, but that's an important point. You introduced me as Jackie Weaver from the Cheshire Association of Local Councils. I mean, what we do as an organisation is we provide, that sounds like a sales pitch now,
Starting point is 00:25:09 advice, guidance and support to the town and parish councils across Cheshire. Fine. And Jackie, what we want is advice, guidance and support about how to cope with Zoom meetings like that. What advice can you give everybody? Because we're all having these Zoom meetings. We're all at the end of our tether. We're all slightly losing it a little bit. How do we stay as calm and collective as you did in Zoom
Starting point is 00:25:28 meetings? What should we do? Well, first of all, never wear your pyjamas. Fine. That's it. That's the one. Just don't wear your pyjamas. And actually, just what I want to know is, you were being shouted down and being told that you weren't the person in authority. Were you actually in charge? Who was in charge? Who was in charge of that meeting? I'm not absolutely sure who was in charge. But if you want the boring details, we have two councillors who have legitimately called a meeting. There's a process for you to tell the death of the details. down. And at that point, my job in supporting them to hold that meeting was to make sure they were able to hold that meeting. But Jackie, just back to how calm you were, and the emails and
Starting point is 00:26:15 texts are coming through. And I noticed that as well, because you know, you were being shouted down left, right and centre. And what made it funny was, obviously, lots of people thought they were on mute, and you could hear what was going on and there was a running commentary. And the whole thing is just so British. It's brilliant. But you remained so calm in that moment. And even your face, just what was going through your mind? Teach me, because I would have had a very different reaction had it been me being shouted down like that.
Starting point is 00:26:42 I guess for me, it's about being focused on what you're trying to achieve so that there would have been a certain pleasure in fighting the argument. You know, I'm legitimately here. This is my role. You're all wrong. These are the facts. But actually I wasn't there to train them in how you hold a parish council meeting. I was very focused and I was there to support the three councillors
Starting point is 00:27:06 that wanted to get on with the ordinary, often dull business of a parish council looking at doing stuff for its community and just not getting dragged into it. And although I make the joke about don't wear your pyjama bottoms, there's a kind of serious point to that, something that I've found myself, and I'm sure it might resonate for others during lockdown, is it is so tempting to just kind of put on a face and think that, you know, well, that's all you ever see.
Starting point is 00:27:35 So it's okay if I'm wearing my slippers and my pyjama bottoms. But for me, it makes a, it has a change in your own personal attitude if you know that you're all together irrespective of whether you can see whether i'm wearing my pajamas or not i know honestly i'm not jackie um it's been such a pleasure talking to you and you've made me feel terrible about presenting woman's hour in my pajamas now next next week i'll get dressed properly enjoy uh enjoy your day today and uh no doubt jack Jackie Weaver's name will be trending on Twitter. Now, the writer. Thank you. Now, the writer and opera singer Julie Kogan has just won a high court battle to be credited for her part in writing the script for the Oscar nominated film Florence Foster Jenkins starring Meryl Streep and Hugh Jackman. She won the case against her former partner who claimed the work was his.
Starting point is 00:28:25 So what does this case mean for other collaborative creative partnerships, especially where the relationship has broken down? Well, Julia joins me now, along with Dr. Daniela Simone, a senior lecturer at Macquarie University and an expert in copyright and collective authorship. And Daniela is joining us from Australia
Starting point is 00:28:42 where it's nine o'clock at night. But before we speak to them, let's hear a clip from the film where we hear about Florence Foster Jenkins' unique singing style. I'll be honest with you, Mr. Bayfield, I think Madam Florence might need a little more preparation before she sings in public. We've been rehearsing for a month. I know, but from time to time, she can't be a little... Flat? Flat? A tad. Just a tad.
Starting point is 00:29:15 Carlo Edwards didn't mention any flatness, and he is the leading vocal coach in the city. Jeez, Mr. Bayfield, we can't be talking about the same singer. I mean, her vocal cords, they don't phonate freely. Her phrasing is haphazard. As for her subglottal pressure, it defies medical science. Ouch. Tell him what you really think. That's Hugh Grant and Simon Helberg there.
Starting point is 00:29:34 And it's a very funny film if you're looking for something to watch this weekend. Julia, Daniela, welcome to Woman's Hour. Julia, your reaction to the court ruling? Hi, Anita. Well, it's mixed. I was obviously very happy to finally be credited after an almost six year legal battle. And I should say that proceedings were brought against me preemptively, funnily enough. But I was also very disappointed because fundamentally the judge did not believe me strangely despite ruling
Starting point is 00:30:08 in my favor and of course our case was very unusual and there was a great deal of evidence and some very crucial evidence wasn't considered by the judge but it was possibly the first ever divorce type case to ever be heard in the intellectual property court, which isn't really equipped to deal with those interpersonal aspects of our private relationship, which also was our working relationship, too. So take us back, Julia, explain what happened. You just got into a relationship with Nicholas Martin, haven't you? And then how did this idea come about because you're you're a singer and you knew about um florence
Starting point is 00:30:49 foster jenkins didn't you yes absolutely i'd known about her since i was uh at conservatory at my university in america so it was a story that i'd been carrying around for for decades and uh it was the first project I suggested. And the circumstances of the conception were quite extreme. Several days after meeting Mr. Martin, I was almost killed in a car accident on my way to a recording studio. And Nick had just lost his writing job on Midsommar Murders, and he had no upcoming work.
Starting point is 00:31:24 And all the projects that he had no upcoming work. And all the projects that he had written in the past had done the industry rounds, and no one was interested in anything. So we were both in quite a desperate state when we started brainstorming. And by the time I moved in with him and we started brainstorming about new projects, I had already given him quite a bit of input about his old projects and had already started editing some of those. So it was a very natural progression within the relationship to start coming up with ideas. And this project was probably my least original idea ever because it was the best story from my world of classical singing.
Starting point is 00:32:00 And I was amazed that nobody had made a feature film of it, though a few successful plays had already been made of that story. So what had you done or not done that meant that he took full credit for the film? Well, very early in our relationship, we had an argument which was to prove key in how I behaved from that point on. We actually worked on around a dozen projects together in the three years that we were a couple, and of those four were brand new co-creations, and we were actually working on another of our co-creations which was to be a rom-com loosely based on our own accident-prone beginnings. And I asked, and this was within weeks of me moving in with him, I asked for full credit. I asked to be accredited as a co-writer with my name next to his. And he became very upset at that idea.
Starting point is 00:33:02 And we had an argument in which I said said but i've written from a very early age i majored in english literature university along with local before is it something i'd always done and had been part of my and that was it the argument the argument made him decide that you were out i'm going to bring daniella in on this it's very murky ground isn't it creativity collaboration and throw into that a relationship that's breaking down. Just how important is this case? This is, I would say, it's really a game changer when it comes to the law of joint authorship and copyright law. Because prior to this case, the law was quite unclear.
Starting point is 00:33:41 There were various different strains of decisions. And it wasn't very clear whether or not the law would provide a good support for minority contributions to a creative project. This case is really important because the court stresses you don't have to have made an equal contribution to count as a joint author, you don't need to put pen to paper necessarily, you just need to have had a contribution that's creative, it could be to story, it could be to character and you don't necessarily even need to have had a contribution that's creative. It could be to story, it could be to character. And you don't necessarily even need to have overall creative control or the final say in order to be credited and to get the recognition and rewards that you should be entitled to as an author. And I suppose that's something that's really important for women in particular, because, you know, we're not always the first to assert ourselves and our interests, are we? And we always try and accommodate people. I'm sure there's lots
Starting point is 00:34:29 of people listening who've been in those meetings where you know it's your idea, but you've just thought, you know, let them have it. Yeah, I mean, that's really, I think, where the law has an important role to play in balancing power and ensuring that creative contributors have a bargaining chip, because the law could kind of take two roles. They could either be an accomplice in rendering women's contributions invisible or the law could provide a bargaining chip that helps you kind of assert your interest and get that recognition that you deserve. Now, the law might not be enough because obviously there's power issues and dynamics involved in these industries that can be quite male dominated. But certainly this case is a great help.
Starting point is 00:35:10 Brilliant. Daniela and Julia, very quickly, one sentence. If you could have done it differently, what would you have done? I would have protected myself from the start. Sign that bit of paper. This idea belongs to Daniela. Well done again, Julia and Daniela. Thank you for joining us. Now, it's Golden Globes later this month. The shortlist for Best Director has been,
Starting point is 00:35:34 has more women than men for the first time. But there have also been some surprises about who hasn't made it through. Michaela Cole's I May Destroy You isn't there. And so to talk about it all, I'm joined by The Guardian's deputy TV editor, Hannah J. Davis and Anna Smith, film critic and host of the podcast Girls on Film. Hannah and Anna, welcome. Hannah, you're a huge fan of I May Destroy You. There's lots of people talking about this, Michaela Cole is not there. What's your reaction?
Starting point is 00:36:07 Hi, Anita. I think it was a genuinely groundbreaking series. So it is incredibly disappointing to have not seen it, obviously making it onto the Golden Globes nomination list. I think it's kind of difficult sometimes with TV criticism, film criticism, to kind of cut through any hype and any buzz, but actually this was a genuinely groundbreaking
Starting point is 00:36:32 series about sexual assault based on Michaela Cole's own real life experiences, titled Sexual Assault in many different forms, from a kind of date rape situation to sharing images without consent, there was a majority black cast or a black female creator so I think just a real anomaly in terms of what we're used to seeing on tv so it's a real disappointment not to see it recognized there
Starting point is 00:36:54 yeah it was so groundbreaking in so many ways why do you think it's been overlooked it's a great question I think it's the question that everyone's sort of asking this week isn't it um I think the the there's been a bit of a backlash I suppose quote unquote backlash and I think what's been interesting in that has been other creators so for example um Deborah Kopach and one of the writers of Emily in Paris kind of coming forward and saying very um modestly that you know she kind of wishes that I Made a Story had also been alongside that show and other creators sort of saying you know um it would have been great to see it there I think honestly it kind of comes down to the continued inequalities in the creative industries there's
Starting point is 00:37:35 sort of no reason for the show not to have been on there it's became hugely ubiquitous in the way that I suppose Fleabag did a couple of years ago so it is a real surprise not to see it on there and to be honest I think a lot of people have said, you know, this can only really come down to race and it's incredibly disappointing. Anna, are you equally as disappointed? I know you're coming from the angle of film, but, you know, what do you think of it?
Starting point is 00:37:59 Yeah, I think it's a shocking oversight, obviously, as Hannah says, it's such a groundbreaking and important TV series. But to be honest, I'm not massively surprised because the Golden Globes have a very different kind of form to a lot of other awards ceremonies. And certainly on the film side, they do tend to favour more traditional British fare, things that are a bit edgier and less edgy. And obviously, yes, kind of more white. They tend to go for kind of either very light hearted or very traditional things, but either way, very star powered. So that might be another issue here. Like if you look at last year, you know, the Elton John biopic Rocket Man did very well.
Starting point is 00:38:41 And of course, the war film 1917. So you've got big names and you've got sort of some quite serious topics there. So, yeah. What is. Sorry, carry on. Now, does it say something about the judging panel rather than the piece of work then? It does. I mean, there are only 89 voters. They're members of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association. So they are non-American journalists who live in LA and they kind of do the starry interview junket circuit.
Starting point is 00:38:59 They're not necessarily critics. So traditionally they have been swayed sometimes by celebrity. They haven't necessarily seen everything. And I think the thing is that the Golden Globes are thought of very highly because they are seen as a bit of a predictor to the Oscars. And it happens during the Oscar voting period. And it traditionally has a very glitzy award ceremony on TV. But actually, it's a very small pool of voters. So we all agree that Michaela Cole has been snubbed and it's a shocking omission. But in other categories, women have been recognised, particularly the best director. Three women for the first time have been nominated for their films. How important is that?
Starting point is 00:39:37 It's absolutely huge. I think whatever you think of the Globes, I think the best director category has been controversial for many years across all awards because there's this idea that a director is a white man there's this unconscious bias that you see happening again and again and wonderful women and women of color are frequently overlooked and this year you've not only got three women but two two women of color so it's really exciting you know I'm really hoping that this will be the sign of things to come rather than anomaly this year because it has been a great year in a weird way in the pandemic for women in film on my podcast girls on film we've been able to feature so many fantastic women because their films have had time to be released and room to breathe without the male competition quite so much and lots of
Starting point is 00:40:18 i mean we should talk generally because lots of brits have been nominated men and women lots of great male actors riz Ahmed, Dev Patel, Gary Oldman, Anthony Hopkins, Dania Kaluuya. I mean, this is going to be quite an exciting win for the Brits, really, couldn't it? Yeah, there's a lot of great British actors, often in American films or films set in America. But I think Vanessa Kirby, for Pieces of a Woman,
Starting point is 00:40:39 her performance was extraordinary. And I think she's a front runner in that best actress category. I loved Rosamund Pike in the film I Care A Lot which we'll be seeing soon Kerry Mulligan all good stuff and uh Hannah as Olivia Colman Emma Corrin and all the tv stuff The Crown so the list goes on it's going to be quite exciting to watch so I mean we're all desperate for recommendations at the moment aren't we to what to watch because we watched absolutely everything so Hannah from you some top tv please and then Anna I, from you, some top TV, please. And then, Anna, I'll ask you about some good films we should be watching this weekend.
Starting point is 00:41:09 Oh, gosh. I mean, I personally, I'm terrible to ask because once I finish work, all I watch is MasterChef, The Professionals, or Interior Design Masters, or something like that. Both are excellent. But I would definitely recommend the French series Lupin on Netflix, which has been doing really well.
Starting point is 00:41:24 It's been their most watched series of late um very kind of batman-esque um slightly cheesy french thriller but really quite fun um yeah there's just good for us that's what we'll we'll get you back on next week to tell us about something else and uh anna top film that we should all watch baby teeth on netflix it's It's an Australian dysfunctional family drama. You will laugh and you will cry. That's fantastic. Just what we need. Thank you both for joining me. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello. Did you know that in a million years, there'll be no more total solar eclipses because the moon is gradually moving away from the earth? Or that during China's cultural revolution, people were arrested for bourgeois habits, like keeping a pet or wearing tight trousers.
Starting point is 00:42:10 I'm Melvin Bragg, and those are two of the extraordinary things I've learned while presenting the latest series of In Our Time. Each week, I ask three expert academic guests to break down and illuminate everything from quantum gravity to the nature of humanity, from Confucius to Augustus, from Beowulf to Boudicca. So if you're curious about the world around you, or you simply want to win your next general knowledge quiz, subscribe to In Our Time on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year,
Starting point is 00:42:39 I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

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