Woman's Hour - Writer Dolly Alderton. Sue Biggs CBE on moving on from her role as the RHS's DG.

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

Can platonic love survive romantic love as we grow up? Emma Barnett talks to to the writer Dolly Alderton about her new BBC TV series, an adaptation of her 2018 memoir ‘Everything I Know About Love���, A round-up of the weekends events for the Queen's platinum jubilee from Roya Nikkah - royal editor of The Sunday Times and Dame Prue Leith on being part of the final part of the final pageant on the Mall. The Royal Horticultural Society is the UK’s largest gardening charity For the last 12 years Sue Biggs CBE has been its director general. She's been pivotal in creating and carrying out a huge investment programme. As she prepares to step down later this month, she talks to Emma Barnett about her work over the last decade and her plans for the future. The non-fatal strangulation law comes into effect tomorrow as part of the Domestic Abuse Act, following a successful campaign by groups such as the Centre for Women's Justice and cross-party MPs and peers. We discuss its significance and next steps with Nogah Ofer from the Centre for Women's Justice and forensic physician Dr Catherine White, who is calling for specialist training for groups who work with victims of NFS.Plus as Boris Johnson faces a vote of No Confidence in the Commons this afternoon, we hear from attorney general for England and Wales Suella Braverman and our deputy political editor Vicky Young. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. It is good to be back after a week off. Did I miss anything? One minute it's bunting, dancing and flags on the mall for the Jubilee and the next a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister down the road in Westminster. What a difference 24 hours makes, eh?

All that to come. Also on today's programme, the author Dolly Alderton on the eve of the TV adaptation of her book Everything I Know About Love. And we explain how a new law has been created and what it means for women. But I do have to ask you this. In the midst of all the

pomp and ceremony and street parties, lunches on trestle tables, Daleks and giant puppets, airport delays and some political turmoil, what is in the bottom of your handbag? Because the bottom of a woman's handbag, rucksack, satchel, whatever you sport, it is a wondrous place filled with all sorts. And now we know for sure that the Queen keeps a marmalade sandwich in there thanks to her sketch with Paddington Bear. A few minutes of television I've watched more times this weekend with our four-year-old than I care to recall.

It is the perfect excuse to ask you about the more surprising things that you've found in your bag. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. My bag at the last clear out pre-holiday, so just over a week ago, three tampons, one half pack of polos, two post office receipts, four biros and a lip balm and a very, very small chocolate coin. Don't know where that was from. What about you? Please let me know.

I was looking up what has been said to be in Her Majesty's handbag before. Hello magazine cites well-informed opinion, quote, that Her Majesty carries reading glasses, other practical must haves, including a handkerchief, mints, a fountain pen and a portable hook used for hanging the bag neatly under tables. What's in your bag? I'd like to be nosy please, that's really what I do for a living. Please, please humour me. I look forward to seeing those

messages come in. But I bet my first guest today has a brilliant answer to that question regarding her bag. Something perhaps we'll get to. But she also participated in the final part of the celebrations for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee, the pageant along the Mall from Buckingham Palace, as one of the dames in jags, except her jag experienced a slight hitch. I'm talking about the chef, cookery writer, and of course, bake-off judge, Dame Prue Leith. Good morning. Hello, Emma.

Are you all right? Did you get to your destination? Yes, they pushed me all the way to Buckingham Palace. So what happened, Prue? What happened to your particular car? Our Jag had a battery that was a bit flat and they had trouble starting it in the beginning, which was we lined up in Horse Guard's Parade and that's where we started. And they had to jump start it then.

And then it just it didn't like going slowly. So it did sort of kangaroo leaps, little jerks, if it was asked to go very slowly. And we did go slowly because the people in front of us were just walking. So anyway, it finally just died in the middle of the mouth and did your soul how are you during that moment it was just very funny i mean it didn't matter at all but you know every the whole event was so good humor that almost anything could have gone wrong and it would have been fine exactly and i i think that what i loved the, there was three or four guys, I think, who came to your aid, pushing the jag. Four of them were pushing us. I think four of them, three or four of them. And I really felt really guilty because at this, you know, in a

normal life, you'd get out and get pushed. Yes. I couldn't have got out of that jag without help anyway. It's practically, you know, I'm very old and it's practically on the floor. So you did think about it for a moment, but you let... I didn't even offer, but the poor girl who was our chauffeur, she was, her family owned the Jag. Right. What was so nice about the whole parade was that nearly all those vehicles, whether they were little Sinclair C5s or whatever they are, or great big Jags or tractors or whatever they were, they were little Sinclair C5s or whatever they are or the or

great big Jags or tractors or whatever they were they were owned by the people who drove them it was a real people's parade I don't I also have to say I just loved this idea of dames in Jags I mean when did you get that invitation how does that come through it just came with you know they the chap who runs the whole caboose um the chairman is called nicholas um coleridge and he just wrote to me and said hey would you like to do this because we're going to have some dames and jacks i think originally they just they didn't think they'd have any sort of so-called celebs because it was to be a people's parade and then they thought well actually joan collins and arlene phillips and you know, Darcy Russell might add to the joy of nations.

And Prue Leith, of course, in the broken one, though. I love that it wasn't going well from the beginning. I was so sorry for the girl who was driving us because she said she'd never done anything like this before. And she was a very good driver, but she just, you know, and she felt so humiliated, but really. No, it was a great moment. You sort of tuned in for that moment and for those moments. And the men, you know,

in the high-vis jackets, waving to the cameras, absolutely loving it, just added to it. I read in one of the papers, I think it was the Times this morning, that if, you know, if Her Majesty had caught

that particular moment, it's speculated she would have really enjoyed it because she quite enjoys it when things go wrong. Well, I think if that was all that went wrong, and I must say that that was an amazingly well-organised pageant. I mean, when you think of the thousands of people involved and it went like clockwork,

the worst thing that happens is the cook gets stuck in the mouth. It's not very bad. No, it's not indeed. And what was it like for you beyond the slightly slower pace, being in the car and being around that? Because that's a very rare experience. It was. And in fact, I came back from Morocco to do it because we were going to, my husband and I were going to a friend's 60th birthday party which was a four-day event in in Marrakesh oh nice to miss the whole commotion I'd begun to really regret that you know as the excitement built up for the jubilee I thought why are we going away it's crazy and then this invitation came so I thought oh well we'll come back so in spite of

all the airport chaos we actually got to Morocco, had a wonderful two days, fantastic party, came back, all worked like clockwork, even managed to get my hair done. Well done. And did you clean out your handbag or anything in the bottom that we need to know about? I don't do it anymore, but I used to always carry a corkscrew in my handbag. Did you? anymore but I used to always carry a corkscrew in my handbag did you yeah because I remember when my children were little we would go for a lot of picnics and there's nothing worse than being on a glass a bottle of wine lovely sunny day and no corkscrew and you have to go around asking everybody else who's picnicking have they got a call listen I knew that a picnic with you Prue Leith would be fabulous but now I know it would be guaranteed, especially if you had that in the handbag.

And I knew you'd have a good answer to that question, as well as some of the best spectacles out there as a fellow spectacle wearer. I always enjoy your frames. Dame Prue Leith, a Dame in Jag, a very slow moving one yesterday. Lovely to talk to you. Thanks for coming home and being part of the pageant. Thanks, Emma. Let's talk now to a woman who's watched it all and continues to watch it all and the royal family that is for us at Roya Nikar, royal editor of the Sunday Times. Good morning to you Roya. Good morning Emma. Thank you. I thought you might still be asleep but you're

away. I wish. Well I have to reflect especially I suppose as women's hour on the fact that we did see the woman of the hour, of the moment, again, one final time yesterday, didn't we? When Her Majesty came out onto the balcony wearing that very striking green for all to see. Was that known it was going to happen? It was sort of more hoped that it was going to happen. The Buckingham Palace were really, really careful

to catch her all day with us because, obviously, as we saw as the weekend unfolded, she wasn't able to make everything she wanted to go to. She couldn't go to St Paul's. So in the morning we had a sort of, we were trying to sound out whether or not she'd be there. And Buckingham Palace said, not expected, but hasn't ruled it out. And then we got the nod just before 4.30, keep an eye on the flagpole. And then, of course, the flagpole, you know, the standard goes up, she's in the house, everyone was big cheers at that point. Indeed. And, you know, it was because of that, I suppose, it felt a bit more like a surprise whether it was going to happen or not. And there was some commentary as well about the

importance of the other women on the balcony with her, of course, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duchess of Cornwall, Catherine and Camilla, their supporting roles, how critical they are to this much more slimline vision of the monarchy. That's absolutely right. And the Queen has used those balcony moments in the last few years to send really strong messages. And the message could not have been clearer with that message. This is the future. These are my three heirs. And these are the women who will play an incredibly important role supporting them. And we saw that over the weekend. The Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of incredibly important role supporting them. And we saw that over the weekend. The Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Cambridge were front and centre.

And I thought it was interesting, actually, so were William and Kate's children. And that's the first time we've seen so much of them doing official engagements. I mean, they had to sit through a lot, didn't they? I mean, they had good seats, but there were people I did see messaging on social media, put them to bed, please, because this is a long time. But also commenting, I suppose, on how things change and, you know, they're not being as strict protocols for them. I think that's right. And I think, you know, it's a fine balance, isn't it, between the children having to be out on parade and actually having a private life. And I know the Cambridge has got that jealousy, but I suppose, you know,

Prince George and Princess Charlotte are going to play an increasingly important role going forwards, as the Queen has been all weekend over these four days. She has been directing our gaze to the future very clearly. Yes. And she also talked, of course, in her, she didn't speak on the balcony, never does. Of course, she talks to her family members and then, you know, papers, higher lip readers and all of that. But the message that came through on social media from her talked about her being humbled. I thought that message was pitch perfect. I loved the line where she said, there's no guidebook to being your queen for 70 years. I've done the best I can.

And I thought that lovely line about saying I might not have been able to come to everything, but I've been with you. You know, my heart has been with you. But again, that recognition in that statement, her saying, I'm going to do it to the best of my ability, but my family are going to be supporting me. It was a really lovely message. Very serious question, Rory Nicol. What's on the bottom of your handbag at the moment?

Do you know? Well, you and I share something there. I have a lot of broken pens, but I also always carry polos. Not for me, but I'm lucky enough to ride the household cavalry horses every morning that we saw on grade yesterday. What? So I always, to try and humour them in the morning, I always carry polos with me.

Is that part of the job as the Royal Editor of the Sunday Times? No. Nothing to do with the job. I've been doing it for way longer than I've been doing this job. It's just a lovely thing that I get to do and it means I'm up in time every morning for the BBC. Well, we're very grateful for that. And my polos are just for me.

Yours are for far more exciting purposes. Roya, this is the most fantastic question because I can't tell you some of the messages we're getting in. It's a window to people's life. And I don't think I would have found that out about you had I not asked it. Roya Nikar will talk again, the Royal Editor of the Sunday Times.

Thank you. Lesley's written in to say, I was at the Ritz for afternoon tea when I pulled out a tissue and out flew a semi-mouldy ham sandwich which I then remembered having stored for future use a few days before. The waiter didn't miss a beat and said

would madam like her sandwich for later or shall I dispose of it? I was really tempted just to keep it to see his face. Leslie, that's fantastic. Here we go, another horse one. I own a horse so I often find mushy carrots and bruised, often, to be honest, a bit rotten apples in my bag. That's from Sarah.

Good morning to you. Colin says, I didn't know a woman's handbag had a bottom. My wife's handbag seems to be like the TARDIS. It's got a truth to it. I also did see some Daleks yesterday. Just clearing out my bag after the cat tipped a whole glass of water in it during the night, I found it was full of radish seeds at the bottom. Reads this message with no name, but good morning to you.

When my daughter was small, she had a habit of quietly removing her knickers at any given opportunity and disposing of them. I had numerous calls from nursery telling me that she'd been dropped off with no knickers on. So I started carrying spare pairs of my little pony knickers in my bag. I did once forget to take them out before going out for the evening, though, which was slightly embarrassing when my bag was searched on the way into the theatre. That has just reminded me, whoever that was, thank you for that lovely message, of actually when I started here at Women's Hour and I had a Thomas the Tank Engine, a little electronic fake mobile phone that would go off with the full theme tune. And that was in my handbag. And I nearly brought that into the studio on day one. Another one here, bottom of my handbag, one pencil, one pen,

two wine gums, a bit fluffy, always is, always are. Post-it notes, two paperclips, a small key, no idea where that's from, five receipts and hand cream. Very comprehensive. Thank you. Whilst with friends recently and rummaging in my bag for a pen, much to their surprise and mine, I produced a small metal doorstop from Jan. Well, between you and Prue Leith with the corkscrew, we've got it all covered here with what's going on in the handbags of Britain. Keep those messages coming in. 84844.

But the bunting is still up in a lot of places. Flags are still flying. Plenty of people still recovering from parties or, you know, trying to get home from half-term holidays with many cancelled flights. But a headache closer to home became public knowledge just after 8 o'clock this morning as it was announced that the Prime Minister will face a vote of no confidence today. The vote was triggered after 54 Conservative MPs asked for it. But at least 180 Conservative MPs, a majority, in other words, of the Conservative Party, in terms of the MPs, that is, will have to vote against the Prime Minister tonight if he is to lose that vote. Attorney General for England and Wales, Member of the Cabinet, of course, Suella Braverman joins me now. Good morning, Suella. Good morning, Emma.

Should the Prime Minister go? No, Absolutely not. We've got a very successful Prime Minister in Boris Johnson, someone who broke the Brexit deadlock, secured historic majority in the 2019 election. He's also broken the law and you're the

Attorney General. So how does that sit with you, having a Prime Minister and the law watch? If I could just finish the reasons, and I will come to that, but he secured a historic majority in the 2019 general election he's navigated the choppy waters of Covid and he's leading the western alliance in the fight against Putin so I don't think he should go absolutely not you mentioned the rule breaking in number 10 on the parties during lockdown. And of course, that was very disappointing. And the Prime Minister has

apologised fully, taken responsibility, made changes. Has he taken responsibility? Has he taken responsibility? There are those in this country who can't remember a day that a Prime Minister has received such a fine from the authorities. And saying sorry, just doesn't cut it. It certainly doesn't cut it. And the reason I go back to this theme is because of your colleague, the Conservative MP, Jesse Norman, who's been loyal to the prime minister, former minister of state for the Department of Transport, in his letter of no confidence, which he's posted and shared in full online this morning, he has said to Boris Johnson, you have presided over a culture of casual lawbreaking at 10 Downing Street in relation to Covid. Suella Braverman, you are the attorney general. How on earth can you continue to support him? I have no hesitation in supporting the prime minister.

Of course, it was very disappointing and frustrating to see the outcome of the police investigation and no one is shying away from that situation. The Prime Minister himself as I said has been very fulsome in his apologies straightforward with taking

your time is precious your time is precious you're repeating yourself your time is precious but I would is precious. You're repeating yourself. Your time is precious, but I would like to try and get a slightly different view from you. You're saying it's disappointing and frustrating the outcome of the police report. Surely what you're actually disappointed with is the culture over which the prime minister presided, for which he received a penalty from the police. Are you not disappointed in that rather than what the police found?

Well, I mean, we can go over it. We've spent lots of time going over the outcome of the police investigation and the Sue Gray report. Many hours have been spent both on the airwaves and in Parliament poring over the details. There's a vote of no confidence this evening. It doesn't necessarily change things things we all accept the outcomes and as i said the prime minister's been very straightforward about it what i want to say here in my precious time that i've got

is about perspective no one's shying away and no one's trying to change the facts and the outcomes of those investigations but i think what i would and what i would urge my conservative colleagues to think about today when they vote about on the prime minister is about perspective. This is about the national interest. This is about delivering for the British people. This is about navigating Brexit and resolving that seemingly interminable crisis of 2018 and 2019 extension after extension, where the UK was a laughingstock. If you want to talk about what we've talked about for hours, excuse me, sorry, if you don't want to talk about, sorry, if you don't want to repeat or spend time talking again and again

about something you say we've spoken about a lot, which is that culture that the Prime Minister has presided over that was rule-breaking, law-breaking during COVID when people sacrificed a great deal. You cannot expect the listeners of this programme to indulge you in talking about Brexit, which you could also argue we have spent hours and hours talking about. The very good reason why you go back to that today

is because of the booing that was audible during the pageant celebrations yesterday and the day before during the Jubilee celebrations. The booing that was audible during the pageant celebrations yesterday and the day before during the Jubilee celebrations. The booing that was audible from a crowd there that you could argue would be very patriotic if they have queued to be on the Mall. The booing to the Prime Minister, no one else. That is why it's relevant to bring it up.

It's even more relevant to bring it up because it's being cited by a former loyalist today for the entire reason that tonight, Suella Braverman, there is a vote of no confidence in the Prime Minister. Those are the reasons, if you like, to go back to that. So why if MPs in his own party, now enough of them, do not have faith in this Prime Minister, should the public continue to have faith in him? I'm trying to tell you, and I think it's about perspective. So I'm not shying away, as I said,

from the disappointing findings of Sue Gray and the police investigation. However, I think that needs to be seen in context and against a broader perspective. A decision now against the Prime Minister would lead to a very distracting and destructive leadership contest when at a time when the country, frankly, doesn't need it,

at a time when the Conservative Party needs to be united, at a time when we need to focus on how we're supporting families with the cost of living, how we're actually recovering from the aftermath of COVID, how we're going to be tackling

the global inflation challenges, how we're going to keep supporting ukraine the prime minister has just been today as i understand it talking to president zelensky on further support for that for the ukrainians i've been to ukraine last month and i've seen there how grateful the ukrainians are for boris johnson's leadership at this awful time for their country i just think we need to keep that perspective. We will see what your fellow MPs think of that this evening. Suella Braveman, it's very clear what you think.

Thank you for making the time. It's always good to have you on the programme. Hope to talk to you again when we have a bit more time. The Attorney General for England and Wales there. Vicky Young is the BBC Deputy Political Editor. Vicky, that's the defence coming from the Cabinet. Yeah, it is. And there's always a pattern here with these things. Most of those, probably all of those in the Cabinet will be coming out.

They're actually falling over each other to get on the radio and TV at the moment. I know, it's good to have them on. To defend the Prime Minister. Now, partly that's because, of course, they owe their jobs to the current Prime Minister. And I think it's fair to say that many of them wouldn't have a job under an alternative. So, of course, it's in their interest to get out there and defend him. But it isn't the whole story. As you say, there are lots of MPs, some of them publicly, some of them privately, including serving ministers who are extremely unhappy with Boris Johnson. And it actually, I think, does go beyond the Partygate

scandal. You're right that the sound of the booing at the weekend summed it up for lots of them. But they are looking at Boris Johnson's leadership qualities and a lot of them fear that he's not up to the job. And I think that's the problem here. This is a collation of issues. It is, of course, about the law breaking in Downing Street. But for some of them, that is just one element of all of this.

And I think that's where the danger is for the prime minister. Some of the people who've come out against him are what we used to call Brexiteers. And yes, Brexit happened. The prime minister did deliver on that, but it's not over. And I think a lot of MPs now thinking, does the prime minister, does Boris Johnson have the skills to deliver this and frankly, to run the country? And just in terms of who has submitted these letters, do we know how many women have, who they are, a bit more profile on that? And if there's, I mean, there's been a little bit of polling, it has to say about support, especially amongst women and that waning at times.

Yeah, I mean, we don't know about the letters. 54 have to go in. We now know that that has happened and that number has gone in. I mean, we know a couple of those who went public with it. Caroline Noakes has been a long-standing critic of the Prime Minister. Her and Alicia Kearns,

they have put letters in. We know that. But it is a secret process, as will be the vote tonight. It will be secret. And that's what is interesting and again presents, presents some jeopardy for the prime minister, because even those who publicly are saying they support him doesn't mean that they do that when they go into that room and vote. I think some interesting, I think one sort of turning point, actually, Andrea Leadsom, you'll remember the former cabinet minister,

she wrote a letter last week talking about the unacceptable failings of leadership over lockdown. And she talked about the fact that she felt it was extremely unlikely that the senior leadership didn't know what was going on. And this gets to the heart of the Prime Minister's integrity. One serving minister said to me today, MPs are fed up with being tainted by all of this. They fear that the Prime Minister is dragging down the reputation of the Conservative Party and them with it. And some of them think that he's an embarrassment. Now, Andrea Leadsom didn't go as far as saying she put a letter in. She didn't specifically call on him to resign, but she was highly critical of all of this. And again, these are people who in the past have supported the prime minister.

The question, of course, can he get 180 to back him? Now, my hunch is that he will. But as we know, just winning is sometimes not enough. Theresa May won that confidence vote and she went six months later. It won't be the end of it for the prime minister. He is certainly damaged by all of this, but I think we can rely on the fact that he won't resign. There are lots of very senior people in the party who say they can't think of any circumstances under which the prime minister would resign. Vicky Young, we'll talk again too, I'm sure. The BBC's deputy political editor.

Thank you very much for that analysis. I have to say, messages still coming in, regardless of the political term, or you are being excellent at answering the question about what's in your handbag. Perhaps the more unexpected items. Simone, I always carry a lemon in my bag. Never travel without one.

Of course not. I need to know more, Simone. Now, many of you may have had this in your handbag, the book, the book that is called Everything I Know About Love by Dolly Alderton. A lot of you have enjoyed it, do enjoy it. It's always a bit of a moment when something you have enjoyed that you've read on the page comes to the screen when it's been adapted. And tomorrow evening, an adaptation of Dolly Alderton's memoir, Everything I Know About Love, becomes a seven-part TV series on BBC One. Set in 2012 in a London house show, it tells the story of four women as they begin working an adult life, a deep dive into

bad dates, heartaches and humiliations. The show's central love story, if you've not read the book, is actually between friends, childhood best friends, Maggie and Birdie. But can platonic love survive romantic love as we grow up? I spoke to the Sunday Times agony aunt and writer Dolly Alderton last week, just before the show's premiere, and I asked her to tell us about the story and now the TV adaptation of her memoir. I would describe it as a romantic comedy drama about two best friends. So it's the love story of two best female friends told with the same lens as you would tell

traditionally a romantic comedy between men and women. And it's also a raucous girl gang show about a group of four friends who moved to London at the same time and move into a house share. And it's also a coming of age story about our protagonist, about your 20s and working out what kind of woman you want to be. Why did you centre it around female friendship? Because if you had just seen the cover of the book or maybe the advertising for this, you might think, oh, the writer is tell me you know another tale here about somebody who's single trying to find their loved one well do you know what the the memoir that I wrote ended up being this kind of ode to female friendship which I'd never set out to do I was just writing I thought I was writing about my dating adventures and then I got to the final chapter of the memoir and I looked back and I was like, what is this book about? What's the conclusion? What am I

trying to say here? And there was only one thing that was constant in every chapter of my twenties and in every chapter of the book. And it was this ensemble of women that were around me that were there for the high days and the low days who I'd lived with and worked out womanhood with so it kind of accidentally became this huge love story about my friends and it it was it was a story about falling in love but it was about falling in love with these this gang of girls so and it felt like I was gonna take the right direction the right direction for it but is there is it based because there's one girl in particular Birdie in in the book in the now tv adaptation is that person real are they in your life or are they an amalgam so birdie is loosely based on the girl i called i call farley who is farley my best

friend in real life who write the book um and maggie the protagonist is loosely based on me and then two other characters nell and amara are an amalgamation and an imagination of two other girls what what do the real versions of these people make of themselves? Have they been able to see a preview, especially of the TV side of things, not just the writing side? No. I mean, Farley's coming to the premiere with me tonight, so let's hope she doesn't have a problem with it. That friendship.

It's a little bit too late. Yep, that friendship. We'll see how sturdy it goes. We'll see. Nothing to test it like this sort of thing. How worried were you? I know you've been very involved with the production of the TV side of things, but how worried were you about that going from the page to the screen? Because how you imagine something and the inferences and the influences are subtly different and those nuances yes what I learned about taking something from a script to screen is that there is always going to be a gap between what you imagined exactly and what ends up being on screen and a lot of the time that's because of budget that's because of health and safety that's because sexy things like that lots of practical reasons that Martin Scorsese never talks about in interviews. But what you just have to make sure is that, you know, making a TV show is so different to writing a book.

It's not even it takes a village. It takes a county. It takes a country to make a TV show. There are so many heads of department. There are so many people making it. The people who are driving everything and everyone around, the people who are giving you food, the people who are checking for it's COVID safe. You know, there are so many different people making it work. And you've just got to have faith if you've got the right people around you and you're

all united on what the main aim is. It might not be exactly what you imagined, but the heart of it will still be there. Do you like it? Do you like the TV show you've made? Yes, I do. Is it any good? Emma, you can't ask me that. Yeah, I can. I'm a woman. You know what we're like.

I'll basically just sit here and say it's rubbish. It's good. It's good. I do really like it. Because there could be a gap, couldn't there? There could be a gap between, you know, what you wrote, you say and what you what you get and how you feel about it and i think i think it's important to to ask you know because also you you obviously the book did very well was well received a warm reception and then you're going to get tv reviews you're going to get the

critics with their take how are you how are you doing about that? Do you know what? I feel OK because it's such a collaborative effort. Basically, what I'm saying is if it gets panned, it's not just my fault. It's all of our fault. So that feels good. Yeah, well, listen, I'm sure we're not going to be in that space. But, you know, again, you're releasing something very personal, aren't you? And you really wanted to have, and you have had, an impact on how those love stories are told. I wonder, because I was looking, you released this book,

were you in your 20s, late 20s, 28, and you're now 33? Is that right? Yes. And has it changed again what you feel and think about love and friendship in that time? Totally. Whenever I read, I wrote that book when I was 28 and I was very certain about love and friendship then, particularly friendship. I basically kind of the end of the book is a very certain young woman being very certain about this manifesto of friendship, which is friendship should take precedent above every relationship in your life. And I now look back on that as like an incredibly sweet and naive way of looking at things now that I'm in this decade

of life, where there are all these other obstacles in the way of hanging out with your friend on a Wednesday night. So yeah, I think that definitely, the idea of friendship and love, I think is in flux for your whole life, isn't it? It is. And I think, you know, of course, it's not just if you get a significant other that you then maybe have to, you know,

prioritise differently. It's then what your friends are doing as well. Like you say, you know, you might not get shacked up or get in a situation with someone else, but there's lots of changes that feel like lost don't they as you get older totally that's such a good way of putting it and the thing is is with every with everything you acquire in your own life it it can potentially be a render a loss

in your friendship you know when someone gets a huge promotion and they're at the office twice as much when someone gets one baby two babies babies, when someone has an ill parent they have to look after, the easiest place for collateral damage is friendship. That's the easiest place to cut the hours. And the hours will be cut. There's just no do you retain that closeness without it being as many contact hours? home with friends uh you do also say everything I know about love um but also parties jobs dates life you also work as an agony aunt uh how how's your advice giving across across those areas how are you finding that position and you do that for the Sunday Times yeah I do you know I'm I'm confident Emma in saying that I am the most fabulous advice giver um and I never take any of the advice I'm handing out and that's I think what

is that's why I think an imperfect agony aunt is a really important thing because when I'm writing those replies to people every week so often I'm not just replying to those people I'm writing it to myself it is the way that I process problems and I process my own anxieties when I'm telling someone in a very didactic way how they should solve something or the decisions they should make it is often me speaking in frustration to myself and that's what that's what I love it's therapy for myself as I hope it is for other people. Do people come up to you and ask if you're if you found love they want to know how the story ends on that perspective yes yeah they do and I think that's totally natural all I did was talk

about my love life for like five years of course people are interested and what do you say because people also think you know in your position you've got boundaries and you've got things you want to say and what you don't want to say what have you come up with? I say I've found the new Harry Styles album. No. I tell them the truth. You know, I'm not interested in lying. You know, I can't give some sort of media-trained answer because I don't think that you can let all these people in,

these people who have read my work and supported me and paid my bills and given me a career and given me a platform to then kind of shut off that avenue, I think is incredibly ungracious. So, you know, at the moment, my answer is I'm seeing someone, it's early days. And that's the answer that I would give. I definitely, as I said, I totally understand why people are interested in my love life. and it's not something I would lie about. No, no, it's just interesting, I suppose, for people if they're thinking about coming up to you, what they can ask, what they can say. And they are invested. How does that other person, that other half, if I'm allowed to ask, only because you've brought them up,

how do they feel about the fact that you do use your life for material? Does that come up in conversations? No, because as you said I've kind of drawn up these boundaries and I drew up those boundaries a few years ago I don't I don't write about my personal life anymore and I don't really that's changed that has gone yes no I I haven't I haven't written about my personal life or talked in detail about my personal life for a long time but all that being said as I you know, I still understand the reason why women come up to me and ask often inappropriate questions or say inappropriate things. There's a very simple reason, Emma, and it's because I've spoken to them in a very inappropriate

way. I've spoken to them in a very intimate way. So of course, now that that conversation has started, they can say the same to me and I yeah I totally understand that I think that makes sense well also you you love and I love this as well and of course I wouldn't do what I do presenting women's after a living if I didn't but you love the vulnerability between women you know and and that ability to go there totally it's and going back to your question about friendship and how you retain friendship as you get older, I think that magic of being able to be fully yourself with another woman and to say, you know, to rid of the shackles of, you know, presentation of what it is to be the perfect woman and to say, do you know what? my kid at the moment or my partner is driving me insane or I'm not feeling weird I'm feeling weird about how I look at the moment or to say that it's such to someone with trust to say that to another woman it's so cathartic and it is such a special thing and you're right I do love that and

so I feel very lucky that I get to have that not just with my female friends but loads of other women often drunk in bars coming up to me and they can come up to me all they like. And in terms of the next steps for you, TV producer, what are we doing next? What's the next part of this journey, do you think? I'd really, well, I'm going to write a novel next because, yeah, I do kind of fancy sitting my own uh at a desk for six hours a day just for a few months and then um yes i'd love to make more tv and i'd love to make film well it's lovely to talk to you um i do want to ask just before you go the most common question that you get as an agony aunt is there is there one that comes up again and again and again? Emma, it's so depressing. The inbox every week is the same questions

and it's always about useless men and it always makes me feel so depressed about being heterosexual. It's always, I think my boyfriend's cheating, a boy has ghosted me. There's also actually in all seriousness, there's a lot of biological anxiety from women in their first early 30s i get a lot that's the most constant email i think is women

petrified they're not going to meet someone and have kids with someone um which again is linked is linked i suppose to relationship concerns as well exactly exactly i said to my editor the other day it would be so fabulous if one week i got an email from a woman saying, dear Dolly, I've just been offered a job at NASA. And I don't know whether to take it or not. Yes, yours truly, sorted. Dolly, what a pleasure to talk to you. Good luck. And I hope the friendships are still intact this evening and thereafter for your friends who this is based on.

I've seen themselves or versions of themselves. Enjoy it. Thanks Emma, love talking to you. Dolly Alderton, the writer there, talking about her new BBC TV series Everything I Know About Love showing on BBC One from tomorrow and then available on the iPlayer and you can read an article all about female friendship on the Woman's Hour website and Dolly got in touch, good listener as well, to say in her handbag she always carries a mini bottle of Tabasco. And so it continues. If I can, I shall return to these many varied insights into the bottom of your bags,

including a gentleman who's got in touch to say he was recently bought a man bag by his wife and it's changed his life. Do keep those messages coming in on 84844. But tomorrow, a new law comes into effect, and it's a change that has come about after years of campaigning by different groups and MPs from across all political parties. At the moment, well, until tomorrow, I should say, anyway,

in England and Wales, someone who strangles their partner could be charged with the same offence as a slap. Well, from tomorrow, the non-fatal strangulation law comes into effect as part of the Domestic Abuse Act, becoming a stand-alone offence, punishable by up to five years in prison. Noga Offa from the Centre for Women's Justice, a group that campaigned for this change,

joins me now, as well as the forensic physician Dr Catherine White, formerly the clinical director of St Mary's Sexual Assault Referral Centre. I'll come to you in a moment Dr White but Noga let me start with you. For those who know nothing about this of course you're very familiar having campaigned. How common is non-fatal strangulation and does it usually happen against women? Yes it is. Good morning, Emma. It is incredibly common within domestic abuse and the figures from Save Lives, which is one of the leading domestic abuse charities, has found that around 40% of women who are assessed as high risk and who describe physical abuse, describe non-fatal strangulation, choking, suffocation, that kind of use of force to impede breathing.

And in terms of when it occurs, are there trends around when we see this? We see it in two different scenarios. One is as part of domestic violence, you know, one minute a woman will be dragged along by her hair, the next minute it's her hands around her neck, really terrifying use of force. The other type of situation is during sex, where a lot of women feel sort of pressurised, coerced into strangulation as a sort of sexual,

so-called sexual gratification. Yes, and people will be perhaps able to remember certain cases of that that we have read about in the news of late. This has been something that's been campaigned for. Why is it so important, Noga, that it becomes a standalone offence? What we found is that it's something that is incredibly trivialized within the criminal justice system. So the experience of being strangled, you know, a lot of women describe it as absolutely terrifying. They really, truly believe they're going to die. What's going through their mind is who's going to look after my children and so on. And yet when police officers sort of come, you know, to the scene or speak to them later, they think, oh, well, it's just a little red mark.

You know, that's a very minor level of assault, you know, and treat it, as you said, something legally equivalent to a slap, whereas in fact it's an incredibly high level of use of violence. Well, a Home Office spokesperson said that domestic abuse can take many forms including non-fatal strangulation which is an insidious act and why we have created a new offence of non-fatal strangulation. We are providing up to 3.3 million in funds over the next three years to help enable frontline officers to receive domestic abuse matters training which has been shaped by victim and

survivor testimony as well as working with the college of policing to ensure that this training reflects the most up-to-date understanding of domestic abuse and is applied consistently across all forces no good just just on that and to make sense because quite a lot of detail about what they're trying to shift and change in there you alluded to it's been trivial trivialized before are you worried that yes, we'll get the law, but the application of this still won't catch up? Yes, I mean, we've seen that with a lot of other legal measures to tackle domestic violence that they sit sort of relatively unused on the statute books. And domestic abuse matters was just mentioned in that quote.

But three quarters of police forces in the country have already done that training. So if that is now introduced into that training, that won't reach all the forces that have already completed it. So we really want this to actually be rolled out to all forces so that all police officers on the front line understand and are educated in this form of abuse, because otherwise they just won't really get it. Nega, stay with me a moment. Let me just bring in Dr Catherine White. We're mentioning training there about the police, but I know that you have treated victims

of non-fatal strangulation as a forensic physician at St Mary's. What kind of training, what kind of expertise is required by those and your colleagues, those like yourself and your colleagues to look after people? Hi Emma. I suppose, first of all, it's thinking about it in the first place, because my experience is that people, when they come forward after making a report of rape or sexual assault, don't say, oh, and by the way I was strangled that's really unusual that they do that so we have to be thinking about it and proactively asking and then going into more detail about the symptoms that they might have suffered the signs that they may have suffered because of it and then it's really important that we recognize the dangerousness

of it we as the forensic clinicians and then we have to communicate that danger both to the victim the complainant for that episode but also potentially future episodes but we have to communicate that risk really articulately to all the other professionals who might be involved so whether that's the police officer who's there because they may be looking at bail conditions so they need to understand it magistrates need to understand it cPS need to understand about the risk of that non-fatal strangulation poses in charging decisions. And then further down the line, judges, probation, and really importantly, the public,

because at the end of the day, if you do get a case in front of a jury, the jury needs to understand these issues as well. So it's everybody. And that's the ones that come forward to a sexual assault referral centre. We know that, you know, these things are underreported. So it could be primary care. It could be A&E. It could be a domestic abuse worker. There's so many, the list goes on and on. Thank you very much. You're right, though, to make the point that you've only been talking and dealing with those who come forward. And there are many who do not. And I suppose a

big part of this, and I'm sure Noga would agree with this, is also the education of the population that this isn't OK. This isn't something to be tolerated and it's not something to be trivialised by those officials and professionals. Also, in dealing with those who have survived this. Noga Offer from the Centre for Women's Justice. Dr. Catherine White, thank you very much to both of you. And I have to say your messages throughout today's programme. I want to say thank you to you because they're still coming in

and what detail, I mean Simone who very kindly has written back in the woman who said she can't go anywhere without a lemon in her handbag I did ask for more detail, you've provided it I love lemons, Emma, and I often find I get somewhere and even a friend's house or a country that grows them to find they haven't got one Wow, are you taking it on the aeroplane? Excellent I need them for tequila shots on walks,

squeezing over most food. When there's a lemon on a plate, there's never enough. My girlfriends, the dishevelled women, as we call them, always rely on me for lemons. Got us out of some serious lemon shortage scrapes. Very good. Talking of scrapes, I was a DJ, and on one of the first gigs,

my wife came with me as I got a serious technical situation, and I needed a screwdriver. She promptly presented, out of her first gigs, my wife came with me as I got a serious technical situation and I needed a screwdriver. She promptly presented out of her handbag a screwdriver and a pair of pliers. Loving this. As a nosy five-year-old boy, my auntie strictly told me if I ever looked in a woman's handbag, I would be sent into the fifth dimension, never to return. That did the trick. To this day, I never have, says Ruben. I have always described my mum as having a Mary Poppins handbag.

Whatever you ask for will emerge from the bag. An emery board for her nails, a bottle opener, screwdriver and a tape measure. I really need to up my handbag game here. It's quite heavy, some of this. I'm just going to point that out. P.S. My mum is 90. Good on her.

From Julie, who's listening in St Anne's. Good morning to you and to her. Well, let me tell you who's just walked into the studio. Someone who knows a thing or two, perhaps about having all sorts of tools to hand, maybe in her handbag too. The Royal Horticultural Society, or the RHS as you may know it, is the UK's largest gardening charity.

It offers advice and research to gardeners and horticulturalists, as well as running iconic flower shows. For the last 12 years, Sue Biggs CBE has been its Director General, and during her time, membership of the RHS has grown from 350,000 to 620,000, amongst many other things. Sue is stepping down this month, but before she does, she's come by to say hello. Good morning. Good morning. It's lovely to be here. It's lovely to have you. What's in the handbag?

Well, I'm very boring in my handbag. No, I can't even add any joy to that. I'm impressed with the lemon one there. I'm going to start that one. I know. For tequila shots on walks. Yes. I digress. I like that lady. Now, you thought this would be, excuse the pun, perhaps a bit of a walk in the park, this job. Not completely, but maybe a bit more relaxing than your previous role, which I understand was travel?

Yes, I was MD at Corny Travel for many years and 30 years in the travel industry. And then I thought, well, for my last 10 years of working, it would be lovely, you know, flower shows and gardens. And I love plants and I've been a member of the RHS for decades. But I've only myself to blame, really, that once I got to the RHS, it is the most wonderful organisation and I couldn't but help get things have changed a little bit. So yes, I apologise to all of my team over the 12 years. It's been a very exciting ride and whilst I'm sad to be stepping down in some ways, I know it's in great shape for Claire, who's taking over from me, to have a great ride going ahead too.

Just talking of rides, there was a special ride going on at Chelsea Flower Show, certainly with the Queen. There was, in the lovely buggy. In a buggy. Yes. So, you know, we saw her image, you know, put forward, broadcast onto the side of the carriage this weekend. But it was her in person. And you accompany her, is that right? Well, I've been very lucky.

I've accompanied around Chelsea for 10 years. But I think this one was very special because when we met her, for her to make the change from the car to the buggy, it was a surprise to us that all of the pensioners from the Royal Hospital had all lined up. And when she got out of her car, they all saluted her. So we all started in tears anyway.

But it was a wonderful, very, very special moment at my last Chelsea SDG. I bet. And, you know, going around with her and having those sorts of guests, especially, I suppose, at her level, is that a lovely perk when something has been, I imagine, quite stressful in the run-up? It's always, I mean, quite stressful in the run up? It's always, I mean, it's a very strange combination because I feel truly honoured and privileged. You know, it's an overused phrase that, but I really do, to have walked the Queen around for 10 years. But she's such, it's a bit of a mind bending experience, really, because on the one hand, she is the Queen of our country.

And on the other hand, she's a easy to talk to ordinary person so this ordinary to extraordinary is a bit mind-bending but she's so knowledgeable so interesting so beautiful and such a wonderful person so it's been great and i imagine has good knowledge like many of the women you've worked with and talked with over the years about horticulture yes what is that scene like for women what would you say now well I think now um it's better than it used to be certainly as far as Chelsea is concerned I slightly lost it at one of our Chelsea press launches and got really annoyed one year a few years ago we like that as journalists table banging moment of everybody every garden designer on main avenue that year was a man so i was looking in the audience all these really talented designers like sarah eberly and joe thompson and juliet sergeant

all these different designers um and just said women in this room we have to change this this is not right that chelsea is fundamentally just for men so it was great because the following year we got about a quarter to women and now it's the gender balance is always pretty equal at Chelsea. So that's really great to see. I've actually been reading a book called The Ballast Seat. It was coming out this week by Rosie Kinchton, the journalist who went on a bit of a journey learning about gardening and the history of it there's a there's a couple of women that she did follow and look at but it's mainly a lot of it uh certainly when you look back has been men explorers around the world botanists yeah and it was it was a glamorous and not very glamorous at times uh way of way of exploring the world yeah it was sort of before the travel industry began people traveled you know to find new plants and so the plant hunters

you know they were pretty much all men as indeed are the landscapers you know like Capability Brown and Co but where women started to come in really was on the plantsmanship side of things so people like Vita Sackville-West and Gertrude Jekyll, you know, they really brought to the fore the interest in plants and design and colour. And they certainly influenced me. And, you know, they're brilliant, brilliant women. But it wasn't just on that, you know, pretty design side. You know, there were women who were scientists and people tend to forget the science side of horticulture.

And when we open our laboratory new exhibition in December of this year, you'll learn about one of the first female scientists we ever had was an Indian lady who came and she's got an incredible story. So that will be really exciting. And today in Wisley Hilltop, which is our new home of gardening science that we opened last June,'ve got again many many women scientists there so I think there is no barrier now to any woman coming into science the only thing I would say is that people still and it frustrates the hell out of me people still think

horticulture is a career for people who have failed academically at school and when I look at you still think it has oh it's still for some people still which astounds me you know if you're going to become for example a master of horticulture that's seven years of degree level study if you're going to become a world-class designer and design gardens all the way around the world not just in this country you know these are super talented people and our scientists and god knows we need our scientists now with the climate change and biodiversity crises so if you're listening to this and your child wants to go into any form of horticulture please let them it's a career to be so proud of or now radish

seeds in the bottom of the handbag we heard yeah radish and grow your own lemons i think that woman should have a lemon in her conservatory so she can just pluck them and take them in her bag. I'm trying to get better at gardening in a very limited way. Not very hard yet, but I will get to it. And I feel it's one of the great skills if you can. And, you know, if you're lucky enough to have somewhere to put, of course, some seeds or, you know, window pots, whatever. What is your garden like? Mine's quite a... Yeah, lucky although i would just i would

just slightly disagree with you on what you said a moment ago everyone can be a gardener whether you've got a garden you're lucky enough to have a garden but if you don't you've probably got space for a pot even if you rent or you've got a balcony that you can put things on or you've got a window ledge that you can grow herbs and chilies and things on. So we can all be gardeners. It's just whether we're indoors or outdoors. So my garden is quite a small garden. I live in Surrey and it's a semi-detached Victorian house. And it's rammed at the moment with roses and peonies and lavender about to burst forth. I mean, I was hoping you were going to say it was a wasteland because you've been so busy running the RHS.

Well, well, you know, a bit like electricians never fix the lights. If my curatorial team from Wisley, if our curator Matt Potich came round, I think he'd tell me it was jungle because I can't resist plants. So I plant far too many. They're all rammed in and nothing. They look nothing like Wisley. So it is. It's one of the things about stepping down is I will finally have time to rescue my garden back again I think you should and and a bridgewater garden in Salford yes oh that's that's one of your your moments I understand during yeah we had a big sort of strategic program that seven

big projects were going to get done and we had to fundraise 40 million and then we invested over 160 million into horticulture and uh the biggest one was Wisley, actually, with the recreation of various things at Wisley that I've touched upon already. But Bridgewater as a standalone project was the biggest. And that is such a fantastic garden where the community of Salford have really made that so special. The local community, the Chinese community in Greater Manchester the different councils that affect their Greater Manchester and Salford the councillors the it's just the opening day of Bridgewater I think was was if I had to choose one day that was my favourite of 12 years it might be that one reduce me to tears several times I'm from Salford born and

bred so I must go and look at it and I haven't seen it yet. So that's a date for me. And you are not retiring, I noticed, just stepping down. Yes, yes. Carefully chosen words. I think so, because I think it's been a very full on job. And I could do with a little bit of time of in the Italian sunshine. But after that, I'm sure I'll be coming back to something. With a lemon in your handbag.

With a lemon in my handbag and possibly something even more imaginative. But who knows? This has been one of the best questions. I mean, I've even seen a forgotten sausage has come in, in the bottom of a handbag. Lovely. Raw, cooked. I mean, I don't know. Sue Biggs, stepping down as the Director General for the Royal Horticultural Society, the RHS.

Thank you. And thank you to you. Back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back. The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special

that will chill you to the bone. It was a real dream holiday, really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell. Whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm. They wanted to frighten us. The Uncanny Summer Special. Out now.

What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.