Woman's Hour - Yanis Varoufakis, Bonnie Langford, 'Catastrophic' waits for NHS community care, Killer in the House documentary

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Tens of thousands of children in England have spent more than a year waiting for NHS community care, such as hearing services, speech and language therapy and disability support, the BBC has found. Nick Triggle, BBC News Health Correspondent and Harriet Edwards, Strategy Lead at the national disability charity, Sense, join Nuala McGovern to discuss the findings. Author, economist and politician Yanis Varoufakis joins Nuala to discuss being, as he describes it, raised a misogynist. He also talks about the women in his life that helped change that and what he believes lies behind the growth in misogynist attitudes.A new ITV crime documentary, Killer in the House, traces the story of one of the most notorious double murder stories in recent UK history, where a respected Northern Irish dentist, Colin Howell, murdered his wife and his lover’s husband, staged it as a double suicide, and evaded justice for nearly twenty years. Howell was never suspected for the murder of Lesley Howell and Trevor Buchanan, until his confession in 2007, implicating his former lover, Hazel Stewart. Lauren Bradford-Clarke, daughter of Lesley and Colin, talks to us about the impact this crime had on her family.Bonnie Langford has been a British household name for more than 50 years, singing and dancing across many stages in countless musicals, as well as memorable TV roles in EastEnders and Dr Who. Now she's playing Mrs Bird in the much-acclaimed Paddington The Musical in London's West End. She joins Nuala to discuss the joys of treading the boards with that much-loved, life-sized bear. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Simon Richardson

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, the former Greek finance minister, Janus Varifakis, will be with me today to speak about what he calls his liberation from the male chauvinist pig within him. He says as a young boy, he was socialised through misogyny. And he thinks it's still happening for boys that are growing up now. I'm looking forward to speaking with him.

And I'd also be curious to hear from some of the men in our audience. Have you had to challenge your inner misogynist? What made you recognise it? And of course misogyny is not exclusive to men. Are you a woman that has realised that you weren't always rooting for the sisterhood, that you had to perhaps challenge your prejudice? You can text the programme 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note.

That number, 0-3700, 100444. Also today, Bonnie Langford, who plays Mrs. Bird in Paddington the musical. It has rave reviews. What is it about that small bear that has made it such a big hit? Bonnie will also sing for us in studio, so we're in for a treat there. And I'll also be speaking to Lauren Bradford Clark. Her father confessed to killing her mother 18 years after he committed the crime. But let me begin this morning.

with analysis from the BBC's health team, which has shown today that tens of thousands of children in England has spent more than a year waiting for NHS community care. That's services for things like hearing, speech, language therapy, and also disability support. There are around 300,000 children on waiting lists and a quarter of those waiting more than 12 months. Nick Triggle, the BBC's health correspondent, is here with me in studio.

Good morning. Good morning. I'm also joined by Harriet Edwards. She's Strategy Lead at the National Disability Charity Sense. Good morning, Harriet. Morning. Now, let us get into this, Nick. These are waiting lists for NHS community care, as I mentioned.

But what sort of conditions are we speaking about? Well, unlike the hospital waiting lists that everyone knows about, those tend to be for physical illnesses and injuries like hip and knee operations. These waiting lists are more for waiting for therapies. So for hearing services, for eyesight tests, speech and language therapy for young children, there's particularly big waiting lists for those physios and occupational therapy. Children with long-term conditions may be on these waiting lists, those with physical or learning disabilities as well,

maybe they're waiting for equipment or support. And for younger children, they may also be waiting for assessments for ADHD and autism. children, those in secondary school, they tend to be referred into mental health services for those assessments. It's not capturing those. And what we've found is, as you say, a quarter of children are waiting over a year for treatment. And the situation has deteriorated quite markedly over the last three years back at the start of 2023. There were just 12,000 children waiting over a year. It's now over 77,000, so more than six times higher. And that obviously is having an impact.

So significant, those figures, but what do these longer delays mean in day-to-day situations? Well, I mean, obviously they're bad for children's health, but the experts I've been speaking to doctors and those running the services say it's particularly harmful to their development because children are at a crucial stage.

Often these are young children on these waiting lists. And if they're not getting these therapies, there's a risk of them falling behind developmentally. So one person I spoke talking to gave an example of a child waiting, struggling with their hearing, waiting for hearing tests and support. And in class, easy for them to become disengaged and disruptive. And if they're on that waiting list for a year, that's an awfully long time. And the risk is they fall behind at school and then struggle to catch up.

And that affects, they say, their life chances, because it's a crucial stage of their life those early years. Let me bring in Harriet here, who is strategy lead, as I mentioned, at the National Disability Charity Sense. You have a son who's disabled. It took two years to get him the right treatment. Tell us a little bit about your story. That's just one example.

So in that case, that was our paediatric consultant. It took two years to get the right one in our area, and that's simply because there wasn't one available. But actually, when it came to occupational therapy, he didn't even have any of that until he started school. And as Nick said, my son is someone with a long-term condition. He has cerebral palsy. So, you know, this isn't going to go anywhere for him.

This is about long-term best chances for him. And those early years are such a golden opportunity to get it right for children. And lack of therapy, that meant he started school with less support. But ultimately meant that we paid for it ourselves. We did a fundraiser. And that sense, we carried out a survey. We found that that's what a lot of families are having to do. They're having to fork out themselves.

themselves, the pain for these private therapies, when actually it's what they're entitled to. Do you see a difference? How old is your son approximately now, Harriet? He's six now, so we're in year one. Okay, great. But I'm just wondering over those six years, because this is something you will have been up again since he was born. Have you seen a difference over that trajectory? Well, I think we can't underestimate that the pandemic had a big effect here, and I know we're still talking about the pandemic and it feels like a long time ago. But certainly in my local area, I had a real knock on impacts. And also postcode lottery, you know, we say it always, we always talking about it, aren't we? But it's so different from what we hear, from where

people live. In some places, simply the therapies just aren't even there. And in other places, the waiting list is just so long that people either give up or they go and get other support from other places. But that's in the lucky instances. We also hear about families where they're honestly in crisis and it results in families breaking down and marriage is breaking down too. So you're really talking about how it has that ripple effect, I suppose, on the family as well. What would you like to see from the government when you look at these figures both personally and I suppose that larger context as well that you'll have in your role? Well, we're delighted to see that this work has been done.

So thank you, Nick. It's brilliant to see this being highlighted because time again we hear waiting less talked about for adults, don't me? It's often an NHS target, but there's. There's nothing here for children. There's no targets related to this. There's not really any responsibility held to bring together health, education and care in local areas. So we want to see much more joined up thinking from these local community services,

but also nationally from government, what is the plan here? Because these early years are the golden moments for children, and that's when we really have to get it right. What is the plan, Nick? What does the government say they're going to do? Well, the government has said these weights are unacceptable. And as Harriet says, when you look at what's being done for hospital services, that was a manifesto promise to reduce waiting lists and waiting lists are becoming to come down long waits in particular.

There's just, to put this into context, just 2% of people on the hospital waiting list are waiting over a year. For children, 26%. So the government says under its 10-year plan, which was set out last summer, It is investing more and shifting more care into the community, which they say will help address some of these problems. As Harriet says, there needs to be coordination often between health, education and social care. And the government believe that will happen. They're also going to start applying the 18-week waiting time target to community services.

That will start next year and be gradually phased in. And they believe that holding the NHS2 account using that target, as they do with hospitals will also help to make a difference. What about that, Harriet, 18 week? Still a long time for children, isn't it? But I mean, it's good to hear that there's a target of any kind. But I think we have to remember here that it has to be holistic. I'm really thinking about the package, the child at the centre.

So if a child's not getting their hearing assessment and they're starting school, that makes no sense. You need to be thinking about these things logically. It needs to be joined up. And we really need to be thinking what's in the best, interest of that child. And Nick, before I let you go, so the age of children, Harriet's telling her, telling us about her six-year-old, but did have a two-year-weight already in his short life. Most children you're talking about in your analysis are? They tend to be younger children.

That's when obviously in terms of their development parents and the NHS start spotting, perhaps they need support. The age group for these waiting lists do go up to the age of 18, but many of them, we understand our younger children, primary school age children. But what often happens is children may find themselves on waiting lists after waiting lists. So once they get support, and I think Harriet's child was in this situation, maybe from community paediatric service, then they might be referred on to a waiting list for some other support. And so this can be an ongoing issue and challenge for families having to deal with children year after year,

ending up on different waiting lists and it can be incredibly frustrating as well as a risk to the child's development. I'm just thinking in real brass tax, Harry, did you, when you went for help with the service, did you know what the waiting list was? Are you given a number? Oh, like a McDonald's queue.

Well, like, you know what? Do they say, this is, look, you're going to be looking at a year, you're going to be looking at, you know. Yeah. To some extent, but it was way over what we anticipated. And I think you have to remember that parents of disabled children are juggling, not just one waiting list, multiple waitingness. So this was one of many examples for us, you know, O.T, physio, speech and language, pediatrics. So it's not a case of being that as simple as knowing you're waiting for something. And quite often people fall through the net because they miss a text message for something and they get taken off a referral list. Because the admin is so intense and the emotional burden on parents is huge. Here's one that came in from Hazel.

My daughter was put on a CAMS waiting list, as she said, which is child and adolescent mental health services, to discuss having ADHD medication in June of 2022. She became 18 last summer without being seen. She was transferred to the adult team and was told there's an 18-month waiting list for that team. Thanks very much to Nick Triggle. BBC's health correspondent, his analysis is online,

and also Harriet Edwards joining us this morning. Thanks to you both. I want to turn to my next guest. Janis Varifakis, author, economist and leader of Merah 25, a Greek political party. You'll probably remember he was Greece's Minister of Finance from January to July 2015. Just a few months, but within that short time, he did manage to become a controversial figure within European politics. And really, those few months enough to make him world famous. In a recent interview, Yanis talked about his childhood in Greece in the 1960s.

And he described being socialised through misogyny and how he has managed to overcome that, largely down to the women in his life. But he is speaking out because he's worried about those attitudes being on the rise again. He joins me this morning from Athens. Good morning. Good morning. Great to have you on Women's Hour. Now, I saw this clip where you said you were liberated from being a male chauvinist pig. Did you have that tendency, do you think?

We all do. This is not a theory about myself. This is my observation, and if you want me, you know, my conviction that all boys in patriarchal societies, we are being socialized. Even the kindest of male souls, we have been trained to understand what it means to be a man through subtle male contests, creating bonds between us boys, through other in girls, through treating them one moment as prizes to be won, at another moment as inferiors that need to be subjugated, kept in their place. So, you know, this is not overt misogyny, but there is a covert misogyny in not just as children, as boys, but, you know, in every walk of life, I can feel it in the air.

It lingers in the air. And of course it's something we speak about a lot, you know, whether it's male influencers online, Andrew Tate, we've spoken about many times on this programme. But I am interested in you first, even before I move on to boys that are growing up now. You did write a book called Raise Your Soul, a personal history of resistance where you talk about the five women

who taught you to resist bullies, bigots and chauvinists. But do you think that was a challenge or an inner battle? It's constantly a challenge in an inner battle. You talk about even now? Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we men have this propensity towards other women, towards, you know, I walk into a room with men and, you know, when a woman comes in, it is as if these bonds of subliminal trust are broken and need to be reconfigured. So, yeah, I mean, and you know, this is really very oppressive for boys. What my mother taught me, my mother was a feminist, my grandmother was a feminist, my grandmother was a, feminist. What they taught me, and this is why I felt like writing this book, is that, you know, there's nothing more liberating for boys than to understand that we need constantly to try

to keep that male chauvinist pick down within us. Yeah, you know, that's very evocative, as you described that, because you are a man that has walked into so many rooms surrounded by other men, because politics continues to be one of the spheres that is, uh, you're a, um, definitely, no matter a lot of gains can be made, but definitely remains male-dominated. And what is it do you think that is encouraging those bonds to exist or even for men to try and hold onto them in situations like that and to other the woman?

A false sense of power. This sense that to retain your manhood, your masculinity, your power, or your chance to have an advantage in life. You need to maintain this thing. But you know what? It's not just politics. Look, I'm a, I was an academic economist for decades before I became a politician. And I can tell you, I remember, I truly remember, you know,

when I was doing my GCA level in economics, I remember coming across, you know, the model of man that appears in economics textbooks to this very day, every economist in the Bank of England, in the International Monetary Fund. whether they're men or women, and usually they're mostly men. You know, they're raised on this notion of homo-economics, a kind of figure like Robinson Crusoe, who can never resist the tiniest of net gain.

And, you know, if you think back, you know, Robinson-Cruzzo, the homo-economics, the Protestant idol, who manages to, you know, subjectate Friday, to there's not a mention of a woman in it. This is exactly, you know, this is what you find in. textbooks in economics models. I'm just giving this as an example of where this kind of socialisation of men through othering women is prevalent.

It's not just politics, not just the boardrooms. No, I just used that one because particularly with your personal experience, and I think it is pictures and video that we are subjected to every day. You know, look at Davos, for example, just from last week, when you see what they sometimes call family photos. It is mainly men in navy suits and maybe a few women. and between them. I am struck by your term

to try and gain the tiniest of net gains and I will keep that in mind. But I suppose the question is then, Janice, how do you combat that? I guess we can move to boys now because you speak about that as a boys

and perhaps it is better to try and intervene early. You believe that misogyny is on the rise again among young boys and young men. So what would you propose? Well, I do believe that this is not just my belief.

I mean, is there anyone who doubts that the monosphere is back in strength? We see it not just with Trump and the eyes of the nationalist international. We see it all over the place. And, you know, what is happening essentially is that in the last few decades, there was a lid that was placed on top of misogyny, on top of the monosphere. And now the lid is being removed and we can see that, you know, this patriarchal way of socializing boys and men has not gone away. So how do you contact? How do you clash with that?

Well, the way that my mother did it, for instance, was by showing me that there's a better way of being strong. And also that, you know, boys who succumb to the illusion or delusion that somehow they will be more powerful and stronger by subjugating women. They need to be educated out of this. You need to treat them with respect, with understanding, without, of course, succumbing to their toxic masculinity. Yeah, it's interesting.

A couple of things. One, of course, we know how many women voted for Trump. You mentioned U.S. President Donald Trump there. and we know in bigger numbers in the last election for this second term as opposed to his first. We also know on the right, for example, we have Marine Le Penne. I know she is in court at the moment,

but she is very popular in parts of France. Georgie Maloney in Italy. Alice Vidal, for example, in Germany from AFD, alternative for Deutschland. So visually, it is all not, men that we are looking at when you talk about the politics of the right, for example. You just reminded me when I was researching this book. I came across something that my grandmother wrote in the 1920.

She was a member of the Egyptian Feminist Union. And she had quoted Condorcet, the 18th century French scholar, who had said that the truth of the secret of the, the power of the oppressor lies not in his guns, but in the mind of the oppressed. And so, you know, the fact that women can play and have played historically an important role in maintaining and reproducing misogyny is, you know, part of the problem. Now, I remember in the court of power in those political meetings, I remember Christine Lagarde, who was then managing director of the International Monetary Fund,

who's currently the president of the European Central Bank, you know, despite my huge political disagreements with her, I appreciated her and we had a good relationship. I could see that she had, you know, in order to assert herself, she had to be an honorary man in there. But, you know, then you have people like Le Pen. And I would also, I hope you forgive me for that, mention Margaret Thatcher,

who even though she broke new ground as a woman, the first one, Prime Minister, she was a disaster for the feminist movement. She was a disaster for women in Britain. So, you know, these are the contradictions, the delicious contradictions of history. And of course, there are many people with varying opinions on Margaret Thatcher. And I would be really curious for Christine Lagarde to speak to her about how she feels about that title of honorary man as well. But I understand the point that you are putting across.

But coming back to educating boys and young men, for example, in really hard practical terms, how do you do that? Are you thinking programs within schools? You know, we know social media, for example, can sway slash radicalize at times some of these thinking when it comes to toxic masculinity or indeed some of those more extreme views against women online. How would you tackle the issue?

Look, I'm not an expert on this, but what I can tell you is that indoctrination in schools doesn't work. I mean, I went through a system, an educational system that was indoctrinating us to be good Greek Orthodox Christians, and I'm an atheist. In the communist countries, they were being indoctrinated to be good Marxists. They all hated Marxism. So my brief answer to your question is, off the top of my head, through the arts. Nothing civilizes people and boys in particular as efficiently as good theatre. as art, as visual arts, as, you know, just all the things that for the last 30 years of neoliberalism

have been depleted, you know, the soft sciences, the artistic endeavors, you know, all this great emphasis on, you know, the masculine science. I'm a mathematician, so obviously I'm not speaking out against mathematics, but unless you can balance this out through the arts, through drama, through music, I think you stand no chance with simply indoctrinating kids not to be sovereignist. It's so interesting because of course adolescence which was a TV show

that was hugely popular as won all the awards was something which is in the arts that sparked conversation so it's interesting that you say that you are a politician off the left you talk about the popularity of the right but many would say it is

failures of the left that has given rise to popularity of the right that you attach to patriarchal systems for example, do you feel guilt over that? Absolutely. I keep saying this. I'm saying that, you know, we are the reason why the fascists and the misogynists are on the rise. Our failures are failures in the mid-war period, in the 20s and 30s.

You know, my parents taught me that. People on the left are the ones who are responsible for the rise of Nazism and fascism again today. But not just of the left, also the center. I mean, in my view, Trump is the product of Obama. Obama totally and utterly. betrayed the promises he had given to the people who voted for him

and a lot of them voted for Trump after that. So yes, absolutely. We are left. Our failure to harness the discontent has given the sovereignists a leg up. And of course you're characterising Donald Trump in that way,

which is your personal opinion, but some do say with America, and I'd be curious for your thoughts on this, that the pendulum swings, you know, and we've seen that Republican to Democrat or Republican to Democrat. And whether after this term will the pendulum swing again, for example, or will some of the social issues that we've been talking about also change if that political system changes?

Well, the pendulum oscillates, but there is a certain trend over the last 30, 40 years of, I feel it in my bones, were moving steadily in the wrong direction, in the direction of misogyny, in direction of toxic masculinity, in the direction of proto-fascism. You can see that now in the streets of Minnesota. The answer to your question, my answer to your question,

is that none of that is simply going to happen just because if we wait, what the Democrats in the United States are doing, which I think is quite mad, is to think, okay, well, look, let's just wait for Trump to go away and it will all get better. It might, but this is a very impossible way of handling yourself.

We need to fight. We need to be, you know. What does that mean? Well, we need to do politics. Politics is a very dirty business. I entered political life very late in life. I was in my fifties and I can't stand it. But, you know, we don't have the luxury of leaving the political terrain open

to those who want to utilize. the political terrain in order to weaponize misanthropy. But don't you see, for example, people are engaged, obviously, as we see in the streets of various cities in the United States when it comes to those real wedge issues, for example, immigration. Is that not enough? Oh, no, they are magnificent. The people who go out there and face the ice thugs

and use their whistles and make it clear that it's not going to be done on their name whatever it is that ICE are doing this Praetorian Guard by Donald Trump they're heroes of mine that's what I mean when I say we have to fight what the establishment of the Democratic Party does

in the United States which is to sit it out like the shut out the first Donald Trump term that is what I am lambasting and ICE for those who haven't been following is the United States immigration and customs enforcement. Obviously, you also characterize them in a certain way. Others within the United States support them

and support what they are doing. And of course, that's what makes these issues so controversial and contentious, as we've seen over the past few weeks, particularly within the United States. A couple of messages coming in as an old former military perceived as right wing, therefore bloke.

Education is the answer to nearly everything. Julia got in touch, Janice to say, I'd like to speak up for daughters of misogynist mothers. My mother was an only child, well aware her father had wanted a son. She might have redeemed herself by having a son, but instead she got me.

When my brother arrived, he was obviously the favourite. But she often says he should have been the firstborn. I'm sure I'm not alone in having a mother who thought her own sex was inferior. But let me turn back to your mother who was not a misogynist, who was a feminist. Tell me a little bit about her and how she shaped you. She was the first woman to be admitted to enter the School of Chemistry at the University of Athens.

She worked as a biochemist. She then entered politics, local government. She became deputy mayor of my city. And she was my political mentor. And one of the things that she taught me, and this was truly liberation, liberational, emancipatory for. me. I remember once she said to me, I was getting agitated and quite angry with, doesn't matter what. And he said, you know, Janis, once you look for solutions into the abyss that is violence, the abyss swallows you whole. And, you know, those are lifelong lessons.

And one word. How would you make your case for men to follow you and become male allies? Well, you know, seek happiness and happiness can never, never result from subjugating anyone, including yourself. Janice Verifakis, thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning. The book he published is called Raise Your Soul, a personal history of resistance, which speaks about the five women who taught him to be liberated

from being a male chauvinist pick. Good to speak to you, thanks for joining us. Now, a couple more of your messages that were coming in. As a child of the 70s and 80s, I grew up with friends being quite misogynistic. This continued into the 90s and would have been put in the category of banter. Whenever we met up, it came from a place of nostalgia. The person who first called this out was a female business partner. She wouldn't tolerate it, understandably.

And it made me question why I was doing it, because it didn't come from a place of belief. These days, I think I've shed that trait and don't fall into old habits when seeing old mates. So I think women need to call men out more in the workplace especially. but also the men to call out the men, that is me, adding a little bit there. 8444 if you'd like to get in touch. One more from Andrew. I'm really interested in the way men perceive themselves and their inner misogyny. I am a man working in child and adolescent mental health.

Most of my patients are teenage girls. Two things I think about daily. Where are our cultural role models for caring men? Two, masculinity is assessed, judged according to male values, a mental cage of our own making. really interesting Andrew. You found listening to Anna's interesting as well. Now, I want to turn to a new ITV crime documentary.

It's called Killer in the House. And it traces the story of one of the UK's most shocking cases of double murder. Back in 1991, in Northern Ireland, Colin Howell and Hazel Stewart, who had been having an affair, killed both of their partners. Colin's partner was Leslie Howell, Hazel's partner, was Trevor Buchanan. And they staged their murders as a double suicide. Colin and Hazel evaded justice for nearly 20 years

before Colin finally confessed, also implicating Hazel as his accomplice. They were both subsequently sentenced to life in prison. And it's a story that has drawn lots of attention over the years, but the families of those who died so tragically have rarely spoken to the media until now. The three children of Colin and Leslie speak in this documentary killer in the house

about growing up with a father who they later discovered, murdered their mother and also, of course, that enormous impact that the crime has had on their lives. Lauren Bradford Clark is the only daughter, now age 36, and an assistant professor of criminology. Thanks so much for joining us, Lauren.

Thank you very much. I'm 39, but I was knocking a few years off there, but 39. lovely to have you with us. I watched the documentary yesterday. I found it incredibly moving and particularly thinking about little four-year-old you as you were the age, that age

when your mother died. But you still have these memories and feelings about her. Do you want to tell me a bit about your mum, Leslie? Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's remarkable how much she still is very present in my life and really always has been. She was always, always there, but certainly as I've become an adult and learning the truth about what happened to her,

it's allowed me to go on a journey of rediscovery and often discovery for the first time, because as you say, I was four years old. She definitely shapes how I parent my own daughter. I bring in, you know, things like I have beautiful memories of how she romanticised the most mundane day-to-day things. So, for instance, you know, even if it was grocery shopping or, going out for a coffee with a friend. We would get dressed up and she would call it a date. And we had these, you know, she made things very magical that were perhaps. I actually had a friend messaged me the other day saying,

I'm taking my daughter for a date, brackets. I'm going grocery shopping. So here she is also influencing other people now as well. So, yeah, she's very much been a huge part of my life in the background. Very beautiful smile. And you were watching with your brothers. home videos of her and the love that she had for the babies. I mean, it was very evident.

And I was thinking, I hope that's really comforting for you and your brothers to be able to see. I mean, hugely, you know, in a way it's unsurprising because despite the lack of memories, I mean, my brothers don't have any memories. I feel like the love that she gave to us in that short time has already been so imprinted on each of us. definitely being able to see it and her and just how, you know, again, it's something that people have told me so often over the years about how much she loved and cherished her children and really lived her life for her children. And it's lovely to see that playing out. There are a number of stages through this, of course. You have a memory of you and your brother,

one of your brothers, your other brother was too little at the time, being told about your mum's death. Is it okay to go through that? Yeah, I mean, it was the morning of my brother Daniel's second birthday. We were playing on his blue slide, which he had just got for his birthday. And I remember being called into what was our dining room off of the garden to be told that I think I had noticed that she wasn't there that morning. She was always there. She was very much present as a mother constantly mothering us. And so I had noticed that she wasn't there. And when I was called in to be told by, I believe that my father was there and church elders, I can't remember exactly who told us, but that mummy had gone to heaven and that she was gone. And that was it? Pretty much.

I mean, I'm sure there possibly was more. It's what I remember. I remember the whole morning quite vividly. But then, you know, you grew up, and I should say also just for context that religion was a really big part of your household and off your life as well. Hence the church elder that was there as you

were being told this news. But Hazel, who was your father's lover at that point, became a mother figure. You loved her. You could understand exactly, of course, this gaping hole that was there for these small children and gravitating to this woman that was

in your orbit. But growing up, what effect did it have that your mother, I suppose you would have been an older age before you were told the story that she had taken her own life? I mean, it was never concealed from us.

For whatever reason, I hadn't connected that. I hadn't connected that it was suicide until I was 12 years old. Now, I know I'm unique in that. I know my brother Jonathan, who was nine months old when she was killed.

He understood it was suicide. So it wasn't by any means concealed from me. But for whatever reason, self-protection, I'm not sure, or maybe, you know, not wanting to believe. I didn't know that. So I kind of went through this really awful time when I was 12, and I very much had to deal with that by myself.

It wasn't something that I could speak out in the home about my dad by that stage had got remarried, and it wasn't a welcome topic. My mum was not a welcome topic. And so I really kind of navigated going through, you know, the reality then at 12 of realizing it was suicide. So it was incredibly sad, incredibly difficult. And I think the way I look at it is I see that Lauren as different from this Lauren. And who your father remarried was not Hazel.

So that woman was also gone from your life just to give some of those milestones, really, that that has happened, that were happening during your young life. And I do just want to mention as we speak about suicide, that if you are affected by any of the issues that we're speaking about here, there is help and support available on the BBC Action Line website. We move forward, though, that your father felt compelled to confess almost 20 years after he committed the crime with his accomplice, Hazel, his former lover. and I can't imagine what impact that must have had on you. He came forward to the police. They recorded his interview.

It's part of the documentary as well, voiced by an actor. But very, I mean, just shocking to hear. And I don't know what sort of effect that must have had on you. Oh, I almost can't put it into words. You know, shock doesn't cut it. I think, you know, overwhelmingly, obviously, that all the negative truth that came with that, and of course then being propelled into this criminal justice system

and media attention and things like that. But there was this very kind of still quiet voice, even at that time, that made more sense to me. The effect and the impact my mum had had in those short years, in the very moment I heard the truth, there was just something to me that made more sense in that she did not leave us. And of course, suicide is, you know,

it's never that simple that somebody chooses to leave, but certainly realizing that she didn't leave us, she did not choose this, she was stolen from us, was an incredible reality to face. But stolen by your father, who had been part of your life throughout those, decades. I'm wondering what does it feel like to speak out at the length now two decades later? And it's such an extraordinary case that of course there was so much public interest throughout your lives in it.

It was very overwhelming at the beginning because really you don't have any rights to privacy when something like this happens. And I was navigating this as a sort of young woman in my early 20s and by attending court, I wanted to attend court, I wanted to be there for my mom, I wanted to be a face and a representation. But what that means is that I was also then exposed to kind of media, you know, photographers and things like that outside of court. I think at that time, you know, there was a real kind of preying upon the vulnerability and shock to an extent, you know, where there is a public interest in crime and in this case. however it became quite intrusive. And I think when you kind of fear from interest to intrusion, that's when there's an issue.

But in doing this documentary, it's the first time I worked, it was done by an independent production company that was then, has now been broadcast on ITV. And it's the first time anyone's really ever said, what would you like to make? So, you know, there's been many mediatized versions of this. But, you know, and I've been often,

to contribute, but it's very much we are making this and you can or cannot take part it's up to you, but we're making it anyway. Whereas this was very different and I worked for almost three years, I believe, with the filmmaker Bridget Boasley who was just absolutely fantastic

in listening to what it was that we wanted and largely for me anyway, that was to capture just a little bit of who my mum was. So I found it it was an incredible risk to take because of my desire for ultimately, for privacy and

but but to be able to tell a little bit of our stories and I'll and capture my mum a little bit because she's been almost irrelevant in in you know the story other than that she was the victim and along with Trevor and so we wanted to capture her a little bit. You became a criminologist and you also work with the charity support after murder and manslaughter and some might think that that it could compound your pain or your grief, those two paths. But, you know, you obviously take a very thoughtful approach to what you get involved in.

I mean, you know, I often question it myself, particularly when I'm having a bad day, if there are personal, you know, if there's maybe court proceedings, Hazel has initiated court proceedings a number of times throughout her conviction. And I think, why have I done, you know, something? things so close in terms of my professional life. But overwhelmingly, I found it incredibly cathartic to be able to kind of reflect, you know, it's been almost a therapeutic process at times to reflect on my experience. I have a distinctive experience through the criminal justice system. And throughout my doctoral thesis, I really wanted to understand, you know, what is it, you know, generally that

homicide-beraved families encounter when they go through the criminal justice process. And so, So I looked at, you know, what other people experienced, how they interact with the police, what they experience at court and even media in interest and intrusion as well. And yes, it's been really rewarding, actually, to be able to network with support after murder and manslaughter have been incredibly helpful, both on a personal and a professional level. And then also to kind of shine a light and bring as much as I can, bring understanding on what it is that homicide bereaved families encounter, there is so much left to be done in order to kind of address what it is that they need throughout the criminal justice process. For example, your top one would be?

I don't have, I don't know if I have a top one, but off the top of my head. There's often a disconnect between what it is that victims want and what it is that the criminal justice system is trying to preserve. And so for instance, you know, family liaison officers or police officers who are introduced, you often hear the family are being supported by specially trained officers. When I spoke to families and certainly my experience as well as it, it's a complete lottery, what type of an officer, both as an individual and how the police force itself, prioritises families and the information that's given to families. Often the information that families want us to do with, you know, when can I see them?

You know, of course there is a coronial process that's initiated where there has to be an autopsy. And of course there's preservation of the criminal trial. But I feel like the disconnect is often that families want to see them, much like you would want to see any family member in that type of horrible time. And to be able to kind of prioritize, letting them see the family. You know, you have such a variety of reactions where some people are given priority to go and visit their loved one, where other people are told, you can't, their evidence and things like that,

these horrible kind of dehumanising things that are told. And so some people's experience with family liaison officers are incredibly wonderful and really feel very clear about what their role is, but at the same time, very supported, where others feel like they absolutely compound what they're going through in that time. Lauren, Bradford-Clarke, I want to thank you for sharing your experience with us.

I do want to let people know, killer in the house. The murders of Leslie Howell and Trevor Buchanan is on ITV1 and ITVX tomorrow at 9. And also I want to read a statement given to us by the Department of Justice. A spokesperson said Leslie Howell's death is a heartbreaking tragedy and our thoughts remain with her family and loved ones. The government inherited a criminal justice system that too often sidelines victims. That's why we're delivering reforms that put victims first, improving how they're treated, supported and communicated with,

while building a faster, fairer system that works for them, not against them. Thank you all so for your messages that are coming in in response to Ennis Farrakos. Here's one, an anonymous listener said, despite having a feminist mother and the most unshovenistic father, I can imagine, I feel even in my 50s,

I'm constantly working to free myself of attitudes and values instilled by school, workplace, media and society, both covertly and overtly, not just with regard to women, but any other in enforcement. converted commas group. I did ask for some of our male listeners

to get in touch this morning and you are. Thank you for that. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. Now, a treat for us all. Paddington, that much-loved little bear from Darkest Peru. As you might know, is on stage. Paddington, the musical, opened in London. Rave reviews, it's perfect, as people have been saying. Booking into next year already.

Most performances sold out. Bonnie Langford plays Mrs Bird, a housekeeper to the Brown family, who find Paddington after he arrives from Peru at Paddington Station, and they take him in. I know many of you will know that. But Bonnie, of course, is known for her long, illustrious career in theatre, television, film, radio, in the UK, in the US, and started just at the tender age of seven in Gone with the Wind at the Theatre Royal in Drury Lane, her first TV appearance at six.

I loved watching him in Jess William, Bonnie. I wasn't six then. actually. I was 12. I was very, I thought, oh my goodness, I'm playing half my age. What is this? You were pretend to be six. It was very exciting to see a redhead on television and you're a little redheaded girl as well. Although I'm glad as Elizabeth shouldn't have been redheaded. She was actually blonde and I now actually wish I had worn a week. Do you? The only thing I regret. Why? Because I couldn't then take her off. Ah, I see. Well, we're very glad to have you. What about this production of Paddington? How do you? How do you? How do you? How do you understand its extraordinary success?

Well, I think it's something, Paddington is beloved, and I think it's one of those characters that not only is it beautifully written, but also it represents so much good and not in a sugary sweet way, in a realistic way. There was an age of innocence, and that Paddington represents how we really should or could behave better in this world,

the main thing being kindness. He represents someone coming from a different place, a completely different environment, who is literally trying to learn, who has inquisitiveness, who has wonder. He still has wonder in his life. He gets things wrong. He gets into trouble, but he never means it.

And so it represents that part of us, that child within us, all that young sort of open-minded person over our lives, we become so set in our ways and we become so judgmental. And Paddington isn't that. He just says, this is the world and I want to know all about it and I want to be incorporated with this. And it just gives us that sense of wonderment again.

And also on top of that, so many of us read those books when we were young. It takes us back to a place of nostalgia. recently Michael Bond just, well, posthumously spent his, had his hundredth birthday. The books were written in 1958, but they're very timeless. The show is very timeless. It just basically, totally dives into this world that it's not perfect, but it's so lovely. Tell us about Mrs. Bird. I mean, we're familiar with her from books and from the film, but tell us about your Mrs. Bird.

Well, my Mrs. Bird is quite different because we, couldn't work out. So in the books, Michael Bond described Mrs. Bird as the lodger. In the films, she was played beautifully by Julie Walters, but she was called The Housekeeper. In this one, she's the lodger again. And we're not really sure why. And we have this line in the beginning where Mrs. Bird is introduced to Paddington. And Mr. Brown says, well, she got lodged somewhere in the past and has never dislodged again. We think she came with the house, that they inherited the house, this lovely house in Notting Hill. And that Mrs. Burrower, was just part of it.

So I think she represents this older generation of someone who's just there, who's there as the anchor, who's a little bit quirky. She's always saying, in our production, Mrs. Bird is always saying, when I was this, when I was that, when I played this, when I was when I was a captain, when I was head of etiquette at Buckingham Palace. And then you never quite know whether she's telling the truth or whether she's got some fantastical, magical life in her head. And I think that's rather wonderful as well.

I remember when I was little, we had a lady who would come and look after us. A lady who does, they used to call her. And, you know, her name was Mrs. Wilson, but we called her Mrs. Wush. And I think my Mrs. Bird is based a bit on Mrs. Wush. A lady who does. I love that term as well, Bonnie. Now, with the music, Tom Fletcher of McFly has written the music for the show. Yes, indeed.

We're going to hear your main solo number. It's never too late. Although it's a bit too early, because you're making me sing this at... Listen, I need to like give you props. Not only are you doing eight shows a week. We're in here bright and early to rehearse as well. To wake up the voice. I just want everybody to know how hardworking you are

if they had any concerns at all. But this song, the message of it? It's never too late. And that's true. It's saying it's, you know, what is great is that we have such a focus in this world today on being young and that you get to a certain age where you have this new superpowers. called invisibility. Not always that powerful. And I think it's basically her saying in the show, I do a duet, it's a duet with Taryn Callender who plays Grant, who's another character who gets

overlooked, he gets treated quite badly. And so she's basically saying to him and to everybody else, it's never too late to change your mind, to live your life, to decide to go, I'm just going to have my life as my adventure. And so Paddington himself has this effect on every character in the show to make them look at their lives and go, do you know what, I've got one life, I'm going to live it. Okay, well, let us hear you, buddy. Yeah, you're going to make your way over.

I'm going to make my way over to our spot for the song. Pop your headphones on there. They're always a good thing to have. Also, we've got the show going on and we're doing, you know, business is great, but there are always tickets available if you refresh your button. Refresh the button and you might get a ticket. It might get looking. It is the hottest ticket in town.

It has to be said. Okay. We'll take a moment and this is, it's never too late. Wow. What? Come back over into the desk, funny. That's amazing. Talk about stealing the show and singing it in a Scottish accent as well.

I do. We've got a lot of Scots people in the show, although I did have a dialect coach as well. So I'm just hoping that I've got it right. And hearing all these Irish accents as well, I'm thinking, Don't listen to that. I love, I mean, what a treat for me as well to have you up close and personal doing this. But your whole schedule, I mentioned the eight shows,

we're hearing the music. There's even you doing the splits. Oh, yeah, I do that as well. It's actually rather nice to be able to have my breath to do those last notes because normally I'm literally going, it's good on the lungs. But, you know, the show is brilliant. The show, it delivers so much.

I think a lot of people think of it's going to be a kid's show. It's absolutely not. It's very funny as well. There was something I was reading about Michael Bond. He said that he chose a bear because the character could embody both the innocence of childhood and the sophistication of adulthood. And I thought about you in the relation to Charles Star in a world of adults, but now an adult in this, Paddington originally conceptualised for children. You're kind of straddling those worlds. And you said it's like a marmalade experience.

It is a marmalade experience. experience. It's sweet, but it has a bit of bitterness about it. And I think that's what's really important is that we're delivering hope, but at the same time, we're saying it in a realistic way. It's not. And as I say, the show is really funny. It's really funny. And that's what Paddington is as well, because life is funny. And I think we need that lighthearted feel these days. It's very deep. People cry. Literally, they cry. Yes, I know. I have to say, It sounds like an absolute treat for anybody manages to get that ticket, to go and see Bonnie Langford as Mrs. Bird, of course, housekeeper.

Lodger, exactly this time for the Brown family. It's on at the Savoy Theatre in London, currently booking until February 2027. And the cast album will be released by Decca in March of this year. Now, Bonnie was saying never too late. Tomorrow, what about being a debut author at the age of 62? We're going to meet Laura Dickerman, who did just that. Join me again, same time, tomorrow.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims? Dehumidify it. Standing discs. Nail polish. From supplements claiming to boost your mind and body. I've seen so many claims about creatine.

To fake tans promising a safe, streak-free glow. I really like it. I'm Greg Foote and my BBC Radio 4 show Slice Bread is perhaps. to separate more science fact from marketing fiction. I would tend to lean towards it being a positive. All our suggestions come from your emails or voice notes, even if you're a bit under the weather. Hello, Greg. I want to know about cough mixture. I'm finding out the answers in my new series of sliced bread, available first on BBC Sounds.