Woman's Hour - Yasmeen Lari, Pakistan's first female architect, Relationships under pressure

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

The Scout Association is not doing enough to protect and safeguard children from child abuse, that’s according to two young women who have set up a website which launches tomorrow (Tuesday) asking for people to share their own testimonies of abuse. They are also calling on the Government as well as the Scout Association to do more. On Tuesday BBC Radio 4’s File on Four investigates the Scouts handling of such cases. Yasmeen Lari, Pakistan's first female architect, talks to Nuala on being awarded the Royal Gold Medal for Architecture 2023, her work in disaster zones and helping the poorest communities impacted by climate change.The last in our series Under Pressure about how couples cope when their relationship comes under great strain. An American study from 2010 found that couples who had experienced stillbirth were at a 40% greater risk of their relationship ending. Jo Morris went to meet Mustafa and Hawra who told their story.Presented by Nuala McGovern Reporter Jo Morris Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today, allegations of abuse in the Scouting Association in the UK. The founders of a new group and website, Yours in Scouting, are calling for new measures to ensure safeguarding in the Scouting Association, which they allege is not robust enough to protect young people. Their website will post the experiences of those who say they were abused while in the Scouts.

So we'll hear their proposals to ensure safeguarding and also hear the response from the Scouting Association. Also, as you were hearing in the news, Ofsted has said that school inspections are going to change following the suicide of headteacher Ruth Perry. We'd love to hear from you. Are you a teacher?

Will these changes change how you feel about Ofsted inspections? To get in touch, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. You can also send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number

03700 100 444 and we will speak about that issue in just a moment. Today, we also have Yasmeen Lari, who tomorrow will be awarded the Royal Gold Medal for Architecture 2023. She is Pakistan's first female architect and now at this point espousing barefoot architecture with remarkable results, we'll explain. And we also continue our series Under Pressure, hearing from couples as difficult life situations test their relationship.

But let me turn now to the announcement by Ofsted that school inspections in England are to change after the suicide of headteacher Ruth Perry and they're leading to calls for reform. There will be an overhaul of its complaint system and also will revisit some schools judged inadequate more quickly. Where inspectors raise concerns about how children are kept safe, the school and its leadership are automatically given the grade inadequate. Now, Ofsted said, inspectors will revisit these schools within three months and the school can be regraded if it has addressed the concerns. Ofsted's chief inspector, Amanda Spielman, told the Today programme and addressed the concerns. Ofsted's Chief Inspector Amanda Spielman told the Today

programme and defended the decision. Many schools have some weaknesses in this area and in those cases we report that safeguarding is effective with minor weaknesses. We're talking here about the schools where we found the most serious problems where we simply cannot say we'll hold off and see if you fixed it in a couple of months' time. It would also be very difficult from the point of view of parents not to be transparent,

not to report what we find. Ofsted there. Well, Professor Julia Walters, Ruth Perry's sister, said the changes were a step in the right direction to ensure other headteachers were not put under

the intolerable pressure that her sister had faced. And she's not alone in her concerns about today's announcement. I'm joined by Simon Kidwell, president of the NAHT, the National Association of Headteachers, the School Leaders Union and a primary headteacher for the past 18 years. So you were listening, Simon, to the full interview on the Today programme of Amanda Spielman. What's your response to her comments? Yes, good morning, Nuala. I think the changes are modest. I think the changes are sensible, the small changes they're making, but they are nowhere near going to address the

concerns that we have as a profession around the negative impact that often spaces are having, both on school leaders, but also classroom teachers. So what is your main concern when it comes to the changes? What would you be calling for as your number one? Well I think our number one is a review of the grading system. We know that the grading system is inaccurate. We heard this morning from Julie Waters saying that Cavishon Primary School where Ruth Perry was a school leader, had a good off-stead pilot inspection where there were no safeguarding concerns back in 2019. And then we see a few years later, the same leadership team, the same arrangement of safeguarding, judged inadequate. So I think there's some inaccuracy in the system.

And I've been the headteacher of schools which have been graded from inadequate to outstanding. And actually, those gradings don't broadly tell how parents understand what's going on in the school so let's have a review of those gradings as a number one. Well with the grading as I was mentioning to my listeners that if there is a safeguarding issue automatically they get an inadequate as their grading as the word don't you think there should be zero tolerance when it comes to assessing the safeguarding of children? Absolutely. I think safeguarding is the most important thing we do day to day. We are seeing schools that have not been inspected for 10 years. I talked to a colleague this morning whose school was last inspected in 2011

and they are not going to be inspected until 2025 was the announcement this morning in terms of those windows. So I think if Ofsted are really serious about safeguarding, let's do it every year. Let's have an annual safeguarding check. That may not be Ofsted, it may be another organisation, but clearly going five, six, ten years without a safeguarding inspection isn't good enough. But every year you would be calling for that? I'd want more than regular safeguarding inspections, absolutely. Ones which are less high stakes,

where you can actually put things right quite quickly. We know from the report at Cabochon that this could have been put right quite quickly. When I take my car in for an MOT, if it's not working, I get a chance to put it right very quickly. And I'd want to see that brought into the system where safeguarding is actually inspected far more regularly because 10 years is far too long.

Yes, I understand that. But with the safeguarding issue, shouldn't that word, if it's a word, if it's a sentence, we can talk about whether that makes a difference, but shouldn't the safeguarding of children be reflected in that review or are you looking for something separate? I'm just trying to understand fully. I think we need a conversation about should safeguarding be taken away

from the full inspection that we have currently because clearly doing it so infrequently isn't good enough. We need to have more regular checks on how schools are doing with safeguarding. Your school was inspected most recently in April.

I'd be really curious what it was like for you, for your staff, what happens, what's the feeling within those four walls? Firstly, it happened that we got the phone call on the 18th of April. It was a huge relief to get that phone call because we've been waiting for 18 months. And the previous week before Easter, I'd been in the Lake District with a group of pupils on Lake Windermere canoeing. I really didn't want the phone call when I was in the middle of Lake Windermere on a canoe.

So it was a relief to get it. We then had four inspectors visit the school for two days. It was the most intense inspection I've had. I've had 10 inspections. What happened? They give you a phone call and then they spent two hours on the Monday talking about our school and they get a good picture of, do we know the school very well? And then they come in and they now, the new methodology means they do something called a

deep dive and they do a deep dive into different subjects and they did six in our school into different subjects so once the head teachers have had that phone call conversation with Ofsted on the Monday they then come into school and the accountability then shifts and it shifts on to classroom teachers who then as have to go and work with the inspection and it shifts onto classroom teachers who then have to go and work with the inspection team to show that we're doing a really good job in geography, for example, or a really good job in history. So it's a very different way of inspecting and it puts a lot of pressures on class teachers compared to previous frameworks. But with that, I mean, are people, if they get the heads up that this is going to happen, is it really a true reflection of what's happening in that classroom the rest of the year?

I think they don't spend much time in classrooms looking at quality of teaching. The main vehicle for inspecting now is the quality of the curriculum good enough. And then Ofsted's view is that if the quality of the curriculum is really good, then the quality of teaching is going to be good and other things. I'm not sure that's the particularly accurate methodology, but it's what they're using currently. You know, I was struck by the secrecy around the grading.

Amanda Spielman has said on BBC Breakfast today, we're reinforcing that heads absolutely can talk to colleagues, governors and other people around them about inspection outcomes. It's not something they have to keep as a personal secret. Was that something that you felt pressure about previously? You're told not to talk about it. I mean, our governing body knew and I think it's unfair on the staff because the staff have worked so hard and around this and often have been at the chalk face when it comes to inspection. So I think you should be able to share the broad grade

with your staff. I went and gave an indication that the inspection, the judgments of the inspectors closely matched my own staff evaluation of the school. So I think the teachers would have been able to read between the lines on that comment that I made. Yes, and I understand in the very sad case with Ruth Perry, I think

she had told her sister but felt a great burden about even sharing that and feeling... Go ahead. A dreadful burden. I mean, imagine being at school as a pupil, being the deputy head of that school.

Imagine the burden and the turmoil she went through having to keep that quiet and feeling that she was personally responsible for that grade. We all feel as school leaders that it could have been us when we hear the story of Ruth. And it makes us immensely sad when we reflect on it. And they're saying that that should not be kept a personal secret in future. The Education Secretary, Gillian Keegan, said the changes announced on Monday were a really important step and that Ofsted was right to continue to evolve to raise school standards. Would you agree with that? It's a step in the right direction? Yeah, I like the word evolve. I think there's further conversations to be had, especially around the gradings, especially around the impact it's having on teachers with the current framework. So let's say this is the start of a conversation because the steps that we've seen are a step in the right direction,

but they are nowhere near enough to go and go and stop the anxiety around inspection that features highly across the system. Simon Kidwell, thank you so much. I want to turn to the Scout Association next. My next guests believe they are not doing enough to protect and safeguard children from child abuse. They have set up a website, Two Young Women, which launches tomorrow, Tuesday. These women are asking for people to share their own testimonies of abuse

and are also calling on the Scout movement to account for its past failings and ensure that they take action to prevent the abuse of young people in the future. The Scout Association has paid out more than £6 million in compensation to survivors of historical abuse in the past 10 years. And on tomorrow, BBC Radio 4's File on 4

will investigate the Scouts' handling of such cases. I was joined by Lucy Pincott. Now she is one of the founders of the website Yours in Scouting. She alleges she was sexually abused by a young Scout leader when she was just 13. And also by Abbey Hickson. She's a solicitor at Bolt Burden Kemp, the firm that has

represented survivors of abuse in civil claims and brought numerous cases against the Scout Association here in the UK. I asked Lucy to begin with why did she want to set this website up? So I set this website up alongside another survivor of abuse in the Scouts and we both felt that when we'd reported to the Scouts we hadn't got a satisfactory service from them as survivors. We felt that every kind of step they took was something we had to really, really push for. And they weren't kind of open, transparent and, you know, working in a way to protect us. We felt that everything they did was in order to protect them it was always the

kind of bare minimum and the worry is that kind of with this kind of the bare minimum attitude that we seem to have they're not they're not doing enough to protect children and they're not able to create an environment where safeguarding is paramount because if that's the culture at head office you know they're relying on volunteers in the field, it's going to be very, very difficult to have a stringent safeguarding system when the head office team is still, you know, acting in a way that makes survivors feel like they're not being listened to. And of course, I will read some statements that we've got from the Scout Association as well, Lucy, but what happened to you? You joined the Scouts in 2006. Yes, I was brought into the Scouts in 2006 by another

member of the Scout unit. And quite quickly, he got me to be part of the older unit, which I actually wasn't old enough to be in yet, but he managed to get agreement from the leaders. And over the next several months, he groomed and sexually abused me. And unfortunately, that culminated in him raping me several times over a period of months. And obviously, that was a really negative experience for me. And it wasn't what obviously is absolutely not what the Scouts should be about and has taken away from my life when going to Scouts is something that should enrich your childhood. And I'm really sorry that happened

to you, but you have decided now to set up this website to try and give voice to other people that were in the Scouts? Yeah, so from, I worked with Bolt, Byrd and Kemp over quite a period to take action against the Scouts. And after I'd done that, they compiled a map of all the convictions across the UK. And from that map, we can see that there are hundreds and hundreds of, you know, incidents of sexual abuse across the UK. And unfortunately, that map is only able to show cases that have been reported and have had a charge. So with the kind of statistics on that we know for people coming forward and talking about these kind of things, we know there must be many, many more cases out there. And we want people to be able to share their case. And we want to be able to use

that in order to force the scouts to see the problem and to address the problem as a whole instead of individual cases which is what we found very difficult when we dealt with them everyone I know that's dealt with them it's always an isolated case and unfortunately you know by seeing the bigger picture we feel the Scouts can address the issue much better. And I should say we did ask the Scout Association to come on the programme, but they declined the opportunity. Among various statements they have sent us, they do say that almost half a million young people

enjoy the Scouts every week in the UK. And they say nothing's more important than their safety, any form of abuse is abhorrent and that they're deeply sorry for anyone who has suffered because of their actions. And they do say that they have robust safeguarding policies, training and procedures in place that are reviewed every other year by the NSPCC following three independent reviews that took place since 2007. But let me turn to you, Abby, because Lucy is outlining some of what she has seen so far.

What are you seeing? We're seeing a very similar picture in that the scouts aren't taking full responsibility for the failures in safeguarding. And in Lucy's case in particular, at no point did they ever admit liability for her case. They never even provided a formal response to the claim despite settling out of court. And that's a common fee, even when bringing a claim, not having that admission of liability is actually really damaging to survivors because one of the things that is incredibly important to them is having their case heard what happened to them acknowledged and just for the Scout Association to hold their hands up and recognize their failures

now Lucy's case was as is the case with many of these cases was brought on two separate legal grounds one is something called vicarious liability um and in order to prove that you have to prove that they um employed the scout leader um in a role with him that was similar to employment, and of course they were. And also that what happened to Lucy was closely connected to that role that they gave to him. And because it happened at scout meetings and on scout camps, of course that close connection was there. So in our view, Lucy had a really strong case against the

Scouts and she also had a strong case against them in negligence because they failed on so many counts. I mean, they appointed him as a leader to the Scouts without even vetting him. There was no supervision of him and ultimately they just failed to protect her from the abuse. But I think one of the more damaging aspects of their response was when Lucy did actually complain to them, the way in which they dealt with it, and this is something that's a really common theme amongst my clients, is we see that there's this culture of victim blaming and

trying to almost protect the abuser and their reputation rather than actually doing the right thing. So despite the narrative that they put forwards, what we're seeing is that the way they're dealing with the litigation, is that the way they're dealing with the litigation, but also the way they're responding to individuals, just isn't satisfactory, unfortunately. Let me turn back to you then, Lucy. Did you feel anyone else was aware of what was happening to you within the Scout Association at that time? During my abuse in 2006, I absolutely believe

that people were aware. It felt like an open secret within the group that something was going on. I don't know exactly to what level people were aware, but as someone now who has responsibilities for safeguarding, I know that if a child was in that situation in my care, I would know something was going on. And I would, I recognise things that I did during that period of abuse that should have been picked up on. You decided to go to the police 10 years later. What was it that triggered you to do it at that time? So I actually did some training. I did independent volunteering, which is a care thing for children in care where you visit them. And as part of this, I did child sexual exploitation training. And that was a kind of a really light bulb moment for me because I'd never had the words to go to the police.

I knew that I'd been abused. I knew that I hadn't agreed to what had been happening to me and I was too young. But I never had I never knew what I hadn't agreed to what had been happening to me and I was too young, but I never had. I never knew what I could go to the police and say. And during it completely came out of the blue, that training. I went along not knowing exactly what the training was going to be about that day. And we had this this afternoon on child sexual exploitation and they read out the description of of what that means. And it was just as if someone was saying to me you know this is what's happened to you this is you know these are the words that you need to explain and what really forced me was during the session i did have to leave for some of the session because i

was so distressed but during this part of the session i was there they talked about how it isn't usually an isolated case that you're not usually the only person that someone who commits these offences commits them towards. I understand. So with this, police were in touch with a local adult Scouts volunteer in 2016. That's when you reported 10 years later. Neither the police nor local leaders told Scout Central, this is according to the Scouts Association, told the Scout Central UK safeguarding team, they say they've removed that volunteer that you allege abused you from the Scouts.

But let me turn to then what you want to happen. And I understand, Abby, there are more women that are coming forward now. The vast majority of the complaints of abuse are against boys or that may be men now, for example. Women have been admitted to the Scouts since the 70s, but much more of an influx in later years, more like Lucy, for example. Let's talk through the way that you feel this could be rectified. When I looked at what yours in Scouting is the website, some of the stuff that you're calling, for example, are asking for, there's a campaign for adult staff and volunteers in uniformed youth organisations to be included in the position of trust definition,

therefore making it illegal for them to have relationships with 16 or 17 year olds that could be in their care. Let's talk about that a little bit. Why is that important, Abby? I think all these changes are so important. And the most important thing is just this culture of transparency and dealing with complaints properly because when my clients are speaking with the scouts they're feeling like their their cases aren't being investigated

properly they're not being spoken to and and if they're not even um finding out how this abuse was able to take place then they're just not properly equipped to to prevent it happening again in the future um so as well as as the the uh you know the campaign um that yours and Scouting are wanting to put forward. I think also on the ground, there's simple things that actually the Scouts could do. It's about having this conversation. They need to hold their hands up and recognise that this is a real issue within their organisation. And say it's been a problem. And is it, I mean, from what you've come across, Abby, for example,

is it about relationships with 16 to 17-year-olds? No, not always. A lot of my clients were abused when they were much younger. And it could be from 9, 10, 11 years old. Sometimes a little older. But, you know, these are very young children. And I think it's really important to point out as well that child abuse is so incredibly traumatic. Survivors can be left with lifelong psychiatric difficulties that you can suffer things like anxiety depression post-traumatic symptoms you know and it can take them so many years

to come forwards and actually Lucy was quite unusual because she came forward relatively soon we often see people who aren't able to come forward for maybe 20 30 years and different things can trigger that often it's um if they have children of their own um or if they have children who reach the age that they were then when they were abused or even perhaps the death of a parent because they never want their parents to know of the abuse that they suffered. And you mentioned earlier about the fact that girls are now able to join the Scouts. It's only really as recently as 2007 when it became compulsory for all Scout groups to accept girls into all sections and because of the amount of time it does take um for people um often to reach a point in their life where they feel able to come forwards and to talk about it really do think that

it's likely that more more women will be coming forwards in in the future um and what lucy's doing with yours in scouting is it's to say to people out there if you haven't yet disclosed you're not alone and and there are you know there there are support networks out there for you and I just think that's that's really important. Lucy let me turn back to you that is really interesting about the position of trust definition that you talk about. There were no charges, prosecution or conviction brought against your alleged abuser. You say he was 18 at the time. The Scout Association says the person concerned in this case was reported to be under 18 at the time. It says the young person did not become an adult volunteer leader

and they have prevented him from ever becoming one. But do you think that position of trust would have changed your experience? Not necessarily for me. However, I think it would have given an extra layer of protection because it's that official position of trust and people knowing that there are more significant rules about it and it's not the normal you know the normal everyday you know 19 year old necessarily meeting a 16 year old obviously that wasn't my case but it still it will take away that opportunity and it

will add an extra layer of protection and more awareness in young leaders that they must not do that. And actually that it's not, you know, it's not etiquette. It is the law that they don't do that. Also, you're looking forward to create a paid safeguarding lead position in each Scout county in the UK to be responsible for monitoring the conduct of volunteers and ensuring the safeguarding escalation pathway doesn't go via the district or county commissioners as these are voluntary roles. Tell me more about why you think that's important. So we feel it's really important to have a paid role that is responsible for safeguarding. So typically in kind of educational settings, they'll have a designated safeguarding

lead. We want something similar to that for each district and or each county for the scouts because that will give the opportunity for people to report to someone whose job it is to take this further and to take this seriously to create that you know the atmosphere of safeguarding and report things and make those right referrals and adequate training to do so that is going to empower the scouts to make sure that their safeguarding is much more rigorous. And it's going to be more likely that things will get back to head office in a timely fashion or be referred to the correct outside agencies. Right, which you feel did not happen in your case. Continuing with yours in scouting,

you are also asking for the Scout Association to set up a lived experience board as part of their governance. So accountable for following through on safeguarding and also require that the Scout Association and Girlguiding are subject to an inspection regime similar to that of Ofsted inspections for educational institutions. Now, I know there's a lot of discussion about Ofsted inspections in the news at the moment. But when I look at all these aspects, do you worry, Lucy, that in fact it may become too unwieldy, too bureaucratic, too expensive for this organisation to in fact continue? And maybe, you know, young boys, young girls who have, you know, grown in that organisation that have not, thankfully, had the experiences that you have had, that all that might be missed. That is absolutely something that will need to be taken into account about how it will be funded and how these things will happen. But actually, you know, the Scouts and all children's organizations can't enrich children's life until those children are safe safety has to be absolutely paramount so finding a way to fund

this whether it is through extra fundraising or you know looking at maybe having larger groups but less frequently you know less often that might be a way to do it the problem is you know without this there is no guarantee in my opinion that these children are being looked after adequately and like i said without them being safe you can't then go on to enrich their lives you need that guarantee of safety before you can move forward to do things to to give them that brighter future which absolutely i agree the scouts can do wonderful things. And there are people that have fantastic experiences through the Scouts. It's making sure that every child has a fantastic experience.

Abi, let me turn back to you. Do you expect this to be, I don't know, a game changer for the Scouting Association? Do you worry about some of those issues that Lucy was addressing there? Yeah, we do. And of course, as Lucy points out, scouting can be such a wonderful thing for so many children. But I do think that there are changes that can be made, that can be funded, that will make a real difference. And one of the things, just going back to what Lucy said about the reporting and having a paid person to go in and assess what's happening, it's so important because one thing that we see time and again

is that these abusers, they're often just, they're so highly manipulative, they're opportunistic, but they're also incredibly, usually very well-liked. They're pillars of the community. The children like them, the parents like them. They've created this persona which allows them to do what they do. And that makes the reporting so much more difficult. So I think it really does need that for speaking to me. I do also want to read some more of a statement that the Scout Association did give to us. They say, we believe volunteer leaders should be held to the same safeguarding standards expected of paid employees.

Prevention is our priority. Every one of our 143,000 volunteers must undergo safeguarding training when they take up a role with the Scouts and adult volunteers' leadership activities are restricted until that initial training is complete. The test at the end of the training requires volunteers to score 100% to pass. Volunteers must refresh their training every three years. We have systems in place to address non-compliance with training, including suspending volunteers. Every year, our Safeguarding Committee reviews our safeguarding policies and training in its totality. This year, as part of our proactive external scrutiny, the NSPCC has assured our training, content and safeguarding policy.

And this will be repeated every two years going forward. We've gone through, of course, what both of you would prefer to have as well. That is Lucy Pinkott, who we have been speaking to, and also to Abbie Hickson for speaking to us here on Woman's Hour. I also would like to read the government statement. A government spokesperson in response to Lucy's petition, which we went through some of those aspects. The government responded, we expect charities to be a safe space for everyone, which means that they must maintain the highest standards of safeguarding procedures to protect young people from harm.

Where concerns are raised, they should be treated very seriously and be promptly acted upon. The government is moving quickly to introduce mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse in England, which will make it a legal requirement for those who work with young people to speak out if they suspect a child is being sexually abused or exploited. Thanks very much to Lucy and Abby. And you can hear more on this on File on 4, 8pm on Tuesday, or available immediately on BBC Sounds.

And you can also find links of support on the Woman's Hour website. Now, a couple of weeks ago, we talked about women and electric cars. Lots of you told us about your relationship with your car for a summer series, Women on Wheels. We want to know what particular cars have meant to you in your life,

the stories or the phases of your life that thinking about that car brings up for you. We also want pictures. You can text Women's Hour on 84844 and on social media, it's at BBC Women's Hour, or indeed email us through our website. We'd love to hear from you. Now I want to turn to the last in our series, Under Pressure. It's about how couples cope

when life happens. And to let you know in advance, this episode is about baby loss. An American study from 2010 found that couples who had experienced stillbirth were 40% at a greater risk of their relationship ending.

So what does such a traumatic loss do to a couple and how does it change their relationship? Well, Joe Morris went to meet with Mustafa and Hora in December 2021. They met at a community event more than 15 years ago. What was Mustafa's first impression of Hora? Very nice. Very nice.

I know. I'm more out of you. very nice very nice so i'm quite a conservative guy so i don't always talk about these things what was the community event it was a faith related event and most of how i was leading on it you get to know someone when they're under stresses and you're organizing and things are going wrong so you get to know how people adapt and how to deal with different situations i think that's very important in a relationship so what did you learn about horror under pressure very cool about it i remember uh doing something really crazy so there's a big banner that you need to put up get a ladder and really safe make sure that she was up three chairs trying to put a banner she got it done it was up and it didn't drop as well so it's i think something clicked you know i think our ideas and my interest in community affairs politics faith we're both from iraq

we got married literally a year later so we're a bit old school sometimes, and so I think I made the formal approach so that I'd be interested. To horror or to a father? There's ways of sending a message through friends, number one, and then I went through the father, just out of respect. And what do you do for your job, Mustafa? So now I run an interfaith charity.

I run a charity that kind of represents the different faith communities in London. So I work City Hall and work with the Met Police and other public authorities. In times of crisis, you pull together. When you got married, what did you think lay ahead for you both? First thing that comes to your mind is having children. We all expect to, as soon as we want a child, to have a child straight away. It doesn't happen quite like that. It was a big milestone for us to have our first. It was a really lovely experience. I think it was in the birthing centre, so it was a natural birth.

It felt special. It was perfect. It was perfect, yeah. When I saw her, I told Mustafa, can we call her Jannah, which means heaven in Arabic. So beautiful, cute, little thing. Yeah. Jannah was about two years old, and we thought maybe we could expand our family

and have another child. And I was pregnant straight away with my second daughter. My water is broken. I forgot what happened. straight away with my second daughter. My waters broke. I forgot what happened. In January 2018, Hora's waters broke. We rushed her to hospital.

The doctors checked the heartbeat. Everything is okay. And the next morning, everything seemed to be fine. They were saying everything's good. There's no... This happens sometimes and everything's okay. At that point, I was about 32 weeks pregnant. And they said they want her to stay longer, 36 weeks.

And they said they want to keep me in for a few days. I think on the Wednesday, we met with the doctors and they said they were very happy with everything. But at night, I started feeling some pain. The first thing I did was to text Mustafa and tell him. So where were you, Mustafa, at this point? I was abroad. I had a work-related meeting in the Vatican. In the Vatican?

Yeah. There was nothing for anyone to do, really. He would come during the day, see me, and I thought, you know, if anyone can help me, it's the doctors and the midwives here, no one else. You go to your meetings and do your things and I'm fine here. Initially, I was on the monitor. They forgot to monitor me at eight o'clock. The midwife monitored me at 12 o'clock. She wasn't getting the reading that she wanted. So she put me on the monitor again. She told me it's not perfect, but it's okay. She left me and I think it was 1.30, 2 o'clock. I started feeling some pain. And the first thing I did was to buzz them. And meantime,

I messaged Mustafa telling him that I've got horrible back pains and it doesn't feel like bathing pains. It felt something different. The midwife came and she put me on the monitor. Even though I was explaining to her the pain is a lot, she wasn't understanding the severity of the pain because by looking at me, I was calm. And I actually told her I'm in a lot of pain and I had done hypnobirthing before. So I'm just doing these breathing exercises she said oh you're on a monitor if anything the monitor will show us and you're not giving birth basically she had put me on the wrong monitor and the placenta basically I had placenta detachment she wasn't looking at all the readings otherwise she would have picked up on it they had called the doctor but someone else had another pain and the doctor went to see the other person,

and they forgot to tell her to come and see me as well. By 8 o'clock, another midwife came. Usually the midwives were very nice and very caring. She came and she told me, please sit up in a very stern voice, and I thought, why is she shouting at me? What has happened? She brought this small monitor and she wanted to look for the heartbeat.

I actually, initially I was relaxed because we heard the heartbeat throughout the night. We couldn't hear the heartbeat and I thought, oh, she's not doing her job properly because I felt she was rude to me. So I thought, she's one of those ones. And she said, please get up, we're going downstairs for a scan. You know something's wrong, but you don't want to face reality. They scanned me. When I saw it on the monitor, the baby had a fetal position. I straight away knew my baby had died.

At the same time, I could not believe it. And I begged the doctor for another scan, even though she had just done one. And I just told her, please, please do another scan for me. I want to see, I want to make sure that my baby's gone. And she kindly did do another scan and obviously, you know, no miracles happened. I'm so sorry, Hora and Mustafa. What did you think, Mustafa, when you were getting these phone calls from Hora about pain?

She had told me just before she went for the scan, they were going to take me for a scan. And she went quiet then. I was literally in the Vatican at the time. I kind of knew where we were. It was a very remote area, poor reception. But I got a call from one of the nurses and I could hear her crying in the background I wanted to be there and support her I got to the hospital about 4pm

what can you say? what is there to say? and you know not being there and then realisation that she has to give birth difficult question but how did you feel not being there with Hora? That was the real difficulty for me. There's always this regret, did I do the right thing by going?

Where should I have stayed? In hindsight, I would have stayed. We can't read the future, we don't know. I had met the Pope, and it was quite a big day. I was quite excited for him to be there. I remember he came on Tuesday or Wednesday and he said, I have cancelled. And I was like, well, why are you cancelling your meeting?

I'm fine here. I'm safe here. What was your daughter's name? Malik. It means angel. Malik. Malik. Can you take me back to when you came back home from the hospital and walked through that door?

Can you remember? I remember leaving the hospital and I felt I'm leaving a part of me there, but I felt they were forcing me to go. It felt very quick. I mean, even I felt that, you know. What happened straight away? Could you talk to each other about it?

No. It really changes you. I thought I was dead myself. I was alive in a physical form, but inside everything was dead. You could see the grief and you could see the pain but then sometimes you feel there's no soul because no soul yeah she felt like her soul had gone i did feel i was dead so foremost for to see through that he knows me very well he knows him very well some people see as in some communities it's even a shame to talk about it.

And shame on a mother, for example, to feel... I wasn't ashamed. I didn't do the only thing that I should have done. Having a baby, the glue that brought us together, and now she wasn't there anymore. My husband was here, everyone was around me, but I felt I didn't belong here anymore. How did it affect your relationship in those early days? I wanted Mustafa to be there and not be there. Sharing with him was very difficult.

I do remember that he was pestering me to share things, and he would talk, and I know he's not someone who's very talkative about. I wanted to get her out of this pain. You wanted things to go back to normal in some ways as well. And you've got a daughter who needs attention as well. How soon did you go back to work, Mustafa? Just over a week later, after the burial. People put pressure on you to move on.

Do you think you were grieving differently? Yes, definitely. I definitely felt that I was more trying to protect Hora and her feelings. That inner instinct came to me more than me grieving. I didn't have the same connection to the newborn in some ways. You're nodding. Hora, do you think you were grieving differently? The short answer is yes yes we did grieve differently after a few weeks I felt most of us moving very fast

but I was still stuck at some point and sometimes I even found it insulting that people around me, not most of us specifically but everyone around me that had moved on even seeing people go to the park or invite you know, invite each other for dinners. And I felt, I've lost my child. How can people move on so fast? Most of them come back from work. Usually it's like a loud hi and Jenna would run to him and it gets very lively.

But when he gets home, I wouldn't come downstairs. I remember that, you know, I didn't want him to try so hard. I think sometimes when you're trying to protect you try and take control and move things in the right direction that you think is right I sensed I had to move on quicker much quicker to go back to work you have to disconnect so as a couple prior to this you were very connected, always talking to each other. We talked a lot all the time. On the phone, make text messages, at home, at night. Suddenly we were kind of separated. I think we were both in our own worlds.

My sisters or my mum would take Jenna out. She started to just immerse herself in watching TV. That's all I was doing. I watched all sorts of subs and documentaries and just to run away, really. Literally, I would have eyeache by the night because I've watched so much TV. Mustafa, men can feel very pushed out after baby loss. Was it seen as your loss?

Or just Horah's? I definitely think it was more felt as Horah's loss. As a man, you try to show less emotion, particularly outside of family, at least. So you also had your older daughter,enna who was three at home i remember trying to be there for her i think she was there for me more than i was for her she's i do remember she bringing a lot of smiles to my face when she was around that's definitely helped me a lot to come back to reality because someone's relying on me and I've got to push myself and

make an effort. So what was the turning point? What was the point when you sought help from outside? At the hospital they gave us a folder of petals, the charity that looks after parents and families who had a stillbirth. I do remember Karen, one of the counsellors, emailed me. I remember telling Mustafa. What did you think, Mustafa, when you heard? I kind of thought it was OK for my wife to go. But I didn't want to be present. I didn't see it as I needed to go.

I had no clue even if I was allowed to go. Why would I seek a counsellor? I'm not going mad. Can you take me back, Cora, to that day you first walked into the counselling room? I walked in there thinking I have nothing to say, really. I have nothing to share with anyone. I think I cried the whole time. I do recall coming back feeling better, as if there was a cover over my heart or my head or my shoulders, and that was taken away. That heaviness wasn't there anymore. First of all, horror went, and then you started coming as well. How did you feel when you first walked into that counselling room? I think there's a bit of a boyish culture that, you know, you've got to man up.

I don't know why I feared it so much because it was so liberating in some ways. It allowed us to open up with each other in a way that we've never done before. We don't talk about our darkest moments in life to many people. Sometimes we don't talk to anyone about it. I think we can now share it together. I always think that if we didn't seek the right support, God knows where we would be. Sorry.

You can get it. My daughter's awake. Then you go feed her. Yeah. Hello, baby. This is Amal. It means hope in Arabic. She's four months old.

She's doing her first interview already. So how old would Malik be now? Three years old. So she would be her three-year-old sister. Yeah. And she is her three-year-old sister. She is her three-year-old sister. Bless you. and she is her three-year-old sister she is her three-year-old sister bless you right on cue

Hurrah and Mustafa were talking there to Joe Morris and the details of charities offering help and support on this issue are on our website some of you getting in touch in relation to the Ofsted changes. Thanks for them. Good morning. I retired from a headship last year,

having taken over school in 2017 with an inadequate judgment from a safeguarding issue. Five years later, we still have not had the chance to change the judgment with a full inspection. We had been deemed effective

with our safeguarding by the county advisor six months after the Ofsted inspection and deemed to be working well when given an online Ofsted meeting during the COVID pandemic. Neither of these could change our status. My health declined and I left education completely. 84844 if you want to get in touch. But I want to turn now to my next guest, widely known as Pakistan's first female architect, renowned for her humanitarian work, her activism and also as a conservationist. Yasmeen Lowry's career has spanned four decades and won her

countless accolades, including establishing her own architectural practice and working on heritage projects with UNESCO. But it was a natural disaster that changed the course of her career, that devastating 2005 earthquake in Pakistan. And it led her to focus on the most vulnerable poor communities and building sustainable structures in disaster hit zones. That became her ultimate calling. Now, long before the impact of climate change on architecture was being considered, Yasmeen developed an approach to sustainable design,

which became the blueprint for her own barefoot architecture. So helping those poorest communities on the front line of the global climate change. And at 82, she's only the second woman after Zaha Hadid to be awarded the Royal Gold Medal for Architecture in recognition of her life's work. And she joins me now live in the studio. Welcome, Yasmeen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

How does it feel to win this award, only the second woman to do so? Well, of course, it's a great honor, but also it came as a total surprise because I no longer work in the way that, you know, these big shot architects do. And I'd given up my practice many years ago. So I never thought I would ever,

you know, I never thought of this as being something that would be, I would be considered for an award like this. But of course, I'm hoping that through this, it opens up the canvas, it stretches the canvas, really, to include many other kind of practices, rather than just working for the elite and the 1% who are wealthy and privileged, because this would mean that now architects will be getting involved, I'm hoping, in many other kinds of architecture, if you like, which is to do with disparities, which is to do with climate change and all the rest of it. Do you think that that sort of architecture was given the kudos of those big corporate buildings for example I heard you

called a starkitect to instead the barefoot architect. Yes of course I mean I've gone through that phase and I found that you know of course it was wonderful and heady at the time and I enjoyed every bit of it but I found a time came when I thought well you know I need to change course and I was able to do that with work with UNESCO and then later on when the earthquake occurred to finally see where really the task lay to be able to help people who have nothing and how you can build up their lives

through design and through architecture. And do you think that's possible? Because we often hear when there is a natural disaster that the structures just were not at the level that could have ever withstood, whether it that they will be safe even when a disaster occurs. And my attempt today is to see how I can just avoid displacement for all these millions of people whenever a disaster strikes. And if we could build structures that are climate resilient and if everybody learnt and we could teach them, then they'll be safe and women and children will be safe. And this is the part of your work which is so fascinating. So instead of building those structures going in,

you are trying to empower the community that is affected to be able to create those structures themselves instead of the traditional charitable model. Absolutely. I think the international colonial charity model doesn't work anymore, because it's like giving, you know, keep on giving handouts to people. And I don't believe in that. I think the barefoot social architecture, my attempt is to see how we could make them self reliant so that they fend for themselves. And so they learn the techniques how to survive, rather than being, you know, things being given to them. And I think, especially after the disaster of 2022 last year,

when we have 33 million people that are displaced, and they have nothing today. So we have to get to them somehow. It's a huge number. There are 3 million households, which is really large. It's looking to the span of your career, it's so interesting where architecture has been and where it's going. Also, of course, you are a woman. This is a field that is male dominated in so many parts of the world. And I read, you know, that you thought perhaps it's even tougher for female architects in the UK

than it was for you in Pakistan when you were growing up. Why so? Well, I think the first generation of professionals, like I belong to one of them. And I think we had, we came from privileged backgrounds, we had education, we had everything going for us. And we didn't find the difficulty that I think a lot of women do in countries like yours. And of course, there were difficulties. Whenever you fight for a cause, if you're a woman, you are more vulnerable. And I did face that. But the fact is that in my country, in many other countries, there are so many injustices, and you have to fight against it. So everything comes with the territory. If you are taking up causes, then you must be ready for

any kind of difficulties. But why do you think architecture remains such a male-dominated field? Well, of course, it's a very long discussion then, isn't it, really? I think women have not had the chance to be able to prove themselves for generations. And somehow they work so hard, they carry all the burdens. And still people feel that they are not quite up to breaking the glass ceiling. And I think that's unfair, but I think the world is changing. I think there are a lot of people who are now men who are supporting women's movement and they're kind of taking them ahead.

But still, because the networking that you need in any profession, that happens with men. And so that's what's important for women to do now. So you don't feel the networking of architects is there for women the way that it is for men. So that's perhaps something, a starting point to change. I think if there were more women supporting more women, then things will change. And this is what happened with me as well. I've had support of women. And even today, when you look at the Royal Gold Medal,

it's because a women's group nominated me. And so I think this has to be done if you want women to be able to do the things that they really want to do. And they need the support from everybody, really. From the family as well, I must say. Without that also, it doesn't happen. Did you have that?

I had it all the way. Yes, I was very, very lucky all the way. Just in our last 30 seconds, Yasmeen, your next project, I know you're not slowing down. You know, I have to have somehow rehabilitate my one million at a time, one million households, not people. So six years, I should be able to have three million families rehabilitated and living a good life. No small feat. Amazing woman. Yasmeen Lahari, thank you so much. Enjoy the ceremony tomorrow. Congratulations

on getting the Royal Gold Medal for Architecture. Only the second woman to do so. Join me tomorrow on Women's Hour. I'll be joined by Susanna Hoffs, the co-founder of the girl group The Bangles. And she was also a solo artist, you might remember. She has written her first novel and it has been described as part British rom-com, part Jane Eyre.

We'll talk all about it. I'll see you then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, my name's Michelle De Swalt. And I'm Laura Smith. And we have a new podcast from BBC Radio 4. Bang On It is a weekly podcast where we curate, recommend, cherry pick

through the week and just go, have a look at that. Basically. We're going high brow, we're going low brow, right? We're doing the legs. We're doing the hard yards so you don't have to. Oh, I like that. Listen, like all podcasts, we're talking about stuff we've done, whether you should bother doing it, but really we're waxing lyrical and...

Trying to make that paper, baby. The economy's in the pan. Subscribe to Bang On It on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

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