Woman's Hour - Young Carers, Elizabeth Strout, Matilda McCrear

Episode Date: April 28, 2020

How are young carers coping in the lockdown? We hear from 17 year old James who looks after his mum and grandma. And Dr Kate Blake-Holmes joins us too. She's a social worker at the University of East Anglia and is carrying out research into this area. As we experience lockdown, how true is it that women comply with public health messages more obediently than men? Dr Michelle Harrison sets out the facts and figures when it comes to gender difference and public health messages.There's another chance to hear Jane's interview with the American author, Elizabeth Strout. Loads of you suggested her Olive Kitteridge novels for the lockdown. And who was Matilda McCrear? She was the last-known survivor of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. She was put on a boat to America in 1860 and she lived until 1940. She still has living relatives. The historian, Hannah Dunkin from the University of Newcastle, tells us about her.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from the 28th of April 2020. Thank you very much for listening, that's if you are. This is Woman's Hour and this morning we're talking about young carers. I'm delighted to say we've found space for that because that is a really important topic, especially right now. We'll also celebrate more lockdown reading so many of you when we asked about your recommendations

on instagram mentioned elizabeth strout and olive kittredge so we thought this was a great opportunity to replay an archive interview with elizabeth discussing with a slightly breathless me uh the life and times of olive kittredge and why she's such an important and inspirational creation. And we'll also discuss a name you may not know, Matilda Macrea, thought to be the last known survivor of the transatlantic slave trade. So we'll talk about her life on Women's Hour this morning. First of all, stay home, protect the NHS, save lives. And overall, we have. But is it the case that women appear to understand and comply with current public health messages more

readily and more often than men? Though we should say that statistically, it's really pretty clear, it's very stark actually. COVID-19 does appear to pose more of a threat to men than to women. More men than women are dying of it. Dr. Michelle Harrison is somebody we've talked to in the past. She's global CEO of Kantar Public and WPP Government Practice, and she has conducted research into the social and economic impact of COVID-19 in all of the G7 countries. So how many people have been involved in your latest bit of research, Michelle? Morning. In the latest piece of research we did in the last couple of weeks, it's over 7,000 working age adults across the G7 group. You have conducted

research across a wide range of topics for many, many years. These are unprecedented times, aren't they? They are indeed. And when we, well, we've always known there are some differences between men and women when it comes to the way they view public policy or politics. And we continue to see those differences. But overall, something extraordinary in the data that we're seeing. So pre-COVID, we asked people their views on things to do with government or politics. We see percentages of around 60% of people agreeing with things. In the UK right now, data like I've never seen it before, we've got agreement levels of between 80 and 90% overall. That means that most of us understand why we have to behave in a very particular way and in a very unusual way for many of us for as long as is necessary.

Is it that simple? Well, a little more complex than that. I think very high levels of people are supporting the government. We've got approval ratings like we've never seen, but there is still a mixed level of understanding. So when we actually ask that question directly, do you understand what it is that you're required to do in terms of public health measures around COVID-19? Women are more likely to say they understand. They're the figures, we've got about 65% of British women saying they do understand what's being required of them.

Lower for men, around 58%. So they're still very high figures, but there is that difference between men and women that we are used to seeing around issues to do with health. And you say that this is pretty much mirrored across the G7. Is every government currently popular and with everybody? In terms of popularity with the government, it's not quite mirrored across the G7. You see different figures actually for Japan, but you see very high levels of support for government in Italy, in Canada, Germany and the UK. Slightly different in the US. They've been falling off. Right. OK. For reasons that were probably well illustrated.

That would be a different programme. It would be. And it's a programme we may well end up doing. Who knows? So let's go back to the differences in Britain between women and men. Where did you come across the greatest difference? So the greatest differences are around the difference between men and women in terms of ability to maintain the avoidance of what we'd refer to as non-essential contact. Now, again, very high levels indeed of support for government measures, but we have women about 10% more likely to say that over the last few weeks they've been avoiding non-essential contact. So 85% of women saying they have been, 76% of men. It's the same with self-isolating. Women, 8% to 10% more likely to say they're doing that.

And of course, the one we've seen in other types of data, women, 8% more likely than men to say they're washing their hands. But overall, these things add up. We've also got men, 10% more likely to say that they have still been going and socialising, pubs, restaurants, those kinds of things. You know, in terms of their ability to maintain the avoidance of social contact. It's not quite there at the same level as women. Nonetheless, high, but just not at the same level. And intriguingly, I gather that more men than women think they've already had COVID-19. Yes, and that's across the G7 group.

But we have to remember that this is self-reporting data. So across that whole G7, we've got about one in 20 of the men who've been interviewed saying that they believe they have had COVID and one in 50 of the women. And that's consistent across pretty much every country. Remember, it's just self-reported that they believe they've had those symptoms. It doesn't mean that they were diagnosed. No, but why do you think that that might be the case? Difficult for me to say. I think there is the sort of old joke, I suppose, that men tend to think that they've had things when women are less sure.

We also find in a lot of research that men are more willing to state very clearly that they believe something where women are more likely to say they don't know. But of course, we do also know that this disease appears to have a different epidemiological pattern. So likelihood is the ones, even though this is self-reported, men have had it perhaps more than women. But we also know, as I mentioned right at the start, that men do appear to be more vulnerable to it than women. So it's very important that the messaging is right, that it reaches the right people, that it's done in the right way. What would you say about that? Completely agree. And there are ways in which targeting can be done to support that. So when we think about the aftermath of COVID, one of the things that is obviously going to be the challenge, those levels of government support currently

very high. As public opinion starts to pivot, as we've seen in other countries who are a little further ahead than ours and starts to move away from so much emphasis on health and more emphasis on the economy, then that's when the challenge really begins, how to sustain those behaviours. The most important thing is that we do understand that there is a difference between the way men and women understand what they're asked to do. And also there's a difference in their ability to comply. And that means that those messages can be fine tuned to really target men to try and support their ability to keep going with this. And what are views of the future?

Because I've heard a lot of people say over the last couple of weeks that they no longer feel they've got much to pin their hopes on. Most of us can, if we're fortunate enough, look forward to a summer holiday, for example. Right now, there's just uncertainty about everything and plans are worth not very much, it would seem. What do people think of the future? Of course, there is a lot of uncertainty. And I think we also need to be really clear that people find it very difficult to talk about a life they haven't yet lived. And with this particular issue, this is such a crisis, an economic Extremely high levels, over 80% of people in Britain believe that this will have an impact both on the economy into the longer term and on the welfare state into the longer term. Again, women reporting at 8% to 10% higher than men that they

believe the impact is profound. But nonetheless, there's a sense across the whole population is. But I think the important thing and what becomes very challenging for government and policymakers is that when you ask people how quickly they think life might go back to normal, actually, there's still that sense that we might be able to sort of switch a button and things do go back. And the majority of people believing that their life will be back to normal within around six months so this this big difference between us experiencing a profound change believing it's very long term but at the same time somehow hoping that it really isn't there's

something very poignant about that hope isn't there, actually, thinking about it? There is. And I think it's also this lack of ability to really understand quite how powerful government can be in a time of crisis, the desire to do the right thing, but the hope that there is something out there that can put everything back to normal. I wanted to end on a hopeful note, but we need to mention that the economic impact is really going to be felt by women, perhaps rather more than men in the future. Well, that's interesting. I mean, the figures on the economic impact, you know, do make your mouth go dry. And across the G7, we have got one in 13 people reporting that they have completely lost their income. I mean, that's extraordinary. And across it is. And now it's

lower than that. It's lower than that in Britain, actually, compared to some of the other countries. And there's a difference between men and women. And what is very unusual about Britain across the whole of the G7 group is that men are reporting are more likely to report they've entirely lost their income than women. And that's the first time we've seen something like that. One in 16 men in Britain who participated in the research as compared to one in 25 women who say they've completely lost their income in the last six weeks. Right. OK, so we need to bear that in mind.

Thank you very much for your help, Dr Michelle Harrison, Global CEO of Kantar Public and WPP Government Practice. At BBC Women's Hour is how you can contact us on Twitter and Instagram. We welcome your involvement, of course. And if you've got something more substantial to add, to hurl into the mix, you can do that via email. bbc.co.uk slash womenshour is the address of our website. Now, there are hundreds of thousands of young carers in the UK,

and they often, perhaps too often, go unnoticed. It is particularly difficult for them right now. Dr Kate Blake-Holmes is a social work lecturer at the University of East Anglia. I'll talk to her in a moment. First, let's hear from James, who is a young carer. He's from Norfolk. He is 17. So, James, you're doing your A-levels, first year of A-levels, is that right? Yes, I am. Right. And are you focusing on schoolwork? Is it possible for you to do so at the moment? It's very, very difficult at the moment. I'd say, for me, my main focus is on my mum and my nan, who I'm having to, you know, support through this.

Tell us a little bit about your mum and your nan. So my mum suffers with fibromyalgia chronic fatigue syndrome and bipolar type 2 they're the main ones and my nan suffers with diabetes uh crohn's disease um and she you know she she's getting on as well so she has to i have got a lot of stuff to do for her as well. I'm currently living with my nan to support her through this, but still having to go and do shopping for my mum, that sort of thing. How long have you been living with your nan rather than your mum? I've been living with my nan now for about six or seven weeks, I think,

maybe a little bit more. I was here originally for some respite, just some time off from my caring role. And then when the lockdown came into place and that sort of thing, it was decided it'd be better for me to stay at my nan's so I can support her. She's living on her own,

so she wouldn't have had anyone with her. So I'm sort of here to keep her company and give her a little bit more support while I can, really. Yeah, but you've also got to pop back to your mum. She's living with your younger brother isn't she yes she is so how often do you go every day to see your mum as well um not quite every day but it's sort of at least three times a week I'd say that I've been sort of popping over to just make sure that everything's okay there um if there's anything that I can do that my brother maybe can't do, I'll help with that. And little shopping runs as well that might need doing because my mum's also class is vulnerable, so she can't go out.

So, you know, I'm having to do that sort of thing as well. Yeah, I should say I've got a statement here from the government, James, if you just hang on while I read it. Young carers may be particularly vulnerable during this time. And we know that headteachers who know these children best are working hard to meet their needs during these unprecedented times. That is why we've given school leaders flexibility in offering a school place to young carers so they can stay in education where they can safely attend or so they can be properly supported at home. That's the government statement about people in a similar position to your own, James. But I guess, are you having online lessons? Is work being sent to you or are you going in?

I'm not going in purely because of, you know, my parents, both my nan and my mum being classed as vulnerable. So it's that little risk as well. And also because they can't go out, I'm the lifeline really. I mean, we've got family that are helping as well. But they can't go out i'm the lifeline really i mean we've got

family that are helping as well but you know immediate lifeline is myself and do you feel appreciated uh within the family definitely definitely feel appreciated um in the wider picture it does you know oftentimes you get you feel like almost free labor um from the government with the way that we're not really supported financially or you know within housing or anything like that as in general really yeah and i can't emphasize enough you are 17 um no 17 year old can can have a good time at the moment it's not possible because none of you can see your mates are your friends in normal circumstances are they aware of what you're going through?

Yeah, I'm quite vocal about my caring role and I don't try and hide it I'm quite happy for people to know I think it's important for friends to be aware of it so they can support you through it and you know I've got really supportive friends a lot of them know my mum and a lot of them get on with my mum so

I wouldn't say that I hide it from them I definitely you know I'm very supported by my friends I'm quite lucky in that respect Yeah well you shouldn't hide it you should be absolutely vocal of course you should just stay with us thank you for that. Kate Blakes-Holmes this is your area because your research work in the past, I gather, has been about young people growing up with a parent who may have mental health challenges. Yes. Hi. Yeah, no, this is my area. Previously, I've done research around young people growing up, as you say, with a parent with mental ill health.

But a lot of that is looking about the caring responsibilities they do and the lack of recognition for some of those caring responsibilities, either from the local authorities or just because often young people or children may not raise this with the schools. Not all of the teachers are going to be aware of the caring responsibilities that the pupils that they have are taking on how i gather a lot of young people in this situation will be wrongly i should say but will be feeling a sense almost of shame about the responsibilities they have at home is is that fair i think that's really fair to say a lot of the young people that i've spoken to over the years, both within this research and also within previous research, they worry about telling people about their caring responsibilities. Often they don't start telling people until later on within their childhood or their early teenage years, because it's something that they've grown

up with and it's very normal for them. And then when they do start realising the differences that they might have with their peer groups, they worry about how that might make them stand out, whether they might be bullied for that, whether their families might be judged or stigmatised or thought of differently because of it. So it tends to be something that they keep very, very quiet, very, very private. What more do you think could and should be done right now to help people like james i think there's two main things well it's about raising awareness and about letting young carers know that they can speak out about their their needs and their issues i think from a service point of view we can be doing two things so So I think with school teachers, I think they are trying their best.

And as the Department of Education had said, they're trying to be flexible about young carers. But it's about realising that they won't know all of the pupils that they've got who are taking on caring responsibilities. So if you have a pupil that's not engaging with the online learning or is finding it difficult to manage their deadlines to start the conversation off with is there anything that's making it difficult for you to study at the moment and just open that conversation because the young carer themselves may not feel able to raise it. I think also from a health and social care point of view if anybody is working with an adult that's got any kind of vulnerability or care needs and there are children in that household I think at the moment we need to just be assuming that those children are

providing a level of care and again opening up the conversation. Just thinking about what might happen if James who is going out in the world so is from that point of view, putting himself at risk up to a point. What if he gets COVID-19? It's a really great concern for a lot of the young carers that I've spoken to. They worry about the care that they're having to provide. They worry about the fact that through going out shopping or doing these tasks that they might be risking exposing themselves, but also massively the people that they're caring for to the virus. I think it's really important for young carers to have a talk to their family to any other adults that are with them and make a plan of what would happen if I became unwell or

if I contracted the virus. They also need to know the helplines that are available to them through their local authorities and through NHS 111 but it's about making that plan with if they have it a wider family network of what kind of care am I providing and who could take this over if I'm not able to do it. Yes James said that he felt effectively like unpaid labour and of course caring is something that this programme does discuss and it's often said and it needs to be repeated that people who do care work are saving the rest of us an enormous amount of money something that is still not acknowledged as much as it should be.

No absolutely and we know the Children Commissioner has done some fantastic reports about young carers and has just produced a report this April around the kind of impact of vulnerable populations of young people within the UK. We know how much work young carers are putting in at the moment, but we also know the detrimental effects that can have on them long term in terms of their educational attainment and their social development and their own mental health. And we need to support these young people. We need to make sure that we're putting in the support to them

to enable them to continue to care in a safe and appropriate manner. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us, Kate. We appreciate it. And James, it's definitely worth saying that you are a very mature 17-year-old, but by dint of the work you're doing now, you're kind of building up a skill set which hopefully should prepare you for the world of work. Definitely, definitely.

It makes me more aware of how everything, you know, falls into place and that sort of thing. Well, too right. I mean, listen, I live with a 17-year-old and she doesn't sound like you in any number of ways because she doesn't sound like you in any number of ways because she doesn't have your challenges and it's I mean what's your plan for the rest of today for example

well I've got to go and pick up some prescriptions later today for both my nan and my mum that's probably what I'll be doing straight after this interview if I'm honest we really appreciate you coming on and taking the time to talk to us and you're getting a lot of appreciation on Twitter

so don't let it go to your head I'll have a quick look after the interview treat yourself alright James take care of yourself and your mum and your nan thank you very much that is James who is just 17 now on Friday

we're talking about what makes babies laugh and let's just hear a baby laughing. Why not? That is quality. I could listen to that again, but we haven't got time. If you would like to share an audio file of your own, a baby or grandchild or godchild, whatever it might be, we'd love to hear it. You can bung us over an audio file via email through the website bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour. What has made the baby in your life laugh? What

was the first thing that really got to them? And it can be anything from a sneeze to well, there's any number of different things. So let us know what it was. On Friday morning, I'm going to be talking to Dr. Caspar Adiman, author of The Laughing Baby. He's a developmental psychologist. And if, like me, you've watched Unorthodox on Netflix, and if you haven't, get to it. Deborah Feldman, who wrote the memoir that inspired it, is going to be talking to Jenny on Thursday's edition of the programme. Now, I said at the start of today's programme that we were asking you on Instagram, at BBC Women's Hour, to recommend your lockdown reading. And loads and loads of you went for the work of Elizabeth Strout, particularly Olive Kittredge.

There is Olive Kittredge, the book, and then the follow-up was Olive Again. And it was when Olive Again came out that I interviewed Elizabeth Strout at the end of last year. So here is a chance to hear some of that interview again. It's me being an appalling literary fangirl with Elizabeth Strout, but she's such a brilliant writer. And here she is explaining how at one point she thought she'd never write about Olive again until she changed her mind. I was sitting in a cafe in Norway, checking my email, and she just showed up. I just saw her absolutely vividly nosing her car into that marina. And then I saw her get out of the car and she now had a cane. And I realized, oh, my words, you're back.

Olive Kittredge is a retired teacher. She is very cantankerous. She is extremely judgmental. She's hypocritical. She's capable of being extremely nasty. She's also capable of being very kind and very thoughtful. And she's very hard on herself. Yes, yeah.

As well as on almost everybody else right exactly um so we're just going to hear an extract from olive again and um this is about her relationship really with her son christopher and his family here we go they were late all of kittredge hated people who were late a little after lunchtime they had said and all have had the lunch things out peanut butter and jelly for the two oldest kids, and tuna fish sandwiches for her son and his wife Anne. About the little ones, she had no idea. The baby must not eat anything solid yet, only being six weeks old. Little Henry was over two, but what did two-year-olds eat? Olive couldn't remember what Christopher ate when he was that age. She walked into the living room, looking at everything through the eyes of her son.

He would have to realize as soon as he walked in. The phone rang, and Olive moved quickly back to the kitchen to answer it. Christopher said, OK, Mom, we're just leaving Portland. We had to stop for lunch. Lunch, said Olive. It was 2 o'clock in the afternoon. The late April sun was a milky sun seen through the window over the bay, which shone with a steely lightness. No white caps today.

We had to get something for the kids to eat, so we'll be there soon. Portland was an hour away. Olive said, okay then, will you still be needing supper? Supper? asked Christopher, as though she had proposed they take a shuttle to the moon. Sure, I guess so. In the background, Olive heard a scream. Christopher said, Annabelle, shut up. Stop it right now, Annabelle. I'm counting to three. Mum, I'll have to call you back. And the phone went dead. Oh, Godfrey, Olive murmured, sitting down at the kitchen table.

Olive's relative peace is about to be shattered by the arrival of her son, his wife and their children. And I found this an excruciating episode in Olive's life, actually. She isn't very thoughtful. She hasn't got the right breakfast cereal for the kids. No, she can't quite do it. It all just goes belly up, doesn't it? Right. How do you conjure up these episodes?

Are they from your real life no they're not from my real life but i've worked with all of you know for years now she isn't real by the way i keep no it sounds like she's real i mean she feels real to me but she's not she's a made-up person um but i've worked with her and i've known her in my head for so long now you know through the first book and now the second book that I can just understand that she's trying, she's got the peanut butter sandwiches out, but she just doesn't know how to do it. She doesn't know about little children and she can't quite figure it out. And they, of course, don't like her. And it just is sad. This is all about the really difficult ambivalence between grown-ups and their adult children.

And it's quite commonplace, but it doesn't crop up that often in fiction, does it? It's interesting. I have never found somebody like Olive in fiction, you know, with her particularities and her particular problems with her children. So I don't think so but we would like to believe wouldn't we that as you get older you come to a new understanding of your parents and actually you just get on better than ever well i mean i think that well by the end of the book olive and christopher have progressed they have well olive progresses in both books doesn't she right she does progress in both books and i do do think that, you know, it occurred to me with this book that there's a myth that people reach a certain age and they just stop.

It's just not true. I just don't think it's true. I think that if you have been growing even slowly, then you continue to grow until your last breath. And Olive does continue to grow. For me, though, it was absolutely at the heart of everything you write about her. She had to be a retired teacher. She couldn't have been anything else, could she? No.

And a math teacher. And a math teacher at that. And this is big. I don't know whether teachers listening understand always the impact they can have on people. Yeah. She's had half the town. Through her hands. Through her hands.

Yeah. And she continues to meet them. Yep. And just describe the chapter in which she meets a person who, I'm not sure, I can't remember whether she directly taught this individual, but the woman has gone on to become the poet laureate. Yes, she did. Olive did have that young woman in class years and years ago,

and she thought almost nothing of her. And then the woman became a poet laureate and Olive sits down across from her and has breakfast with her at that marina the very first time I saw her return. And she has a conversation with Andrea and it comes back to sort of bite her. Yeah, you need to read that.

Because they're not short stories, they are connected chapters in this book. You are 63, but your understanding of and your interest in older people is really at the heart of your work. Yeah, you know, I grew up with older people. I grew up on a dirt road in Maine, and my great aunts all lived in different little houses along that road, and there were no other little children around. So there were these older women, mostly. There was an uncle as well, a great uncle. But I think it was just the music of my childhood.

They're very dry, droll, main voices. And I did end up getting a degree in gerontology. Why? I don't know. I mean, I think it must have had to do with the fact that I had just grown up with older people around so much. And so I was therefore interested in them. And they were sort of my first vision of the world in a way. And you write about the indignities of old age that there's an issue about incontinence in this book. And again, you just never who writes

this stuff apart from you? i don't know but it's real but it is real and it does happen and there's also olive eventually goes into a kind of sheltered housing facility in in this book and it to me it's like starting again it was like the first day at primary school yes yes exactly so that never stops no and you know the first meal that she had and nobody would sit with her and i mean, she does eventually find her way. We know that. But yes, exactly. You're not a political writer, but there are various issues you know in this world whether it's the home health care worker who has that bumper sticker of you know what olive considers that horrible orange the trump sticker and um and then there's a somali woman who comes over as a home health care

worker as well and there's tension between those two health care workers olive we should say is firmly on the side of the Somali lady. Absolutely. She is. Yeah. Which is why Olive is one of those characters who actually, no wonder we were talking about her as though she's real, because you are such a brilliant writer that to me she is real, but she is capable of both good and bad.

Right. Absolutely. In pretty much the same sentence. Right. Exactly. She's very, very complicated. Has Olive, has she ended her days? No, I mean, well, I mean, will I write about her again?

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm asking. You know, I mean, I just don't know what to say because I never thought I would write about her again before. And I did. So I just now I'm scared of saying anything about her future. But she's certainly not dead. OK, well, no, I actually didn't want her to die. No, no, no, no, no, I would never kill Olive. Elizabeth Strout. And I think it's fair to say that during the course of that encounter, I fell quite spectacularly off the fence, and really allied myself well and truly with the genius Elizabeth Strout, but never mind.

She is absolutely worthy of more than my admiration. And if you haven't ever read those books, do treat yourself now. And if there's anything you'd like to recommend, please go to the Women's Hour homepage. You can see other people's suggestions. And you can also share your own right now on Twitter. What is your comfort reading of lockdown? It certainly doesn't have to be a classic. It can be something that you absolutely adore for reasons you can just about put into words or don't even fully understand. It can be something from your childhood, something you've gone back to or something you've just discovered.

Just let us know. Comfort reading for lockdown at BBC Women's Hour. Now, Matilda Macri was thought to be, is thought to be the last known survivor of the transatlantic slave trade. She was captured in West Africa and then taken on the Clotilda, which was the last slave ship to sail from West Africa to Alabama in 1860. She lived on until 1940 and she still has a living grandson. The historian Dr Hannah Durkin is from the University of Newcastle and I'm going to ask you really, Hannah, to do the impossible and condense absolutely years of painstaking research into just a few minutes. But tell us, first of all, what we know for certain about the life of Matilda. Well, what we do know is that she was two years old when she was kidnapped.

And she was from a town in what is now Benin in West Africa and she was taken very sadly with her mother, three sisters and two brothers to the coast of West Africa and her sisters and mother were then, she was then sold with her sisters and mother across the Atlantic to Alabama. Her two brothers were left behind and the family never saw each other again.

And then when they arrive in Alabama, she is then sold with her mother and one of those three sisters. The other two sisters are sold elsewhere. And again, those sisters never see their family again. So it's a very sad story of loss. It certainly is and all that is documented. Yes so she was interviewed near the end of her life she went actually to Selma to Dallas County Courthouse in Selma to effectively demand compensation reparations for what she'd endured and she goes to the courthouse she is is denied compensation. The white judge turns her away. But she attracts the attention of a journalist who documents her story. And this is how we know what happened to her. Right. There's so much to this. What we should

say, of course, is that slavery was abolished in 1807. And yet this slave ship sailed to Alabama in 1860. So what was going on? Yes, well, the slave trade was abolished in 1807. Obviously, slavery continues and it doesn't end until the end of the Civil War in the US. And in the UK, it doesn't end until 1838. So slavery is continuing, but the slave trade is illegal. So it's meant to have stopped. But unfortunately, the survivors of the Clotilda slave ship, you know, they were smuggled illegally by a very brazen Alabama man called Timothy Mayer. And he sends a man called William Foster to captain the ship and purchase people as slaves and unfortunately he appears to have bought very very young people so most of the

Clotilda survivors appear to have been children or very young people so clearly they're buying them they're buying them because they want that they if they buy young people they know they'll be very profitable but it also looks like they were trying to marry them so Matilda's mother Gracie was actually paired up married to another Clotilda survivor and had two children to her and it appears as if many of the Clotilda survivors were paired quite arbitrarily to have children

on behalf of their enslavers. Have you had any contact with Matilda's living grandson? Yes, I contacted him at the start of the year. And he didn't know his grandmother's story. He didn't know that she was a Clotilda survivor. So it's been really, really moving, really, I think, really upsetting as well to know what she went through. Well, I was going to ask about that because it's just an average day in your life. And then you presumably emailed him, did you?

Yeah, I sent him a letter. I thought it would be better, nicer to have a formal letter and a copy of my research as well um and invited him to contact me and he emailed me um to say that you know he just wanted to chat about what i knew what he knew as well about his grandmother and her children so it's been you know we're hoping to meet obviously the the clitilda virus means this is you know very unlikely at the moment but um i've been invited to alabama next february and i'm still hoping that's possible and um and he's hoping to meet me there and and i'm hoping to meet other descendants of matilda mccrea there as well well i really hope you do and we shouldn't underestimate the impact that it can that information can have on somebody it's it's

quite a lot to take on isn't it it? Can we also acknowledge that I said that Matilda was thought to be the last known survivor of the transatlantic slave trade. It was thought to be somebody else, wasn't it? Yes. So until last year, it was thought to be a man called Cossola, his US name, he was commonly known as Cudjoe Lewis. And he was a fellow Clotilda survivor. So the Clotilda was the last slave ship to reach the US. And he lived until 1935.

And he actually, along with many of the other Clotilda survivors, established a community called Africatown. Incredibly, they set up a community of survivors together. And that town still exists descendants still live there but I realised when I was working on site something slightly different I knew that another survivor another clitoral survivor was known to still be alive in the late

1920s I realised doing some slightly different research that I'd come across her name so I worked to trace her story. Her name was Radoshi. The name she was given in the US was Sally Smith. And I worked to tell her story last year. And when I published my research, I was claiming that this was, as far as we can tell, the last living African-born survivor of the transatlantic slave trade.

But very quickly after I published my research, I realised that I'd made a mistake and Matilda McRuer outlived her. of the transatlantic slave trade um but very quickly after i published my research i realized that i'd made a mistake and matilda mccreer outlived her and i realized that my research had elided matilda mccreer's life i mean she'd she'd fought to try to be recognized yes try to claim compensation at the end of her life so i sort of you know i was responsible as well for oh so you felt guilty about omitting her from... Yeah. I mean, obviously it was unwitting, but it was...

Well, it's brilliant that she's now, thanks to you, able to claim her place in history. I mean, it's not necessarily a place she'd want, but nevertheless, it's hers. And tell me a bit about the life she managed to have in the States. Was it reasonable? Well, unfortunately, she lived in poverty throughout her life. She was enslaved for a very short period.

She was only two when she was enslaved, and the Civil War ends in 1865. So she's a very small child when freedom or nominal freedom is granted. But then she spends most of the rest of her life as a sharecropper which means that she's working she's nominally free but she's she's working not for a wage having to work not for a wage but for a share of the crop of the land of the crop that she's producing for the landowner so her circumstances don't really materially change but she does find ways to resist. I mean, I mentioned that she goes to Dallas County Courthouse to demand compensation when she's in her mid-70s, which is an incredible thing to do.

She also appears to have worn her hair in a traditional Yoruba hairstyle throughout her life, which presumably her mother taught to her um she also had a long-term relationship with a with a white german-born man to whom she had many children um so she did many things and also actually she changed her name so her enslaver's name was memorable cray and she she had to carry his surname but she adapted it so instead of cray it became creer and she had to carry his surname, but she adapted it. So instead of Cray, it became Crea and she added an MC to it, so it becomes Macrea. So she adapts it to resist in small ways to very difficult circumstances. Yeah, I'm really glad you pointed that out because I was a bit uneasy about mentioning her name, but now I know that was the name she chose for herself. Yes.

That makes it better, doesn't it? Thank you so much for that. That was absolutely fascinating. Historian Dr Hannah Durkin. I thought that was really interesting. Dr Hannah Durkin from the University of Newcastle and a part of history that we don't talk about enough, really. So very grateful to her.

Now, let's look at some of your emails today. And what shall we start with? I think we'll start with what you thought about the first conversation about research into lockdown. Claire says, When I brave the supermarket, it is nearly always the men, nearly always the men, who are looking the other way when the staff are giving instructions

and they get way too close in the aisles. Although there was a woman who reached over my shoulder who said it was all right because she was wearing a mask. Yeah. This from Rachel. In today's programme, talking about so-called support for the government, please highlight the fact that the overwhelming public compliance with the measures instigated by the government

is not the same as, quotes, support for the government. Fair enough. This from Michael with his take on why women appear to be more compliant with the public health messages right now. Michael says the reason is simple. Women are by nature far more risk averse than men. It explains, amongst other things, why there are far more successful male entrepreneurs than female ones. Michael, I think there are a string of reasons

why that is the case. Not all of them are to do with women being risk averse. And we cannot say often enough at the moment, and we did mention it at least twice during that conversation, men are dying of COVID-19 in greater numbers than women. If it were the other way round, this programme would clearly emphasise that too. So we need to make it very clear that men can't afford

to take this lightly. They are dying of it. Young carers was something that unsurprisingly got a very positive reaction from you, with lots of you just pointing out what an impressive young man James was. This is from Alison. You're rightly discussing the problems of one parent families and young carers.

But nine times out of 10, the single parent is a woman. Where are the fathers? Please try and delve into this dreadful problem and shame them. The poor young man on today's programme about young carers, just 17, looking after his mother and grandmother, where is the father to help him through his A-levels? Alison, I don't know the answer to that question. And of course, the man may have died. So I don't know. And there are always any number of explanations for the situations in which people find themselves. Let's also mention, this is good actually from Wendy, who makes the point, I can't help thinking, why can't some of the NHS volunteers, there were nearly three quarters of a million of them, help the likes of James and his family.

My husband registered and he hasn't had a call to help yet. And that's something that I've heard from other contributors and anecdotally in my own life. So yeah, it's a fair point. And I can't really provide you with an answer to that. I wanted to acknowledge I've got a very good and important email from Anne. And this was about the conversation I had with Elizabeth Strout about the fictional character of Olive Kittredge. Anne says, In your author interview about Olive, a difficult person with no ability to relate to children, even within her own family, your interviewer said,

She had to be a retired teacher, didn't she? To which the answer from Elizabeth Strout was, yes. As one of those retired teachers, let me suggest no teacher would survive long in today's classrooms if they lacked this essential trait. Those I know, working frequently with 32 children in two small rooms, often including children with a variety of special needs, have retained their humanity and their empathy. However, the teacher has to be in control for education to take place. What's the alternative before the epidemic teachers were leaving the profession in droves thanks to ever increasing expectations sometimes politically motivated and making no sense to an educationalist and you make a fair point and thank you for that the last thing i wanted to do in that interview was to be critical of teachers. I did also say what an impact they have on all of us. Many, of course, I'm one of them,

hugely positively impacted by teachers who took a particular interest in me and encouraged me. So I'd be the last person to do that. But you make a very powerful point. So I'm very sorry if I cause defence. Now, laughing babies is something that we are going to discuss on friday's program which i'm looking forward to and we are hoping to play a bit of audio on friday's program of some of the

files you've sent us of your own babies the babies in your life who have laughed um listen to this one first of all this is an email from a listener called ricky who says i've got a recording here of my youngest son laughing his head off he's now nearly 17 and doesn't sound like this anymore. No, I imagine he doesn't. I recorded this back in 2005 on a bit of Lego technology that isn't made anymore and probably wasn't made that much at the time. I was tickling him and playing Kiss Monster, a game where Kiss Monster appears and kisses him everywhere. Now he is what Ricky describes as a hairy ass teenager. I can't believe he was ever so cute. I'm not sure he'd appreciate Kiss Monster anymore. I think we both know, Ricky, that he certainly wouldn't. But let's see if we

can hear the young lad in question back in 2005. So let's go to your emails on laughing babies. Sally says, I found myself welling up and getting a bit misty eyed when you played the sound of that baby laughing. I think, by the way, we should play every day at the moment. Anyway, I can remember the first time our son Albert, now 18, first laughed like that. He was just over a year old and we were in the garden and some branches of a rambling rose were sticking out overhead. I accidentally knocked one and some petals fell down and out of the blue he just started laughing. We did it again and he laughed again so we kept on doing it until he was beside himself with laughter as we were. It is funny what makes them laugh. Yes, isn't it. It is funny what makes them laugh.

Yes, isn't it interesting though that often what makes them laugh is something happening to their parent and frankly that keeps on making them laugh in my experience. They never stop finding problems that we have being funny. I think that was, you're probably, so my youngest is 17 and Sally, I got in my baby bag from the health clinic or from the GP surgery, the book Peekaboo, which everybody got at that time as part of your bundle. And Peekaboo is the classic, you know, you hide and then you come out again. And that seems to make babies smile, certainly. I don't know whether it makes them laugh or did.

Anne-Marie says, when my son was a baby, it was just the two of us at home while my husband was at work. So I used to do quite a bit of cooking. I'd put him in his baby seat on the kitchen table and I'd pretend to be Delia Smith doing cookery demos, placing emphasis on, then we beat it, chop it, whip it like this. And it made him laugh like Billy-O and kept him entertained while i prepared the dinner and made cakes etc i never remember him crying he was always a happy baby oh come on anne-marie he did cry he cried surely i can't be the only person whose babies never stop crying but i'm glad that your delia smith impersonations cheered him up um From Helen. Helen sent us some audio of her son Stephen at the age of 16 months. I think this episode was something of a conversation, if I remember rightly. I was sitting on the sofa and I think I'd whooped at something. He found that funny

and then I kept on whooping and he kept on responding until he falls over and finds that hilarious too. He hasn't got any actual words yet, so this is quite recent, but you're making your son laugh now, which is brilliant. Thank you for that. Thanks for keeping broadcasting new and engaging radio. Well done all, and tell Jane it's Control-C and then Control-V. Yeah, all right. Thank you, Helen.

I've stopped referring to that. Just as we've put Arctic Roll behind us, we've also stopped going on about control and everything else. No, Siobhan tells me I'll never put Arctic Roll behind me, and she's probably right. Thanks for engaging with the programme today. We do appreciate it. The only people here have been Tim and Siobhan and Lucinda and me.

And it's been... I think we were the A-team today, to be perfectly honest. We don't really want anyone else to come back. We shouldn't say that. Yeah. I dare you, Siobhan, keep this in the podcast. Thanks for listening. Jenny is here tomorrow, amongst other things, talking about the feminist origins of the midlife crisis. That's tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.