Woman's Hour - Young composer Alexia Sloane: commissioned to write a piece for this year’s BBC Proms

Episode Date: July 18, 2019

Ahead of the world premiere of ’Earthward’ at the Proms, young composer Alexia Sloane talks to Jenni about the upcoming performance and the causes that inspire the music. David Trimble, a leading figure in Northern Irish politics and joint Nobel Peace Prize Winner, now sits in the House of Lords. Last Wednesday it came as a surprise when he stood up in the House - during a debate about Northern Ireland - to say that his eldest daughter got married to her girlfriend, even though, in the past, he was opposed to same-sex marriage and voted against it. The party he used to lead – the UUP – used to be against it too. Vicky Trimble married her girlfriend, Roz, two years ago. Jenni talks to Professor Dame Sally Davies as she prepares to leave her post towards the end of the year as the Chief Medical Officer for England to take on the role of Master at Trinity College Cambridge,. Do you ever feel like a fraud, waiting to be found out? Clinical psychologist Jessamy Hibberd has a cure for “imposter syndrome”. And we hear from listener Claire Poole, who asks why the fear of not being good enough at work seems to affect women more than men.Presenter: Jenni Murray Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Vicky Trimble Interviewed Guest: Rosalind Stephens Interviewed Guest: Alexia Sloane Interviewed Guest: Dame Sally Davies Interviewed Guest: Dr Jessamy Hibberd Interviewed Guest: Claire Poole

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to Thursday's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Professor Dame Sally Davies is to leave her post as Chief Medical Officer for England. She's tackled smoking, drinking, obesity and excessive use of screens. How successful does she think she's been? On Monday, the world premiere of Earthward will be performed at the Proms. What inspired the young composer Alexia Stone?

And imposter syndrome. Why do so many successful people fear being found out as not good enough? And is there a cure? Now, yesterday we discussed the Northern Ireland Bill and the possibility that abortion may be liberalised there and same-sex marriage legalised. The House of Lords discussed the question yesterday and passed the amendments by a significant majority. Today they will go back to the House of Commons. Well, last Wednesday, when the issue first went to the Lords,

one rather surprising figure stood up in support of same-sex marriage. He's David Trimble, the former leader of the Ulster Unionist Party and joint winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for his role in the negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement. He had previously voted against same-sex marriage, but... I have found myself taking a particular position with regard to same-sex marriage, which was forced upon me when my elder daughter

got married to her girlfriend. Now, I can't change that. And I can't go round now saying I'm opposed to that because I acquiesce in it. There we are. Well, David Trimble's daughter is Vicky Trimble, who joins us together with her wife, Rosalind Stevens. Vicky, let me start with you.

What did you make of what your father said in the house? He used the words forced upon and acquiesced to it. he might have been a bit nervous about telling people. He has always been supportive of us. I think the way he treats our relationship, the way he gets on well with Ros, I think that speaks a bit louder than the exact wording he used. But also, I first saw it written down and I thought, oh, that is a wee bit harsh. But whenever I actually saw the footage of him in the House of Lords, I thought, well, actually, that's just kind of his way.

So it doesn't seem to me as harsh as it first did once I watched the footage. Rosalind, what was your first encounter with the man who's now your father-in-law like? The duvet experience. Wow, this is one famous duvet. It's getting a lot of coverage. Yeah, I went to the toilet and I needed a bit of extra warmth and not having a dressing gown, I used the duvet and came out and there he was.

And I said, oh, I wasn't expecting anyone else here. And he said, neither was I. And so I promptly left after that. What was his response, actually? What did he say to you about it? He actually, he didn't say anything to me. He spoke to my mum and my mum said to me that he was, I think the word she used was discombobulated.

So, I mean, at the time I was living in my dad's flat in London and we thought we had the flat to ourselves. He was always coming back and forth from Northern Ireland to London. So when he walked in unexpectedly, we were a bit surprised as well. I mean, he knew I was was dating Roz I'd spoken to him and my mum about my relationship with Roz so it was just kind of that you know we've got a an adult staying with their parents and they're in a relationship and sometimes these things happen yeah how difficult was it for you to come out originally even long before you met ross i struggled with it and i struggled with it internally as well as with telling my parents um for a long time i was like i i knew i was gay but i didn't want to know and i had a lot of gay

friends and i kind of felt like it's OK for them. But, you know, I obviously had a bit of a different upbringing. I was brought up kind of, well, of course, with my father in the public eye. And when I did tell my parents, I have to say I'd had a bit of alcohol. We were having a debate about the same-sex marriage bill going through England and Wales. And I felt at that point, you know, if I don't tell them now, I'm never going to tell them. And my mum did not seem surprised.

She may have had, I think she did have an inkling. And my dad kind of put his head in his hands and was a bit taken aback. But, you know, he's been fully supportive of me and of Ros and our relationships and that. He was very supportive at the actual marriage. What role did he play, Ros, when the two of you got married? In Scotland, of course, not in England, not in Northern Ireland. Well, we're both part Scottish,

and it meant that both our families had to travel to Scotland. So it seemed fair to do it there. And he played a very large part. I mean, my uncle gave me away, but he gave Vicky away. He walked you up the aisle, didn't he? Yeah, he walked me up the aisle. He did all the father of the bride duties, gave a speech. Very touching speech.

Very touching speech very touching speech yeah has he vicky completely changed his mind or is this one of those examples where parents say to themselves i'm not going to let my politics damage my child i think he i think he has changed his mind and i think that um obviously he's been in the public eye for quite a long time um and it would be it it would be a bit odd for him to treat me differently from anybody else I mean I know it did take that personal um connection for him to become more supportive um to realize that a homosexual relationship is just like any other. But I think that now that he's seen that and he's accepted us, I think that he is now more accepting of other people's relationships as well.

Ros, how much did you actually know about your father-in-law and his take on same-sex relationships and certainly same-sex marriage, before you met Vicky? I was very surprised to find out who Vicky's father was. Vicky said that her father was in politics and that was as far as that went. So I really didn't have any idea what I was getting into. Just a northern lass. Until it was too late. But how difficult has it been for you to to reconcile your feelings with suspecting that maybe your father-in-law didn't entirely approve

of what was going on um well i it's interesting because he's always been so nice to me and almost fatherly in a way because i don't have a father my father passed before I was born um so to to find out that this is a new thing was quite surprising um but he's always been very very very supportive yeah yeah how did the two of you meet we met on the south bank of the thames at a burlesque night um we'd both joined a group um that going, it was an online group. Social group. Social group, yeah. And they'd arranged an outing to Burlesque Night on, was it called Outer Belly? I can't remember.

I turned up early and I went through the list of people who were meant to be there. And I saw Vicky's photo and I messaged you went through the the list of people who were meant to be there and I saw Vicky's photo and I just text well I messaged you directly through the app and I said I'm here and I'm all alone and she said I'll be there in half an hour yeah and then we got on so well immediately that we didn't meet anyone else in the group and we've pretty much been together almost ever since the whole time ever since yeah so it was literally love at first sight. Yeah, it really was. Why were you so keen on marriage, Vicky?

Because you could have made a civil partnership, which has been legal in Northern Ireland since 2005. For me, it was important to be equal to my siblings, to other people I know who've got married. And I know the legal status is pretty much identical, to be a civil partner and to be married. But I wanted a wife. I wanted Roz to be my wife. And for me, that's an important distinction.

And Roz, what's the distinction for you? It just adds another level of security. I was actually always... I didn't want to get married. I never wanted to get married. I was very much, no, that's not for me. And then being with Vicky, that just changed. And we went to Barcelona for a weekend away. Went to a jazz bar, had a bit of wine.

You keep mentioning there's a bit of wine that can't be interesting. Well, yes, there was good jazz and good red wine. And we just started talking about marriage and both agreed that it would be something that we would be open to and came back. And then the weekend after, we went to Hatton Garden and came out with rings. It was like, oh, we're engaged now.

I suppose this means we're engaged. It was very much a joint, mutual decision. Obviously, you had to warn your dad that you were going to appear on Womza this morning and talk about it. What was his response when you told him? He told me to enjoy it. I don't think he expected any sort of the media coverage

that we've been getting since he mentioned us in the House of Lords. And he just told us to relax and enjoy it. How likely is it, do you think, Vicky, that the proposed changes in Northern Ireland will happen? I think now it is quite likely. I think it's very likely. Whether it's before an assembly is reformed or afterwards. I mean, the assembly did vote on same-sex marriage and voted it up by a majority to implement same-sex marriage, but it was vetoed. So I think that now, and the coverage that the issue has been getting across the UK, I think it's very likely that we will have same-sex marriage.

What do you think? I'm very hopeful we should have it. They should be there. Yeah. Very hopeful. It's interesting that Sarah Canning, whose partner, Laura McKee, was murdered not very long ago. She said that marriage rights has been used as a political football before, but shouldn't be.

What do you make of what she had to say in terms of it being used as a political football? I do agree with her. It has been used as a political football. I do agree with her. It has been used as a political football. But I think that there had to be some issue to be brought up to help reinstate

the Assembly in Northern Ireland. And if that gives equal marriage and gay rights the kind of platform to become more accepted and to be instated in Northern Ireland. Then I think that's, you know, we take what we can get and that's for the good. And also for abortion too. But you were brought up in York and you're really rather keen to take Vicky to Yorkshire and show her how beautiful Yorkshire is. Absolutely. Are you open to that, Vicky?

Absolutely. I have been to York once as a child and I remember going to the Jorvik Centre, but I would love to have a look around, go around York and see Ros's history, basically. It would be amazing to go and have a plod on the moors and what about Northern Ireland how keen are you on being in Northern Ireland yes well I have been there a couple of times with Vicky we did an open top bus tour which was amazing that was so much fun

what were you doing an open top bus tour for it was of Belfast because it was my first time not activism. You were just there to see as a tourist. Yes, for me just to have a look around and see everything. Yeah, and I learned some things as well. But neither of you would want to go back to York

or back to Northern Ireland to live? We've quite settled. Yeah, I think our life is in London. We've been getting involved in the community where we live we have our our flattener two cats so yeah yeah two cats of course vicky trimble rosalind stevens thank you both very much indeed for being with us and enjoy your flatten your two cats thank Thank you. Now in 2010, Professor Dame Sally Davis

became Chief Medical Officer for England. She's announced that she'll be stepping down in September to take on the role of Master at Trinity College Cambridge. In her time in the job, she's tried to persuade us to reduce the amount of time we and our children spend

gazing at screens, tackle the obesity crisis and think about cancer every time we open a bottle of wine. Most recently, we've read that she's championed what's described as a composite health index to help fight deadly illness. Sally, what is a composite health index? So I published on this in my annual report at the end of December last year. And the object of a composite health index is to get a conversation across government nationally, across local government and everywhere about have we got health in all policies? Are we taking action to improve people's health? I want it to sit by the GDP, and it needs to involve health outcomes,

modifiable risk factors, and social determinants of health. So it's putting those together, that's why it's a composite index, in the way that GDP is composite, and beginning to look at health every week, every month, whenever we look at GDP. How likely is it to happen? I attended the first governance meeting for the project a couple of weeks ago. How much difference do you reckon you have made

in the time that you've been in this job, in tackling that huge problem obesity well a beast is a slow burn it's getting worse slowly and to turn it round will take a long time and if i thought i'd made a big difference i'd be thrilled but there is no magic bullet. We know that. We know that we are going to have to take lots of small actions to reduce the calories that we eat in our food. The problem is, clearly, we all need to be active and physical activity is a bit of this, but it isn't the answer to being overweight or obese. We actually need an environment where it's easy to be healthy. And at the moment, the commercial determinants are that people go for profit and they push the marketing, the positioning and everything. We're going to have to address all of this, but it will take a long time.

And how politically open are people to reducing sugar in drinks, putting a sugar tax on, and just making the food industry be more aware of what, if people are going to buy prepared food, they need to put into it to make it healthy. I think the awareness is growing. It's not where it needs to be, clearly. Of course, we haven't in this country gone for a sugar tax, which other countries have quite successfully, we've gone for a sugar levy. And what that's done is get more than half of sugary sweet drinks reformulated to take excess sugar out, 45 million kilos a year actually taken out, so that we're not reducing choice or raising the cost to the consumer if they go for the low sugar alternative. So what we're trying to do is change the environment and not take away profit, but definitely not cost more to the woman with her basket wanting to feed her family. Now, what about alcohol? Because you did

say at one point that women should think about cancer every time they open a bottle of wine. I think you might have thought you'd been a little bit over the top when you said that quite so strongly. Well, I should have framed it better. But of course, it is true that there's a straight line between alcohol consumption and increased risk on breast cancer. So I could have framed it better. In fact, we were laughing the other day as I had a glass of wine and someone said, breast cancer? And I said, yes, it raises my risk. I'm prepared to drink at low risk levels, which is what our guidelines were. I think that the problem with obesity and alcohol is that people don't understand yet the risks.

That's why I welcome Cancer Research UK's new campaign highlighting the risks, increased risk of cancer. So the cigarette packet with obesity on it saying being obese is as dangerous as smoking. Yes. People need to know those risks. Then they make a choice. The people who say, hang on, no, that's fat shaming. Well, this is a difficult position we've got into in our society. And, you know, you can be beautiful and overweight or fat. And it is dreadful how social media and actually print media,

often when they're talking about overweight and obesity, show grossly overweight people, where there are many social factors, but of course, many genetic factors increasing their risk or tendency to overweight. But I shouldn't hide the risks and the issues related to overweight. I mean, think for women, if you're overweight, it's more difficult to get pregnant. And the risks to both mother and fetus are significantly raised. We want people to be healthy and lead happy lives. How willing do you think people are to try and take personal responsibility for their health? It's a very difficult conversation. We all want to, but doing it is different. So I often talk about, you know, I like good food and the canapé tray

going past and I've eaten a nice canapé before I think, oh bother, I didn't need any more calories. Automaticity plays in, the environment is all important. So wanting to take personal responsibility is only part of the story. We have to reshape our environments. As far as excessive screen time is concerned, what are the real dangers of that? Well, I think they've been overstated and there's issues about screen time,. And the work that comes out of Oxford, which I think is probably the most solid evidence-wise, is that it's chicken and egg. Children with mental health problems may spend too long on screens,

but was it the screens that gave them mental health problems? We don't know. We have to be very careful. They are part of life, and we should welcome the great advantages while being sensible. How much do you restrict your time? I remember there was some criticism of you. The Express tracked your emails and found you sent one at 10.30 one night. I think I was in the Far East but don't you want the government's chief medical advisor to check that all is well and respond if advice is needed?

But I don't take my phone into the bedroom at night. The office know if they need me. They have to ring the house phone. I read the newspaper online because it's handy. But I'm not massively online. How did you respond to being accused of nannying the nation? I remember you being called nanny-in-chief. I think that was on today.

I was particularly thrown on that day because it came early in the conversation. I expect it late. What worries me is two things. The first is, is it because I'm the first woman CMO that people are gendered and talk about nannying? So there's that aspect. Then the other is, so is nannying bad? I mean, plenty of people have had nannies. This is about helping women have careers. It's about women developing. It's actually an important role for many women too. So why put nannying in the bad box? Why not accept it's part of life and helpful? Your rather big concern has been trying to reduce the use of antibiotics in an

unnecessary way. How effective has that work been? So I'm very concerned about drug resistant infections and the death rate and cost to society from this across the world. And nationally, we're doing pretty well. We've reduced use of antibiotics in general practice by 13 percent. We've reduced it in animals by 40 percent in this country. Globally, we're not doing as well, but we have raised the issue. UK leadership is recognised across the world for raising the issue, for supporting low-income countries to develop their laboratories and their surveillance so they can start to do better.

But this is a long, difficult road. We're discussing imposter syndrome later in the programme, and I know at one point you said you'd suffered from it. Why on earth? I mean, come on, look how high you went. Yes, and I'm moving on to another first. I don't know why one does. It's partly cultural, isn't it? Because so many of us women do have it.

Even now, I was nervous before coming in here. I get nervous, but that makes for a good performance, arguably. But yes, I have did, and I still occasionally face it. And I have visual ways of cranking myself up to cope with it. Professor Dame Sally Davies, thank you very much for being with us this morning. The very best of luck. Thank you, Jenny. The master of Trinity. Yes, the first woman master. Now, still to come in today's programme, that imposter syndrome.

Why is it so common for successful people to fear being found out? And is it possible to cure that sense of not being quite good enough? And the serial, the fourth episode of Moon. Now, on Monday evening at the Proms, there'll be the world premiere at Cadogan Hall of a piece written for The Voice called Earthwood.

The composer is Alexia Sloan, who was commissioned to write the piece after winning the 2018 BBC Proms Inspire Contest. Obviously, we can't give you a sample of Earthwood as it hasn't been performed and recorded yet. Instead, here's part of Elegy for Aelin, which was written for the competition....

Alexia, what was it that inspired Elegy for Aylan who was washed up on a Turkish beach who then subsequently kind of became a bit of an icon of for the refugee crisis for want of a better term. So it was a piece about the refugee crisis in a sense and a reaction to it. And when you sat down to write that piece, what were you seeing in your head as you created the sounds? So this particular piece, the method I used to write it was quite a motivic approach. So I had this leap that goes upwards and then falls a little bit like a calling motif um that you might go um and i i kind of i gradually shrink it throughout the piece to give a sense of the the hope of finding this child by someone searching for him um kind of gradually fading so i guess that was the main method that I was using. How surprised were you to win the competition

and get a big commission? Oh, I was so surprised. I actually, I fought with my mum for months about which piece to send because I just really, really didn't want to send Elegy for Ireland. I honestly didn't think I'd get anywhere at all with it. Why? Why were you not convinced that was the one?

I'm not sure. I guess, I mean, I'd been really lucky to have a performance of it previously by Ensemble 1010 from another commission that I was involved in. But somehow it just, I was just very uncertain. I also wasn't sure that it was fair to send something that had already received quite a prestigious performance. So yeah, I mean, obviously, I was delighted and really grateful. And your mother was right. She was.

What inspired the new piece, Earthwood? So the new piece, Earthwood, is an environmentally engaged piece. It's about a desire to reconnect with nature to kind of, in a way, subvert the intensely statistical approach, or that's how I see it, of the media and of politics quite often, to crises such as climate change, the extinction crisis, and so on. So I think that that kind of rhetoric is really to the detriment of our sense of connection with nature. So I'm trying in this piece to reconnect us to the natural world and to how we really feel about it. What made you be so passionate about the environment?

The environment, I feel like it encompasses almost all of the social and political issues of our time um i'm i'm very passionate about um kind of queer rights and uh about kind of uh human rights and so on in general and i just see climate change as being at the the thing that brings all of those together, and it's kind of all-encompassing, I think. I have to just quote to you a tweet that you put out. Gay non-binary female assigned Buddhist who composes using Braille music notation.

Well, what can I say? You've got to tick those diversity boxes right. I wonder if you could unpick a few of those for me. OK, so, well, how would you like me to unpick them? Well, let's start with gay non-binary female assigned Buddhist. OK, so, well, these are identities that I've gradually accumulated, discovered, whichever phrase we prefer to use over the years. So this was a kind of, well, it was both a final coming out tweet and also, I guess, a comment about diversity in music in general,

which I think is a really interesting issue. How much is diversity entering into the area of serious music or not? Well, diversity, like, I think it's really wonderful that, so this year at the Pro-Oms, they are really prioritising female composers so that there's at least one assigned female composer per concert. And some might see that as tokenistic, but I see it more as representative. We've been kind of silenced for so long as female assigned composers

and I think it's kind of right that we're being heightened to the same position as our male counterparts. And how does your Buddhism work for your work? Well, Buddhism for me is what brings my activism and my creative practice together, I think. So Earthwood, for instance, is very much a Buddhist inspired piece. In Buddhism, a fairly common misconception is that all Buddhists worship the Buddha. And in some cases, that's true. And there's, of course, nothing wrong with that. But also many of us don't. And really, the central sacred part of Buddhism is nature. And so I think that's what this particular piece and many of my others in the past have been about.

It's about kind of replacing the kind of white male patriarchal image of the divine with nature and with what's actually part of us. And then there's one other bit of that tweet that I have to ask you about. Who composes using Braille music notation? Yes. So I've been non-sighted since I was two. And therefore I use Braille both for writing poetry, which I do as well as music, and of course, anything academia related, and also my music. So we have a notational method in Braille, which works very differently to print notation, but achieves the same result. You're at the Northern College of Music now. How long before you finally qualify? So I have two years left of my degree and then yes we'll have to see what happens after that. How nervous are you about next Monday because I don't think you've had a full rehearsal yet with the voices.

I haven't. I haven't. I haven't had any rehearsal at all, actually. So, I mean, it's a huge mixture of emotions. It's both obviously intense excitement and gratitude to everyone who's arranged it and to the ensemble for working with me and so on but also it is horribly nerve-wracking i mean i haven't heard the piece as you say but uh of course i have complete trust in botches eight i've had some wonderful correspondences with them and i have every faith that they're going to do a wonderful job alexia sloan the very best of luck for monday night thank you very much indeed for being with us and just to repeat that Earthward will receive its world premiere as part of the Proms

Chamber Music Series at the Cadogan Hall on Monday and it will also be broadcast live on Radio 3. Thank you very much Alexia. Thank you very much. Now a couple of weeks ago we had an email from Claire Poole who's a regular listener to Woman's Hour

I wonder, she wrote if you might consider featuring imposter syndrome. As a mildly successful woman in business, in frequently male-dominated areas, I find myself very often feeling like an imposter. Well, Claire is not alone. You often hear women and some men saying how much they fear that their inadequacy will be found out. We heard it from Dame Sally earlier.

Why do so many people who've done well and are perfectly competent at their jobs think they're only there by mistake? Well, Dr. Josemaria Hibbert is a clinical psychologist and the author of The Imposter Cure, and we're joined by Claire Poole. Claire, why did you write to us? Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here. So for me, I find it a fascinating area.

It's something, as I said, I run a couple of businesses, and I call myself mildly successful. But when I'm invited, especially to speak at events or put myself forward as kind of an expert in a particular area I find this nagging thought in my head that I'm not quite good enough or maybe not as good as everyone else who I might be on a panel with and it's just I kind of rail against it because you know I've been invited to something on merit I haven't asked to be there I've been invited but there's this persistent nagging in those scenarios. And I think it seems to be perhaps more verbalised, at least by women.

Why did you define it as imposter syndrome? Well, not being a clinical psychologist, but just, you know, thinking about it myself, there is that feeling of perhaps not being a fraud as such but perhaps not holding yourself up in the same esteem as perhaps the people who have invited you to give your views on something view as so I guess that's why I kind of put it in those terms. Jessamy how do you define imposter syndrome clinically? The official definition was termed by Dr Clance and Dr Emmett in 1978. And they describe it as a phenomenon in which you don't believe you're worthy of success and you have a persistent belief in your lack of ability, skills or competence, despite evidence to the contrary. you know, I'm mildly successful running two businesses and being asked to speak at these events. And like you've picked up on what is it that makes you feel like a fraud? Actually,

it's that interpretation of the feeling. You know, when you're doing something like standing up and speaking, particularly at a big event, you'll push out your comfort zone and it's natural that you would experience some discomfort. That discomfort is just saying, you know, can I do it? I really care about this and I want to do well. That discomfort's just saying, you know, can I do it? I really care about this and I want to do well. And what's key is how you interpret that discomfort. And that's where imposters actually get it wrong because that's just human.

Everybody feels uncertain at times. It doesn't mean that you're a fraud or can't do it. There are two terms which have been very familiar for a long time and I think clearly defined, perfectionism and low self-esteem. How does imposter syndrome differ from those two things? Well, low self-esteem and perfectionism can be part of imposter syndrome, but you're not necessarily, you know, feeling like an imposter with both of those things. And the difference is that with low self-esteem, for example,

you're worried you're not good enough, but then you do something and actually take on board that success. So you see that you could do it even though you thought you couldn't. And with perfectionism, it's about having very high standards and wanting to do really well. Whereas with imposter syndrome, you might actually succeed, as I'm sure you have at those events, Claire, and yet you don't take it on board.

And that's where the problem lies. succeed as I'm sure you have at those events Claire and that you don't take it on board and that's where the problem lies anything that you're doing well at you put down to external circumstances you know I just worked really hard or it was luck or it was just good timing whereas if anything goes wrong. Where does it originate then? I think that it does come from a feeling of not being good enough and that that belief actually... Where does that start? That generally starts in childhood. So it can start, you know, depending on what you're doing. So perhaps you get to university and you've always kind of been bright and top of the class and suddenly you realise there's lots of other people who are clever too.

But more commonly, that kind of feeling starts in childhood as when you're growing up, you learn from the people closest to you and they inform your views of the world, but also the beliefs you hold about yourself. And so if you've got somebody telling you that, you know, in a kind of outward way you're not doing well enough or that it's critical of you, then when you do well, it doesn't fit with what you know about yourself. And also when you have mixed messages, it can be really confusing. So sometimes people feel like you're doing well, sometimes people are saying you're not doing well

and you're not sure quite where you measure with it Claire, what might have happened in your upbringing to kick this off? I find it really interesting because I could not have had a more supportive, loving upbringing in terms of my family and the way I was brought up always beyond you're good enough, you're great you can do whatever you want, you're great you know you can

do whatever you want you can succeed you can really take on the world I don't feel as though there was any any barriers to that for me and so that's fascinating and whether it's something more ingrained I don't know but I certainly couldn't point to to that feeling around me were you ever told not to show off and not to think too much of yourself? I remember, no, definitely not within my family. I remember in a school report sort of saying Claire needs to stop talking, maybe quite so much, and being a little bit, not disruptive, but, you know, a big chatter, even from an early age.

So maybe something like that. But I think in terms of, again, my upbringing and my familial background, absolutely not, no. I wonder how common, again, my upbringing and my familial background, absolutely not. I wonder how common, though, Jessamy, that idea of humility, being told you must be humble is there. And you kind of think it's a good thing that you should be humble and you shouldn't be showing off. But then maybe that's having a real impact on you. I completely agree. I think that it's really ingrained, particularly as women, that self-depreciation is a good thing. And that, you know, owning your achievements or talking about them is something that, you know, you shouldn't really do. And that makes you much more disconnected from your success.

And there's something slightly unacceptable about it still now, you know, in some circles for women. And I think that makes it much harder to talk about it and think about it because it feels like it's being boastful or arrogant, whereas actually it's just acknowledging your strengths. I know, Claire, that you think this is more common in the women you know. Yeah. Why? I don't know. I've had a number of conversations about it,

and I think definitely I don't think it's something that afflicts women in its entirety. A lot of male colleagues, friends, my husband, etc, all talk about the same things. I think maybe we just verbalise it more. I'm not sure. But I think a friend of mine who's an academic, you know, she said she felt it a lot more at the early stages of her career. And now as she's, you know, a doctor and published, etc, she feels those feelings have dissipated. Whereas for me, building a business, it almost feels as though there's more at stake. So as you continue to succeed, it's almost, I don't know,

kind of a career vertigo where you feel as though you're getting further and further and it becomes a bit more high stakes maybe. Jasmine, to what extent is there a gendered aspect to it? It definitely affects men and women. And recent research showed that it's about two thirds of women within the last year who've experienced it and just over half of men. And I think that also what feeds into it is a sense of belonging. So the higher up you get in your career, it's whether or not you feel like other people are like you. And so for many women who are kind of at the top of their career or running businesses, there are less of them. And so they don't feel part of the core group. And I think there's also the second part of it is just you only hear what's going on in your head. So you're worrying and you're thinking you're not up to it. And you're judging how everybody else is doing from the outside with how you're feeling on the inside without really realising that everybody else is sitting there worrying in the same way. The book is called The Imposter Cure.

How do you cure it? I think in the book, there's loads of different strategies that I cover. But one of the biggest things is just really starting to internalise your success. So there is something you talk about and that you notice and you go against the voice that says you're an imposter. People will think you're showing off. But I'm not saying to shout about it. I suppose I'm just saying to talk about it with the people

you care most about it and even to write things down to really pay attention to all the good things you're doing. And I think it's also important to externalise that voice and see that the problem isn't that you're an imposter, it's that you feel like one. And feeling like one doesn't mean you are one. There's all this evidence to the contrary. And when you start to become more aware of that voice and what it's telling you isn't the truth, it's much easier to go against it and to speak up more or kind of go for the things that you care about. So, Claire, now you're sitting in a meeting,

you're surrounded by very strong and powerful men. What are you going to be thinking in your head? I've got my Strata Juice now, Jessamy's book. No, I think it's about having a conversation and I think it's, as I said, I think it's useful to talk about and think about in that respect and by almost saying it,

it decatastrophises it and it gets out of the way. But I wonder, yeah, in terms of the gendered perspective, whether we're shooting ourselves in the foot a little bit by speaking about it in that way openly in meetings and sort of prefacing a meeting with oh imposter syndrome and I wonder if that's making it worse or better I don't know maybe just talk to your mates yeah and your husband yeah and never ever mention it when you're in one of those meetings or you're about to speak right agreed okay agreed i was talking to claire pool and dr jessamine hibbard on vicky trimble joanna said

it's great to hear vicky and her wife on women's hour like them i'd like to see equality in relationships for everyone and that includes people like me in heterosexual relationships who want a civil partnership and not a marriage. What happened to that pledge from Theresa May? On Sally Davis, somebody who didn't want to be named said, I've just heard the interview and was worried by her assumption that screen time is not necessarily damaging to children's health. I teach and have been surprised by how many children are being diagnosed with speech and language delay and communication problems.

When some of these children are picked up from school, we see their mothers handing them a screen as they get into the car to travel home. When do these parents talk to their children? John said public health is such an important issue. I often feel a mixture of sadness and anger when it's trivialised with the nanny state phrase. I would like to congratulate Dame Sally for her contribution and I hope that all those with influence will support sensible change. And then to the imposter syndrome. totally identify with this. I work fairly high up in a very male-dominated environment and I definitely feel that I'm not good enough. It was refreshing to know I'm not the only one. Thank you. Carly said, I have yet to meet a PhD candidate who doesn't have imposter syndrome,

especially those who've come through a non-direct route, for example, mature students. In my case, it comes from not being able to believe my luck. Stephanie said, I remember hearing Bill Nye being interviewed about his acting career, and he said he was just waiting to be found out. Now, tomorrow, I'll be talking to the author Jessica Pan. She describes herself as a shy introvert who spent a year trying to become an extrovert. What did she learn from that experience? Join me tomorrow, if you can, at two minutes past ten. Until then, bye-bye.

Hello. Sorry to interrupt your content consumption, but can I quickly suggest a podcast you might like? It's called Grown-Up Land. Every week, comedian Heidi Regan, podcaster Ned Sedgwick, if that is even a job, Syrian dreamboat Steve Alley, and me, comedian Sophie Duker,

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