Woman's Hour - Young kids and screen time, Adoption Act centenary, The Ayoub Sisters

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Parents of under-fives in England are to be offered official advice on how long their children should spend watching TV or looking at computer screens. It comes as government research shows about 98% of children under two were watching screens on a daily basis - with parents, teachers and nursery staff saying youngsters were finding it harder to hold conversations or concentrate on learning. To discuss this further Nuala McGovern is joined by Kate Silverton, child counsellor and parenting author, and Professor Sonia Livingstone from the London School of Economics and author of Parenting for a Digital Future. Heather Rose's latest novel, A Great Act of Love, is set around a real-life vineyard in Tasmania in the early 19th century. This was at a time when Tasmania, or Van Diemen’s Land as it was called then, was still a British penal colony. It was while she was researching this book that Heather discovered her own family’s dark history and its connection to the land, which she has interwoven into the story. This year marks the centenary of the Adoption of Children Act 1926. It was the first legislation enabling the legal adoption of children in England and Wales, with equivalent legislation passed in Northern Ireland in 1929 and in Scotland in 1930. Joining Nuala to discuss the significance of the passing of this act is Dame Carol Homden, Chief Executive of Coram, Harriet Ward, Emeritus Professor at Loughborough University and currently writing a book about the history of adoption, and Zoe Lambert, who was adopted at five months old and is the founder of In-Between Lines, that works with adoptees, adoption agencies and advocacy groups. The Ayoub Sisters are Scottish Egyptian siblings Sarah and Laura Ayoub who play cello and violin. Their debut album was recorded in Abbey Road Studios with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Their second album, Arabesque, was released independently and went to number one in the iTunes chart. They are about to undertake a UK tour to celebrate their 10th anniversary, which will include the premiere of their Arabic Symphony in a homecoming concert in Glasgow. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, this morning we'll get into that study just mentioned in the news bulletin, which has found that screen time hinders toddler speech. We do know by age two, almost all children are watching screens, and we do know that it's an emotive subject. But I'd like to know from you, how are you man to manage?

Managing screen time with under fives. Is it a struggle? And where exactly is the struggle if you can share? And what would you like guidance most on when it comes to little kids and screens? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or voice note.

The number is 0300-100-400-444. also today, from a murder on Battersea Bridge to a vineyard in Tasmania. The author Heather Rose will tell us about her new novel, A Great Act of Love. She'll also tell us about how a dark part of her family's history made its way into this book. Plus, it's 100 years since the Adoption Act was passed, which legalised the process for the very first time. We have a number of guests who will help us understand its significance and also the present day impact. And we have the Scottish Egyptian Ayub sisters performing live in studio on cello and violin.

They were warming up when I came into the studio earlier. So let me just tell you, you are in for a treat this hour. But first, too, that story where I'm asking for your experiences. Parents of under fives in England are to be offered official advice on how long their children should spend watching TV or looking at computer screens. It comes as government research was published showing that about 90, 8% of children under two were watching screens on a daily basis. With parents, teachers and nursery staff saying youngsters were finding it harder to hold conversations

or concentrate on learning. The government says it will publish its first guidance on screen time for the age group in April. So to discuss this further, I'm joined by Kate Silverton, a child counsellor and parenting author, and Professor Sonia Livingston, who is at the London School of Economics and the author of parenting for a digital future. Perhaps a digital present as well, Sonia. Good to have both of you with us. Sonia, what do you think has led the government

to make this announcement now? Well, I think it's actually been a long time coming and parents have been asking for this. Experts have been asking for guidance from the government for years now. But this new survey has some provocative findings. They compare nine-month-old and children at nine months and then later at two years

and find that those who have been exposed to a very high amount of screen time, about five hours a day, have less vocabulary. And, you know, that raises all kinds of questions, really, about what's going on in those homes where children are watching for five hours a day, but also, of course, fits with concerns about how children are developing in a digital age. Kate, what about those numbers? Were you surprised by how high screen use is for some? I think most of us struggle with monitoring our own screen time and are often surprised by how often we've been on a screen during the day.

The WHO is actually really clear on this, which is interesting, that we still haven't got this clarity, isn't it? So I really welcome hearing more. But under twos, according to the WHO, are best with, and I think this is going to come as a shock to many of us, with no sedentary screen time at all, aside from something like video calling with family. and two to four-year-olds should have no more than about one hour a day of what they call high-quality interactive screen use, ideally less. So certainly there's enough research emerging for us to question the wisdom of our children spending time passively in front of screens for long periods.

I am struck by that word you use as well, adding to screen time sedentary. So like if you are passive, I suppose, do you want to expand on that, Kate, how you understand it? Well, what our brains, so when babies are born into the world, their brain is very primitive, it's still developing. And our babies are completely dependent on us for their survival. So it's why the brain does its fastest development in those first three years of life.

And what our babies are dependent on and what the brain is dependent on is human engagement, being talked to, played with, held, moved, emotionally met, not through passive watching. And I think that's the thing. It's kind of, it's not that what promotes healthy brain development is human engagement. We can't get away from that. You know, screens might be part of modern life, but the human brain hasn't changed for thousands of years. Well, that WHA advice, I'd like to bounce that around with both of you. What age was it under no screen time at all, Kate, did you say?

Under twos. Under twos, no screen time whatsoever. Do you think that's realistic? You asking me, sorry. Well, look, I'm a mom. I think that every parent wants to feel empowered by information. We don't want opinion-led parenting. But I think we are, for me, I'm passionate about evidence-based research.

And it's clear to me now that, well, not now. I mean, this is research that I've been doing for many, many years. We have to take that on board. We are all in the brain development business. And if we want to do our job well, and I mean us as parents, I mean schools, I mean the tech giants, we need to really pay attention to the evidence that is already there and the research that is continuing to emerge. What do you think about that, Sanya?

Under 2's no screen time whatsoever, realistic. So I also think we don't want to start building a rod for our own backs. You know, we have to be realistic about the world that parents are in. And often we're talking about a mum on her own at home, you know, with a toddler probably driving her mad. So, you know, let's not create such an impossible requirement that actually no one can survive it. But I do think we should make a distinction between, I agree, there is not really evidence that screen time when they're little is helpful. But there is evidence that if you're going to have some screen time, not too much, but some, then some kinds of content on screen are more helpful than others.

And some ways that the parents can engage with the child and the screen are, you know, so, If, for example, what you're watching is a super fast-paced cartoon in which the child just kind of sits and stares at one and a half, there's no evidence of benefit. But if you're talking about that same child watching something that is kind of slower that offers the parent some games and songs that they can sing with their child and the child is looking at the parent as well and the parent is doing the responding, then that's not harmful. And so we could say, you know, not all parents who've got all the songs and stories at their fingertips and they don't always know how to, you know, occupy their child for hours every day. So sometimes that can be helpful as a way of encouraging the parent-child to do exactly that interaction. Yeah, I think I also want to clarify, we're not talking, are we, about sort of 10 minutes. We're talking about this extended period that you first started discussing.

So I want to be clear on that from my perspective as well. But as you say, we don't want to make a rod for parents back. But I do think it's really helpful for parents to know what is good for their children's brain development and actually maybe what we might want to change. And I will just go through some of those figures again. So children with the highest screen use around five hours a day could say significantly fewer words than those with the lowest screen use. But even that was around 44 minutes a day. People will have no doubt different thoughts on whether that is a little or a lot.

But you know, Kate, we can talk about what's put in front of the child. But, you know, they are sponges, right? And even if you are limiting screen use, maybe even your own screen use, go on public transport, go to a restaurant. People are on their phones. The other adults that they will be imitating are on these tiny screens in front of them. Do you have any thoughts about that? It's really hard, first of all, and I get it. Any parent that has taken their young ones to a restaurant or anything, but what I will say is, look, screens haven't always been here.

So we've had to work with our children, and they're very limited attention span for quite a long time. And there's so many different ways and means that we can support our children and ourselves in those moments. And I think it's that thing of, look, I mean, I'm not trying to idealise it, but as I say, I'm a parent with young kids. What our children really, when they start after sort of two and three,

their brain wants that they're curious. So yes, very young, they're dependent on us, but they're designed to be curious. So actually, once we set our children up, and it can, once you do it, it becomes a lot easier. When you set them up in play, there is then time. Once a child gets engaged in something, and if you're out for dinner, getting them with a coloring book or a little game that they're playing with their siblings or whatever. And trust, because I've had to do it, that short-term pain of getting them into that in the first place gives us the long-term game. Because eventually the brain, which is wired for play and curiosity, takes them into that zone.

zone and then you get your piece. So it's almost like this small window you have to get them into the zone of play and then you can do your thing and get on with what we need to be getting on with. But if we just sort of just pick up the screen because it works, I will say we are, the other thing to consider is do you want a teen that's going to be a lot more difficult to get off that screen later on? We want our children bonding with us, not with their iPad. So kind of thinking about the future as well. A message coming in. I'm mum. to a seven-year-old and let him watch screens during nappy changes at a time when I needed to go to, when he was a toddler, I needed to go to the Lou, for example. I'm not very proud of it, but what I'm concerned about now is that I'm expecting a second child and cannot see how no screens for them would be possible.

That's Miriam. Thanks for your honesty. Another saying, I can't believe people need guidance on this. It's surely a no-brainer. Don't put a young child in front of a screen. It's simple. says another 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. But why we're talking about this morning is that there is guidance to come out in April. We hear that the government is looking for advice from people like yourselves, experts, people who are working with children, parents, of course, teachers, etc.

What advice would you give Sonia? What would you like guidance on? What do you think is the nub of it? I think parents would probably value a range of kinds of advice. I mean, one is ways to play with your child, singing games, nursery rhymes, sources of fun that you can do with your child, and some of that might come from a screen, but it might not. It might come along with the NHS guidance on food or keeping your home safe,

which, you know, currently there isn't any screen time. advice coming from NHS or from health visitors that I can see or that parents tell me. I think given that we're acknowledging there's going to be some screen time, I think a really crucial question parents ask is, okay, so which kinds are okay and which kinds are not. And that's something I would love the government advice to give real attention to. You know, basically a screen cannot ever respond to your child. Your child can say something, they can join in, they can guess what comes next in the story, they can walk away from and the screen has no idea.

So it's profoundly unresponsive. And I think, you know, if there are some ways in which some kind of content can do a to and fro sometimes with the child or encourage the parent to do that or a sibling. So be it. I understand. Kate, let me turn it over to you. What would you like to see? Well, I would say young children don't develop from what they watch. They develop from who they're with.

So as you say, if that is with something that helps you engage with your child, then great. But what about a book? What about, you know, games? So there's lots of things we can do with our toddlers and our young children that don't involve screens. And actually, make us feel better in the process. You know, we want to be bonding with our children. I get that it's hard. I think parents have never had it harder in terms of the pressures that we have on our time and the pools that we have.

But it really, I think, when it comes to screens and how much we know that children need us, for their attunement and for their regulation. You know, toddlers need help with their emotional regulation. If we're 20 seconds, they're not going to get that with a screen. So what we're doing is helping to shape a healthy brain. And who doesn't want that for their child? I think there was something else interesting in the research about reading books. We showed actually reading books has not changed in 10 years.

So parents are doing it, but not all parents are doing it. And again, that's something the guidance could encourage. And I just do want to read a statement from the Education Secretary. Bridget Philipson, who says we know from the evidence and from what parents and teachers are telling us that too much passive screen time can start to crowd out the talking, the play and reading that are so important for children's language and development in the early years. That's why this guidance will be shaped by parents and sit alongside Best Start family hubs rolling out in every local area, helping ensure our youngest children get the best start in life and can seize the opportunities ahead. I want to thank Kate Silverton and also Professor Sonia Livingston. and to you for all the messages that are coming in, I'll continue to read them throughout the programme.

Now, we are going to travel 10,000 miles to Tasmania to speak to the author Heather Rose. Heather's latest novel, A Great Act of Love, is set around a vineyard in Tasmania in the early 19th century that did exist. Tasmania, or Van Diemen's Land, as it was called then, was still a British penal colony. But it was while Heather was researching this book

that she discovered her own family's dark history and its connection to the land, which is actually interwoven into this story. She joins me from Hobart this morning, or should I say this evening, hello, Heather. Good morning, Noelle, how are you? Really well, great to have you with us. At the heart of your book is The Vineyard.

It's had been famous for its sparkling wine or champagne as it was allowed to be called back then. When your main character, Caroline, arrives in Tasmania, finds it abandoned and overgrown and she wants to restore it. So we thought we would start with a passage from the book about Caroline's relationship with nature, plants and vines. Beautiful. So this passage mentions Nicholas Colpepper,

who was a famous botanist and herbalist, and he is an essential source of information for Caroline as she has studied to be an apothecrest. So here it is. Mr. Colpeper had declared that nothing grows in vain. The earth is a patient teacher and offers no gift without purpose. God and nature are the unfailing sources from which all cures spring forth, intertwining life and healing in a tapestry both intricate and profound. Each leaf, each root, each bloom holds within it the promise of a

restoration, a quiet assurance that in every cycle of decay lies the potential for rebirth, waiting only for the eye to see and the heart to understand. I love the description of the natural world that you have in this book. Tell us a little bit about the idea for including an award-winning vineyard where it came from. Well, it started with a dinner where I was placed next to a famous winemaker, and he told me of this vineyard in early 1820s, Tasmania, when it was called Van Diemen's Land, that had apparently made such a spectacular. a sparkling wine, that it had made it all the way to Paris, where it won a prize in a Paris

wine show. And I said to him, don't tell anyone else that story. I want to do something with that. And then when I started doing the research into the vineyard, I discovered it was basically right next door to where my first ancestor to arrive in Tasmania settled. Well, this is where things begin to intertwine in a way, shall we say. Caroline, your protagonist, her grandmother and grandfather were a Duke and Duchess, guillotined during the French Revolution. Her young father and aunt then escaped to England. This is a story that you were told about your own ancestors.

That's right. I grew up with the story that we were descended from a Duke and Duchess. They were beheaded in the French Revolution. Their son escaped to Scotland and his daughter came to Tasmania. as a free settler, but when it was still called Van Diemen's Land. But she arrived as a young widow because apparently her husband had fallen over Niagara Falls on their honeymoon. And how did you find this out?

My mother told those stories over and over again. And I was so intrigued my young writing mind. And I remember thinking that it was very suspicious that someone would go over Niagara Falls on their honeymoon. and as it happens, the records don't go back that far, so I wasn't able to confirm that. But of course, there's a much darker story to the French Revolution and the emigrants,

emigres from the French Revolution, who are my ancestors, because, yes, there were two of them, a brother and a sister, and yes, they did go first to Scotland, and then they came to London, and he became a famous chemist. In the book, he's an apothecist, which he also was. And of course, the mingling of fact and fiction then gets very complex.

But it felt important to tell that story, even though it's such a dark story and nothing that one could ever be proud of in one's ancestors. But there was a certain coming to terms with the past in writing this book. And do you want to say what that was? Well, it begins, the book begins with a famous murder on the Battersea Bridge. and the murderer was my ancestor, the son of the Duke and Duchess. But you didn't realise that until properly researching this book? Indeed.

My sister did some research into the family history and she knew I was looking into that period of time and she went back and looked in the records and then in the old Bailey records and found that he had committed this horrific crime and being sentenced to life in prison on Norfolk Island, which is off the coast of Sydney. Was it difficult to decide whether to include that in your novel?

Because I suppose it's a history that belongs to all of your family, not just you. It felt very important somehow to own it. I think if any of us were to look back seven generations, there would be violence, there would be mayhem, there would be acts of savagery and acts of courage and acts of great bravery and indeed acts of love. And we are born of a tradition being humans of wanting to survive at all costs. And so none of us can really be sure that these acts of violence aren't part of our past too.

And that felt very hard to come to terms with because it was so personal to our family. but important to tell that story. Because I think Tasmania is also so much part of this story and part of your story. But you don't shy away from the fact, for example, the brutality of it as a British penal colony at that time. It was a violent time. And the colony of Van Damansland was very harsh,

as was Norfolk Island. They were places of great penitenti. and the treatment of women was excruciatingly difficult. And, you know, people came out here to Van Diemen's Land that became Tasmania in 1856. They had no hope of ever returning to England. They were sentenced for their life. Very, very, very, very few of them ever got the sort of pardon

that would allow them to go back. And indeed, very few even tried because they realised they could have a much better life here in Australia. Let's talk about the women. there are a number of characters that you talk about for example a woman who stole a horse but then ended up having to live there

as a teenage girl might I add but you know people didn't talk about what it was that they had done there's Bessie who was only 15 when she was sentenced to 14 years for poaching because she was desperate for food for example how would you describe the life of

the girls really and women that were sent to Tasmania or Van Gogh demons land. Vulnerable and extraordinarily courageous. Those women lived through not only this extraordinary sea voyage, which was horrific in itself, you know, anything from six to eight months, sometimes even longer. Below decks, very rarely let up on deck other than for a Sunday service, a church service, they were, you know, they were at the effect of the weather. They're in these huge old brigantines, there are 170 of them or so, with their children, sent out. And then when they arrived in colonial van demons land, there they'd been on deck for, you know, below decks for

seven months. You can imagine how you would be physically challenged to do anything after that kind of darkness and the dreadful diet that they were given. They were then put up on deck, lined up on deck, and the men of the colony would come and choose who they would like to be their servants. And of course, if a woman got pregnant, she was sent back to the women's factory in Hobart in Tasmania. And when the child was born, it was put into the orphanage, which was again a horrific place. And then she was sent back out to service again. She was lined up again in front of the female factory as they all were. And men came along and chose them for service. It's so interesting because you do chronicle really the brutality or the history.

of a country, which many countries will have, of course, but also what comes true is this beauty of a land that you obviously love. You know, they talk about nominative determinism. I'm like, your name is Heather Rose, maybe that part of your connection

when nature of being able just to describe it so beautifully. How would you describe your family and your relationship to Tasmania? Well, I would fight you if you tried to take me away from it. I feel very deeply connected to the land here and to the sea here, to the skyscates, to the bird life. And I think one of the most beautiful things about writing the book and

going back 200 years was to see the scale of nature. I hadn't really understood the extent to which we have decimated nature until I did the research into this book and read the accounts of Charles Darwin and Louisa Anne Meredith, a famous British writer. And, you know, she's about a flock of birds. She's sailing up the Derwent River, which is a large river that comes into the harbour of Hobart. She's sailing up the Derwent River in 1836. And a flock of birds goes overhead

and it is four hours before that flock passes and the sun becomes visible again. That's how big the flocks of birds were. And the scale of nature was extraordinary. The trees were so enormous. The bird life was so rich. The wildlife, the marsupial life, the sea life. All of it was so rich.

We were living in a paradise. And I think that's probably one thing that the convict saw when they came was they were able to make a life here because there was such bounty from the land and from the sea. and nowhere near as much competition as there was in London. It's called a great act of love. What does that mean to you without giving away the plot of the book? Well, Caroline, our heroine, in a great act of love,

comes out to colonial Tasmania in order to start a new life, to get away from the dreadful truth of her father's actions. And she finds this vineyard. and she decides that maybe this is a way to reclaim something for her family, to build a new future. And so she sees this vineyard as a possibility for a family that tells a different story in the future. And that in itself is a great act of love. Heather Rose, thank you so much speaking to us from Tasmania.

So funny to see it's dark outside behind you. Wonderful to have you on. A great act of love is out. this week. Thank you for all your messages that are coming in. Let me read a couple. I'm a mom of two boys, age seven and five. When they were little, I often felt isolated at home and often allowing my baby and toddler to watch TV was the only way to cope. If we had more support, such as peer-to-peer support groups, better paid maternity leave for a full 12 months and more support returning to work, then we can thrive rather than just survive. Another, my boys are four and six. I did zero screen time

before three. It was hard. undoubtedly better for them. They now play independently for a very long period of time. They have brilliant communication skills. We're fully conversational by two. Neither has ever had a tantrum. No proof. This is connected, but I think it is.

People might have opinions on that as well. 8-4-844. Love to hear your thoughts on screen time, particularly for those under twos, as we've been talking about this morning. Now, also this morning, this year marks the centenary of the Adoption of Children Act 1926.

This was the first legislation enabling the legal adoption of children in England and Wales with the equivalent legislation passed in Northern Ireland in 1929, in Scotland in 1930. And it created a legal framework to permanently transfer parental rights and responsibilities from birth parents to adoptive parents. I have a number of people that are going to chat with me this morning about this. We have Dame Carol Humden, who is Chief Executive of Corum, the first and longest serving children's charity in the UK. Harriet Ward, Emeritus Professor at Loughborough University,

currently writing a book about the history of adoption. And also joining us is Zoe Lambert, who was adopted at five months old and is the founder of Inbetween Lines that works with adoptees, adoption agencies and advocacy groups. Good morning to all of you. You're all very welcome. Let me start with you, Carol. What were the lives of vulnerable children like before this act was passed?

Well, I think we need to remember that a century ago, we were on the back of the Great War. and a flu pandemic, which might sound quite resonant to us today. Many, many children lived in serious poverty and in slums. And we were in the era pre-penicillin, and therefore many more children and parents died young. We had many more orphans. Most significantly, perhaps, the children of unmarried mothers were subject to considerable stigma around. illegitimacy. And the work of Corum as the founding hospital was really continuing very much

unchanged since its origins in the 18th century. So with that, that kind of, I suppose, somewhat grim background Harriet that Carol has outlined, what was the catalyst that made this act be passed? It wasn't a new idea. The major voluntary societies, not including Corum, but some of the other societies such as Bernardo's and the Children's Society had been pressing for adoption legislation for about 35 years. And in fact, there were nine bills that went to Parliament and failed before the 1926 Act was actually passed. So you have this, you have pressure from the voluntary agencies

to introduce adoption to prevent parents from reclaiming children who had been safely placed with foster carers for a while. And then you also have the catalyst of the First World War relaxation of social mores or sorts of things, which makes adoption much more visible because people have been placing children with others for centuries. That's what I was wondering. That was the system. It was an informal fostering system as opposed to something that was legal. But, you know, Carol, you have – we talk about children, obviously, when it comes to –

adoption. But you've said it's really a story about women. Why? Well, think about being a young woman who is pregnant outside marriage through most of the period since the 18th, 19th and into the 20th century. You would be in poverty unless your own family would support you, which all too often families did not or could not, often because of religious or other stigma. then you would be alone without any means of support. So child abandonment was quite frequent, but also women would make this extraordinary choice in the interest of the love of their child

to hand their child over to the Foundling Hospital, for example, so that they might have literally the opportunity and chance of life. And I don't think any of us would think that the workhouse was a charitable support. It's interesting and I know Harriet in 1939 instead there was the adoption of children regulation act to stop the abuse or exploitation of children but as I was thinking about this

and of course we've covered the story so many times on women's hour the story of forced adoptions that are really seen as abuse. It's very interesting that isn't it? They're now seen as abuse I'm not so sure they were seen as abusive at the time. In fact, I'm of the generation of women who would have placed children for adoption had we got pregnant when we're 19 and 20 and been abandoned by the father.

And there were very few other options, and it was accepted practice, I think, is something that we don't really think about nowadays. Yes. They didn't do it willingly, though. And there is a lot of research that was undertaken at the time. the people who had to monitor consent of women said that they were very concerned because they didn't think,

although they gave consent, they didn't think it was freely given. They thought they were forced into it. Which we have seen, of course, many times and stories really up until the 90s from Ireland, and other stories that become visible in the public. When, Carol, and why did the welfare of children and really become an issue or seen as something that should be addressed in British society, would you say?

Well, I think that it was, it developed almost by stealth. And I think that it was partly as a result of the mass experience of evacuation during the Second World War and the changes that were occurring in the wider frame of the development of the welfare state. So that was important because it was not until 1989 that we saw, the Children Act and also the passing of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which the UK actually played a key part in driving. So I think that it was a combination of elements, but we then really saw also a significant change in the circumstance for women and children with the development of contraception and therefore much greater level of choice for women.

Soie, let us bring you in here. Welcome. adopted by white British parents in the year 2000 from Cambodia but grew up in Singapore. How did your experience influence you to set up in between lines your group? Yes, so by virtue of mine and my parents' background, I attended an international school in Singapore and we were taught about the term third culture kids. And it's quite interesting because it considers your difference to your parents and how that impacts you. And I think that's very transferable to adoption.

and obviously I was adopted going through that experience. And it could be as simple as my parents went to a British school and now I'm at an international school. What are the differences and how does that impact my childhood growing up? And obviously it's very different if you're also a different race to your parents. How does that impact how people look at you? Not only in that generation, but also because there are different attitudes to race, culture in a different country.

And so I think that realization and that background knowledge that I had made me want to share my knowledge with other people, especially adoptees, who might not have necessarily the language or the words to put into place why they might feel so different to their parents or different to their peers around them. And you were part, I understand, off a community, of adopted children growing up. So I suppose that perhaps gave a sense of place as well for you. Yes, exactly. So the community that I was surrounded by were people who looked similar to us in terms of family. So they were potentially white parents with children who were from a similar or same area to me. And so the ability to look at people around me and think this is normal. I never had that doubt in myself that I shouldn't tell people I'm adopted because it was normal and it was accepted. And from my work that I've done with other adoptees, I know that's not always the case

and I feel very fortunate for that. What do you think could change? Because we're kind of looking at this massive span of the past hundred years and seeing kind of particularly Harry, telling us there, you know, the difference, the changes that there have been towards attitudes when it comes to adoption. But you're in the centre of adopted children. What do you think could happen to make it a more inclusive perhaps or a smoother or more transparent process for those who are adopted? Yes, so I think a lot of what is lacking currently is the choice to be able to make safe choices. Do you want to see your birth

parents, where do you want to go to learn more about yourself? And I think just raising awareness about adoption in general, because I think when I came to the UK for university, a lot of people had never met an adopted person before when I was there first. Really? And so I think in the media, there's either a very negative or very positive look at adoption. I think like all childhoods, there's going to be a mix of things. I think acknowledging that mix and those, that kind of dissonance between the different states is very important to kind of raising awareness in general. But that issue of contacting birth parents, of course, changes so much as we talk about spanning history. Now, with a digital revolution that there is, it's a totally different landscape.

Yes, no, definitely. So some of the workshops I've done, especially with younger children, it is, you know, their birth parents have contacted them by social media. And it might not necessarily be through the safe and correct channels, which can be quite daunting. And as I have discussed before, sometimes children get in contact and then they regret it because it wasn't quite what they expected. And sometimes they don't regret it. But being able to make that choice safely, I think is what's really important. I want to turn also to you, Carol. I mentioned that you're with Coram, which is the longest serving children's charity in the UK,

also acts as an adoption agency. There are new practices that are brought in. and Zoe's telling us, of course, about, I suppose, an offshoot of modern day living that people can contact others very quickly. But there's adoption activity days, for example, that people might not be aware of. Yes, indeed. I mean, first of all, adoption today is very different from that historical circumstance. It's at a very considerably lower level.

And it is a service for children who have been taken into care for their own protection. So this is a fundamentally different landscape. It's also much more characterized by openness of information. There isn't the anonymity and there is support for life story work. But still, today, we have now twice as many children waiting for adoption as we have available adopters. So this is a critical moment for us to reflect. And some of the changes in practice that Coram has been involved in, having never been part of the relinquishment movement in that sense because of being the first.

hospital is to ensure that children who are very young, who need stable early permanence and placement can get that, that children can be matched with adopters no matter where they live so that we are able to maximise the opportunities. And specifically, and a key focus for us at the moment, is on sibling contact. So children who end up in different types of placements who desperately want to understand and share time. with their siblings who may be elsewhere. So this is a very developmental moment in adoption. But you have said that adoption isn't for everyone.

Why is it important for you to underline that? Well, firstly, because the children who are adopted today have had the very toughest start in life. Love is an essential part of the support to them, along with stability and security. And adoption, therefore, has a key part to play in the future. And it may be you who could be an adopter to a child waiting. But you can expect to and look forward to needing support for the child to address their needs through their lifetime.

And that is our duty. Is there enough support there? There is not enough support of sufficient consistency and continuity, whether you are an adult adopted in the past or a child today. And so this is one of the reasons why Corum has convened this discussion at this time. time. We should say, how shall we as a society respond? We do have a statement from the Department for Education. They say we're investing 50 million pounds into the adoption and special guardianship support fund to provide support for adopted children with complex needs and also have invested

significantly in adoption England for 2025 to 26 to improve adoption services. More widely, we're transforming the children's social care system through our children's well-being and schools Bill to give children and families earlier and better support. And we will continue to look closely at what further support adoptive families need to thrive. The second time that word has come up this morning on the program. How do you see it, Harriet, where there is more help needed? Well, I think as Carol says, we need to acknowledge that the children who are being placed for adoption now are very different from those babies. who were relinquished in the 1960s and 70s.

Children adopted now are children by and large, not all, but mostly they're children who have come into care in response to evidence of abuse and neglect and who cannot safely return home to their birth families. So for those children, the choice is to spend the rest of their childhood in care or to be placed with an adoptive family. but the experience of early childhood adversity and abuse and neglect doesn't go away if you reach a safe and loving home, that helps, of course. But the consequences of abuse and neglect are longstanding and they need support continually, continual support, and it doesn't matter where they are, whether they're placed in an adoptive home, whether they're placed in a foster home, whether they stay with their birth families.

we need to acknowledge that abuse has long-term consequences and it needs to be addressed and supported. Currently evolving situation, but it is 100 years since the adoption of the Children's Act and 1926, the first time that legalised the process. I do want to thank my guests that are here with me, Dame Carol Homden, Professor Harriet Ward and Zoe Lambert. And I do want to say,

if you've been affected by anything you've heard on the programme this morning, you can go to the BBC Actionline page where you can find links to support organisations. Thanks for your messages that have been coming in this morning as we talked about screen time. As a mother of a two and a half year old, I feel the guidance of no screen time before two is unrealistic, unhelpful and sets parents, in particular mothers, up for failure.

We should of course be thoughtful about screen time, what they watch and how they watch it, but let new child watch a short cartoon to give parents time to breathe, regulate and be more present for their child is arguably more beneficial than a frazzled, burnt out and overstimulated mum. Here's another.

I'm from a generation who was put in front of a TV every day instead of being a childminder. My addiction to screens empowered me to ban screen time for my child when she was born and she was at the hospital, for one and a half years with a condition. No screen time ever. Kids need to be engaged with doing laundry,

Being bored is fine too, not distracted. So says Maggie 844-844 if you'd like to get in touch to respond. Perhaps to some of our listeners that are getting in touch this morning. Thanks for all your messages. Now to some music. I am joined by the Ayub sisters, a duo consisting of the Scottish Egyptian siblings, Sarah and Laura Ayub. They play cello and violin, respectively.

They came to public attention when their instrumental cover of Uptown funk, was discovered by the record producer Mark Ronson. I believe they just stuck up the video, but he happened to find it. Their debut album was recorded in Abbey Road Studios with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. Their second album, Arabesque, was released independently. It went to number one in the iTunes charts. And they have played at venues. Let's do a rundown.

Royal Albert Hall, Cairo Opera House, Glastonbury, BBC proms, and they perform for King Charles. Now they're about to undertake a UK tour to celebrate their 10th anniversary. And their Arabic symphony will be premiered in a homecoming concert in Glasgow on the 23rd of January. That is going to be fun. Sarah, Laura, you're both very welcome. Going home to Glasgow, that's going to be great. It's going to be really special. We grew up in Glasgow.

We were educated in Glasgow and to go back there and perform with a symphony orchestra that we used to just listen to and think they sound amazing and to premiere our symphony with them. It's going to be incredible. That's amazing, Sarah. Laura, how do you incorporate your Scottish upbringing with your Egyptian heritage into your music? Well, I mean, we're very proud to be Egyptian and we've been listening to Arabic music since we were very young. Our parents did a very good job of kind of introducing us to different kinds of music. But obviously, being born and raised in Glasgow, you are surrounded by Scottish traditional music.

And, of course, we were educated in a very meticulous Western classical. way. So we had both inspirations growing up and I think what we're doing now is very much a combination of our Western classical training and kind of British education but as well our Arabic love

and heritage. I was reading about your mum and I think she brought you to a concert. Who was it that was humming on the way home even though there were only a year and a half? Oh, the Messiah. I forget who it was. You, yeah, yeah. I think you were asleep. I think you were asleep. in the car seat.

Like you weren't even allowed in, but my mom was like, she's sleeping. So I think it was me that was singing the Messiah. Yeah, but even though you were only a tot. And the lyrics were you, yeah, yeah. I believe, I've been told. I love these family stories. And who was it then that was on their mother's lap?

And your mom was going to get piano lessons, but instead the child, that was also you. And then Lotto went on my lap and was like, I can do it better than both of you. So, fine reaction. I love that. Shout out to your mum and dad that were kind of immersing you

in the music at that time. Also, you were championed by Mark Ronson, who many will know. And that started out with a record deal, then dropped by your label, which I'm sure was no fun, but you have decided to then rebuild your career independently.

How have you found that, Laura, that kind of managing? Because obviously you love the music, but then you also got to handle the business side of it. Yeah, I think we definitely want to rise to the challenge and rise to the occasion and we felt like we were not done yet. We have so much more that we wanted to say. So we took it upon ourselves to start self-releasing, self-promoting, build up our YouTube channel and learn from the process that the record companies do.

They have an artist, they have A&R, they have marketing, they have radio promo and all of these things that take to build someone's career. We try to tackle each of those subjects one for one. and really have a go at it on our own. We've been doing that for seven years now. Seems to be gone fine. We're very lucky to have each other. We split the workloads, and it's much easier when you have a partner in crime.

Yes, at a sister to boot. Now, I was looking last night at your video for a song you're going to play for a Cine Moment. El Helwadi. Oh, very good. It's a very good pronunciation. And it means the sweet one, the beautiful one. Absolutely.

Beautiful. Helwa is beautiful. So it's like a female article El Helwa Day beautiful woman. And what would you say is beautiful with that word? Like what are you describing, Sarah? So in this piece, particularly we're describing a beautiful sunset, the sound of the cockerel in the background and the smell of freshly baked bread. And it's kind of that depiction of early morning life.

Can we talk about, I'm going to let you go and play because that's what you came here to do and it's amazing because you were playing when I came into the studio this morning. The video that you made for that is so dramatic. How would we describe it, both of you in ball gowns

on the side of the earth? I'd describe it as a Hollywood blockbuster because there was no expense spared. We had drones, we had ball gowns that were on loan. We were in a four by four that took us into the Western Desert off the beaten track, sorry. And yes, we had, we had a narrative and a mood board.

And where were you? Because you have this beautiful dramatic landscape that is a desert landscape. And then you go into a city or a town meeting people who are just delighted to see you. Where was that? So the beautiful sandcape and the river was in Elfayum, which is the western desert, just west of Cairo. and the hustle and bustle was downtown Cairo town. Oh, that's downtown Cairo. Yeah, everybody delighted to see you.

I better let you get over to your instruments. And I'm going to let people know that Sarah is on cello. We have Laura on violin, El Helwadi, from their album, Arabesque, which is their new album, which they're also going to be performing, as I mentioned, in Glasgow. That's going to be on, they start the tour on Sunday, the 80s. of January, but then they will be going to Glasgow for their homecoming concert on the 23rd of January. Right, I will stop talking and I will let these ladies take over. Come back over to me.

That is Sarah and Laura Al-Aub, who are playing El Helwadi, which is the sweet one or the beautiful one. Incredibly joyful. We were brought to Tasmania and now we've been brought to Egypt with my guests. I loved watching you play. I love listening to it, such gorgeous, deep sound. Also, I kind of used that word joyful because it's very uplifting.

And I'm thinking about his sisters. How does it all work? Sarah, you glanced at Laura a couple of times, but not really. You just seem to be able to pick up on each other's cues without even looking at each other, Laura. Yeah, I think that's part of why this works so well is that we're able to communicate

without having to really say anything. One single twitch of an eyebrow shows me that exactly what's happening. We just know each other so well. As siblings we've grown up together and having that full trust and reassurance on stage that you're in safe hands is really special and it means a lot to us to have that.

I mean, you look like you're having fun. Yes. We have a lot of people. fun. Sometimes we look at each other and we're like, is this the life we lead? Like, what bizarre world this is, the music world and getting to do it together. And it has its up and downs.

Don't get me wrong. I'm thinking artistic differences. Who gets, who's the older? I am. Do you get final say? Not necessarily. Definitely not. I actually have to run it past her. Well, I know you have the tour that is about to take place.

I just want to also make mention before I let you go that you do work with the Benedetti Foundation. Wherever you travel, I read, you make a point of contacting the local primary school to try and arrange a music workshop. Yes, we do. We try and give back to the younger generation because we were very fortunate to have really inspiring teachers when we were going up. So when we're on tour, we try and visit local schools when and if we can.

Well, I do want to let people know that the Arabic Symphony will be premiered in a homecoming concert with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra in Glasgow. on the 23rd of January from that taster that we got, that sweet taster, that beautiful taster. I know it's going to be a cracking night. Thanks so much to both of you for coming into us. Thank you. Some of your messages that were coming in, let me see, can I get one in? I encourage my three-year-old to watch television and always have. I think it fires her imagination and introduces her to interesting words that she probably wouldn't come up in books I read to her or our conversations. She also enjoys acting out scenarios.

She sees on TV with family and friends. Now, tomorrow I'll be joined by Mia McKenna Bruce, who is the star of the new Agatha Christie adaptation. Join me then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Shari Val and I've been investigating fraud for decades. Now I'm shining light on the secret techniques criminals use to steal your money.

With insight from guest experts and the real people, involved in these scams so you can see the fraudsters coming before it's too late. That's the new series of scam secrets. Listen now on BBC Sounds.