Woman's Hour - Young women and poverty, Below the Belt, British Gymnastics, Rosie Kinchen, Grenfell Tower anniversary

Episode Date: June 13, 2022

New research from the Young Women’s Trust paints a bleak picture for many young women as they come out of the pandemic and into the cost of living crisis, with young mums experiencing particular disadvantages. We hear from young mums Charlotte and Jyndi, and speak to Claire Reindorp CEO of the Young Woman’s Trust.Rosie Kinchen found herself deeply depressed after the birth of her second child. After rescuing an ailing houseplant she started dragging herself out of the house to look at plants in supermarkets and garden centres. The Ballast Seed is her memoir.Nearly two years ago in July 2020 a significant number of gymnasts, and parents of gymnasts, made allegations about mistreatment within the sport of gymnastics to British Gymnastics. Eloise Jotischky, a former elite acrobatic gymnast and now 19, has become the first to win a civil case against them for the abuse she experienced in the sport. British Gymnastics has admitted full liability and reached a settlement. BBC Sports correspondent, Natalie Pirks joins me now.A new film, Below the Belt, directed by Shannon Cohn features four women with endometriosis. Shannon who previously directed Endo What joins Emma.One of the UK's worst modern disasters, it will soon be the fifth anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire. Seventy-two people died. The artist Tuesday Greenidge is sewing a quilt the size of Grenfell Tower to "symbolise justice" for survivors and the people affected. The singer Sophie DeMasi was involved in a song called West Side Story which came out this year in honour of the anniversary. They join Emma to discuss how art can help in the aftermath of such tragedy.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. I hope you managed a decent enough weekend and perhaps a little sunshine. Well, talking of such things, sunshine matters a great deal to one of my guests today who managed to heal herself through plants and learning to garden. The journalist Rosie Kinchin's first book is a memoir about motherhood, depression and plants. I'm also going to be talking to two women on the programme

who have created a song and quilt respectively to mark the Grenfell Tower disaster and honour those who lost their lives and the survivors just ahead of the five-year anniversary tomorrow. Which gives me the opportunity to ask you this. What have you created or perhaps learned or taught yourself out of pain? Perhaps it was something that you were thinking of doing already. Maybe it was something you had never considered. What had happened to you to make you perhaps create something in the first place how did it help you heal text me here at woman's hour on 84844 text will be charged your standard

message rate or on social media it's at bbc woman's hour or email me through the woman's hour website also on today's program a powerful new film about endometriosis comes to the uk aptly called Below the Belt, and why this is going to be a major week in British gymnastics, but not for the reasons you might think. All that to come. But first, new research published today from the Young Women's Trust paints a bleak picture for many young women as they come out of the pandemic and into the cost of living crisis, with young mums experiencing particular disadvantage. The survey of over 4,000 young women aged 18 to 30

found that over half of young women are filled with dread when they think about their household finances. Perhaps the most startling findings from the poll also suggest that a third of young mothers say they currently have to go hungry in order to feed their children. This research comes out on the day that the government has unveiled a food strategy white paper, the Prime Minister has been out and about talking about this this morning, in which the demand to expand free school meals to all children in universal credit households have been shelved and will instead be kept under review. That is despite the Food Czar's, Henry Dimbleby's, advice to the government.

Let's start this discussion by listening to this from 25-year-old Jindi from Northamptonshire. Jindi is the single mum of a two-year-old daughter called Hattie and she works as a part-time care worker. I've gone without eating. Like I say, she comes first. She eats. She's priority. I'm not priority. As long as she eats, I ain't bothered. And I'll have like a packet of crisps. I feel like an awful mum. I feel awful. I always say I'm a crap mum. Always say it because that's how I feel. Although yes, I'll get her clothes when she needs them and she will eat and that, but I feel like I'm failing as a mum because I'm not as good as the other mums, what you see on social media. It makes me feel like I'm a failing parent. Not just her, but myself, because I was never like that. I'd never miss meals, you know, I'd never

do anything like that but when you have a baby and you're struggling, you do what you have to do. There's obviously worse people off than I am, there always will be, but it is hard when you see on social medias people having a nice dinner and I don't have that. Sometimes I just have some rice, just something just to, you know, eat because you need to eat, I feel like I'm scrounging and I don't want to be like that. But there's nothing I can do. I work. It's not like I don't work. 25-year-old Jim Do, the single mum of a two-year-old daughter. Well, this poll has also suggested that almost a quarter of young women

agree that sometimes they have to choose between food and heating. This rises to over half for single mums, and the next voice you're going to hear is Charlotte, who's 25 years old and from East Anglia. Charlotte is a single mum to four-year-old daughter Elsie and works part-time in a co-op. She says she's in so much debt she's had to choose eating over heating. I know that that debt will get larger. I mean, I to be honest when it gets really cold I think I will just crack and I will have to put the heating on um because last year for instance like we had to

get out the bath and like I could see Elsie's breath and it really made me upset to think that she was that cold and like her lips being blue you know I've obviously cried about it before obviously not around Elsie but then I also think there's not really anything I can cut back on that would be a significant enough money, if that makes sense, to be able to still put the heating on. Like I said, the food thing, I could literally not eat for the whole month and I still wouldn't be able to heat the house. Joining me now is Claire Ryndall, the chief executive of the Young Women's Trust behind this research. Claire, I think what's so striking about Jindy and Charlotte, of course, beyond the distressing details there of what choices they're having to make, is that both of them are in work. Absolutely. I mean, this is one of the most striking findings is the extent of in-work poverty today. Work isn't paying for young women. And we do need increases in the minimum wage

and cuts in costs like childcare to make things stack up. The numbers just aren't stacking up for young women. But one of the really big picture here is that young women as a whole are much more likely to be struggling because on average they take home one fifth of the income of young men. That's a 22 percent gap in their income. And that gap, as you're talking about it, because your focus is young women. That's right.

Is that because many of them that you're talking to or talking about have children or is that otherwise? This is the whole group from 18 to 30 that 22% gap and it's coming about partly because young women are doing more unpaid work, cooking, cleaning, ferrying their siblings around and looking after children when they don't have affordable child care but it's also because more young women are in part-time work and trapped in low wages. Why would that be? Do we know why that's the case that more young women are in part-time work and trapped in low wages. Do we know why that's the case, that more young women would be in part-time? Well, partly because of the amount of unpaid work that they're having to do. So those two are linked.

Those two things are linked. And they're facing huge discrimination in the workplace. I mean, we've done a survey with HR decision makers, and 30% said that they knew that young women had been discriminated against in the workplace in the past year. And I think really shockingly, one in five thought that men were more suitable for senior management positions than women. So young women are facing problems at both sides of the ladder trying to get on to the ladder, but also young women further up are also not getting the promotion that they deserve. And young women are telling us what that feels like. You know, it's leaving them stuck without choices, spending all their energies on surviving rather than really getting

a good start to their lives. There have been some announcements from the government, some discounts, for instance, an energy bill discount for £400 for all households this autumn, low income households receiving an extra payment of £650. Of course, it'll be slightly different depending on where you are and what certain benefits you may or may not receive. But what do you make of what has been announced so far in light of these findings? Well, young women are telling us that they're relieved that they've had some help. But as you heard from Charlotte and from our survey, one third of young women are already in debt and that rises to 50 percent of young mums. So some of these payments are going to go on relieving that debt and not actually enabling young women to have more money for essentials. But it's a start. There was a piece in the papers today some of the papers talking about

a perception of the young so not just women men and women uh talking about a perception of them not living within their means and there being a concern about what money is spent on i don't know if you saw that but you'll be familiar with the concern and whether that's you know i don't know things being spent on net subscriptions, whatever it is. Are these some of the concerns you've heard and what do you make of that? Well, it doesn't add up with the picture that young women tell us. I mean, they are choosing between heating and eating, not Netflix and a nice supper's out, as your packages just showed, Jindi and Charlotte.

Young women are kind of going right to the wire with their finances. And this is really, this is what's meaning, feeling that they're stuck in the mud, really, that they can't get out of it. And a third of the young women we spoke to are wanting to work more hours.

They're not wanting part-time work. They're wanting to earn their way out of a cost of living crisis they want decent wages they want to be able to use their talents in the workplace does does your data does your information show you how the pandemic has impacted this in in terms of what things were like before and also the the cost of of goods going up and living prices absolutely well more young women are telling us that they are struggling. As you said at the top of your piece, 50% are now filled with dread.

That's much higher than any of the surveys we've done before. But this bigger picture about the income gap between young men and young women has been going on for years. And you may have listeners who've got children in their 30s and they know their daughters earning less than their sons or there may be women listening in their 60s or 70s who are struggling on a pension that's smaller than it should be. Well that kind of financial inequality that they're experiencing starts straight away right at the beginning of young women's working lives and it's kind of obviously trapping many women in poverty. It's trapping some men in breadwinning roles. And I think it's leaving a kind of gaping hole in the economy where the

talents of young women should be. If you're a young mum in particular listening because of the specific details around that and the two voices we've heard this morning, and you're struggling, what do you say in terms of advice or immediate practical help well firstly if you're in financial crisis i'd suggest you go to your local citizens advice bureau but if you're a young woman listening and you want to find work you want to get ahead in your job build your confidence get in touch with us at youngwomenstrust.org because we support you with your CV, your interview, and we provide free professional coaching to thousands of young women a year. So it's youngwomenstrust.org. Well, we also just have a statement here to share, which we've covered a bit of, but the Department for Work and Pensions spokesperson for that government department says, over the last decade, our work has seen the gender pay gap fall considerably, record highs of women in employment and a strong growth in the number of women in full time work.

To drive forward this progress, we've recently announced a groundbreaking pay transparency pilot, £37 billion worth of support for working parents this year alone and £3.5 million in each of the last three years to deliver free childcare, new returners to work programmes and a task force on women-led high growth enterprises. Well, actually, we talked last week, I believe it was on my programme on Thursday, about some of the issues with regards to childcare. And I know we're going to return to that with some of the proposals. But thank you very much to Claire Reindorff, Chief Executive of the Young Women's Trust. Thank you.

Now, I mentioned right at the beginning of the programme, you've already started to get in touch about the healing powers of creating, whatever that might mean to you. And the restorative power of nature and seeing things grow is well known. But a new book specifically charts the journey from the despair of antenatal and postnatal depression to a new way of seeing the world through horticultural therapy. The journalist Rosie Kinchin is the author, and it's called The Ballast Seed,

a story of motherhood, of growing up and growing plants. Rosie, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me. I thought we'd start with what is a ballast seed? So in the 18th and 19th century, trade ships would carry goods around the world and on the way back they would pick up ballast in order to keep themselves afloat and keep the boat balanced. And that ballast would be rubble or sand or grit, it could be anything really, but often tucked away inside it were seeds. And so when they reached the port that they were coming into, they would quite often dump the

ballast on the way in so they could avoid paying taxes and that the seeds would germinate there or sometimes they would you know some some would never because the conditions weren't right but often they would germinate and it became a sort of hot spot for botanists to go and have a look at what was growing. A tax avoiding dump yeah okay that's I mean I wasn't familiar with it that in itself is a pretty good example of how educational this book is from the perspective of all you have learned on your journeys with this. But why call the book that? Because I think it became, I could see the parallels between that and the experience of a surprise pregnancy, which is what happened. So take us to that because this is your second child and you weren't expecting to be pregnant. Yeah, that's right. So I discovered, I realised I was pregnant when my first son was just nearing a year

and I was already three months pregnant. So it was a shock and it was a shock at a point when I was probably feeling a little bit unprepared for another life-changing event. And so it sort of set in course a series of events that I couldn't establish whether the way I was feeling initially was to do with, you know, rational concerns about how I was going to get my life going again with two children in childcare and trying to get my career back on track after a big absence.

Sort of some of the themes we were actually just discussing. Exactly, yeah. And I was, I should say that I was in a very privileged position because I was able to keep my older son in childcare for that period of time when I was off and I was very unwell. And I was able to focus on him and on myself and get better, which, you know, I'm very lucky to have been able to do that because I know a lot of people couldn't. But in terms of distinguishing whether something was a rational response or not quite soon it became clear to you and perhaps I don't know some of those around you that while you were pregnant with your second you weren't doing okay it would be safe to say. Yeah it would be safe to say that I wasn't I basically it became um it wasn't rational

it wasn't rational and it was quite extreme I was very tearful a lot of the time I found I was finding it incredibly hard to get through the day and I was quite scared really I was scared I remember googling you know impact of stress on a fetus you know because I was so I was in such a state and I didn't know whether I was damaging the baby and then that would be that was causing me to kind of an additional level of stress I was I was very anxious and and worried all the time and they were big big the the yeah they weren't necessarily rational worries some of them were and they didn't have easy solutions so there were I was going around in circles a lot how did plants come into this and when did they come into this because you obviously had to get through that pregnancy. Yeah, so I did get through the pregnancy and I did. So I was in a queue for some NHS therapy and I was waiting.

There was nothing available. And the baby was born and I was waiting to see whether things would stabilise. And they didn't really stabilise. They sort of they changed a bit, but they didn't really stabilise. I was still feeling very overwhelmed and very worried about what I was going to do. And I had, I'd been curious about plants, I suppose, in that way that, you know, you are interested and yet completely clueless. And so I started to sort of, I gravitated towards green spaces. I think a lot of people with babies do that anyway, because you're just, you have nothing to do but to walk and walking. I see, you know, mothers pacing with babies.

I see them too. Yeah, I feel you. I almost nod in solidarity. Exactly. I know what's happening here. And then, you know, you also aren't going to hopefully be feeling any sort of shame in a big open space if they kick off.

People aren't watching you. You're not feeling terrified. You don't run away. And so I found that very helpful anyway. And then I started thinking, well, while I'm here, I'll just start to search for answers. So I downloaded apps and I started trying to find bits and bobs out. But eventually my pacing took me to a community garden, which isn't far from my home. And they were offering a horticultural therapy course. And I thought, God, I kind of weighed it out for ages I deliberated it felt like a weird thing to do if I'm honest it felt like wow this is not something that I would ever have considered doing a year ago

um but I but I I in the end I did go and I'm incredibly grateful that I did. The description is in in the book of some of the people you meet on that course because I mean you just to really paint your ignorance here, you didn't even know horticultural therapy was really a thing. And there's a lovely bit, I thought, you're very determined in the way you describe it when you go to the doctor and ask them to sign off when you go into it. Because, again, you know, as a journalist, you will have seen those stories.

Doctors recommending other sorts of activities to help people with their mind. Because I know you were also trying to pursue, and you did pursue, we should say, medical help. Yeah, so I took antidepressants as well, yeah. So that was happening, but this was something else on the side. And the way you described the individuals who'd all come together, I mean, there's no rhyme or reason for why any of those people were together.

No, not at all. We were a real eclectic mix. But it was a wonderful thing because, you know, there was women of all ages with nothing very much in common. Was it all women, actually? It was all women in my group. Yeah, it was. And so there were women, there was women in their 80s with dementia. There were women in their 50s, some of whom were helping with the dementia group and some of whom were there with their own concerns. Some had physical disabilities. But what I found very helpful was that what was wrong

was not the focus of why we were there. The garden was why we were there. But it was a friendly group without artifice. Everyone was there because there was something wrong and that allowed people to just speak quite freely. And so what happens in that kind of environment is first firstly people are kind and that was something I needed at the time but secondly people laugh it's life is funny when when you can strip back

all of the need to sort of hold it together at once and life is sometimes that it's funniest when it's going wrong and I'm incredibly grateful to those people because it was the garden healed me, but the people healed me as well. And I made some, you know, I met, I managed to find life interesting and engaging and fun again. And sort of a bit like a romance, you sound almost lustful to get to the garden at times, you know, to get out of the house. Everyone, if they have been through and if they have a partner, they have been through having a child and they're on them on maternity they will remember I mean I think I practically threw our son one day at five or six o'clock whenever my husband walked through the door I mean I drop kicked him I think across the door to go out alone just for half an hour and walk and for you that in the evenings that would take take the form of going to the

garden yeah so I then started doing an evening course and to get a qualification. And I was doing it at this point with no idea what I was doing it for. Like, why did I want this qualification? But I knew I really enjoyed learning. There was something that I found very helpful about being at a point in life when you're supposed to have answers and everything was going wrong and putting myself in a position of learning,

of ignorance and building up from there. It was a very addictive feeling and it was really enjoyable. And I did, I felt myself relaxed the moment I got to the garden. Well, there's incredible detail in there. I feel I've learned an awful lot from it. But also you have as a bit of a guide Marianne North, the 19th century botanical artist. Safe to say you've got quite a choppy relationship. You are good with her and then you're not good with her because some of her adventures are amazing and some of her attitudes are not.

Yeah, I think that's true. As you put it. Yeah, I mean, so she was an unusual woman and I was quite fascinated by her. I liked her. Initially, I think, again, she made me smile at a time when not very much was making me smile. And that was because she was quite grumpy. And she was, you know, she was, she was not happy with what Victorian society expected a woman to be. And she was determined to go and do something that was that suited her. But yeah, she was also, she also had some really difficult views of the world. And even for the Victorian era, Marianne's racism, I think, goes beyond what was the norm at the time. And so there were, yeah, it was a bit of a choppy relationship. I think that that overall was, I was interested to see,

to experience her in her being honest and her honesty and I and I think I learned a lot about the time through her I think she was a good guide which it's a whole other conversation when you find out something about somebody you respect from the past and it's not quite you know what you wanted it to be as well as still admiring perhaps the original reason exactly it makes her more interesting, I think very, I'm well. And, and, you know, the, the, it, a lot of what I think, um, I took from that experience was that sometimes it's a lot of it come down, comes down to luck and chance. And I don't know why it worked better when I went back off to the second one, maybe I was in a better place, maybe I felt more resilient. Um, but it did work and I, I clicked back with the

job and, um, it has been easier, um, this time around. And, you know, I think, but I think that I was unprepared for the bumps that followed that first one. And I wanted, and I saw a lot of my friends going through similar bumps and I wanted to put something out there that kind of reflected some of the turbulence that exists around that adjustment period of life before children and life after children and acknowledge the fact that that journey is rarely a smooth one. Yes, because I was going to ask why you've put it out there.

You've answered that, but were you a bit worried about pushing it out there in any way? Because, of course, family read it, your children will read it when they're older. How do you feel about all of that? Yeah, I was worried about it, but I think shame is such a damaging feeling. It's such a damaging emotion. And nothing is as bad as you think it is when it's locked up in your own head. So in general, it's better to be able to talk and to be able to share experiences. And people have responded wonderfully. And I think the kindest thing, the best compliment I can have is that when you share your experience experience and however raw and honest it is, that people share theirs back again.

And I've had that already. And it's really lovely. The world is a better place when people tell the truth. Yes. Well, I should also say that there's a very moving epilogue to the book about your mum who sadly died in February. I'm sorry about that. Thanks. I know that, you know, you wanted to obviously,

everything's decided with careful precision in a book like this, especially when it's a memoir. Tell us about the inclusion of that and what you wanted to say. Yeah, so I had to sort of claw the book back because it was just going to press and it was just going to be published. And when mum died, I felt that it had to acknowledge what had happened because it just wouldn't be right not to. And it's been an interesting process.

I never thought that I would be talking about the book without my mother in the world. But again, it's been, you know, and a lot of the themes now feel a bit different because, you know, it's in light of her not being here. But I do think that losing mum has reminded me of what an immense privilege it is to be in a position of being able to influence somebody's life the way that she influenced mine. And I'm very, very grateful for that. Rosie, thank you very much for talking to me and talking to all of us this morning the

book is called The Ballast Seed a story of motherhood of growing up and growing plants and I should say you've been responding this morning to to my question because we've we've got three women on this morning who've created in in light of pain and and also trying to make some sense of the world and what have you done is the question 84844 is the number I offered for you to get in touch. And you've been doing so on email and social media as well. Tamsin says, I started writing poetry after the death of my mother. It's been so cathartic and positive seeing others enjoy my poems. Annette says, I learned to draw with the help of a wonderful book called Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards. I lost my father, which hit me

really profoundly, but had no idea that this would help, and I was much less awful at it than I thought. I spent an afternoon sitting on a sunny hillside drawing a ruined abbey, and it calmed me in the deepest level in a way that I cannot explain. This was 20 years ago, and I've not done it since, but I know it's always there as an option.

Claire's email to say, after finishing with A Boyfriend, I bought Stephen Fry's book, The Ode Less Travelled, and I worked my way through it, learning to write poetry, very therapeutic. Another, I began painting when, as a poet, I ran out of words. I'd just gone through a painful divorce and needed to express myself differently.

I found painting it out really helpful. To begin with, the pictures were quite dark, but I've continued painting and even taken some commissions. The paintings are abstract. Each tells a part of my story or a story I have been told and creating has been healing. No name on that one. And so they continue.

I've never created anything in my life. Let me read just one more if I can. But on one day, a couple of years ago, I bought some sequins and felt and I made several brooches a few bags and purses everyone who sees them tells me they're lovely or amazing I find the colours of the sequins and beads bring a sense of healing and peace to me and my sometimes troubled stress state of mind that's Laura who's listening in Somerset good morning to you thank you for those do keep them coming in but I'm also going to ask for your help with

something else, with some of your experiences, if you'd be so kind, because there are early signs of a possible increase in the number of people testing positive for COVID in England and Northern Ireland. That's officials from the Office for National Statistics. That's what they're saying. And with your help, I wanted to hear about how COVID is playing out in your life at the moment, if it is. This isn't to raise unnecessary alarm, I assure you, but now it's more to hear how it's impacting your life, if at all, and continuing to do so. There might be new cases, long COVID amongst you, or of course, some of you still needing to shield. I'm very mindful of that. Are you still taking precautions, Mask wearing and knocking elbows as opposed to the big hugs and kisses, the embraces? Or are you out there, full on

hugging, you know, not thinking about it at all, back to normal anyone you meet, everyone you meet, it doesn't matter, no social distancing where are you with it? How is Covid playing out in your life right now? Do contact us here at the programme here at Women's Hour. You can text 84844, social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through

the Women's Hour website. We'll look out for those, but please do get in touch. Now, nearly two years ago in July 2020, a significant number of gymnasts and parents of gymnasts made allegations about mistreatment within the sport of gymnastics to the British Gymnastics Board, if we could put it like that, the sport of gymnastics to the British Gymnastics Board, if we could put it like that, the organisation. Some of the concerns also alleged that they had failed the organisation, that is, to deal appropriately with complaints it had received. Eloise Jatiski, a former elite acrobatic gymnast, now aged 19, has become the first to win a civil case against British Gymnastics for the abuse she experienced in the sport.

British Gymnastics has admitted full liability and reached a settlement. Eloise has received a full apology from the governing body's chief executive. Her case is one of at least 40 due in court, all girls bar one male, and the findings of a review of British Gymnastics and the allegations that have been made, led by Anne White QC, is due to be published later this week. There have been 400 submissions to that review. I'm joined now by the BBC sports correspondent, Natalie Perks, who has spoken to Eloise and joins me now. Natalie, good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Could we start with the case of Eloise? I recognise this is bigger bigger but can you tell us about her first? Of course yeah I mean her story is individual but there's these kind of things I've been hearing now for two years so she she's now 19 but between the ages of 10 and 14 she was a member of the acro team the acrobatics team at Heathrow Gymnastics Club and from the age of 12 she was in the elite squad her coach was someone called andrew griffiths he's a acclaimed choreographer she was training 25 hours a week at the age of 12 including school of course and she says that basically she was left physically and mentally exhausted he allegedly subjected her to inappropriate weight management techniques um would always belittle her, body shame her. She weighed around 46 kilograms,

so what's that, about seven stone three in old money. And he had decided, she says, that she should weigh about five kilograms less, around 11 pounds, just shy of a stone less at 12 years old. So that sent her on this spiral, really, of calorie control, frequent weighing by him, body shaming and she would end up going into a really boiling hot bath just to try and lose a kilo here and a kilo there and this was between the age of 12 and 14 and it ended up where she had to just leave the sport because she just could not cope anymore. Here's a clip which starts with Eloise reading from her diary written when she was 14. Let's have a listen.

Currently, I have one word to describe how I'm feeling. Hungry. When I quit gym, I will look back at this and dieting will always be the worst part of gymnastics. I was told that I was too big and that I needed to lose weight. On a non-training day, I was eating around 827 calories and on a training day around just over 1,200. So, you know, physically I was absolutely exhausted. I tried to limit how much water I was drinking. I was scared every day to go to training.

Every day I'd wake up, I would just dread it. That's the voice of Eloise talking, who has won this case. BBC Sports correspondent Natalie Perks, who's taking us through it. What has been the long-term impact on Eloise? I think a lot. She's 19. She's about to go to Cambridge. So she's done fantastically well, given everything that happened to her.

But I think the overwhelming feeling she now feels is just sadness. She had to leave a sport that she absolutely loved prematurely because she couldn't go on anymore she got to breaking point with all of it and you know interestingly her piece ran on the night 10 o'clock news last night the piece I did with her and she's had so many texts since then from former friends former gymnasts all saying the same thing not about the same coach necessarily just about what they've gone through in the sport. And that's something I've heard time and time again in the last two years. And I mentioned about this review that Anne White QC is looking into allegations of mistreatment

within gymnastics. Due this week? Yeah, so we're expecting that at the end of this week. And that was around, as you said, 400 submissions. Anne white herself did 230 meetings 90 clubs were named 100 coaches were named so we're not just talking about one bad apple here although certain names do come up time and time again when i speak to people but we are talking about a culture that's existed since really the the late 80s when British gymnastics professionalized itself it sent coaches off to Russia and Romania where they were the countries doing really really well and they thought we'll have a bit of that and these coaches learned techniques from those particular camps

specifically around weight management although I've heard stories of people having to train on broken bones when their coaches knew they had broken bones and they just sent them out to train because there was this quest for medals and this quest for glory that was above anything else and essentially now you're trying to unpick a very toxic culture right from the bottom right to the very top so it's quite unique really. I mean and also for those who who are interested in this and even if they're not they may have followed there has have been similar promises of root and branch reform across the pond in America. There have been high profile

cases of abuse and very high profile gymnastics and those to do with gymnastics talking about this. Do you think this is this sort of moment for British gymnastics? Absolutely. This absolutely needs to be British gymnastics moment of reckoning. And I know that there are other sports in the country looking at what's happening in gymnastics, thinking we could be in similar trouble here. And I know that the gymnasts for change um the people involved with that who really want this review to change the sport they're hoping that essentially gymnastics will be the first domino to fall really and that other sports will follow suit um they're hoping that on Thursday hopefully when we hear from this white review they will say look we need to have

change in terms of an ombudsman someone we can go to with problems where they're not still involved with bridge gymnastics we need to have an athlete's register where parents can look on this coach's register sorry and say oh that coach has been suspended before that coach is now not even in the sport and shouldn't be in the sport anymore so what they really really want is that but what they want more than anything is for these coaches. And what other sports, sorry, are we talking about? You, of course, talk about gymnastics being perhaps the first domino. Yeah, I think there's lots of other sports that are looking at this.

We've seen allegations of safeguarding issues in sports like rowing, for example, and cycling, for example. They've been high profile cases and, of course, in football as well. But I think there will be other sports looking at what happens this week with gymnastics and realising that that will be their moment of reckoning too that every sport in this country really needs to stand up because Tanni Grey-Thompson back in 2017 looked at all of this and suggested there should be a sports ombudsman someone that's completely independent where people with safeguarding issues can go. That still hasn't been taken forward yet.

So the more that sports like gymnastics can do, this is a co-commissioned report between UK Sport and Sport England. They do want to get to the bottom of it. British gymnastics have promised extensive reform after this. But, you know, a lot of people don't trust British gymnastics and they really want to see what Anne White suggests. Yes. And of course, specifically, as we're talking on Women's Hour, as I mentioned, for instance, of these court cases, all of them concern girls as they were, bar one. So this is a sport, of course, very much associated with young women and particularly their well-being, which is what's being looked at. I'm sure we'll talk again. BBC Sports correspondent, thank you so much for taking us through that and for your report. Natalie Perks there.

I have to say, just before speaking to Natalie, I did say I'd like your help and you'd get in touch if you could with the programme with regards to COVID. And already, you know, regardless of what else we're talking about on this programme, so many messages have come in about if it's playing out in your life and how it is. And just to give you a flavour, if I can, very, very briefly, it's not playing out at all.

COVID is not an issue for me. British media slash BBC, capital letters, move on, exclamation point. And yet directly below that, a message here, I've just tested positive a week and a half before my due date. I'm triple vaxxed. This is the first time testing positive. I had definitely embraced the new normal, wasn't taking any precautions anymore, but had stocked up on tests while they were free. And another one here, I'm a 59 year old female NHS community nurse on day eight of COVID. First time I've caught it, it's absolutely floored me. GP prescribed ABX, which without seeing my excruciatingly, and supposedly I think I mean their, painful throat, I ended up calling them back as I was

struggling to swallow. They sent paramedics to assess. They were amazing at reassuring me and happy to keep me at home until I got, unless I got worse. I've never felt so ill and I wouldn't wish this on anyone. The advice here, please stay alert, says Sue, who's listening in Warwickshire. And so it continues.

I've never seen a message console light up as so fast with these. So do keep those messages coming in however you feel about this or however it's intersecting with your life. I should also say with regards to what we were just talking about, we have a statement from British Gymnastics. Of course, we'll

come back to that report due out later this week. British Gymnastics cannot comment specifically on this matter as it's the subject of a live legal claim. There is no place for abuse of any kind in gymnastics and every safeguarding complaint or concern that is made to British Gymnastics is thoroughly investigated by professional safeguarding officers and recruited a non-executive director for welfare and safeguarding and a new national welfare officer to provide better liaison

between British gymnastics and those raising complaints. We will be outlining the developments in these areas in much more detail when we have had the opportunity to study that imminent White report and to incorporate its recommendations fully into our comprehensive ongoing reform plan. Well, I very much hope we could have somebody on from British Gymnastics, the governing body, as and when that report has been digested and certainly published, we should say. More of that to come. But a new film that I mentioned about endometriosis, the debilitating chronic condition which affects one in ten women.

And just in case you don't know, which many and many people don't, I should say, is where tissue similar to the kind that lies inside the uterus grows outside of it, has just had its European premiere. Endometriosis hallmark is debilitating pain, although not every woman has that, and it can cause fertility complications. Again, not every woman with endometriosis has those issues. No one knows what causes it. No one has a cure. Well, Below the Belt, a documentary which highlights four people's stories

as they battle endometriosis, has been made by the director, Shannon Cohn, who also suffers with the disease. And this new film, which has just had its European premiere, lists also one Hillary Clinton as a producer, which I spotted on the credits. Shannon, good morning. Good morning. Why make this film? It's actually your second on the subject, but I know with this, you're trying to make a change. Absolutely. I mean, for all of the reasons you just laid out, I mean, I've heard it so many times, endometriosis described.

And each time that it's described, I'm like, wow, this is an insanity, right? Just to know that this disease is so prevalent, 200 million people worldwide and causes, you know, wreaks such havoc in people's lives. And then we have no answers. We don't really know what causes it. We don't know how to treat it. And most people go an average of eight to ten years before they even hear the word endometriosis you know with symptoms yes and i know you have had that experience and i too i was you were 29 i believe and and this is not the reason i just want to say while we're doing this uh this item today but i happen to have it as well um and i but this film is having an impact because um you know, I was, I think, 30, 31 see a woman in pain, just trying to breathe,

just trying to get through it. And weirdly, that felt quite revolutionary to see, you know, you don't have to have endometriosis. I know lots of people have other chronic issues, but just seeing somebody breathing and trying to get through something is very moving. Right. You know, I think describing pain is difficult for anyone, you know, like you go to the A&E or to the ER in the US and, you know, I don't, you have like the little smiley faces and saying, how, how in pain are you? It's such a weird situation. I'm like, well, what is that? It's all relative, right? So I think what's powerful about that moment is you're seeing pain without a word being said. You know that this person is in pain and that's really hard to communicate.

I mean, and pain is a political issue. You know, health is politics. And actually that comes across so, so much in your film, because although in the UK we have the NHS, actually when it comes to these sorts of conditions and the need to see specialists if they even know about it at all which again a point your film makes about how few obstetricians and gynaecologists could even perform the surgery that is said to help some women with this condition you actually also see the complication in America certainly of women having to clean out their savings accounts in one case of father having to remortgage his house for the second time. And he's certainly too old, if you like,

to be doing that with a lot of earning potential ahead of him, because there is no other way to finance trying to get through this. And is that why Hillary Clinton is a producer? Because you want politicians to sit up. Absolutely. I mean, there are tremendous financial hurdles to good care in every country. And with Secretary Clinton, she wanted to bring this discussion into the mainstream. It's very important to us that we have all politicians of all political spectrum involved

because it's not a political issue. We're trying to depoliticise the issue, actually. So that just to say this is a human issue, you know, it's not even a women's issue per se. It's a human issue. It affects women, yes, predominantly. But at the same time, it's a societal issue. Every person listening to this program is affected by endometriosis, whether they know it or not. They, they may not have it. I mean, there's a good chance they may, you know, but they, if they don't, then they absolutely love or know multiple people who have it. If they even know they've got it, of course, because I mean, I know, I know for you as well, on the personal side of this, you say it's helped your husband, who is also a filmmaker. I know you

were previously a lawyer, an attorney, as you would call it in America, but it's helped your husband, who is also a filmmaker. I know you were previously a lawyer, an attorney, as you would call it in America. But it's helped him get to know you a bit better with your disease and how you have it in your body and cope with it or try to cope with it. And I know also as parents of two daughters, it's made you think about how this may play out in your daughter's life because you tell me there are some studies for the very little that is known about this being passed on. Yes, there is an evidence seven times increased risk of endometriosis among mothers and daughters and sisters. So yes, absolutely.

When I, you know, I first had symptoms of endometriosis at 16, but it wasn't until after my second daughter was born. And I read this article about this seven times increased risk that I felt galvanized to do something. And it says something about human nature, I think for all of us is, you know, when we're suffering or threatened, we may not feel as compelled to do something tangible. But when someone that we love, whether it's our children or our parent or partner is threatened in a very real and dramatic way, then there's a fire lit, you know, under us like no other. And that definitely, you know, happened with me and my children. And I started asking, okay, this is an enormous problem for so many people around the world. What can, what can I do about it? What can we all do? And what can we do? I mean, you go somewhere in the film to talking a little bit about some

money that's been released. It was from an interesting department in the US. Which department was it? Well, it's from the Department of Defense. The Department of Defense is funding endometriosis research? They are. Is it seen as a matter of national security if women are walking around in pain? Well, the standard is that does the disease affect the U.S. Congress, the U.S. military or the general U.S. public? That's the standard. And actually, we got the idea to do this because the majority of breast cancer research in the 90s was actually started to be funded by the Department of Defense. So if you do a bit of research and digging, you start realizing that breast cancer research, ovarian cancer research

are funded to a great extent by the United States Department of Defense. I had no idea. I sort of wanted to pause the film at that point and just take an image of that to check I hadn't misread it. I mean, I should say and pay tribute to as many have, but Sir David Amess, the late Conservative MP here in the UK, who was killed. He was working cross party to try here on this side of the pond to raise awareness of endometriosis because a constituent had come to him and also make certain levels of progress. I mean, that is to be seen in terms of research levels and money and commitment. And we've done a lot on the programme and will continue to do so about the gender pain gap and some of the issues about women being believed. I just wanted to flag one more thing while you were here, Shannon,

which is one of the other most striking elements of this, and there will be others with other diseases who can relate to this of your film, showed the long term and other health impacts that taking pain medication can have. And not just pain medication, you know, just trying other things to lessen the impact of pain in the body. And also, you know, living in pain, what that can be doing to you over the years. So I just wondered, you know, not with fear mongering here, of course, because each person's going to have certain things that they're recommended to do. But I think that's a really important point. When there isn't a cure, what else can happen to you health wise,

almost as collateral damage for trying to live in your own body? Yeah, I mean, that's collateral damage of not having enough resources, you know, pointed at a disease that affects so many women historically, you know, because we have no real answers. So basically, we're, you know, many different medications are thrown at us in an attempt to fix us. And unfortunately, you know, they work to varying degrees, and almost all of them, you know, temporarily. So we're given, you know, everything from painkillers to hormonal medications, a full spectrum of those, and an attempt to fix us, to make us not be in pain, to make us not go back to the GP or to the gynecologist's office again. Or to the A&E. Or to the A&E, all of these

things. But really, if we had more funding, more emphasis placed on this disease to find answers, then, you know, a lot of that would be abated. Well, we will see what the Department of Defense on the U.S. side perhaps come up with. But in the meantime, people can how can they see below the belt? Below the belt, we're doing a series of in-person and virtual screenings for the rest of this calendar year and are just finalizing distribution deals around the world. So we'll have more information about that soon, but it will be widely available quite soon. Shannon Cohn, congratulations. Thank you very much for joining us today. There you go. And I have to say, talking of other conditions,

more and more messages still coming in with regards to COVID. So thank you for those, and we will do something with them. I promise. I'm not just asking because I'm nosy, although that is often the case. We will put those together and put them to good use. But tomorrow is the fifth anniversary of one of the UK's worst modern disasters, the fire which destroyed Grenfell Tower in June 2017. Just before 1am on 14th of June, a fire broke out in the kitchen of a fourth-floor flat at the 24-storey tower block in North Kensington, West London. Within minutes, the fire had raced up the exterior of the building and then spread to all four sides. By 3am, most of the upper floors were well alight. 72 people died. The public inquiry is ongoing and has been running for more than four years.

The final report is not expected until next year. The artist Tuesday Greenidge is sewing a quilt the size of Grenfell Tower to symbolise justice for survivors and the people affected. Members of her local community have contributed to it, along with other people from all over the world. And the singer Sophie Damasi was involved in a song called West Side Story, which came out this year in honour of the anniversary. A warm welcome to you both. Tuesday, I wanted to start with you. We've had many people actually get in touch this morning

about how creating can help with healing. Was that the driving force for you with this quilt? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Being an artist and living with bipolar, I've always found that a vehicle to support my maintaining my mental health and, you know, my life, basically. And why Grenfell for you? Well, my daughter was a survivor and we knew quite a few people in that building. I've been facilitating art in community projects for many years and there were quite a few members that attend our groups that were in there also.

So it's very personal. Yeah, yeah. And we live really, really close. Right, okay and and if you go around the area you can see green hearts can't you you can see which has become the symbol you could see people trying to respond uh in in ways that they can whatever they've got and however they connect to to this absolute tragedy uh with you and the quilt i can actually see you were on a video call i can see you're wearing actually a green heart badge. But the quilt, I believe, is a bit behind you.

I wondered, could you describe it? Or some of it? Yeah, yeah. I tried to replicate the memorial walls that grew up around the area. They grew organically with everybody bringing their tributes and tying them to railings or pinning them to um you know walls spaces and trees and uh so what i did i've done a i used a jelly roll technique which americans use for using using their scraps whilst quilting.

Because I wanted to cover the dimensions of the building, 220 foot high by 72 foot incidentally, we had to look at a way that would economically work. So because we used donations basically, so that was a way of cutting them into jelly roll strips as you can see they're striped like a wall behind so it's kind of like a fabric wall I wanted to create and then people pin their contributions on like this one here is a wonderful embroidery and quilted embroidery that we've only just received several days ago and it's an image of the Grenfell Tower so we sew them on top of the fabric wall that's incredible that somebody's created that looks amazing let me bring in Sophie Damasi

good morning morning how are you connected to Grenfell? Well, I've grown up in West London my whole life and I was surrounded by the tragedy when it happened. I saw a lot of members of my community really affected, so it's a very important cause to me. So it's a highly personal, again, to you. And the story, West Side Story, of course, people think of something else, but tell us how that came about and what it means.

Well, I was contacted by Toddler T a couple of months ago to sing the hook of the song. As he knows, I'm from West London. He knew how important it would be to me. And when he came to me with the request, I got back to him immediately. I recorded the hook and it yeah, it was, yeah, came about quite quickly. And you're talking there about the music producer. We actually have a clip.

So let's have a listen and I'll come back to you. Okay. Okay. Our best, we done our best Don't we spam me W10, we're the best, what's grown? Stay pinned on the map, gotta give us our throne Everyone's local, every block we call home Grenfell was the biggest tragedy known Couple friends lost, hit my heart with agony Got a hole in my heart like cavities

Everyone round it to me is family So mind me, I talk rapidly Rap and change me, I say it with chest Carnival coming, just whine and flex Stay tuned on the line, I ain't got no rest My phone still beating, I stay getting checks Ah, stay tuned on the line, I ain't got no rest. My phone's still beating, I stay getting checks. See my phone's still beating, I'm still getting checks. Just big up the whole of it.

Born in 10, but raised in 11, you know what it is. It's great to be able to hear that. It's powerful. It's obviously very powerful lyrics in there. And it's important, I'm sure, for you, Sophie, for people, local people, survivors to connect with the song. What's been the reaction? Reaction has been amazing.

I've got lots of messages online emphasising how the song represents us never forgetting, never giving up, holding the government accountable, the people who need to be held accountable and basically never giving up the fight. Yes, I mean, we should say that Scotland Yard detectives investigating possible crimes still have yet to make any significant arrests. I also mentioned about the report due next year, which has been ongoing for the last four years. Tuesday, to come back to you, I'm aware the anniversary, of course, is tomorrow.

Do you do anything specifically on the 14th of June? Yeah, we're exhibiting the quilt pieces in our local library where we hold the Sewing Bee. Yeah, so I'm going to be very right close to the building and I'm going to be on Eddie Nestor's show also that he's based right opposite the building and uh i'm going to be um on eddie nester's show also that he's based right opposite the building taking a quilt block down there the piece that i've made called the silent walk eddie nester my colleague at bbc radio london of course just in case people don't know the brilliant work of eddie uh no no no you know i like to i like to promote he's uh he's a great

he's a great broadcaster and radio friend to many. And do you, I mean, in terms of you, Sophie, is there something you specifically do each year or is it part of what you've done with the song? Yeah, I feel like the song is a big representation coming all together for the fifth anniversary, yeah. But every year I would attend marches around my area. Since I'm in LA right now, I can't do that, but yeah.

That's part of how you've shown your thinking about Grenfell. Thank you very much, Sophie Demasi. The song is called West Side Story, of course referring to the West London location with regards to Grenfell, as well as, of course, the lyrics, some of which you heard there. Tuesday, good luck with the rest of the quilt and ongoing with your work.

And I'm sure, of course, you'll be taking that time tomorrow to think of those who sadly and tragically did not survive. Thank you very much. Tuesday, greenage there there thank you to you a lot of you have been in touch about creativity and how it's helped you of course hearing there about the creation of a quilt and people coming together

to do that sort of work and also Sophie putting memories and thoughts and anger and frustration into song Sue has written in to say learning to garden and making a garden a bit like my chat with Rosie, saved me. I've had four spinal operations in my mid-30s, which failed and

left me with constant severe chronic pain. I'm now 75, but gardening, which is a crazy interest if you have spinal problems, as she puts it. And Sue says, helped me rebuild my life. Sue, thank you very much indeed for that message and to so many of you getting in touch on a whole range of issues today, especially alighting upon that theme of creativity through pain and how it helps you, especially I've noticed making things as opposed to growing, just growing things as well, but both. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Uncanny is back.

The hit paranormal podcast returns with a summer special that will chill you to the bone. It was a real dream holiday, really. The family trip of a lifetime becomes the holiday from hell. Whoever was in that room wanted to do us harm and wanted to frighten us. The Uncanny Summer Special, out now. What do you think was in that house? Six very frightened tourists and something else that didn't want us there. Subscribe to Uncanny on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.