Woman's Hour - Youngest Afghan mayor, Romanticising your life, surviving WWII Japanese prison camp, Big tech & sexuality

Episode Date: August 15, 2023

Today marks two years since the re-taking of Afghanistan by the Taliban. We speak to Afghanistan's youngest female mayor, Zarifa Ghafari, who was elected mayor of the conservative central city of Maidan Shahr in 2018, aged 23, and survived three assassination attempts while still living in the country. During one of these attempts, her father was killed. Following the Taliban’s return to power in August 2021, she fled Afghanistan along with her husband, mother and siblings. But she still receives daily death threats from the Taliban despite fleeing to Germany two years ago.Across social media, everyday activities such as making dinner for yourself, going for a walk or buying yourself flowers have been transformed into acts of feminist empowerment. The hashtag for the trend - ‘Romanticise your life’ - has over 1.5 billion views. Should we all be romanticising our lives more? Journalists Ellie Muir and Chanté Joseph look at the pros and cons of the trend.Women with poor mental health have an almost 50% higher risk of having a pre-term birth, that's according to a study of 2 million pregnancies in England. The research found that one in 10 women who had used mental health services before their pregnancy had a pre-term birth, compared with one in 15 who did not. We hear from one of the reports authors, Louise Howard, who is professor emerita in women’s mental health at King’s College London. Today is VJ day which marks the surrender of Japan and therefore the end of World War Two. Olga Henderson was 13 in 1945, starving in a camp in Singapore alongside other young internees. Now 91, Olga will join us in the studio to talk about her time in the camps recalled in her new – and first - book, In the Shadow of the Rising Sun.Journalist Ellie House is bisexual. But before she had even realised that, it felt like Big Tech had already worked it out, with some sites regularly recommending her LGBTQ content. Ellie joins Nuala to speak about her quest to understand how recommendations systems really work, and the risks and rewards of being queer online. She’ll also tell us about speaking to people for whom these kind of recommendations could become potentially life-threatening. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey00:00 Opener 02:00 Afghanistan 11:38 Romanticise Your Life 21:04 Pregnancy 30:54 Olga Henderson 45:47 Big Tech

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. A new study out this morning has found that women who struggle with their mental health have an almost 50% higher risk of preterm births. It's the biggest study of its kind. It's published today in the Lancet Psychiatry. And we're going to speak to one of the authors of the report this morning on those findings. Also today, have you romanticised your life?

Have you, maybe this morning, got up early to watch the sunrise, created a beautiful breakfast? If you've been on TikTok or Instagram, you may have come across this trend of embellishing your surroundings or actions with romance. But I should say, without a friend or partner. So today, I'd like to hear from you about what you've done solo, whether you call it romanticising your life or not. But I'd really also like to hear

from those who haven't been able to go out for that dinner alone or holiday solo or go to the cinema by yourself. What holds you back? So whether you are a person who does everything by themselves, very independent or not, we want to hear from you and your reasons behind it. The text number is 84844.

We're at BBC Woman's Hour on social media and a WhatsApp note or a voice message that is 03700 100 444. Or indeed, you can email us through our website. Also today, we'll speak with BBC reporter Ellie House, who came out as bisexual, but she realised that Netflix seemed to know before her. So we're going to speak about the implications of that. And today is VJ Day, Victory Over Japan Day, which occurred on August 15th, 1945. A young girl, Olga Henderson, was a prisoner of war in Singapore at that time. But Olga is now 91 and will be with us in studio

to tell us what she remembers about that day. But today, it's also two years since the retaking of Afghanistan by the Taliban. Last week, if you were with us, you'll know we spoke to Afghan doctor and footballer Dr Nadia Nadim. You could find that interview by searching for Woman's Hour for the 11th of August. Today, my guest is Afghanistan's youngest female mayor, Zarifa Ghaffari. She was elected mayor of the city of Maidan Shahr in 2018, then aged 23 and survived three assassination attempts while still living in the country. During one of those attempts

her father was killed. Following the Taliban's return to power two years ago, she fled Afghanistan along with her husband, mother and siblings. But she still receives daily death threats despite fleeing to Germany two years ago. Zarifa joins me now.

Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Thank you, Anna. I'm really grateful to speak to you once again about Afghanistan and Women of Afghanistan, especially on 15th of August, which is a critical day for everyone when you think back to that day what do you remember oh uh it's really hard to speak about what i remember

because i would only think i remember it was myself being shocked and walking around and asking everyone what's happened and what's happening next. Because I was like, you know, shocked. I didn't know. Early morning I went to my office and it was like not, I really didn't, you know, expect everything happening this soon. And losing entire your 20 years of life, not only you, but your country, your people, and all those values that you have fought for it so tirelessly. So yeah, that's what I remember clearly. And then I remember those scenes where Taliban were taking off the flags of Afghanistan from the high tops of mountains and putting their own flags instead of that which was terribly hard and

i was i was witnessing those uh horrors of airport because my house my home and then cabot my maternal house it was close to airport so we knew what's happening. And that was only three, four things I remember from that day. But the hardest one was the one which, you know, knowing that everything is gone. And of course, a lot of people are still coming to terms with that. Was it difficult to decide to leave because you mentioned the airport there and that you lived close to it. Those scenes were just shocking of people hanging on to airplanes as they left. How soon did you know, I'm going to have to go? It was not so soon. It was just last moment when I realized and I got information from everyone,

colleagues and friends, that my family won't be able to leave until I am not leaving with them because they are not interested. They are not. It's me who is, you know, in danger. So if I can be in the front, I can take everyone like my family also out with me. So to safeguard my family's life, especially after losing my dad, I wasn't able to see another loss of my family. So, you know, and more importantly, safeguarding my three sisters' life, educational life, because I knew there's no future for them left in Afghanistan after the Taliban's return. So I decided. It was the hardest decision to ever make. It was terribly hard.

It was really, really, you know, I was. And then more importantly, it was the moment when I decided to, at least at the last seconds when we were walking to the plane, I asked my mom, can I stay, please? So then she was like, you know, if you say I will not go. So that was, you know, I was begging her to please let me stay. That was really, really hard. My feet were not going to plane. It was like just stuck on the ground. And my husband was just pulling my hand and then, you know, pushing me up. And so you got on that plane and you made your way

to Germany. But as I was mentioning to my listeners, you still receive daily death threats. Um, talk me through those. What is said to you? Do you know who is behind them? Definitely, it's not only through my social media, but through, you know, different addresses. Lastly, the Taliban

or Taliban governmental officials in the Wardak province, they have tried to, you know, kind of took over, took the control of my radio station, Pirlef, in that province. And they have been trying so hard to, you know, always creating problems around. They are now, after my radio station, they are trying so hard, but my teams are working with them. They are inside to not let them silence this. Then outside, it's the social media.

I'm receiving daily thousands of threats, weekly or monthly thousands of threats, and daily, like, you know, hundreds. But I think it's, you know, especially nowadays when we have not left anything else, like we have nothing else in our reach, like schools, universities, institutions, media, everything is under control of taliban the only thing is left is social media and the social media is also something which we can you know use to rise awarenesses so i feel like that and i really don't and then more importantly it's nothing new for me i have been through the same path since 2014. So you sound you sound to me though Zarifa like that you're taking it in your stride in some ways do those threats not

affect you or worry you? Definitely it is like something especially now when I when I am nearly a new mom like you know just know, just a few days, it's been I have got my goals. So for me now it's like, you know, definitely whenever I am since these few days thinking about the next what to do, first I'm putting my goals. So this way it can be hard to say that I am not afraid, but if it comes just about me and my decision, these threats were never affecting me and will never affect me.

That's why I was working still in Afghanistan. And that's why I'm so committed to do my work, to do my job and whatever is possible. Congratulations on your baby. Thank you so much. That's wonderful news. But are you able to affect change from Germany? Definitely. Not only to rising awarenesses, but joining international platforms,

lobbying on international grounds, while knowing that internationally Afghanistan is being forgotten by everyone. So it's so important that someone is just there and speak to everyone and let everyone know and raise awareness. So that's the first thing. Secondly, I am already actively involved inside Afghanistan. I'm working with a woman, with those women who have no male guardians to facilitate their financial situation of life. But yeah, I can't leak more information on this because, you know, there are problems on

organizations leading by women or organizations who are working for women. So I really, for the safety of my colleagues, I can leak more information on that. But yeah, definitely, I am working with women. And I feel like if I can, if I can, nothing more, if I can pay for one time food of a family from my own pocket, not from any donation, not from any fund or any project-wise working, I feel so, so, so blessed.

And I think it is the change that you can make. The change that you can make. Zarifa Ghaffari, thank you so much for spending some time with us. She was Afghanistan's youngest female mayor, but as many others did, fled Germany two years ago after the Taliban

took over two years ago today. Now, a question for you. Are you listening to us right now in your car, in your kitchen, maybe somewhere a bit more far-flung? We know we've got listeners all over the world, and we'd love to hear from you for Listener Week. So whether you're in Seville or maybe seoul uh let us know what is affecting women's lives where you are

you can text us that's 84844 on social media it's at bbc women's hour or you can email us through the website lots of you getting in touch about romanticizing your life i'm 66 live alone and following a pretty lonely period, I now have got a grip and accepted that fact. Currently in Permporth with my little dog and enjoying outings, dinner out and mindful walks. Another from Georgie. I've romanticised my post-run

shower with a coffee outside. I'm in my towel sitting in the beautiful sunshine. It's private and peaceful. I'm listening to Women's Hour, Georgie. Glad to hear it. Well, why am I talking about this? Because across social media, everyday activities, such as making yourself dinner, going for a walk, buying yourself flowers, it has been transformed

into acts that some are calling feminist empowerment. The hashtag for this trend is Romanticise Your Life. It has over 1.5 billion views. It aims to make you live your life as if you are the main character in a rom-com. And joining me to discuss this is Ellie Muir, journalist at The Independent, who's feeling the pressure of the trend,

and journalist and Guardian podcast host Shante Joseph, who's stopped waiting for a relationship to live a romantic life and hasn't looked back. And she's sitting beside me here in the studio. You're both so welcome. Ellie, maybe you could, I don't know, expand a little on how you see romanticising your life, how one would do it.

Yeah, good morning. So romanticising your life ultimately means finding joy within the really little things to view your life more positively. And I think it's similar to the way in which we might try and shift our outlook when we're practicing mindfulness as well and as you say it's become really popular on social media especially with young women and the term is often used in tandem with the idea of

self-love which is doing things for yourself that you might otherwise do for or with a romantic partner but kind of the people on TikTok that are making these videos and recommending how to romanticize your life, they say, you know, it can just start with cooking yourself a nice solo dinner or buying yourself flowers or going out on a solo date.

I don't know whether anybody can say buy yourself flowers without that Miley Cyrus song coming into my head, which I feel is on every TikTok video that I have opened over the past few months. Now, Shante, you're with the trend. Are you romanticising your life? Talk me through it. Absolutely. I think it's such an important trend. I feel like the day that like the age we're living

in now, when you think of all of like the economic instability and violence, degradation, the world feels like it's crumbling. And like, if I can just sit on my terrace like that listener and drink my coffee and just be like do you know what maybe life isn't terrible I think that's a beautiful thing and I also feel like so much of what we kind of see as I guess romanticizing your life or doing nice things for yourself is what we expect someone to receive if they're in a romantic partnership and so when we kind of take those experiences away from people who are partnered and we give it to ourselves we kind of then give ourselves a lot more leniency to be kinder to ourselves to treat ourselves and to not wait for anything because I feel like you could spend your whole life waiting for those flowers but you can

also just go and get them yourself and support local businesses at the same time so I feel like this works for everyone so what's wrong with that Ellie I mean that all sounds very positive do you have a problem with it I think it's like definitely super empowering and especially for people who are surrounded by people in relationships it can be like a really nice way to recenter yourself um but kind of from my perspective I'm Gen Z and I'm kind of seeing this TikTok trend um kind of play out in a different way on social media it's kind of turned into this this idea that people are filming themselves

through these really mundane tasks and daily activities and turning them to like really aesthetically pleasing camera ready routines, which is great. But I worry that this might put pressure on people to think that life like is always shiny and rosy. And I think sometimes these videos in particular I think the whole idea is great but it's the way it's sort of materialized on social media kind of hides the reality that life might just be a bit boring sometimes and then not every moment like doing

your laundry can be romanticized yeah I've read some really interesting pieces about this and one thing I found Sarah Minervis wrote asked asked about this in The Guardian, where she was saying how the problem with these sort of videos is they present life in a very monotonous way. But the reason why people are so drawn to it is because there's so much chaos and instability in their own lives, that seeing someone wake up every morning and make the same coffee every morning, it just gives them something, a sense of like stability to cling on to. It kind of feels like, okay, cool. This sense of normalcy in and amongst all of the chaos kind of makes me feel more assured. But I do understand that, yes, sometimes these trends are very much tied to capitalism and buying things and encouraging you to kind of spend money that you may or may not have in order to feel part of an aesthetic. But I think for me, it's more about thinking about what you deny yourself because you think it's something that you're only entitled to by others. Like not everyone has a solid group of friends. Not everyone has a romantic partner.

And so sometimes I think romanticizing your life is about not waiting to receive the things that you know that you want because you're hoping that at some point in the future, this thing will happen to you. It's about kind of taking agency over your own life. And for me, that's why I kind of apply to this like quote unquote trend. Okay, some of the messages that are coming in. My friend calls having a deep clean of her flat making love to the flat. Now I've thought of it that way. It feels more special. And I find myself doing things like talking to the plants as I remove dust from the leaves. If that's not romance, I don't know what is. Here's another. I go on holiday on my own, but while I'm away, I have my house dry cleaned and my bedding professionally laundered. So it is like coming home to a hotel. Okay, going up one.

Here's another. Let me see. I don't have a name, but it says I love going to the cinema alone. It's one of the things I do to escape from what I call the terrible loneliness. Actually, sometimes when I go with other people, I can get so self-conscious and focus on them instead of the film. Escaping into a film is one of the things I do as self-care. Maybe as I'm single at the age of 48, I've had to force myself to tune into moments of joy. And that's great. I think that people are doing these things. But I also want to hear from people, 84844, that haven't been able to get over that hurdle or that obstacle, whatever it might be, about doing things alone. Even if it's going to a restaurant, having a meal, going to the cinema, going on holidays. I wonder, do tiny steps help lead to those bigger ones? A hundred percent. Like if it's just going somewhere for a coffee,

bringing a book with you, then like start really small and start to work your way up. And also I find particularly if you're traveling by yourself and you're like, how do I navigate this place on my own? Book things like guided or organized tours where you're with other people and together you're doing an activity that you're all focusing on. Like you don't have to put yourself in the middle of a club in the middle of berlin you do what i mean like you can start although you can't end up there yeah you can but i feel like you could definitely

start with like things that are already put together and already organized and work your way slowly like when i go out to eat by myself i either have an audio book with me because there's no way i'm flicking the pages and trying to eat my steak at the same time right very hard i have a good audio book and i have my food and I and it's like it's so relaxing I'm going to eat somewhere I've always wanted to eat and I'm not worried about everyone else around me because I have something else to focus on so it's like don't be so self-conscious if this was something that people were doing Ellie but that it wasn't to be camera ready I mean the amount of trends that just create more content could blow your mind uh do you have

an issue with it in that way is it just the camera ready aspect of it I I think it's just the way it's becoming on social media it's this really really sort of formulaic video that we're seeing um and yeah I just worry that people will sort of feel this pressure that they their life has to look a certain way what about that I think yeah I I agree in some senses it can be quite like you can feel the pressure to wake up every day at 5am and light incense and read a book and whatnot because your favorite influencer did it but I feel like there's there's an element of like understanding that life is not completely going to follow routine all the time. And it's not always going to be orderly.

And there will be some chaos. But I think what kind of romanticising your life does, or even some of these routines do, is always bring you back to self or bring you back to something that you know that you can have control over or something that feels predictable, something that feels safe.

But yes, the aesthetics are a huge part of it. And in making you feel like your life should look a particular way is is is quite dangerous um so i think you should kind of take all this stuff with a pinch of salt and you shouldn't feel the pressure to present a version of yourself online that isn't true to you if it's not what makes you feel comfortable but you should also kind of take control of your own life and your own narrative and not be you know a passenger in the sea of your own life and just do things because you want to do it, because it brings you joy, not because you're waiting for someone else to do it for you. I'm single, says another listener, with 25 rescue dogs, pigs and sheep living on a wonderful farm

in West Wales. I have the best time seeing these wonderful dogs have a second chance running around the farm with spectacular views. I have time to read and take good care of myself with yoga and healthy eating. I'm one very happy girl. And I'm going to leave the last word. Let me see to Debbie. I romanticise my Saturday at the weekend with a beautiful posy

of expensive roses that smell absolutely gorgeous and are sitting in my kitchen. A gift from me to me. Self-love is the best sort. And of course, I've got that Miley Cyrus song in my head again.

Ellie Muir, Shante Joseph, thank you both so much. Thank you. Let us move on now to a study that I mentioned at the top of the programme that is out today. Women with poor mental health have an almost 50% higher risk of having a preterm birth. That is according to a study of 2 million pregnancies in England. A preterm birth is when the baby is born before 37 weeks of pregnancy. The research found that 1 in 10 women who had used specialist mental health services

before their pregnancy had a preterm birth, compared with one in 15 who did not. Now, one of the report's authors is Louise Howard. She is a professor emerita at Women's Mental Health at King's College London and joins me now. Welcome, Louise. Thank you. So what was the impetus to carry this study out?

And I do believe it's one of the biggest studies of its kind looking into this issue. Before this study, we didn't have comprehensive data on whether or not in this country, women who'd had contact with specialist services, and what we mean by specialist is secondary care. So psychiatric care, that might be from a team, seeing a mental health nurse, or it might be seeing a psychiatrist. So what we wanted to know is what was the extent of adverse outcomes in terms of preterm birth, small for gestational age, baby, stillbirth, etc. In women who'd had contact with mental health services? And was there a relationship between how severe the illness had been

and these adverse outcomes? And was there? Yes, I mean, indeed, what we found was that if you take preterm birth, for example, as you said, you've got a one in 10, it's actually 9.8% of women with a history of contact with mental health services had a preterm birth compared with 6.5% and women with no contact. But if you look at women who'd had a history of actual admission to a psychiatric hospital, then the percent was 13.4%. So you can see that there's this gradient of what type of illness you had, was it more severe, and then there is this increased risk. We've had very similar relationships for small for gestational age babies.

So that's when the baby is small for the gestational age, by which we mean, you know, was the baby 30 weeks or 38 weeks or whatever um when the the weight was measured and similarly for um still birth and neonatal um deaths again an increased risk for women who had been hospitalized um and there wasn't actually a significant increased risk for women who'd only had any contact so you're alluding to it there but we may as well spell it out just exactly when we talk about poor mental health, the severity of those issues that people are suffering, what are they or what conditions might they be suffering from? Yes, so we're talking about women who've actually had contact with a psychiatrist or somebody else from a mental health team. So not women who've only been seen by their GP or the talking therapies. So we're talking about women who had a more severe illness

that necessitated these types of secondary care contacts with a psychiatrist or mental health team. And is that before the pregnancy or during the pregnancy? Or does that make a difference? That's a great question. So what we have got is a history but actually if you look at more recent history so in the year before the pregnancy that also is associated with a greater risk compared with if the contact was only let's say more than five years before the pregnancy. We didn't have data for mental illness during pregnancy and that

is a really important limitation of our study. So what would you be calling for with the results of this study when it comes to mental health and to try and reverse I suppose what you're seeing? So when midwives are asking women a whole host of questions about their physical health, it's really important to ask about mental health as well. Now, that's already been recommended by NICE that midwives should ask about mental health at every contact. But what this study shows is that actually we need quite a lot of detail to identify women at the greatest risk. So, you know, did they have actual admission to hospital in the past? Or, you know, when was the contact? And how many times did they see the mental health team? And if there is a history of more severe types of illness,

then clearly the mental health needs to be prioritised. So it may be that it's appropriate for a specialist community perinatal mental health team to also care for the woman in addition to maternity services. And we also need to make sure that we address modifiable risk factors such as smoking, substance misuse, domestic abuse, which is a big stressor for women. Because I suppose kind of going to the other side of that is what is it about mental health conditions that would then lead to a preterm birth? relationship with these adverse outcomes. What we're saying is there's an association, and it may be that association exists for a variety of reasons. It's not inevitable that if you've got a history, you're going to have one of these adverse outcomes. But we do know that women with mental health problems are more likely to also experience risk factors for these adverse outcomes, such as obesity, smoking, substance misuse, and experiencing other stresses such as domestic violence. There was...

And of course, many of these are treatable. I should just highlight that not only is mental illness treatable, but also many of these other risk factors are also treatable. Yes. And so it's really to raise awareness, I imagine, with this report to try and then be able to intervene at an earlier stage. Absolutely. Identification of these risk factors is key. There was a separate report by the Royal College of Midwives. This is out tomorrow that suggests that half of pregnant women who suffer anxiety and depression don't tell their health professionals because they are ashamed. It's an interesting aspect coming on the heels of the study that's out today.

I mean, what would you suggest in that particular scenario for professionals to be able to check in on pregnant women if in fact they don't want to share that information? Yes, it's really a common issue that people don't want to disclose and therefore when somebody such as a midwife is asking about mental health, it's really important to ask in a non-judgmental, sensitive way. Just asking, even if the person doesn't disclose, highlights that this midwife is ready to hear about mental health and therefore she can ask again and should ask again throughout the pregnancy and it may be that once the trusting relationship is built with the midwife that the

woman feels more able to disclose. Part of the problem though with maternity care is often it's a different midwife at every contact and we know that continuity of care is also really important for other reasons. But one of the reasons would be so that people can build up a trusting relationship with their midwife to disclose things like mental illness or domestic abuse. I understand. And one other, when we're talking about women, but let's talk about the men in this. There was a recent study from Sweden that suggested that the risk for preterm births that we're speaking about can also be affected by a father's mental health.

I know you have briefly looked at that study as well, but what do you think it tells us? Yeah, it's a really interesting study. And again, they were looking at specialist mental health care. So these fathers had had contact on relatively severe types of illness. They also looked at were looking at specialist mental health care so these fathers had had contact and relatively

severe types of illness they also looked at individual psychiatric diagnoses and what they found was that for any diagnosis there was this increased risk for preterm birth they didn't look at all of the outcomes that we've looked at but still it does highlight that it might be something about the genetics that are important. It may be that having a partner with a mental illness in itself is very stressful, and that's therefore affecting the woman's stress system in the way that similarly mental illness might be impacting on the stress system during the pregnancy, which we know can therefore lead to preterm birth. And then, of course, the father might be smoking.

And we know that passive smoking, environmental smoking, is also really important as a modifiable risk factor for adverse obstetric outcomes. Really interesting. Louise Howard, Professor Emerita in Women's Mental Health at King's College London. And that study out today, finding that women with poor mental health have an almost 50% higher risk of having a pre-term birth. Thank you so much. Many of you have continued to get in touch about romanticising your life. Here's one from Mary. I used to be really self-conscious being

on my own. However, I spent a year living in Budapest and whilst there I saw the film Sabrina and it helped me start enjoying being on my own. Another from Maddie. I never take my phone with me when walking my dog first thing in the morning. I enjoy the bees and the wildlife and the fresh air, even the rain. I also plan a tasty homemade dinner while I'm walking. Another from Caroline, who is taking herself to London this afternoon. She'll go to an exhibition and a gallery on her own. And she was wondering, should she wait for the weekend to do this with her husband? But it has decided she's doing it now. Life is short. That's right Caroline, glad to hear you're on your way to London. Hope you have a great day.

Now today is VJ Day, Victory Over Japan Day, marking the surrender of Japan in 1945 and therefore the end of World War II. Olga Morris, now Olga Henderson, was 13 at the time and living, or perhaps rather surviving, in one of the notorious Japanese camps for civilian internees. Along with her older sister Mary and her younger brothers, Peter and George, she was imprisoned in 1942 following a sudden knock at the door when the children and their parents were given half an hour to gather essentials. For the next three years at Changi Jail and then the Syme Road camp, they suffered disease, malnutrition and brutal treatment, fearing they would never be free. We'll talk about how Olga was treated in the camp and also how her family was treated now.

Olga is now 91 and she's written her first book, In the Shadow of the Rising Sun, published in July. She joins us now to talk about that story of survival and bravery. Welcome, Olga. Hello. Wonderful to have you with us. You were living, if we turn back to that day in 1945, that BJ day, as I mentioned,

you were living in the Syme Road camp when the war ended. Do you remember how you heard the news? Yes, yes. We were, well, in front of the hut. We just had about eight feet of sort of sandy mud in front of the hut. And we were just on the top messing about. And then all of a sudden we heard the plane and it came over

and all this sort of confetti sort of stuff came down. And that was the leaflet to say that the war had come to an end. How incredible. And I was just handed before, as you came into the studio, Olga, the pamphlet of which you have a copy. And this is incredible. So I have it in my hand here, which would have been

one of the pieces of confetti, so to speak. Yes. It says, To all Allied prisoners of war, the Japanese forces have surrendered unconditionally and the war is over. I mean, that's just an incredible thing to think you would pick up off the ground and read.

Yes, yes, yes. And of course we were, so of course when the others saw it, they were all rushing as well. So we were all grabbing what we could, you know. It also says we'll get supplies to you as soon as humanly possible. We'll make arrangements to get you out.

But owing to the distances involved, it may be some time before we can achieve this. One, stay in your camp until you get further orders start preparing nominal rolls of personnel giving fullest particulars list your most urgent necessities and if you've been starved or underfed for long periods do not eat large quantities of solid food fruit or vegetables at first it is dangerous for you to do so because, of course, you wouldn't have eaten. Tell me about your time in that camp and what you went through.

Because when I was reading some of the details, it was brutal. Yes, yes. It was completely different from Changi, of course, because we were just out in the wild, you might say, you know. And what we ate in the vegetable line was just, you know, grown in the camp. But the thing was that what we grew there, the Japanese, it was their vegetables, not ours. So they had the first pickings. So there's normally not much left but the men did all the cooking and then the food was brought in to the women's camp through the barbed wire gate and they used to come in tubs and and the last Christmas we were told we were going to have bread and we were going to have pork and of course we were all

really excited about this well when we got our bread it was the size of two bits of your fingers and it wasn't bread it was just pound up sweet corn and that was our bread and we found seven pieces of meat in a tub of pork. So that was our Christmas dinner. Right. And so there was always this lack of food. When we go back to VJ Day, were there rumors about the war ending before those pamphlets came? No, I don't remember, you know, anything in that way. It was probably not something the children would pick up, you know. Yes, yes.

And your day-to-day life in Syme Road, how would you describe it? Well, my mother had to cook all the food for the Japanese army, you know. And she had a great big wok, nearly as big as this table, a bit smaller. And the Japanese, mum used to have to get up at half past four in the morning and fill it up with water and get it boiling by half past eight in the morning. The Japanese used to come down with a bag of rice and put it into the boiling water and they would come and collect it at 12 o'clock well when my mum fell once and she hurt her shoulder she um couldn't do it so i used to have to get up with her at bus four and help

her and um so that's and sometimes my mother managed to uh dry a bit at the bottom and pretended she couldn't get it off sticky at the bottom and pretended she couldn't get it off, sticky at the bottom. And she used to collect all that and sometimes manage, and I used to as well, very secretly, give it to some mothers with little children. And they used to have it as a biscuit. Because you'd just take any food that was going.

How was your physical state at that point? I think we were walking um bamboo sticks i think and we were dirty uh full of sores covered in head lice and it was so bad used to just shake your head and knock it off you because you didn't think of going into changi prison with a net comb and you know and if somebody had one they wouldn't lend it to you, it was too precious you know, yes because you had no shoes

or anything like that and you see you had no scissors so you just bit your nails silly things like that but that's what we had to do. But also I suppose a lot of scarring as well I know there is a story of your little brother who was punished for eating scraps of fruit, for example, that had fallen from the tree. Yes, Peter did, yes.

And he just picked it up. It was just automatic, you know, because we had the same tree in our garden at home before the war. And so he was punished because of stealing. They were very, very strict of things like that. And he was whipped, I understand as well, for that, for being punished.

And he was only a little boy at that time, I think. He was 11. 10 or 11, yes, indeed. But with that, because you do document this horrendous, I suppose, gruelling, physical, with that because you do document this horrendous i suppose grueling physical um manifestation of the war that you know that you weren't fed that obviously as your brother was

whipped and also being kept in such confines it's amazing you have made it to 91 well my sister's 94 but she's um in a home at the moment yes yes but she does you know especially sometimes because we were brought up in malaya we spoke the language and all that sometimes she'll she remembers you if you if i speak to her in malay she answers quite nicely. Yes. And with that do you think back to those times because I know you went through a lot of experiences that were very unpleasant and at times terrifying

with your family being separated or not knowing whether you'd survive. You've written this book and I imagine it must have been difficult to bring those memories up again. Yes, in a way. And yet there was, it was, it was, well, I'm going to say that's something you did,

but you just went with the flow. There's nothing else you could do. You know, you just adjust this. It was sort of adjusting all the time. It depended on the mood of the guards as to how you behaved. And you knew the way they walked down, you know, the shoes.

You knew the footsteps. And so you either were too close and you had to get ready to bow or you tried to get out of the way, you know. You also, you spent nearly 18 months in Syme Road. For the previous two years, you were in Changi Jail. Conditions were frightening, but the adults were able to organise some activities for you,

I understand, although obviously in secret. Even about the girl guides, tell us about them, your lessons. Yes, well, Mrs Ennis, who started, well, she didn't start it, but she was a guide leader before the war. And so she thought she'd, you know, get us girls going. So we got two, three of us, three troops of girls. And so it was during that time that Mrs. Ennis had her birthday. And so, we decided to do something for her.

And that's when we decided to make a quilt for her. So, that's when we were very naughty. We were always foraging, you know, because if you were working in the fields and the back of your dresses and clothes rotted you could get bits from the front and we got things like that and so we made this quilt for her That is in the Imperial War Museum

Yes And you're going to see it after the programme I believe Yes, yes How incredible is that? Yes, it's a and yes, I've seen it three times now, but it's so beautifully presented now. After the end of the war, your family were transported to Great Britain. It was the first time you and your siblings had been there.

How would you describe that experience? Well, after the first week or so, we thought we'd rather go back to Changi. Really? Yes. Why? Oh, well, we were so more or less abandoned as soon as we got to Southampton. The Red Cross was there and Salvation Army and they gave us a hot drink. And then my mother had a message to say that one of her sisters would put us up for two nights.

And I think there's a it turned out it was my mother's great great uncle managed to get a two up two down place for us so of course we opened the front door and it was just off the pavement and we walked in and there's nothing there it was absolutely empty that's where we're going to live. So then I think somebody scrounged and got two chairs, sort of armchairs for us. That went into the front bedroom off the road and mum and dad slept in there. They slept in there all the time.

Mum and dad never had a bed. And then there was three flights and the second floor Peter and George had, we just slept on the floor until other people gave us beds and that. So it was pretty rough as well when you arrived. You did eventually return to Malaysia. Yes. Is that where you felt most at home, do you think?

Oh, yes. But the thing was, you see, at the end of the war, we wanted to go home, as we said, you know. Yeah. But they wouldn't allow us they said because mom and dad were english we had to come to england they wouldn't allow us to go back to malaya again and um so that was awful i mean we'd never i don't we'd never had mashed potato before you know and we got home and there was no rice you know it was so such an absolute change i mean we even had rice in camp you know it's uh yes it was and we were so cold we had no clothes we hadn't we hadn't got an overcoat or or anything and the only pair of shoes i had for nine months was a pair of ladies' army shoes.

They gave us a lot of coupons for clothes and food, but we had no money to buy anything. No money at all. So that even shows life after you have been released. Do you think that the sufferings of internees has been recognized? Well, not really no well how it's so difficult too because everybody's different you know they feel differently about it i mean we we i mean to to start with it was a game when we got there mum said you'll have to go and look for the toilet well it was down in the orchard

and we had no water in the house that was down in the orchard and but um you see we had no buckets to go and get any water and i mean mum was crying in the little kitchen and somebody had given her a black kettle to put on this little range because when we got there, you see, there was no coal, no wood, so we had to get stuff from the garden. And then mum was crying because she said we can have a warm wash now because otherwise

we were just washing in cold water in November when we came back from the tropics. It's an incredible story. I want to thank you so much, Olga Henderson, for coming in

and sharing a little of it. I want to let my listeners know that your first book that you've written at the age of 91 is In the Shadow of the Rising Sun and it has been published last month. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye bye.

A couple of messages that have been coming in to us about romanticising your life. Love this romanticising of the single life. At 51, I look back and realise that my life would not be half as exciting if I had not travelled and lived for myself. Adventures I've been on on my own.

Argentina, Brazil, Australia, Hong Kong. These were life-changing and set paths to meeting romantic partners and starting new careers. That's Marguerite. Lindsay says, my partner and I had talked about a trip to New Zealand.

When he decided it was too far, I went alone. A three-week luxury coach trip, the most expensive I could find. Here's another. When all my children left home, I Instagrammed myself making bread

and lighting our fire. I always felt these things were part of motherhood, but by documenting them, I felt I was claiming them for my own enjoyment and it really helped with the loss. Keep them coming. 84844. Right, we're going to move on on Women's Hour now to my next guest. Talking about digital platforms, what was the last content

you accessed on a digital platform? Was it romanticising your life or something else? It could have been playing a song, watching a film, looking at videos. All those things, as we've talked about a few times on Women's Hour, have algorithms. So computer systems that follow a set of instructions to solve a problem. And they give us recommendations for what we might want to watch,

read or listen to next. But how much do these algorithms actually know about us? And how much of that information is then passed on to big tech companies? This is something that my next guest has been looking into. Radio producer and presenter Ellie House discovered that she was bisexual while at university. But here is the weird thing. She realised that Netflix had been recommending LGBTQ content to

her for six months before she even knew herself that she was bisexual. So how did Netflix know before she did? Well, Ellie has put together a documentary for the BBC World Service looking just at this and joins me now in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome. Thank you for having me. So talk us through how all this happened, how you discovered that Netflix knew something you didn't know yet. Yeah, so I was in my second year of university. And, you know, I was watching a lot of Netflix alongside doing my studies, of course.

Of course. And I noticed that I was getting a lot of recommendations for, I would say, quite niche TV programmes with lesbian characters or bisexual storylines. And I didn't think that much of it, to be honest. But when I told my friends about it, and these are people who, in any other sense, are basically the same as me, you know, with the same interests, with the same age, do the same courses. They'd never heard of them. Again, I just thought, oh, that's interesting. Why? I wonder why I'm getting these recommendations. And yeah, cut to six months later, I realised that I was bisexual. And I thought, oh, gosh, it really feels like Netflix knew first.

And so what did you do at that point? At that point, I just thought, one day I'm going to look into this. You know, I was a student journalist. And I thought one day when I'm a professional journalist, I will do something. And here we are, I've got my documentary. But as I kind of continued to grow up, I noticed other things. So Spotify, quite recently, really, in the last couple of years, recommended me a playlist, which I really like, which it describes as sapphic, which means women who love women. TikTok, when I first downloaded that, I was, I think, around two months of scrolling. I then started to get really specific content, you know, people saying this goes out to bisexual women who were in relationships with men, which I was at the time.

And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is very odd. So it's all kind of fuelled my desire to look into this. So how do algorithms work out things like that about you? Yeah, well, the first thing I should really say is that Netflix and all of these social media and streaming companies told me they don't collect demographic information like age, gender or sexuality. They said that what you've watched and how you've interacted with the platform is a much better indication of your tastes. So what I kind of realised is it's not like they knew that I was bi they knew that I would be interested in bisexual storylines and lesbian storylines um so that's the first point because you had looked at something like that previously no so for some people that is how it works you know what you watch um kind of is tagged the content the the storylines the characters the actors that's all tagged and they can, here's something similar to that.

You've watched this, therefore you might like this other thing. But it goes far, far deeper than that. So there's also a system where, you know, if you've watched something and I've watched the same thing that you've watched, then other things that you've watched I might like because we have a similar taste pattern we have similar interests um and that's usually where the explanations for this sort of thing stop um but what I found out is actually behavioral information so not necessarily what you watch but how you watch is just as important give me an example so what you click on whether you pause halfway through whether you pause and how long for um what device you're watching on what time of day you watch

um for some things i'm not it really this is across all platforms but sometimes it's the the screen resolution um you know really really minor details that... Subtitles? Yes, absolutely. All of these things, you know, to us they mean not very much. But if you think that a machine learning algorithm, which is bringing these recommendations, it has so much data and it draws patterns. But it is interesting because straight people can watch programmes listed as LGBT and not be gay. Just because you're being targeted with these programmes does not mean that you are gay.

No, not at all. And that's a really important point. We can't really draw full conclusions. But the point is, is that a lot of people who are LGBT in some way have experienced this. It's not just me. But yes, absolutely, there are some people who watch this content and just enjoy it and it's nothing to do with their sexuality. Now, algorithms in the UK, that's one thing. It is potentially dangerous for people living in other countries. I know this is something you wanted to find out more about.

I want to play a clip from the documentary of a man in Uganda who we're calling Robert. He was outed as gay by the algorithms. TikTok recommends good videos, gay videos. It will just bring on my For You page, gay content, without even typing in or asking for anything gay. Did you ever tell TikTok that you were gay? No, I never told TikTok.

I never told them. Because even in my bio, I never told TikTok. I never told them. Because even in my bio, there's nothing that says I'm gay. It came when they were signing the anti-gay bill in Uganda, you know? TikTok used to bring videos, like, when the people were going into court. So I would listen. And my auntie would say comments like, Why are you listening about LGBT? Then she asked me, why are you gay? She

says, don't lie to me. I know everything. I went through your phone. I see what you watch. I see your TikTok gay people in your comments. And she said, you can't live with me. You will influence my kids to become gay. You're a devil. You're worse even than a devil. We approached TikTok and all of the companies mentioned to get a response. None of the companies collect personal information like sexuality and they say they don't infer it either. But they do try and work out what sort of things we'd be interested in seeing, which might be LGBT content, for example. And also when it comes to Uganda, the Ugandan high commissioner said that no one has been discriminated upon based on their sexual orientation. But it doesn't condone the deliberate promotion of sexual orientation of any kind.

And our listeners may know that a recent law was passed by President Museveni. The law calls for life imprisonment for anyone who engages in gay sex. Anyone who tries to have same sex relations could be liable for up to a decade in prison. I mean, is there a way, Ellie, if you know, for people to block those algorithms or gathering content, behavioural content, even if it's not actually about their sexuality in that way? Yeah, I mean, so I'm definitely not a tech expert. You know, I'm looking at this as a journalist, but it really depends on the platform. So different platforms have certain ways to monitor it, to manage it. Google, for one, I know has introduced some measures, but it really does depend.

And for some of these platforms, particularly the ones where you're streaming content, you can't really switch off. They have to know what you've watched because you're watching it. You can't really switch that off. The only way you can stop them from collecting that information is to not use the platform, which a lot of the people I spoke to, they really want to use the platforms. Particularly with people like Robert. I mean, he is interesting to me. Did he want to continue using it as well? I'm just wondering because he might be finding community, but he's

also, of course, getting ostracized. Yeah. And this is a point that really came out from all of the people I spoke to. They're really conflicted. Robert, for example, he is still going to be using TikTok. He doesn't actually blame TikTok at all. He just, you know, he loves, he loves, he's found community. He said to me, when I watch TikTok, I feel like I'm in the UK or the US. I don't feel like I'm in Uganda anymore. And he's met people. I also spoke to another man in Uganda who watches Netflix. And he said that, you know, he really loves watching these things, but also they are scared. So it's a really difficult balance, and I'm not sure where that is. So were you able to make a decision in the documentary

about whether being queer online carries more risks or rewards? No, I think it's something that we need to be talking about and that people need to be aware of. But yeah, I think it's a personal decision for everyone who uses these platforms as to how far they want to use them. Really interesting. Ellie House, thank you so much for joining us. And if you did miss Ellie on the World Service this morning, don't worry. You can also listen this afternoon, 1.30 on the BBC World Service or, of course, anytime on BBC Sounds.

I want to let you know what's on tomorrow. The Invincibles, the untold story of one of the most successful women's football teams of World War One and as the spirit of the Sterling ladies lives on in the Lionesses' epic Women's World Cup adventure. This summer, a play about them opens at

the Queen's Theatre in Hornchurch, Essex, early next month. So Amanda Whittington, one of the most produced British playwrights, has penned the play and joins me tomorrow. We're also going to hear from parents of children with long-term health conditions, learning disabilities or who are autistic

and who want more flexibility so they can still be involved even when their child turns 18 and moves into adult services. So we'll have a rich conversation on that as well. Right, lots of messages coming in that I want to read before we finish. What an amazing interview

with a 91-year-old lady about her early life. I'd love to hear her speak more about what happened after that arrival in England and the empty house that her family landed in. Well, in the shadow of the rising sun

is the book. What a truly inspirational woman, says another. I have such respect for the stoic, compassionate woman that you are, Olga. You casually mentioned

your dress is rotting in the fields and making a quilt from the patches which still exists as if it was nothing. It's so touching. I look forward

to reading your book. And one more. I'm newly widowed at 61 and I'm just starting to organise solo trips to the theatre and trips away.

My first solo holiday will be in a few days in a youth hostel not too far from home. Enjoy. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I saw a footprint. I'm Andrew Benfield and I'm obsessed with the Yeti. The face looks like some kind of monkey. The idea of a Yeti-like creature has been around

for centuries. But could it be real? In Yeti, a new 10-part series from BBC Radio 4, I'm going to try to find out. I'll be joined by a good friend. You said we were going for a short walk across the valley. I'm Richard Horsey. This search isn't going to be easy. They have the ability to disappear. Are we chasing phantoms? Yeti, Jesus, you'll never find them. But in this series, we think we might. Listen to Yeti on BBC Sounds. What's there? I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.