Woman's Hour - Your experience of feeding your baby

Episode Date: January 30, 2019

Listeners to Woman's Hour and BBC Radio Sheffield share their experience of breast, bottle or mixed feeding. Following our survey which found half of women felt they'd let their baby down when they struggled we discuss how women make their decisions, the difficulities they encountered and things they wish they'd known.Presenters Jane Garvey and Paulette Edwards Producer Jane Thurlow

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Hi, this is Jane Garvey, and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Wednesday the 30th of January 2019. This is a phone-in edition of the show in cooperation with our friends at BBC Radio Sheffield. It's really an extension of the conversation we've been having all week about feeding your baby. And you are about to hear, well I hope you you enjoy the range of calls and the range of stories. And some of them are funny. Some of them are really, really sad. And if I've learned anything from this, it's that too many women are feeling guilty when they shouldn't. And it can go on for years. So here's the phone in. It features as well Paulette Edwards, who's the mid-morning presenter on BBC Radio Sheffield.

Good morning. How are you? I'm really well. I'm not well, as you know, because we've discussed it. But well, yeah, enough of that. Now, who can forget our seminal menopause programme? Almost nobody who heard it, that's for sure. Which is why we're repeating it with a conversation today about feeding your baby. And it's fair to say, Paulette, this is an emotive issue, isn't it? Absolutely, yes yes I've interviewed lots of people about lots of things I've talked to people about things that I've never done never been involved in I have spoke very openly about the fact that I've never been a mum

never had a child myself but I found this completely different talking to people about feeding their babies because of the response you get to how how much how close it is how how much some of the um discussions around it are buried i spoke to four of my friends yesterday in fact who i've known for years and years and never had this conversation with one of them said that she tried to breastfeed for two weeks with both babies she said she absolutely hated it one said she had nipple shields she said they're like rubber sombreros on her nipples to get her through. One said her first baby needed to be fed on her left side. So on the

right breast she could cradle her. On the left side she had to hold her like a rugby ball against her side. And the fourth friend said that she had a C-section. She woke up to be semi-mummified, bound by bandages to stop her milk. This was 34 years ago. So lots of variety and experience there really

is as i suspect we're about to find out oh three seven hundred one hundred four four four is the number instagram at bbc woman's hour post your comments there we'll get some of those on air as well at bbc woman's hour on twitter as well and please do include a reference to our friends at bbc sheffield if you're a woman's hour listener and you want to tweet. This one is from Helen. She says, I'm expecting all callers to have a crying baby in the background for authenticity and to forget why they called in the first place. And if any of them claim to be up and showered by 10am,

do ask if they have help. Yeah, I want to emphasise we will take calls from people who haven't showered since Tuesday of last week. We also want to focus too, not just on the negatives, but on the positive. If you needed extra help, what kind of extra help did you need and when and from whom? And men, please do feel free to get involved as well. We need to talk to dads as well. Right, Paulette, over to you. You've got the first caller, I think.

Eleanor in Durham. So, Eleanor, good morning. Morning. Hiya. Hello. So you're an exclusive breastfeeder then? Yes. Explain how it went for you then. Had you planned to do that before your baby was born? No. I've got a son who's nearly four, Finlay, and a daughter, Luna, who's 15 months.

With Finlay, I didn't plan it that way at all um I was quite open to a mixture of different methods of feeding but knew that I would try to breastfeed him um but after about two weeks I just sort of took my cues from him he didn't want any expressed milk um we tried him with formula One. He didn't want that. Much to my mum's dismay because she was looking after him from quite an early stage when I went back to work. So I just then sort of really followed

my natural instincts with Finlay and he was actually exclusively breastfed up until my daughter Luna was born when he was two and a half. Right. So with her, I've consciously exclusively breastfed just because I thought of retrospectively looked upon all the benefits and kind of research what I was doing because it just seemed to be working so well for him um so I've consciously yeah exclusively

breastfed Luna was it easy was it easier with your your second child? I did some research with my mum. She had six children, Ellen. I haven't had any, but she had six. And so she's got quite a bit of experience. She said the second baby was easier. Did you find that? I think, yeah, I think because with my first, with Finley, you know, I had a couple of the books at hand, which were sort of quite scheduled and, you know, allow three hours between feeds and things like this. And when that wasn't happening, I was a little bit beating myself up. Whereas with Luna, I just, I literally, it was all baby led. And the routine was that there was no routine, you know, in terms of her feeding and did it all quite well still i'm doing it quite i suppose radically in a way

and that i'll i'll baby wear her and she'll breastfeed in that when we're out and about we bed share so she'll breastfeed as she wants through the night so in a way i think i took the pressure off myself um and so yeah i'd say it is easier yeah and i've got a friend who had a baby on saturday so brand new baby and she said she's really struggling. She thinks the baby may have jaundice. She's struggling for it to latch. What advice would you give her then, Eleanor? Jaundice, well, I mean, I don't claim to be any sort of an expert, but Finlay did actually have jaundice when he was born. And the doctor said that I sort of breastfed it away.

So I kept breastfeeding him and that did help with the jaundice. I'm not sure about the science as to how that works. I mean, what is she struggling with? Is it sort of... Latching, I think she said latching. Yeah. It's really hard. I just think persevere because I think when the baby gets it, they kind of just do it themselves.

And there's very little that you then need to do to help them with it once they've kind of got that. And I know it sounds easy for me to say when it's gone quite well. And I really, you know, I really do feel for people who want to do it and struggle. So my heart goes out to your friends. But I think that it is a biological expectation from the baby so i think that eventually if it's if it's permitted enough and if they're put to the breast enough i think they will just get it and they'll become quite expert at it themselves well eleanor thank you very much eleanor in durham telling us about her experience exclusive breastfeeder jane well it worked for

her um laura on twitter says breastfeeding is the hardest thing I've ever done. I was in agony 24-7 for the first eight weeks. My son had tongue tie, but I persevered and I ended up feeding my son for 16 months. And she says, by far, my greatest achievement in life. And I'm keen to mention this email from Bethan because I think she makes a good point. What saddened me about the breast versus bottle debate is exactly that, the word versus. Why does it have to be good versus bad, right versus wrong? Why can't we as women support each other to do what our babies need? Every mother is trying to do their very best. And I think actually what came out of the conversations we've been having this week on Woman's Hour is

that so many women do both. They bottle and they breastfeed. And it doesn't seem to be discussed all that much. Let's welcome Melanie in Bedford. Good morning to you, Melanie. Good morning. Hiya. Now tell me about what you've been doing. You are breastfeeding, but you express the milk. Yes, so I exclusively breastfeed.

I exclusively express. And I don't think it's very common. My daughter never managed to latch ever. So she never managed to take milk directly from the breast. So right at the start, when I was in hospital, I was hand expressing colost few days not because she was then able to feed just because I was so anxious about the whole thing that I stopped producing milk. I just, no milk was coming out because it was just such a horrible experience. I did receive a lot of support. I mean, the birth was normal, everything was fine but I was kept in hospital for three days, I think it was

simply because they didn't want to send me home until I was confident in hospital for three days I think it was simply because they didn't want to send me home until I was confident breastfeeding so I got a lot of support which I know a lot of women have been saying that they haven't got enough support I did but she just still didn't latch so I went home and tried to pump what I could give it to her and it was always sort of on the basis that I would pump until she managed to latch. There was never any information on how I could possibly keep it up, how I could exclusively pump. But I researched a little bit online and I found actually a lot of women do manage to exclusively pump. Right. I mean, Melanie, just in practical terms,

this is a colossal commitment, isn't it? Yes. And when I told a midwife, it was clearly not common because when you go to your midwife appointment and they ask you, so do you breastfeed or bottle feed? I just say breastfeed because that's what I do. Yeah, what do you do? Yeah, thank you you it's not always recognized uh but i have heard stories on for example my lifeline has been a facebook group

where there's just loads of exclusively pumping mums and they they have i've heard many anecdotes of midwives who say oh no you bottle feed and they'll take bottle feed oh my goodness okay kind of i mean you should record those meetings do you all sit around in a room with the pumps going all at the same time? I wish I knew any exclusively pumping mums in real life. I know of mum friends who say, yeah, I've got a friend who exclusively pumps, but I don't actually know anyone in real life. Just the great support network there is on Facebook and there's other ones as well. All right, Melanie, thank you. Really appreciate that.

I love this tweet from Catherine. Both my babies only fed from my light my left breast so it meant i always had one big boob and one little one there we are that's katherine right paulette katherine another katherine another tweet from another katherine asked nct breastfeeding session two hours holding a doll to my tit these are her words 10. Ten minutes about latch. Great deal of cooing about how natural and rewarding it is. Reality, she says. Breast pumps ringing colostrum out of me while I lay semi-conscious with multiple lines pumping stuff in so that I don't die. Now, that sounds horrific. Laura in Bedford, you wanted to breastfeed, but it didn't quite work out as you wanted to as you wanted it to initially

um yeah that's right i think i mean i've successfully managed to breastfeed both of my sons but i think as lots of people have been saying it's kind of that initial experience in hospital that stayed with me and the kind of lack of support that i had really um so with my first son I had an emergency section um and I knew that I kind of wanted to give breastfeeding a go um but it wasn't really properly established yet um and actually whilst I was sleeping um a midwife just gave him some formula without my permission so how did you feel then when you woke up yeah how did you think about that i was i was i was cross and kind of confused really and um it did take a while after that kind of to actually get things working properly and that was fine in the end um i ended up breastfeeding exclusively for kind of up to 16 months so that ended up being quite a positive

experience um but with my second son so I kind of went into hospital and I knew that I wanted to breastfeed again um and unfortunately I did have quite a traumatic birth experience so I tried to have a natural birth after having a section um and it went horrendously wrong um I ended up having a ruptured uterus and I have what's called a crash section where you're kind of rushed in for a general anesthetic. So after this, I kind of thought, well, I still want to breastfeed. I know that. So my son was in special care, so he wasn't with me. So I was kind of sat there trying to express colostrum. So I just found like getting somebody

to give me that basic support just to get somebody to provide something to express colostrum um so i just found like getting somebody to give me that basic support just to get somebody to um provide something to express the milk into or to reassure me that my son would actually and get that colostrum so you got that then did you get someone to help you laura did you get someone to offer you that support that you needed um well what happened the next day so i kind of woke up and i found that no it was still in the fridge it hadn't reached my son. And then my husband had been visiting my son in the special care ward and kind of came to her and said,

oh, the nurse is going to give him T-formula now. So I just said, oh, no, you know, not this again. Got him to kind of wheel me through to the ward, clutching these tubes of colostrum. So, I mean, the idea that you had to be pretty militant when you'd gone through a traumatic birth, people weren't necessarily listening to you. What would have made a difference then?

If another woman was in that position today, going through that, what would you like to see happen for her so that her experience wasn't as awful as yours was? I mean, I hate to say it because it's so difficult to get the resourcing. I mean, I just felt that both times, the aftercare, the wards felt very, very overstretched. And so actually accessing, I'm sure there are brilliant people out there, but I also found that kind of that experience of having had a section

and not being able to walk really for about six months, sorry, six weeks, both times around, meant that I just couldn't get to the local support group. So it was a lot of internet searching um that was the reality really um so in terms of what could help other people i mean it just has to be um more more funding and and i think just consistency i've heard other people say that they had really conflicting advice um i mean with my first son it was just hilarious really some of the kind of support I was getting

I had midwives milking me on the walls I had a health assistant standing there with a knitted breast and not really knowing what to do with it so I just think better better kind of consistent support really. Laura thank you very much for getting in touch with us talking about your experience there sounded pretty difficult pretty difficult, pretty full on. If you're listening and you'd like to get into it. No, to put it mildly. I can't even, I feel, you know, you feel someone's pain, really. Can't even imagine how that must have been.

To have to be so direct and forthright when you're going through such a traumatic time must have been awful for her. Jane? Yeah, okay. 03700 100 444. Absolutely. I completely agree with everything Paulette said there. This is a good point from Leah.

Personally, feeding my newborn didn't define my experience of motherhood. I do think this is spot on. It was important, undoubtedly, but so was skin to skin, bathing, colicky evenings. Making sure this precious human felt loved and secure was top of my agenda. There is more to motherhood than breastfeeding. And from Hannah, I've bottle fed one baby and breastfed the next.

There were highs and lows with both experiences, but the one thing that was the same is my babies were fed, loved, their needs were met, they were healthy and they thrived. And I read those two tweets just for the sake of somebody who's having a tough morning, perhaps had no sleep last night. It's freezing cold as well at the moment. It will pass.

This is only a part of your life and a very small part of theirs. Sarah, Sarah, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, your experience is a very particular one. Just explain what happened to you in 2012. So I had breast cancer and so I had to have chemotherapy and then a double mastectomy. Right. And you had, I mean, which is obviously you were around and not only that, but you had your first baby in 2015. Yeah, they wasn't sure when i

had the chemotherapy whether it would bring on um element of heart so the fact that i could have a baby at all was yeah pretty special but what happened in terms of feeding after the birth yeah so obviously i couldn't breastfeed um obviously because i had no breast um but i think with my experience it was the fact that i would constantly ask the question by various midwives so which frankly suggests they hadn't read your notes they haven't read my notes yes i mean i was a quite resilient person so it didn't upset me um but i had to explain my situation numerous times to various different midwives who just, yeah, simply not read the notes.

And I think if I had been more sensitive about the facts that I couldn't breastfeed, then it could have, you know, had quite an impact on me. Well, absolutely, Sarah. Thank you very much for making that point. And this is an email from a listener called Belinda who says, I use a wheelchair due to a spinal cord injury which left me paralysed from the chest down

at nipple level being able to breastfeed my twin daughters meant that I could feed and comfort them at any time and place I can't imagine how I would have coped with having to sterilise bottles and make up formula for two 24-7

I cannot emphasise enough, these efforts that mothers make are truly heroic and we don't acknowledge that often enough. Anyway, Paulette. I think that's part of it for me, Jane, that I'm seeing a side of motherhood here and the initial stages of a baby's life that I've never really had access to before.

So I've got friends, they're very close friends, we've talked about lots of things, but sometimes sometimes women and I noticed one of the earlier callers was actually a little bit saying well you know what I know people work hard, I know the NHS do their best despite the fact that she had quite a difficult experience. So I think sometimes we kind of delete it from our memories but in a sense we do need to discuss it so that something can be done about it and things can change. I am convinced that if men were to give birth there would be annual award ceremonies for the best birth, the best feeder, I mean you can imagine what it would be like. Anyway you're absolutely right so we've got another caller haven't we? Sorry I interrupted. We have got another caller, I've got a tweet from a man

here actually, we do need to talk about Daniel, he's got in touch, he says that he thinks we so often talk about the importance of breastfeeding, but neglect to think about the mother. Many mothers, he says, struggle with breastfeeding, but feel pressured into continuing. This affects mental health, bond with baby and relationship with partner. Tom also has tweeted as he says we can have more discussion about the support available to help women that want to breastfeed. We need to talk about that more, he says. My wife and I sought support from more than 10 different experts across two hospitals before our little boy got it. Michelle's got in touch in a band.

Good morning, Michelle. Good morning. So you want to talk about the importance of support, which is a little bit what Tom was, well, Tom and Daniel were talking about that there. What do you want to say about that? Oh, yeah, well, I think actually it's great, a man getting in touch, because men can just be like husbands, partners, children, the best advocates too, just really supporting your partner at such a precious, difficult time. Yeah, with my experience, with my first, I said I was 19, so probably overwhelmed with life, but yeah, I had a really difficult time breastfeeding him didn't feel like I got an awful

lot of support um so ended up stopping quite early on probably around the month margin and then with my second you know 11 years later it's a bit more life experience was quite okay kind of going into it thinking I'll give it a try if it doesn't work out I'm not going to feel guilty like I did right let's talk about this guilt then if you don't mind because this is one of the things that came out of um you know part of the big discussion we've been having this week is the effect on women's emotions when they don't get to do what they want to do however they want to feed their babies how did that show itself to you then, Michelle? How did that affect you and your baby's relationship or your life in general?

Well, do you know, it's quite funny because he's 13, hurting 14 now and he's a big breastfeeding advocate. He watched the Dispatches show, which was wonderful. I don't know if anyone's mentioned it. It was breastfeeding uncovered. Great tale. But yeah,

watching that, he was really involved in the conversation he was like was i breastfed well you know why didn't it work out and i think you know i felt really awful and he was good he was like oh well don't you know don't don't worry i'm fine i'm here now all's well but yeah and it certainly did actually what was funny i was saying i had another son and you know breastfeeding went really well but on the third initially on the third day where i really struggled which quite often the time people people do when your milk comes in i am i was struck with the same feelings again they just exactly after all this time which is incredible isn't it yeah you know when you're sitting

two three in the morning with a child that's not latching on and your wits end, it's a really dark place. Michelle, it really is. Actually, I keep hearing that WhatsApp groups help that a lot of women get together when they've got very new babies and talk in the middle of the night. Yeah, absolutely

the best. My local service were amazing and on that first visit they did say you know no matter what time it is give us a call we'll have a chat and I did six o'clock in the morning gave them the phone and they came to visit that morning I said it was fine everything went well they popped in three more times that day just to check all was going well which made a difference. Now there is a breastfeeding group I'm still part of i'm still feeding two two years later um and they are brilliant they provide so much information on the things that

you know don't get mentioned enough like the status what happens when you get that which can be awful about the difference with hind and for milk there's just a whole myriad of things that you you don't know about. You're becoming a bit of an encyclopedia yourself, Michelle. You're making sounds of things, aren't you? Thank you for getting it. I did end up doing peer support training, which I think is so crucial too. If anyone is struggling, look up local peer support groups.

They are wonderful. Chatting to other mothers, they can really help you face some dark times. Michelle, thank you very much for joining us. That's a good thing, actually. If you've got any tips, any support that you got while you were feeding your baby, however you decided to do it, get in touch with us. We're talking about breastfeeding. We're talking about feeding our babies in general.

You can give us a call. We're on 03700 100 444. Jane, have you got another caller? I have. I just want to say that listeners to Radio 4 will be able to enjoy the drama at 22.11. But if you want to carry on listening to the phone-in and the subject, obviously, Feeding Your Baby Today, you can listen to it on BBC Radio Sheffield. And to do that, go to the BBC Sounds app.

You'll see all the stations and the schedules on the homepage. Just scroll down to Radio Sheffield. Or, of course, you can get the podcast a little bit later on which will have the whole hour in that pod. To Derbyshire and Jessica. Hi Jessica. Now our earlier caller there, the one you just heard, well was talking

about the tough times through the night and first thing in the morning and you know a bit about that. Well, exactly. Go on, tell me. I'm dancing in front of the Jung Peru at the moment to entertain my seven-month-old so hear him and yeah i wanted to ring in it's something i feel really passionately about because i always wanted to breastfeed and my mum breastfed my sister breastfed and there's always something that i had in my plan um a couple of friends that had babies that have

had tongue tie so when i was in hospital i did say to the pediatrician can you have a really good look and just make sure he hasn't got tongue tie and said no no he hasn't he's sticking his tongue out and the health visitor also said he didn't but he just could not get him to latch on at all um they wouldn't let me go home from hospital because i said i wanted to breastfeed and he couldn't latch and Just getting quite a lot of mixed messages. So they said you're going to have to cup feed him, which is like a little medicine cup. It took about 45 minutes.

And they can sip from a cup? Yeah, they can sip from a cup. Yeah, I'd never heard of it before. The only problem with that is it's not very comforting for them and it's not something that you can do in the long term. So after being at home for a couple of days i started pumping and um talking up with formula but it wasn't until a six to eight week check that the health visitor the same one that said he didn't have tongue tie and came back and said oh actually he does have tongue tie but it's at the back of his um tongue so at that point we they said well

our local hospital we have to have three assessments before they even consider having it snipped which would mean like potentially four appointments by this time he's like nine weeks so we had to drive all the way down to Birmingham right you're making it sound relatively easy Jessica how were you feeling oh no it wasn't easy at all. I was really, really upset about it. I felt so guilty. I was literally pumping every three hours, then on a 24-hour cycle to then bottle feed him that milk. And it was absolutely exhausting. It was horrible. I think I got to the point where I just thought, you know, if I can get to eight weeks with Jabs

and get him breast milk in him, then I'll feel okay. But actually, as soon as we had the tongue tie cut, he latched on straight away and now we breastfeed. But, you know, we didn't have to go through all of that nine weeks of stress and, you know, I think

now, with knowledge, I could sort of argue my case a bit more but of course professionals around you well you're so vulnerable um let's give the lad a name check because i can hear him in the background there don't apologize teddy yeah he's in his jumperoo jumping around around. But I think he loves breastfeeding now. But I think it's just that about the whole... And actually, looking back, I would be a lot kinder to myself. I think that'd be advice I'd give myself. Well, make sure you keep this podcast,

because when he's the Prime Minister in 30 or 40 years' time, he'll love to hear this. He'll listen to this, Jane. He's going to be a feminist. Don't worry about it. Oh, excellent. The work's gone in. That's one down anyway good yeah exactly um take care of yourself thank you jessica bye bye oh she sounds

like she's been through the mill doesn't she but coming out the other side it does yeah we've got a fist an air punch if that's what you call it from laura she's caught in touch talking about uh tongue tie she says that after baby breast milk breakfast, she says, had tongue tied fix last week, now latching and feeding well, not causing blisters or pain. Tough journey, definitely less support since last baby born six years ago. This is quite a crucial one, actually. She says that cuts have affected resources to support women breastfeeding, which is a little bit worrying in light of the fact that we're saying that there is a massive issue there. We do need to do something about it. It's a general thing that we need to talk about more and sort of act on.

The fact that cuts are happening is slightly worrying. You know, we're kind of getting the results. That's trickling down the feelings of that. Anne's in North Devon. So, Anne, you are saying that you still feel the trauma 28 years after you tried to feed your your baby how did it work for you then how are you feeling now well if i get a bit weepy here just bear with me because it does still stir up a lot of emotion um i was the youngest of eight children and my mother successfully

breastfed us all so i didn't think there would be any problem with breastfeeding but when my first son was born there was a problem he we just couldn't get him to latch on and every nurse and the maternity unit tried to get him to latch on and then one of the nurses made a joke and said what do you call an Irish baby that can't suck I repeated my son's name so this joke went all around the paternity unit and I've just felt such a failure

I felt, I had no confidence so I laughed along with the nurses and I don't think they thought the damage that they were doing but after i just used to hide when i bottle fed my son i was so ashamed that i couldn't breastfeed and when my second son came i didn't even try because i was terrified of feeling again you said you had some counseling for that and how did that did that help

you at all well it did i had counseling after my second son was born because i started feeling really angry that i couldn't feed him and um i had six months i went to my doctor one day and just broke down he said i think this is something that you really need to talk about so I did I had six months counseling you know I have been fine and I was just listening to the program yesterday kind of stirred it all up again I thought I had dealt with it I thought I was fine and I thought it'd be fine you know talking this morning but when you're when the earlier call came I just felt really shaky but i can still remember it in the ward you know this whole joke what do you call an irish baby that doesn't suck

them when they said my son's name i can still see the midwife i'd love to meet her now i think what's great about you today and what's great about you is that you've got on the phone and you've had this conversation and you've talked in a way that will help women who are listening to this now and families and men who are working with their partners to feed their babies. It's a brave thing to get

on the radio and you've done that. And you should feel very proud of that this morning. Thanks. And I just hope it helps because I'm sure none of them midwives, they were all gorgeous. I'm sure they didn't even realise the impact of what they were saying at the time.

Anne, thank you. And Paulette's absolutely right. Very brave thing to do. Actually, this is important from Catherine on Twitter. I breastfed my three kids until they were 12 months old. I feel my partner missed out on the baby feeding bond

and I know he'd have liked to do the night feed, but I really didn't want to pump my milk just so he could feed our babies. I'm not sure now if that was a bit selfish. Well, no, I think you're being a bit hard on yourself there, Catherine, but I see your point. Interesting. Sam, Sam is a man.

Sam, good morning to you. Good morning, hi. Now, you've see your point. Interesting. Sam, Sam is a man. Sam, good morning to you. Good morning. Hi. Now, you've got four children. So tell us, tell us what, actually, your wife's in hospital now, I understand. Yeah, with one of our newest. So we've got a five-year-old, three-year-old and twin boy who are just six months now. Right.

One of the twins is in hospital because he's been struggling with his feeding. This one has been pretty much bottle fed, whereas his twin brother has been mostly breastfed up until about a month ago. So twins, but fed differently. Yep. Because? I guess when we went into hospital,

the first time my wife had gone into into labour naturally and everything was going swimmingly and then it ended up being a crash C-section. And yeah, under general, that was all a bit up in the air. And my wife tried to breastfeed both of them. And she did to begin with, with sort of a little form of the top up. They weren't seem to be getting happy. But then, yeah, one just got on better than the other. And he continued to, Arthur continued to press feed,

whereas Harry then just pretty much went on to bottles. But yeah, Harry's lately sort of developed a real bottle aversion and we've really been struggling to get it in. He'd been having other feeding problems as well, we think with allergies. And he had tongue tie sorted last week and kind of everything sort of came to a head over the weekend yeah we just got him admitted so he's been seen by the doctors well i'm glad that he's been admitted and it looks like help will be on

the way and everything will be sorted out but can i ask you a brief question about that bonding that katherine mentioned that she didn't want to pump milk just so her husband could do a bit of the night-time bonding thing is it is it hard let's hear from the perspective of fathers is it difficult when breastfeeding is happening and you do feel a bit pushed out um I suppose not really because our first two um as much as my wife tried uh she couldn't exclusively breastfeed either of those and the first one one was really hard work because she'd had from the midwife team everyone can breastfeed there's no reason not to

and you know she really struggled with that emotionally and everything but by the time the second one came along she was happy to do the combination feeding so that's what worked and so that's what we did but yeah for me i guess

having the first children is very different to having the twins because the twins you know pretty much i always have a baby as well um and uh so i've kind of been happy and it's yeah it's been an experience for me because i've been doing a lot more night feeds um a lot more helping in general because i sort of work at home so i can sort of nip in if needed and stuff like that um yeah so it's kind of been i guess i feel i've had much more of a mum experience this time around right because yeah my wife would be doing that i think you know i might get up before and just quickly make up a bottle and stuff like that but i'd be straight back to sleep whereas now like you know i'm getting up helping the baby get settled all that sort of stuff sam thank you um not the greatest line

but we wish the very best to your wife and to your baby in hospital and on Twitter Lauren says my baby's five weeks old, breastfeeding has been one of the hardest things and nobody prepared me for it, you're just told it's natural and right so you do feel incredibly guilty

that you're struggling or not enjoying it it makes you feel like a bad mother. Lauren, if you take anything away from this programme today, it should be, I hope, that you are by no means a bad mother. Do not tell yourself you are. And I'm sorry nobody prepared you for it because it is tough. The sleep deprivation alone is tough. Never mind everything else.

Right, Paulette. We haven't heard much, I don't think, from women who intended to bottle feed and who did bottle feed exclusively. And I wonder whether that is because they feel a little bit embarrassed about that or they don't feel that they want to share that. I would love to hear from a woman who's

been in that position, who is in that position. Well, I don't want to be unfair to them because I agree with you. Can I just read this tweet? I did both, says Nat, with different children. There are many ways in which formula feeding is more convenient than breastfeeding. Breastfeeding can be lovely, but it's not the most natural thing in the world. My breastfed baby is now eight and her formula fed big brothers are all happy and healthy. So there you go and I agree with you Paulette, I do worry slightly that people who wanted to bottle feed and did so successfully are reluctant to express that. Well they shouldn't be. Yeah you can talk to us 03700 100 444

BBC Radio Sheffield and Radio 4 Women's Hour. I'm Paulette Jane Garvey as well. We're talking to, we want to talk to you so get in touch with us to share your story. Elisa has got in touch she's in north london elisa you're going to give us a very positive experience are you this morning another one um uh it's kind of a mixed experience i think it's slightly unusual um basically what

happened was um i had my son and i he latched on absolutely fine and breastfeeding was great and i bonded with him great but unfortunately i got quite severe postnatal depression quite quickly so whilst I was breastfeeding I then went to the doctor to get antidepressants and they told me that there was one particular antidepressant that was fine so I continued on that but unfortunately I continued to be rather ill and up until about four months I just persevered and persevered with breastfeeding because it was going fine but basically what I really needed was sleeping pills and when I went to the doctor they said they basically just looked in a book with any drugs and they just kind of looked in the book and saw if it was okay

to breastfeed with the drug so it felt like they didn't really know um and so in the end i went on season pills because i had to um but i've since found out that actually you can well i'm not a doctor so i'm not going to say this is for everybody but from my understanding you can breastfeed later in the day if you've had um if you've taken a season pill at night and i wish i'd known that at the time did you feel like you had an army did your midwife want to offer you some support how did that work for you um it was it was quite uh my midwife um not really because i mean i once i left the hospital i wasn't really in touch with them my health sister was nice but she didn't and i felt like she didn't entirely understand what was going on. It wasn't really until sort of a bit later on when I'd gone to some support groups and stuff that I started to feel a bit better.

But I still feel guilty about giving up breastfeeding. Because most people who I hear who give up or who stop have to stop um it's due to not you know problems with the baby and with baby latching and with me it wasn't you know that wasn't the problem so i'm quite sad about that well it's interesting that you've got in touch with us to talk to us today because that perspective is an interesting one and i'm sure it's one that other women have experienced so thank you very much for getting in touch to share that with us um this morning it's it's something that we'd like to talk to a little bit more about and we will continue obviously the discussion uh jane you need to um have a little bit of time away from us for a

moment make my excuses and leave is that what you're saying well i want to come back just you know go out nip out nip back nip out i'd love a coffee by the way if anyone's listening outside yes we're about to hand over to Radio 4 Continuity, but I have got a couple of seconds to fill, so that's brilliant. And actually, we have been predictably inundated with emails this morning, for which I'm really, really grateful. And it's just worth saying that views are coming in all shapes and sizes. And I really want to emphasise what Paulette said earlier

about the formula feeding thing. I have had children and I both bottle and breastfed. And I honestly, truly do not believe that I'm remotely unusual in that. And I don't think there should be any shame in saying so. And frankly, I stopped the breastfeeding because I was exhausted. And I wanted to do things like go out. And I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. So please do keep your thoughts and your emails

and everything else coming. Instagram, you can post a comment there as well, at BBC Women's Hour and on Twitter too. And please, somebody somewhere must do that PhD on women and guilt post-childbirth because it's something that somebody really needs to explore. Right, you're listening to BBC Radio 4. If you want to carry on listening to The Woman's Hour Phone-In,

you can do so via BBC Radio Sheffield. Go to the BBC Sounds app and search all stations and you'll find Radio Sheffield. Here's Charles Carroll. There we are. It's all done and dusted, Paulette. We're back. Oh, that's wonderful. So, it would have been nice to spend a little bit more time with the last caller i must be honest uh but we're going to talk to nicole now nicole carver in hampshire jane okay hello nicole how are you yes i'm good thank you how are you yeah not too

bad at all now uh well i've got a cold um oh sorry i can't believe i give over with that cold oh shut up believe it just you're just an unfeeling northerner. That's what you are, Paulette. Mind you, so am I. So there you go. So, Nicole, your baby is how old now? She's 11 weeks now. Oh, my goodness. Okay. They always say things...

Yeah, still in the new stages. Right. Well, 12 weeks is the cut-off point where things start to really improve. Yes. Okay. So how was it at the beginning for you? At the beginning, it was... I mean, there's no beating around the bush it was just dreadful

feeding her I just used to dread every time she'd cry for milk I just thought not again because I was I had a caesarean with her so I was in hospital for a few days with her and so obviously there was midwives

on call all the time which was a blessing but I just kept saying to them I said it's really painful And so obviously there was midwives on call all the time, which was a blessing. But I just kept saying to them, I said, it's really painful to feed my baby. It's really, really hurting. And I said it to multiple midwives as well. It wasn't like it was just one in particular. And I kept saying, could you please check the latch? Or, you know, it's so painful.

And they go, oh, well, it will hurt when you first put them on. know you're a new mum you know you'll toughen up soon it's you know it's just all very new and it's my first baby so I had nothing to compare it to and I came home and it was just so so bad but in the end I went along to a breastfeeding support group and I just said I just can't do this anymore and um they were like oh my goodness why have you been allowed to continue feeding like this because by that point I was all blistered up and stabbed and they were like it's obvious she's tongue-tied and no one has thought to check in the hospital when I was mentioning it so without being fatuous it wasn't that obvious, was it? Or people just hadn't, it had never crossed anybody's mind to check? Nobody had ever said, you know, oh, you know, should we have a look in her mouth?

Should we look at tongue tie as an option? Because they all just kept saying, no, her latch is fine. It will hurt, you know, the first few sucks will hurt. But you'll get used to it so you know like i say just being a first-time mum you think okay it's probably just me and after getting her tongue cut she is a completely different feeding baby you say tongue cut that sounds quite unpleasant what happens um i mean they they literally do cut her tongue it was so distressing oh it must have been handing over my brand new baby to go and send her to get cut um but it's just that i don't know how to

describe it the bottom bit of their tongue is like attached you've got that like stringy bit of your tongue bit of sinew yeah yeah and it's um it was too thick and she couldn't lift her tongue up. It was just stuck to the bottom of her mouth pretty much, so she couldn't latch on properly. They just snip it and it loosens their tongue. Nicola, to the other tweeter whose tweet I read out, just saying actually, I think her name was Laura, forgive me if I've got that wrong,

but just that nobody had prepared her for how difficult these days and weeks might be. Had anyone prepared you, Nicole? No, not really. I mean, I don't think you can ever prepare someone, but I completely underestimated it. And like I say, I had a cesarean with her as well, and you're never prepared for the recovery of that.

That completely took me by surprise, how long it would take to recover from that, let alone throwing that into the mix of the sleep deprivation, the feeding and just the constant feeding. You don't realise how much time that will take up because that in itself is tiring. Well, you've turned a corner. Yeah, I do feel like we can you know see the horizon now so

especially like I say the tongue tie I wish you know I want to get more people aware of that yeah yeah but it's not always just the latch or the baby or anything it could be a tongue tie as well because she's like I say she's so much better now and it you know I am starting to enjoy it now feeding her Nicole well congratulations to you by the way we should have said that right at the start it's uh it's wonderful to have a happy and healthy little girl so congratulations to you and it'll soon be spring you'll be in the park having an ice cream and daffodils will be out and all the rest of it right thank you very much my friend says that you need a decent anorak actually if you've got a baby in the spring or in the autumn or the winter to take it for a walk but she says she bought an anorak

for the first time in her life when she had a baby what's wrong with anoraks i'm feeling nothing nothing at all a wide selection i was going to talk about call the midwife i'm a huge fan of call the midwife and mum can't watch it she said and i think it's because she's had six children but i thought it was pretty brutal i'm to some of these messages, some of these conversations today, I'm thinking, actually, it's pretty full on, the whole experience of childbirth. How much has changed, we ask ourselves. Well, it's a good time, actually, to talk to Eileen. Eileen's in the London area.

She's a retired midwife, aren't you, Eileen? Yes, I am. And listening to this this morning, what's it feeling like for you? I'm feeling quite enraged because I started my nurse training and then midwifery training when Bevan after Bevan set up the health service and all of this sadly is a result of the cuts in the actual support which is now given to mothers due to cuts in funding. As a midwife, we took great pride in the fact that we looked after the mother all the way through, that we made sure that the mother was comfortable in starting breastfeeding, and that we didn't really leave her unless we were

satisfied that she was able to cope. So I'm feeling quite emotional about this. Nobody seems to understand, or people do understand, of course, but they don't acknowledge the massive life change it is to have a baby and how you need support. What about formula in that equation then, Eileen? Well, of course, if mothers really don't want to breastfeed, then, of course, I don't believe that anybody should interfere with that. Then they can have advice about formula.

But most mothers actually do want to breastfeed and it's that initial care that makes all the difference now apparently mothers are turned out of hospital after just a few hours well how can you really say that that mother's had any support at all in hospital we always had a patient stayed in until they were over the birth and then they got help and support about breastfeeding. And when they went home, even if they went home within a few days, there was somebody at home, the district midwife, to call in and see and make sure they were looked after for about a fortnight afterwards.

When you watch something like Call the Midwife then, what do you think, Eileen? Can you bear to watch it? Oh, I do. I enjoy watching it. When you watch something like Call the Midwife then what do you think Eileen? Can you bear to watch it? Oh I do, I enjoy watching it and I do realise that those were the conditions in those days and it's quite heartwarming to have that kind of programme And before you go I just want to ask you

advice, Hannah's got into it she says she's breastfed exclusively loved it, the bond you have is amazing she says, I'm currently trying to get him though on the bottle a little bit and he'll not take it. Very stressful, she says. She says, I've been crying about it because I'm so upset.

So it's kind of a slightly different perspective, this, isn't it? In fact, she said she cried a lot about it yesterday. She said she'd like to be able to leave him with her parents for an afternoon so that she can have a bit of time doing other things. But she says that she doesn't feel her health workers are talking about this part of it. What you say to her eileen oh well her mother has to be looked after as well and really after she'd been breastfeeding feeding for some time she certainly does need to get out and actually feel like a separate human being as well so i would say they

should be helping her and that maybe a little breastfeeding and then a little bottle feeding and changing a bit so the child gradually gets used to the bottle feeding. There are methods of helping. So I just feel very upset to hear people are not helping her. Perhaps they're not fully qualified because now there's been some sort of downgrading of staff. And even now with the nursing associates being introduced for instance in hospitals the whole idea is to get cheaper labor and i'm very disturbed about the whole picture of the privatization of the health service which is affecting all of the services they provide all right a wider look at it eileen thank you very much for joining us she's a

retired midwife at bbc radio sheff, we're talking to you about your baby feeding experience. Jane Garvey's with me from Woman's Hour, Radio 4. Who have you got to talk to, Jane? first son very difficult when I wanted my life back but I still feel guilty there's that word again and it's 20 years ago I weaned them on organic homemade food to make up for it ha ha says Diane which I quite like and I love this from another this is Diana in fact on email my daughter breastfed my grandson until he was about three and able to talk one day he looked up from the breast and said, it's so tasty. Just love that because that's the truth, no doubt. Right, who are we going to talk to now? It's Catherine in Bristol. Good morning to you, Catherine.

Hello. Right, you've breastfed both your two young children and you're a GP, so this is your field. Tell us. Yes, we're listening to all of the other women and I just wanted to firstly say that having been through it myself and having lots of friends that have gone through it, I absolutely hear the need for more support

and I think it can be an incredibly challenging time. But I wanted to add in the professional kind of view of it as well and I think that it can be very mixed in terms of people's knowledge on it. But I almost wonder whether we need to see the whole feeding in the same way that if we went to see our GP about another health issue, that we would then refer them on to a consultant as a specialist. And I think actually we need to think about feeding in that way. And if you are not getting that support from either your health visitor or your midwife, yes, they have a lot of knowledge.

But they're also dealing with a lot of other issues. And actually, if you're struggling, you need to see somebody who is a specialist in feeding. And that's what I did for myself when I was having difficulties. And I think a lot of my friends did and that was the only point at which they then felt that they and I could feel confident in what we were doing. Sure I mean I'm glad that somebody like you a GP has come on to express this because one of our previous callers was 24 was a young mum and felt frankly slightly out of her depth and who wouldn't but you're saying that even somebody with your knowledge still found it difficult and you still needed the help yeah absolutely and i mean one thing as a gp was that before i had children i made sure that i

hopefully made sure that i always ensure that the woman was feeling supported in whatever her decision was i think it's so important to think of the mental health think of that guilt that you can feel but i don't think i was fully aware until i'd had a child and was trying to feed them of all of the other aspects as well and i think that's where seeing a feeding support specialist is so vital. And it may be that if you are a mum and you're struggling with the feeding, you find a GP who is maybe young female, has gone through it recently,

or you find a midwife that's the same and they can tell you about the local support specialist. Yeah, if indeed they exist, Catherine. Thank you very much. I think that's probably an element of the old postcode lottery about this. Anita has emailed to take me to task, actually. Jane has just said she gave up breastfeeding so she could go out.

Well, I did. It was a somewhat throwaway remark. But anyway, there's an element of truth in it, I've got to be honest. Anita points out one huge benefit of breastfeeding is that you can take your baby out anywhere without needing to prepare bottles. I took mine to dinner parties, concerts and shopping. Listening to you being dismissive Well done! And into the eyes of a man who looked distinctly unimpressed. Anyway.

I didn't have glasses to protect him then. I don't think he was expecting it, Paulette, to be honest. I mean, I laugh about it now, but trust me, it wasn't funny at the time. I bet it wasn't. I bet it wasn't. A couple of messages here. A dad got in touch. He says, message from midwives that is still common but is not true. All women can breastfeed. Breastfeeding, says this dad, is the only biological process that we expect to have 100% success rate at.

Natural is overused to mean easy or best. It's a good point, that. I wanted to breastfeed my first baby, says this message, but neither of us could get it to work. Felt very guilty. Still do. Tried and failed. This is, you know, something that repeats itself in these conversations. We bottle fed, says this message.

With my second baby, I decided I wasn't going to try to breastfeed and put the two of us through it. I was going to bottle feed and this time I was going to own it. So important, however, that you feed your baby. We must not feel ashamed, says this message. We fed our babies. I love that, actually. I really love that. We must not feel ashamed, says this message. We fed our babies. I love that, actually. I really love that. We cannot emphasise that enough.

You fed your baby, your baby's here, your baby's doing well. Anna's got in touch. Anna's in Norwich. And you want to kind of continue this. We fed our babies. We did the best we could. We've done the best we could.

Don't you, Anna? Hello. Thank you so much for having me on. I've got to say that actually loads of people have just made lots of points that I had wanted to make so thank you to that father and to Catherine the GP and Eileen an amazing voice of calm

really I have to say. I had twins and I've got to be honest I did sort of go into it with my eyes shut I was very large and very tired and missed all the antenatal classes. Breastfeeding was the one I didn't want to miss, didn't know what was coming my way. And it really was just a monster, monster affair. I'm quite a small person and actually all the sort of ideas that you can take your breast to your baby's mouth

didn't actually work for me physically. So actually being able to hold the children in place and get this child that was lifting its tongue and had had enough of being manhandled was a complete nightmare. It really was a nightmare. I did stick with it but it was not without cost. Yes and you know we talked about sombreros and things to put on your nipples to make things easier. My friend said had she not had those, she would have not got through. What do you think was the one thing, Anna, that got you through? I have to say that the team at the hospital were very, very sweet.

But there were, I don't know how many different ladies who have milked my bosoms, really, to be quite honest. I did spend all the time. There should be a bit of pride in that, Anna time there should be a bit of pride in that anna there should be a bit of pride yeah if i was a youtuber or something then the idea of me being double uh double um breath pumped was really quite funny um maybe not at the time i'm not sure i don't know um but it i think it is just so important that people sort of get to the idea that, A, exactly what the father was saying isn't something that's just going to happen. B, not only are women all different, but actually the babies are different. I had two babies.

You know, one did get really into it. The other never really did. And it's really hard. And so certainly from my point of view, somebody who was more than one child at the time, when you mess it up, you mess it up twice. And that responsibility feels immense. But they're all right now. But they're all right now.

We need to stick with that. And I have to say, it's been so brilliant to hear you all saying all those things. And I know I'm not the only person in the world here who says thank you. Anna in Norwich, lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much for having a chat with us this morning. Jane? I'm going to try and squeeze in Anne in Glasgow, Anne good morning to you because your experiences were a bit mixed your experiences

They were yes, I have five children, my first baby was a very agitated baby, did not like breastfeeding at all after eight days, ended up at local maternity hospital at 4am in the morning with the midwife crying saying you've got so much milk

but I just had had enough switched to bottle feeding interestingly she doesn't like bottle feeding either, she still is a girl who won't even drink water the midwife who came to the house reluctantly gave me nipple shields and said don't tell anyone I've given you

those, the second experience the babies were close together, the memory was so bad from the first, I didn't persevere for that reason, the third time I had postnatal depression I had a midwife who'd said don't feel guilty about giving up she said your baby's been fed, a good

message from today's phone in this is about your mental health and the mental health of your family. And it wasn't actually until I had my fourth child who has a severe learning disability, was in hospital for six days, and one of the breastfeeding counsellors came in. He has Down syndrome.

It was very important that he fed. She just looked at me and said, what are you trying to do? She said, has no one ever told me that, you know, your baby needs to be rugby? You know, almost like a rugby ball under your arm. I don't want to put words into your mouth, but a specialist help,

somebody who knew their business and did it brilliantly, was able to help you? Yeah, a big teaching hospital in Glasgow who I know now that the woman is very experienced. She's a professional and that expert helped.

Then I went on to feed my fifth baby as well both number four and number five for over a year but as i said to your researcher the feeling of guilt i had and i still kind of had i just maybe one to three that's awful it's just terrible that you feel that way thank you so much um that's Anne in Glasgow. Well, that was the final caller on the programme today in cooperation with BBC Radio Sheffield. And I was sorry we didn't have longer to talk to Anne because it's significant, I think, that it was the birth of her child with Down syndrome and the specialist help that she got in hospital that allowed her to breastfeed successfully, to establish it and to keep it going. So an interesting point of view that and I'm glad we got on to the programme. Thank you to everybody

who tweeted and posted on Instagram and emailed the programme and of course called in, whoever they were, wherever they were, we are really, really grateful to all of them. Tomorrow on Woman's Hour, what does it do to a teenager to carry a terrible family secret alone? That's on the programme tomorrow. Thank you very much for listening today. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.