Woman's Hour - Yvette Cooper on Raneem's Law, Porn review, Andi and Charlotte Osho, Lucia Keskin

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper is calling for 'Raneem’s Law' in memory of a 22-year-old woman who was stabbed to death by her ex-husband. Raneem Oudeh spoke to police five times in less than two hours before her ex-husband killed her and her mother Khaola Saleem in 2018. One of Labour’s proposals is for domestic abuse specialists in 999 control rooms so that victims speak to an expert from their first call. Emma speaks to Yvette Cooper in her first broadcast interview on the issue and also to Raneem’s aunt, Nour Norris, who is backing the proposals.In a new Woman’s Hour series we want to start an honest conversation about how the availability and content of porn affects what we do, how we feel and what we expect from sex and relationships. Today we begin by speaking to the woman leading the Independent Pornography Review for the government looking at the legislative and regulatory framework around pornography. The Conservative peer Baroness Gabby Bertin joins Emma in the studio.Last July comedian, actor and author Andi Osho joined spoke to us about her second novel, Tough Crowd. During the interview Andi revealed she was also editing her mother’s memoirs – a legacy for her three children. Charlotte Osho has now published The Jagged Path and she joins Emma along with her editor/daughter Andi.A new sitcom called Things You Should Have Done starts on the 29th February on BBC Three. It follows Chi, who's parents have died and has to learn how to fend for herself. It was written by comedian Lucia Keskin, who also stars as Chi. She joins Emma to talk about the series and where her inspiration came from.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. It started at the weekend with the revelation that three female MPs have been given bodyguards and chauffeur-driven cars amid growing concerns about politicians' safety. We don't know who they are, but they are apparently from both the Labour and Conservative benches, these three women. The move comes after a recent increase in the threat level faced by MPs

and the fears that politicians could be targeted by extremists because of the Israel-Gaza war. Now we learn that MPs will get millions more for their own security. That's what the Home Office announced overnight. Well, shortly I'll be talking to the Shadow Home Secretary, Labour's Yvette Cooper. What's been inferred is that this £31 million pot could mean more MPs getting close protection bodyguards and security at Friday surgeries. The Home Office will not give a breakdown of what this budget is going towards in detail, but some of the money will also be for protecting the UK's democratic processes from disruption. Bodyguards and security, all for voicing opinions and voting on policies for all of us. This is now the reality for the UK's MPs.

And I wanted to ask you this morning what you made of that. Protection from us, the general public. There is an exodus of MPs at the soon-to-be general election. And I noticed, especially when female MPs come onto this programme, like the outgoing Conservative MP, Tracey Crouch, last week, they are keen to walk this fine line

between saying how much they feel, as she did say, it's changed politics for the worse since she came in, in terms of the abuse and specifically towards women, and that we want a parliament with 50% female representation. So not wanting to put women off and not wanting to put anyone off and yet being honest about the reality of being a politician

elected on behalf of us to try to make this country as good as it can be. You know, to put it in a basic sense, that's hopefully what the goal is. When you hear about this additional money, this money coming, sorry, in this direction, I should say, for security for MPs, in light of the events in the Middle East and also some extra risk that has been perceived by those who do the risk evaluation, what is your view? What is your reaction to that? The number is 84844.

As I said, this started with the revelation at the weekend around women, three female MPs having additional security. Would you ever be an MP? Would you go into politics? Is this something that perhaps drives you more towards it because you think actually it's showing a failure of dialogue and a failure of people being able to perhaps be as reasonable as they can be. Or does it drive you completely in the other direction? Democracy is really at stake and we are expecting an election certainly to be announced soon, whether that's towards the end of the year or the very beginning of next year.

On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email me through our website. You can send a WhatsApp message or voice note with the number 03700 100 444 or just watch those data charges. And if you want to get in touch about anything you hear on the programme, please use those same numbers. Also on today's programme, the comedian Andy Osho and her mother Charlotte.

Remarkably, they're now closer than ever, having worked on Charlotte's memoir. Would you and your mother thrive during such a project? What have you worked on with your mum? Well, apart from your birth. And how did that project go? Not necessarily the birth, you might not remember that. And the start of a new Woman's Hour series on pornography

and what it's really doing to our lives. The woman leading the independent pornography review will be here, plus the comedian and actor Lucia Keskin will also be joining me in the studio. All that to come. But first, joining me in the studio. All that to come. But first, joining me in the studio, straight at the top of the programme, as I mentioned, the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper. Shortly, Yvette, I'll be coming to your proposals regarding a law change,

very important to you and the work that you've been doing to address the way domestic violence is dealt with in 999 police control rooms. But can I just start, as you are here, with this question of female MPs and MPs general safety? You've been in Parliament a long time, 27 years or so, since 1997. Has it changed dramatically? Morning, Emma. Good to talk to you. I think we've seen, obviously, the awful case we had when we lost Joe Cox and we lost David Amis. So we've obviously seen those terrible attacks take place. And then I think more recently, we've seen some of the increase in

intimidatory protests, this attempt to threaten MPs with things like the protests outside Tobias Elwood's home and the awful arson attack on Mike Freer's office. And you see Mike Freer, a well-respected MP, decides to stand down at the election. Both conservative, if I could just help out there. Yes, that's right. And so I think we can't stand for intimidation and threats in a democracy. We can't stand for that sort of security threat. So I think the government is right to take measures to address security threats in a democracy. Some of the issues that we've raised over time have been also about issues for councillors as well, where councillors might end up being targeted for being elected officials to make sure that democracy is protected at

a local level as well. If you don't mind answering this, because Tracey Crouch, Conservative MP, on last week talking about how it's changed and her view of it. Has it changed for you personally? She did give a view about how she felt. Do you feel more scared to be an MP now? Well, the way I feel about it, and you're right, I have been doing this job for 27 years,

is that the thing that is still the same as it was 27 years ago is that the overwhelming majority of people that you talk to, of people that you meet in the street and all of that kind of thing, they are either friendly or they want to talk about a serious issue and, you know, legitimately debate some problem or ask for help with a problem. Or to be honest, they're not actually that interested in the work that that you're doing and we shouldn't forget that and we also shouldn't forget that the majority of the discussions that you have are about things that you can change and things that you want to do but we've got a tiny minority that that try to subvert that that try to undermine that with threats with abuse abuse. And that has changed, particularly with the online abuse and threats. So we obviously didn't have that 27 years ago. And there are

procedures that all of us have had to change, for example, about not having open access surgeries, you have to make appointments for surgeries and things like that. But I still think it's really important to remember that the overwhelming majority of people are wanting to have friendly conversations. And it is an opportunity in politics to change things for other people. Do you have security at your surgeries? So we have particular arrangements in place. I wouldn't obviously go into individual details. Just because it's an announcement overnight from the Home Office, you can't give the specifics. I recognise that. But that sounds like it might be a change.

I suppose what I'm trying to think about is, even if you don't follow politics closely, are we now going to see our politicians with security guards more often than not, individuals? And it's that sight and that reality I'm trying to understand. Well, I think the approach that the police take and that the government is taking is to look at the different risks and to look at the different circumstances.

I don't think anybody wants to move away from a political tradition in Britain where actually we are talking on a day-to-day basis to people that you chat into in the street, that you have those conversations. But we also have to make sure that a small minority of people can't subvert that and that's the sensible things yeah the sensible things that I think the government is is rightly trying to put into place. Would you still get into it? Would you still go

into politics? Definitely yeah and I would encourage other people too as well I mean we're about to talk about something which is really important about Ranim's law. That's something that we need politics to change. It's something that's broken in the system at the moment. But if you don't have politics, if you don't have women coming into politics to talk about these kinds of things, then we don't get to change things. Let's get to it. Because if Labour, as you're hoping, would win the election, looking at how domestic violence is dealt with in 999 control rooms is on the agenda. You just mentioned it there. The proposed policy would be called Raneem's Law, named in memory of a 22-year-old woman who was stabbed to death by her ex-husband, Jan Baz Taran, in 2018. Raneem

Uda had spoken to police six times in less than two hours before her ex-husband killed both her and her mother, Kaula Salim. Yvette has been working with Raneem's aunt, Noor Norris, to put together these proposals. And I'm happy to say Noor has also joined us in the studio. Good morning. Welcome. Hi, good morning. Thank you for being with us and with me today. May I start by asking what happened on that day to your niece and your sister? First of all, I would like to say,

Ranim was a very beautiful little young girl who really all she wanted was her life to continue the way every little, every girl in the country liked it to be. On the day that she called the police five times she was hoping for her last she was really hoping for for her life to stay and no one to take her life away so she was really hoping that police would cooperate with her unfortunately they didn't and previous to that she she made 13 calls where she felt then she was let down by the system quite badly because of the attitude of domestic abuse in the country. But really, when you are drowning, you really hold into the last bit of hope.

So she called the 999 four times, hoping that they're going to actually come to rescue her. Instead, they've sent her home come to rescue her instead of send her home. And they called her back to say, we're going to give you an appointment to come and see you in the morning. And they heard her screaming as she was attacked by her mother's house. In order for her to be saved, the only thing that my sister did is run to her to save her. Well, my sister did what the police should have really done that day

to come to rescue her. But my sister run to her daughter to save her with her bare hands, something that we shouldn't really see in our life as women in this country, in particular, we are in the 21st century, and we still struggle with domestic abuse, even understanding the basic of it. It's very hard, I'm sure to to go over that thank you for for explaining a bit of what had happened and also in the in the run-up to that scenario and also just to say what was your sister like as well? Yeah my sister was a very loving mother who loved her family very much very jolly very bubbly very she was just the heart of the family and i she did exactly what i expected her to do

is to run with her bare hands to fight the perpetrator something that everyone failed to do and they had the power to do it but she seemed to have more power than them because she has the power of love and that's what we're trying to do with the campaigning that i've been carrying called secure life we are hoping for life, future free from fear for every female in a country, not just female, everyone who's under domestic abuse in any formula.

We want to secure people's life and prevent future death. And the only way to do it is through putting the right plan in place and the right law so everyone can follow. The West Midlands Police was heavily criticised

by the Independent Office for Police Conduct, also in the jury trial, which found that the force had missed opportunities to stop the perpetrator. Do you believe that your niece and your sister would still be here if the police had acted differently? Absolutely. They had many chances. We went through an inquest. An inquest is when you take the police to the court.

And we won it. And we had 33 police officers. They were all, they materialistically contributed towards their death. And when we hear about a huge number of police in the fail, that means everything, every sector, everything that they do wasn't really, wasn't ready for domestic abuse situation at all. She was failed. And I remember her saying once to me, Auntie, I don't think I'm going to

live for that long. And at the time, I believed in the system so much. I said, No, don't say that. If you just cooperate with the police and tell them exactly what's going on, they will be able to help you. And she gave me a um sarcastic smile and she she said no they're not going to help me because by then she already tried 13 times begging them for help and he was never arrested to keep him away to to in some way keep her safe if i can read this there's a statement here from west midlands police um which is taking on um on the progress the force is making on the recommendations of the independent office of Police Conduct. The Assistant Chief Constable, Andy Hill, we wanted to know how they were doing, but we actually got this instead.

It's the same statement that was given after that inquest that you mentioned. He said, on behalf of West Midlands Police, I would like to apologise to Raneem and Kala's family. We should have done more to join up the incidents of abuse that were being reported to us to safeguard Ranim by considering appropriate interventions such as a domestic violence protection order or a referral to the sanctuary scheme which could have made her home a safer place. A number of key changes have already been made since the murders of Ranim and Kaula, including increasing the number of staff specifically investigating domestic abuse offences and the creation of a new team to review investigations. Yvette Cooper, we don't have that update I was hoping and we were hoping to give in terms of where that's got to.

But what do you want to see change? We have to have major changes. The system totally failed, Raneem and Cowler, and Nora has been bravely telling that story and campaigning for change. We need practical action. We cannot just have more women be let down in this terrible, terrible way in domestic abuse victims, not get the support they need from the police at that point of emergency and when they need it. So first of all, we want to make sure that there are domestic abuse specialists in every 999 control room so that you get that specialist response right from the start when an emergency call comes in. Secondly, we need to make sure that there is a proper timescale for

the police immediately considering things like the domestic violence protection orders that you referred to, protection orders that should have been applied in this case that can increase the protection, the safety measures. And also in this case, obviously, they didn't instigate charges either. And then thirdly, where victims themselves end up having to take desperate action themselves, end up having to take non-molestation orders out themselves. In Ranim's case, the police didn't even know that a non-molestation order was in place. And so when it was breached on the night that she was attacked,

the police didn't even know, and that was another reason that they didn't turn up. We've got to have automatic information shared so that the police always know when those civil orders are in place. And we want to bring those three measures together as part of Ranim's law to make sure that things do change for abuse victims in the future and that we never let a case like this happen again. I suppose there are specific changes there but some of what you're saying is also a situation of there already being those things that exist and it not being applied.

And you can say individual police forces and individuals within those forces are the ones to be blamed there. So it's not necessarily a total change, but it seems to be plugging some of those gaps. But I suppose my question is, how would you, if you were in power, if you were the Home Secretary, try to make it that those things aren't not used, that are already there? Yeah. So that's why we want a clear timescale so that in every domestic abuse case that is reported to the police, within 24 hours, the police will need to have reviewed whether protection orders are needed. We know that, for example, they tend to only be used in around 1% of cases across the country, even though they can make a real difference.

That is not good enough. And to also have proper national monitoring of the way in which police forces are using these forces to make sure they also have specialist teams in place to be able to apply for different kinds of protection orders and to make sure that system works much faster. So you're right, some of this is about introducing new policies and new measures. Some of it is actually just making sure the existing system works properly

because it is failing women at the moment. It is failing domestic abuse victims at the moment. How rare are these sorts of cases where we have these specifics? Or is this more common than we think? I think that the cases where protection orders are not being used and they should be are troublingly common. I think there are very many cases across the country where those protection orders should be in place. They should be being used and they're not. And instead, what you get is repeated abuse, perhaps with stalking and so on, and without

intervention taking place. We also know that prosecutions have fallen as well around domestic abuse. So I think there is evidence of a serious problem. Clearly, in Rani's case, you had all of these things coming together. And also this response to the 999 calls, repeated 999 calls, that was just so devastating. But the Northumbria Police and Crime Commissioner, Kim McGuinness, has introduced already this programme of having the specialists in 999 control centres. So we know that that can be done. We know that that can make a difference to the response to these cases. And that's why we want to see that nationwide as part of Ranim's law as well. I mean, a spokesperson for the Home Office has said to the response to these cases. And that's why we want to see that nationwide as part of Ranim's law as well.

I mean, a spokesperson for the Home Office has said domestic abuse is intolerable and sometimes fatal, yet it's far too common. Our legislation and policy recognise that domestic abuse does not stop at the point of separation and can include stalking. We continue to work with the Ministry of Justice, the charity sector and partners throughout the criminal justice system to do everything in our power to mitigate its impact, to help victims and survivors recover and get back to life as normal. And there have been other

issues that have been raised as part of trying to keep especially women safe. For instance, from January of this year, the government put in place a £2 million fund. Victims can apply to help them leave their abusers. £500 and also a further one-off payment of £2,500. There are those sorts of policies, I suppose. But just to come back to you and make sure, Noor, you're part of this and continue to be part of this discussion, as this obviously matters a great deal to you. What do you feel about moving forward and having faith in the system

and that police may have learned lessons and that they may do better with some of these recommendations, that your case, even if there isn't a law change, may have changed some awareness? Clearly, there's bigger movement at the moment because we are experiencing a number of women dying every three days.

The statistics says every three days we have a woman dying of domestic abuse so it's more likely someone to die in their home than on the street um so domestic abuse is not a very good place at the moment we need huge measures and like Yvette was saying that introducing a law that will really put things in perspective of an order rather than just let's just work on our initiative. What we really need is a change of attitude towards domestic abuse all the way from the government all the way down to all sectors, not just the police, even social services and even GPs and everybody really, in order to secure that.

And bringing in a law in place that will make it more of a system that they have to follow because it is a law and they will have to follow it and we can't just rely on people initiative and what they have been trained on and and i do believe having i mean i always had always supported by labour Party about domestic abuse. And I believe if they win the election and bring this law in, it will really help a lot of people because a lot of campaigners out there, there's no one there really to support them and help them. Well, I mean, some have worked very closely indeed with this government and I've interviewed them alongside ministers. But your campaign is something we wanted to make sure we heard about this morning and heard your sister and your niece's name and also a bit about them as individuals.

Noor Norris, thank you very much indeed. Messages coming in about politics in general, safety, would you get into it? But while I have you as the Shadow Home Secretary, can I just ask you about another case that some of our listeners are very interested in at the moment, some of them vexed about this. It's a case

making headlines this week that of the convicted murderer and cat killer scarlet blake scarlet's a trans woman and if it how will that crime be recorded as being committed by a man or a woman so i look that is an appalling crime as my understanding is that this individual has also been put in to a male prison as well and I think that is appropriate and that also is you know how it should be recorded we should recognise there is a difference between biological sex and gender we rightly have laws around gender that we've had from around 2004 but we also recognise that biological sex is different as well. We've tried to find out this morning how it's been recorded by the Home Office

because crime statistics are important to have that clarity as you just talked about. Some may note that that seems to be a change in your party's position. I remember interviewing some of your colleagues around what constitutes a woman and what doesn't. But if I just stay with what you have said right now and talking about crime as the Shadow Home Secretary, do you know how that will be recorded as being we've talked about where the individual is going to prison but do you know as the individuals referred to as a she throughout the trial the media follow the trial so she has

been referred to as a she during the reporting of it do you understand whether that will be recorded that that individual is a man or a woman? I think obviously the Home Office will need to make that clear. That's a matter for them. So I don't know what answer the Home Office will give. But I think we just need to recognise obviously the difference between gender and biological sex and make sure that there is, you know, there are proper systems in place to do that.

How should it be recorded? Well, I think obviously the biological sex for this individual is male. They, as I understand it, has been a gender recognition process and we have that legal process. But I think it's possible to recognise both of those and to make sure that where you have, you know, biological sex is involved, particularly in crimes, that that is properly recognised. I think that, you know, the fact of the recognisers, I understand it around the prison system, that is recognising this. And I'm sure, Emma, that you will be pressing to continue to get an answer from the Home Office on this.

Well, we have asked, as I said this morning, but just to be clear, from your point of view, Scarlet Blake's crime should go into the crime statistics as a male crime. I think there needs to just be a recognition of the difference between biological sex and gender. So in that sense, yes. That's a sensible way to do it. And of course, you need to do that as part of recognising the way that crimes are reported. Thank you for your clarity on that. That's just a question I'm sure some

would like to hear your view on, especially as you run to be the Home Secretary. Perhaps that will be the next time I'll talk to you, but maybe in between. Yvette Cooper, thank you very much for your time as well this morning. A message just to say as well, anything that you have been affected by in this conversation, our wider conversation from Noor coming on the programme, we're very grateful to her. You can go

to the BBC's Action Line where there are links for support. To come to some of your messages about politics and whether you'd be drawn to it. And some of your reaction to what you've heard about this 31 million pounds to come and give greater protection to not just individual MPs, as I said at the beginning, but to the democratic process. It's a shame that threats and abuse are a part of political life, reads this message. But if that's the reality, then that must come with the job description, reads this message. To pull out 30 million or so to protect politicians is a bit of an insult to the millions of people living in deprivation or within abusive relationships or are living with life threatening illnesses or are struggling to feed their families. I don't see why politicians should be elevated above everybody else.

I'm not sure it's about elevation. I suppose it's about safety at work, which people would expect. But to your point, we've just heard about what it was like to try and be safe within society, having rung police several times for an individual and then in the run up during an abusive relationship. So I can understand why perhaps those links being drawn. And another message here, but not saying that that's the position, but I'm just saying I get that message in some sense of that context of the conversation. Another, I work for an MP in a constituency office. Security is always on our minds.

We always check possible surgery venues in advance to ensure that there are at least two exit points. Surgery dates and locations are not advertised. We carry lone worker devices when out and about.

We have only ever required extra security, which was recently. While I have sympathy for those in public life reads this other message from James for hundreds of years those same have always been at some risk and therefore they're cautious

albeit keeping life outside politics particularly family very separate. I do wonder if this is nothing new and politicians accept the risk the same as do our police and local politicians. Why are MPs different? Reads this message

and so it will continue. Please keep your messages coming in. The same as do our police and local politicians. Why are MPs different? Reads this message. And so it will continue. Please keep your messages coming in. Now, let me tell you about a conversation we had here last July with the comedian, actor and author Andy Osho, who joined us to talk about her second novel, Tough Crowd. And during that interview, she revealed she was also editing her mother's memoirs, like you do, saying the book was being written as a legacy for the family. It details the story of a young girl's journey from idyllic life in rural 1940s Nigeria

through the heartbreak of losing her parents, tumultuous years with uncaring guardians and abusive marriage which ended in betrayal to full-time career in nursing and raising her three children in the UK with a final chapter, I suppose, and where we are now finding hope and happiness. Well, I'm very pleased to say that Andy's mother, Charlotte Osho, joins us as well

and has now published her book, The Jagged Edge. Andy, Charlotte, good morning. Welcome to you both. Good morning. Lovely to have you here. Andy, I'm going to come straight back to you if I can, because a mother-daughter project sounds brilliant in principle, may not be the easiest for everyone, but you've managed it. Do you know, it's funny because, you know, we were talking about this the other day and, you know, asked how easy it was to write. It's the jagged path. And yeah, how easy it was to. Excuse me, the jagged path no problem but working together and it didn't even

occur to me that it would be a thing because I know obviously in some relationships it would be difficult for you know mother and daughter to be working together and there'd be a bit of you know personal interpersonal history coming into the into the process but it was really straightforward and then I think I think mum you said, I just did what you told me to do. And that made it much easier. Is that how it goes generally with Andy? Yes. Yeah. Is it going really? So there's no problem working with Andy. So she has been very, very helpful all along the way from the beginning, really.

She's been she's done a sterling job. Oh, thanks, Babsy. the way from the beginning really she's been she's done a sterling job oh thanks babes Charlotte why did you want to write your story down what why was it important it's important to me very important to leave it as a legacy for my loved ones and having my story down whenever I share it with Andy, she always encouraged me, you should write a book. You should put it down. Write your story down. Until I went to a retirement fellowship a few years ago. And we had a speaker there who shared her story.

She has just published her life story and she encouraged all of us, everyone, to write our life story that it is important to leave it as a legacy for our family. So from there on, I was really interested in what she said and she said, if I can do it, anyone can do it. So from that time onward, I started to look into how I can actually write my own story. So that's how it all started, really. A lot of people think that they should know their elder's story, but lots of people don't do it. So congratulations on that. I think it's a real effort and it will be such a gift for your family and hopefully

a wider audience. And you knew, I'm sure some of the stories, Andy, but just tell us a bit about what perhaps you didn't get from it and what you've learned, maybe. I mean, so much, because as you say, a lot of people, either they don't know their older relatives or parents' stories, or they just know fragments and then they maybe fill in the rest. So, you know, reading her story, I found out growing what you eat, foraging, that type of thing. But because it was what mum knew, there wasn't anything to compare it to. And it was kind of idyllic. So, you know, even just learning what that was like, and then moving forward, like understanding her relationship with my dad, which was, as you said in the intro, like abusive. And so that was something that she had protected us and only given us little fragments when she felt we were old enough so it was really profound to read that

and know that she had been so strong and not given any inkling to us as kids that that was what was going on I remember I was about like 10 or something like that I said to my mum do you ever cry because I was just like it just blew my mind I'd never seen her upset well of course she probably did she did I mean she says in the book she did, but we never, ever saw that. Was that hard to write down, that part of your life, Charlotte? Yes, very difficult to write down. It brought back a those difficult times, challenging times. When I was with Joseph, I cried quite a lot, but the children didn't see me cry. But it was like things he was doing, I would think, why was he doing this to me? I felt really, really awful and really heartbroken and couldn't

explain why. I was trying to be a good person, a good wife, a good mother, and still it wasn't good enough for him. So he did all he could to really bring me down in whatever way he found necessary or fitting for him to do. Yes, so it was very difficult. And you also then were single parenting after you were in this situation and you found yourself to be alone and be able to do that, which must have also in a, you know, still a relatively new country, must have been very tough at times. Yes, yes. It was very tough. But I always kind of not looking on my problem, what was going on, but looking how I can get things better, do things better, be sufficient

to provide for my family, for myself, have a roof over our heads and food on the table. That was my focus, that I didn't let anything distract me. And to be able to keep my job, I had a very good job, which I really love. And it was quite near me. So that was really important that it's good to have a job, a security. All those things kept me going, my children particularly, it kept me going that I couldn't let them down. Well, I'm sure there's absolutely nothing that's coming across here about your mum letting you down in any way and working as a nurse for over 40 years in the NHS? Yes yes it was over 40 years that's right. That's incredible and for

you I suppose when you've now sort of start to put these things together Andy it must give you quite a different sense of the story at the beginning for your mum and where she is now. Yeah I mean one of the things that mum said is one of the reasons for writing this book also is to sort of inspire others who may go through difficult times. And through it, you can really see how she used the adversity to build this kind of fortitude

and this sort of resilience to be able to get through life. Because there would have also been prejudice as well that you were encountering and dealing with. Yeah, I mean, gosh, reading about that as well, about what things were like just first arriving in the UK. I mean, it's kind of funny. There's some stuff that's funny, you know,

just encountering some British foods for the first time, like cheese that just had me crying. Because the thing is, Emma, we would be chatting and I'd be going through a chapter. There's a big smile on your mum's face. And I'd say'd say oh tell me a bit more about like food when you first arrived and she's not written this down she's like oh gosh when I tried cheese for the first time it was awful or you know spaghetti it looks like worms I'm like mum why isn't this in the book so this is where I got involved. You teased it out? Yeah it's like sort of cramming those stories in. Are you into cheese yet?

Didn't expect to ask that. Yes, I am now, but not a big cheese eater. That's all right. That's not a requirement of living in the UK. Yeah, I think gradually. Not by the entry. No, to get your citizenship. Oh, maybe camembert.

Yeah, oh no, not camembert. No, no, go start with cheddar. Come on. Well, yeah, all right. Mild stuff. Yeah, maybe Camembert. Yeah, oh no, not Camembert. No, no, go start with cheddar, come on. Well, yeah, all right, the mild stuff. Mild. Slowly, gradually. But you still don't like Stilton or anything like that? No, I don't. No, she doesn't like the strong stuff. I don't like the strong ones.

But it's all important stuff. It's all in the book. Yeah, you've got to have that laugh though as well at the same time. Oh yeah, 100%. But that's, I think that's mum as well, is that like, she doesn't dwell in the serious. But that gives her, like, there's a depth to her, her spirit, her character because she's been through so much.

But she's able to look on the bright side and laugh about things. And, you know, when we're down, like say inspiring words rather than sort of dwell on the negative. And knowing her story, now I see why she sees the world in that way and why she counsels us in that way and why she has the outlook that she has. And just another, if you don't mind me, but the decision by your mum to protect you from a lot of that reality, do you think that was the right one? Do you agree with that? Because it's interesting when you look back on something

and then have more knowledge. Yeah, I mean, I can't say, you can't say right or wrong it just was what it was um and she made the decision that she felt was the right thing at the time I mean it the thing is the interesting thing is uh what I have sort of discovered about myself over time is that I kind of had my dad on a pedestal because I could create an imaginary one because I was seven when he left. So I created an imaginary version of him that was on this pedestal, whereas because she stayed and I was seeing her day to day, she became the challenge in my life kind of thing. And it's only through hearing her story and reflecting back on my relationship with my dad and seeing how my brothers relate to my dad that I've been like, oh, actually not such a great guy after all. And that's really sort of recalibrated my experience of him. Charlotte, how have the rest of the family reacted?

Have they all read it? No, not yet. OK. Yeah. But no, it wasn't. Yeah, they all kind of know the gist of the story and how it's going. So they're really, really excited about it and looking forward to reading it. So their encouragement all along the way has been very positive, really.

They want to know more about my life story. So they're really, really waiting and eager to read. OK, and what's the food going to be at the launch party it's not going to be cheese is it it's just just cheese literally just various cheeses from around the world that's it a nice big cheese board yeah no i wanted a flavor of what the actual best that was that was the favorite which what your favorite is oh is it my cheddar no no you're of No no of your cooking And the food that you love to eat

Oh I thought we were still on the cheese No I've moved on I'm not that obsessed I love Nigerian food Things like that Jollof rice and stew Cooked in beautiful tomato sauce You've got me

I just wanted to imagine what was the, you know, the actual preferred... But we're not having... We're not going down that road because that's a bit full on for the launch on Saturday. Yeah, oh no, we're not going... Not doing that. Yeah, it's a light finger buffet.

Yeah. You've taken me there. You've taken me to so many places. Take to the sea. The Jagged Path is the name of the book by Charlotte Osho congratulations thank you for coming on

Woman's Hour thank you so much for having us and Andy it's been really really lovely thanks for putting in an appearance too nice to have you back no it's not safe

not safe there you go taking us all around the world in some ways and some very personal experiences too thank you so much for your honesty. Liz has emailed to say, I started writing parts of my own

family story seven years ago but when I retired three years ago I've written daily exactly as we've just heard as a legacy for my loved ones. I'm now up to 70,000 words. It's been the best thing. It's helped me understand my own parents and grandparents and their circumstances as well as myself and how I came

to be who I am today. Lovely message. Liz, keep going. Thank you very much for that. Now to a completely different question and one perhaps you'll trust us with the answers of. Maybe you won't put your names on the emails and texts, but when was the last time you watched porn? Do you watch it? Does porn shape how you feel about sex, your body? Have you ever been asked to do something sexual that you think maybe came directly from porn? Perhaps that was a difficult thing. Perhaps it was a good thing. When pornography is discussed, it is often in terms, and I say discussed, I mean more in the media, I suppose, in terms of online harms, regulation. But what is

actually doing to us, our sexual practices, our relationships? How is perfectly legal and easily accessible porn shaping our sex lives and how we feel about ourselves and others? Well, in a new Woman's Hour series, we wanted to try to start an honest conversation about how the availability and content of porn affects what we do, how we feel and what we expect. Over the coming days and weeks, we are going to hear from you, I hope, about how it shaped your lives and your relationships and, you know, anything else you feel you can share with us. Today, we're going to start that conversation. And interestingly, in light of what we've been getting some messages about, someone who knows politics pretty well, she's the woman leading the independent pornography review for the government, the Conservative peer Baroness Gabby Burton, formerly David Cameron's longtime press secretary. She just walked into the studio. Good morning.

Morning, Emma. Thanks very much for having me on. Why this focus? Why the look at the world of pornography? Well, I think the government have commissioned this review really as a follow-on from the Online Safety Act, acknowledging that legislation and regulation around pornography has not been looked at for a very, very long time. And the whole industry, the whole way we view porn has changed completely. It's all online. It's no longer a sex DVD that you buy from a shop, which, by the way, was very well regulated. There were lots of checks and balances. The BBFC,

the British Film Classification would say what was right and what could be allowed in pornography DVDs. And that was a sort of all fairly in good order. But we don't have that anymore online. And that has to be looked at. Why you? Have you got a particular interest in pornography? Not a particular interest in pornography, but I do have a particular interest in trying to prevent violence against women and girls. And I think we, let's be honest about this. It is fairly gendered. Generally, it is men watching pornography, generally. Of course, some women watch it as well. And I'm afraid online there is a huge... We probably don't know though, do we? I mean, that's also the reality. What I find really interesting, having been a tech correspondent,

we would publish the top trends on Google, for instance, for search, but we wouldn't actually publish any of the porn statistics within that. We would look, you know, what the most news things were searched for. I suppose what I'm trying to say is the way we don't really have a framework for talking about it. Exactly. It means that we don't always have a full picture. No, and I think, to be perfectly honest, part of this review, we have a call for talking about it. Exactly. It means that we don't always have a full picture. No, and I think, to be perfectly honest,

part of this review, we have a call for evidence out at the moment, which I would urge, I mean, I'm very grateful for this programme to be talking about pornography. I think we have to have that open conversation. And that's all part of the evidence gathering, really, to understand...

I'm not sure you're going to do very well with that, though. I don't want to be a cynic, but if I was asked by the government to talk about my porn habits, I think the government might be the last location to share that. There have been reviews and there are statistics around you know the fact that it is generally men watching pornography. No no of course but I mean it's just I'm trying to sort of speak to the complexity of the picture and what we do know and it may be out of date even you know how women interact with

it that's what we're trying to get. I think think the reality is that this is not a sort of niche subject. This is not esoteric. This is huge. You know, last month alone, we do know that in one month, there was a report that said that 15 million people alone logged on to pornography sites. And by the way, it's not just pornography sites, it's social media as well. Just as much pornography is accessed via X, formerly Twitter, Insta.

It's a huge thing. And I think that sort of to allow it to bubble under the surface because it's a rather uncomfortable subject and for us not to really understand the impact, who's doing what. And that sort of can't carry on really because it has to be having an effect. Particularly, I went to a briefing at the British film, the BBFC, and some of the abhorrent, violent, very abusive content that is still legal, that you can search up fairly easily, I just don't think that's acceptable.

And I think we do have to try and find ways of accepting that, of course, pornography, this isn't going to be a judge review. This is not judging at all that people might want to watch pornography online. That's not my approach at all. They sometimes even do it in the House of Commons. Neil Parrish, the Conservative MP for Tiverton, Honison honison and devon from 2010 to 22 he had to resign after watching pornography twice in parliament he says the first time was accidental looking at a tractor website just remind people of this story the second time was in the house of commons and it was deliberate

well i mean indeed it's sort of the whole way we we do this the fact that you can do it in the privacy of your own device privacy of your own bedroom or the privacy or sort of the whole way we do this, the fact that you can do it in the privacy of your own device, privacy of your own bedroom or the privacy or not of the House of Commons means that this can't be something that we don't address. And I think that's why the review is so important. And I feel very honoured to be leading it. What will success look like? Because it's tricky to understand what the changes will be. There's been a big debate as well, just to say about age verification. Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I think success, to be clear, the age verification is being driven very much by Ofcom. That law has already been put in place. We will have to keep a very close eye on how successful the law is. I think very often we introduce laws and we don't

do enough post-legislative scrutiny of how successful they are. And clearly on age verification, on young people accessing pornography, that just is not something we can allow to sort of not be successful. But in my mind, I think success would be trying to bring that parity back to where we're at with the offline pornography world. Like I said, where you would have a classification for what was acceptable. So very, very violent, abusive pornography is not acceptable in the offline world. Whereas in the online world, it is happening and it is not properly regulated. And I think that is what success would look like. Being able to regulate it online. Yes, exactly. And also, of course, talking to the industry. I mean, I think that you can't expect law enforcement to be all over this. There's such a huge amount of content out there. But I think really trying to engage the industry

to get them to act more responsibly. And certainly certain websites are trying to do the right thing or come much more towards trying to make sure they sort of get abusive and exploitative content offline. But I think a much bigger conversation needs to be done. And I'm afraid you do need sticks and carrots. And that is what I would hope the review would come up with. And something that...

In a conversation about porn, you need sticks and carrots. It will be, as a former press secretary, I'm sure you're aware of the mileage in that. I'd be cringing in the green room, for sure. But the thing just to ask, I mean, there will be some of our listeners who watch porn, derive pleasure from it, not the potentially the violent type that you,

but you can have a whole other chat about the abusive nature or the potential abusive nature of all porn to varying degrees, depending on your views. But if you were to just say for some they don't really think they watch they enjoy what is your view is the woman tasked with looking at this for the government about the fact that it can be for some a good thing oh yeah and i and i like i said i'm not i'm not judging this at all and that's not really what we're uh trying to address in this review but some of this is going to be very subjective at times, isn't it? About how it is managed. And, you know, it's taken many, many years for the same government to look at this, may I also add.

I don't know why now versus the last more than a decade, 13 years that the Conservatives have had, but here we are. There we go. Do you have a view on that? I do have a view on that. I think that in reality, we could have been much quicker on it. I think we haven't acted as quickly as we could have done. I think the nature of the uncomfortable nature of the subject, I don't think policy creators run towards it. I think there's no one thing that I've really discovered

in the early stages of this review, because that's where we are, we are, is that sort of pornography, with all its tentacles, yes, so it's about clearly there is illegal pornography, which there are laws in place. But the sort of business side of it, the tentacles that it reaches into advertising and the sort of technology, there's no one place, there's no one home with it. And I think that that is something that has to change as well. Who's commissioned it? The Prime Minister.

So Rishi Sunak's commissioned this look? Yes, and it sits within... Why now for Rishi Sunak? Well, I think it was an acknowledgement that quite rightly, my colleagues in the House of Lords were talking a great deal about the troubling situation with, you know, online pornography within the context of the Online Safety Act. And I think for understandable reasons, the government said, look, we'd still be trying to get that act through now if we if we if we included pornography generally into that the scope of that bill so they took out the age verification for uh children under 18 um accessing online pornography and they said look we'll have a review uh into the more general uh regulation and legislation that uh that that needs needs to be done in the context of how we're

we're changing our lives how we're we're watching porn in a different way uh how is be done in the context of how we're changing our lives, how we're watching porn in a different way. How is it being in the House of Lords? You talked about safety for those who are elected and not elected, but certainly in the chambers. So I feel very strongly about this. I mean, I co-chaired with Vernon Coker, a Labour peer, a commission for the Jo Cox Foundation on Civility in Public Life. And I'm frankly appalled by what is happening.

And I think that we need to call it out. It's not just an acceptable passage of being an MP to be threatened, to feel that you have to have a panic alarm or to have bodyguards. I mean, that is such a really a destruction of our democracy, because, of course course why would you why would you want to go into politics? We have some of some of our listeners saying exactly that I just wanted to make sure I gave you the opportunity as someone of course who worked very closely with the Prime Minister and will have seen the security detail that that requires but now we're hearing

about security. But I suppose I feel that as a member of an of an unelected house I mean I have a I will defend that, but not on this programme right now. It's a different issue. But I feel that I want to praise all my elected colleagues because the vast majority of them are public servants

and they're doing a good job and we don't recognise that enough. Come back and talk to us about the findings of your review when you get there. I hope we will hear that from you. You were just listening there to Baroness Gabby Burton, who's tasked with that job from Rishi Sunak. And going to the porn issue, we do want to hear from you. How has it shaped your life, your relationships? Perhaps also explore your sexuality. Do get in touch. And

tomorrow, the story of a woman who had to work out where the line was for her around her partner's poor news. But do get in touch. Let me tell you about something else, though, that you perhaps would like to watch that is in a different genre. Things You Should Have Done, a new BBC Three sitcom which follows Chi, a very much stay-at-home girl who suddenly loses both her parents and has to fend for herself. But they leave her a list entitled Things You Should Have Done. Things she has to fend for herself, but they leave her a list entitled Things You Should Have Done, things she has to complete if she wants to inherit the house, things like learning to drive and doing something for someone else. Let's hear a clip.

This is the family listening to the lawyer who's reading the will left by Lucia's mother. The house goes to my daughter Lucia on the condition that she completes the list of things I've written down. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How come she has to do things that you've written down? Do you understand what wills are? I'm this these are mother's words were you reading in my mom's voice because she didn't sound like that no what's what's on the list please uh some basic stuff stuff like um learn how to tell the time get one gcse uh there's also a note saying um i know

you're probably mid 40s so this doesn't apply to you but I'm worried you wouldn't make anything of your life. There you go. Lovely. Things You Have Done, written by the comedian and writer Lucia Keskin who also stars as Chi. Good morning. Morning. Just join me in the studio. How did you get into comedy?

Always in your bones? A funny woman? Yeah, I just watched it with my grandad since I was little and just loved it. Were there any particular influences? Also, it's like, you know, absolutely fabulous. My dog's called Pia Paloma Faith Adina Monsoon. That's a mouthful in the park. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Things like that. Those are some of the early influences because you have created this, Things You Should Have Done. Where did the idea come from? It came from just grieving. So I lost my granddad two years ago and it was kind of dealing with grief through comedy and just different ways being in denial.

And we were just throwing around ideas and we thought, write about someone who's grieving and how you deal with it in completely strange ways. And the list that you came up with, where's this from? Are these various things that you have yet to do yourself? I mean, now hopefully I've done more. But yeah, I mean, a lot of it I've only just learned in real life as well. Like?

Like, you know, I still haven't got any GCSEs. So that, I mean, that's still not happened. Things like learn how to cook. Like I'm finally cooking now. That took me that I mean that's that's that's what that's still not happened things like learn how to cook like I'm finally cooking now that took me I mean only about a year year ago well so in some ways a good to-do list for for real life yeah yeah it is as doing all of this and trying to make people laugh I mean it's it's it's deadpan and you know that's your style really isn't it is that a fair way of describing it? Keeping it.

But for you getting into this how did you do it? Was it sharing stuff online first of all? Yeah it was writing sketches, posting them online, social media kind of dressing up as people and then just yeah. Doing that but it's a step from as you say not havingSEs, doing this online and now being commissioned by the BBC. There'll be those listening, how did you do that? I know. How did you do that? I don't know. It's all kind of because of lockdown.

The timeline seems really weird, but it was just I think the pandemic happened and it was just such a great way of posting things because things weren't getting made so I started you know writing sketches dressing up as people doing like parodies of things and then got an agent um managed to get some meetings in with some production companies and then just like meetings and things like that and chats and managed to get the meeting with the BBC. And what was it like being commissioned and having that? I mean, it was just ridiculous because I still, every kind of step felt like it would be just something that would then pass. So it was kind of like we got the first script commission. I was like, oh, that's amazing.

But I mean, it will kind of just be something that will disappear eventually. And then the pilot, and then eventually it's just somehow it's coming out tomorrow. And I don't know how. How are you feeling today? I don't know. It's really weird. I feel like I still won't quite believe it until it's out. Well, it's there. It's coming. I've seen a preview. And how old were you when you were actually commissioned?

I think I was 21, I think. That's pretty good. Again, I don't know about times. I think it was two years ago we did the pilot, so it must have been, yeah, 21. And on the more emotional side of what you were trying to do, what are you hoping to share with people when it comes to family members, relationships, loss? I think probably just that, you know, you can grieve in more ways than just, you know,

what one and that comedy and, like, laughing just really is a way that I think a lot of people will hopefully relate to because I know that it's the way that I definitely got through it was just finding things that got, you know, that could cheer you up and making it lighthearted as much as you possibly can. When you are a comedian and this is your role at the moment in life, is there a bit of pressure for you to be funny, for people to have that reaction around you? I think sometimes, yeah. But I mean, a lot of the time it's just not caring and it's a it kind of doesn't matter but I definitely think yeah there's always a bit of pressure.

And how is it going into this industry as a young woman now? I love it like I just I've loved it I've had a really positive experience luckily but yeah I've had a really lovely time I mean I've just kind of got got here so hopefully Long may it continue. Lucia Keskin thank you very much. Thank you so much. Good luck for it dropping tomorrow. Things You Should Have Done starts on BBC3. Thank you. And I wish you all the best with it

and I'm sure it will become real tomorrow at some point. Thanks for having me. All the best with that. Thank you very much for all of your messages today a huge variety not least people talking about whether they would go into public life, they are in public life, and also thinking about writing down your life.

So a lot of memories along those lines inspired by our guests today. So huge thanks to them. And be here with us tomorrow, as always, 10 o'clock on Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Amol Rajan

here. And it's Nick Robinson and we want to tell you about the Today podcast from BBC Radio 4. Yes, this is where we go deeper into the sort of journalism that you hear on Today, exploring one big story with more space for insight and context.

We hear from a key voice each week, a leader in their field, be they a spy chief, a historian, a judge, a politician, all with something unique to say, and we make sure they've got the time and space to say it. The WhatsApps show the character of the men who were running our country at that point. Trump is probably going to beat Joe Biden because he is a force of nature. If the next scan says nothing's working, I might buzz off to Zurich. We give you our take

as well and lift the lid just a little bit on how the Today program actually works. That is the Today podcast. Listen now on BBC Sounds and subscribe. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.