Woman's Hour - Zara Aleena's aunt, Spice Girls stamps, surge in scabies

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

Farah Naz, the aunt of murdered law graduate Zara Aleena, tells of her concerns that her niece’s killer has allegedly been caught having sex with a prison worker. Jordan McSweeney is serving a life sentence at high security Belmarsh Prison in South London.For the first time, Royal Mail has dedicated set of stamps to a female pop group, to commemorate 30 years since the Spice Girls formed in 1994. We talk to Lauren Bravo, a culture journalist and DJ Yinka Bokinni. We hear about the start of a new landmark Radio 4 documentary series called Child which follows a child’s development from fertilisation to first birthday from its creator India Rakusen.There’s been a surge in the number of scabies cases and experts are warning there’s an acute shortage of treatments which is turning it into a major public health threat. Emma Barnett talks to Dr Tess McPherson about who is most at risk from catching it and how best to avoid it.And we talk to barrister Harriet Johnson about a study which suggests rape convictions are 20% less likely in cases where victims give pre-recorded evidence. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Emma Harth

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It's lovely to be back with you from a brief holiday and as is customary for me before a break, I did the mad last minute dash to the chemist to top up on some key toiletries. You know those ones you always think you have but you don't. And it was while I was in there and insisted that a woman went in front of me, because we both arrived at the same time, that I was reminded of how embarrassed we can all be.

She insisted I went first. So after some polite wrangling, I did, only for then to be another member of staff, come out at the same time and serve her. And it was then she quietly asked for some cystitis medicine. We've all been there, as I told her then, and I'm saying again now, and yet the shame surrounding what's wrong with us, especially as women, can have very debilitating effects. And I thought back to this scene this morning as we planned today's programme with a look at the

surge in the number of cases of the skin disease scabies amid a treatment shortage in this country. It can be a particular problem for women, as women can feel more shame as the condition is mistakenly thought to be linked to poor hygiene. We'll talk in more detail about this with a specialist doctor shortly. But let's blow it all open today. Put it out there. What conditions or complaints have you had

that you have been embarrassed by or misinformed about or both? And what did you do about it? Did you drag your heels? Did you go straight away? What was the solution? Perhaps you wish you'd gone sooner. No shame here. You don't have to put your name because I always say that. But particularly today, if you want to just get rid of some kind of myth around something and perhaps you can help someone on the way. It's always a brilliant thing that we can be part of a community. It's live radio. You can get in touch while I'm talking. You know that I like to read your messages out. Let me tell you how to get in touch. Maybe you've never been in touch with a radio programme before. Take the chance today. The number is 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website or if you like WhatsApp, go on there. Or you can do a voice note on 03700 100 444. What conditions or complaints have you had that you've been embarrassed by and what did you or did you not do about it? Also on today's programme, the Spice Girls have become

the first all-female band to have a set of Royal Mail stamps issued. It's always been all-male bands before this. We will assess what they really did for women, really, really did, I should say, for women and girls, couldn't resist that, or not, depending on your viewpoint. And could what was meant to be a step forward in the justice system for women actually be backfiring? We will tell you more about that and many other things on

today's story, today's programme rather, and you can get in touch with your stories. But first, the murderer of Zara Alina, the 35-year-old law graduate killed walking home from an East London bar in 2022, has allegedly been caught having sex with a prison worker. Jordan McSweeney is serving at least 33 years in Belmarsh, allegedly the UK's most secure prison. The prison service, which runs Belmarsh, told the BBC it was aware of the alleged incident but would not comment further due to ongoing investigations. The Metropolitan Police said a 32-year-old woman was arrested in April

and is being investigated over alleged misconduct in public office. So remind you, the killer was a serial offender, having only just been released from his latest prison sentence and targeted at least five women before he attacked Zahra Alina. Farah Naz, aunt of Zahra, joined me earlier and I asked her when she found out about this alleged incident. I was informed last year in April because the police were informed that there was going to be a reporting on the incident in the media. And so they have an obligation to prepare the family

for any news that will be related to Zara's murder. And what was your response? Deep shock and a sense of hopelessness in the justice system yet again. But most of all, shock in the first instance that this could occur. And of course, I've heard of incidences like this. You know, nothing we've experienced hasn't happened before. But when you are personally connected, involved, it seemed really unbelievable that this could happen in a high-security prison such a short time after a life sentence has been given four months after the life sentence that it was It was that another opportunity was given to this individual to do as he will. And the opportunity is given, I know not intentionally, but the opportunity was given through disturbing weaknesses in a system.

And since Zara was murdered, we just seem to come across these disturbing weaknesses in systems that are meant to safeguard lives. And instead, these holes in the system have created opportunities for this depraved man to do as he will. To potentially be close to a woman again. Yes, to be close to a woman again. And it's shocking that a man who kills a woman can be close to a woman in prison. It's shocking. I feel for her.

I mean, I should say at this point... A sexual predator. I should say at this point, you i should say at this point you know we don't know those details it is an alleged relationship it is still under investigation but of course you have been informed by by the authorities which is why you have this knowledge that they wouldn't have come to you if they weren't looking into this seriously it wouldn't then be in the in the public domain And why did you take the decision? Because I can only, well, I can't imagine how difficult it is each time to speak publicly,

but why did you take the decision to talk on Woman's Hour today? Why did you feel it was important? Because I think that what we have experienced points to not human failings, but systemic failings, and systemic failings which are still present. And I believe that leadership system, the leaders of prisons, probation, police, government really need to attend carefully to all of the holes that have appeared that are clear. There's no doubt that there

are holes in the systems and attend carefully and you know people have asked me am i calling for a public inquiry we've had many public inquiries and systems haven't changed adequately i think it's time to pay attention to address systemic failings, like misogyny, toxic male attitude and behaviors, community breakdown, loss of shared values, enhancing motivation in certain employees, gaining a deeper understanding of the failings, and not just having a knee-jerk reaction.

I'm not calling for anything to happen immediately. I think it's time to attend to matters carefully and thoughtfully so that more lives aren't put at risk. Do you and your family have faith that can be done? Like you know we are struggling and as a family and as individuals there are parts of us that are broken and yet there are times when we feel have moments of hopefulness and optimism flickers and there are moments like with this incident that leave little room for hope. Thank you for talking so so candidly today. I know the the inquest is also to take place very soon. How are you doing about

that? Well, you know, largely it's out of my hands and it's it nervous about that process because I you know given the appeal that happened for this individual where he won an appeal there are questions for me whether the inquest will lead to where we would hope it to lead to to point at systemic failings so that the public isn't further failed but I you know my job is to avenge Zara and at the same time help systems to change that is the job that is the job to make some meaning out of something that was so meaningless. You're talking, just to fill in our listeners if they don't recall, about the appeal which saw the killer get five years off the sentence that was given.

Just if I may, you talk a great deal, which is very important, about system change and wanting that and some different approaches to that. But just something you said there about your job is to avenge Zara. You know, what do you mean by that? Well, to have justice done and for it to be known that Zara did nothing wrong. Do you not feel it? I was going to say, Do you not feel it is known that she did nothing wrong? Not completely and entirely. For a long time, we've had a lot of victim blaming when women get murdered.

People always raise their eyebrows as to what the woman did for this to happen. And I want it clearly said that the systems failed her that allowed an individual to do what he wanted to do. I think a lot of people would perhaps be shocked that you still feel that that needs to be said, which is why I wanted you to have the opportunity to say it clearly. Yes, there are many systems that failed her and that will hopefully come out. It wasn't just one. It wasn't just probation services. It goes beyond that. That's what I want acknowledged. He was charged. He's been given his life sentence.

But the system that enabled him to do what he did hasn't been charged. How should we think of your niece? How should we think of Zara? As a beacon of hope, as somebody who will, who's ending in life, led to changes in society, led to positive changes

and somebody who can shed some light on the failings. Farah and I were talking to me earlier. Big thanks to her for doing so. And I did say to you today that we make sure your voice is heard and you have been getting in touch while you've been listening to that and please do keep doing so throughout the programme because we're also talking today about women's health in particular around some of the conditions that perhaps you are too embarrassed to come forward with because doctors are warning of a surge in scabies cases across the UK. Come back to that

in just a moment, but it has prompted you to get in touch about a whole range of issues. Just let me read you a few of these. While staying with my in-laws in France, I contracted an infection of vaginal thrush. My husband went to the local pharmacy for me to obtain the medication. In his best French, he explained to the perplexed assistant, my wife has mushrooms growing in her. And then loads of asterisks on this. So glad I wasn't there to witness to the convulsed laughter in the shop. There you go. What a way to do that. Another one here. I wanted to go to the doctor for many years now. I'm happily married now with grown up children. I've been unable to have a sexual relationship for many, many years and I do not understand why.

I would love to be able to seek help, but I'm too embarrassed to go to my doctor. I also haven't Googled it because of the algorithms and then the subsequent messages I may be sent. My husband's amazing. We've worked through this over the years. I do wish I could go to the doctors in order to find some appropriate help, but I am just too embarrassed. There will be those listening who perhaps have something to say on that. If you do, do get in touch. We can always try and help one another. But I'm sorry you're in that situation, although it sounds good that you

have good support. But it'd be amazing if you could find a way, I suppose, to get some more support. And this is, I suppose, linked. Following a hip replacement, I was too embarrassed to ask the physiotherapist about the difficulties in opening my legs to enable intercourse. So instead, I asked for advice on suitable exercises to enable me to go horse riding.

I'm 67. I'm sure if I was in my 40s, I probably wouldn't have felt embarrassed to ask, says Jane, who's listening in Bolton. And then another one, just flipping it here, Anna, who's listening, on embarrassing conditions, I was surprised to find when I went into the pharmacy for thrush, it was the male pharmacist, not me,

who acted as if this was embarrassing. I asked for the treatment, swallowing my shame because I knew there was nothing to be ashamed about and because I'm a confident person. He told me which products were available, but he couldn't say the word itching. He kind of swallowed it as though it was shameful. I thought, you are the pharmacist. Well, let's get back to itching because I'm talking to you about scabies and a surge in cases. And according to a recent report by the Royal College of General Practitioners, the number of cases has been well above the seasonal average since July. The north of England has seen double the normal amount of cases in November.

And experts are also warning there's an acute shortage of treatments and that it poses a major public health threat. Joining me in the studio, Dr Tess McPherson. She's the president of the British Society for Paediatric and Adolescent Dermatology. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. We'll come to how women are perhaps about this in a slightly different way shortly. But what is scabies? What do you need to look out for?

So scabies is a microscopic mite, which is spread easily between humans. It's been with us since as long as we've got records. Aristotle even described it. So it's always been at a sort of general level in the community and it causes an extremely itchy rash. It can be mistaken easily for other itchy rashes which is one of the problems. So itch is the main symptom but also particular causes little sort of bumps in between the fingers, in the genital area, in the armpits, but widespread itch, which is often worse at night. So the key areas are between your fingers and all those places at the same time or one place? So you only need about 10 to 15 mites on your skin to cause a widespread rash.

It's a kind of allergic reaction to the mites that causes it. And so you can be itchy all over, but the mites tend to live in kind of warm, moist areas. And do we know why there's been a surge? So there's probably several reasons. We don't know for sure, but there does seem to be an increase in certain populations. There may have been a difference in the way humans are contacting each other post-COVID, so that may be one thing. We know that, as you've mentioned, there's a lot of people that don't know what it is. So if it's not diagnosed or not realised what it is and it doesn't get treated, then it spreads, it continues to spread. There is, as you said, a shortage of treatments.

And this is something the British Association of Dermatology is working to try and resolve. And I think people don't always apply the treatments properly when they get them. And importantly, they don't always talk to their contacts, so sexual partners or other people that they've had skin-to-skin contact with, about the fact that scabies, they have scabies, and therefore the contacts don't get treated and so it continues to spread. And what is the treatment? So there are several treatments.

You can get them from the pharmacy or from your GP. There's topical treatments called permethrin and malathion, and there's a tablet that's also licensed now for more resistant scabies called ivermectin. OK, and then that clears it up? Yeah, but the problem is if you don't use the treatments appropriately and your contacts are not treated, then the infestation can continue. OK, and what is the issue if you leave it? Because getting to the point which we're seeing across a whole range of issues here, although it's essentially linked to sex and that area of of life but if you leave it untreated what happens

well you continue to be itchy which is pretty miserable um it continues to spread you can get problems if you have another skin condition such as eczema that can make it worse because you scratch your skin you can cause openings in the skin and that can lead to skin infections in this country it's quite rare to have other problems beyond the skin, but certainly in hot developing countries, it's not uncommon to have more systemic problems or even kidney problems as a result of scabies. There's a couple of messages coming in around skin issues.

And for instance, and this speaks to the issue I wanted to bring up with you, psoriasis is an embarrassing ailment as people think you are not clean. Is that what we also see with scabies? Absolutely. We know that patients with all sorts of skin conditions appreciate have stigma from society, but also from themselves, importantly. That probably does root back to our concern that having a skin condition is because you're unclean, which is not true. But also having a skin condition means you may be contagious. And for many skin conditions, this is not true.

For eczema, psoriasis and acne, for instance, these are not catching conditions. Scabies is a catching contagious condition, but that doesn't make it okay or helpful to stigmatise it because it's not caused by being unhygienic. It's caused by the unluckiness of having mites in your bedding or wherever they may be. So it's not so much bedding.

There's probably very limited transmission through bedding. It's skin-to-skin contact. It's skin-to-skin. Okay, but I suppose people think it has to start somewhere. Why does it start with me? Well, because it's with humans. It's been with humans since 400 degrees BC. So it's never going to go.

Why it's more common now, we've discussed some of the issues. But people living in close quarters, so that's why we're seeing probably surges in student populations, care homes. It doesn't need to be sexual contact, it's just skin to skin contact. And not bedding, not fabric? Very unlikely that bedding and towels have a major role in transmission. And do you see a difference with women and men sometimes with skin? Absolutely. It's interesting you mentioned psoriasis. So I've got a patient, a young lady with psoriasis. And I think one of the interesting things about skin is that we often think about visible difference, but it's often the hidden differences that cause more shame.

She describes her psoriasis as her dirty little secret. So she covers up. She won't show the world. She also, unfortunately, has scabies, but she didn't want to tell her boyfriend that she had scabies. And, you know, by definition, he's probably got it and also needs to treat. So she kept being reinfested with scabies and you know by definition he's probably got it and also needs to treat so she kept being reinfested with scabies. And how do you I mean what do you say to to women in that situation it must be quite hard to to talk them out of a position they've got themselves into. So I see the sort of psychosocial impact of skin is is huge and it's something I address sort of routinely with my patients. I think it's making sure they understand it's not their fault and I think a lot of people will feel that they've done something wrong to get any skin condition, including scabies.

And with men, is it less like this or what's that? Because we are getting a few messages from our male listeners, we have many who say also they share some of the same embarrassment. Yeah, I think it's important not to be too gendered about it. I mean, in my experience, some of my female patients do seem to experience more shame, particularly kind of with skin conditions in intimate areas. But I don't think that means that men don't. And just to get back to this broader picture around scabies,

we don't want to over alarm, but there is a surge. But the number of reported cases around three per a hundred thousand at the moment is that right or what are we seeing i mean it's really hard to get accurate information um because people may manage this themselves they may go to the pharmacy so we don't know for sure what we do know is that gps and dermatologists are seeing more cases and seeing more difficult to treat cases and i believe also you've seen this in your family? Yes. There's permission for me to say this I believe. There is. My son is fortunately feels less stigma or shame about this. I was visiting my son at university and him and his friend were reporting. His friend thought he was

allergic to the gloves he was using in his science labs and it turned out they both had scabies and in fact a lot of people at the university had scabies. So I was speaking to his girlfriend this morning and she was and many of them have been back and forwards to their doctors being diagnosed with eczema being given creams and it wasn't until they realized that many of them had scabies that they've managed to get on top of the problem. There you go good person to have in the family I suppose Dr Tess McPherson thank you very much. Could I just ever quickly mention that the British Association of Dermatology does have some really good resources. Yes. And also, as you mentioned last year, I've written a book which does deal with skin and stigma and shame issues, which is available, published by OUP.

And well, I think also we'll share some information on the website about what you need to know about this. Thank you very much, Dr. Tess McPherson. More messages here. I was slightly embarrassed by my very heavy periods. We're just broadening outening out but of course get in touch if you can relate to the Scabies discussion. Although I also thought I was going through menopause, I put off going to the GP at first until it became so bad I couldn't leave the house. I was bleeding

more days than not. It was during the lockdown so it was awkward. I couldn't see my own GP. However after a long story short I was diagnosed with uterine cancer and complications. I'm fine now. I have my checkup in two weeks. The NHS were amazing. Please don't ignore anything because of embarrassment. Your life is worth more than a few blushes. And a response has come in to one of our listeners who was talking about not being able to have sex. To the woman who is too embarrassed to seek help about inability to have sex, please do so.

I'm a consultant gynecologist this is a problem i see frequently there is a lot we can do to help please see your gp and ask to be referred to a gynecology clinic your gp will have seen patients with this problem a lot too please don't be embarrassed there you go um and thought this sort of message would come in i hope it hoped it would so thank you for sending it in another one here embarrassment over a painful rash on my stomach made me delay by over a week going to a doctor. Was it scabies? No, it was shingles.

And I was too late for antivirals to work. And so it carries on. I went to the GP for what I knew was scabies. I was told it was a senile itch. Luckily managed to get treatment from the pharmacy and all cleared up. Many messages. Seems it's a rich theme.

I will come back to those if I can. Keep them coming in about things you've been too embarrassed and maybe you're still too embarrassed to go and see someone about. But it was meant to be a step forward in the justice system and help great numbers of women achieve justice. In 2021 the government expanded the use of special measures in court to allow rape complainants to be interviewed and cross-examined before the trial and away from the defendant. But now a study by University College London found 20% fewer convictions for rape in cases where victims used pre-recorded evidence instead of testifying in person. 20% fewer convictions. The author of the study, Professor Cheryl Thomas Casey at UCL Faculty of Law, says rape complainants should be told that pre-recording evidence could actually harm

their chances of securing a conviction at trial. Let's see what Harriet Johnson, a criminal barrister who has prosecuted and defended in rape trials, makes of that. Harriet, good morning. Good morning. This was billed as a step forward, as something that would potentially help a lot of people, certainly the people who were affected. What do you make of this study, first of all? I think, to be honest, I don't I don't think it'll be much of a surprise to many barristers. It's it's been known for a long time colloquially that the impact of video evidence can be significantly less than the impact of having a person physically in the room telling their story to a jury face to face.

Why is that? I think it, I mean, partly just because seeing somebody talking to you about something, you know, six feet away in real life does carry more weight. You can observe more, you can interact more, even if you're not having a conversation, you can get that sort of interaction with a person that is harder to pick up on a screen. I think one thing that we also see is there's a huge variation between different police forces in the quality of video evidence. So 40% of police forces still don't have specialist rape units. And in those police

forces, at least in my experience, we tend to see much poorer quality videos. So poorer quality sound, poorer quality of questioning, so questioning that jumps about and isn't coherent and cohesive. Poor quality video where you might not have a woman centred on the screen. It might be hard to see her facial expressions and fully understand what she's saying, especially if she, as is often the case, gets upset when talking about it. So, I mean, you've painted quite a clear picture there of the complications, but we still have a reality that some will find people in your profession too difficult to be cross-examined by when they've been through, as they're alleging, something like this. So where do we come out now we can see this?

Beyond the colloquialisms, we see it in a study. I mean, it's difficult to say. Everything in rape trials is a balance. And what we have to protect is the right to a fair trial, which has to be paramount for everybody but we also have to be really blunt about the fact that we're still at a stage where only two percent of reported rapes result in suspect even being charged let alone convicted that's an appalling statistic and one that especially when you bear in mind that only 16 percent of people

who experience rape report it to the police. So the numbers we're looking at are really terrifying. So we have to do better. And this was certainly an attempt to make it easier for rape victims to give evidence without having to be in the same room as their accuser. I ought to point out that in pre-recorded evidence, they are usually in the same room as the barrister. It just means that they don't have to be in the same room as the defendant when they're when they're um but clearly though you know there's a long way to go if if this is the impact that it's having on trials and on already terrible terrible rape conviction rates would you if you were uh if you were representing a woman who was who was accusing somebody of accusing a man of raping her would you advise her not to do pre-recorded?

I mean, it's so difficult to say because you don't know what the quality of the pre-recorded evidence is going to be. And in some cases it can be very high and it can be as compelling, I would say, as having a person in the room. And there are huge advantages to it as well. You know, if there's a mistrial, if you get halfway through a trial and two jurors get ill and you have to restart, it means that the complainant doesn't have to give her evidence twice. She doesn't have to go through the ordeal of being cross-examined twice. So there are benefits to it. But I mean, it's really hard to say what to advise women to do because every woman is different and every response to rape is different. And I've seen women give very powerful evidence in person,

having been told that this option exists, to have it pre-recorded and having said, no, I want to be there in court, I want to face him and I want to look the jury in the eye and tell them what happened to me. So it's balancing how you present the evidence in the most compelling way with also how you prevent victims of rape from being further traumatised by the trial process, by having their rapist in the room staring at them while they're giving their evidence or even behind a screen, which is what we used to do before we had video recording. Knowing that they're in the room can be incredibly traumatic for some women. Do you think it also requires potentially more training of juries to be able to, you know, this idea that you're being told a story, you're being given the story from one person's perspective, therefore the emotion needs to be there?

So juries are routinely sort of given a briefing about video recorded evidence and not to treat it as a sign of guilt or innocence and not to treat it as they would any other evidence. I think more broadly, we could do with better training for jurors about about rape myths, about the way that we expect people to present, that comes across in more broader categories, things like we still see people expecting rape victims to be tearful, for example, when we know for a fact that evidentially a lot of people who've been rape victims don't present that way. They present in a calm, rational way because that's how they process it. But jurors still will then wonder why it was that this woman didn't cry if she really was raped.

Does that come into, I mean, this sounds incredibly, it's not meant to sound callous in any way, but does that come into how you prepare your client? You know, you want the world to be a certain way, but you're still in the world we're in. We're all still in the world we're in. And do you ever talk to them about those realities? Not to get them to be different, but just to see if they can access, you know, more of themselves when presenting what happened to them. So, I mean, the important thing to note is that a complainant in a rape case is not the prosecutor's client. She's just a witness, which is, again, problematic and something that I know that a lot of women struggle with,

is that they feel like the defendant's got their own barrister, but the prosecutor's there to prosecute in general, not to put forward. There's also, you know, there's very strict rules about coaching witnesses and about how to prepare them to give evidence. And all we're really allowed to say is, keep calm, take your time. If you want a break, you can have a break. Tell the truth. If you don't understand the question, say so. You know, very generic things, which is as it should be. We shouldn't be allowed to coach witnesses, but it is problematic, especially when you factor in that pre-recorded evidence isn't done through or the first evidence, the evidence in chief that a victim would usually give to a barrister directly is actually done very often in a police station to a police officer. So it's not the barrister who's asking the questions,

it's a police officer. This is usually the first account that they give to anybody or certainly to a police officer and that's where we find some difficulty with things like format of questions um arrangement of of evidence that can be quite quite problematic well it will it'll be of interest to see where this how this turns out now there is this study uh harriet thank you for giving us your response to it this morning harriet johnson a criminal barrister who has prosecuted and defended in rape trials. You're still getting in touch about embarrassing issues with your bodies and what you have or haven't done because of it. Quite a response still to our listener who's too embarrassed to see her GP about sex.

A message here, your GP will not be embarrassed. As a GP trainee, I've seen many patients about these issues many times. One patient hadn't had sex for several years and there was a simple solution that resolved the problem. I wish she'd come to see me sooner. I hadn't been embarrassed to do so. It would have saved years of discomfort for her. And one says, I've had faecal incontinence for some years

and never spoken to anyone about it. It was after you spoke about it on Woman's Hour in October 2021 that I sought help. I was eventually seen but and seen by a woman colorectal specialist but had many embarrassing encounters with more junior medics all of whom were male whilst i still have this condition it has improved enormously due to help with exercises i'm very happy to hear that i'm sorry it's been so difficult and so the messages keep coming and there's one here from one of our male listeners who's 42, interested to hear about the scabies chat.

I got it in my late teens and didn't get it diagnosed for way too long. And it was painful and very embarrassing and shameful, truly traumatizing. People need to know about it. Well done for raising awareness, says Ben. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.

Now, for the first time, Royal Mail has dedicated a set of stamps to a female pop group to commemorate 30 years since the band was formed. I am, of course, talking about the Spice Girls. They've become the sixth band to receive a stamp collection preceding them. A list of all male bands, the Beatles, Pink Floyd, Queen, the Rolling Stones and Iron Maiden. After being formed in 1994, Spice Girls' first single, Wannabe, hit the charts in 1996. And by the following year, it had gone to number one in 37 countries. The group's catchphrase, Girl Power, went mainstream,

influencing their young female fan base and older fans too. Today, some argue that they continue to shape music, culture and fashion. Others have an entirely different view, if they care at all. But I'm joined by two women who do. Lauren Bravo, a culture journalist and the author of What Would the Spice Girls Do? How the Girl Power Generation Grew Up. And DJ, broadcaster and Spice Girls fan. I think I can say that, Yinka Bikini. Good morning. Welcome to you both.

Morning. Good to have you here. Hello. Lauren, just remind us of the landscape when Spice Girls released Wannabe and the bands that were about at the time. So it was boy bands as far as the eye could see, or at least it was from where I was standing as an eight year old pop fan. Of course, we were coming out of Britpop and all the machismo that kind of went with that. There were brilliant women in guitar bands. We had American punk like Riot Grrrl.

There were amazing R&B artists. But as far as mainstream pop was concerned, record executives, I think, were still laboring under this misapprehension that only girls, sorry, girls only bought records by boys, or I should say, men. And the Spice Girls, they were told repeatedly when they started out, you know, we won't put you on the cover of magazines because they won't sell. Girls only want to buy records by boys. And so, you know, they didn't really set out to sell this message of kind of soft feminism to preteen girls. But it kind of lit a fire under them when they realized how much misogyny there was in the industry and it really became their manifesto. I was thinking back to my tapes and my CD rack this morning. And apart from Lauren Hill and Janet Jackson, everything else was boy bands, you know, and I'm a similar age to what you're

describing there. Yinka, for you, when the Spice Girls hit for me, certainly, it was different. It was an explosion, even if you didn't know itice Girls hit for me, certainly, it was different. It was an explosion, even if you didn't know it to be. And I believe you won a radio competition. Yeah. So I am one of five girls in my family. I'm the youngest of five girls. The seven kids were together and there were five girls. And so it was Spice Girls mania from the moment they dropped Wannabe until the group disbanded and I remember I must have been maybe eight maybe nine and a radio station did a competition where you had to answer the phone within three or four rings or whatever it was and you had to sing the lyrics to spice up

your life you couldn't say hello you couldn't say what's up you couldn't you had to sing the lyrics so between the hours of 7 a.m and 8 45 before we went to school in the morning i answered the phone and between the hours of 3 p.m and 6 p.m i answered the phone because i was the one who knew the lyrics to the song and we won and i think i think we only won a signed cd and a poster i didn't get it i mean i was the bottom of the pecking order. But Spice Girls were, you know, the first movie I remember going to see Spice World with my sisters. It's the first cassette that one of my sisters bought. They were very much the soundtrack to our household. And as a woman, do you think it did anything for you particularly? A legacy for you now when you look back?

Do you know, I think it was a precursor to what feminism means. When you're six or seven, you don't know that, you know, singing, you know, Girl Power and, you know, Friendship Lasts Forever has any impact whatsoever. But now I'm an adult, I think, yeah, those foundations were probably built during those playground gists when, you know, I was the default scary Spice, but I still had a good time doing it. And we were singing lyrics about women being friends. Well, on that, because Lauren, we're talking about what you've looked into with how, you know, culture is impacted and it can take a while to sometimes see the results.

There are those who accuse the Spice Girls of co-opting feminism as a marketing strategy, but there were real world effects. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we've heard so many artists kind of these days will credit the Spice Girls for being hugely influential, but they had an enormous impact beyond that. And I'll be honest, when I started writing my book, I thought maybe it was a bit of a stretch, this kind of concept. I thought maybe it was a long feature at best. And actually, as soon as I started looking back on it, thinking about my own youth, you know, interviewing other fans my age, it became very clear that you can draw a direct line from the Spice Girls to kind of what then went on to become the fourth wave of feminism. You know, there's definitely some connective tissue there. And it's true that

they weren't perfect feminists. Of course, it wasn't an academic approach. And I think it was quite hard for perhaps our mother's generation to swallow it. But like Yinka says, it was a sort of feminist starter kit. You know, it was a pair of training wheels and a good push to kind of get us going. And for a lot of us, it was the first time that we sort of encountered that idea that perhaps our gender would hold us back. And here were these kind of five incredibly loud, confident women. I mean, they wouldn't have been embarrassed talking about the cystitis, would they? I think they would have been straight at the doctor. They would have been absolutely talking about it and, you know, on top of the pops. And the fact

that they weren't that polished, and you know, they were often sort of critiqued for not being the most talented. But I think that was actually part of their charm was that they weren't that polished. And, you know, they were often sort of critiqued for not being the most talented. But I think that was actually part of their charm was that they were just so confident anyway. And, you know, it did sort of create this generation of little girls who weren't afraid to run around in the playground yelling at boys, you know, stomping our enormous shoes

and believe that we could kind of be anything we wanted to be. Yeah, those shoes, those trainers were massive, weren't they, Inga? They were huge. Have you met a few of the Spice Girls in your life yeah yeah I um I've met Emma and I've met Mel B and I am so happy they were nice because you know the whole thing about meeting your idols and are they going to be as perfect as you think they are but yeah absolutely lovely and I also went to the um reunion show as well so at Wembley and that was incredible as an adult to sort of um to see that with my adult eyes and realize what

the lyrics actually mean well yeah I mean we're always just about the lyrics it has a different experience but my first show here I was very lucky that Mel C came and sang uh Here Comes the Sun and did a reworking of that for us which was was so, so beautiful and lovely to hear her doing her thing and on her own as well. Although there are rumours, Mel B recently said just a couple of days ago, I believe, on US TV, that they're actually going to be releasing some really good news in a few weeks that involves all five of us. So as we hit the 30 years, there is apparently some good news coming. Let me ask you, Lauren, as well, about the cultural climate for women in music. I'm just aware last week, female pop stars celebrated a record-breaking year

on the UK singles chart, 31 weeks atop of the top 40. They accounted for 48.5% of all songs that reached the top 10, and seven of the year's 10 biggest songs last year were by women. Do you think you can draw a line? We can, absolutely.

But, you know, we only need to look at an artist like Taylor Swift to see that things haven't necessarily changed as much as we would hope. There's, you know, women can still achieve this phenomenal success, but there's also still this weird kind of mistrust, I think, of any woman who has that huge success with a fan base that is made up predominantly of young girls, of LGBTQ people, of anyone who perhaps doesn't fit that sort of mainstream patriarchal idea. And this constant looking to sort of trip them up, to poke holes in their success, I think that's something

that unfortunately we do still see with female artists today. This almost desire to prove that it was kind of all a con all along um you know we saw the Spice Girls often called like great business women because you know they were very keen to slap their branding on a lot of products um and it becomes this backhanded compliment almost as though there must be some great trick going on you know if you're selling millions of records it can't simply be because you're making music that people absolutely love and enjoy and want to spend money on well sometimes that obviously comes from the media but it also can come from those in the industry as well. As you're alluding to there, there's a message here.

Can we take a moment to remember Eternal, please, who preceded the Spice Girls and were adored by girls? So I think we should read that out at this point. And you were nodding there about their barriers. Yeah. What do you want to say well I was I was sort of just thinking that I do think the Spice Girls crawled so a lot of a lot of girl bands and female artists of the like um can can run and thrive now but I do think I agree with what you were saying Lauren that um there is change it just feels slower last year was a very good year and hopefully we see that more. But the barriers need to sort of be lowered or because I think that women are able now, especially with the stats that you read out, we're showing that we can sell and we can be in the mainstream and we can be in the charts. So it's just that opportunity and it seems a little far and few in between for female artists although with those stats there was some concern that it was still just a very specific group of yeah that

can get to that place um and also you know there are much older artists as well that we still need to look at not being represented necessarily in that um which i think i was reading just around one of the music critics at the papers talking about that that these figures again are skewing a slightly different picture it's not good news for all women. No, it's a start. It's a start. All right, we'll go with that. We're going to keep it light. You know, I can very easily go into a bad place with most stories a lot of the time, but we'll keep it at that point. Yinka Bikini, lovely to talk to you. Thank you very much for that. And I'm just imagining you answering the phone, especially when there was one phone in that way. When you're feeling, trust me, it was epic.

And Lauren Bravo, thank you very much. Author of What Would the Spice Girls Do? How the Girl Power Generation Grew Up. Well, talking of growing up, imagine making a landmark series about pregnancy and motherhood while being pregnant yourself. How would it make you reflect on your experience and your plans? Well, India Rackerson has done just that, producing a new Radio 4 documentary series called Child While Pregnant With Her Second. Through the lens of science, society and history, the series follows a child's development from fertilisation to their first birthday. And each episode focuses on a different topic from embryo development to childbirth, weaning and childcare. Let's take a listen. OK, so let's go to our embryos.

Let's have some. So this is extremely precious material, so of course we handle it always with attention and gently. How many embryos do you have? These are human embryos. There are 12 of them, and they are at the implantation stage, in fact. Day seven, actually. Twisting the microscope.

If you want to have a look. This is what I'm here for. Here's the focus. The opportunity to look upon something so ordinary, yet totally extraordinary. Okay, in the very centre you should see a round darker structure. Oh yeah. And there it is, life. Cells with the compulsion to divide, multiply, grow, grow, grow. The patterned, intricate, moving start of you and me there you go India Ruckuson hello good morning listening to to your own work there yeah always a joy you know first thing on a Thursday why did you want to explore this period uh I mean what a privilege to I just it's so funny I just can picture that

moment of looking at that embryo so clearly every time it's such a privilege to open up this box really isn't it and to look at life and something that is so complicated and mind-blowing that happens to all of us if we're born which we have all been um and and to sort of explore it in great detail is kind of an incredible thing to be able to do and and you asked about what is a baby if we start there and going up to the first birthday and you've got some some different definitions than perhaps you were expecting. Oh yeah some well well we yeah we it's quite interesting to think of like what what is a baby what does a baby mean and we've looked at like the very fascinating historical parenting tracts that sort of dictate how dictate how parents should

have brought up babies and what babies meant to parents so things like the overkissed baby and you know a rocky road lies ahead for the overkissed baby in the kind of late 1800s um but then also wonderful wonderful thoughts from uh uh people about Graham Music who's a child psychiatrist, and quoted Winnicott, who's a very famous child psychotherapist. And he was saying that a baby doesn't exist without the relationships around it. And that's kind of, it's such an interesting thing. And it's such a good starting point to think about this whole story in that we are so shaped by the world around us from the very moment, the very point of conception there's so much kind of influence coming in whether it's the you know the woman carrying you

or whether it's the the the world around you that sort of what's in the air what's what's being eaten what's being consumed how people feel um right up to all the influences of the people who care and love for you and the way that society is sort of structured around you so it's a great I mean what this story is is it's sort of it's it's really fun to do in that it's not a um it's not a parenting podcast thank goodness I mean there's loads of brilliant ones out there I love them they're great uh but I think I would have found that too stressful to do a parenting podcast but it's um you know it is an opportunity for us to look at how we all kind of constantly influence and affect

each other um from the very moment we're born and the the idea of going to the first birthday what what did you discover along the way uh about how how babies develop in that first year that perhaps you didn't know yeah a lot I mean lots of really interesting things and we we look a lot quite deeply at at child development but less from a sort of now your baby should be crawling and now now it's time to give it some mush banana and it's more sort of how are but you know what do we know what is the latest research that we can look at and see about how babies interact with and work within the world so there's an amazing researcher called Rebecca Stacks at MIT and she has scanned the brains of babies in MRI scanners I mean imagine the complexity of that like getting getting an adult to lie still long enough in an MRI I can't talk about me in an MRI scanner and what went on but anyway carry on yeah well exactly so new fears were found

getting little babies in there and getting them to stay still long enough but that's quite incredible and they're learning you know what you learn by by looking at the brain of a baby brain activity of a baby is sort of being able to challenge preconceptions about what a baby is, again, that question. So a sort of a traditional way of thinking, one example of what Rebecca Sachs has been finding, a traditional way of thinking is that when a baby views the world, it starts to build blocks. So like that is a shape, that is an eye, that is a nose. And then later on, a few months down the line, they start to attach emotional meaning but what they've now found is that that emotional meaning comes just as soon as all of like what they perceive around them and maybe that's something that mothers already knew deep down

but in a way it's great to have science kind of confirming that back that the emotional interaction and response to a baby is so important from the get go. Do you think, although it's not at all an advice podcast, but do you think there's anything that you have learned about being a pregnant, being a mother, excuse me, in the first year that we can or should be doing differently? Because, you know, when I've also heard this series Trailed, It's talked about not nurturing parents enough. And, you know, people are very fixated, like you say, about when a baby should do, you know, our daughter's about to turn one next week. You know, when milestones should be hit. But there isn't necessarily the thought going on about what else you could do that was, you know, good for them in that environment that you are creating. Yeah, totally. That's definitely made me think about

differently about my mothering and um and take the pressure off a bit exactly like you pull up on milestones you know there's a move in america at the moment to actually just get rid of crawling from baby development milestones because not all babies crawl it's not a crucial milestone um and it and it just makes us look it makes us sort of obsess about very very specific things with our babies when actually you know the most important thing for them is this comes up again like quite a few people have said this you know there is nothing better for your baby than your face they just love faces or like watching a washing machine go around you don't need all the gadgets and all the toys and to sort of be making sure they hit everything and the same with weaning you know we put so much pressure on

ourselves as mothers don't we on everything on feeding the amount of milk they're getting the amount of sleep they're getting are they in a particular pattern are they in a routine but what we're doing in especially in the sort of baby section of the series is trying to challenge all of that thinking and by going into the history looking back and going okay well who put these rules down of feed a baby every four hours who invented that and what was it for and it's quite interesting when you start looking and you start realizing a lot of this was laid down by men a lot of this was you know a lot of the way that we feel like parenting and i've taught to parent is a kind of post-industrialization change that happened to parenting when like

lots of different parenting advice coming out all written by men um and it didn't take into account the pressures on the mother and the sort of the constant feeling of needing to be there needing to nurture this person through every single step. I think hopefully it'd be nice if we could feel like we could all let go a little bit, be ourselves a bit more with our babies. Well, and also, you know, we're talking at a time where the mental health of women is very much in the headlines, especially around this time of their lives, with some very serious effects.

And I know that you look at that. is there something you could say about that you were able to cover everything of course no well that's the thing is that we can't cover everything but certainly we've spent time with um at a mother and baby unit looking at the care that needs to be given to people post-birth and in relation to that as well looking at how I mean that's a really crucial question at the moment isn't it sort of the impact of our experience of birth and the impact that has on our mental health as well um and there's a lot of great work going on actually in the UK around um maternal mental health but obviously so much more can be done and and I think the point is on a societal level like I think lots of women come out of the birth experience not feeling like they were able to talk about what happened.

Or there's this there's this at least or at least you are well and the baby is well, at least, you know, you have a healthy, happy baby. But it's what about, well, what if I'm desperately struggling and I and everyone's telling me that I just need to be happy and grateful all around me or what if I've I just keep getting flashbacks to things that happened to me in that hospital or you know just making sure that we can sort of change things that people have the space to talk about their experiences as a mother. Have you come down on a side with the nature versus nurture debate? No. Has anyone? I'd love that if they had. Some people very much do, yes. Well, yes.

You've talked to a lot of experts. Yeah. I feel like the whole thing within this series is that, you know, we are these amazing, intricate beings that grow and we're built and we're, and we're made of so much complicated stuff and hormones and, but we don't exist without those relationships around us. And that is so, so, so clear. And it's so clear in terms of not just the baby and who the baby is, but the mother and who the baby is but the mother and

who the mother goes on to be and how much we nurture both babies and mothers just changes just changes everything for both and fathers if they're if they're in the picture and how that works together uh well there you go india ruckus and thank you very much it's called child this series it begins on radio 4 tomorrow at 2.45. I'm looking forward to listening to the whole thing. The first five episodes will be available to listen to on BBC Sounds tomorrow as well. Thank you for giving us a taster there

and an insight of some of your thoughts. A message here. I have the mother of all embarrassing conditions, coming back to this, where you're constantly sexually aroused. It's called PGAD, persistent genital arousal disorder. I am not readily embarrassed, but it took a long time to find the name

and someone who could deal with it. Please see your GP and give them the name because not all have heard of it. That is an anonymous message here. Thank you very much for getting in touch. A lot of you anonymous, a lot of you not though, about different things which you found really difficult sometimes to go and see somebody about.

But hopefully by sharing a few this morning, you feel like you've got something off your chest. And also somebody writing in about not being able to go to the doctor may have been helped by a lot of you also getting in touch saying she should as GP. So thank you so much for that. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Will you please welcome the 2023 BBC Wreath Lecturer, Professor Ben Ansell. I don't think anybody expects to be asked to do the Wreath Lectures. So it's an enormous honour, but it's an enormous responsibility.

Hello, I'm Anita Arnand. In this year's BBC Radio 4 Wreath Lectures, Professor Ben Ansell explores our democratic future and what we must do to protect it. Democracy is our legacy from past generations and it's an obligation of ours to secure for future generations. It's up to us. That's the 2023 Reith Lectures. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.