Woman's Hour - Zhenhao Zou case, Sally Phillips, Neonatal Leave,

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Chinese PHD student Zhenhao Zou was recently convicted for drugging and raping 10 different women in both London and China. Police only managed to identify two of those 10 women, but have just announced that a further 23 women have now come forward with allegations. No victims have given media interviews before but Wanqing Zhang, senior reporter from the BBC’s Global China Unit, has managed to make contact with two of the women.Sally Phillips is the actor, writer, comedian, presenter and disability rights campaigner. Her career includes successful television British comedies such as Smack the Pony, I’m Alan Partridge, and Miranda. And she has recently reprised her role as Shazzer, in the latest Bridget Jones film - Mad About the Boy. She joins Datshiane Navanayagam to talk about her new BBC comedy series, Austin, playing an illustrator married to a much-loved children’s author performed by Ben Miller.Social media influencer Danielle Mansutti says she is suing a Harley Street plastic surgeon after she says she was left with what she describes as overly large breasts and what she says is 'a poor cosmetic appearance'. If you are someone who has an elective cosmetic procedure - how much control can you expect to have over the end result? Marc Pacifico, an aesthetic cosmetic surgeon and President of the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, and Ashton Collins, Director of Save Face - a UK-based register of safe, ethical, and qualified medical aesthetic practitioners, discuss.The Neonatal Care Act starts next week. It allows employed parents to take up to 12 weeks of additional leave on top of their maternity or paternity leave if their newborn baby stays in hospital for more than seven days. We hear from Catriona Ogilvy, founder of premature baby charity The Smallest Things, who has been fighting for this law change for 10 years.How much do you worry about the amount of time your child or children spend on their phone or computer? Have you tried to do something to limit access? We were contacted by a concerned listener who has two children aged 12 and 15. She would like tech companies to help support putting restrictions in place. To discuss the dilemma for parents and what parents can do we hear from BBC's technology editor Zoe Kleinman.Presenter: Datshiane Navanayagam Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, I'm Dashiani Navaniagam and welcome to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4. Hello and a very warm welcome to the programme this morning. In just a few moments the actor Sally Phillips will be joining me in the Women's Hour studio. You'll know her from hit comedy shows like Smack the Pony and Miranda and of course as Shazza in Bridget Jones How Could We Forget. I'll be chatting to her about her latest comedy show called Austin set between Australia and the UK which has been called a laugh out loud must see. Also today the woman who's campaigned for more than a decade for parents of babies in neonatal care to get extended parental leave. The Neonatal Care Act comes into effect on Sunday. We'll find

out how far it goes and whether more needs to be done. And are you a parent who restricts your kids screen time? Maybe you don't or you've given up. How is that working out for you? Get in touch and let us know. Maybe it's just one battle you don't want to keep having, but if you do, or you're trying to limit screens, how effective have you found screen controls? We'll be delving into the practical steps you can take. And when it comes to cosmetic surgery, how much control can you expect to have over the end result? And what if the patient and practitioner disagree? We'll be talking to an aesthetic consultant plastic surgeon about what you can do if you don't like the results. You can text the programme,

the number is 84844, text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media we're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website or of course send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100444, just watch those data charges. Now the serial rapist Sanhaohou was found guilty of drugging and raping 10 women in both London and China last month. Police had originally managed to identify two of those 10 women but said the video evidence they retrieved indicated there could be up to 50 further victims. Since the conviction 23

more women have come forward to the police with allegations against the Chinese PhD student. Detectives now say they believe Zhao's offending group is far greater. None of the victims have given media interviews until now. But I am joined by Wanxing Zhaozhang, the senior reporter from the BBC's Global China Unit who has managed to make contact with two of the women and talk to them about what happened to them. Wanxing, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. What is the latest that we know from the Metropolitan Police? So the Met Police say yesterday that 23 more women have come forward to the police with allegations against Zou and we knew that last month we had the shocking news

that the police say the victims could be up to 50 victims, 50s and now the detectives say that they believe Zou's offending group is way greater so that means that the number could be even more. And you've been speaking to four women who've come forward against Zao. Two of them were the only two identified victims by the police ahead of the trial whose allegations helped convict him. And another two of them, they only reported to the police last month

after his conviction. And this is a woman who the BBC are calling Alice, one of the victims who came forward last month. This is what she had to say. So I went to his room and lay down. The next thing, the moment I opened my eyes again, I felt he was taking off my trousers. I stopped him right away. And then I suddenly noticed he was filming. Then I immediately sobered up and I got up right away

and told him to stop. I told him I wanted to leave. While I was trying to walk out, he kept making excuses. For example, he said that he took off my trousers just to make me sleep more comfortably. When I got to the door of his room, he suddenly used a lot, a lot of force. He yanked me back from the doorway. Then I suddenly started to panic. I tried to break free from him. At the time, he was so strong that I had to cling onto the doorframe with both hands. When I threatened to scream for help,

I think he got scared. He let go of me. Alice was assaulted in London in 2021, and she came forward after his trial last month. Did she tell you what prompted her to go to the police now? Indeed as we can as we just heard from her experience was really horrible but she told me that she actually thought about reporting to the police but hesitated and the reason is that she told me that she didn't even know this is something she could report. Because one reason is that she felt that she didn't have enough evidence.

The second reason is that she believed that if you need to report to the police, something substantial had to happen. But as what we just heard, she actually managed to run away eventually, so let go of her. So she thought like probably in that case, this is not something you could report to the police. And that's why she didn't. And this sort of mentality actually happened to a lot of victims that I've talked to, because a lot of victims of Zou were back then the Chinese students here in the UK. And then, you know, it's quite daunting for them to think about, oh, to navigate how

to report to the police, how to give evidence is challenging for them, especially considering the fact that a lot of them don't speak very good English. And then, you know, like they might be here to study for one year or two years that they wanted to focus on the study. And there's also this concern that they didn't understand how the system works, they didn't understand the law and then they also feel what if their friends know, their parents know, there's also this shame among them. So that's a lot of reasons why they hesitated to report to the police. And he also had victims in China. Yes, I actually talked to one victim who said that she was raped and assaulted by Zhou in his house. So she told me, we are calling her Rachel.

So Rachel met Zhou in 2022 on a dating app. And then it was the first day, she told me like back then that when they were having conversation online and so always describe it to her that, oh, I'm very good at mixing drink when I'm in the UK, I always make a lot of drinks to my friend. So the first time when they were out,

they decided to have a drink. At first she thought they were going to a bar, but eventually she realized that Zoe actually drove her directly to his house and then she remembered that Zou actually turned his back on her and then make a green color cocktail and then after just drunk one third of the glass she felt like she couldn't move anymore and then even if she was still conscious she couldn't speak. And then at even if she was still conscious, she couldn't speak. And then at this moment, Zhou started to bring her to the bedroom.

And then we know what happened. So the next day, she did think about report to the police, because she knew very, very confidently that was Ray. But eventually, she still hesitated. And the reason was that the first, she didn't know how to persuade the police or other people, how to make them believe the fact that she decided to go to his place to have a drink, you know, for a date doesn't mean that she's consensual to the sex. And another reason is that this incident happened in Dongguan, which is a city in Zhou's hometown.

And then she described it's a small city. And she was afraid that if she reported to the police, what if they accidentally made other people know? And then what if her friends know and her parents know? And then she felt like they might judge her and say like oh why you went out with with a guy so late it was your fault so it's all those kind of thinking that stop a woman from reporting to police in the first time. There is one woman who did come forward to police in London in 2023 the BBC are

calling her Beth what happened in her case? So she met Zoe in 2021 also on a dating app and the first time she met Zoe and then she described they just studied math together because Zoe had a PhD. She probably thought he's smart, he could help her and then she described everything was okay, nothing too weird. And then she was even adding that she found him a little bit bored and that's why she went home and nothing happened. And then the second time, the two met again together with a couple of other friends at the party. And after the party, Zhou proposed to her saying that, oh, come to my place for another drink.

And then she believed, she thought back then, oh, since the first day she seems to be normal, I can come again. But then this time, after a couple of drinks, she started to feel very dizzy. And then eventually she passed out and she got raped. And after that, which is after she reported to the police, the police later found that Zhou actually also filmed her when she was unconscious.

So after she was, Beth was the only woman who actually reported to the police after she got raped and she told me that the experience was not smooth at all. That actually made her withdraw her case in the first place. And that was because she felt that it was just a very overwhelming and stressful situation. And then she didn't remember a lot of details about him. For example, his address, his name. And then there was also some translating issue because her English was not very good, so eventually she just felt it was too overwhelming

and she decided to withdraw the case. And I think we have a clip of Beth that we can play now. I called the police and after I called them I did a video interview. Back then I didn't know his name. I didn't know his address. I could only give general information. I was feeling very stressed. And since it didn't move forward immediately, I decided to withdraw

because there was a lot going on. The second time the police approached me, they mentioned that they had discovered videos. I had to know about them. I didn't think someone could be so sick to put a hidden camera in the bedroom. He looked like a human being. I couldn't tell he was such a monster. I thought for a long time that I wasn't an important part of the

case against Joe. It was only after the trial that I realized only two victims had testified. So many more victims are coming forward now. What are the police saying? Will the Met bring a new case? Are they hoping to do so? Yes, the Met say that they are still walking on their through their way about the 23 potential new cases and some of the people were definitely not identical to those featured in those secret

footage or from the charged cases so far. So they say that it speaks to the fact that his offending group is actually far greater than that they had realized. And they also say that it has not been ruled out the fact that there could be a second trial for Zhou, and they also say there is certainly a case to discuss with the Crown Prosecution Service, given the number of the women coming forward. And this case is very unique, not just in the scale of the assault and how he was able to carry it out, but also in the fact that so many victims have come forward after he was convicted, when usually

it's the other way around. And social media played a role in this, didn't it? Yes, indeed. So as we were discussing before, Beth was the only woman and first woman who reported to police after her rape. And we also talk about, you know, the not great experience for the first time when she reported to police. And after that, she felt very frustrated and she decided to, you know, write sort of a warning post on social media saying, having some description of so saying that, oh, girls don't go out with him if you're in London, he's dangerous. And then the second victim who happened to be the only two victims that the police were able to identify actually saw that post and actually talked to her. We are calling her Clara. And what she told me was that one day,

she was actually, she had the same experience in 2021. So that was actually way earlier than Beth's experience. So at first, Clara also met Zoe and then she also had a very good opinion of him. And then the different situation was that she actually had one consensual sex with him and then but the second time she described that the second time when they were out for drink again and then she believed that

Zou had drugged her and then she start to feel very unwell and then she told me she was vomiting outside of a restaurant in Chinatown. And then the next moment when she woke up, she was lying on Zoe's bed and then seeing Zoe raping her. So Clara's experience happened in 2021, but she also back then didn't think about reporting to the police because she thought, you know, all those reasons, because she thought, you know, all those reasons

because she believed it would be too hard to prove to the police that especially she already had the first consensual sex. So it was after she saw Beth's social media post and then she believed that, oh, that's actually him. And then that's how she came forward after. OK, thanks very much, Wang Xing. Well, the Met has since expressed regret over how they handled allegations and they say they want to avoid situations where victims feel like they're maybe not being taken seriously or, heaven forbid, being disbelieved in their words. Additional training is now being rolled out to all frontline officers. And if you have been affected by anything that you've heard

there, support links are available on the BBC Action Line. Now my next guest has just joined me in the BBC Women's Hour studio, Sally Phillips. Hi there. Hello, Sally is the actor, comedian, writer and disability rights campaigner whose career covers some of the most successful household names in British TV comedy, from Smack the Pony to I'm Alan Partridge and Miranda. And in films, you have of course recently reprised your role as Shazza in the latest Bridget Jones instalment Mad About the Boy. And you're now starring in a new comedy series coming to the BBC, Austin, where

you're playing Ingrid, an illustrator wife of a much-loved children's author played by Ben Miller, who discovers that he has a son just as he's about to get cancelled but decides to use his son as his new route back into acceptance I should say. So he's got no interest in getting to know him as a person but he sees that because he's autistic he feels got no interest in getting to know him as a person, but he sees that because he's autistic, he feels that he might be able to exploit that to get a sympathy vote. Well, tell us a bit more about the series, because this has been a massive hit in Australia. It has.

It's available tomorrow to watch on iPlayer. I've watched the first three episodes and I thought it was great. Tell us about Austin. Okay, well, the whole series has been devised by Darren Ashton, the Australian director, who is very good friends with Ben. He got in touch with Ben, do you think this is a goer? After they saw Michael Theo starring in Love on the Spectrum, which is a reality dating show for people on the autistic spectrum in Australia. And Michael was just a standout character and all of Australia fell in love with him as he went looking for love with his heart on his sleeve.

He didn't find anyone on that show. So Darren started to think, well, I wonder if we can make a show in which he does find love. He started talking to Ben, who is actually a children's author. Ben then asked me to write it and I said no because I can't meet a deadline. Well I can but I prefer to write my own things because I'm so slow. But then he sort of on screen he proposed to me so would you like to be my on-screen wife. So we ended up with this author-illustrator pair, they do

picture books, suddenly discovering they have this sort of cuckoo in the nest, a 28 year old autistic man becoming part of their family. And Michael is doing his pretty much his acting debut, he'd done a tiny role in a kids TV show. I mean that it's incredible when you watch it because you never know he's never acted before. You would never know. He's so so good. And we were all sort of, I don't know about Brace, but we were wondering what his, you know, what reasonable adjustments we're going to have to make for him because you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic

person and everybody's different. And we had to make none. None. He's just so good. He's got, he's so inhabits the character. You care for him the minute he comes on screen. He's really funny. And it just goes to show we should never really have had people without disabilities. I mean I don't even know if you call it a disability with Michael because he doesn't have a learning disability. But you know people who are neurotypical playing neurodiverse characters it's just so rich to get him actually doing it. And of course he fed in how the character should be. So he felt quite strongly that young Sheldon, they portray people on the autistic spectrum as not having emotions and not caring about others. Whereas he's a fantastically generous

human being and has strong emotions. He's very passionate about many things. Yes, Thomas the Tank Engine, but also the environment and his friends. He's a really loyal and wonderful friend. So I think the character's really great and he's really happy with the portrayal and we really hope you love it. Well, I'm sure people will and like I said, they can watch it tomorrow. He's got fantastic comic timing. He does. But tell us about your role, because you play quite an interesting character in it,

Ingrid. Yes, well I mean I think, yes. Well we all input into our characters, and I liked the idea, I love screwball comedies, and I feel that in the 40s and 50s, well in the 20s, women were allowed to be funny in the movies. And then there came this time when we weren't allowed to be funny, people became anxious about laughing at women. But in those movies, the women are quite often heiresses. So I fancy the idea of, because Ben and I were going to have to

go fast because Michael's timing is slow and we're kind of an egg cup to hold him up. And so I wanted to be, you know, ridiculously privileged. And she's someone who wants to be an airhead, but is being forced by the terrible behaviour of her husband. I mean, she does have to sort of pull him back down to ground, doesn't she? Yes. Well, it's quite interesting people's responses to her because in Australia people are saying, oh, you know, you don't let them get away with anything. Whereas here people are being more like, why does she put up with him? She's so patient. I did think that in the first episode. I did think you had the patience of the saint.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's just interesting the different cultures' responses. And I think in Australia people are more polite about their partners. They probably have the same divorce rate but we have this kind of habit of you know bants don't we, husband and wife bants where we put our husbands down and they put us down, her indoors and green card and all of that. Probably not very healthy but yes she's yeah she's very patient and she has put her artistic dreams on hold. We have to say she's not a brilliant artist. I say that with my heart and my mouth

because the director's daughter did all her illustration by decay. But you know, she probably wouldn't have ended up, you know, having an exhibition at Tate Modern. But she has poured her whole life into this joint endeavor. And then her, then Julian, Ben's character, trashes it by retweeting a neo-Nazi. And promptly gets canceled.

He gets canceled, so Big Bear gets canceled, becomes a, you know, a far right meme on the internet. And the marriage is sort of threatened because there's this autistic son, it turns out that he was unfaithful to her, you know, a far-right meme on the internet and the marriage is sort of threatened because this, there's this autistic son, it turns out that he was unfaithful to her very early on in the marriage. So the whole relationship has happened since this infidelity. And I said earlier you're a disability rights campaigner, how much... I don't know that I really think about myself that way, but I have got a child with a disability

and we are in a very privileged position because of my job and all the rest of it, so I think we have a responsibility to others in the community. So I don't know about being a campaigner because there are others who really do that so effectively and well and I just you know ask them for help when I'm coming on a program like this and they send me the latest updates. I don't know how effective I am but... Very effective I would say. And well I wanted to ask because your character is much warmer to Austin at the beginning compared to Ben who is definitely colder.

And given what you were saying I wondered you know how much of your own personal experience did you bring to that character? I don't know that's quite it that's a very interesting question. On some level I was trying not to bring it because I mean Michael and I used to check in with each other because We were getting on better than Ingrid and Austin were getting on so he had to dial it had to dial it back but I think Ingrid is very sort of accepting and she has an absolute allergy to being bitter and also I as

as a comedian I don't like characters who are self-pitying unless it's really you know for huge for comic effect or I sort of rebel against this snipey snarky wife role from 70s sitcoms where you go, I would have spent the whole time going, oh Julian, oh Julian, you know, the idea that he's behaving terribly. But I suppose I probably, I mean I might have taken the job if it didn't involve Michael but I wouldn't have taken it if there was a neurotypical actor playing an autistic character because representation does really matter to me.

And you mentioned your son Ollie has Down syndrome, has he watched it? No he hasn't. We'll watch it on Friday. But he has met Michael. He's met Michael. Michael came to stay with us and Ollie, I mean I have to say I'm incredibly lucky. All my on-screen kids, all of them have been amazing. And Olly really likes meeting these sort of fake, these screen brothers and sisters. And so Michael came to stay with us and Olly was totally starstruck. And it's really encouraged him in the idea that he could maybe one day be an actor and he has done his first Job his first couple of jobs this year. Tell us about it. He goes live on Channel 5

There's a program called mix mops, which is has been created by Rebecca Atkinson and Who of toys like me and they've created an ultra access interactive version of this stop motion animation where you can choose your access requirements. So if you have a young child with Down syndrome who would benefit from watching the show with Macathon signs, if you click Macathon you'll get Ollie doing, like Mr Tumble, doing three signs a week. So I'm very proud of him for that. And like you said, he's met Michael and loves him. He's met Michael and loves him.

And no one can meet Michael and not love him for the record. And it's interesting what you said about how important representation is. Yes. In showing people that they can go on. Yes. And do whatever they want. And actually, they can bring a whole load of skills

that are unique to them and that are valued and also we all benefit because this is you see Michael and he's a comic genius Really? I mean he's you know diamond in the rough. He's got technique to learn and all the rest of it Industry hasn't broken him yet But looking pretty chipper So great he's just so great. And we would be, you know, we would be without that great performer. And the thing that was so interesting was we thought it was going to be, you know, we were prepared for it, prepared to do a lot of work to include him and give him access, but he didn't really need anything. then Jess Park the producer in the UK because it's a co-pro between

the UK and Australia actively selected for Neurodiversity in our UK crew and there was no difference. No. So it just goes to show it's just not as hard to include people as people might think. Now look, I can't let you go without mentioning Bridget Jones and what that was like for you. What was it like being reunited back with everyone? It's pretty emotional. I mean, you go and you check in with this world and with these characters, well, four times over 25 years. And did you expect there to be a fourth time? No, I've been

absolutely wrong 100% of the time. If people asked me after the first one, will be another and I said no and then we did the second one and I didn't think it was as good so I said no I don't think we'll do another and then there was a third and they said will there be another and I said no we really have finished now and you asked me now and it really that was definitely intended to be the final one I can tell you that. So you don't think there'll be a fifth? Well I don't know it's been enormously successful and I guess but I don't think there will be one for a very long time. So if there were one I don't think there would be one for a very long

time but as I say my track record is 100% incorrect. Yes well there'll be lots of people out there keeping their fingers crossed. She's so great isn't she? Yeah. And I find it so fascinating that Bridget Jones is the epitome of British womanhood and James Bond is the epitome of British manhood on screen. And just the idea of those two just don't go together at all do they? No, not at all. And hence our national problem. But Sally Phillips, it has been a pleasure seeing you in the Women's Hour studio.

Thank you very much. And Austin begins on BBC One tomorrow, Friday the 4th of April at 9.30pm and will be also available on the BBC iPlayer. Now, a social media influencer Danielle Mansooty says she is suing a Harley Street plastic surgeon after she says she was left with what she describes as overly large breasts. And what she says is a poor cosmetic appearance. We understand that the surgeon is disputing these claims. If you are someone who has an elective cosmetic procedure, how much control can you expect to have over the end result?

And what happens if you are unhappy with how you look? Most importantly, who decides what looks good? Well, earlier I spoke to Mark Pacifico, an aesthetic consultant plastic surgeon and president of the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, and to Ashton Collins, the director of Safe Face, a UK-based register of safe, ethical,

and qualified medical aesthetic practitioners for non-surgical procedures which tend to be more common than elective surgical procedures. I started off by asking Mark, to what extent is a plastic surgeon involved in the aesthetic of a procedure? It's a difficult question to answer. Whilst the plastic surgery is key in taking a view on the aesthetics, I think we need to explore what you really mean by that question actually. Well in terms of how much control do they have over what the patient wants and what the patient will end up getting? Okay well I think the initial problem and it's sort of alluded to in part of the

question is that there is a perception that people can come in and treat plastic surgery like a commodity and tell us what they want and we'll be able to do that or we will do that and fundamentally we're doctors first and surgeons second and I think I really want to understand why the patients come in in the first place in the big picture why at this time in their life, why is their concern bothering them enough to come to see me and figure out what a good result will look like. And secondarily, but equally importantly, I need to understand what is possible in that patient situation. And that relates to not only their anatomy and their tissue type,

but psychological aspects and other aspects. So the aesthetics is tied into all of this, but it's a much bigger question than purely aesthetics. I take your point about trying to understand all the different motivations behind why the patient is coming to see you. How common is it for there to be a gap in the expectations between a patient and what the doctor feels can be delivered? And how easy are those conversations to have to be honest because you're dealing with people in some cases who? Have very very strong motivations for why they might want something the way they do You've hit on the absolutely key issue in all plastic surgery consultations, which is communication and expectation management.

And interestingly, my colleague, Nora Nugent, who's a current BAPS president, and I wrote a paper on exactly this with 50 other world-leading plastic surgeons about how we communicate and make sure we're on the same page as our patients in terms of what they're understanding, are they understanding what we're saying, And how are we ensuring that their expectations are realistic? And how can we pick up on those people who there may be a disconnect with? So you're absolutely right. And the key part of the consultation is that more philosophical and global approach rather than it just being a procedure or a result people might envisage they can choose or pick out of a catalogue.

It's certainly not like that at all. Is it hard for you to push back at a patient? For me, no, because I'm pretty strict, but that's me. I have very strict red lines. And another colleague of mine has a very good phrase that I adopt sometimes. It's not what you want, it's what you can have. And what we mean by that is in relation to your anatomy

and other medical, physiological factors that may limit your choice. And also the considerations I will take into account both in the short, medium and long term for that patient that they are likely not to have even considered because they would be unaware to consider them. So what I hope is that I can communicate this well with my patients and we will be playing as a team together effectively and I would rather not operate on someone than make a mistake by going ahead when we weren't aligned in our thinking.

Ashton, let me bring you in here because you're the director of Save Face. What are the conversations that happen in non-surgical procedures? Are they the same? Well, it depends who your practitioner is, to be honest. And in non-surgical procedures, as opposed to surgical procedures that Mark was just discussing, the playing field is very different. So anybody can do procedures like dermal fillers from anywhere You don't really need to have any qualifications or training You don't even need to be insured and so there are a lot of unscrupulous injectors out there that don't take patients through an appropriate Consultation and consent process. They don't really understand what their expectations are what their motivations for the treatment are, it's very transactional, they're often lined up in a waiting room, they go in, they have the

procedure done, they pay and they're sent on their way and so there is none of that relationship between the injector and the patient that is paramount to meeting their expectations and assessing that person to make sure that they are suitable for the treatment and that the benefits of that treatment outweigh any associated risk, whether that be physical or psychological. And that is something that we see time and time again, is that patients are either left with outcomes that they are very unhappy with or severe complications that practitioners are either unable or unwilling to treat when things go wrong. And Ashton, you know, in this case, Danielle Mansouty has filed a legal case, how common is that? And would this be an option if it was a non-surgical procedure?

Often with non-surgical procedures, and again, it's very much dependent on the injector, but because, and a lot of the complaints that we deal with, you know, over the last 10 years, we've helped over 15,000 members of the public with their complaints and their concerns. And 85% of those treatments have been carried out by non-medical injectors. So laypeople, beauty therapists, hairdressers. And oftentimes, because those people are not governed by a regulatory body like the GMC or the NMC, they can't see a complaint to make sure that person is held to account from a professional perspective.

But also, if there's no insurance in place, it's very, very difficult to pursue any compensatory claim because even on a no-win-no-fee basis, those lawyers won't take on that case because there's very little chance of recovering any costs. And so somebody could be permanently disfigured, but not be able to seek any redress, whether that be legally or financially. And in this case here, Danielle claims that the surgery has negatively affected her career. I mean, if you have a client that relies on their appearance for their income, it massively raises the stakes of what they're going through and and what you're performing as well, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. And you know, we have people who's, you know, they've lost their jobs because of procedures that have gone wrong. They've been unable to, you know, leave the house. They don't want to talk to people. They, you know, and especially if those jobs are reliant on their physical appearance, being on camera, not only how you feel within yourself, but your confidence, it can impact that. But if you don't look the way that your followers or your fans are expecting you to look, it can have a real detriment impact on your career. Mark, is this something that you're aware of and how much does this play into the expectations

of how far you may carry out a surgery when someone comes to you? To be honest, it doesn't have any influence and I've had a number of very high-profile patients who we see on our screens in different forms and my advice and my strictness in my consultation remains the same. We're all people, we're all governed by our human psychology and expectations and just because someone might have a particular job and sure it might have more of a potential impact on the career doesn't make the decision making any different in my point of view. How would you advise patients and doctors to to go about approaching these conversations? I think

taking a step back we're often so focused on the specific target or procedure that we sometimes fail to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. And I think for anyone considering a procedure, I'd really ask them to reflect why, why now, what a good result would look like. And would they still be glad they had it done if the result wasn't quite what they hoped it would be? And I certainly know that there is absolutely no correlation between satisfaction or happiness with outcome and objective outcome. So there are some people who have fantastic outcomes who are disappointed and some people who have less good outcomes who are absolutely over the moon.

And it shows you how important our mindset is when we go into these sorts of decisions. That's very interesting and very difficult to navigate, especially if you're the surgeon. Yes, but with experience and awareness, it's easier to navigate. So I say to people, if you're able and you think you're going to be able to look back after a procedure and see your previous self and say, I'm so glad I've got a real improvement since then, then we're in a good place. The people who I think are storing up real problems for themselves are people with some perhaps unrealistic aesthetic ideal outcome in their mind that they may wish for because that's rarely ever achievable and those people are setting themselves up

for a big fall, however good their result is. Ashton, what would you advise patients going into into a non-surgical procedure? How best should they navigate it so that they don't end up feeling disappointed afterwards? Always seek out a regulated healthcare professional to undergo these types of treatments. We only accredit medical professionals to carry out these procedures and we take them through a really robust 116 point check to make sure that they are qualified, insured and they operate from safe environments and so I would urge them to check the Safe Face Register. That was Ashton Collins and Mark Pacifico. Now how do you feel

about clutter? Do you have the secret to being a successful minimalist or are you struggling to cope with the bulging contents of your home? Maybe it's the thought of tackling someone else's stuff like an ageing parent. That's overwhelming. Well, we'd love to hear your thoughts, experiences, your advice and decluttering dilemmas for a future episode of Women's Hour coming soon. You can email us, of course, via our website. You can text the programme on 84844, text charged at your standard message rate and on social media it's at BBC Women's Hour or you can WhatsApp us. Now from Sunday the 6th of April, parents whose newborn babies have to go into neonatal

care will be entitled to additional pay and leave. The Neonatal Care Act allows employed parents to take up to 12 weeks of additional leave if their baby stays in hospital for more than seven consecutive days. That's on top of their maternity or paternity leave. Parents will be paid for this additional leave at the statutory rate if they earn more than 123 pounds

per week and have worked for their employer for more than 26 weeks. Katriona Ogilvie is the founder of the premature baby charity The Smallest Things and she's been fighting for this change in law for over 10 years. I spoke to her earlier on how it felt to see what she'd been campaigning for finally take effect and whether she feels more needs to be done. It has been a long campaign, more than 10 years now, since they started the campaign for neonatal leave and pay.

It's a brilliant feeling, but it is also bittersweet. We know there has been hundreds and thousands of families who have been missing out over the years. This new legislation was first announced by Theresa May. That's quite a few prime ministers ago which tells you how many parents have missed out. But I do know from my own personal experience of having prematurely born children, just how much this will mean and what a difference it will make to those families who will be

able to access those entitlements when they finally come through. Tell us a little bit about this new law, what exactly will it give parents in this situation? So for parents who have a baby born prematurely or poorly and are admitted to neonatal intensive care, they will have access to up to 12 weeks additional leave and statutory pay and that really will be able to support them to be with their baby or babies in hospital. But really crucially it's understanding that that journey doesn't end for many families when they do bring their babies home from hospital. So it not only gives them more time when their baby's in hospital but it almost gives them back that time once their

baby comes home from hospital. And you said you were in this situation yourself and you were inspired to start your charity, The Smallest Things, because of your experience. Tell us what happened to you. So in my first pregnancy, I was 29 weeks pregnant. I woke up one morning, my alarm clock went off and as I got out of bed my waters broke very suddenly, very unexpectedly and I found myself a couple of hours later having given birth to a very tiny, very unexpectedly. And I found myself a couple of hours later, having given birth to a very tiny, very poorly baby, who had been whisked away immediately to intensive care.

I got a little glimpse of him as he was being taken away. And that really started our roller coaster journey through neonatal intensive care. My background is as a children's occupational therapist. I actually worked in neonatal intensive care before I had my own children and I sort of thought I knew what it was like but it's not until you're a parent and live through that experience of seeing a tiny fragile baby in an incubator hooked up to life support machines and changing your very first nappy through incubator, portholes,

alarms going off left, right and centre and having to go home every day, really feeling like you're still trying to care for a baby that you can't be with. And you were in hospital just a few hours later after your son was born and that was when you were told that your maternity leave had started. Did you know that? Were you aware of that? I was not aware of that at all and in fact before a family support worker came to make sure that I told my boss and spoken to the HR department, we'd been seen by the consultant who told us that our baby was poorly but he was doing well and that he would almost certainly be in hospital until his due date and I thought, gosh, no,

that's two months visiting him every day in hospital. And then a couple of hours later, a family support worker came and dropped the bombshell that my maternity leave had started. And at that moment, I just felt robbed, robbed of not only my final trimester of being pregnant, robbed of being able to prepare and get ready to bring a new baby back to our family home, but just robbed of that time to be with him once we did finally get home. And then of course, when we finally did get home, our journey wasn't over. Samuel had lots of readmissions to hospital, lots of follow-up appointments, but by the time we were back home from hospital, it was already time to start thinking about returning to work.

And it just seemed so, so soon. So it's fantastic that, you know, there will be up to 60,000 parents now who will benefit from these new entitlements and won't have to sort of go through some of those difficult decisions that we have to make as a family. And it's also a massive financial strain as well as the emotional strain. I mean, you know, at the time when you were going through this, this law obviously wasn't in effect. Mentally, how did you cope? It was really tough. So so absolutely there's a cost both financially and emotionally. So the cost of having a baby in hospital is high. If

you think about the parking charges, the travel charges, if you have other children, childcare costs, eating at the hospital. We'd also plan to save a bit more money before I went off on my maternity leave and you know like everything else that had been taken away, that time had also been taken away. But the emotional cost on mums and dads going through that experience of neonatal intensive care is enormous. Yeah, parents say to us that it isn't during the time in the unit that it hits them, it's actually once they bring their baby home from hospital, when they can really sort of process what they've been through.

And how is Samuel now? Because I know you had another son Jack who was also born prematurely a while later. How are they both? They are both doing fantastically well and you can tell how long we've been campaigning for this new legislation because they are both now in secondary school. Like a lot of children born prematurely, they do have a few additional needs. So for example, Sam has some coordination difficulties and as a charity, the smallest things really recognises that there is a lasting journey for parents who've been through that trauma, but also for the children as well as they grow older and we have a

PremiWare award for schools as well to recognise the additional needs that some children who've been through that really premature and early start might have and how to support them in that lasting journey. And this law comes into effect on on Sunday. What has this journey been like? Could you have envisaged this moment 10 years ago, over 10 years ago when you started? Oh, that's a difficult question to ask because it feels like such a long journey. But you know, our hope was always to change the law. And actually, back 10 years ago, we found

that many people weren't speaking about their experiences. And it really was the power of the parent voice. It was sharing just what it's like to have a baby in neonatal intensive care. But I think we always had a sense that it would change, it had to change. And along the way, one of the big things that has supported the campaign was employers actually starting to do the right thing. The smallest things, we have an employer with heart charter, which for years now have been asking employers to already support families by extending leave. The new entitlements coming in our statutory entitlement so we are still encouraging

employers to go above and beyond that. And some babies will be very poorly and even after maternity leave with the extension has ended parents will have to take time off to help and to go to doctor's appointments and hospital appointments. Are employers, from what you're hearing, are they understanding of that when it comes to offering, I guess, more flexible working and additional time off?

Absolutely. The really nice thing is that we are hearing more and more good news stories of employers being really supportive and understanding that this isn't just a one-off event, that when parents do come back to work they're likely to need additional time off or flexible working patterns. In our employer with heart charter that's one of the recommendations that we make is that in terms of how employers can support staff back to work, how they can ensure that mums and dads have a successful return

back to work but also then that flexibility if and when they need it if their baby for example is re-admitted to hospital or requires follow-up appointments. And you said earlier we know that 60,000 new parents will be helped by this law, but it won't cover everyone at the moment, will it? It won't cover everybody. We know that parents who are self-employed won't be able to access additional support during the time that their baby or babies are in hospital. It's something that we continue to campaign for, to recognise those parents and families that will miss out on the legislation. There are a lot of families that will miss out and we do think more needs to be done

to support them as well. That was Catriona Ogilvie, the founder of the Premature Baby charity, The Smallest Things. And if you've been affected by anything you've heard today, as I I mentioned earlier you can go to the BBC action line where you'll find links to support. Now screen time, that perennial issue, how much do you worry about the amount of time your child or children spend on their phone, laptop or tablet and have you tried to do something to limit access? Well we were contacted on Instagram by a listener who told us, I'm a mum struggling to control the amount of phone screen time my kids have aged 12 and 15,

who both have a diagnosis of ADHD. Has anyone realised that even if you restrict screen time by setting down time periods, or only allowing some apps, that apps such as Snapchat are not controlled plus kids can use the app for one more minute in quotation marks over and over again an unlimited number of times. The tech companies need to shut this option down. Well to discuss the dilemma for parents and what practical steps parents can take as well as the responsibilities of the platforms themselves I'm joined by the BBC's technology editor Zoe Kleinman. Zoe, hello, a warm welcome to Women's Hour.

Thank you, good morning. Look, as a technology journalist, what did you make of what this listener had to say? I had a look into it and I think what she's referring to is actually an Apple tool, One More Minute, and it's designed to stop the phone just cutting off if you're in the middle of doing something important, sending a message, writing an email, whatever. It can't be removed or overridden, it's part of Apple's operating system. So your options are you can set your child's account to

be below the age of 13, at which point I understand it doesn't kick in. You can add a passcode to the screen time setting, but you obviously have to make sure your child doesn't figure out the passcode. Or you can get a different phone because it's not on Android phones, and indeed you can get something that's not a smartphone and that will automatically limit the apps that they will be able to use because many of them, most of them in fact, don't work on what are known as feature phones so that's your kind of little Nokia which is really only for calling and texting if you're that worried. So this one more minute function, what you're saying, it's not actually linked to an app then, it's part of the the Apple iPhone?

Yeah, I think it's really confusing there are so many parental controls aren't there? I mean I'm a parent myself and there are different parental controls for all of the different apps that your children are using on top of that you've got device level parental controls so that will be options that come with the phone that you buy whether that's an Android phone like a Samsung or an iPhone like or an iPhone that's made by Apple and then on top of that there are also controls that you can put on your Wi-Fi router itself. So there are so many different tools and I think it

confuses a lot of people. The issue is that it's all very nuanced isn't it? I think there's a tendency to just think, screen time bad but I do think we need to look at the quality as well as the quantity of screen time. What exactly is your child doing and is it causing them any harm? Well you mentioned your parent yourself, lots of listeners getting in touch with us today. One listener said my seven and four year old have always had their screen time limited at home to 30 to 60 minutes they don't have any access to devices such as phones or tablets because I've always been firm on this they accept it but I am saddened by the fact that at school they stare at the screen for at least half of the day

especially when the World Health Organization recommends no more than two hours of screen time a day I really hope the government can set tougher limits especially on iPhone usage before my two get to secondary school. And I know this from friends myself who have kids who are hoping that more restrictive uses come in. We know that the Online Safety Act recently came into full effect. Has that made any practical difference to tech companies' responsibilities? So the Online Safety Act has really only just come into full effect and there won't be anything coming out to that for a little while. I think

we're now in a period where the tech companies have to say how they're going to comply with it. So we're not going to see anything in the immediate future coming from the Online Safety Act, but it very much does put the emphasis on tech companies to take responsibility here rather than parents. And I think it's a really interesting discussion, isn't it, about who is in charge here. Recently I interviewed the boss of Roblox, which is an absolutely massive gaming platform. It's the most popular games platform used by young children aged between eight and 12 in the UK. And said you know we have loads of parental controls there's loads of support we we we try to keep the platform as safe as we possibly can but fundamentally if you don't want your

kid on roblox don't let them on it you know you're the parent it's your decision and it caused a lot of debate with some people saying actually he's right you know if you if you really want to not have your kid on screens don't give them screens you know take away the Wi-Fi take away the device you can do that but If you really want to not have your kid on screens, don't give them screens. You know, take away the Wi-Fi, take away the device, you can do that. But of course that's not the world we live in, is it? You know, cars on the road are also very dangerous and we don't pretend there aren't any cars on the road. We teach children how to cross the road and there is a growing sort of counter voice which says,

what's really important here is digital literacy rather than, you taking everything away which is the nuclear option. Well what do you do though if your kids are just more tech savvy than you? Because there are so many workarounds out of all this stuff. Yeah there are and you know that's a societal problem isn't it? I mean it's a million years since I was a teenager but I was always trying to get round rules as well in a sort of pre-internet world. So I don't think that's going to go away. I think what's important is conversation, ask them why. What is it that they want to do, that they're trying to get around your rules? Why do they want to do it? Why is it so important? If you really don't want it, I think you have

to be very tough and you are then saying this device is going or this internet is going and you're just not going to be able to access it. But I don't think that tech can necessarily by itself solve that societal problem. Another interesting thing, I heard Nick Clegg, Sir Nick Clegg, do a talk last year. He is a very senior at Metta which owns Instagram and WhatsApp and he said despite offering lots of parental controls for Instagram particularly, there's really low take-up of them, parents don't use them and he was asking why that was and I think part of it is there's just so many, you know, I think there were dozens of them for Instagram alone and your child is

not going to be only using Instagram so you're sort of constantly facing this situation where you're setting up these controls, having to revisit them and set them up for different specific activities as well. It is hard work. There's no denying that. And the problem is that it's so ubiquitous. You could be doing everything you can and of course they go to school or they go to someone's house and there's a smartphone there that they've suddenly got access to. Yes exactly I mean it is everywhere but but arguably if that is the world that we're living in you know the point becomes how do you teach children to live in it responsibly rather than trying to pretend it isn't there or or

tell them they can't have it and I think you know there is a massive conversation to be had about education at a younger age. Thank you very much that was Zoeman, the BBC's technology editor. Don't miss Women's Hour tomorrow, where Nuala will be taking an in-depth look at the experience of being a woman in prison. We'll hear from former prisoners and prison guards, as well as some of the people who are shaping the future of women in our criminal justice system. That's all for today's Women's Hour.

Join us again next time. Hi, we're the VanTulaken, the identical twin Dr. VanTulaken's Chris and Zand. In What's Up Docs, we're diving into the messy, complicated world of health and wellbeing. We are living in the middle of what I would call a therapeutic revolution. But it can sometimes be hard to know what's really best for us. Do I need to take a testosterone supplement? How can I fix my creaky knees? Why do I get hangry?

Is organic food actually better for me? We're going to be your guides through the confusion. We'll talk to experts in the field and argue about what we've learned and share what we've learned and maybe disagree a fair bit too. No we won't. What's up, Docs from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds.