Woman's Hour - Zla Makva, 'Bicycle face', Lebanon, The Traitors

Episode Date: January 24, 2025

Zla Mavka is a non-violent all-female Ukrainian resistance group, fighting against Russian occupation. It spreads newsletters and shares experiences aiming to support others. Anita Rani is joined by the Guardian's chief culture writer, Charlotte Higgins, who has spoken to some of the members and Tetyana Filevska, the curator at the Ukrainian Institute to find out more.When bicycles were first invented in the 19th century, the main danger associated with them wasn't the design or lack of brakes. For women, it was in fact a health problem called “bicycle face”. Tamsin Johnson, PhD candidate and lecturer at Nottingham Trent University, tells Anita how doctors became concerned about this condition and the history of women cycling.In September 2024, multiple Israeli missiles hit an apartment building in southern Lebanon. The Lebanese Health Ministry said that 73 people were killed, the worst single attack in almost two decades. A BBC Eye investigation found that most many of those killed were innocent civilians, 23 of whom were women. Nawal Al-Maghafi has been investigating this attack and speaking to survivors. She joins Anita to share the story of Batoul. Writer, broadcaster and food critic Grace Dent has a book: Comfort Eating: What we eat when nobody's looking. It's inspired by her podcast of the same name, where she talks with a variety of celebrities to discover their secret snacks. Anita asked her about comfort foods.The finale of BBC1's mystery-cum-reality show that everyone is talking about, The Traitors, hits the small screen tonight. Anita discusses this year's themes - sisterhood and deceit with The Traitors superfan, the podcaster and author Vogue Williams and a former contestant from Season 2, Diane, also known as Ross’ mum.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. On Woman's Hour today, we will hear about a secret group of Ukrainian women resisting Russian occupation using innovative and non-violent methods. Also, how 19th century women were warned off using a new technology as it was seen to be far too dangerous for them. What am I talking about? The bicycle, of course. And the Traitors, the TV mystery game-cum-reality show which has been watched by 10 million of you.

A nation obsessed with not only Claudia's wardrobe, but people lying to each other to get their hands on a pot of cash. We're going to be speaking to Traitors mega-fan Vogue Williams and Diane Carson from Traitors Series 2. Diane famously did not reveal that her son was also playing the game. The basic premise of the programme is to lie and deceive others. So this morning, we're going to be discussing deception. And I'd like to hear from you about it. Lying and deceit, not necessarily the same thing. But how easy do you find it? When was the last time you lied? How deceitful have

you been? Maybe you're hiding something from someone in your life right now. And have you been deceived or lied to? Don't we all do it in some way? I'd like to hear your experience of this. Share with me any major or minor deceptions in your life. And remember, you do not have to reveal your identity. Do you lie to your children? Do your children lie to you? Didn't we all fib as kids? Are some lies okay like the tooth fairy? I'm sorry if that's news to you. Please share your tales of deceit. You can get in touch with the program in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also email the program by going to our website and you can also WhatsApp the programme on 03700 100 444.

And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Get in touch with that and also your thoughts, opinions and comments on anything else you hear in the programme are more than welcome. That text number once again, 84844. Now, next month will mark three years since Russia invaded Ukraine. This week, U.S. President Donald Trump warned he will impose high tariffs and further sanctions on Russia if Vladimir Putin fails to end the war. Previously, he'd said he would negotiate a settlement to Russia's full-scale invasion in a single day. According to reports, the Kremlin is ready for a mutually respectful dialogue with

the US president. For some in Ukraine, invasion meant their homes quickly became part of Russian occupied territory and still remain that way. But there are some people resisting that occupation. Zla Mavka is a group of more than 100 women across Russian-occupied Ukraine who are fighting against that occupation, supporting each other to keep going in the face of their enemy. They do this using a variety of so-called peaceful or non-violent methods. Well, joining me now to tell us more are Charlotte Higgins, chief culture writer at The Guardian, who's spoken to some of the ZLA Mavka members, and Tetiana Filevska, creative director at the Ukrainian Institute.

Good morning to both of you, Charlotte and Tetiana. Welcome. Charlotte, I'm going to come to you first. Tell us a bit more about ZLA-MAVKA and how you first came across them. Well, I first came across them, Anita, because I've been reporting in Ukraine for almost three years, using culture as a lens for thinking about and describing what's happening in Ukraine to broaden that picture. It's not the usual way of covering a war. My photographer, who I work with,

a brilliant photographer, Yulia Kochetova, who won World Press Photo last year and she's kind of a great collaborator, came across this group of women and we decided to work on on writing them up together um and she came across them because of um uh tatiana falevska who you're going to speak to in a moment but we were both julia and i julia and i were both incredibly struck by um how clever and how moving, actually, these acts of resistance were. And as a culture writer, they actually do use the...

They use culture as a means of resistance. So they use... So what are they doing? Well, they do things like they design very witty and funny leaflets or posters and kind of surreptitiously put them up around occupied towns. That's becoming more and more difficult, actually, because surveillance is increasing in occupied territories, you know, cameras and things. One of my favourite things they did was to create faked ruble notes. So design up a note that looks very much like a rubel note

of a particular denomination, but change the design so that it has a subversive message in. Like what? So, for example, there's one that ostensibly shows a kind of scene in Crimea, on the coast of Crimea, there's a famous monument, and in the background, the Black Sea. And into the background, black sea and into the background the ukrainian women implanted an image of the famous um cruiser the moskva um warship that the ukrainians sank quite

early in the war so if a random person picks up one of these fakes up rubles on the street thinking oh i found some money they'll see a picture of picture of a Ukrainian kind of famous meme and victory. I mean, you know, it became extremely, you know, kind of symbolic of Ukrainian resistance and this particular act of sinking the Moskva. And then the writing, instead of, you know, saying Bank of Russia, it says this is no place for the Bank of Russia. And then it says Crimea is Ukraine in Russian on the note. You've actually brought some in, haven't you?

I've brought some in. These are OK. Fantastic. Don't try spending them. No, I won't. OK, so. Oh, I see. Yes, that's very good. So it's very obvious there's a boat sink as a ship sinking into the sea. And so who what do we know about these women? Well, we don't know.

We know little in a sense because their security is absolutely paramount because doing this stuff is really, really dangerous. It's not like you're going to get patted on the back and told, don't do it again. I mean, doing this stuff could get you into an extremely serious trouble. So we know that there's a core group of women who set up a telegram channel on which these little acts of resistance appear

or shown, and then they invite other women to contribute to that telegram channel. So it's partly about doing acts and recording them by photographing them. It could be tiny surreptitious acts like holding up a post-it note with a kind of pro-Ukrainian slogan in front of a building in an occupied city. But it's also about inviting women to share their experience of life under occupation. So the Telegram channel also has kind of little stories from women living in very difficult circumstances. And actually, for me, that's so interesting because and so moving because it's very difficult to find out about life under occupation you know these these these places are

cut off from us and certainly I could never go and report in them and you hear about the difficulties and actually the sort of very grim compromises that people have to make you know these are very it's very dark and difficult living under occupation. So hearing the truth about this from women, talking to each other, but also spreading a message outside is fascinating. Yeah, very powerful. Tatiana, let me bring you in here. Thank you for joining us this morning. Tell us what impact these women are having both in occupied and unoccupied areas of Ukraine and how you came across them? Hi both and thank you for inviting me. Well, if we are talking about Zlomovka,

we are talking about women who are currently under occupation and they are going through extreme conditions right now. They're threatened, especially those who decided to still support Ukraine and to fight in their own way, sometimes very small acts of resistance. But for them, it's really huge. It's a very important position. And that's why it was important for me as a curator working with the topic of women's resistance in Crimea to include these stories. And I included diaries of Zlamavka. about their fears, about the ways they are threatened and how they are managing to deal with this

and not even knowing when this terror in their life will end. It is also important for us in the, let's say, liberated or in a free part of Ukraine, because we know that this battle, it was never about territory. It was always about people. And it makes us even stronger in our fight, in our battle. It gives us motivation because we are fighting for those who are waiting for us. They are waiting for us. The exhibition that you've created has a special name.

Tell us about that. Yeah, so the title is loma coming and literally it it translates like the uh stone breaker someone breaking the stone and it's a name of a flower that that grows in highlands uh in high mountains uh crimea it's an endemic so it only grows there this is a specific type of this plant and it grows in extreme temperatures and conditions where nothing else grows no trees no bushes nothing else and this is a very tender little flower that uh you know breaks all these obstacles and continues continues life and continues blossoming and I thought it was a wonderful metaphor for, you know,

for those women who are struggling under occupation but still are praising life and bringing blossom around them. Charlotte, the Russians know that Islamafka exists, right? So how dangerous is this for the women? Oh, it's really dangerous. And one of the facts of reporting on it was, I mean, I was able to interview one of the women living in occupied Ukraine, living in very difficult circumstances. But I mean, I had to anonymize her. In fact,

I have to say, I didn't know her identity. And so verifying this journalistically was, you know, tricky. And there was an element was, you know, tricky. And there was an element of, you know, taking it on trust, in fact. But no, I mean, I mean, part of the reason that people stay. I mean, that's one of the one of the questions is why, why, why didn't they get out? And why don't they still get a lot of people? A lot of people do, have got out. Yeah.

But the reality is, imagine if you have a disabled family member or imagine if your livelihood is your little farm. Yeah. And that's all you have. And then you're facing a choice between hoping for the best under occupation or living as a refugee. I mean, there's a really, really tough choices. And, you know, really, I suppose one of the most moving accounts I read of one of the women was about how her son had tried to persuade her to leave, but she had stayed because of her farm animals. And then he was being

recruited into the Russian army as a Ukrainian. That's a story, you know, that's a very bleak story. And we don't hear about that very much. So the women are living in fear and, you know, trying to leave now could involve, you know, would involve crossing borders. It's almost impossible, but also filtration. And leaving behind. Leaving behind. Yeah. And all of it. Tatiana, you're in Ukraine. What are you hearing about the hopes for negotiating a settlement? Yeah, I'm in Kiev right now

and we actually had an air alarm all morning, just finished. Well, we've been hearing about the settlement and negotiations for quite a while. But, you know, the result and the conditions of these negotiations are decided by the Ukrainian army at the front line right now. So, yeah, I mean, at some point, probably these negotiations will happen. But I think the outcome only depends on the Ukrainian army and the Ukrainian people now.

Tatyana, how much danger are you in yourself promoting this exhibition? Well, I mean, staying in Ukraine, staying in Kiev is part of the story because, you know, we are attacked by Russian drones and missiles almost every night, like this morning, for example. The other thing is being actively involved in promoting the activist work who are under occupation. And of course, this puts an extra danger on me. We know when the Russians occupied part ofiv region in the beginning of 2022, they had this list of people that they would be targeting, first of all. And those lists included also people working in public institutions or working actively in culture. I do both. So I'm

on that list for sure. So in case of an occupation, definitely I would be one of those who would, you know, be endangered and probably even killed. Of course, actively supporting Zlomavka, I get an extra attention probably from that side, from the Russian side, especially considering how much attention this exhibition has been receiving. It was shown widely in Ukraine. Now it's touring to Odessa. It's going to be open next week. It was also shown elsewhere abroad. So, yeah, I feel there is danger,

but I don't think it can be compared to the danger that these women under occupation are feeling and are going through. And why do it? How powerful is it that you have created this exhibition for you? Well, I mean, it's just because I feel that's the right thing to do, because I want to support these women. I want to show them our solidarity. I know how important it is for them to be heard, for their stories to be read elsewhere. That is a huge support for them. So I'm grateful, you know, we are giving this time to them and their stories. And I encourage everyone to search for Zlomavka.

They have a page on Instagram they have a website please go and read those stories yourself because I just feel like you know I couldn't not do it it's just the proper thing and the right thing to do. Well it's for how you started this conversation Charlotte you said you know you're the chief culture writer at the Guardian but actually you know through culture you can talk about what's happening in wartime. Yes, I think it broadens the picture and you can see it takes it away from the front line,

which of course is hugely important, but broadens out to the experience and the emotions actually of what people are experiencing, which is a huge part of the story. I wanted to say that I was in touch with one of the women living under occupation yesterday and I told her I was coming on Woman's Hour and she said that she wanted to say something to the women listening to the show,

which is to say that we're very thankful for the support of our people and that women have power even if sometimes it is unseen. So that is this brave woman's message to your listeners. Powerful to hear that. How much of their success, Charlotte, as a group, is down to the fact that they are women and maybe underestimated? Yes, they do talk about that,

that they, you know, they're young women who just slip through the cracks and don't look like a threat. And that's definitely something they talk about. They don't look like resistors. So, yeah, women do have a lot of power. In that sense, yeah. Charlotte Higgins and Tetiana Filevska, thank you so much for joining me to talk about Islam Africa. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text. Now, when bicycles were

first invented in the 19th century, the main danger associated with them wasn't their design or lack of brakes. For women, it was in fact a health problem called bicycle face. And what were the symptoms? Well, let me tell you. Doctors at the time described them as flushed cheeks, clenched jaws and bulging eyes. Well, here to tell us more about it is Tamsin Johnson,

who's a PhD candidate at Nottingham Trent University, who's studying the history of women cycling. Tamsin, welcome. Bike face. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Bike face. Tell us more about bike face. Where did it come from? Yes, so it's early women's cycling. So I guess British cycling history dates back, you know, to the early 1800s. But women really picked it up in the 1890s in a big way. These were mostly upper class women just due to the cost of the machine itself. But there was a it created somewhat of a moral panic seeing these cycling women on our roads in public on their own and chaperoned.

And so there's a lot of different discourses, which I guess try to work against or to stop encouraging women to get on two wheels and cycle. And, yeah, bicycle face is probably one of the most, one of the biggest ones, really. So it's been described as a face of muscular tension. And it's also been described as an anxious and irritable expression. So, of course, was it really a thing, a medical condition? Perhaps not. And actually, the National Review, which was a London-based paper in the, I think it was 1897, said that it is something that men get as well. Yeah, exactly. Yes, well, but because women are particularly known as the weaker sex, or at least then, perhaps still today,

they were seen as being more susceptible to the condition. It's like, you know, if the wind changes, you'll stay like that forever. Don't get on a bicycle. It's all, what is it, clenched jaws and bulging eyes if you were cycling in this weather. Yes. That's definitely symptoms, but for everybody. Tell us about the bikes. What were they like and how did women ride them with the fashion so well so um it's really interesting so part of the moral panic is also about a fear of women's sexual

transgression whilst on the bike part of that is the fear that they were just going out and they could be on the chaperone and where were they going? Who were they meeting? And so that resulted in the moral panic as well. But also there was a real focus in early bicycle design to keep women's legs together. And obviously, we all know that to ride a bike, you really need to have legs either side. And so there was a fear about and a reluctance to enable when women were trying to get into cycling to enable women to sort of split the legs over the bicycle. And so early bicycle designs are like tricycles, which you would ride with a male companion where you keep your legs in front of you and together you sort of sit back. It's kind of like a reclining position. I don't think you'd really be able to go anywhere fast in this way. And so their pedals are right in front of them they'd lean back and you know the skirt

yeah exactly like a pedalo um and i mean i believe i've not seen a picture of it um but i believe there was a bicycle design patented where the legs of a woman sort of rode side saddle like you would on horseback um at that time which again how do you maintain a balance and actually ride a bicycle with you know your legs to one side it's balance is completely off but women are very resourceful very creative and they'd figure it out indeed um how were bicycles you said there that you know it was people were terrified because women were able to be get places unchoned. So how were these used as an instrument for feminism? So it's an interesting one, the bicycle. So there's this phrase that

keeps coming up when I'm doing my research, and it is women won the vote on two wheels. And so there is a strong relationship between suffragism and the bicycle. And it is that bodily autonomy, the ability to prove your physical strength against sort of the discourses that are happening at a time that are saying you absolutely shouldn't be doing this. You know, there was a fear that cycling women were harming their reproductive organs, that they only had a certain women only had a certain amount of energy to use up in a day or in their life. And they were wasting it on the bicycle. So, yes, it was women's cycling. It was, there was so many. And freedom, fundamentally. Yes, yes, physical, locational freedom.

They were able to meet up so women's organizations so even though cycling and the sort of demand for um equality across women's sports and women's leisure practices and experience wasn't an explicit part of suffragist policy ultimately they do sort of there's a symbiotic symbiotic relationship yeah between the cycle and um women's equality movement and you also studied the imagery of women's cycling how were they portrayed on bikes yes so um i should say that i'm based within visual culture so i am looking at pictures specifically and pictures i guess in historic study are sometimes used as evidence of something happening rather than i'm trying to take the approach where I look at the images first, really, and then consider the history.

And so there's a lot of pictures of women falling off the bicycles, women riding into things. There's this great illustration from a newspaper based in Buffalo in the US. And the title of the article is Does Cycling Make Women Cruel? And it's this ignorant cycling woman who has run over one of her fellow cycling female friends. And she hasn't even noticed because obviously the inference is that women are stupid. Is this the start of women as bad drivers stereotype? It all stems from bicycles. Yeah, I would say so so it's definitely an iteration of that and those discourses that still continue today and you know i was i always do my research in the frame of the gender gap in cycling today as you discussed on the show last week and the

idea that nine out of ten british women are still facing verbal abuse and physical abuse as well when cycling. It's a problem that has a long, long history, really. And did women reclaim that then? Did the image of women cycling change into a more positive one? Yes, so my research goes from the period 1880 to 1939. And the key change in that really, so at the earliest part of the period, 1880, 1890s, cycling is seen as threatening women's femininity. Whereas by 1939, it's reframed within the duty to beauty discourse and the idea, the trend that modern women are health conscious and so by the end of my research period women's cycling is actually seen as not threatening or diminishing femininity but actually ensuring it and being an integral part so you get famous um female cyclists at the time such as billy dovey who rode almost just under 30 000 miles within a year and which is an amazing sporting achievement. And she was named Rudge Whitworth, which is one of the cycling brands.

She was named as Rudge Whitworth's Keep Fit Girl, which is a bit disappointing, I think, because it's, yeah, it's a bit infantilising, isn't it? It is. And also, what's it suggesting, that bikes are OK now because they're keeping women slim? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

So even in the press, when they are talking about Billie Dovey and one of her contemporaries, Marguerite Wilson, they're talking about how Marguerite Wilson is an attractive blonde. And they're talking about Billy Dovey and how she gets to maintain her sort of sun-kissed tan because she's out riding all the time. So cycling really does become a way of practicing and meeting contemporary beauty standards. So what can we learn from all this brilliant knowledge that you've gained about the history of women's cycling through images? Well, I really think it points to where we're at today with women's cycling. You know, I mean, the UK has a patchy cycling infrastructure, but we also have some incredible female cyclist athletes. You know, we female, I mean, in general, in British cycling, we're topping the medal charts in the Olympics. And we have some fantastic female household names, but they are sort of exceptional experiences.

And, you know, as your episode and research in Cycling UK pointed out last week, week you know there's a reason why we're cycling inside in spin classes i myself am a spinner um not a cycler no i'm not you know it's funny i get asked quite a lot um at conferences and whenever i meet people and talk to them about a project i get asked um and do you cycle and i say well actually i spin because there are those i'm aware of those you know cultural issues that prevail today and a lot of women experience and I have I love spin cycling I like the autonomy of it I like working with the bicycle I like pushing myself I love the music the the flashing lights if you go to a particularly fun um session and i and it's a safe space for

women and i find my even though i'm not a you know a pro cyclist it almost doesn't matter for my research because i understand the issues of why i don't cycle and the history of that i guess fair enough tamzin although i quite like the idea of you turning up to your next conference on a penny farthing. I mean oh I wish I was athletic enough to get on a penny farthing and in the early days of cycling that was one of the barriers actually for early women's cycling is that the machines were so big and you had to be quite an athlete even if you were a male cyclist at the time to actually get up on one but yeah if anyone happens to have some Victorian cycling wear, I'm, you know, I'm here to try it. I'd love to give it a go. Well, there you go. You've put it out there. Tamsin Johnson, thank you very much for joining me to tell us all about women's cycling at the end of the 19th century. 84844, that text number.

Now, we're about to see the end of a 60-day ceasefire, which was negotiated in November between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon following nearly 12 months of conflict. Hezbollah's Iran-backed armed wing has carried out deadly attacks on Israeli and US forces in Lebanon and is a prescribed terrorist group in the UK. The conflict escalated in late September 2024 when Israel launched an intense air campaign and ground invasion of southern Lebanon. In September 2024, multiple

Israeli missiles hit an apartment building in southern Lebanon. The Israeli military said it was targeted because it was a Hezbollah base. The Lebanese health ministry said that 73 people were killed, the worst single attack in almost two decades. A BBC Eye investigation found that most of those killed were innocent civilians, 23 of whom were women and 24 children. Nawal Al-Maghafi has been investigating this attack and speaking to survivors. Some of what you're about to hear may be distressing. Good morning, Nawal. Good morning, Anita. Thanks for having me.

Why did you focus on this building? You know what, when we got to Lebanon, we had no clue what we were going to cover. And then I heard about this building. I heard that 73 people had been killed. It happened the day after Hassan Nasrallah, the Hezbollah leader, was killed in Beirut. So I don't think it got much media attention. And as soon as we heard about it, you know, we were told by our Lebanese colleagues that, you know, many women and children were killed in this building. We thought, I want to know why. You know, I want to investigate who was in that building, figure out why it could have been targeted, and understand why this happened. And that's exactly what we did. So we went there, we spoke to eyewitnesses,

we went through health records, we went through social media, funerals, etc. to figure out who exactly was in the building at the time. We identified 68 of the 73 people that were killed. And out of the 68, only six men had some links to Hezbollah. We couldn't find any evidence that any of them were commanders or were any senior level kind of Hezbollah militants. But they had some connection. But then the rest of the people in this building were civilians.

24 of them, like you said, were children and 23 of them women. And so, you know, it was such a catastrophic attack. It was hard to understand why. So you've just mentioned there that your investigation found 23 women and 24 children were killed. Was there a moment that stuck out to you the most? There was. You know, it's one thing reading about these sorts of attacks. And I think there's so much horror around the world.

We've almost become a bit desensitized. And it was going to the site, you know, which was all rubble. It was a month later that I actually got there. And then you see remnants of people's lives. You know, one of the first things I saw was this photo album that had, you know, family pictures of birthday parties and children teddy bears real ordinary real life exactly and there's actually a clip when I was there all I can see is mountains of rubble the remains of people's lives here I just walk over here I came across these tights, a young girl's tights, and they reminded me of my daughters.

It's really things like this that devastate you. I can hear that you're very moved and affected by what you're seeing. Did you meet any parents? I did. I met multiple mothers. One of the mums actually was so distressed about losing her children, we never actually ended up doing an interview. But there was this other mum, Betul, who is this young lady. She has two children.

She'd lost her husband. And she told me the story of what happened on the day of the attack when people were looking for her in the rubble. I saw the clothes of my four-year-old daughter. I said, this is her. her in the rubble. I saw the clothes of my four-year-old daughter. I said, this is her. A very heavy column had fallen on her. I started to call someone to come and help me.

No one came. I had to push the column, and it was very heavy. I got it off my daughter, and I found that she was covered in blood and her head was badly smashed. Oh, that's really difficult to hear. Must have been very hard for you to hear that from her. How is she coping? And how was she able to tell you that so calmly? And that is what really struck me about Batoolul is that she was so strong in this interview.

We were talking to her about losing her child, losing her husband in this attack. And she didn't shed a single tear. And then afterwards, when we came back, I had to call her to tell her about the film coming out and, you know, to just be prepared. It's really hard to revisit these things when so much time has passed. And she told me, you know, to just be prepared. It's really hard to revisit these things when so much time has passed. And she told me, you know, the reason why I didn't cry in that interview is because we have to stay strong. You know, this isn't the first war that Lebanon has gone through. We've gone through many.

And I have to stay strong for my other daughter, who you can hear what happened to her other daughter here. I got out and I started screaming, Oh God, Malak died, my baby. I lifted her up. As soon as I wiped her face, she started to cry. When she started to cry, I said, thank God. So she'd lost her four-year-old, but remarkably, her baby survived. It was extraordinary. And I think that's why she stays so strong,

because she has to be for her daughter that survived. What does the Israeli government say about this attack? So about this attack in particular, they say that it was a Hezbollah command centre. But like I said, we identified the majority of the people that were in the building. We only found the six men who didn't seem to be any high level Hezbollah militants. They also said that they killed the senior commander of Sidon.

And again, we went through everyone that was in that building and we couldn't find any evidence to prove that. And we asked whether these six men were in fact the targets or evidence of the Sidon commander being killed. And we didn't receive any of that. But of course, you know, there's no question that Hezbollah is a threat to Israel. It's launched thousands of rockets across the border into Israel from southern Lebanon. And that was the main reason that they waged this war in Lebanon. But in this particular attack, it was hard to find any evidence of that.

I can't stop thinking about Batul and her story. And how that's and just how women are continuing to kind of cope in that situation. And that's what's really sad about these conflicts, isn't it? Is that, you know, there's no question that maybe in some of these attacks, there are militants in these buildings, but it's the mothers and the children and the innocent men who get caught in the crossfire. And what really strikes you about this building is how many lives were torn apart by it. We spoke to multiple people who were there, people who'd lost their mothers, people who'd lost their children. And there are people just like you and me. It's the impact that conflicts like this have

on innocent civilians is devastating. And the trauma as well. Now, a ceasefire was agreed between Lebanon and Israel at the end of November, and both sides were given 60 days to withdraw. Is this on track? Well, we're waiting to see what happens on Monday because the deal that was struck 60 days

ago, it stipulates that the Israeli troops must completely withdraw from Lebanese soil, and that Hezbollah must retreat north of Lebanon's Litani River by Monday. And neither of that has happened. You know, Hezbollah is saying that Israel must withdraw all its troops from Lebanon or otherwise it will react. But it's hard to see how Hezbollah will considering how much it has been weakened in the last couple of months. So I think everyone is waiting to see what happens on Monday, whether Israel will withdraw or not and what will happen next. Thank you, Nawal al-Meghafi. Thank you so much, Senior International Investigations Correspondent at BBCI. And if you've been impacted by anything you've heard today, there are support links on BBC Action Line. Thank you, Nawal.

Now we will be discussing the traitors and deceit shortly. It was what I started the programme with. I wanted your experiences and your stories of being deceitful or lying. Not necessarily the same thing. And lots of you have got in touch. I lied to my four small children for many years, says someone here. Says Jo. She says, I told them that McDonald's only opened one day a year on Christmas Eve. I would take the children for a McDonald's children's meal box as a treat every Christmas Eve. I got away with it

because we lived in a small village and never visited the town that had the McDonald's. My children still rib me about it and my grandchildren cannot believe how naive their parents were. Another one here saying, I must remain anonymous.

Three exclamation marks. This is how I acquired my cat. I felt sorry for her as I didn't think she was being looked after properly, so I secretly lured her with cat treats. She moved in with me and refused to go home. She's always been free to come and go, so it was her choice to stay with me, but her previous owner was not at all pleased. I said the cat had just decided to live with me and I had nothing to do with it. Not strictly true. What a relief to confess this at last from a listener. If you want to confess anything, this morning is your opportunity. We're talking about lying and being deceitful. The text number is 84844. And remember, you can remain anonymous. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, this week, the nominations for this year's Oscars were released. Among the nominees for Best Actress is none other than first time nominee Demi Moore, who featured on Women's Hour for her film The Substance. Unfortunately, I'm gutted about this. Marianne Jean-Baptiste, who was on the programme yesterday, did not make the list for her film Hard Truths that I'd hoped she was robbed. In, however, the Best Supporting Actress category, alongside the likes of Isabella Rossellini,

Zoe Saldana and Ariana Grande, is British actress Felicity Jones. She's been nominated for her role in the film The Brutalist, which is released today. And if you do want a top film recommendation and you've got a spare four hours this weekend, I highly recommend you go and see it. It's extraordinary. The film tells the story of a Hungarian architect

who emigrates to the USA after the Holocaust whilst his wife, Elisabeth, is trapped in Eastern Europe. Here is Felicity Jones speaking to me on Wednesday's programme this week. I'd been reading lots of scripts at that time and hadn't come across anything that was really making an impact. And then The Brutalist came through and I thought initially what an amazing title,

such a brilliant film title. And then in reading it, I was incredibly moved by it fundamentally. And I felt that Ajarebet was this magnificent character. She was someone who is completely unafraid of who she is. When we meet her, you realize she's been through incredible trauma. She's been through concentration camps alongside her husband in different camps, but they've been through very similar experiences. And I felt there was a great challenge in conveying this woman's experience. She's also physically weak and malnourished.

You get to learn, actually, that she's exceptionally strong throughout the film. And you mentioned the trauma there, because there's trauma of the Second World War, but she actually has trauma within her body. How did you prepare for that? You mentioned the trauma there because there's trauma of the Second World War, but she actually has trauma within her body. How did you prepare for that? Well, that was a huge aspect of understanding who she was. And as you say, the experiences that she's gone through are manifesting physically, the malnutrition, the psychological impact. And we see Ajebet throughout that second half of the film dealing with that. And you realize what's great about the script was that it never pinpoints anything. It never

patronizes the audience. So much is conveyed just through performance, which is obviously a delight for an actor. Congratulations to Felicity Jones on her Oscar nomination. And congratulations to producer and director Emily Cassie, who was on the programme last week to discuss her incredibly powerful documentary Sugarcane, which investigates the Canadian Indian residential school system and is up for Best Documentary Feature. It was also a big week for music

with the release of the Brit nominations. Charlie XCX leads this year's awards with five nominations, including for Best Album of the Year for Brat. Seventh-time Brit winner Dua Lipa has received four nominations and last year's Rising Star winners, The Last Dinner Party, have four nominations.

And Rachel Chinneriri who is up for artist of the year. Here's a burst of All I Ever Asked from the album What's a Devastating Turn of Events and here is Rachel Chinneriri talking to us on Woman's Hour in May last year. In this day and age there's so much I want to say genre bending there's a lot of influences from lots of different genres so I don't think you can really specifically say something is one thing but I think as like a black woman in the industry even if my music really wasn't R&B soul at all it would just be called that just simply because I was black and if I would make music which

shouldn't stereotypically quote- unquote, sound like black music, then there was a whole thing of, oh, this is great, but we don't know what to call it. And there was points I was getting called like the hip hop Lily Allen. And it was so bizarre. Yeah, I don't hear that.

And I realised it was because I was black. So yeah, it was quite difficult. And your lyrics are very personal, intimate. You talk about betrayal. There's also female friendship and support. And the video for never need me good example Florence Pugh yes the actress plays your supportive best mate so how did how did she get in touch well she dm'd me on instagram um well actually she came to my show

at cross the tracks in 2022 I think with her friends and I had no clue who she was at the point but then I watched Midsommar like a year or so after and then I was like, oh, she's actually quite successful and a great actor actually. Then she followed me on Instagram. So it wasn't a surprise, but it was kind of a surprise. And then she messaged me saying, love your music. And then I replied saying, would you like to be in my music video?

And very surprisingly, she was like, yeah, let's do it. Oh, we like it when powerful women come together to create great art rachel chinarui speaking to claire on woman's hour may of last year congratulations uh to her for her brit nomination and to all the women who've been on woman's hour have got all their oscar nominations as well now uh let's hear about comfort food we spoke about this on the program last year and lots of you got in touch with all your comfort foods from jams to curries. Well, writer and broadcaster and food critic Grace Dent has a book called Comfort Eating, What We Eat When Nobody's Looking.

It's inspired by her podcast of the same name where she talks with a variety of celebrities to discover their secret snacks. I spoke to Grace and I started by asking her all about her podcast. I had no idea when I began that by getting celebrities round to my house to talk about the things that they actually really eat, I didn't know it'd be such a way in for them to talk about their childhoods, their relationship with their mother, their relationship with the lady down the road that their mother left them with their relationship with school and bored in school uh it's been wonderful i think that when you ask them to bring a snack as well the thing they really eat not they're not talking about a fancy restaurant or thing that they would put on instagram nobody puts these things on social media

it's that embarrassing thing that they would never, ever speak about. I've bought my thing with me today. Go on, please. What have you brought? A thing that I eat when no one's watching. She's brought a tin. I have a tin. Oh my goodness.

And I have it with me. Oh yes. It's a tin of spaghetti. It's little spaghetti. I won't name any brands because I'm a good girl. In tomato sauce. These a good girl in tomato sauce these are little pigs in tomato sauce Grace has even brought a spoon

I brought a spoon go on let's hear that I'm having them cold because I think because she's gross I think that's just rude I think the world divides into people that can get spaghetti or beans to the microwave

without having some, and then perfectly sane people like me that have to have a couple of spoons before they get there. When we eat these, spaghetti in sauce, beans in sauce, these come up a lot on the podcast, a lot of tomato soup. Yes. And I think even though this sauce that I'm pointing at here it doesn't taste of tomato, it's not tomato

but I think it is a link back to childhood, we all remember coming in on a cold day and somebody loving us and giving us that tomato soup or this to me that's caravan holidays that is a static

caravan in great britain in the 70s nine days in a static caravan living the dream being bombarded by wind and rain and coming in and and eating that and i think that every time i come in from master chef and i've spent the whole day eating very very rich food made by very stressed chefs haunch of venison and kumquat souffle I come in and I think I'm just I'm hungry I just want something and I stand I take off all the accoutrements that make me the natural beauty I am eyelashes pieces of clipping hair all these these things, the bra, everything. And then the shell of me stands at the back door and I eat this while looking at the plants that have died in my garden.

The brilliant Grace Dent there. We're talking about deceit and lying and deception because we're about to talk about the traitors, but I've really got to tell you what Carmen from Saltburn has admitted to us here at Woman's Hour. She says, you need to imagine the 80s, the summer holidays, a bunch of young kids playing out on the streets. My friends were boasting about their achievements, gymnastics medals, dance competitions. I didn't do anything like that, but wanted to boast too. So I made the outrageous claim that I was a champion potato thrower.

Never imagined that I'd be called out. But then one of the kids went and got a potato. Go on then, they said. I threw the potato at the same moment that a young lad was doing a wheelie past us girls to impress us. The potato went straight through the spokes of the raised wheel. I got a round of shocked applause and potato throwing became a thing. What a great story. 84844

we're talking deceit and deception because it's a TV phenomenon that has dominated the ratings and tonight at 8.30 on BBC One, the final of the mystery come reality show that everyone is talking about The Traitors. You may well have been obsessed this week by

the jaw-dropping twists, not to mention Claudia's well-discussed fashion choices, but this morning we're going to focus on this year's sisterhood theme and the deceit of the participants. That is women's deceit in particular, which seems to have tapped into the nation's fascination with lying. Over 10 million people have tuned in, but it's the traitors. Is it the traitors that's having the effect? Is it making us sneakier, more deceitful in our day-to-day lives? Well, with me to discuss this, the traitors effect and this season is traitors super fan and podcaster and author Vogue Williams and contestant on season two, Diane, a.k.a. Ross's mum. Welcome both of you.

Who should I come to first? V vogue i think you need to give us an overview for people who have never seen the traitors very quickly what's it all about i'll tell you what i started watching the traitors in december when i had the flu and it will suck you in it's basically you've got contestants and a few of them are chosen to be traitors and they are gonna they can merge you at night or they can recruit you. And the people who are faithfuls, you all basically, no one knows who anyone is. And you have to guess who the traitors are and try and get them off the game. And then you win a lot of money at the end.

And it is so addictive. Why? It's so good. It's so fascinating to watch the way people are with each other. And as the game gets smaller, like last night, the way that people will lie to win the way people are with each other and as the game gets smaller like last night the the way that people will lie to win the game is so funny to watch um and it's just it's just really hilarious and watching people get annoyed with other people because they know they're lying to them but it is part of the game and people kind of forget they're like but we're friends

no you're not you're against each other let's bring diane in and diane is anyone your friend in there no you can't trust anybody i mean ross would have got rid of me if he'd needed to you know so um yeah you know you're right i mean yeah i think you still have to sort of rely on friends um but you just hope to god that they are faithful um but even the traitors as you saw harry in my season he needed molly to get right to the end did you did you know that you were such a deceitful person do you become more deceitful and able to lie when you're in there but i was a faithful don't forget and i mean people i when i came out oh you lied about ross at no stage did

anybody ask me if ross was my son so I never lied and even getting on to the show I told everybody I was going to Scotland because my son lives in Scotland and I told him I was going to Inverness because my husband's family lives there you go so you never lied I never had to lie no no I just went in and had fun, had good crack. I hate lying so much. It's one of the worst things. I never do it, but I could do it on that. Well, Vogue, it's funny you should say that because the newspapers reported yesterday

that you broke dry January whilst attending a children's birthday party, but you never told your husband Spencer Matthews. So is that a lie? Is that a little white lie? Or is that deceit? He never asked me if I had a glass of champagne at that party. So I never told him.

And I didn't expect to be thrown under the bus by the papers. But I was. So there we go. Caught out. Isn't this the point? I mean, you're both mothers. There you go, Diane. You were there with your son, Ross.

You've got three gorgeous kids, Vogue. As mums, do you sort of have to lie a little bit when you're bringing up children? We've got a few people messaging in about when they've been lied to as children or they've lied to their children. I think you do a little bit. Like my youngest daughter, she goes to bed earlier than my son.

So even last night, she was like, no, I'm watching this programme. And I said, no, Theodore's not allowed to watch TV either. And then I'm looking at tea behind her back being like, don't take it. Because as soon as she goes to bed, then he will watch TV. But I say that to get her to bed. So it's kind of like a white lie. Yeah. And how about you, Diane? Oh, I think white lies are absolutely fine.

You know, there's lots of things we tell our children to do with sort of magic and enchantments, which I would say was a little white lie to preserve, you know, fun and excitement and whatever else. So I don't call that lying. Dan, did you find it easy to get people to trust you on the programme? Did you have tactics? No, no, I'm quite a sort of gobby opinionated person so I went in and just wanted to last past the day so if I'd been a traitor I would have been put out instantly because I would have struggled with that so I needed to establish myself as a reasonable human being and then the only way I could have ever been a traitor would have been to have been recruited. But even then, I would struggle to have got rid of Molly, for example.

I mean, I really would. So that's why the game is so fascinating because you've got human nature, you've got human connections, you've got human relationships, but you still have to kill people. And that's why it's so fascinating. Vogue, can we talk a bit about Sisterhood and who were the sneakiest participants? they'll have to kill people. And that's why it's so fascinating. Vogue, can we talk a bit about Sisterhood and who were the sneakiest participants? What's going on? I mean, I think Mina was one of the greatest traders

that I've ever seen because she really enjoyed it. She really enjoyed doing the murder at night and she'd be talking to one of her best friends on the show and then she'd go back to the church and she'd be like, let's get them tonight. So going from like loving it and then she was with one of the traders Linda and they'd come in and they'd talk about how they were sisters and they'd have each other's back and then she'd sit at the round table and she voted her off and like that's one of my favorite bits when you know that they're

going to turn on you which Charlotte obviously did as well last night but I'm not I'm not honestly sure Mina would have done that, apart from the fact everybody was going for Linda. And if you remember, they actually discussed that. For me, Mina was an excellent creator because she had a side of humanity. You know, she was emotional. I mean, she maybe was a little bit too emotional,

but she definitely wanted that sisterhood, which, of course, is her downfall because she trusted Charlotte. She didn't go in like, you know, when we had Paul, he was our villain, our pantomime traitor. And actually, he is quite often hated by people. He thinks it's hilarious because he went in with a persona. But I think... Isn't that the name of the game? Isn't the whole point of the game deception?

I think British people like to see traitors with a bit of humanity, which I agree with you, Vogue. I think Mina was excellent because she had vote. Yeah, her downfall was wanting to keep the sisterhood, though. Yes, the sisterhood is interesting this year.

And I have to point out, Charlotte, I thought it was a stroke of genius, the fake Welsh accent. I tell you who really stood out for me is Leanne, who consciously played the game, dressed very glam and in a girly way. She's a trained soldier. What would you do, Vogue, if you had to go in? I think, and I've thought about this, I think I'd act really stupid

and just like, oh, I didn't realise, but I'd love to be a traitor because even though I genuinely can't bear lying, I think I'd be so good at lying on that show because I'm so competitive that I'd love to go in and I'd just play a bit ditzy and be like, oh my God, I know nobody would ever do that. Yeah. That's kind of the way. Play to the stereotypes people have of beautiful women. Very quickly, Vogue, are you going to be doing Celebrity Traitors? Can you tell us? We don't want to know. Do we know?

I wish I was doing it. No call, yes. All right. You never know. There might be time. Thank you so much for joining me to talk about that. Thank you, Vogue. Thank you, Diane.

And the Traitors final is on tonight at 8.30 on BBC One. Lots of your deceitful messages coming in. I'm going to read out a couple to end the programme. I told my children that the original computer games, such as Mario Kart, had no sound because I couldn't stand the electronic noise. When their friends asked why there was no sound, they happily said, ours has no sound. And another one here, I told everyone lies last Christmas.

I said I was spending Christmas at someone else's house and managed to spend it all alone. Bliss. It's been hard since, though, when I've had to invent the good times and remember who I told what to. I'd never make a traitor. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Matthew Side, and Sideways, my podcast from BBC Radio 4,

brings you stories of seeing the world differently. From that moment on, I feel like my life and the way that I view life itself just shifted, literally. Stories about the ideas that shape our lives. If a missile had come down and killed us all, it wouldn't have mattered. It was just me in a moment of bliss in the middle of a war zone. Stories about everything from the ethics of using AI to simulate conversations with the dead to viewing decay as a vehicle for rebirth. Listen to Sideways first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.