Woman's Hour - Zoe Saldaña, Yomi Adegoke, Guardianship, Lunar module engineer

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

Zoe Saldaña has appeared in the top three grossing movies of all time – Avatar, Avatar: Way of Water and Avengers: Endgame. You may know her as Uhura in the Star Trek reboot films, Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy, or as Neytiri in Avatar. Now Zoe is taking a break from sci-fi and fantasy to star in a new, Earth-based TV series called Special Ops: Lioness. It’s a spy thriller about a covert programme that trains and dispatches women around the world as undercover operatives. Zoe joined Nuala to record an interview last week, before the US actors’ strike was called. The Metropolitan Police has started using counter-terrorism tactics to hunt down the 100 worst male sexual predators targeting women. Nuala gets the reaction of former Inspector of Constabulary Zoe Billingham, who led the 2021 review of the policing response to violence against women and girls, calling for it to be treated with the same priority as terrorism. 15 countries in the Middle East and North Africa still apply laws that require women to either 'obey' their husbands or seek their permission to leave the marital home, work, or travel. That’s according to a new report from Human Rights Watch, which compares the state of male guardianship laws across the region. The report finds that, although women’s rights activists have been successful in winning some freedoms, new restrictions are still being implemented – particularly in areas of conflict such as Yemen and Syria. Rothna Begum, Senior Women's Rights Researcher, joins Nuala to explain the findings.Yomi Adegoke is the co-author of the bestselling guide, Slay in Your Lane: A Black Girl’s Bible. Now she’s stepping into the world of fiction with her debut novel, The List. Journalist Ola and her fiancé Michael are getting married in a month, but their excitement is shattered when a database of men in the world of media, and allegations of sexual harassment against them, is anonymously posted online. And Michael is on it. How will the couple navigate the fall out? Yomi joins Nuala to talk about why she wanted to write this story.For the first time in fifty years, humans will soon be returning to the moon. Sara Pastor is the project manager and Chief Engineer of the International Habitation module – the place where astronauts will live and study scientific findings in space as part of the Artemis Mission, set to happen in the next few years. Sara joins Nuala to talk about why this is such an important project for human exploration, and how women are at the centre of it.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Back in January, Zoe Billingham, the former police and fire inspector, called for counter-terror tactics to be deployed to stop the epidemic of violence against women and girls. Well, today, as you were hearing, the Met Police Commissioner, Mark Rowley, has announced that the force will do just that, to catch some of the worst predators targeting women in London,

saying it will rank the 100 most dangerous. But just how effective is a strategy like this? And could it begin to restore public trust in the police, which some surveys put nationally at under 50%? If you want to get in touch with the programme today, the text number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

Also today, Hollywood superstar Zoe Saldana, who I spoke to before the current actor's strike. She is starring in a new TV series. It's called Special Ops Lioness. And we're going to talk about that, but also about some of her huge sci-fi roles, including how after Avatar, Way of Water, she can now hold her breath underwater for five minutes.

We're also going to go out of this world. We're going to hear from the engineer building the module where astronauts will live within the moon's orbit. It's all to do with the next mission to the moon. And also in the Woman's Hour studio today, Yomi Adegoke. Her new book is called The List. It is a total page turner on the underbelly of life online. And also today, we'll look at male guardianship laws across the Middle East and North Africa.

But let us begin with the Metropolitan Police. They have started, as I mentioned, using counter-terrorism tactics to hunt down the worst male offenders targeting women. The Met Commissioner told our colleagues at the Today programme this morning that he says we are using a clever data method to find the most dangerous 100 predators and then going after them practically using every

possible tactic, just like we would do with an organised criminal or a serious terrorist. The former inspector of Constabulary Zoe Billingham led the 2021 review of the policing response to violence against women and girls and calling for it to be

treated with the same priority as terrorism. I spoke to Zoe this morning and I started by asking her whether identifying the 100 most dangerous predators was actually a useful strategy. Nuala, yeah, absolutely, 100%. I'm so pleased to hear that the Metropolitan Police are taking forward this really innovative reform. It's something that many other forces could follow suit on, because basically what it means is that the Met will target predators, those men that prey on women and girls. And it's known from research that a man doesn't domestically abuse or target one single woman. It's multiple women who will be his victims. So if the Metropolitan Police knows where its most prolific, harmful offenders are, and is going to use really overt tactics, the same sorts of tactics that they use to fight terrorism, for example,

to bring offenders to justice when they are perpetrating violence against women and girls, that is great news. It's great news for Londoners, and I hope it's great news for the rest of England and Wales as other forces will follow suit. But people will be wondering, hang on, how will this work? I did see within the current top 100, police say they've identified 445 offences and 201 victims, with two offenders suspected of having 15 victims each.

But how do they come to that number of 100? So, I mean, I guess what the Met Police would say is they have to start somewhere. So tackling the highest harm offenders and actually targeting resources on them. And by that, I mean actually increasing the number of detectives that are there to bring these offenders to justice, proactively going out and supporting women to stay with the court system, which is an excruciating experience for many women, partly because it takes so long, but also making sure that they use the sorts of surveillance, counter corruption, counter terrorism activities that are used and deployed against those suspected of terrorist

offences. That's going to be quite resource intensive. So I think the sense is if you can start taking the top 100 predators off the streets and actually bringing them to justice, and by that I mean taking the case to court and making sure that they get a custodial sentence, then you're beginning to see a change in the dynamics within local communities. But it's also important, Nuala, isn't it, with trust in British policing at an all-time low, it's really important that the police are being seen to be absolutely proactive, meaning business in tackling violence against women and girls. And I think this is a really positive step by the Met Police in showing that they do mean business.

And it is less than 50% that public trust in police with the latest figures. But some might say, hang on, it's six months ago that they were talking about reforms and now they're talking about the 100. But it's not like those people have been taken off the streets or behind bars at the moment. I mean, what is being done? And there is the 100 worst perpetrators, but that's out of 35,000 offenders that were reported each year for crimes against women. Yeah, you're quite right. And, you know, we do have to still push the police to make sure that every time a woman or a friend or a neighbour rings up because there's domestic abuse being perpetrated, that the police turn up for every single incident. They take the victim seriously. They believe the victim and they do a proper

investigation. Astonishingly, Nuala, about 75% of domestic abuse cases get dropped by the police on the grounds that they haven't got enough evidence to proceed. Now, that's a scandal, isn't it? And so as well as targeting the highest harm offenders, these predators, these top 100 in the Met, the Met also need to do a routine day-to-day job to tackle the epidemic of violence against women and girls. So it's a multi-pronged approach. And I do know from talking to the Met Police that they have many other initiatives alongside this one in order to make sure that they are shown to be keeping women and girls safe and that they're prioritising this crime, that it's no longer the Cinderella crime

that no police officer wants to turn up to. It's actually the crime that's the most prevalent. 40% of violent offences in London will be related to domestic abuse. So it's absolutely vital, isn't it, that the police keep us women safe. And it is largely a crime perpetrated by men against women. But of course, we always have to remember that there are also male victims of domestic abuse as well. We're also hearing this morning about the Cambridge Harms Index, that that would play into how data is collated. Can you explain it? I can, probably in fairly broad terms. What the police traditionally do in terms of kind of reporting to the public about how well they're doing is they report on how many individual single crimes that they've solved. So they count single crimes, irrespective of whether

it's a shoplifting or whether it's a murder. So each crime is counted as one. The Crime Harm Index that's been developed by Cambridge University attaches to individual crimes, a degree of harm that's felt by the victim. So it's a weighted index. So rather than judge the police on how many shoplifting offences they bring to justice, it's actually looking at the whole volume of crime and weighting it in terms of harm to the victim. So I think it's also a good thing to do. It's been knocking around the Cambridge Harm Index for a while and many forces use it behind the scenes. But I think the Met is calling for this to be used more publicly. And it's actually a useful tool, isn't it? Because if you prioritise your highest harm crimes in terms of how they affect the victim and think

about the psychological trauma and the lifelong effects that serious sexual offences have on women, again, I think that's a pretty good move on behalf of the Met. The Casey Review found that the Met force was institutionally misogynistic. Commissioner Mark Rowley rejected the term institutional. But how can officers that may be caught up in that

enact these new strategies? It's like two tracks that are going on at the same time. Very much so. And again, that's really going back to Mark Rowley's pledge to root out all of the perpetrators within the Metropolitan time. Very much so. And again, that's really going back to Mark Rowley's pledge to root out all of the perpetrators within the Metropolitan Police. And that has to happen,

doesn't it? Because in order for women in London to pick up the phone to call the police, they have to believe that the person crossing their threshold is there to protect them, not to predate on them. So again, Mark Rowley is investing very significant resources in terms of whole teams in counter-cor corruption against its rogue police officers. And we've seen this, haven't we, manifesting itself. Mark said himself that there'll be at least three police officers in court from the Metropolitan Police every week for the foreseeable future. And that's happening because as soon as you shine a light and pick up the stones and look under those rocks that no one's looked under before, you're going to find more transgressors. So I've been saying for a little while, Nuala, that it's going to get worse before it gets better in the Met Police. But again, it has to be done for the women to have confidence in calling the police and believing that they're going to be taken seriously and that the person is that

they're not going to predate on them. You know, I heard Mark Rowley saying he is a man in a hurry, but you called for radical change in 2021, then inspector of the constabulary. How do you understand the amount of time that it's taking to even get to these 100 predatory men, for example. So what we have to remember in terms of the Metropolitan Police, which I have been kind of tracking quite closely for obvious reasons in the wake of the terrible killing of Sarah Everard and the heinous crimes of David Carrick, is that they have had in place for some time a really quite strong action plan to tackle violence against women and girls and a whole range of measures. This is one of many, many measures the Metropolitan Police is putting into play so that women do feel better protected.

And my assessment is, is that the Met Police is doing all the types of things that you'd want to see. But it is going to take a while to turn around what is a societal problem after all. You know, when I did that same report that you just referred to, we referred, we coined the phrase actually, there being an epidemic of violence against women and girls, and we use that phrase very carefully. There's 1.6 million crimes of domestic abuse against women every single year. Every 30 seconds, someone calls the police related to a domestic abuse incident. So there's a mammoth, mammoth mountain

that needs to be climbed. And this is one of many, many tactics that the Metropolitan Police and other forces are adopting. And I say hurrah for that. Thanks very much to former Inspector of Constabulary Zoe Billingham. Tomorrow, I'll be speaking to Mina Smallman. You'll remember her daughters were murdered in June 2020

and two Met police officers have since been sentenced for sharing photos of their bodies with friends and colleagues. Mina will join me to discuss the launch of a new body called the Alliance for Police Accountability. I want to turn to Hollywood Next. My next guest has appeared in three of the highest grossing movies of all time. That's the two Avatar films and Avengers Endgame. You might also know her as Uhura in the Star Trek reboot films, Gamora in Guardians of the Galaxy, or maybe Nytiri in Avatar.

Well, now Zoe Saldana is taking a break from sci-fi and fantasy to star in a new TV series that is based on Earth instead. It's called Special Ops Lioness. It's coming out later this week. It's a spy thriller about a covert programme that trains and dispatches women around the world as undercover operatives.

Zoe came in to record an interview with me in the Woman's Hour studio last week before the US actressors Strike was called. And I asked her about the character she plays in this series. I play Jo, a woman that has dedicated her life to be in military service and not just any kind of service, espionage, the service of espionage for her country. And she has to balance, you know, just the pressures and responsibilities that come with a profession like this while also balancing home life and a husband and teenage children

and trying to keep everything afloat without losing her edge. I think it's really interesting. We'll go into the home life in just a moment. But what she's doing as her job is really recruiting and handling hard-bitten female soldiers who have to then infiltrate the wives and girlfriends of suspected IS leaders in the Middle East. Do you feel conflict from Jo about that? Because she's putting

these women, obviously, in such a dangerous position. Absolutely. It is, I mean, it's a very complicated situation. But at the end of the day, you're fighting for a greater good. Right. And you do have to make these sacrifices. I was taught by my mentor who is played by Nicole Kidman. And she plays, you know, Caitlin, who started the program and I'm running it for her. I must have been her first lioness and one of the ones that made it and then transitioned to now running the program for her, with her. And it is hard. It is hard. But there's one thing that Jo has is that she will go through great lengths to make sure she does not lose an operative. There is, you mentioned Nicole Kidman there as your superior, but even from the opening credits, Zoe, when I was watching it, it's woman, woman, for a very, very long time. The whole thing of espionage wasn't just a man's world. If anything, women were turning out to be better because they can go under the radar, undetectable, and infiltrate deeper sectors of targets.

So that has been going on since the beginning of time. I appreciate the fact that someone by the name of Jill Wagner, who plays Bobby in the show, who's my right hand muscle. Yeah, also a tough lady. Tough lady. She comes from a family of people that have served in the military. And she had this idea. And she pitched it to taylor who's a very good friend of hers and that's uh taylor sheridan and taylor ran with it so it's and the fact that someone like taylor who's such an iron rider you know um devoted his time in 2020 to flesh out this show even though it takes place in a fictional world, it was based on true events. It was inspired, inspired by true events, inspired by true characters in real life that are still possibly serving today. is that you see there is going to be a relationship between the women who are in relationships with IS leaders

and with one of these lionesses. Are we meant to have sympathy for the wives or girlfriends of IS leaders, do you think? I think we're meant to have sympathy for everyone involved. And, you know, whether you're the children, the parent, the sibling of a target, their lives are going to change forever. And I think it's important to understand that, that these are complex situations and they're so heavy layered. And it's not just like one bad guy against a good guy. It's a series of unfortunate events. And we have, we're compelled, you know, to just make decisions that are going to be hard for some, but save so many more people.

You know, it's interesting because we do see family relationships on both sides of the conflict. And we briefly alluded to the home front also depicted the strain that's placed on family relationships when a wife and mother, Jo, is posted in the field. And as I was watching that, I found, wow, this is so unusual because what I'm used to seeing is men coming back from the conflict zones and the tension and stress that there can be when they reappear into the domestic setting. And it happens both ways. I do believe that that it is the same. I would love to say that women probably have more pressure because, you know, society does put a lot more responsibility when it comes to domestic participation to the women, to the female characters in a family household. And I don't think that this exists for Joe. I think that Joe has her priorities and her service is just as important as her home life. And she's married to someone that truly understands that. Which is an unusual character, I thought, on screen too. You know, it is, but he's a doctor. So in a way, he has picked a life of service as well. And not just any doctor. He's a pediatric oncologist, which you're going to get to know Neil, which is played by the wonderful Dave Annabelle. And I just love the fact that Taylor wasn't going to make this easy for us. Taylor wasn't going to give you a woman that's married to a man that's super despondent and therefore her life

sucks at home because she's gone. No, no, no, no. And she's not going to give this woman partners and colleagues, male colleagues in the workforce that are constantly putting her down. So she spends a great deal of her time trying to prove her worth. No, no, no, that's not we're past that. This is this is women and men that care for their country, that care for their families, that care for the lives of their teen people, and they're trying to make everything work. There is a storyline as well in that first episode of Domestic Abuse.

It becomes this turning point for one of the characters. Was it important to you as an executive producer that the women are portrayed as survivors, as this particular woman is? I mean, this particular lioness had the misfortune of having no other choice but to seek solace in the military as a form of refuge for her, and then ended up finding a great purpose.

And that tends to be a very resonating story, you know, among people that serve across the planet, obviously. But that's not necessarily the case for everybody. Sometimes you're drafted from Northwestern, and you were going to a university, yeah, of foreign policy. And they realized that you're a wonderful asset for intelligence, you know, espionage type of intelligence. I mentioned the home front and that, you know, being posted on location as Joe is in this series. But what about you in real life? I believe you travel with your boys when you're filming? Yes. My life is similar to Joe's in this, but much more PG-13 version of Joe's. But I do feel that I am making ultimate sacrifices constantly, every day, sometimes, ripping my children and my husband away from, you know, just like a life that would

give them a lot more stability. We've chosen a life on the road. But whether or not it would have been me or my husband, because my husband is also an artist and he travels a lot, this is what we do. So you do have to deal with the grueling hours of set life of 14 hours shoot days, and then coming home and reconnecting and assimilating, taking your time when you've played a heavy character, and allowing that character to sort of leave your spirit. And sometimes it takes a little while. You're unaware of this, but your partner and your family is very well aware because they see how you change and adapt. And so it's hard on everybody.

You know, picking a life of performance and travel is not an easy life, but you do make it work. For us, we have the privilege of being able to take our entire operation wherever we go. So the foundation of family and having dinners together is stable, but it comes at a financial sacrifice of bringing an assistant and two nannies and a tutor and the grandparents that way they can be around their grandchildren and picking apartments and you know and sometimes locations can be affordable and sometimes locations are not as affordable but you have to make it work so I'm just happy that I have a partner that is aligned with me and and that I am aligned with him so it's a traveling show when the family goes.

I love it. I believe, speaking of family, I think you credit your own mother who raised you and your sisters alone after your father's death as the person who gave you self-respect and the confidence that we see. You must need it in the business you've decided to be in. You do. You do. And my mom did the best that she could. Not a perfect mother, but who is? Who's a perfect parent? But the best that she could was good enough for us. And the happened to all of us, us as children losing a father and to her losing her partner, the person that she can bounce ideas off of,

that she relied on in order for her to take care of the family. All of a sudden, she was left by herself and she was a very young mom. And she made decisions that at first, you know, she doubted and they were hard and they were painful. But in the end, they turned out to be the best decisions because she did them with her heart. And then, you know, enabled us to make the best out of what we got. So if what we got was this, it's like, take your time, sulk. You're entitled to your feelings, grieve, but then get up. You know, my mother was always this kind of soldier. I almost equate her to Sarah Connor

in that sense. And it's so interesting because, of course, you did go on and as I mentioned, these huge, grossing movies, whether we're talking about Mourning Guardians of the Galaxy, many of the listeners, you know,

who are just obsessed, maybe it's fair to say, with Avatar and the character of the warrior, Neytiri. With Avatar Way of Water, is this true that you had to learn to hold your breath for five minutes at a time? Oh, yes, yes. And I was not even the one who broke the record.

There were so many more before me. One of your own, Kate Winslet, held her breath for seven minutes. Then she was followed by Sigourney, who I believe held her breath closer to five and a half minutes or even up to six. But it had to do with the training. You know, the training was more psychological. And then it was anatomical. Then it had to do with the body. It's training your brain to understand that it has enough oxygen supply to last you more than a couple of minutes. So you're going to be fine. So you have to go through a series of exercises and it's all counting down to the big gulp of air before you go down. And the whole process is about calming your nervous system, removing from your system enough carbon dioxide

to then put pump in a lot of oxygen into your bloodstream so that when you go under, you know, you were able to sort of like tamper with the chemistry and it buys you time to be down there before anything starts to happen that's detrimental to your health. So I'm a very, I'm a geek. I like when things are explained to me in a scientific term. That became really exciting to me to get to achieve. And I've always been a little fearless that way. And we did it. It was a lot of fun. We also had a lot to prove because we were a cast of a certain age introducing a younger cast. I mean, Trinity was, I think she was seven or eight. And she was doing the exercises with us.

So we can't bug out in front of the seven-year-old. She's doing it fine. I love that. And I love that you're a science fiction geek. Because obviously you were also in Star Trek. Have you always been that fan of science fiction? Yes, yes. I love space.

I love the unknown. I'm afraid of heights, but I love imagining the unimaginable. It's sort of like a blank slate where you can create and recreate from scratch, in addition to following the molds of humanity. My guest Zoe Saldana and Special Ops Lion Air starts on the streaming service Paramount+. Next Sunday, that is the 23rd of July.

If you want to get in touch with the programme on any of the items you're hearing, you can text us on 84844 or at BBC Women's Hour on social media. A couple of people getting in touch in reference to our first item as we were talking about the list of 100 predators.

Elaine says it's brilliant to view violence against women on the same level as terrorist offences but until rape convictions improves it doesn't make sense. Another, in my work I have to deal with some career criminals and I would guarantee that the creation of a top 100 most dangerous

sexual predators would actually exacerbate the situation. Many such criminals would view it as a status symbol to be named in this group. That's quite a depressing thought. 84844 if you want to get in touch. Now

we were a moment ago underwater with Zoe Saldana. We're going to head for the clouds next. For the first time in over 50 years, humans are returning to the moon in a mission that could launch as soon as 2026. This time, however, it won't be Neil Armstrong making one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Instead, the first woman will set foot on the moon alongside the first person

of colour. And at the heart of the project to make all of this happen, a world-leading female engineer. Zahra Pastor is the project manager for the International Habitation, or IHAB, as it's known, a module. So a place, really, where astronauts heading to the moon will be living, sleeping and carrying out scientific research. Zahra, welcome to Woman's Hour. Astronauts Heading to the Moon Will Be Living, Sleeping and Carrying Out Scientific Research. Sara, welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Well, I mentioned the IHAB module that you're developing from the European Space Agency. Where will it be? What will it look like?

Well, it will be part of the gateway, of the lunar gateway that will be indeed orbiting around the moon. So let's stop there for a second. Explain the lunar gateway that will be indeed orbiting around the Moon. So let's stop there for a second. Explain the lunar gateway. So lunar gateway is a sort of very reduced international space station. So it will be small, will be one third of the size of the international space station now. It will be orbit around the Moon, although it's going very far from the Moon. It's going as far as 70,000 kilometres and then it goes very close. It enables indeed the astronaut to go on the Moon, it's going as far as 70,000 kilometres and then it goes very close. It enables indeed the astronaut to go on the Moon's surface, do the exploration, do whatever they need

to do on the Moon, come back to the Gateway and then back with the Orion capsule to Earth. So the Gateway is like, as you say, a reduced international space station. And then the module, what is that like? I'm thinking like a box on the side of it? No, it's not a box, but it's very small. It's not like the ISS size, so it's a three meter diameter, but long seven meters. So when I say small, it's smaller than the ISS, but it's also true that

on the Gateway, the astronauts will not stay permanently like they are on the ISS, so it will be a sort of, the name is saying Gateway. You go there to go somewhere else, to the Moon surface initially, and long-term also to Mars, so with the initial excursion and then... So moon surface, first stop, second stop, Mars. Mars, very far in the future.

But the gateway will be used more to learn, to go on the moon and on the Mars, because on Mars you don't go the day after you go to the moon. It takes time, it takes technology development, it takes to learn. So gateway will be the place to learn. From there, you could go in what we call excursion to Mars and come back, but not really to Mars.

And come back. You see, I like that because all of the other excursions to Mars were one-way tickets as far as I had seen. Yeah, no. This one, hopefully, should be with the astronaut

way in return. I mean, that must be like that. Safety first. Safety first. No, I like that. But talk about these living quarters that you are creating. So important, right, for these people that are going up on this groundbreaking mission. What do you need to think about?

What's the biggest challenge? The biggest challenge is environment. It's not OK. The size is reduced because in that orbit, the mass counts a lot. So the capability to launch mass is not as easy, let's say, as for the International Space Station. And this is really a matter of technology, a matter of cost, a matter of sustainability of this kind of mission, of course. So we need to be very careful about the mass. But what is really different from ISS and the thing that we need to care is the environment.

Environment really means radiation, especially for the astronauts. Astronauts have never been there for a long time, so we need to really be careful because it can have, of course, health impacts. So we need to look at that. And then the rest that the module is really doing in terms of features is that it provides, as you said, what we call private crew quarters. So in which

the crew can really rest, sleep, but also... Can you sleep properly there? I've never been, but I've gone into the air. But you know, you're putting it all together for them. Yes, they get used. They get used to it. They get used to sleep, yes. There's no gravity, so, yeah, of course, it's smaller also there,

but they are passionate. They are really explorers, so they get used to everything. Let's talk about one of the explorers, the Artemis mission, is the one you are working on that talks about going to the moon and on to Mars, it sounds like,

at a later, later date, I understand. They're hoping to put a woman on the moon for the first time. How are you seeing that? And is it any different for a woman when you're designing the IHAP, for example? Well, first of all, it's very, very exciting. I mean, I'm really happy.

I'm happy to see a lot of women now coming into the picture at any level, in any job position. So that's very good that's very innovative was not like that when i started when i was a young girl studying now is much better um then design wise there is not much difference we really work we say with what is called the percentile so we design the modules for the galley area, for the private crew quarters, for everything based on two extremes. One is what we call the 5% female percentile.

So it's like really normally the 5% percentile is taking the typical body of the Asian woman. And then we go with the 95% male that is normally an American male. So in this way, covering the bot extreme, you really cover design-wise all the features. So apart from that, there is no real difference in terms of design. I'm talking about women and men in terms of design of the module. Have you ever been tempted to go to space yourself? No. No. I love space, of course. I love space. I was attracted first by aircraft, but I love space. But no, because actually, when I go underwater or under a tunnel, I feel

immediately like a bit, I don't like close environment. But of course, this is me, claustrophobic a bit. Yes. Yes. So not in the plane, for example. So that's funny. But still, I don't think that I will be able to really stay a long time in a confinement in which you cannot escape. So for me, they are brave. Absolutely. Isn't that fascinating, though, that you are your life's work is creating something that is a small space, but for others to go to kind of a place you don't want to go to. I don't want to go, but not because I will. I mean, I will be I will pay for I don't know what not money, but really my life to really be there and see the Earth.

And that will be really wonderful. I mean, magic. But really to, I'm not the kind of person that can live in this constrained environment. How did you end up as an aerospace engineer? I know you mentioned just to me briefly there that it was aircraft. It was aircraft, yes. It was for aircraft. I was not really attracted by space initially

but I was really looking at the aircraft and how they can fly so that was really my first question and then I moved from there. But how, what was that leap from airplane to spaceship? Yeah it was I would say work wise

I mean I have an aerospace engineering degree, but then I started more looking to aircraft. Then, you know, you search for a job, you're very young, and I ended up in Turing to the Thales Alinea space. And then I get passionate the day after I really apply to do job there. And then since then, I really work in the space field. But you say it has changed drastically from when you started, the amount of girls or women that are in it.

It also feels to me that there is such a huge interest in space, both private and publicly. You know, we were seeing about the successful launch of the Chandrayaan-3, the Indian spacecraft at the weekend, hoping to land near the south pole of the moon. Is this an industry that you feel is expanding in the right ways when it comes to diversity, inclusion? Yeah, it's expanding. We are really, I feel, at the border edge of a new era, so it's expanding. And women are eventually getting their position there.

So I started, as I was saying, as an aerospace engineer, aircraft at the beginning. And we were five females in the course. But every year for the newcomers, I was really seeing an increase, a rapid increase. Really, 10 the year after, and then 20, 30. I see also more a job at ESA, European Space Agency, we are really caring

about equal opportunities, so there are special programs, so the number of women are really increasing significantly in the key position, definitely in the legal, contractual position but also now they're starting the engineering, the technical field. I think that people like astronauts, like female astronaut, are key in this

because they really inspire generation. So I can, from my side, you know, I work daily in my office with industry, with international partner, NASA, CSA, JAXA, but the one that are really inspiring are the one more visible. So female astronaut are key for the next generation to select a stand position. They're superstars, right? They're inspirational and aspirational. But so many would say, hang on a second, we have all these problems on Earth that haven't been solved and it takes billions and billions of dollars, pounds, euros to initiate a space program.

And should money really be spent in this way? What would you say? I will say the return of investment is very high. How so? Yes, yes. It's been calculated there is a lot of return of investment. So there is a return of investment in terms of money. So the euro invested becomes, the pound invested becomes very,

it has a big return. There has been a lot of invention and discovery in space that have a terrestrial application, but also there is this great, in my view, return in terms of, for example, of education. So people get inspired by space, not only astronauts, but really people that are working every day, making this big construction, helping to explore.

And I repeat, we are explorers. We need to keep exploring because the humanity is exploring. And we will find things that we don't think that we will find. And maybe we'll explore something thinking that we will find the explanation of the solar system. We will not, but we need to keep exploring. And again, we will discover things that we don't expect. But then going back to education, I think the big return is also in people selecting STEM discipline as a style.

So science, technology, engineering and maths. Just before I let you go, do we know when there will be the launch? That is OK. Now I will say for IAB and the Artemis 4, I will say we are in 2028. But there are a lot of variables. It will be the first launch with the first expanded launcher. So the SLS Block 1B. So it will be, there are challenges to that. But let's hope for 2028. OK, but not hold our breath as we were hearing with Zoe Soltagna.

Thank you so much, Sara Pastor. Thank you. The event, The Engineers, Lunar Exploration, has been staged by the BBC World Service tonight in partnership with the Royal Commission for the Exhibition of 1851. It is fully booked, no surprise there, but you can listen to the discussion at midday on Saturday, the 12th of August

on the BBC World Service and on BBC Sounds. I have a message coming in from Julia. She says, I admit I'm not always terribly interested in actors talking about their lives and their latest projects, but I was riveted by Zoe. What a fascinating woman. And now I admire her for combining family with life on the road. I wish her even greater success. Let us move now on Woman's Hour to guardianship.

15 countries in the Middle East and North Africa still have laws requiring women to either obey, I put that in inverted commas, their husbands, or seek their permission to leave the marital home, work or indeed travel. It's according to a new report out from Human Rights Watch, which compares the state of male guardianship laws across the region. Senior women's rights researcher, Rathna Begum, iship laws across the region. Senior women's rights researcher Rathna Begum is here to explain the findings. Rathna, welcome to Woman's Hour. And perhaps you could explain just a little bit more that term male guardianship. Sure, thanks for having me on. Well, a guardian is someone who has legal authority over another person, usually a parent over a child. But in many of the Middle

East, North African countries, they still treat adult women like children. They force them under the guardianship of male relatives, like their father, brother, uncle, or their husband when they get married, who then has to give them permission for all sorts of things around their lives. But the male guardianship as a concept doesn't sit in any one place. It can take the form of a law, policy, or practice. And what I was examining specifically was laws, policies, and practice across the entire region, and how they were impacting women's freedom of movement from leaving the home, to obtaining a passport, to traveling abroad, and even whether they can act as guardians of their children on an equal basis with men

to be able to travel abroad. So what are you finding? Progress? Regression? Both. So on the one hand, we have some older restrictions, including the fact that in 15 countries, women are required to obey their husbands and live with them or seek their permission to leave the marital home. And if they're deemed disobedient, they can find themselves losing their right to spousal maintenance. We also found a number of countries like Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, where women can be reported to the police by their families, their male guardians, for being absent from the home, which can lead to the arrest and forcible return or facing administrative detention. So in a country like Jordan or Saudi Arabia, you could be detained

for weeks, months or years for simply trying to want to live independently outside of your family. Can I stop you for one second there just and we'll go to the progress, of course, as well. This is kind of intersecting with it, because I think a lot of my listeners what they'll think when they hear Saudi Arabia male guardianship is like at that time in 2018 when women were finally allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia and this was pointing to great progress for example and perhaps Saudi Arabia moving in the right direction I know lots of questions raised about it even at that time. So how do you see it? What's interesting is that, you know, when I say it's a mixed scene, we have women's rights activists who've made a number of gains.

And in Saudi Arabia, this is one of their areas where we saw 2018, they allowed women to drive. In 2019, they allowed women like men over the age of 21 to both obtain passports and travel abroad without guardian permission. Now, those are really important reforms. But then in March 2022, the Saudi authorities passed the very first personal status law, which actually codified male guardianship, which means that as a woman, you still have to obey your husband, a longstanding practice. And if you're found disobedient,

you can also face losing the right to spousal maintenance. So we're seeing in Saudi some potential reforms that are potentially helping women, but others that are actually regressing the situation in Saudi Arabia. The big issue in Saudi is because of the fact that they do not allow a civic space for women's rights activists to demand their own rights.

Women were imprisoned, tortured, and those who have been released are under travel bans and suspended sentences. So when you do see these reforms taking place, there isn't anyone there to actually give input or to actually ensure that these reforms are serious and real and will improve women's rights situation. Because my question was to be, whether we take Saudi Arabia or another country, Rathna, what can women do? I mean, you're talking about they're chipping away, let's say, at the driving restrictions, but then it pops up elsewhere as something even more restrictive. And if there isn't that civic space and if there aren't those institutions, civic institutions that would be able to affect change, how can they do it? I mean, we see moving to Iran instead when women, for example, protest in the street.

There is also that fear of being imprisoned, for example, or detained. I mean, that's right. Women have found very creative ways to really protest and push back on these discriminatory restrictions, and they have made progress. So most countries now do allow women to obtain passports or to travel abroad without guardian permission. But as you say, what we've also found is that there are new restrictions coming in at the same time. And so it's this kind of popping up game all the time, constantly having to defend the freedoms that they've won, and at the same time trying to push in advance your further freedoms. So we've got several countries that are now outliers. So where we have seen some reforms take place, there are specific countries that are now starkly in contrast. So we've got Qatar,

for instance. People don't know about this, but if you're an unmarried woman under the age of 25, you need an exit permit from your male guardian to travel abroad, which can be done on a mobile app. In Iran, if you're a married woman, then you need your husband's permission to obtain the passport and travel abroad. And he can withdraw that permission at any time, which prevents you from leaving the country. And in Yemen, the situation has got even worse. Not only do you need your male guardian's permission to obtain a passport, but under the Houthi authorities, which took over parts of Yemen, you need a mahram, a male relative, to accompany you on your travel or to even leave the country. So things are getting worse in several sort of contexts that we're finding as well.

But women are defying this in various ways. In Iran, the dress code has been one of the biggest limitations on their freedom of movement. They're going out on the streets, but they're also just going out without the hijab. They're just finding a way to basically live their lives where they're taking a walk outside, you know, in small ways, but that ways that would basically defy these rules that have been restricting women's freedom movement for a very long time. It's interesting you mentioned Yemen there, and your report also does say that armed groups may impose guardianship restrictions, of course, which would be a regression. But, you know, I notice in our conversation, Ratna, that we're speaking so much about women's mobility to be able to travel from one place to another. Why are you

putting so much emphasis on that? It's incredibly important to understand that a woman's ability to leave her own home impacts all hosts of rights. It's the ability to be able to work, to study, to live a part of civic life, to go pick up your kids from school, anything like that. All of these things are an inherent part of a woman being able to live her life. And so when you're being denied this because of laws that says your husband has the right to have you obey him and to get his permission to leave the home, that then situates men to have control over your life. And what we're seeing here is not just a denial of women's rights where women are being denied these commissions, but where this is actually fostering and furthering domestic violence. The act that the states are basically saying that men can have control over women's lives means that you're essentially condoning domestic violence, and you're allowing further violence to continue. So when we talk

about femicide in the region, it's not just happening for no reason. It's happening largely because of this contribution of these male guardianship restrictions and these rules and policies that situate men to have huge amount of control over women's lives. Ratna Begum, thank you so much for giving us the details there.

She is senior women's rights researcher. The new report is by Human Rights Watch. Let me turn to my next guest. Yomi Adegoke is an award-winning journalist and co-author of the best-selling guide Slay in Your Lane, a black girl's Bible. But now she is stepping into the world of fiction with her debut novel, The List. In it, journalist Ola and her fiancé Michael are getting married in a month.

But their excitement is shattered when a database of men and allegations of sexual harassment against them is anonymously posted on Twitter. Michael is on it. It's told from both of their perspectives and we follow the couple as they navigate the fallout, both online and in the real world. Yomi, welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks so much for having me. For having you back.

You were writing this book during lockdown, I believe. Why did you want to tell this particular story? So I wanted to tell it in particular during lockdown, I believe. Why did you want to tell this particular story? So I wanted to tell it in particular, doing lockdown because I can't bake. I constantly say that everyone else is making sourdough and cakes. And I was painting, but ran out of canvas and had nothing better to do. But I'd been interested in telling the story from 2017, when various lists like the list in the book were sort of going viral in various different industries. And I wanted to do a long form rather nonfiction piece that sort of investigated the claims and investigated, I suppose, that type of list. As a journalist, I kind of felt a level of conflict because whilst I absolutely understand and understood the importance of these kind of lists, as a feminist, I had a lot of

solidarity with those lists and felt that, yes, this is finally holding men to account that have been able to sort of flout the legal system, flout HR. But on the other hand I kind of felt like in the midst of a fake news crisis um you know with how easily anonymity can be weaponized online I did feel a little bit of conflict so I wanted to do it as a non-fiction journalistic piece um shelved it because I think the conversation was still quite fraught in 2017. And then I had multiple months during lockdown to give it a go as a fiction book. So I did. And you gave it a go and it's turned into a page turner, as I was saying to my listeners. I've loved it.

But it is fiction, as we've talked about. But it feels very resonant with recent news stories. You know, this idea of allegations being made online and then so challenging to get to the full truth. And you're talking about, as you say, in a post-MeToo world, maybe not post, but definitely in a MeToo world. And as some would call a fake news world or a post-truth society online. Yeah, no, absolutely. I feel like, as you said, it's very, we are very much sort of in the throes currently of Me Too. And lots of people have been saying it feels very, very topical and timely. And I've been saying that, you know, humbly, it's felt topical and timely.

You know, when I started writing it three years ago, it felt topical and timely even before that, because this is an ongoing conversation and something that's been unfolding in real time for a long time. And I think it will likely feel timely for a while. You know, because it's 2019 that the couple are getting married in. But when I read it, I felt like it had to be 2023, to be quite honest. And you've called the online world the Wild West. And I really wanted to know, do you think there is a way to tame it or make it civilized in the near future? A fantastic question. I think there is. I do not purport to have the answers, which a lot of people have sort of, you know, gone into the book expecting some sort of conclusion. I sign up, you've read it. So, you know, there are no answers in that book,

hopefully an entertaining time. But I don't claim to have the answers but I do feel that we are very much right now sleepwalking into a crisis I feel like um we are not yet reckoning or understanding how serious um how powerful rather the internet is I think we will look back on this period and think it was incredibly surreal and quite crazy that things have been able to go on as they have. I always say that the list is a book first and foremostly about the internet because whilst you know you can say it's about Me Too and cancel culture you know I could have written the exact same book about an anonymous TripAdvisor review that you know we kind of debate the veracity on and I just think that right now

the you know anonymity online is very important. And I understand why it's crucial to so many people and the way that they use the Internet. But, you know, I think a lot of people have watched the TV show Catfish, where you see how easy it is to pretend to be someone you're not online. And I think the clash with that, with, you know, the law and defamation is something we're not really thinking about. And also, I did study law at uni. So I think that's another reason it's really fascinating to me. The two main characters, they're a social media power couple. They are. They're creating, you know, their relationship, their lifestyle online. Aspirational and inspiring to many.

But can, you know, whether it's an Instagram account or whatever, an online account ever really reflect, do you feel, what's going on in a relationship? Or is it branding? Do you feel what's going on in a relationship or is it branding? Do you feel it's branding when you look at them? You know what? I think it's physically and feasibly possible, but most people don't really want to reflect reality, do they? Especially when you're, you know, I suppose when your livelihood is tied to your relationship or your couple.

I think most people don't want to show you know the the worst parts of their life online but I will say there's definitely been a pivot in recent years to sort of authenticity you know there's that sort of hashtag Instagram versus reality people showing you know what their lives are you know the bad bits of their lives people kind of showing that things aren't you know also curated yeah I was just, honestly, you took the words right out of my mouth. So I was going to say that's still a snapshot of, you know, that still being kind of folded into a brand. It's still kind of showing that relatability in and of itself.

A likeable version of craziness. Exactly that. So even that I'm skeptical. Of domesticity. Half of the book, though, is written from Michael's perspective. And I found this fascinating. Thank you. How did you get into the male accused headspace he has allegations against him for those that haven't read the book yet? So originally it was just from Ola's perspective only because I was fascinated in the women who, I suppose when something like this happens, especially if you identify as a feminist, you think you know how you'll behave. But when it came to Ola, whose brand is very heavily tied to her feminist identity I

thought that'd be really interesting to look at especially because women when they're attached to a man whether that's their brother or husband or friend that's been accused they're often there's often an assumption that they knew or you know complicity so after a while it did feel like something was missing and that's how Michael's perspective got sort of you know um sort of came into came to the fore and um I did a lot of research I did a lot of reading from um men who had been accused whether they were guilty or not because I wanted to keep the reader guessing throughout the whole book and just you do oh thank you very much doing my job thank you I'm thrilled um and it I you very much. Doing my job. Thank you. I'm thrilled. And I'm very much a girl's girl.

Grew up with, you know, all sisters and heavily female friendship group. So it was a struggle. And I had to keep asking my lone male friend about, you know, football references and, you know, what men talk about in their group chats to kind of get a level of realism. It was a lot of fun though. Yeah, it gives such pause for thought, that particular aspect as well within the book.

The headspace that it takes when I'm reading the book, that it takes to monitor what happens online, even away from the list, it appears to me to be just exhausting, like this whole other life to attend to in addition to your regular offline life. Do you ever feel that way? Oh, constantly. Constantly. I do think that, you know, I've been asked a lot about my feelings on social media

because I think a lot of people read it and they can probably read my frustration through the lines. I feel like lots of people that, you know, journalists or people that kind of have a frontward facing profession but aren't necessarily influencers or people who are you know social media savvy over the years have felt that they have no choice but to kind of yeah put themselves out there a little bit more do you get what I mean I started out you know without even a byline photo when I first started writing online and And fast forward a decade, and I've got a

whole curated Instagram and I talk about how unrealistic social media is and I feed that machine every day with the most curated images you're ever going to find online. So I tried to write the book from a perspective that isn't judgmental because I know I'm just as curated and kind of fake, inverted commas, online as everyone else is. Yeah. Yeah, I have to say it's quite something because it's the back and forth and, you know, the phone kind of being at the centre of life as well. Also, you've talked about, because there's a lot about race within it,

I feel, and London has this amazing backdrop as well and a little bit of Nigerian. Yeah, a little touch. Let me throw that in there as well. But you do say your next book will be about race, more so than the list, but very much of your own doing

as something you want to talk about. Yes. In our last 40 seconds or so, what do you want to get to? So I am very excited about my second book. I had no intentions of writing a second book, but I did have another idea that was similar to the list in terms of it being quite controversial and contentious.

And it is about race. I can't say much more than that. But I think with the list, I was really excited because it isn't a book about race and I hope it's universal. But I really loved being able to look at the specific ways in which these kind of allegations do affect black men differently to their white counterparts and I'm very sort of excited about the conversations that in particular that element will raise but yeah and I'm also very glad that you mentioned it's kind of a love letter to London in many ways especially South London. Oh 100 percent

100 percent have you started writing the second book? I have. It's been a very difficult process, especially in the throes of press, but I'm enjoying it. It's a nice distraction. I cannot wait to watch The List because I hear this TV writes as well. Thanks to Yome Adegoke.

Yome will be in conversation with Bernadine Evaristo about her novel The List at the Southbank Centre in London this Thursday at 7.30pm. And tomorrow, Lists. We will be looking at the Southbank Centre in London this Thursday at 7.30pm. And tomorrow, lists. We will be looking at the how and why of lists, why we make them, whether they help with the demands of our life,

why women seem to rely on them more than men, also the darker sides of lists. Do join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Mosley, and in my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Stay Young, I'm investigating some simple, scientifically proven things you can do to rejuvenate yourself from the inside out.

Which will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. try. Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp. Hi, OK. How about lifting some weights to protect your muscles against the ravages of time? That was quite tough.

To hear all about how to stay young, subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. start like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.