Women at Work - Ask the Amys

Episode Date: November 20, 2023

What if one of your first assignments at a new job was to fire people? What should you do if the person leading a project you’re on isn’t giving clear direction, demands that you work nights and weekends, bristles at your feedback—and leadership tells you to fall in line? These are two of the five situations that Amy B and Amy G talk through in this episode. They offer advice to the women who wrote in with their questions, with the hope that it will help them and anyone who’s been in a similar situation, or might be one unfortunate day.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. It's time for Ask the Emmys. Yay! One of my favorite types of episodes that we do. I love doing this. Yeah. We hear from listeners all the time, mostly through our inbox, with questions.

They want advice about a situation they're facing. And we always want to help. And sometimes it leads to an episode idea but then sometimes we just want to get into the specifics of someone's issue and give them some advice yeah i always learn on these episodes yeah you know i learn what what's on people's minds but i also learn from the process of thinking through. Right. Right.

And answer with you. Yeah. Like what could be going on? What could the person try out? And also, what are we missing? Because I think sometimes there's cues in the email or in what they say that just makes us realize there's something else going on. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It just makes us realize there's something else going on. But we're sitting on this wealth of knowledge that is the archive on hbr.org of all of our articles.

You and I get to interact with experts all the time who give this sort of advice. Yeah, we're like the HBR archive bots. So should we get started? Yeah. Let me start with this one from someone who had listened to the episode, The Ups and Downs of Being a First-Time Manager from Season 8, which actually led to our How to Manage series, which came out in June. And she has a follow-up question. She writes, technically, I am not a manager. No one reports up to me, but younger associates work with me on many projects where I am the lead.

We report into the same boss, but he's very hands-off to the point where I'm essentially these people's manager in theory. I don't have a say into their performance review, salary, or career progression within the company. Any suggestions on how to navigate being a manager in spirit, but not on paper? Yeah, there's a lot going on in this. Part of it is the challenge of leading without authority. Yes. Right. And particularly in a world of projects, we're all going to have to face that challenge. How do you lead without authority? And I think that if a lack of definition is making her uncomfortable, then maybe she should propose to her boss a definition. So tell me what I can do and what I can't do, or better yet, given this project and the needs, here's how I propose the decision rights work. Yeah. Well, and then it sounds to me what I was hearing from her is that she's really mentoring these people, even though they technically have this other boss that she also has.

Right. But she's now they're coming to her. She can help them as well figure out how to advance the way they want to advance. And the other thing she can do is even though no one's asking her for input into her mentee's performance, doesn't mean she can't give it. Yes. Right? Right. She can sort of lean into the informal ways she's leading, giving people direction, mentoring them. And like you said, speaking up when it's time for their performance review, I have thoughts on the way they've performed I'd like to share. And while she can't necessarily make the concrete decisions around salary and career progression, she can be a positive force in their career. actually is managing some you look at that last part of the question that she asked how to navigate

being a manager in spirit but not on paper i think that is where she should yeah where she should go to her boss with a constructive suggestion of how to define decision rights yeah and responsibilities well and i think my advice would be to maybe do the managing in spirit for a while. You know, does she like it? With the attitude of, yes, it's going to add time and energy to her plate, which she may not have, but that experience will ideally help her later. Maybe in this role gets more formalized. Maybe she does take on managing some of the team members. Maybe she does get to have more decision rights.

But also, whatever role she takes on next, she now gets to say she has management experience, even if it's not formal. Exactly. And to pay attention to the dynamics of the team and how her leadership kind of lands with people over whom she does not have formal authority, and to figure out how she wants to show up in a leadership role when she doesn't have direct reports. Yes. Right? Well, and it's an opportunity to try things out, see what works, what doesn't.

I mean, in some ways, the pressure's off because no one's expecting her to do this. She can lean into it in any way she wants, and she doesn't have to do all of the paperwork and all the stuff that people say they don't like about management. Yeah. No one ever said, boy, I wish I could do five more performance reviews. No one. No.

Ever. Yeah. I will say the thing that concerns me is that this becomes a suck on her time, on her energy, and she is in no way compensated or recognized for it. I would encourage her to document what she's doing, right? Write it down. In what way is she playing the role of manager? Keep track of that. So if there does become an opportunity that she can either step into her boss's role or maybe manage a few of those people on the team, that she has the evidence that she's been doing it. Such a good point. And a lot of times people are held back from promotion because they aren't

people managers. And this is where I would pull out that document that you just described and say, well, I'm not formally a people manager, but I am an informal people manager. And, you know, I've been pretty successful at it. Yeah. Again, leaning into the opportunity that's been presented to her, as long as she is making sure she is keeping her eye on the prize, which is ultimately to get rewarded and recognized for making this effort. Yeah, well put. So let's take the next question. And this one comes from a woman who left the workforce for two years to have children, came back as an assistant, and then got another role in the same company as a manager. One and a half years into this role, she says, I'm still having trouble with a few teammates.

I've done all that I can to help serve this part of the team, but still find that I can't win them over. It doesn't help that I'm the only female in leadership in this male-dominated industry and young enough to be their daughter. I'm hoping that you can weigh in on my experience so that I can grow and become a stronger leader for my team. All right, Amy, unpack that. You know, the first thing that comes to mind is Teresa Cartador's research about the pressures on women

in male-dominated industries to leave and the fact that they're often given these managerial roles where they don't have the same expertise as the people they're managing. And so then they feel like a fish out of water to steal the subject line of this email we got from this woman here. The distance between her and the people she's managing just keeps getting greater. And I think really what she needs to think about is there a way to win over these teammates, you know, and it's interesting, she calls them teammates, she doesn't call them direct reports, even though she's their supervisor.

There's a couple things in here that I want to dig into next. Let's talk a little bit about how she sort of wins their trust, but also just about her mindset. So let's get there in a minute. But in terms of building the trust, one of the things I would encourage her to do is to think about what is it those people need some resources that would help them do their job better and approval from finance or hr is there something that she can help them win to show that she's on their side and it shows competence right correct you know uh francis fry and anne morris have this famous sort of triangle of trust and the three components are competence, right? Empathy. And then the third one, I always forget the middle one. Authenticity. Authenticity. Thank you. So your idea, I think digging in on the competence thing, you know. And then that's the game she's playing. And by game, I don't mean, you know, it's not some sort of sham. Yeah. But she needs to think about where she's going to play and how she's going to win on that front. I agree.

And I think that she needs to maybe even go back to the people who gave her this position, who saw the potential in her and ask, what was it you saw in me that made you take that? And she actually says, we didn't read it, but she says she against all odds was given this job. I want to say, no, not against all odds, rewarded based on who you are. Well, that's the mindset piece that you brought up. I think we should get into that. What you're thinking. I mean, even the language around help me become a stronger leader for my team, which I love, right? It's like that servant mindset. But what I worry is that she's actually coming from a place of deficit. Yes. Right. I'm lucky to have this job. No wonder these guys don't trust me. Rather than here's what I bring that these guys don't have. Yeah. Which is probably something that that team really needed or she wouldn't have been given the role.

And that change in channel, you know, I come in with my own strengths. Yeah. I was put here for a reason. And, you know, I have a lot to learn. Yeah. Help me learn it. Mm-hmm. And in the meantime, let's address your needs.

Yep. You know, she's got to give it her best shot. You know, it's hard to know what's in their heads. It is. And to be fair, their heads may be full of bias, ageism, sexism. We don't know. Right. Definitely don't let that be the loudest voice in her head.

You're the only woman. You're young enough to be their daughter. You know, this may be true. What are you going to do about it? Exactly. And the other thing that I just want to remind her of is that her role as manager is to orchestrate the efforts of her team so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's to remove obstacles. It's to bring out the best in them, to help them

work together, to help them move forward. And in doing that part well, she's going to establish trust, right? Yeah. And two other thoughts. One is that it sounds like there's just a few of these folks who she feels like she's not working well with. I would think about what worked in building the relationships with the other people. And can you double down on some of that? If there's someone you're managing that you really trust, maybe even ask them, like, you know, I was new to this role. What made you believe I could do this? And then, you know, my experience tells me is that there are some people you're just never going to win over. And then further experience tells me that when you stop trying, you often do win them over. Well, that is interesting.

I mean, maybe she looks like she's trying so hard. I think that line is also about your mindset of like, am I doing everything in this relationship to try to make it work? Or am I doing my part and waiting for the other side to show up? Right. Because if they're not doing anything, that's where you sort of start chasing the approval or chasing the relationship. Do not chase. No. Like just do your part. Establish the boundary. I've done my part. Now it's time for them to show up. And that mindset, I think, will make them not sniff that desperation. Exactly. You can change the dynamic. Yeah.

You know, if she does all this and it still doesn't work, right? She's still finding these particular teammates tough. I do think there might be a chance, an opportunity to sit down with not all of them at the same time, but maybe there's one who's a real sort of influencer among the group and say, you know, I feel like we haven't had the best working relationship since I started.

And I'm just curious, is there anything I could do to better support you? Right. And just make it a really direct, honest conversation. Like, I sense there's some tension still between us and I really want to clear the air. Yeah. What can we do to do that? I mean, don't let the reason for this problem be that she clear the air. Yeah. What can we do to do that? I mean, don't let the reason for this problem be that she didn't try. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I still love the advice you just

gave, which is sometimes you won't win them over. Sometimes you won't win them over and that is not catastrophic. Yeah. That's the other thing I would ask her. If she says she's having trouble with these teammates, is the trouble hindering the work? Yeah. Or is it really just for her, I can understand as a manager, wanting your team to like you, wanting your team to show you respect. But is it actually standing in the way of her doing her job? If it is, absolutely. Take all these steps that we've talked about.

If it's not, maybe let it go for a while. Yeah. Let it go. See what happens. You know, just in changing the way she thinks about her role, she might change the way these resistors see her. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and

forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Hey listeners, if you want to hear from more leaders to help you answer questions like, should I talk about my anxiety at work? Or how do I claim my leadership power? Then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Mudupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts.

Let's take another question from someone who's also a first-time manager. She takes this new role. It was a great promotion. Then the supervisor, her supervisor, tells her in the first month that the person who was in her position was actually demoted. And now it's her responsibility to let them go. On top of that, there are also two or three staff, this supervisor tells her, who've been there too long and have too high of a salary and she needs to find a way to get rid of them.

So she's asking, how do you deal with the feeling of being a villain who came into a new company and disturbed people's life, literally? Boy, that is really tough. I i mean first of all she she should recognize that she was put in a horrific position yeah that is you know hiring someone and then and then laying on their desk yes the demand that they fire people i I mean, and she's a first time manager. She's never managed before. And she was totally set up. Yeah, she was totally set up. She needs help. Yes. There's no way she can navigate this or be expected to navigate this on her own. So she

needs help from that supervisor. She needs help from maybe HR on how to navigate this. Yes. Maybe there's a mentor who's maybe done this before, let people go before who can mentor her through this. She should not take this on alone. Don't take it on alone. And is this the company you want to work for? Is this the manager you want to work for? Because this is just the first thing that's happened. Right. Right. So there's that. If there's no HR help to be gotten, I do think she should ask her manager to sit in the do this. And that doesn't seem right. And she has every right to kind of call out her manager on that. That is very poor management. Well, I think about all those articles we've published about middle managers

who have to deliver news that they don't agree with or that they're concerned about, that they don't believe in, and whether that's a major organizational change, restructuring, layoffs. And a lot of the advice is to really try to understand. And I think I've even heard you say this, right? Like, try to understand the rationale. So I would just ask a ton of questions. Yes, of the manager who gave her this directive. And to keep asking until she's satisfied. Because she cannot deliver this news without feeling that she's understood it.

Right. Yeah. And to push back. I mean, I have to tell you, I once came into a new job and was told, you know, you can go ahead and fire X, Y, and Z person. Really? And I said, that doesn't seem like a very good way to come into a new job and didn't do it. Right. The idea that I can make my own team, you know, that's a positive message.

Yeah. But telling me that I can get rid of people before I've even gotten a chance to know. But so I said, I don't, how can I fire people I don't know? You know, you're making me think maybe there's more room. The way she's explained this to us, it sounds like she's been given these directives. By asking those questions, which I think she's totally in her right to ask, maybe she'll find out there's actually a little more room here, either time-wise, they don't have to be let go right away. I would say, as a first-time manager, and this is essentially, I think, what you were saying in that position you were in of, I want to get to know these people before I make that call. Right. Well, as she's investigating the rationale for getting rid of these people, if it's a question of performance, the first thing I would ask is, have they been told that their performance is disappointing? And have they been given that their performance is disappointing

and have they been given a way forward? Has anyone tried to coach them? Yeah. The other thing is that if this is a question of budget, we're downsizing, then how are these decisions made? Right. How did you decide on person A, right? I don't understand a rationale called they've been there too long.

Yes. Right. So I would push back hard against that. What does that even mean? Right. I have to say, I don't feel super hopeful for this situation because it just sounds, what I'm really hoping is that there's more room here than she thinks and that by asking questions and asking for help, she'll find out there's more behind these decisions than what she's been given. However, if we take it what's happening at face value, there's part of me that is like, get out. Get out. Yeah. Get out. And if people ask, if you're interviewing for jobs and people ask, so you were given this great opportunity, why'd you leave? You can say, you don't have to give details, but you can say, I had a profound disagreement

on management approach. And I thought it was better all the way around if I separated myself from that company. Yeah. I mean, she might even say the way I was asked to manage was not aligned with my values. And I'm looking for a position in which I can be a great manager and also act according to my values. Right. People get trapped by their current jobs because they can't pull the camera back far enough to see that this isn't the last job they'll ever have.

Yeah. The thing that seems so unfair is for this to be her first experience. Someone with 10 years, 20 years, 30 years of managing experience would still find this. Oh my God, I would lose sleep over this. Yeah. But this is a crucible moment. She can't let it break her. Yeah. I mean, again, I go back to the ask for so much help, right? HR, your manager, whoever you need to ask for help from. This is not just about the impact on the people who she is supposed to be letting go. Let's say she's able to find a way to do that that's aligned with her values, these three people.

She still has a team who sees her as someone who came in and let what seems probably like a good proportion of the team go. And so I think she really has to think about the impact on her of these immediate decisions, but also on the broader team. Right. I totally agree with that. And again, she shouldn't do anything until she is satisfied that she understands the rationale and she can embrace it. And if she can't, maybe she can go back to her old company and find her next job and find her next job. She's now had invaluable experience and she knows herself a lot better. Right. Yeah. Oh, deepest, deepest sympathy for this one. Right. Such a such a is also working for a really bad boss. They're everywhere, aren't they?

Yes, they are. He dismisses her ideas, her suggestions for how to help the project move more efficiently. And he insists that the team work late nights and weekends because that's what's quote unquote correct. He refuses to admit his faults, and he likes to blame our listener whenever she raises the boundary issues about working late nights and weekends, or if she questions him on strategy. She does admit that she's challenging him, but she doesn't do it to get him angry. She's asking him these questions so she can understand. She's doing it in a calm tone, but he still gets rattled and he gets pissed off.

And she's now worried about the success of this project. When she's gone above her boss to leadership to raise her concerns, they tell her just fall in line, do what this boss tells her to do. But she's already ruffled her boss's feathers. And now she's in a place, she says, where it's basically impossible to change his behavior or protect herself from the effects he has on her. She says her mental health is suffering. And she also has seen him giving feedback over her head to leaders without even sharing it with her. So he's going behind her back and talking about her without giving

her a chance. Because she challenged him. Because she challenged him. So he's undermining her. And so she called him out on this and asked him to share his feedback so she could improve. Right. So she could take some action. Yeah. So now she's documenting her own work just so she has the evidence that she's doing what she's supposed to do. Yeah.

So she writes, I honestly feel like I should leave this project as there is no way we can change bad management styles. I'm curious about your point of view. How would you suggest we get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and our health? All right, Amy. Yeah. That's an easy one for you. Yeah, totally. No problem.

So I would just first say documentation is so key. I'm so glad she's doing that. Keep doing it. Document not just your own work and what you're doing, but also any interactions with him. I just think that's going to be crucial. It sounds like this might come to a head again. So I would just be prepared for that. And then I think it sounds like she had sort of three, maybe two options. Well, one option could be, you know, she says we can't change bad management styles. Sometimes that's true. I think most of the time that's true. But is there another person she can go to? Like, I would just ask herself, has she really exhausted all channels? And the answer may be yes. It sounds

like she's done a lot. I mean, she's gone to the leaders of that project. I know. I know. So that's why I said maybe two options, because I'm not sure that's one. The two other options are to stay on the project and figure out how to tolerate this behavior. I do think if she just sort of falls in line, he may calm down. Like, I think he's reacting to her challenge. And then I think the other option is to leave. It sounds like it's a consulting or professional services firm. There may be other projects she can get staff. Yeah, that's where I would go because I think she's made a gallon after.

I know. And this guy is insisting on late nights and weekends. She raises legitimate issues with that, what she calls the boundaries. Yeah. And she got no satisfaction on it. So I get that her health is suffering. And I bet it's physical and mental health. Yeah.

Those long hours take a toll. Yeah. I noticed that she asks us how we'd suggest she get along with bad managers without losing our sanity and health. And I'm not sure that's even possible. If you can't tolerate their management, then I don't think getting along with them is the goal. Well, I mean, I think that this boss reminds me of like two chapters in my book, like one about insecure managers and one about what I call the tormentor, someone who you hope would be a mentor, but actually undermines you. And I think he falls into both those categories. And I do think she's done a lot of the things already that I would advise. So I think we sort of have to fast forward to,

yes, you've tried to get along. The question really is about protecting your sanity. Then it's about disengaging, recognizing this is not about you. This is not your failure. This is a situation you've been put in that isn't fair. Is there a way to heads down do your work? Are there people on the team who you enjoy working with? Can you find ways to spend more time with them? Can you find ways to, you know, even vent with one another about maybe the impact he's having. Sometimes even just knowing you're not in it alone can help. That said, I'm not sure she's going to get there based on what she's saying. I hope she asks herself what she's getting out of this job other than a paycheck.

Well, what she's getting out of this project, right? Exactly. That's, I think, the escape valve here is like, if this is a professional services firm where it won't be extremely damaging to her career, she wouldn't lose her job where she can say, it's just not working. I've talked to you all about how it's not working. Is it possible to get put on another? Right. And if it's not possible to get put on another project, you know, is there another company which she might want to work yeah you know i think i talk to people all the time who are just in just have terrible bosses

but don't want to leave the job for whatever reason or and have tried really made gallant efforts just like this woman has and it is really about finding the emotional distance from it and it sounds like she's she's sort of been hooked into it for a while. And could she just give herself, even if it's just a week, if she let herself for a week disengage from this person's behavior, yes, she's going to have to work late. Yes, she's going to have to fall into line, do things that she wouldn't normally do and she thinks are not necessarily the right direction for the project. But if she does that and disengages emotionally from it for a week, how does she feel? Maybe his ego is really sensitive. Maybe he's deeply insecure, but something about her and challenging him has really put him in a position of not being able to be open to any feedback, being open to considering changing things. And I think once you get someone in that corner, they start to behave like a caged animal. And she's got to back off from that.

Yes. It's not effective. Well, she's banging her head against a wall. So. Yeah. Yeah. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball?

Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Okay, let's go to one more. Also someone who actually was in a difficult situation,

but sounds like she's gotten out of it, which I love. So she left her job that she was at for two and a half years, and she's about to be starting at a new company with a better role. She sounds like it's checking all the boxes for her in terms of what she wanted in a next position. The problem is she's worried that the baggage of her previous job, in particular, the manager she had in this last, she hasn't used this word, but I would say toxic environment. You know, she said that she had managers who relied on passive aggressive comments, microaggressions, micromanagement were biased against women, right? So she's worried that that previous experience is going to affect this new role. So she's asking for our advice about what happens when you leave

a job where you didn't have the best bosses, which sounds kind, honestly, she had terrible bosses, and how do you not let that affect your new position? Well, she's already ahead of the game because she has self-awareness. So she can be aware that her new colleagues are innocent until proven guilty. Right. And that's a question of fairness. But it's also giving herself a chance to thrive in the new environment. Right. Yeah, exactly.

I love that. And I think she needs some closure from that last job. I have been given the advice in my life many times to like write a letter to myself about something and I'm always roll my eyes. But I actually did it. I went through actually this tough period in the spring and someone said, just write a letter to yourself about how you got through it. I've actually looked at that letter multiple times because it was like giving myself compassion. It was reflecting on my strengths, what I did to get through that period. And I feel like I don't like to give this advice because it does make me roll my eyes a little, but I do wonder if she might write a letter to herself about how she survived that experience.

I love this idea. And what she's taking away from it and what she wants to do differently, just as a sort of putting a bookend on that's done. And turn the horror into something a little more constructive. What she learned about bad management, what she learned about herself and her own values as both an employee and as a manager, right? And how she wants to turn this terrible experience into better leadership when she gets that opportunity. Yes. Right? I mean, I would even like fold a piece of paper in half and write down on the left side all the things she does not want to do as a manager herself because that's in her control.

She can't control this new environment and all the things she will do. Right. And that might be values. That might be behaviors. But then for her, it's really clear. This is what I can control. This is what I'm doing to be my best self in this new role. But I think you also, you know, when you started off right away with self-awareness, I think you hit the nail on the head because she also needs to be

aware that she is going to be prone to see those things. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I would say if she could give herself the breathing room to be open and to give herself a fresh start and to give her new colleagues the chance to prove themselves as great co-workers, then it might be that the pain of the last experience fades more quickly. Yeah. You know, Heidi Grant wrote this article for us about goal setting years ago, and she in it, she had this tool like if this happens, then. It's like if then statements. And I feel like that tool could be adapted here in that she could say, you know, if I start to think that I'm being micromanaged, then I will try to give the person the benefit of the doubt. Right.

If I notice it happened twice, I will document it so I can make sure I'm seeing it clearly. Whatever, just creating if-then statements for what will happen if she starts to find herself triggered by some of what she's seeing as feeling like it's the same as the last. And that'll save her from leaping to conclusions shaped by the past experience that may not actually be apt for the present one. Yeah. by the past experience that may not actually be apt for the present one. So, Amy, I get so much out of listening to your advice, and you've been doing this for a while. And in fact, you have an advice column on hbr.org called Getting Along, and you cover a broad range of topics. Yeah. I mean, so far I've answered

questions from people about what to do when a coworker sabotaging you, but your boss won't pay attention. One person was a woman of color who was trying to navigate what she called this frat-like subculture in her organization. And one was from a guy who just felt like his boss didn't trust him at all. So how do people actually ask you for advice? If you look for those articles online, you can actually, we'll put one in the show notes so you can see. There's a link at the bottom how you can submit a question. So if you have a question like one you heard today, feel free to submit it there and hopefully I'll be able to answer it in a future installment. You are very wise. Gosh, I feel like I'm, sometimes I feel like the things I say are just

repeats of what you've told me before. Not exactly. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. And I'm Amy Bernstein. Next week, have you ever considered joining a board? It has been one of the most incredible professional experiences I've had, one of the greatest parts of my career. Hear from several women who've tried it, loved it, and volunteered to share what they wished they'd known going in.

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