Women at Work - Communicating Effectively When You’re Running on Empty

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Leadership development coach Muriel Wilkins talks us through communication techniques that meet you where you’re at mentally and emotionally so that you can rise to the moment (even when you’re worried you can’t).

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. I'm Amy Bernstein. I'm Amy Gallo. Communicating clearly, completely, and persuasively sets you up to have the impact and influence you're after. It's how we pitch our brilliant ideas, connect with an audience, inspire others, and win support. But expressing your ideas when you're sleep-deprived, burned out, or in perimenopausal brain fog can feel nearly impossible. Add to that having to deliver a message you don't agree with? Ugh. So what then? Because dodging the conversation isn't always an option or the right option. So how do we rise to the moment, even when we're worried we can't?

Muriel Wilkins has ideas. She's a leadership development coach who hosts the HBR podcast Coaching Real Leaders. During our recent Women at Work Live virtual event, she talked us through communication techniques that meet you where you're at mentally and emotionally. I started by asking her if there was a particular communication skill that she'd been working on. Oh my gosh. I feel like I've been working on it for 52 years, basically my whole life. And it might not be what you expect because I think people will probably say, oh, how do I communicate clearly? For me, the communication issue that I'm working on and it's a lifelong journey is that of listening and really listening to understand rather than just listen so I can play back what

the person said, right? So listening in a way to make others feel heard, make others feel understood, not necessarily to agree with them, but just so that I can get to a place of understanding before I move on to actually talking. Yeah. I just think about how hard it is to do that, to listen when you're feeling all the stress we were just talking about of all of these pressures that are on you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I mean, I say it's listening because, you know, you asked me about

communications, but I actually think the deeper work there is about not being reactive. And so listening helps me not be as reactive, which we're all prone to do, especially under stress. So yeah. You know what it makes me think of Muriel is, so last week I was actually working on a communication challenge and that was a presentation to the board. It turned out to be like four and a half seconds of my speaking, but somehow it took over my entire life. And what I really needed to figure out was how to calm myself so I could be present, so I could hear what people were saying, really listen to the questions.

And it sounds a lot like what you were just talking about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, mindfulness has become such a big word and we can get overwhelmed by it. I know I have where like, what the heck is this thing we call mindfulness? Like, what are people talking about? Right. And even like breathing. But then once I got it, that it's just a matter of like trying to anchor yourself and trying

to stay with what the person is saying, because that's the only thing that's happening at the moment. Then I kind of got what that means. And so calming yourself down in that way, sometimes just getting some type of anchor, it could be the other person's voice, or your own is really helpful in doing that. So yeah, I love that. You know, I have to say for me, and I don't think either of you will be surprised to hear this. But the thing I'm working on is not just talking and talking and talking because I'm tired, or unfocused or not able to listen. And I just fill the time. Actually, this happened this

morning. I said some very long three sentence thing to Amy B and she summarized it in like a three word phrase. And I was like, yeah, that's what I meant's my that's my challenge yeah is the just talking and not being able to like stop right because we're too tired to stop sometimes right ironically we have eight million things happening in our head at the same time i'm trying to listen i'm trying to say this and is this the right thing i'm trying to monitor the person's reaction i'm also dealing with all the stuff that's not even in the room at the moment, right? All the stress in my life that's not there. Muriel, I've been dying to ask you this. How do you know if you're even in the right frame of mind to deliver an important message of any sort? Look, I think it takes a practice to figure

that out. I mean, I just mentioned mindfulness, right? And what does that actually mean? It's being aware of what's happening for you at the moment. You know, a lot of times we might run into a communication or meeting or presentation and halfway through, we feel like we're running out of steam or afterwards we feel like, oh man, I was too tired to do that or I just wasn't really prepared. But that doesn't really help. What helps is being aware of that before you go so that then you can do something about it. So I think the first place is really checking in with yourself, right? How am I feeling? Do I feel tired? Do I feel frustrated? Do I feel angry? What are the emotions that are happening? Am I prepared,

right at a real tactical level? And based on what your answer is, then knowing what can you do within the time that you have, whether it's a no, no go decision. And if it's a go decision, which I'm sure we're going to explore, how do you handle it? But I think the first place is really to start with, where am I? And most people don't even know that part. Yeah. I struggle with that because sometimes I think I'm fine, right? Like I feel the energy of like, oh no, okay, we're in it, we're in it. And then I look back and I think, oh, I was not prepared to have that conversation or I was not ready to deliver that message. You have to figure out what your threshold is. Like, what are your blocks for me?

Even if I'm, I mean, I feel like I'm, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'll say it anyway. I mean, I feel like I'm like persistently tired. Like I just, you know, but I'm an endurance person. So I'm okay with, you know, and then I have to take breaks. So even if I'm tired, I'm okay communicating, right? Whereas for somebody else, it might not be the case. I know for me, if I'm angry or frustrated, not a good time for me to communicate. Recognizing what are the emotions or the states that don't put you in the best

conditions and they're different for everyone. I sometimes get kind of weary and I'm so used to pushing through. And the price of doing that for me is that I don't have much patience on the other end, so I can deliver the message, but the follow-up leaves a lot to be desired. When I know I'm weary, I ask myself, can I put this off for 24 hours? I love what you just said, Amy, because it's not just about do you have the energy to's not just about, do you have the energy to deliver the message, but do you have the energy to actually engage in the conversation that's going to result? Exactly. Right. And I think that's, we underestimate the sort of length of the communication. It's not just about getting the words out of your mouth, but then it's

listening, responding, all of that. Yeah. And my further check to that is I always ask myself when I think about responding in the moment, I've done the wrong thing. I've delivered the tough message, even though I'm really not in the right frame of mind. I take a breath before I respond to whatever I'm hearing and ask myself, is what I'm about to say proportional? Right. Right. Right. And do you need to respond? Sometimes, I mean, that's, you know, you started off with, I happen to have somebody very close to me, also known as my husband, whose, whose favorite line is, not everything really requires a response. And I've had to learn that as a response, you know?

And I've had to learn that as a practice. Like I actually think there's something based that we're so conditioned to respond to everything, right? React to everything. And I think there's just as much of an impact, not only on yourself, but on others to actually make a choice as to, A, do I need to respond?

B, even more importantly at times, especially in heated discussions, is this worthy of a response? Yeah. Right? Okay, but how do you do that, Muriel? How do you not respond and not be insulting at the same time? I mean, I, you know, I will share how I do it. To be honest, most times when I don't respond, it's a boundary on myself, not on the other. It's I know that if I respond right now, it's going to come out ugly, right? It's going to have an impact and an affect that is not the outcome that I'm driving to. And as you talked about, Amy B, around like what happens after the meeting,

like I don't want to have to deal with those repercussions. So it's probably best if I either just let the person keep talking or keep my response, you know, short. So it's often a boundary on myself rather than the other. Now, if I feel like I'm not going to get anywhere with the person, given their state, given how they walked in, that no matter what I say, we're not going to be able to move forward. I choose very consciously not to respond in that moment. And I will say, you know, so I hear you. Here's what's happening. Here's what I have to say now. Let me think about it. Let me come back to it and just figure out what is the actual information that they need at this very moment, because they often don't need the whole soliloquy. You know, they just need like, here's what you need to do next. That's it. Move on. What does the future hold for business?

Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. Thank you. professor, Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts.

There's a question from our audience, which is something I'm curious about too. And it's when you do need that space and time to think. When the go, no-go decision is no-go, right? I'm too tired. I'm not ready. How do you effectively communicate that to a team who's maybe ready to engage, who's actually eager to have the conversation? I think you ask, you check in, right? You don't assume that they have to go now. I actually ran into this situation yesterday where I thought the other person was ready to go. I actually wasn't. And I walked into the meeting telling myself, I'm not feeling it. They got on and they said, Yeah, you know, this and this is going on, they had a lot going on that day. So well, you know, how would you feel about us kind of regrouping

at the end of the week, instead of doing this now, because I know I'm in a place where this is probably not the best time for us to talk about this. And he was like, Yeah, let's do that. Right? Now, if he had said, actually, no, this is the only time that I have, and we need to move forward, I would have moved forward with it. But I think this notion of checking in with people and asking rather than assuming the worst thing they can say is, no, we need to do it now. And that's not really the worst because it's what you were expecting anyway. Right. So in a gentle way, I think without any fluster, just being able to ask is good enough. And I think we'll at least

give you an answer. But what if you don't have that option? What if you really have to move forward and you're not feeling it? You know, at that point, I mean, this is what life's all about, right? Like, I mean, how many, let me tell you something that I feel like getting on that treadmill this morning. No, but I did, you know? So I think you focus on the outcome. What is the outcome you're looking to drive to? There's a saying around, you know, particularly for a lot of, I'm a somewhat of a runner. And one of the things we talk about all the time when we do endurance running is think about how you're going to feel afterwards. Yes, you might be dreading it going in. You might feeling wary.

I think you've got to say, OK, why am I doing this? You then anchor in the why. What's the purpose? What's the outcome? Rather than how I'm feeling. You take it outside of yourself, right? Now, you can't do that in perpetuity because that's what then leads to burnout. But I think every now and then to be able to say, okay, yeah, I don't want to do this.

I don't like to do it, but I got to do it anyway. So let me figure out what my why is. And I think a lot of that why is in the outcome. And so being secure, if you don't know the outcome you're driving to, you're going to have a very, very hard time getting past those emotions. I love this point because if you're focused on the purpose or the outcome or the goal, right, then you're not getting wrapped up in the short-term goal, which is get this conversation over with or make this person happy. Yeah. And the outcome isn't always necessarily

like get the project approved. I always, when I talk to my coaching clients, I always say there's the outcome, kind of the content, the task outcome. But the other outcome is how do you want to leave this meeting or this conversation feeling? And how do you want them to feel about you when the conversation is over? That is just as important as the other piece. And you know, in woo woo terms, it's kind of like, what's the energy that you want to create in this conversation? And because the energy is going to be created by both of you or by everybody in the room, what do you bring to the table? And then you try to shift to that as much as you can. Yeah, you know, we have a question from Francesca, who's asking,

basically, how do you do this? So you have your purpose, you write, you have the outcome you want, how you want to leave the person feeling. But also, are there any tips or tricks to actually appear stable and confident when you're not? I mean, look, first of all, I think Francesca, nobody is ever steady, confident and able all the time, which is why I always tell people that I work with, don't wait till you're on the field to warm up. Okay, so this notion of I'm not feeling confident, or I don't think I'm going to be confident, then what do you need to do before the meeting? What do you need to tell yourself? How do you need to prepare so that you can show up as confident as possible? So that's what happens even before now, let's say you're in it. And you're feeling like, okay, how do I get through

this? I'm tired, or whatever else is going on. How do I make sure that I feel confident? Well, what does confidence mean? Confidence means that you are pretty certain things are going to be okay. So you have confidence first has to start with yourself. What are the things that you can communicate that you know what you're talking about, or that you believe in or that you want to get across? Focus particularly on what your key messages are. This is the time to try to be as concrete and succinct as possible. So less is more in terms of showing up as confident. I think the other thing is find causes so that you can study yourself, which is why I love the fact that I'm working on listening, right? Ask questions so that it gives you a chance to sort of take a pause and collect yourself before moving on, if it's that type of

situation. And then I think third, keep bringing it back to why you're doing this and state that explicitly, meaning be the anchor in the meeting. If you know that this is a meeting that is about, you know, getting the project approved, hold on to that and bring the audience back to it. Even if the river seems like it's running off course, bring it back. Look, you know, let's come back to what we're here to talk about, which is this project and the three things that we need to discuss to get it approved, right? So if you can try to stay as structured as possible, that will help you in terms of then keeping yourself steady. Yeah. You know, I want to shift directions just a tiny bit. And I've been saving this question to ask you, Muriel.

One of the things I struggle with is whipping up the celebratory vibes, you know, the balloon drops that are kind of, you know, who doesn't love a balloon, but, but it's not something I even think about that much. It's not how I came up in work. I came up in newsrooms where, you know, you were lucky to have a job and no one, no one was sending you thank you grams. So, but I think it's a really important part of our culture here. And so, and how do I, help me get better at this, please. How do I do it in a way that's appropriate and authentic?

And I can say that I do feel gratitude so much of the time and I'm not great at expressing it. Yeah, I think that as work actually has gotten increasingly more demanding, and there are even more aspirational goals and audacious goals that are being put on organization on people. You know, my sense and what I tell my clients is, the greater the goal, the greater the aspiration, the greater the stretch you're putting on individuals and expecting of individuals, the more radical the appreciation needs to be. And so the authenticity part of it, Amy B, actually, what I would encourage you to do is not so much look at the authenticity of the action of how you show appreciation, but start with the authenticity of the intent, right? So how authentic is my appreciation for what the individual did? Where is my gratitude coming from?

Why am I appreciative? And it may not be for the same reason that they expect me to be appreciative, but let me have some authentic appreciation. Then I can move to action. And for the action in terms of how you do it, I do think that there's wiggle room to figure out a way to do it in a way that's comfortable for you, right? I personally am not going to walk in with 100 balloons, right? But I feel very comfortable sending those one on one emails, sending the text, hey, thank you. I appreciate you sending the email to everybody saying I just want to applaud this person sending a gift. There is no one way. I think really, the whole point is doing something showing it verbally through actions through whatnot, in a way that's comfortable for

you. But I would definitely say start with the authenticity part starts with the intent, because if you show appreciation, but the intent is not authentic, it's going to smell inauthentic. Right. That's the worst. Yeah. Like even if you, if you feel the appreciation and don't show it, obviously that's not great. But if you show it and actually don't feel it, like we've all been in there, we're like, oh, thanks for the award or whatever. When they actually don't. I want to continue on this theme of motivation in one second, but I want to tell you Amy B because you don't give a lot of, like, you don't show up through the pumping your arms

through the office saying we did it. When you do say something complimentary or celebratory, it has such resonance. And I said, I've told you this before, but like when you, you know, sort of land a compliment, look me right in the eye and say, you're good at this. It means so much. And I think to Muriel's point, you have to find the style that's right for you. And it will land with people if you really feel it. Because I'm going to believe those things you say about me. Well, but you know what, having received the faux compliment, yeah. And finding it rattles me. Yeah. It makes me think, Oh, I really must have sucked. Yes, exactly. Right. It does the exact opposite. Exactly. But you know, so so let me just say

something, though, right? Like, I think this is getting a little deeper than I thought we would. I think that in order to be able to communicate appreciation, and to communicate gratitude to others, authentically, one needs to be able to have the capacity to receive it as well. And so, so part of the practice is in receiving it. Yeah. You know, I had a client who asked me the other day, like, Oh, so what should I do? Should I do? I said, what about just a simple thank you? Right. Like you don't have to do what, why don't you just call that employee up and say, hey, I really want to thank you for going the extra mile and what you did. That's it. What does the future hold for business? Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities.

Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at work. On this theme of motivation, though, I do want to ask, Muriel, when you're trying to get people on board with a decision or a message, and you're finding that they're not getting it, right? And you need that patience. We talked a little bit about this before, but like, where, how do you tap into that motivation of like, I need to stick with this, you know, and I know, I liked what you were saying about checking in, but is there anything else to sort of internally

tap into when you need that patience and they're just not getting it. Yeah. I mean, I think a place to start is to even recognize why you're not patient. I mean, why do we get impatient? We get impatient because we think we should be at point B and we're still at point A. The reality is we're at point A. So like getting upset that we're not at point B, which is what impatience is, isn't really going to do anything. You know, it's not going to make it move any faster. And so you've got to identify why you're impatient and what can you do about it in that moment. If there's something you can do

about it, great. If there's nothing you can do about it, then you need to stick with where you are, which is where your audience is. If they're not getting it, you have to meet them where they are. That's a key piece of communicating effectively. You have to start and be with people where they are. You cannot run 10 miles ahead and expect them to hear you and understand you. You're too far away. So part of it, while your agenda might be 10 miles ahead, while the final point might be 10 miles ahead, they're still at mile one, you've got to be right there and saying, okay, let me break it down to you, right? So when you're at a place where somebody is not moving forward, in terms of the thought pattern, or what you're trying to communicate, a couple of things you

can do. Number one is you take a couple steps back. You take a couple steps back, say, you know what, let me go back to sort of the assumptions that we use as we talk through this, or let me pull back big picture, which is what we call framing something, reframe the message. So those are two steps you can take. You can also say, you know, I feel like I'm explaining this in a way, but I'm not sure if it's quite landing. What concerns do you have? What questions do you have? What is it that you're hearing from me?

So that you can then course correct. Yeah, I like that. Let me ask you another question about one of the challenges I see people struggle with a lot, and I do myself as well, which is that when you actually don't want to deliver the message because you have some emotional baggage around it or the concern about how they're going to respond, twist the message. Like sometimes I might need to send like a three line email and it takes me an hour to write it because of all the emotional, like I'm sort of dictating what their response might be and trying to negotiate with them. How do you sort of cut through all that to get right to what you want to say?

Yeah, that can be very difficult. And again, the place to start is even realizing that you have all these emotions to begin with, because a lot of times, I know for me, I might not realize it. I'm just sitting there looking at my computer, like I need to write this email, and I write it and delete it 10 times, and it's not coming out. And then that's a sign, right? So in that moment, you also have to recognize that emotions are emotions. They are feelings because of the story we're telling ourself about this message, and the story we're telling ourself about how people are going to react to this message. And by the way, that story that we're telling ourselves about how people are going to react to that message is based on some past experience either that we had with them or that

we had in terms of a message being delivered so this is how the story gets big because there's all these stories packed into it so what you want to do in those moments is actually recognize those things and separate it out and go back to, you're hearing a consistent theme from me here, go back to the outcome. Why do you need to send this message? What is the purpose behind the message, right? Why do I need to deliver this message right now to these people? And it's not to dismiss how you feel about it. It's to really focus on the outcome, rather than the story that is wrapped up, as you're trying to move through that piece of communication. All right. And if you're having a really difficult time, this is when you need

to phone a friend, you know, call a friend being like, look, you know, kick the tire on this. Like, am I overdoing it here? Check my reality here. And if they're like, yeah, don't do that, then you at least have something outside of yourself to do a reality check. Yeah. I have an email writing buddy. When I'm feeling like this isn't making sense or I think it's going to annoy the other person,

I'll send it to her. I say, and it's sometimes just like, take out this word. And you realize, I'm like, oh, that was the emotional word. That was the one that I was trying to stick it to them without really sticking it to them. Yeah. Well, so here's where I would phone you, Muriel, my friend. Phone me anytime, Amy B. What happens when you're called on to deliver a message that you just don't believe in? Yeah, those are always hard. You know, it depends on the message, right?

And this is when you have to like be really honest with yourself. If it is a message that really just goes against the grain of your core value system, or even your integrity? Is this a moment in life where you need to draw the line, knowing that there may be consequences to making that decision? Okay. Then there's the, okay, I can do it. I just don't believe in it. I'm not aligned with it. This is not what I would do. I think there's a couple of things that need to happen. I think there's always room to negotiate the message. If you can negotiate the message with whoever's asking you to deliver it, try to negotiate the message. If they still are like, no, this is it, then you've got to find a way to voice it, A, in your own words, in a way that reflects what your own values are.

So let me put in an example because that makes it more concrete. Let's say it's something that impacts people in your organization that you have to deliver. The way that you convey that, you can convey that same message around the impact on people, but do it with compassion. Do it with an acknowledgement of how it might be received so that you're holding the and. You're holding the message and your own values at the same time. Yeah. And I have to say my reaction to that advice is that sounds exhausting. And yet it's also the responsibility that we take on when we accept these jobs. Absolutely. It's exhausting. That's what's causing the stress, you know, it's

the tension. But if I've learned anything, you know, throughout my career and working with leaders is that leadership is all about tension. The role is holding the tension. Yeah. Let me ask you, Mira, about when can you be transparent about that? And not that you necessarily disagree with the message, obviously you don't want to say that, but let's say you're tired, you're under a lot of stress. Is it okay to say that when you're delivering the message or does that come off as sort of unleaderly? You know, I hate to answer it this way, but I think it depends, right? How much you divulge around, like how you're feeling about it, and where it might be causing you some angst or some stress really depends. And it doesn't, here's the thing. I don't necessarily think it should depend on like you, right? As a leader, I don't think it really depends on like, is it going to make it easier for me if I share how I'm feeling that I'm feeling tired, or I'm feeling stressed, or I'm feeling this? I actually think the responsibility is how do you deliver this message in a way that shows

good stewardship around the people that you're delivering it to? You know, for some people, it will make things worse for them to hear that their leader is like stressed out or doesn't agree or is tired. And for others, it'll actually help humanize it. It'll make it better. There's no right or wrong. I think it really depends on how do you think it's going to impact folks on the other side? And if it's going to exacerbate the situation, don't do it. If it's going to enhance their experience and hearing that message, and it's going to help them hear the message with a little more ease, then do it. Now, what's great is if you are actually making a choice about that, because then what it shows is you have a range. Most of us are not making choices, right? We're either TMI, or like not

saying anything. But you have a choice, make the choice based on how do you want them to feel? I love that. Well, I think I know how you're going to answer this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Because I've been here, you know, sometimes delivering a tough message, having a difficult conversation is a lot easier if you don't have to face the person. So what if you are just tapped out and it would be so much easier to deliver the message on email? Just give yourself a little bit of a break. Should you do it? Is that just too easy? Don't take the easy way out? Should you be prioritizing the feelings of the person you're communicating with? How do we think about that? I mean, I think that this definitely goes back to impact. This question of how we define what's easy, what may seem easy in

the short term, and what may seem easy to me, may not necessarily be generating ease. And so what's the goal here? And if the priority is, I want this conversation, this exchange to be done in the most transparent way that honors the fact that this person is a human and needs to hear it straight from me, from the source, then you talk to them. If it's okay for this to be transactional, which there are definitely things that can just be transactional, then you do email. So it depends on the level of depth and meaning and understanding. And I think the level of connection that you want to reinforce and sustain with the others, communication is a vehicle for relationships. And so I think at the end of the day, you have to look at what is the outcome? What is it that I'm trying to create from

a relational standpoint with those people, or with this person. And based on that, you then decide what the mode of communication is going to be. Yeah. I mean, I feel like what I'm hearing you say is you're prioritizing their comfort, their needs over your own. And look, I think this is why you have to find moments outside of communicating to do things for yourself, right? You know, don't look for your self care through sending emails. That's not where it's going to happen. If you're taking care of yourself outside of these difficult moments, right, those difficult moments will feel less difficult. What would self care look like in a situation like this? Like you have to give this difficult message. Take the five minutes, get off of whatever social you're on for five minutes and say, I'm actually going to like prepare myself so that I can hold myself together as much as possible and prioritize this person

and how they feel at this time. There's a difference between taking the easy way out or finding the easy way and doing things with ease. Two different things. Totally. Taking the easy way out is outside of ourselves. I'm going to send the email because that's the easier, faster, quicker. I don't have to deal with the way they react right in front of me. That way it doesn't feel messy even though it still is you know it's all an illusion that's the easy it's outside of ourselves it's the action is easy then there's the doing it with ease the doing it with ease is no

matter how they react I'm okay because I know that this is a message that I already understood that they may not like it and I'm trying the best that I can. And I took them into consideration as I delivered the message. And so to me, the goal is like, can you communicate in difficult situations, but do it with an inner ease, even though the external is a hot mess. Muriel, thank you so much for coming on this event with us. Really, it's been such a helpful conversation. I'm going to go back and listen to it because there are things that you said I need to write down. Thank you. Always such a pleasure talking to both of you. And thank you to everyone who also participated in this with us. That's our show. I'm Amy Gallo. I'm Amy Bernstein. HBR has more podcasts like Coaching Real Leaders to help you manage yourself, your team,

and your organization. Find them at hbr.org slash podcasts or search HBR in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Women at Work's editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoke, Tina Tobey-Mack, Rob Eckhart, Erica Truxler, Ian Fox, and Hannah Bates. Robin Moore composed this theme music. Get in touch with me and Amy G by emailing womenatwork at hbr.org.