Women at Work - Is Entrepreneurship Right for Me? (from New Here)

Episode Date: November 30, 2023

It’s a question that so many of us are grappling with. Should I quit corporate life and pursue my passion project? Today in this episode from our colleagues at New Here—HBR's podcast for young professionals—we’ll help you think through the possibilities and trade-offs, as we learn from one woman’s experiences leaving corporate life to build her own business. You’ll learn which of her fears were warranted, how she battled loneliness, managed her money, and whether or not she is actually happier working for herself.

Over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. Hello, everyone. Amy B. and I are here with the host of HBR's new podcast, New Here. She's Eleni Mata. Hello. Hi. How are you guys? Hey, Eleni. So tell our listeners about New Here. What have you covered this first season? So New Here is an early career podcast. We help anyone tackling something for the first time at their job, whether they're going into their first full-time job after graduating or starting a new job after a break. Tell me, Eleni, because you and I talked months ago about

what it was going to be like to host a podcast. How has it been different than what you expected? So I've said this before to the both of you. I'm an actor, like stage trained actor. So here I had to adapt it to a more conversational piece instead of this like dramatic, loud, trying to reach all everyone in the room. Do not project into the mic. Not project in the mic. I liked it. It was hard, though. It is hard. It is hard. As one of our guests recently said to Amy B., do you know how hard it is

to make a podcast? We do know. Yeah. Yeah. We've been told. There are two of your episodes from the season that I really like.

One was with our friend Muriel Magnum Wilkins about what to do if you don't feel motivated at work. As always, she just drops the pearls of wisdom. And I also, of course, was drawn to the Bad Bosses episode. Oh, of course. That's a topic I love. What else have you covered?

We've covered how to make a good first impression in your job interview, where we get a perspective from an actor and how they make a good first impression in like a short amount of time. We cover how to make the case for your first raise and how that's a long game conversation and not just this one time and then you're done. And then one of my favorites is one of our first ones, which is our boundaries episode. How do you one establish what your own boundaries are and how do you communicate that with the people that you're working with?

Yeah, that is a topic I am very interested in. We're actually going to do an essentials episode, a Women at Work essentials episode about that. Yes, I'm so excited. I have to say, I was surprised that you invited your therapist to join you in conversation. Yeah, that was a kind of a wild card of throwing her in as a guest idea. Like, how would you feel if I brought in my therapist? But I thought it was a cool way to introduce the show. One, to showcase I wasn't afraid to talk about mental health in this sort of capacity. Oh, you went right there. Yeah, and I think if we just start here,

it normalizes the conversation that this is a real thing. It's so important to know you're not alone. Exactly. We're going to play the show's season finale, which is called Is Entrepreneurship Right for Me? As in, is quitting your full-time job and working for yourself right for you? Yes.

The first voice you'll hear is not me, but Gemma Spegg, who's the guest, and she is the host of the podcast Psychology of Your 20s. She took the leap of quitting her full-time job to focus on her show. So I graduated back in 2021 and was like, I'm going to be a consultant. Got this great job at the time. It was my dream

job. Was super excited and was there for about a year and a half. This is Gemma Spegg, the creator and host of the hit podcast, The Psychology of Your Twenties. Gemma had been a consultant, but when we talked to her, she had just quit that job to focus on her passion project, making her podcast. We talked to her as she started her first full day as a podcaster, which is a job title she hadn't anticipated for herself. The first, like, year and a half, I really didn't have any listeners. I didn't really have any external reinforcement.

But I think that that made me love it even more. And as things got more popular and suddenly I had so many listeners, it was actually really overwhelming. I didn't really know how to cope because I was like, I'm just this like small town girl who's just like, you know, lives in Australia. And suddenly all these businesses and all these people are reaching out to me. For Gemma, juggling a full-time job and a growing podcast was just too much. But leaving her nine to five life behind to work for herself carried real financial risks.

And it also was a huge change in the way that she was living and working. What if she left the office behind only to end up broke and less happy? You quit, which is brave as hell. Are you scared of anything? Oh my gosh, yes. Welcome to New Here. Honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work. I'm Eleni Manta.

This week, we wrap up our first season with a question that so many of us are grappling with. Should I quit the corporate life that may not feel right for me and pursue my passion project? So some people can take this kind of risk, especially if you don't have a lot of financial responsibilities. But you still may be worried about stability and what your future is going to look like with less of a roadmap. There's a whole list of questions and uncertainties you might need to consider before making that huge decision,

which is why we wanted to hear about it from Gemma as she began her journey. We talked to her way back in May, literally on the first day she started working for herself. She told us how she made the decision to leave her job and how she planned for her transition, including dealing with some real fears about how she would pay her bills and battle loneliness. Then we went back to Gemma five months after she started working for herself because we wanted to find out which of her fears were warranted, how she created new structures for herself, and if she is really happier on her own.

One more thing. Keep in mind that this is just one person's story. Taking the corporate versus entrepreneurship route is a personal decision. Today, our goal is to help you think through the possibilities and trade-offs as we learn from Gemma's experiences. Okay, let's dive in with Gemma and hear more about what her corporate job was like and why she wanted to leave. If you've worked in consulting, people out there listening or in the world, you'll know that like nine to five is not your hours like I don't like if I worked nine to five like that was a really good day so I was like essentially squeezing in this side project this passion that I had in those like spare hours of my day when I was exhausted when I would really prefer to go and see my friends or just do something chill like watch tv and it was a lot of work but it was I think like a labor of love

I can empathize with that so like full disclosure yeah um I also have like a like a passion project on the side other than like work yeah I'm a musician. Like I, I compose music. I arrange music. I do it for myself and I do it for others. Like I love music. And I read this tweet that's like, if you can put in nine to five, then you can put in your five to 10 for a side hustle. And it's like, you know, yes, but like yes but like damn I'm that's a lot of working in one day like when am I gonna actually chill but I it's definitely a labor of love because you're like this is a lot of work but I really like doing it so I wonder like when did that thought start to leave working for somebody else to go work for yourself?

Honestly, like only like the start of the year. So what is it now? Of this year. Of this year. Yeah. Wow. I fully was like, I was going for promotions at my old job. I was like investing in the culture. And I did love the community at my old job. Like It was quite sad to leave, but I was like, I'm going to make it to manager, then I'm going to be a director, and then I'm going to be a principal at this firm. And this podcast thing will just follow along with me. And I have to give a shout out. I think I was very lucky where I had an agent from the US

reach out to me. Her name's Shelby. I didn't even know that an agent for a podcaster was a thing. And she really was someone who understands the industry, really believed in me. And she was really like, no, what you have here is really special. And this can be something really big. I'm going to show you where everything is. And I'm going to show you how the ropes work. And I started working with her in like October last year and then she was efficient. By like January, she kind of convinced me that like I could quit. Like this could be my full time job.

So I have a few more questions about like your this like newness of being out of your job like how was your first day of freedom of not going in and following that structure yeah it was a little bit lonely actually um and I also it was so funny I had a meeting yesterday and I I was like super late to it because I didn't put in my calendar because I I'm like used to having things on teams and it like pops up being like you have a meeting in 15 minutes does it do that on your computer where it's like yeah yeah it's like every five minutes it'll remind me. Yeah, literally. And I was like, oh, I need to start using Google Calendar because my work life is now also my personal life

and they're not separate. I need to organize this as one. Because previously it was like, yes, no, sorry, friend, or sorry, person, I cannot meet with you during the hours of 9 to 5 because I am working. And now it's like, oh, I can meet with you during the hours of nine to five because I am working and now it's like oh I can meet with you during those hours but suddenly I have to remember that I am doing that like I'm not just sitting down for this discrete period just to you know like work and not be distracted yeah wow that's so oh yeah that'll be tough that'll be tough. That'll be interesting. And it was before, like it was before,

but I think more from somewhat of a deficit. Like it was more that I was giving up on, like a big motivator for me for quitting was the fact that I didn't have any work-life balance. So it's interesting that I said to you, like my first day was kind of lonely when I was also very lonely when I was working full-time and doing the show on the side because I like didn't have any time to see my friends I really yeah I would I would make so many sacrifices of being like I'm sorry I can't hang out I'm gonna have to I was cancelling all the time like

god bless my friends for putting up with me but like every second thing I'd be like I gotta I got an episode due I got a meeting I gotta write um so I think that is one of those things where it has already intersected with my personal life a little bit but and also I've become like friends with people in the industry but I'm interested to see whether this like consumes my entire identity and whether it like consumes like my entire life and I have a feeling it might yeah I feel that I have that same fear my brother was talking to me about it too that he's like I'm afraid of doing something that I love full-time and then it becomes something that I hate because I'm doing it full-time yeah And it's interesting that you say that because I do think that the idea that it could become something that has just worked for me is scary. But I don't think that that is a fear that

should hold me back. I think we hear a lot more about people who are disappointed that they work their nine to five to the day they die than people who say they're disappointed because they followed their dream. Yeah. So I'm so curious because you have like an episode about talking about the psychology of the nine to five. And now it's not a nine to five, it may be an extended hour. How do you think you will be affected by that change like there's so many things that are that are going to affect that it's going to be like the schedule change it's going to be you making decisions for yourself okay i'm going to answer like this question at a surface level about like what's going to change about my day-to- I think firstly, like the increased flexibility is going to be

so good for my mental health. Obviously, I think that I've already seen that I'm working extended hours, probably longer than I do normally work at my nine to five, but not longer than I worked when I was working my nine to five and I was working doing this podcast, right? Like it's still a win. But the thing is that it just provides a lot of flexibility to be like, okay, I want to go for a walk in the middle of the day. I never used to be able to do that. I never used to be able to say, I'm going to take like two hours and go for like a hike. And I know that I can come back at like five and I can just work an extra two hours till seven or till eight to make up for that. And that's my decision. And that flexibility I think is so important, but it exists

on this weird spectrum of like giving up structure, right? So it's like, there's a balancing system here because when you have too much flexibility, your consistency goes out the window. It's a lot harder to motivate yourself. Things can kind of run away from you. But of course, when you have too much flexibility, your consistency goes out the window. It's a lot harder to motivate yourself. Things can kind of run away from you. But of course, when you have too much structure, you don't have enough creative freedom. You don't have enough time to kind of balance your life and to focus on your mental health and to focus on the things that are important to you. So structure was one of the things that I was most scared of giving up actually. It's really nice to have a place to go every day, go to an office, you know everyone there, they know you, they become your friends, you spend like 10 hours a day with them, you have breakfast, lunch, sometimes even dinner

with them. At least at my work, that's kind of what it was like. So giving up that structure of having someone to tell me what I need to do, having someone tell me if I'm meeting their expectations or not, having people to be around all the time, having community, giving that up is going to be difficult. So I wonder, I think that's the thing that's going to impact my overall psychological well-being is that adjustment to spending more time alone and spending more time isolated. That's my biggest concern. Yeah, that's real.

I didn't even think about the lack of structure or the structure that you'd be losing in that. But I think that's a comfort zone for sure because you've been told what to do this entire time and even like how to do it and now you have this you Gemma have the freedom to create your own structure which is really freaking cool yeah Eleni what's like your dream there like when do you have like a timeline for when you'd like to do music full time? That's a really good question.

I want to know. That's a really good question. I don't know. I guess nobody has asked me that. Thank you, Gemma. Like nobody's asked me that before. Well, it's a good thing to think about. Well, I hope you think about it.

I guess I never thought about the timeline because I have a little girl, she's two years old. So I'm thinking more about security and benefits and health insurance, which like, that's a very Western way to think. So, and that, those are my fears. Those fears kind of bring me back. So I, I'm curious for you, like you've done it, like you quit, which is brave as hell. Like, good for you. Congratulations.

Are you scared of anything? Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. And also I, I, I firstly want to acknowledge what you've said. Like, like I'm very privileged. Like, I live in Australia, right? And we're all set here. There is a few other safety nets that could catch me before I fell. That's a big part, not to make it political, but like, that's a big part of it, right? Like, I can't imagine doing this in the US where I had to pay

for health insurance. Like, I don't pay for health insurance here it's free like yeah that that would be so scary to me um and also I don't have children and obviously that changes the whole dynamic so sometimes I I do feel like I need to add a caveat instead of like sitting here and being like everyone can quit their full-time job I don't think that's what I'm trying to say like I think that I it's just like a nice piece of inspiration to be like okay it can be done not that it necessarily has to be done um but also yeah I'm terrified I'm really terrified like what are you afraid of like um I'll get vulnerable like of it all ending of it all coming crashing down. The numbers start dropping and suddenly there's no one again.

And I've gotten used to this level of praise and this level of interaction and this level of listenership and it will be a really sharp drop. Coming up after the break, we'll look at the aftermath of Gemma's decision to quit. What actually happens when your passion project becomes your full-time job? Be right back. What does the future hold for business?

Can someone please invent a crystal ball? Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one platform. With real-time insights and forecasting, you're able to peer into the future and seize new opportunities. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com slash women at work. That's netsuite.com slash women at Work. power, then you should listen to TED Business, hosted by Columbia Business School professor Madhupe Akinnola. The show features TED Talks about everything from setting smart goals to the latest on DEI in business, followed up with a mini lesson from Madhupe on how to apply these lessons in your own life. Listen to TED Business wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so we talked about the reasons Gemma left her job,

what she was worried about, and we also heard all the excitement she was feeling as she started out on her own self-employment journey. We waited five months, and then we called her back to see how everything was going. And unfortunately for Gemma, since there's a huge time difference between the U.S. and Australia, she had to get up at 5.30 a.m. to talk to us. So we appreciate her. So good to see you. Likewise. That was my, like, you, when you have those alarms, I'm like, this is the final alarm.

This is you have to wake up. Yeah, that was it for this morning. It was like out of bed. But luckily, I didn't even need it. So we get together. Thank you for waking up so early and talking to us. I really appreciate it. I'm so excited to talk to you.

So how has the past couple of months been like for you? Oh my goodness. A bit of a roller coaster, which I'm sure we'll get into. Overall, overall positive outcome. I'm feeling amazing, doing amazing. I cannot envision myself going back to my nine to five job. Yeah, I was like, I just can't imagine that happening. So what about this new lifestyle, I guess, or this new structure do you like the most? I think the main one, which everyone points out,

is the flexibility. It's so incredibly freeing to not have to live within the constraints of the hours of nine to five. And now it's like, okay, I am in charge of how much I work and what I produce and the output. So I can always just work harder during the week or work harder for a couple of weeks or a couple of months to give myself that time off. And like an example is right now I'm in a bit of a crunch period because I'm coming to the US in November. I don't want to have to do too much recording or any recording whilst I'm over there. So let me just do an extra episode a week, bank them for when I go overseas and I essentially get an extra month off, which I think is so incredibly liberating and I'm very grateful to have that kind of flexibility in my life.

Yeah. I think we talked about in the last time is this structure that you would have in your nine to five where you're working for somebody else. The structure is set up for you. And now that you're working for yourself, you have to create your own structure. How has that been like to create this new time stamping for you throughout the day? Are you still figuring out what works or have you already figured it out? Yeah, it's interesting because that was the one thing I was like, oh, I think I might struggle with this. I think the main thing that I've realized is that every

day is going to look really different. You know, right now I'm talking to you guys. It's like 5.30 a.m. That's not typical. And then like another day, you know, I have a meeting, you know, I have meetings throughout the day, but then the evening's free, like all of these kind of different things crop up. So how I more think about it is timestamping the week and being like, there are specific tasks that need to be done each week. And I've realized that certain tasks work best on a particular day. So with my podcast, I release on Tuesdays and Fridays. So writing episodes on like Wednesdays and Thursdays works best for me because then I give myself like Friday morning to record next week's episode or Sunday evening to record the next week's episodes. So I think that's like the main thing. I really

struggled with it at first. I think also that I went a little bit ham, like I went that's like the main thing I really struggled with it at first I think also that I went a little bit ham like I went a bit to the extreme because something oh how well something I realized I think is that no one's going to care about your work as much as you do so there you know what I mean like yeah no one's gonna be like in your ear being like work harder work harder work harder like you have to achieve this you have to achieve this you're the only one who's really going to do that for yourself and I think when I first like started working for myself there was like a period of like a month where I was like I need to be working every single day excessively to the max in order to like make this worth it I guess I don't necessarily think that was like a terrible thing.

Definitely wasn't sustainable though, I think in any facet of life to be doing that. So I'm really interested in the community aspect. So like when you go into work, you have your people that sit around you and your desk that you talk to and you have people to kind of bounce ideas off of. And now that you're working for yourself, like what does that equivalent look like for you now? Like, is there an equivalent?

Actually, there is. It was quite lonely, like up until only probably a couple of months ago. Also, just the nature of, you know, the thing that I do now is that it's a very solitary activity. You can't really have someone sitting next to you having a chat while you're trying to record 40-minute, hour-long episodes. So I don't really see anyone throughout the day. met these two girls who run a podcast called Two Broke Chicks who are incredible and we went out for lunch and we sat down and we were chatting we're chatting we're chatting and then one of them just goes to me can I ask you a question and I was like yeah absolutely and she was like are you just incredibly lonely at the moment and I was like yeah I totally am and she was like we we are as well we're like wow yeah and they're like we are as well and they're like and I was like yeah I totally am and she was like we we are as well we're like wow yeah and they're like we are as well and they're like and I was like why don't we get an office space and literally between having that conversation we had an office space within a week someone was

like yeah someone was just like subletting their office for like two days a week and so we just were like let's do it we invited a bunch of other creators who work in the podcasting space who we thought might benefit from it. And now we have our own little office and it's so lovely. It's like kind of all women in their like twenties and thirties working in this kind of audio sphere of entertainment. And we get to like share frustrating things. And you you know when our mics don't work and when the reaction to an episode has been bad or when an ad partner is like being difficult so it's really amazing it's like something I was really excited to talk to you about that's really cool and how quickly that was set up now I'm curious of like what parts of your former working life have you brought

with you in your current working life? One I've noticed is just having like this office space. Is there anything else that you've also borrowed? Honestly, on the spot, not much else. Not much else. No, it's interesting. Like I don't really use LinkedIn as much anymore I'm like I'm kind of like tapped out of that kind of professional space in the traditional sense and the work I'm doing is always work that I want to do and I think what was the main reason that I I think always kind of struggled with working in a corporate space was I would put in all these hours all this effort I would sacrifice time with friends, time with family, time to myself. It just felt like, oh my goodness, why am I putting

in all this time to a goal, a dream, a vision that I don't necessarily believe in? And now it's this beautiful thing where it's like, well, every single hour feels like it's well spent. Yeah. And I think that ties into like the work-life balance is you are enjoying what you're doing, but I wonder if like work-life balance still exists if you love what you're doing. This is so interesting because I was talking to my partner about this the other day and his parents were like, oh, does Gemma work the same hours as you and he is a solicitor and they're like does he work this does she work the same hours as you and he was like oh probably more because she's always on the clock almost you know especially like with the social media element as well nowadays

um and it like really made me realize I was like oh is that like how people see me operating like do I actually not have work, is that like how people see me operating? Like, do I actually not have work-life balance? Like, am I on my phone too much? Am I checking my emails too much? But I think also he was right in that it's a lot easier to do overtime when you love something, especially since the podcast for me used to be a hobby, right? It used to be what I would do in my free time. It used to be, and it still is the thing that I greatly, greatly enjoy as an emotional creative outlet. So I still want to do that all the time. It's just about being like, no, this is also a job now. This is also work. So you can do it all the time, but it's not going to really leave a

lot of space for other things. So now it's about's about being like okay let's make sure we have hard cutoffs I try and protect my weekends that was a big thing yeah that's your boundary oh I'm curious what your boundaries are so not working on weekends not working on weekends um another one that I'm trying to do is not checking emails or social media to do with the podcast first thing in the morning um there's like I think also an element of that is maybe this is like yeah so not working on weekends not checking my phone my god I'm realizing I have no boundaries that's literally it that's literally it change that's literally it it you're really like illuminating perhaps what is a problem here i'm like i have two boundaries and they are very loose

we it's it's we're human we can adapt we can change this that's all yeah so that leads me to another question of like, do you still love this job even now that it's become your full time? It's now a job. It's not a side hustle. It's not a hobby. It's a job. Do you still love it? Someone said this to me the other day and I loved it. They were like, when you take your hobby and make it your career, the only people who can do that are the people who love their hobby like 150%.

Because making it your job is going to rub you off that 50%. It's going to make you love it 50% less. So if you still want to love it at 100%, you've got to really freaking love it. And I totally agree with that. Because I think I used to love it like 150% and now I love it at 100% you've got to really freaking love it and I totally agree with that because I think I used to love it like 150% and now I love it like 100% like wow I still absolutely adore it and I would not be doing anything else my like sense of purpose is so profound I still feel like a real commitment to it I still enjoy every part of the process. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you about money and like the money component about working for yourself. How are you handling the financial aspect now? What does that look like? I think it's a bit more stressful. It's very stressful.

Okay. Wow. Which maybe will surprise people. I don't know, but I'm sure it won't. Like it's a bit more stressful it's very stressful okay um which i'm maybe will surprise people i don't know but i'm sure it won't like it's a bit stressful because you don't have that long-term financial security that i think a full-time job often gives you but what i'm realizing is that you know a lot of my friends have been recently laid off um especially like in the tech space over here so So, and you know, they've managed to find new jobs. It's kind of like, it's not like it's really safe anywhere. You know what I mean? I still think it's worth the risk to do that, but it's definitely is like a long-term financial stability thing where I'm like, okay, I am stressing about where I will be

in three years. And you know, in in three years if I'm still doing this, I would have been out of the traditional workplace for three years. So what if I do need to find another job? Or thinking about things like, you know, do I go and rent a bigger house or rent a bigger apartment with the income I have now, but what if I don't have that income in eight months or do I buy a house and you know that's a huge thing but it's like what if I can't pay the mortgage in

five years because I bought this house when I was making steady income from this thing and now I don't have that income so I think it is like the fickleness sometimes of this industry. And I literally just recently got a financial advisor. Nice. Yeah. It's also just things like around taxes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I tried to do it myself. But all my income is, you know, foreign income from the US. Oh, that is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely confusing to do on your own. Yeah. Or, you know, you get like these tiny little micro payments from like $3 from people like donating to your Patreon. So it's just like all these tiny little transactions that need to be accounted for so that I don't commit tax fraud because I would like to not go to prison. So it's just like a bit of a learning process. So it is actually a big tip if you're thinking about quitting your 9 to 5, get an accountant if you don't already have one or a financial advisor or just anyone.

I have a financial advisor too. I haven't talked to him in a while, but maybe I should. Maybe you should. Maybe I should. So how has your sense of self changed since you left working for somebody else yeah I think the big one is I and maybe this isn't a positive but I have a lot more imposter syndrome really for myself yeah 100% which sounds like so counterintuitive yeah well I think it's this thing it's like you further into the belly of the beast right so you have more things to doubt.

So that's kind of why I feel that way because I'm like, oh, there's more. You know, previously I could kind of detach myself and be like, oh, you know, this is my real job. And this is just like my hobby. This is my side hustle. Like, I don't care if people don't think I belong here. Like, I don't care if it isn't like amazing every single time because it's just fun and now it's like oh you best believe that I care because this is not just a hobby it's also how I pay my bills it's also a massive source of my identity

and so yeah I think it is a little bit difficult and I often I'm like what am I doing here the social comparison is insane I'm really trying to work on it not so much like a competitive sense but more of like oh my god I'm not doing as much as they're doing I should be doing more oh like why yeah it's like oh you know though that episode's really amazing how come I didn't think about that oh because I'm not meant to be here I'm sure this is a mistake yeah I'm so like wrapped on this imposter syndrome thing because I think it's really real and I appreciate you for being honest about it when you do feel like you start to compare yourself to other people that are doing the same thing that you're doing what has helped you kind of get yourself out of that headspace and bring yourself back to this core of I'm Gemma and I'm

really doing the damn thing? So I just think about it in the sense of the times that I haven't had an audience or will not have an audience. So I think about it before anyone listened and how fulfilling it was and that I would still be doing this even if there was no one out there who really cared about it and then I think about what it would be like what it's going to be like in 50 years when podcasts are replaced by I don't know nanobots in our brain telling us secret messages. Like I think about it in 50 years and when, you know, I'm sure the podcast will no longer be running. And I think about whether I'll be proud of the content that I put out because I won't remember, I think,

like how many downloads each episode got or X, Y, and Z. Like what I will remember is like, oh, was this something that I was really proud to put out? And was this something that I would listen to? I also, sorry, one final thing is just like, maybe this something that I was really proud to put out and was this something that I would listen to yeah I also sorry one final thing is just like maybe this is an Australian thing but believe fully in the idea of staying in your own lane it's like oh they stay in their own lane they just do their own thing they're just going down the freeway at their at their speed so I think the social comparison thing really was like getting to my head. So it was like, all right, let's mute, unfollow, remove these people that make you feel like you're not doing enough. And if you stay in your own lane, just keep pretending that there's no one else on the freeway. There's no one else on the highway. You're just going your own speed. You know, what speed would you be going on the freeway if you didn't know how fast the other cars were going? And's kind of like go that speed do you know what i mean yeah i like that and i like this advice of unfollowing people that make

you that start to warp the way that you're seeing yourself um because one advice that i've been getting and even with like the networking episode that we just did is follow these people who inspire you and that are doing the work that you want to do and watch how they're doing it and I'm in that same boat if it's hard to look at them and be like oh why can't I do something like that I've been trying to change the narrative in my head of like wow I really liked how they did that I wonder how I could do that in a different or in like my own way and just really utilize them as inspiration. That's actually really interesting because I hadn't thought of that.

This is such an exciting conversation because like I said, this is something that goes through my head all the time. I'm just curious now that you have dipped your toes in both worlds. What would you say to anyone who is thinking of doing what you just did? Honestly, the one thing I would say is that it's 100% worth it. The risk is 100% worth it. And I can only speak from my personal experience, obviously. But I'm so glad that I went through those moments of feeling really uncomfortable and really unsure and even continue to this day to feel that way. Because the benefit and upside of that is so much more beautiful. You have all this time to do something you really love.

Is there anything that you wish you knew before starting this journey? Be prepared for days where you wish for the comfort of the nine to five um that's it's like a breakup it's like you still miss like the previous security yeah you still miss the relationship and then with time you feel better you meet new people and everything kind of falls into place. So no regrets? No regrets. No regrets. Hopefully you know where that's from. Yeah, I do know where that's from. I thought it was no regrets.

Gemma, this has been so much fun and I'm so glad to hear how everything turned out and that even through the scary parts, it's really still all fun and worth it and exciting. This was definitely the right decision for you. And it shows. Thank you so much. Eleni, I am dying to know, in talking with Gemma, what did she say about working for yourself that changed your mind about what this would be like? I wasn't surprised about the loneliness that she was feeling, but I was surprised of how quickly she found a community. She found two other podcasters and all three of them got their own space. So it was like replacing that community that she had in her corporate full-time job and she now gets to start

it here. I was surprised about the imposter syndrome though. Like I feel like when you make the decision it's so aligned to your core that like I want to focus on my side gig I feel like that takes a lot of guts to do but even then when you're in it you still feel scared and you start to compare yourself and she did mention that this show is really ingrained in her identity and once you compare your show to others it's really easy to compare yourself but I'm really i like how she thought about how what gets her out of that mindset yeah i really when i heard her say that i was like right self-doubt follows us everywhere yeah yeah you can't escape human condition so amy i bet that point resonated with you because you made that leap too you went from a full-time structured job to more of an independent existence.

Yeah. What did it make you think about? It's 20 years ago now that I actually started working for myself. I've always sort of kept more steady gigs in the mix, but I essentially run my own business like Gemma. And I mean, so much of what she said resonated, particularly about the self-doubt, no matter how long you've been doing it, no matter how much praise or work or, you know, reinforcement you get, you do always wonder, did I do the right thing? Should I be, you know, especially when most of your friends are in full-time jobs, you always think, well, you know, should I be doing that? So that really

resonated. I think the other point is like the idea that a full-time job is somehow more secure, and I'm putting secure in air quotes, is sort of a farce, right? Like working for yourself, yes, of course it's scary. When are your advertisers going to pull out? When are you going to get your next gig? All of that is nerve-wracking. But the idea that a full-time job is like never gonna go away or never gonna change is just not true yeah i also wondered about you know she said that she thought she would miss the structure of a full-time job yeah there's a lot of structure yeah working for yourself right yeah

yeah you just have to make it and she said she i mean she mentioned two boundaries that she made which is not working on weekends and not checking her phone right in the morning in regards to the podcast yeah um but she mentioned that like she does not she didn't really take much from her old corporate job with her yeah so but she did miss it sometimes i think she missed the people especially in those moments of loneliness yeah um it makes sense why you would miss that old structure because it's comfort. This conversation about structure reminds me that we did an episode back in 2021 called Keep the Challenges of Freelancing in Check, where our former co-host Emily Caulfield talked to two researchers who look at freelancing, and they talked a lot about

the practices and routines that you need to help keep yourself focused, productive, and continuing to develop as a professional. Wait, Alini, actually, I think you pitched that episode to us. I think so. I really am interested in freelancing and just the gig economy because it's a different world. Well, congratulations on the show, Eleni, and on your first full season. What happens if people want to get in touch? How do they do that? To contact us, you can email us at newhereathbr.org. Listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you like and follow us. I know I'm following.

Are you, Amy? I am. Eleni, it is so great to see you. I rarely actually get to sit in the same room with you, but it's wonderful to know that I can listen to you and your beautiful, professionally trained voice whenever I want to. Thank you.